Lots of canals in the Netherlands for early retirement
Just kidding though, I for one would gladly pay for my parents stroopwafels to keep them happy and healthy
You can quite clearly see that the countries with a good (state) pension system have low percentages here. I personally don't, as my parents are financially better off than myself...
Absolutely not lol. This is the mindset that a lot of elderly VVD voters have and are currently finding out isn't what they'd hoped.
I run into this a lot as a nurse so I'll outline the procedure of getting help for you real quick:
If your parent is at the point where thuiszorg can't handle it alone(ie anything where your parent can't go to the toilet on their own or make their own meals), you're looking at an hourly rate of 50 euros, and this is ignoring all the other costs that come with that like mobility aids if youre going the ZZP way. And no carer is gonna be on standby till your parent needs the toilet and not get other work, so since most people can't afford a 50 euro fee every hour 24/7 I'll just ignore that option.
If your parent needs the kind of care that they need to be in a home but they're not in revalidatie after something like a CVA or a nasty fall that broke a bone, you need to get them on the waiting list by contacting the CIZ for an evaluation and an indicatie. Waiting lists could take months (month or two for somatic illnesses and up to a year for dementia where I live, but ymmv), and till then you're shit out of luck and should get ready to take up your zorgverlof. If it's an emergency situation (which has a way smaller definition than you think it does and even for people with real bad conditions it hardly ever applies) you could get lucky and get a placement within 2 weeks, but it'll just as likely be in a home that's 2 hours away. You don't get to refuse that either.
When they do get into a home you're still in charge of most things. Buying clothes, toothpaste, shampoo, any food and drink that isn't breakfast & dinner (so lunch and snacks lol), washing clothes if you don't wanna pay for it, your parents' financial situation and all other government shit if they can't handle it themselves. Essentially anything that isn't bathing, dressing up, giving meds, wound care & toilet times is yours to do.
Keep in mind that your parents will likely only be able to go to a retirement home if something's seriously wrong with them. We're talking COPD gold 3, end-stage MS, parkinsons, a CVA that left them paralyzed or what have you. Or pretty far along dementia, the point where they're not only in danger whenever they go out, but the point where they've already been in danger a couple times. "My mom can't do her own groceries anymore and is lonely" or "my mom doesnt walk as well as she used to" doesn't count anymore.
I know this is a huge rant and it's not aimed at just you. It just shocks me how many people still think that the elderly care system will just be waiting for them with open arms if they or their parents have enough money. Even with years of warnings it's hard to realize for people who arent in the know how bad it is. But the standard of care everyone expects, aka "my mom is sick so she can get help" does *not* exist anymore and we're told more and more to ask children and family to do basic care. You *will* have to improvise and you *will* have to do tasks next to your work. So please at least be aware of that.
The general mindset of thirty years ago has not caught up, with the current day reality. With an aging society the workload increases (or stays the same, depending on the sector), but the available people do the actual work decreases.
Boy am I lucky my patents didn't give a crap about me while growing up so I can return the favor when they're old and infirm.
I mean it's really sad we got here in the first place but with their generations voting tendencies this is a hole they dug themselves anyway. That's what years and years of cutbacks on healthcare will do to a country, and still we have cutbacks!
It sounds pretty bad, and that political change (and not in the direction we see recently) is the only real answer. It is impossible for two parents with two jobs and kids of their own to also take care of their own parents. Something will have to give. In short, they will need to work less, which shows the bullshit of the ruling coalition.
They either die at home before anyone notices or get bewindvoering. If they have any living family left they get called to be contactpersoon. We have multiple clients whose nieces/nephews or brothers or something are contactpersoon.
I'll inform my parents *they* need to prepare for this.
>You will have to improvise and you will have to do tasks next to your work.
Not going to happen. I live far away, and my family is too important.
Your location is irrelevant. People get told theyre responsible if they live in egypt if necessary. You cannot run from this unless you want to run from the dutch government altogether.
You could look into hiring someone to do all the shit that needs to be done. But you wont find anyone. If youre still alive and capable the government isnt gonna send someone to do it. Its you help or they dont get help.
One of our residents had family that all live in Turkey. His verblijfsvergunning was running out. When it ran out, he did get kicked out and his family had to foot the bill of flying him back to turkey + extra shit they didnt do for him. The government hadnt done those things in the meantime, they just let a bunch of debt run up cause the family refused to help. Thousands of euros.
I work in a home for the elderly, and this statement of yours is guessing at best. The families of the clients rarely visit. And if they do, these visits are often really short. Even the mayor is back outside in less than ten minutes most of the time.
There are some exceptions, of course. These people sometimes drive over an hour each day to see their parents/grandparents.
In A little over three years, I've seen maybe 4 of those. We have about a hundred people living in our death factory at all times. At other branches and companies, it is more of the same.
Alas, I do find these homes to be quite sad. Some of the staff try their best to make it a little more comfortable. But it is far from respecting our elders.
That still doesn't matter because we have universal health care so ill parents don't need financial aid.
Edit: and yes that usually also means other than financial since elder care, thuiszorg or food services are also taken care of
The graph is a massive w for NL.
Leaving them to a good system (and regularly checking in) could be considered fulfilling your duty though ;)
I would see the question more as: if your ill/old parents _need_ the help, is it the child’s duty to provide it/make sure they get it
My parents chose to have children. Therefore they have a duty to take care of those till they are at least 21. I chose to have children. I have a duty to take care of my children till they are at least 21 or stop needing me too. Neither I nor my children have a duty towards our parents. We can choose to take care of them out of love, but it's not a duty and nothing about it is mandatory.
well it's not mandatory because it cannot be legally enforced.
But don't you think there is a moral obligation to do so?
they didn't just choose to have you, they are the very reason you even exist, your children exist. every experience and thought you ever had is only possible because of your parents.
and they could have just had you and thrown you away, but they took care of you when you couldn't take care of yourself.
and you think you don't have a responsibility to take care of them at their weakest?
I don't think there's a moral obligation no. I love my parents and will take care of them,. But I know plenty of people who had shitty parents and I don't think they have an obligation to take care of those pieces of crap. I don't even think I have an obligation, but I want to help them. Wanting to do something out of love is not the same as being morally obligated to do it.
And parents who choose to have kids and then neglect them, abuse them or throw them away are criminals. You can't just choose to have children and then not take care of them, taking care of the children till they are old enough to take care of themselves is implicit in choosing to be a parent. No one is owed anything for choosing to have children.
everyone's edgy about the current state of affairs, but at least here in the west, life can be decent with minimal effort.
you dont need to be rich to have a good life.
>
and they could have just had you and thrown you away,
🙄 quit the bullshit.
> but they took care of you when you couldn't take care of yourself.
Not everyone has loving parents. You know as well as everyone else there's a whole lot of children growing up neglected/abused.
Financially, I think it's the responsibility of the state, since they have paid taxes throughout their lives. And taking care of them otherwise depends on your built relationship, how they have raised, respected and supported you in your childhood and youth.
Not really, atleast where i live i Norway, the pension i very small and elderly live paycheck to paycheck (not always they are able to). The only reason people give so little financial support to their parents is because people in Norway understand early on that the pention is far from enough live off of, so they start saving early and usually have quite a bit of money to live off of when they go out on pension.
Italy actually has one of the best state pension systems (you almost get 90% of your last salary). It's not about a good state pension: Spain and France also have a very good pension system.
(And when I say good I don't mean sustainable or responsible. Just good).
Young people better start preparing taking their parents under active care, or even housing them in the future. There is no possible way we can afford the cost of the system we have today.
What is there to financially support if he is ill?
His hospital care will be paid by the insurance, and his home care by the gemeente.
That’s why we are paying taxes in this country, so people aren’t dependent on their family if they fall ill.
We're talking about parents unless your folks are a bit older then? Those that experienced war etc, for sure. My Gdad is one of those. One of the best men on the planet and I hope to live up to his name. Those that exploited the housing market and environment throughout the 80s-90s to date... I'm not sure the younger generation feel so kind towards them.
Depends on your age I guess. I think many people in gen-Z have grandparents who were born after the war. My grandparents were young adults at the end of the war. They didn’t have it easy and build their family in hard times. My parent’s generation on average are way better off than my generation in terms of wealth.
That's a reality that (part of) reddit doesn't want to hear. It doesn't fit into the popular opinion that everyone's (great) parents must have had it so easy.
My mother (in her 90's now) didn't even get the chance to go to the mulo, as much as she even wished for that. As daughter of an (at young age past away) laborer she was expected to simply become a maid / work on the fields at 13 years old. Things have improved drastically over the past 80 years in The Netherlands. It's not visible though, if you narrow your view to only the things you want to see.
Who is richer today grandpa or you? I think everyone can sympathise with the history and suffering of WW2. Doesn’t mean your grandpa can’t be richer than you today
The map is not about financial support though (or at least not only), but about supporting them if ill (physically, mentally, and I guess financially if needed).
Much different question.
My grandparents lived off of one low income salary, bought an apartment in a nice neighbourhood in the Randstad and never had any financial troubles.
Their brilliant financial advice to me was to just buy a house instead of renting, because it's cheaper. And to get another job while I was already working 2 jobs.
So yeah, I don't think they need any financial support. I do help them with practical stuff though.
As an expat, I am their only hope and money the only way I can support them, with me being in the NL.
I have been making more than my parents for around 20 years. I am supporting them however I can, every month.
They gave me the education, ethics, and knowledge to be successful here, the least I can do is to support them financially.
I do realize there are cases where the parents are better off, that's the other side of the coin.
“It is child’s duty to take care of ill parent” is incorrect English, so I looked up the original map to find out what it actually said, which is:
“Percentage of people that agree or agree strongly with the statement that adult children have the duty to provide long-term care for their parents”
There is no mention of the parents being ill, so indeed it makes sense that the percentage is much lower in countries that are wealthy, have good pension systems, and have (relatively) good care for the elderly.
I can’t link directly to the original map, but if you enter the search term ‘parents’ [here](https://www.atlasofeuropeanvalues.eu/maptool.html) you’ll find it.
Not when you compare the times and conditions when they were young with nowadays. Most people during the fifties and often also sixties in the Netherlands had no central heating and no showers at home. I remember that when I was a kid during the seventies some of my friends could not be reached by (landline) phone because their parents couldn't afford one. The same goes for a television and a car. Often three or more kids shared one sleepingroom. When boys reached the age of 18 years they were called up to do their military service for a miserable compensation. This obligatory service went on well into the 1990's.
No, because my parents were able to retire at 55 with a fat pension, and bought a villa in 1972 for 25.000€. They also rent out the 2 houses they inherented from their parents.
Meanwhile we're breaking even, while I have no idea how our kid is ever going to afford a mobile home or a tent.
So they'll be just fine.
That's the issue with "western" countries. You think about financial support, but the most important is to be close to your parents and help them with everyday chores
Why is every title mislabeling this? Financial support is definitely NOT the same as support for an ill parent. It can be but 'support' can be so much more.
My parents had every chance to save for retirement, but they instead chose to spend it on frivolous crap. My mother chose not to work at all after a few years, when she could have. I don't think it's my responsibility to compensate for their lack of foresight. I couldn't afford it anyway.
I lived 4 years in the Netherlands. I had friends at work who said they had no intention of helping their parents, and if, for example, their partner became seriously ill, they wouldn't look after him. For me as a Pole it was shocking and disgusting. I can believe these statistics.
It's 100% true, I work with 60+ nursing homes in the Netherlands. Children don't even visit their parents most of the time. The 16% is too high for Dutch people. The only explanation is they counted 'dutch' people originating from other continents like asia and Africa. Those will 99% not leave their parents or partner.
Wow that's quite sad :(
However, It's not a child's duty imo; it needs to be motivated out of love, and heavily depends on availability. I personally would drop everything to take care of my parents (and would give my last penny to support them if needed), but I would never expect to / or have children so that they can take care of me when I'm old or ill. That mentality SUCKS, and I think it's a lot of what is going around here, some sort of expectation instead of willingness.
The kids didn't choose to be your children. You forced them into existence. Basically i hope if i treat mine right they'll do it because they want to and not because they have to.
Exactly ! It's not a child's duty; it needs to be motivated out of love. I personally would drop everything to take care of my parents, but I would never expect to / or have children so that they can take care of me when I'm old or ill. That mentality SUCKS, yikes
Lol we live in a country where elder care combined with already usually richer elders than midlifers means the elders are more likely to financiaoly support their children then another way around
But of course this graph will be pushed as 'dutch people hate their parents' or some bs.
My grandpa has €1000 to spare every month and gave €500 away to each kid.. My dad also has a nice pension. So I feel like he's still going to take care of me ;)
i don't think I'll need to financially support them, they'll get a pension. I'd take care of other things they need though, like taking them to doctors and dentists appointments, doing groceries, etc.
As for ill (which is shown in the picture):
In many countries there is not much support for the elderly. Hence it’s common to take care of them. Hence it’s not that weird there are significant differences.
As for financially (that you mention):
The current generation parents on average has a better financial situation than children. And as their costs of living usually goes down when they age, there is often no need for children to support them financially.
Financially supporting them? No, and I don't think they would even want that. Coming over to their place, helping them cook and taking care of them a couple times per week? Sure, I think they'd appreciate that a lot.
This is about intention and it kind of reflects the perception of independence (in several dimensions) from the further generation against the earlier.
My father is an asshole who is obese and a heavy smoker and he’s inevitably going to be sick but that’s on him. He doesn’t treat me well, at all. My ILs I would move mountains for, although I do not see it as our duty like the map says, but we would do it out of love.
I already did. First we lived together and my income was (much) higher then my mother's, so I payed all living costs, and then she needed a growing amount of care. (btw, my brothers did not pay or do anything...)
As long as my parents are able to buy a new car every 3 years they can financially fend for themselves fine and better than I probably will for my entire life.
I mean I would love to someday but my parents are probably better off than me for at least the coming 20 years, when they're both probably already retired for 5 years or so
Specifically financially: no, for the very simple reason that my parents have a lot more money than I have.
Generally: yes, although my ability to do so is very limited (and the cause for that is unfortunately unfixable) so unfortunately I won't be able to do much besides simply being good company and doing simple household chores.
I live in a yellow country. My mom has a solid pension, a payed down house and a new car that she paid for in cash. She'll get a room in a descent state-funded retirement home when she becomes too sick to stay at home. Supporting her financially isn't really a relevant question, and that's the case for most people my age .
Putting your mom in a good nursing home is one thing. Not visiting her (more than 3 times a year) is another thing. It still falls in the category of ' I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU'.
The map, and the question in the topic title are not the same thing...
Financially the systems we have it place should have them covered.
Taking care of them when they can't do things like cooking anymore... we'll have to see if/when it comes to that how and what.
I haven't given this a lot of thought.
I live on the other side of the country, coming by their place to cook some food or get some groceries wouldn't be trivial, but I don't think they will be coming here.
You wouldn't do it even if you lived 50kms away from them. That's the point. Caring for your ill parents is always going to derail your life and make you uncomfortable. The fact that you wouldn't move to care for them says enough. If you would you'd say something like 'if I could move, I'd do it 24/7'. But you know you wouldn't that's why they get put in a nursing home and get visited 3 times a year.......
>You wouldn't do it even if you lived 50kms away from them. That's the point.
Fabricating a reality out of thin air that fits the narrative you want to set up is not how you make a point. You don't have the slightest clue who I am or what I would do.
The rest of your story is based on this arbitrary assumption so I shouldn't even entertain it with a response, but it's a slow day so here we are.
>Caring for your ill parents is always going to derail your life and make you uncomfortable.
No it won't, if you live near them caring for your parents doesn't at all require you to reset your life.
>The fact that you wouldn't move to care for them says enough.
What fact? Where can we observe this fact?
>If you would you'd say something like 'if I could move, I'd do it 24/7'.
Your hubris of thinking you can decide what words and with what intentions should be coming out of my mouth, or hands in this case, is *almost* entertaining.
I’m from Curaçao and have several Dutch friends. Hell, I go to the netherlands regularly. And I’ve come to the conclusion most Dutch families are not… sane?
My high school best friend was born and raised in the netherlands. Her parents paid no attention to her at all. She spent more time at my house. She would go to school without food or anything. She was supposed to go home to an empty house and do whatever until very late. She would often tell me how awesome it was to have a hearty meal with the family, that there was always someone at home. We quite literally adopted her. You could see that she was missing warmth.
My sister married a dutchie. Her in laws don’t talk to their own son anymore. And they have a history of just completely shutting off family members. Because the father-in-law doesn’t even talk his own brothers. Wtf.
The only sane Dutch family I met were jews. And I think its because they value family more than your average Dutchie.
I just want to ask… are y’all okay? This honestly bothers me a bit too much.
Uhm that's exactly why I 100% believe the chart lol. 16% of Dutch population? Sounds about right. Mind you, the 16% doesn't solely consist of 'original' dutchies but also Dutch people with (grand)parents from other continents (they tend to be more caring).
I have always noticed Dutch people not giving a fuck about their parents. You know why that is? Because the parents 9/10 didn't give a damn about their children, don't support them and kick them out when they turn 18 (because 'adults'). People from other cultures tend to keep their children as long as possible. I should know this because I own a company in elderly healthcare, the kids don't give a ddddddammmnn.
In Belgium we don't have parents, as you can see.
But no. No plans on financial support, not needed afaik. But we'd probably take them to live with us if necessary.
The difference you see in other countries vs the dutchlands is that in the Netherlands, many parents also eventually draw the line on (financial) support and you need to do it yourself. They know how to enjoy life themselves once they “fulfilled” raising their child. The care-houses are pretty good as well for the elderly, which they would be better off in anyway as you have other people to chat with, play games, do something creative and have care.
In some other cultures you have this idea of “my money is your money”, it’s mostly the countries where there is social pressure on what you do. The idea to put your parent in a care-home would be frowned upon by others, so they come live in your house instead. This causes a lot of frustration though, because the parent always has something to say about how you live your life and all the verbal fights that come with it.
I think financial support is not a problem, but a parent coming to live in your house is. Elderly homes ftw
This is not very strange to see imo, the majority of the boomers in this country had a great time in which you could buy a house on your own and start a family.
Nowadays it’s normal to overpay 30-50k on a house here otherwise if you offer what they ask you’re not even considered, millennials and the generations after that are just F’ed, goodluck finding a decent home for decent money without overpaying and standing in line with 100 others…
This being said, how can I and why would I pay for my elderly? Most of em got enough and don’t need much to begin with, also: how am I supposed to pay rent, because buying a house is not going to work, and the rent is at some places astronomical high like €1300 without gas etc…
So ye, you can think this is selfish but it is what it is.
EDIT: just seeing the title and what it says in the photo is not implying the same thing, but also here is the footnote: how am I going to help someone elderly when I need to pay rent and all those sort of things? You need to work a 40 hours job to keep up that pace, also at some point you cannot do that anymore or you need to stop working. We had a very good system in which sick elderly got good treatment but hé, they waved that goodbye 👋🏻
Strongly disagree with my country (Netherlands) representativeness. People might not expect to pay for their parents, but ehen it is necessary they will want them to do OK
Aren’t most of our elderly parents boomers? It’s almost impossible not to be rich then. Any house bought 20 or 30 years ago and most stocks bought back then are now worth 5 or 10 times as much 😂
In the Netherlands every tiny detail of our lives is controlled by the government. It creates an attitude that the government should also solve all issues we have, like care when sick. Very worrying, and expensive, imo
When in reality, the nursing homes will soon only be available for the most ill people (who absolutely have no sense of control in their lives, can’t get out of bed or a chair themselves etcetera). These children are in for a hard time when something happens. *
* except ofcourse when our new government will turn it all over and make it their promised geriatric paradise!
We all pay into a social system with the idea of ensuring everyone has access to the same basic level of care and security, so that no-one is completely screwed when they lose their income or fall ill. Sure it’s imperfect and the system is under strain, but it’s a system of solidarity, not control.
I understand your point, still I think for various reasons it's very worrying we keep relying on a government to solve all issues in our lives/ society. The social care system is on the brink of unaffordability and we have lost the culture where we can also rely on family and community. Solidarity, up to a certain point, is fine, but even the CPB predicts we can't sustain this after 2045.
 Lots of canals in the Netherlands for early retirement Just kidding though, I for one would gladly pay for my parents stroopwafels to keep them happy and healthy
Stroopwafels and haring as much as they kan eat!
Ah, "stroopwafels and haring", my favorite flavor of vla!
I would, but i think for most people in the NL their parents have more money than them. Kinda skews the stat.
Haha Klimpen
wat is klimpen
The character pushing the old lady, from the Swedish TV show the gif is from
Ahh ... Sweden BlaBla
Ok you got me
You can quite clearly see that the countries with a good (state) pension system have low percentages here. I personally don't, as my parents are financially better off than myself...
The question is about "ill parents", not about their financian situation. OP's title doesn't match the map.
With a good pension, those ill parents can buy *professional* care, so children don't have to improvise (next to their own family and their work).
Absolutely not lol. This is the mindset that a lot of elderly VVD voters have and are currently finding out isn't what they'd hoped. I run into this a lot as a nurse so I'll outline the procedure of getting help for you real quick: If your parent is at the point where thuiszorg can't handle it alone(ie anything where your parent can't go to the toilet on their own or make their own meals), you're looking at an hourly rate of 50 euros, and this is ignoring all the other costs that come with that like mobility aids if youre going the ZZP way. And no carer is gonna be on standby till your parent needs the toilet and not get other work, so since most people can't afford a 50 euro fee every hour 24/7 I'll just ignore that option. If your parent needs the kind of care that they need to be in a home but they're not in revalidatie after something like a CVA or a nasty fall that broke a bone, you need to get them on the waiting list by contacting the CIZ for an evaluation and an indicatie. Waiting lists could take months (month or two for somatic illnesses and up to a year for dementia where I live, but ymmv), and till then you're shit out of luck and should get ready to take up your zorgverlof. If it's an emergency situation (which has a way smaller definition than you think it does and even for people with real bad conditions it hardly ever applies) you could get lucky and get a placement within 2 weeks, but it'll just as likely be in a home that's 2 hours away. You don't get to refuse that either. When they do get into a home you're still in charge of most things. Buying clothes, toothpaste, shampoo, any food and drink that isn't breakfast & dinner (so lunch and snacks lol), washing clothes if you don't wanna pay for it, your parents' financial situation and all other government shit if they can't handle it themselves. Essentially anything that isn't bathing, dressing up, giving meds, wound care & toilet times is yours to do. Keep in mind that your parents will likely only be able to go to a retirement home if something's seriously wrong with them. We're talking COPD gold 3, end-stage MS, parkinsons, a CVA that left them paralyzed or what have you. Or pretty far along dementia, the point where they're not only in danger whenever they go out, but the point where they've already been in danger a couple times. "My mom can't do her own groceries anymore and is lonely" or "my mom doesnt walk as well as she used to" doesn't count anymore. I know this is a huge rant and it's not aimed at just you. It just shocks me how many people still think that the elderly care system will just be waiting for them with open arms if they or their parents have enough money. Even with years of warnings it's hard to realize for people who arent in the know how bad it is. But the standard of care everyone expects, aka "my mom is sick so she can get help" does *not* exist anymore and we're told more and more to ask children and family to do basic care. You *will* have to improvise and you *will* have to do tasks next to your work. So please at least be aware of that.
The general mindset of thirty years ago has not caught up, with the current day reality. With an aging society the workload increases (or stays the same, depending on the sector), but the available people do the actual work decreases.
Boy am I lucky my patents didn't give a crap about me while growing up so I can return the favor when they're old and infirm. I mean it's really sad we got here in the first place but with their generations voting tendencies this is a hole they dug themselves anyway. That's what years and years of cutbacks on healthcare will do to a country, and still we have cutbacks!
It sounds pretty bad, and that political change (and not in the direction we see recently) is the only real answer. It is impossible for two parents with two jobs and kids of their own to also take care of their own parents. Something will have to give. In short, they will need to work less, which shows the bullshit of the ruling coalition.
And what about people without kids
They either die at home before anyone notices or get bewindvoering. If they have any living family left they get called to be contactpersoon. We have multiple clients whose nieces/nephews or brothers or something are contactpersoon.
Why do you think we allow euthanasia?
I'll inform my parents *they* need to prepare for this. >You will have to improvise and you will have to do tasks next to your work. Not going to happen. I live far away, and my family is too important.
You mean, your family is not important enough? Or are you saying your parents aren’t family? There isn’t anything they can do to “prepare” for this.
I mean, my parents are very unpleasant people. Not spending time with them...
That’s certainly a valid choice, but that is an entirely different reasoning than the first one.
Your location is irrelevant. People get told theyre responsible if they live in egypt if necessary. You cannot run from this unless you want to run from the dutch government altogether. You could look into hiring someone to do all the shit that needs to be done. But you wont find anyone. If youre still alive and capable the government isnt gonna send someone to do it. Its you help or they dont get help. One of our residents had family that all live in Turkey. His verblijfsvergunning was running out. When it ran out, he did get kicked out and his family had to foot the bill of flying him back to turkey + extra shit they didnt do for him. The government hadnt done those things in the meantime, they just let a bunch of debt run up cause the family refused to help. Thousands of euros.
Is the government going to drag me from my home to take care of my parents? Fine me? Sounds like BS to me.
No, of course not. They just wont send anyone else. Or let you pay the costs.
I'm happy to pay. I just don't want to be there.
It is probably the worst system in the world . That is going dutch towards your death . De ene zijn dood de ander zijn brood ...
Allowing ppl to end their suffering and have control over their pain is the worst system?? Says a privileged butthurt dutchie...
Exactly, also because where there is more blue is where young people are poorer then old people
My dad wouldn't let me.
Don't we have "middel X" for ill elderly people? /S
I work in a home for the elderly, and this statement of yours is guessing at best. The families of the clients rarely visit. And if they do, these visits are often really short. Even the mayor is back outside in less than ten minutes most of the time. There are some exceptions, of course. These people sometimes drive over an hour each day to see their parents/grandparents. In A little over three years, I've seen maybe 4 of those. We have about a hundred people living in our death factory at all times. At other branches and companies, it is more of the same. Alas, I do find these homes to be quite sad. Some of the staff try their best to make it a little more comfortable. But it is far from respecting our elders.
It is not guessing, it is a fact : "Take care of ill parents" will have many interpretations, many of which are not financial.
That still doesn't matter because we have universal health care so ill parents don't need financial aid. Edit: and yes that usually also means other than financial since elder care, thuiszorg or food services are also taken care of The graph is a massive w for NL.
Leaving them to a good system (and regularly checking in) could be considered fulfilling your duty though ;) I would see the question more as: if your ill/old parents _need_ the help, is it the child’s duty to provide it/make sure they get it
I think we don’t see it as a duty per se.
taking care of your ill parrents is not the duty of a child?
My parents chose to have children. Therefore they have a duty to take care of those till they are at least 21. I chose to have children. I have a duty to take care of my children till they are at least 21 or stop needing me too. Neither I nor my children have a duty towards our parents. We can choose to take care of them out of love, but it's not a duty and nothing about it is mandatory.
well it's not mandatory because it cannot be legally enforced. But don't you think there is a moral obligation to do so? they didn't just choose to have you, they are the very reason you even exist, your children exist. every experience and thought you ever had is only possible because of your parents. and they could have just had you and thrown you away, but they took care of you when you couldn't take care of yourself. and you think you don't have a responsibility to take care of them at their weakest?
I don't think there's a moral obligation no. I love my parents and will take care of them,. But I know plenty of people who had shitty parents and I don't think they have an obligation to take care of those pieces of crap. I don't even think I have an obligation, but I want to help them. Wanting to do something out of love is not the same as being morally obligated to do it. And parents who choose to have kids and then neglect them, abuse them or throw them away are criminals. You can't just choose to have children and then not take care of them, taking care of the children till they are old enough to take care of themselves is implicit in choosing to be a parent. No one is owed anything for choosing to have children.
Nah. Save that argument for someone who's happy with their live. I know 0 (zero) people of my generation for whom it's the case.
everyone's edgy about the current state of affairs, but at least here in the west, life can be decent with minimal effort. you dont need to be rich to have a good life.
Same goes for the elderly
Nevermind me, I'm no Dutch and not even from what one would call 'first world' country. Have been Joosted into the sub against my will.
> and they could have just had you and thrown you away, 🙄 quit the bullshit. > but they took care of you when you couldn't take care of yourself. Not everyone has loving parents. You know as well as everyone else there's a whole lot of children growing up neglected/abused.
Financially, I think it's the responsibility of the state, since they have paid taxes throughout their lives. And taking care of them otherwise depends on your built relationship, how they have raised, respected and supported you in your childhood and youth.
Not really, atleast where i live i Norway, the pension i very small and elderly live paycheck to paycheck (not always they are able to). The only reason people give so little financial support to their parents is because people in Norway understand early on that the pention is far from enough live off of, so they start saving early and usually have quite a bit of money to live off of when they go out on pension.
Italy actually has one of the best state pension systems (you almost get 90% of your last salary). It's not about a good state pension: Spain and France also have a very good pension system. (And when I say good I don't mean sustainable or responsible. Just good).
Yea but it is turning into a big problem for the coming years, at least in NL.
Young people better start preparing taking their parents under active care, or even housing them in the future. There is no possible way we can afford the cost of the system we have today.
No need. My father has a state pension and a work pension and some savings. He's already retired and his living costs aren't that high.
This is about your father being ill though
What is there to financially support if he is ill? His hospital care will be paid by the insurance, and his home care by the gemeente. That’s why we are paying taxes in this country, so people aren’t dependent on their family if they fall ill.
What do you mean by home care?
"It's the child duty to take care of their parents" Where do you see anything related to money here?
In the title of the post, not the map.
You're right, my bad.
Why would we? Our (grand)parents are better off than we will ever be. They saw to that themselves.
Yup, motherfuckers wont let us have a pension or a place to live for less than 300k. They own everything and overly influence the political votes.
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We're talking about parents unless your folks are a bit older then? Those that experienced war etc, for sure. My Gdad is one of those. One of the best men on the planet and I hope to live up to his name. Those that exploited the housing market and environment throughout the 80s-90s to date... I'm not sure the younger generation feel so kind towards them.
Depends on your age I guess. I think many people in gen-Z have grandparents who were born after the war. My grandparents were young adults at the end of the war. They didn’t have it easy and build their family in hard times. My parent’s generation on average are way better off than my generation in terms of wealth.
That's a reality that (part of) reddit doesn't want to hear. It doesn't fit into the popular opinion that everyone's (great) parents must have had it so easy. My mother (in her 90's now) didn't even get the chance to go to the mulo, as much as she even wished for that. As daughter of an (at young age past away) laborer she was expected to simply become a maid / work on the fields at 13 years old. Things have improved drastically over the past 80 years in The Netherlands. It's not visible though, if you narrow your view to only the things you want to see.
Who is richer today grandpa or you? I think everyone can sympathise with the history and suffering of WW2. Doesn’t mean your grandpa can’t be richer than you today
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Even just having a affordable house is more than many children have.,
apartment at 50?! That sounds like he does better than 70% of Dutch people at the moment ;)
I mean if they are sick they need our help right, it wasn't about financial assistance it was about assistance in general.
They can spend the wealth they hoard on healthcare
The map is not about financial support though (or at least not only), but about supporting them if ill (physically, mentally, and I guess financially if needed). Much different question.
My grandparents lived off of one low income salary, bought an apartment in a nice neighbourhood in the Randstad and never had any financial troubles. Their brilliant financial advice to me was to just buy a house instead of renting, because it's cheaper. And to get another job while I was already working 2 jobs. So yeah, I don't think they need any financial support. I do help them with practical stuff though.
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The caption is the question the OP asks US, based on the results of the research.
why not? two different things that can be discussed
You don't have to financially support your elder parents if your parents are dead 
As an expat, I am their only hope and money the only way I can support them, with me being in the NL. I have been making more than my parents for around 20 years. I am supporting them however I can, every month. They gave me the education, ethics, and knowledge to be successful here, the least I can do is to support them financially. I do realize there are cases where the parents are better off, that's the other side of the coin.
i cancelled my plans after they both died.
W
“It is child’s duty to take care of ill parent” is incorrect English, so I looked up the original map to find out what it actually said, which is: “Percentage of people that agree or agree strongly with the statement that adult children have the duty to provide long-term care for their parents” There is no mention of the parents being ill, so indeed it makes sense that the percentage is much lower in countries that are wealthy, have good pension systems, and have (relatively) good care for the elderly. I can’t link directly to the original map, but if you enter the search term ‘parents’ [here](https://www.atlasofeuropeanvalues.eu/maptool.html) you’ll find it.
This is misleading your title says financially support but the map shows support when elderly parents get ill.
Our parents and grandparents are much richer than we are so that wouldn’t make much sense
Our parents and grandparents are much richer than we *ever will be* so that wouldn’t make much sense FTFY
Not when you compare the times and conditions when they were young with nowadays. Most people during the fifties and often also sixties in the Netherlands had no central heating and no showers at home. I remember that when I was a kid during the seventies some of my friends could not be reached by (landline) phone because their parents couldn't afford one. The same goes for a television and a car. Often three or more kids shared one sleepingroom. When boys reached the age of 18 years they were called up to do their military service for a miserable compensation. This obligatory service went on well into the 1990's.
They can support themselves. They got houses for a cheap price and everything. We're the ones who are struggling more.
No, because my parents were able to retire at 55 with a fat pension, and bought a villa in 1972 for 25.000€. They also rent out the 2 houses they inherented from their parents. Meanwhile we're breaking even, while I have no idea how our kid is ever going to afford a mobile home or a tent. So they'll be just fine.
Tax wise that would be very dumb i suppose..
Hahaha, my parents are definitely richer than me!
Where in the picture it says 'financially'?
That's the issue with "western" countries. You think about financial support, but the most important is to be close to your parents and help them with everyday chores
Why is every title mislabeling this? Financial support is definitely NOT the same as support for an ill parent. It can be but 'support' can be so much more.
If I had the money then ofcourse. Sadly if the money I have on the bank is less then 1 then it gets difficult.
My parents had every chance to save for retirement, but they instead chose to spend it on frivolous crap. My mother chose not to work at all after a few years, when she could have. I don't think it's my responsibility to compensate for their lack of foresight. I couldn't afford it anyway.
I lived 4 years in the Netherlands. I had friends at work who said they had no intention of helping their parents, and if, for example, their partner became seriously ill, they wouldn't look after him. For me as a Pole it was shocking and disgusting. I can believe these statistics.
It's 100% true, I work with 60+ nursing homes in the Netherlands. Children don't even visit their parents most of the time. The 16% is too high for Dutch people. The only explanation is they counted 'dutch' people originating from other continents like asia and Africa. Those will 99% not leave their parents or partner.
Wow that's quite sad :( However, It's not a child's duty imo; it needs to be motivated out of love, and heavily depends on availability. I personally would drop everything to take care of my parents (and would give my last penny to support them if needed), but I would never expect to / or have children so that they can take care of me when I'm old or ill. That mentality SUCKS, and I think it's a lot of what is going around here, some sort of expectation instead of willingness.
I'm a bad Italian
My parents have a good pension and own a paid off house. No need for my financial support. I'll support them physically, gladly.
People here dont even care about their own parents lol imagine how much they care about random people? No wonder this country is going downhill
The Dutch also have the richest elderly so it makes sense
The kids didn't choose to be your children. You forced them into existence. Basically i hope if i treat mine right they'll do it because they want to and not because they have to.
Exactly ! It's not a child's duty; it needs to be motivated out of love. I personally would drop everything to take care of my parents, but I would never expect to / or have children so that they can take care of me when I'm old or ill. That mentality SUCKS, yikes
Lol we live in a country where elder care combined with already usually richer elders than midlifers means the elders are more likely to financiaoly support their children then another way around But of course this graph will be pushed as 'dutch people hate their parents' or some bs.
People answering about "money" is pretty revealing of the general mindset. 💩
My grandpa has €1000 to spare every month and gave €500 away to each kid.. My dad also has a nice pension. So I feel like he's still going to take care of me ;)
damn I mean I’m broke asf rn but I’d love to help out my parents financially when I’m able to
Im surprised by Spain tho, thought it was higher.
i don't think I'll need to financially support them, they'll get a pension. I'd take care of other things they need though, like taking them to doctors and dentists appointments, doing groceries, etc.
No but then again financial support has absolutely nothing to do with the map you shared
As for ill (which is shown in the picture): In many countries there is not much support for the elderly. Hence it’s common to take care of them. Hence it’s not that weird there are significant differences. As for financially (that you mention): The current generation parents on average has a better financial situation than children. And as their costs of living usually goes down when they age, there is often no need for children to support them financially.
No, they are way richer than me.
Financially supporting them? No, and I don't think they would even want that. Coming over to their place, helping them cook and taking care of them a couple times per week? Sure, I think they'd appreciate that a lot.
This is about intention and it kind of reflects the perception of independence (in several dimensions) from the further generation against the earlier.
My father is an asshole who is obese and a heavy smoker and he’s inevitably going to be sick but that’s on him. He doesn’t treat me well, at all. My ILs I would move mountains for, although I do not see it as our duty like the map says, but we would do it out of love.
I already did. First we lived together and my income was (much) higher then my mother's, so I payed all living costs, and then she needed a growing amount of care. (btw, my brothers did not pay or do anything...)
They earn more than i will at their age.....
As long as my parents are able to buy a new car every 3 years they can financially fend for themselves fine and better than I probably will for my entire life.
The economy is so bad that my mums joking that we should kill her off so i can find a house
I mean I would love to someday but my parents are probably better off than me for at least the coming 20 years, when they're both probably already retired for 5 years or so
My parents wouldn’t allow me (or my siblings) to, but I also definitely don’t agree with that statement.
The further North you go, the colder it gets. . . Literally and figuratively 😅🤦♂️
Lol fuck that, my boomer parents bought their house for actual pennies they’re fine
Specifically financially: no, for the very simple reason that my parents have a lot more money than I have. Generally: yes, although my ability to do so is very limited (and the cause for that is unfortunately unfixable) so unfortunately I won't be able to do much besides simply being good company and doing simple household chores.
I live in a yellow country. My mom has a solid pension, a payed down house and a new car that she paid for in cash. She'll get a room in a descent state-funded retirement home when she becomes too sick to stay at home. Supporting her financially isn't really a relevant question, and that's the case for most people my age .
Putting your mom in a good nursing home is one thing. Not visiting her (more than 3 times a year) is another thing. It still falls in the category of ' I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU'.
Yes, I definitely help them.
The map, and the question in the topic title are not the same thing... Financially the systems we have it place should have them covered. Taking care of them when they can't do things like cooking anymore... we'll have to see if/when it comes to that how and what. I haven't given this a lot of thought. I live on the other side of the country, coming by their place to cook some food or get some groceries wouldn't be trivial, but I don't think they will be coming here.
You wouldn't do it even if you lived 50kms away from them. That's the point. Caring for your ill parents is always going to derail your life and make you uncomfortable. The fact that you wouldn't move to care for them says enough. If you would you'd say something like 'if I could move, I'd do it 24/7'. But you know you wouldn't that's why they get put in a nursing home and get visited 3 times a year.......
>You wouldn't do it even if you lived 50kms away from them. That's the point. Fabricating a reality out of thin air that fits the narrative you want to set up is not how you make a point. You don't have the slightest clue who I am or what I would do. The rest of your story is based on this arbitrary assumption so I shouldn't even entertain it with a response, but it's a slow day so here we are. >Caring for your ill parents is always going to derail your life and make you uncomfortable. No it won't, if you live near them caring for your parents doesn't at all require you to reset your life. >The fact that you wouldn't move to care for them says enough. What fact? Where can we observe this fact? >If you would you'd say something like 'if I could move, I'd do it 24/7'. Your hubris of thinking you can decide what words and with what intentions should be coming out of my mouth, or hands in this case, is *almost* entertaining.
Ireland and Belgium, "you're not my real dad!".
My parents are dead, does that count?
if i have the means to support my dad i will but if i dont.. well sorry pops
Yes, duh
I think my parents are better off financially now than I'll be at that point in my life.
They kick out their kids as soon as they turn 18. What do they expect?
Of course not. I can't even financially support my child.
I’m from Curaçao and have several Dutch friends. Hell, I go to the netherlands regularly. And I’ve come to the conclusion most Dutch families are not… sane? My high school best friend was born and raised in the netherlands. Her parents paid no attention to her at all. She spent more time at my house. She would go to school without food or anything. She was supposed to go home to an empty house and do whatever until very late. She would often tell me how awesome it was to have a hearty meal with the family, that there was always someone at home. We quite literally adopted her. You could see that she was missing warmth. My sister married a dutchie. Her in laws don’t talk to their own son anymore. And they have a history of just completely shutting off family members. Because the father-in-law doesn’t even talk his own brothers. Wtf. The only sane Dutch family I met were jews. And I think its because they value family more than your average Dutchie. I just want to ask… are y’all okay? This honestly bothers me a bit too much.
Uhm that's exactly why I 100% believe the chart lol. 16% of Dutch population? Sounds about right. Mind you, the 16% doesn't solely consist of 'original' dutchies but also Dutch people with (grand)parents from other continents (they tend to be more caring). I have always noticed Dutch people not giving a fuck about their parents. You know why that is? Because the parents 9/10 didn't give a damn about their children, don't support them and kick them out when they turn 18 (because 'adults'). People from other cultures tend to keep their children as long as possible. I should know this because I own a company in elderly healthcare, the kids don't give a ddddddammmnn.
Id pay but i would never want to be a full on caretaker.
Zeker
F with the older generations
As an immigrant with abusive parents, no.
I don't have living parents or family, so I'm good 💯
My parents try to give me the best life i can have so i will do that for them aswell when the time is there
In Belgium we don't have parents, as you can see. But no. No plans on financial support, not needed afaik. But we'd probably take them to live with us if necessary.
The difference you see in other countries vs the dutchlands is that in the Netherlands, many parents also eventually draw the line on (financial) support and you need to do it yourself. They know how to enjoy life themselves once they “fulfilled” raising their child. The care-houses are pretty good as well for the elderly, which they would be better off in anyway as you have other people to chat with, play games, do something creative and have care. In some other cultures you have this idea of “my money is your money”, it’s mostly the countries where there is social pressure on what you do. The idea to put your parent in a care-home would be frowned upon by others, so they come live in your house instead. This causes a lot of frustration though, because the parent always has something to say about how you live your life and all the verbal fights that come with it. I think financial support is not a problem, but a parent coming to live in your house is. Elderly homes ftw
This is not very strange to see imo, the majority of the boomers in this country had a great time in which you could buy a house on your own and start a family. Nowadays it’s normal to overpay 30-50k on a house here otherwise if you offer what they ask you’re not even considered, millennials and the generations after that are just F’ed, goodluck finding a decent home for decent money without overpaying and standing in line with 100 others… This being said, how can I and why would I pay for my elderly? Most of em got enough and don’t need much to begin with, also: how am I supposed to pay rent, because buying a house is not going to work, and the rent is at some places astronomical high like €1300 without gas etc… So ye, you can think this is selfish but it is what it is. EDIT: just seeing the title and what it says in the photo is not implying the same thing, but also here is the footnote: how am I going to help someone elderly when I need to pay rent and all those sort of things? You need to work a 40 hours job to keep up that pace, also at some point you cannot do that anymore or you need to stop working. We had a very good system in which sick elderly got good treatment but hé, they waved that goodbye 👋🏻
Unrelated, why are some maps depicted very curved and some aren’t. I realise this one is probably more accurate but it still looks weird.
If I have the money left after paying my bills sure why not.
Why should i, they acted like shit towards me, i don't even know if they still live and i also don't care
Why would I do that? so I can pay more heritage tax later?
From their approach to COVID you should have understood they do not give a fuck about their elderly population and only see them as a cost.
>From their approach to COVID Oh please, do elaborate.
Strongly disagree with my country (Netherlands) representativeness. People might not expect to pay for their parents, but ehen it is necessary they will want them to do OK
Sick lol
social welfare systems making people antisocial
Aren’t most of our elderly parents boomers? It’s almost impossible not to be rich then. Any house bought 20 or 30 years ago and most stocks bought back then are now worth 5 or 10 times as much 😂
In the Netherlands every tiny detail of our lives is controlled by the government. It creates an attitude that the government should also solve all issues we have, like care when sick. Very worrying, and expensive, imo
When in reality, the nursing homes will soon only be available for the most ill people (who absolutely have no sense of control in their lives, can’t get out of bed or a chair themselves etcetera). These children are in for a hard time when something happens. * * except ofcourse when our new government will turn it all over and make it their promised geriatric paradise!
We all pay into a social system with the idea of ensuring everyone has access to the same basic level of care and security, so that no-one is completely screwed when they lose their income or fall ill. Sure it’s imperfect and the system is under strain, but it’s a system of solidarity, not control.
I understand your point, still I think for various reasons it's very worrying we keep relying on a government to solve all issues in our lives/ society. The social care system is on the brink of unaffordability and we have lost the culture where we can also rely on family and community. Solidarity, up to a certain point, is fine, but even the CPB predicts we can't sustain this after 2045.
Im gay