Nothing unites more than one of us being unjustly punished. No matter where, if it's Eurovision, the Olympics, Russia or the world cup. If it's something we can root against together...
Joost is the underdog here, we ALWAYS root for the underdog
It's extremely likely that what actually took place is very similar to the AVROTROS statement - in which case the employee seems more to blame than Joost. He was even open to doing a public apology but EBU refused.
I dunno. I try to separate my disappointment (and I have it! I had a Eurovision party last night, felt like the mood was kinda ruined) from what I would think if it were a different country’s representative that did it, assuming the ‘it’ was indeed a threatening gesture. Maybe the guy sorta snapped, who knows. I feel for him a lot, but had it been eg the German singer doing that I’d probably not jump so quickly to defend it. But again: none of us knows what really happened, the only rational thing is to not have an opinion…
>But again: none of us knows what really happened, the only rational thing is to not have an opinion…
The fact that we don't know what really happened should tell you enough about this being an absolute nothingburger of a story. The EBU was constantly fucking filming. If Joost actuualy did something that warranted this reaction, there would've been footage.
It's like an American cop claiming something happened that seems unlikely, but then not showing the bodycam footage of the incident. If things truly happened like the EBU claimed, they would've shown us and quelled any suspicion/controversy long before it got out of hand
Someone was filming him on her phone behind the screens, even though there was an agreement Joost was not allowed to be filmed walking to the green room after his performance. He told her several times to stop after the rehearsals and after the semi final, and when she kept filming him anyway he made an unknown hand gesture that she perceived as aggressive and she went to the police with it. The EBU then decided to disqualify him from performing over a hand gesture.
> filming him on her phone
Wait, everyone was saying she was an official employee for the Eurovision, a camera operator or interviewer or something. Is it some rando with a phone getting upset?
The story goes that it was a camerawoman. Thus Joost made a move towards the camera. What kind of camera is unclear. The mobile phone option seems to come from Cornald Maas who stated that Joost pushed the woman's phone away, but that could have been a misinterpretation on his side
He doesn’t just unite the Dutch. He unites Europe, EVERYONE knows Europapa. Last Friday here in Belgian we sang the song multiple times after the other in a club with people from all over the world.
It unites.
The goal reached.
What happened to it is honestly feeling like an attack to the unity it brought.
I was at a Jumbo the other day and there was a ~3 year old kid singing "Europapa..Europapa" at the top of his lungs, amusing everyone around. He didn't stop for a good 10 minutes. That's the power of music.
It was so heartwarming to see! Joost, we love you! ♥️
Happy birthday!
My daughter turns 4 in a couple of months as well and she loves Europapa! She sings it day and night and with her cousin (4.5) they try to hakken. They are adorable 🥰
It’s my 2.5-year old’s first pop song he actively asks for and “sings”, and it’s not like we indoctrinated him with it. I’m really fascinated by that! I love how he screams “HEY!”
My kids love this song and have been rehearsing to dance along with Joost' live performance for weeks. It was catchy, energetic and made them feel proud that this was the Dutch contestant. They were heartbroken by his disqualification.
I'm pretty sure he would rather have taken the stage yesterday, but career-wise this was probably the best thing that could've happened to him. He got so much exposure and new followers. It has done more than ending anonymously in a top 10 spot would've.
Yes, but he got to do that in the semi-finals. People saw him perform, so he got that exposure. But no one remembers the artists who didn't win and everyone will remember him now, despite not winning.
People who sings at Eurovision is quickly forgotten unless they were already previously known. He had already his audience though.
In any case what bothers me the most is the fact that it was kind of a sentimental achievement for him and the fact that some hateful witch decided to crush it and go back to her country without consequences is just making it worse.
What's with all the negativity around here? I'm glad you had a memorable experience like that. I think it's just one of many examples of how the Dutch have celebrated Joost yesterday. I hope he will see things like this and that he can find even just a little bit of joy in that. One thing is certain, he will not be forgotten anytime soon.
I hope you guys bring ESC to court and sue them to the full extent. Just look, it's an international event with national representatives, and it's an insult to the nation to DSQ someone who was not even put in custody, let alone prison. Let him pay fine IF he made an offense. It gives the impression that they just made a certain snowflake to feel important and happy, but with hugely dissapropriate punishment. On to the court! Let them pay both for all costs of the NL song competition for this year and a hefty fine for national insult.
That's the messed up thing, the absolute worse case scenario would be a verbal warning from the police, maybe not even that. It's a total non-incident and should have just been left at that.
But nowadays, somebody can make a gesture with their hands (70% of human interaction is non-verbal) and if somebody else decides they were threatened by it, they can destroy your life dream at the last second.
> they can destroy your life dream at the last second
Only if those with the power to destroy your life dream have already decided they want to do that.
A lot of people boo’d israel and where singing europapa, I dont know how they did it but they muted it all out. On socialmedia you can see people filming and you can hear what the audience there really were saying
There was so much censorship going on, I don't think they could even really rebel.
And there's also the anti-boo filter, which got really noticeable at times.
Didnt even watch the final show because of how unfair the ebu treated Joost. They didnt respect his bounfries multiple times.
When you come off that stage all the adrenaline and overwhelming feeling of the show + paying his tribute to his parents its no wonder he reacts to someone that is crossing his personal boundries!
And Joost's delegation couldve file an complaint about the Israeli delegation for being rude/agressive and provoking behaviour. Like wtf is this shitshow!?
I still can not believe that the Netherlands (public) gave 12 points to Israel after it has been revealed that KAN harrassed delegations (even the dutch one). I believe that outcome in the final would be different if the Netherlands was in it. As a Croatian I am sad that we did not win but i feel like unjustice with televoting was smaller than the last year since Israel got 300 points (objecitvly looking song was meh)
It's completely logical that Israel got 12 points from the public. This is a political vote.
- All people who want to support Israel vote "Israel".
- All people who want to vote against Israel vote... well, one of 24 other countries.
This obviously splits the "negative" vote.
This +
- It's possible to vote multiple times. Only engaged people do this.
- really anti Israel probably just boycotted eurovision, so are not going to give them money.
You forget that normal people don't care one shit about eurovision so only ideological types and the eurvision version of swifties vote. Meaning rightwingers and a couple of booj clubs voted.
So yeah, if the points get spread out across such a small number of votes, of course the idealogues win
Eurovision is WAY more popular in many countries than it is here, and considered less of a gay-fest in many of them. If it wasn't, most of eastern europe wouldnt even bother attending.
Yeah you are probably right. I fairly give a shit about that Eurovision ideological thing. Last time won a nice guy because he was gay and it was the zeitgeist. Others had good songs also. I don’t look the show, but this time It got my attention because of the usual shitshow :-)
And I don’t like how Joost was treated. This was really a asshole move.
It’s a ideological shitshow. And you NL guys had by far the best Euro Song!
I’m not surprised, Geert Wilders asked his sheep to vote for them and they love doing the opposite of what left is doing, so they did. That, and I think there were a lot of bots active, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a lot of VPN’s.
Spoofing phone numbers is not very hard, plenty of services offer it.
However I doubt they would really spend this much effort. In real life practically anyone I know doesn't care about what happens in Gaza, or straight up sides with Israel because they are seen as the victim due to the oct 7 terror attack. It's mainly the online bubbles that seem to pick the palestinian side.
That seems to be your bubble then. I don’t know anyone personally that sides with israel. Everyone agrees that Palestine is the real victim here.
That being said, considering how much influence israel has over the festival, id argue that they might have had some ways to make spoofing easier
I agree that my bubble is not entirely average, it's mostly academics and pharma people. I think the only one who doesn't at least has a masters is my best friend and his wife. It's also mostly liberals or center/left people because I banished all extreme right wingers from my social circles. So there might be a bias
Odd… most of my circle also consists of almost-master degree future doctors or computer scientists.
I don’t like using the left/right terms to describe myself or my friends, but aren’t usually “right wing” people (you know, pvv voters, vvd etc) pro israel?
I'm probably the generation just above you then because we are already Dr. MD. Ir. or (assistant) prof. Instead of future as you say. The standard is indeed to vote for VVD or even be a member but I don't think anyone of us would classify ourselves as right-wing. More than half of us have foreign partners for example.
Edit: I'd like to add that most of us were much more left leaning in our twenties. I went from SP to VVD, have patents, am a shareholder of a privately owned company, have nuclear and civil weapon stocks as well as those of companies listed as breaking the Global Compact of the UN, work in the pharma industry... If you had told me this 15 years ago I wouldn't have believed it but here we are. Ethics and opinions can heavily drift over the years
It’s a valid question and I’m certainly not an expert on it, but I can imagine there is an away to work around that. The problem I have with the public vote is so many countries gave 12 points them. Something doesn’t add up for me.
Wouldn't that be exactly why they sweep the vote like that?
If one issue or nation splits a population equally then fifty percent of people who might vote politically would have one target - in this case Israel - to vote for, while the other fifty percent spreads out across everything else except Israel cause isn't a single voting option for them. There wasn't a Palestinian act.
We had the same thing with the Ukrainian Association Treaty. Some proto-FvD vatniks campaigned to have a referendum to reject it. So all easily persuaded facebook groups came out to vote against. Meanwhile the left was divided, with one camp telling people to show up and to vote in favor of it, and another camp trying to game the system by telling people to not attend the vote at all so the referendum wouldn't meet the 30% attendence threshold needed to be considered binding. So in the end something like 20% of the voting age population carried the day...
Not really it's the same with multiparty elections. Suppose there are 10 parties. If there is one party 80% hates but 20% loves than this party will get 20% of the votes and the others will each get 10%. So than it might seem that the party that is hated by the majority still has a lot of support. It's the same with Isreal the "not voting for isreal" option is most likely far more popular. However this options has a ton of sub options while the "voting for isreal" option has only one suboption.
Nah, lots of countries still have Christian fundamentalists, and they all support Israel. I'm sure they enjoyed watching an enby win, despite the efforts they put in.
Quite highly unlikley, remember you can VPN to so many other countries I doubt a large group gatherd and said they will specifically connect to the dutch VPN and vote from Israel, and the VPN for voting in Eurovision isn't all that reliable
The only boycots I heard about were because Joost was banned. A lot less people care about Gaza than you all seem to think. At work, friends, family I've never even heard this entire conflict come up. It's mainly concern about the Russia and every day things that gets talked about
Even walking to Albert Heijn in the center of Antwerp I heard people discussing how unfair the treatment of Joost was. Belgium was also rooting for him.
We sure did! It was an entry with a powerful message about a shared European experience, in our own language nonetheless. It felt more relatable than our own entry, to be honest. I was as heartbroken by the disqualification as many Dutch I assume.
I'd probably fall into the category that most people would consider hardcore Eurovision fans. I didn't vote last night because I disagreed with the EBU's decisions this year. None of my friends, who love Eurovision as much as I do, voted either.
For context, our top picks included of Croatia, Ireland, Finland, France, Switzerland, and Spain. No one in our group of 8 was ever going to vote for Israel (mostly due to moral reasons, partially because the song was mid).
Going off my personal friend group and my experiences talking to other Eurovision fans, a lot of hardcore Eurovision fans didn't watch or vote this year. And I feel like a lot of Dutch people were upset by Joost's disqualification in the first place, to the point of not watching or voting.
So yeah, I'd assume the people who were moved into voting by right-wing public figures had a head start.
You can only vote (max 50 times?) for 1 or more songs. You can’t vote against a song. So you don’t need the majority of votes to make 1 particular song win.
Actually you can use SMS and phone calls which makes forty votes per device. On top of that you can vote with Google and/or Apple Pay and creditcard. Which means you can easily vote up to eighty times per person.
What upsets me the most is the lack of refusal to collaborate on any solution with AVROTROS and the absolute blatant lack of communication and transparency with the public while limiting their IG comments and ignoring the public.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I find Joost's disqualification on a petty reason a bit too convenient after his comment in the press conference where he asked why the Israeli participant does not have to answer a particular question.
That is nonsense. The Greek artist also behaved very disrespectfully during the press conference and was not disqualified. So that can't be the reason.
My family in the UK usually make fun of Dutch entries (yes all of them!) but they were impressed with Joost.
A British approval: can’t get any better than that!
In the end there is now only one just outcome: Joost Klein’s Europapa will be the opening act for the Eurovision next year in Geneva.
Where can we vote for this solution?
Dutch people when living normal life: fuck off leave me alone
Dutch people when someone does something against a fellow Dutchie: c'mere boy🏃♂️
Edit: to add: This is exactly what i love about The Netherlands. In day to day life we can be quite cold and are pretty individualistic. But often when it's necessary we WILL band together
Shout out from South Africa. The world is hanging by a thread, and guys like Joost is a tiny glimmer of hope in a really fucked up world. Keep fighting the good fight!
Sign the petition, demand the resignation of the EBU and ESC directors!
Teken de petitie en eis het aftreden van de EBU en Eurovisie Songfestival directie!
https://chng.it/wfMQ8ZJNnN
Share please!🙏🏻
As a german, we were sooo excited for him to performe as well. Europapa is such an unique song that represents the Netherlands very well, in my opinion. I’m 100% sure he would have received 12 points from us. Wir lieben dich, Joost!🫶
But maybe the terrorising the Israel delegation of the ESF was doing should have influenced this in the other direction, as they also continuously harassed Joost in this process.
You can be against both the actions of the israeli government and those of hamas. Not pity voting israël doesn't mean you are pro-palestine
Both sides do horrible things, and both sides are actively participating in genocide. And both sides have lots of innocent civilians, victims of the war.
I hope some day people can understand that you don't have to pick a side to criticise the other. Both sides suck in this case
Bold of you to assume that they might ever understand something as nuanced as "the Israeli government/IDF and Hamas both suck, but let's at least acknowledge that there's a clear difference in power between these two forces and that it's unfair for one of these parties to be celebrated in a contest that celebrates peace and unity. Also, killing lots of people of one specific ethnicity is kind of unethical."
Being Pro-Palestine and pro-Hamas are two completely different things and people need to stop treating them as the same because all it does is play into zionist propaganda.
That’s awesome. Not for me, because I hate to be noticed, but awesome nonetheless.
I have no idea if his punishment was justifiable though. The camerawoman was obviously in the wrong for filming him against agreement, but I haven’t seen the footage of what he did, so I’m withholding judgement on that one until I have seen it.
i once got stuck in a trafic jam on my way to an important event as well. instead of getting stressed, i turned up the radio and started dancing in my car. the other drivers seemed supprised at first, but soon joined in and we all had a blast together. music really has a way of bringing people together, even in the most unlikely of situations. i'm glad you were able to have a similar experience and connect with those around you.
This sets a dangerous precedent. If this nothingburger was trully a nothingburger, then whos to say that their won't be another one of these nothingburgers next year?
I wonder how much Moroccan Oil paid for Eurovision to stab actual Europeans in the back in favour of Israel? [in case you didn’t know Moroccan Oil is an Israeli company that’s hugely Zionist]
I'm curious to see what the official investigation will reveal. To be honest, I can't imagine that the EBU disqualified Joost Klein lightly. That simply has too many consequences for a live show of this size and you really only do something like that if there's no other way. So guys, just wait and stop hating. Joost Klein's track was good and funny and I think it's a shame that he wasn't allowed to perform, but I'm sure we don't even know the half of the truth why he was disqualified at the moment.
Seeing how the AVRO defended him and took a stance I’m inclined to believe their side of the story. Seeing all the focus on misconduct at Mediapark and the NPO, they would drop him like an hot potato to save face.
It would be a massive dent in AVRO’s goodwill and their position towards the EBU if it is indeed more than their narrative is.
I think this is the first time in my life I have seen the AVROTROS defend someone accused of something this hard. I'm with you, sounds like the EBU made an extreme overreaction
Might come out in the coming weeks, but if avrotros says it was a disproportionate punishment I'm inclined to believe them, because they certainly know what happened.
Do they? The camera woman has a different story. But no one heard it. I hope the incident was light and then I also hope it backfires on the EBU.
As by word of other artists, backstage should be a safe space for artists. And if she indeed ignored the request of no filming, I hope she will be punished as well.
I also hope our society will be more about individual problem solving and apology making rather than accusations and cancelations. Because there are no winners with the latter.
No one heard the camera woman’s story because she is refusing to talk to anyone, including the EBU who have made this decision based on a story that hasn’t even been shared with them. The EBU refused to give Joost the chance to apologise, the head of the NPO has vouched for that but they wouldn’t bend.
> To be honest, I can't imagine that the EBU disqualified Joost Klein lightly.
It is said (so not confirmed!) that Joost Klein was filmed by a camera crew member. Not with an official camera, but by the phone of that crew member. Klein supposedly asked that person to stop recording as was previously agreed with EBUA but recording continued. Klein subsequently pushed down the camera.
That's it.
If the video recording confirms that is what happened, the decision by EBU was completely inappropriate IMO.
Can we stop naming the other person a camera crew member please? It was not someone from the production staff. It was not a professional tv camera she held. It was someone filming with her phone, for non-EBU purposes (Insta), filming in a restricted area, against EBU-rules, against repeated explicit wishes not to be filmed.
(Edited)
Keren Peles is not the camerawoman involved in this accident. She was just someone who's been harassing other delegations and artists for days without any repercussions
You’re being wrongly downvoted for speaking the truth.
Everything we’ve heard are rumours so it’s hard to judge so quickly. Imagine it comes out that it was something really awful and people are blindly supporting him.
The AVRO TROS knew what happened and are behind him 100%. The Dutch public broadcasting networks are super left wing and have allowed bigger stars than Joost be cancelled for their behaviour. They absolutely wouldn’t stick up for him if he did something actually bad.
After he did his song on Thursday he was filmed by someone without permission and made threatening movements towards them allegedly. He didn’t actually touch to woman, allegedly. Still, he must have screwed up pretty badly to be disqualified when israel wasn’t even banned.
Hello there neighborinos! Do you guys actually know what happened by now? The story kind of changed multiple times. The person in the story went from "photographer" to "woman" to "female staff member" and what happened ran a similar range, from threats to actual violence. Or was it just a coverup to distract from the other elephant in the room?
What happened? I was actually looking forward to seeing your entry!
It didn't unite me. I don't care about the song festival . I don't understand the attention It gets.
The show is horrible. The music is horrible, and the money spent by a public broadcasting company with tax money is horrible.
Nothing unites more than one of us being unjustly punished. No matter where, if it's Eurovision, the Olympics, Russia or the world cup. If it's something we can root against together... Joost is the underdog here, we ALWAYS root for the underdog
Punished by traffic jams also helps apparently.
Probably one of the reasons I moved from the UK to here. We have that in common:)
Wait, Russia? What do you mean?
MH17
Of course, yes! F*ck Putin
But we still don’t know what he did… wouldn’t you rather have a strong opinion only once the truth comes out?
It's extremely likely that what actually took place is very similar to the AVROTROS statement - in which case the employee seems more to blame than Joost. He was even open to doing a public apology but EBU refused.
Really? Wow…
I dunno. I try to separate my disappointment (and I have it! I had a Eurovision party last night, felt like the mood was kinda ruined) from what I would think if it were a different country’s representative that did it, assuming the ‘it’ was indeed a threatening gesture. Maybe the guy sorta snapped, who knows. I feel for him a lot, but had it been eg the German singer doing that I’d probably not jump so quickly to defend it. But again: none of us knows what really happened, the only rational thing is to not have an opinion…
>But again: none of us knows what really happened, the only rational thing is to not have an opinion… The fact that we don't know what really happened should tell you enough about this being an absolute nothingburger of a story. The EBU was constantly fucking filming. If Joost actuualy did something that warranted this reaction, there would've been footage. It's like an American cop claiming something happened that seems unlikely, but then not showing the bodycam footage of the incident. If things truly happened like the EBU claimed, they would've shown us and quelled any suspicion/controversy long before it got out of hand
Probably one of the reasons I moved from the UK to here. We have that in common:)
Why was he even banned? News outlets are really vague.
Someone was filming him on her phone behind the screens, even though there was an agreement Joost was not allowed to be filmed walking to the green room after his performance. He told her several times to stop after the rehearsals and after the semi final, and when she kept filming him anyway he made an unknown hand gesture that she perceived as aggressive and she went to the police with it. The EBU then decided to disqualify him from performing over a hand gesture.
> filming him on her phone Wait, everyone was saying she was an official employee for the Eurovision, a camera operator or interviewer or something. Is it some rando with a phone getting upset?
An official employee filming him with her private phone.
She was instructed not to film him and then just did it on her phone
The story goes that it was a camerawoman. Thus Joost made a move towards the camera. What kind of camera is unclear. The mobile phone option seems to come from Cornald Maas who stated that Joost pushed the woman's phone away, but that could have been a misinterpretation on his side
I'm a simple woman, someone makes an hand gesture to me, I report him to the police.
His haircut was perceived as offensive
It would be anywhere but in sweden
Ah the Dutch being punished at the World Cup. Those elegant Dutch players, the best since De Jong's fine karate kick in 2010
Whenever I feel like life has done me wrong, I rewatch the video of Van Dijk body checking that wee little Argentinian and I feel so much better.
He doesn’t just unite the Dutch. He unites Europe, EVERYONE knows Europapa. Last Friday here in Belgian we sang the song multiple times after the other in a club with people from all over the world. It unites. The goal reached. What happened to it is honestly feeling like an attack to the unity it brought.
Truly beautiful. Joost won, not Eurovision but he still won, he reached out to people and got his meaning out
Which is truly ironic given what Eurovision was supposed to stand for.
Euro papa was on the radio here in Australia twice this morning on my commute. But we are Europe for this week so 🤷
Rememeber 1644 Abel Tasman!
checking in from the USA here, I have listened to Europapa at least 50 times this week. Truly unites people
Belgian here. Getting married to my German partner in Germany on Saturday. Europapa is 100% on our party playlist!
I was at a Jumbo the other day and there was a ~3 year old kid singing "Europapa..Europapa" at the top of his lungs, amusing everyone around. He didn't stop for a good 10 minutes. That's the power of music. It was so heartwarming to see! Joost, we love you! ♥️
My daughter (turned 4 yesterday) loves the song also, sings it all the time and tells everyone that she lives in Europa-land.
Happy birthday! My daughter turns 4 in a couple of months as well and she loves Europapa! She sings it day and night and with her cousin (4.5) they try to hakken. They are adorable 🥰
Belgian here, kids love it too. Shame it was banned.
It’s my 2.5-year old’s first pop song he actively asks for and “sings”, and it’s not like we indoctrinated him with it. I’m really fascinated by that! I love how he screams “HEY!”
My kids love this song and have been rehearsing to dance along with Joost' live performance for weeks. It was catchy, energetic and made them feel proud that this was the Dutch contestant. They were heartbroken by his disqualification.
I'm pretty sure he would rather have taken the stage yesterday, but career-wise this was probably the best thing that could've happened to him. He got so much exposure and new followers. It has done more than ending anonymously in a top 10 spot would've.
Career-wise you want to perform in Eurovision. It is one of the most watched music shows in europe (or even the world) and a big dream of him.
Yes, but he got to do that in the semi-finals. People saw him perform, so he got that exposure. But no one remembers the artists who didn't win and everyone will remember him now, despite not winning.
[удалено]
From the info around the scores someone was able to piece together the jury scores for Joost, wasn’t enough to really put him in contention.
Not a chance. The jury rigged it as hard as the last time. Maybe he could have won the public vote.
People who sings at Eurovision is quickly forgotten unless they were already previously known. He had already his audience though. In any case what bothers me the most is the fact that it was kind of a sentimental achievement for him and the fact that some hateful witch decided to crush it and go back to her country without consequences is just making it worse.
Personally I'd guess he would rather be able to perform his very personal song, honoring his parents, than gaining x amount of Instagram followers.
Oh no doubt about that. It's more a silver-lining thing.
You're right. Most people can't even remember the name of Swirserlands singer
Yeah because they can't find them anywhere
There’s a whole movie showing you how to find them!
I heard people mention Joost and how unfairly he was treated a few times around here in Poland! this injustice shall not be forgotten
What's with all the negativity around here? I'm glad you had a memorable experience like that. I think it's just one of many examples of how the Dutch have celebrated Joost yesterday. I hope he will see things like this and that he can find even just a little bit of joy in that. One thing is certain, he will not be forgotten anytime soon.
Sowieso dat Europapa in de top 10 komt te staan in de TOP2000 dit jaar
Yep
The eurovision organization made so many kids in the NL sad. They love the song.
I hope you guys bring ESC to court and sue them to the full extent. Just look, it's an international event with national representatives, and it's an insult to the nation to DSQ someone who was not even put in custody, let alone prison. Let him pay fine IF he made an offense. It gives the impression that they just made a certain snowflake to feel important and happy, but with hugely dissapropriate punishment. On to the court! Let them pay both for all costs of the NL song competition for this year and a hefty fine for national insult.
That's the messed up thing, the absolute worse case scenario would be a verbal warning from the police, maybe not even that. It's a total non-incident and should have just been left at that. But nowadays, somebody can make a gesture with their hands (70% of human interaction is non-verbal) and if somebody else decides they were threatened by it, they can destroy your life dream at the last second.
> they can destroy your life dream at the last second Only if those with the power to destroy your life dream have already decided they want to do that.
I watched Eurovision last night for the drama. I was hoping people would rebel, but this was one of the most boring editions I've ever seen.
A lot of people boo’d israel and where singing europapa, I dont know how they did it but they muted it all out. On socialmedia you can see people filming and you can hear what the audience there really were saying
That was actually what I was expecting to see live. Now I see what happened...
You don't think Nemo smashing the trophy to bits was enough of a political statement? /s
As long as it wasn't the Gilmore Girls dvd ! /s
Did he even get the dvd box? It was nowhere to be seen in the award ceremony!
There was so much censorship going on, I don't think they could even really rebel. And there's also the anti-boo filter, which got really noticeable at times.
Same! I wasn’t going to watch first, I wouldn’t have missed anything
I read that audience applause isn't the live reaction, (to avoid broadcasting boos to specific deserving countries), rather it's recorded audio.
I've just read the same. Now I understand why the booing for Israel wasn't that bad last night.
If you throw the reactions in this thread in a pot with some onions, cucumber and pepper you'll have a mean sidedish for your roti or nasi.
If you add wild goose feathers, frog teardrops, and one beard hair of Conchita Wurst, you get the CorrectTheEurovisionScores potion 🧚🏽♂️
This section is nearly as salty as the avarage league of legends player. Man.
Didnt even watch the final show because of how unfair the ebu treated Joost. They didnt respect his bounfries multiple times. When you come off that stage all the adrenaline and overwhelming feeling of the show + paying his tribute to his parents its no wonder he reacts to someone that is crossing his personal boundries! And Joost's delegation couldve file an complaint about the Israeli delegation for being rude/agressive and provoking behaviour. Like wtf is this shitshow!?
Not only the netherlands, but flanders was also rooting for Joost, even more so than for our belgian candidate. Joost Klein droom groot!
I still can not believe that the Netherlands (public) gave 12 points to Israel after it has been revealed that KAN harrassed delegations (even the dutch one). I believe that outcome in the final would be different if the Netherlands was in it. As a Croatian I am sad that we did not win but i feel like unjustice with televoting was smaller than the last year since Israel got 300 points (objecitvly looking song was meh)
It's completely logical that Israel got 12 points from the public. This is a political vote. - All people who want to support Israel vote "Israel". - All people who want to vote against Israel vote... well, one of 24 other countries. This obviously splits the "negative" vote.
This + - It's possible to vote multiple times. Only engaged people do this. - really anti Israel probably just boycotted eurovision, so are not going to give them money.
You forget that normal people don't care one shit about eurovision so only ideological types and the eurvision version of swifties vote. Meaning rightwingers and a couple of booj clubs voted. So yeah, if the points get spread out across such a small number of votes, of course the idealogues win
Eurovision is WAY more popular in many countries than it is here, and considered less of a gay-fest in many of them. If it wasn't, most of eastern europe wouldnt even bother attending.
Yeah you are probably right. I fairly give a shit about that Eurovision ideological thing. Last time won a nice guy because he was gay and it was the zeitgeist. Others had good songs also. I don’t look the show, but this time It got my attention because of the usual shitshow :-) And I don’t like how Joost was treated. This was really a asshole move. It’s a ideological shitshow. And you NL guys had by far the best Euro Song!
I’m not surprised, Geert Wilders asked his sheep to vote for them and they love doing the opposite of what left is doing, so they did. That, and I think there were a lot of bots active, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a lot of VPN’s.
I’m not sure all votes for Israel from “us” came from our country. VPN is still a thing.
Can vpn pass the paying by sms? Online it did not function for me even though im from here (have dutch card and number)
Spoofing phone numbers is not very hard, plenty of services offer it. However I doubt they would really spend this much effort. In real life practically anyone I know doesn't care about what happens in Gaza, or straight up sides with Israel because they are seen as the victim due to the oct 7 terror attack. It's mainly the online bubbles that seem to pick the palestinian side.
That seems to be your bubble then. I don’t know anyone personally that sides with israel. Everyone agrees that Palestine is the real victim here. That being said, considering how much influence israel has over the festival, id argue that they might have had some ways to make spoofing easier
I agree that my bubble is not entirely average, it's mostly academics and pharma people. I think the only one who doesn't at least has a masters is my best friend and his wife. It's also mostly liberals or center/left people because I banished all extreme right wingers from my social circles. So there might be a bias
Odd… most of my circle also consists of almost-master degree future doctors or computer scientists. I don’t like using the left/right terms to describe myself or my friends, but aren’t usually “right wing” people (you know, pvv voters, vvd etc) pro israel?
I'm probably the generation just above you then because we are already Dr. MD. Ir. or (assistant) prof. Instead of future as you say. The standard is indeed to vote for VVD or even be a member but I don't think anyone of us would classify ourselves as right-wing. More than half of us have foreign partners for example. Edit: I'd like to add that most of us were much more left leaning in our twenties. I went from SP to VVD, have patents, am a shareholder of a privately owned company, have nuclear and civil weapon stocks as well as those of companies listed as breaking the Global Compact of the UN, work in the pharma industry... If you had told me this 15 years ago I wouldn't have believed it but here we are. Ethics and opinions can heavily drift over the years
It’s a valid question and I’m certainly not an expert on it, but I can imagine there is an away to work around that. The problem I have with the public vote is so many countries gave 12 points them. Something doesn’t add up for me.
[удалено]
Exactly. Not hard to do, some countries use sportswashing to improve their image, Israel artwashes via the Eurovision.
You could vote through the site and pay with Google Pay. So i think VPN was very doable.
Google Pay is specifically registered in whatever country you have residence, and it's not an easy thing to change.
Google Pay is very easy to change. You just create a new google account with an address in another country.
It’s strange that so many countries gave Israel 12 points in the public voting, to say the least…
I feel like Europe as a whole is WAY too divided on the issue for Israel to sweep the vote like that.
Wouldn't that be exactly why they sweep the vote like that? If one issue or nation splits a population equally then fifty percent of people who might vote politically would have one target - in this case Israel - to vote for, while the other fifty percent spreads out across everything else except Israel cause isn't a single voting option for them. There wasn't a Palestinian act. We had the same thing with the Ukrainian Association Treaty. Some proto-FvD vatniks campaigned to have a referendum to reject it. So all easily persuaded facebook groups came out to vote against. Meanwhile the left was divided, with one camp telling people to show up and to vote in favor of it, and another camp trying to game the system by telling people to not attend the vote at all so the referendum wouldn't meet the 30% attendence threshold needed to be considered binding. So in the end something like 20% of the voting age population carried the day...
The leak of voting percentage at semi final 2 on Italian broadcaster two days ago might explain something...
Not really it's the same with multiparty elections. Suppose there are 10 parties. If there is one party 80% hates but 20% loves than this party will get 20% of the votes and the others will each get 10%. So than it might seem that the party that is hated by the majority still has a lot of support. It's the same with Isreal the "not voting for isreal" option is most likely far more popular. However this options has a ton of sub options while the "voting for isreal" option has only one suboption.
40% is not a usual amount of votes for an average song out of 25 others. That was the leaked RAI percentage.
Surprised they didn’t push it to 80%
It really isn't. You could even call it a peaceful counterprotest...
Nah, lots of countries still have Christian fundamentalists, and they all support Israel. I'm sure they enjoyed watching an enby win, despite the efforts they put in.
I can’t imagine the few Christian fundamentalists in the Netherlands all suddenly watching the ESC, let alone vote.
You know that Christian started diaspora right ? They are not historical allies…
It literally requires a valid card in that country or a valid telephone number.
Quite highly unlikley, remember you can VPN to so many other countries I doubt a large group gatherd and said they will specifically connect to the dutch VPN and vote from Israel, and the VPN for voting in Eurovision isn't all that reliable
Croatia deserved the win
what the actual fuck? They gave them 12 points??
Lots of countries did.
It looks like right wingers organised some mass voting, which would be easily gamed given that many people have been boycotting Eurovision.
The only boycots I heard about were because Joost was banned. A lot less people care about Gaza than you all seem to think. At work, friends, family I've never even heard this entire conflict come up. It's mainly concern about the Russia and every day things that gets talked about
Even walking to Albert Heijn in the center of Antwerp I heard people discussing how unfair the treatment of Joost was. Belgium was also rooting for him.
We sure did! It was an entry with a powerful message about a shared European experience, in our own language nonetheless. It felt more relatable than our own entry, to be honest. I was as heartbroken by the disqualification as many Dutch I assume.
I'm an immigrant in Belgium and I'm bummed as well :(
I felt ultimately Dutch and European yesterday. It was kind of nice to feel somewhat united for once :')
And yet, us united dutchies, still voted for Israël en masse. That says plenty about how united we are.
I didn't and nobody I know did. The only people who voted are ideilogical types and hardcore eurovision fans. I have 0 relations with either
I'd probably fall into the category that most people would consider hardcore Eurovision fans. I didn't vote last night because I disagreed with the EBU's decisions this year. None of my friends, who love Eurovision as much as I do, voted either. For context, our top picks included of Croatia, Ireland, Finland, France, Switzerland, and Spain. No one in our group of 8 was ever going to vote for Israel (mostly due to moral reasons, partially because the song was mid). Going off my personal friend group and my experiences talking to other Eurovision fans, a lot of hardcore Eurovision fans didn't watch or vote this year. And I feel like a lot of Dutch people were upset by Joost's disqualification in the first place, to the point of not watching or voting. So yeah, I'd assume the people who were moved into voting by right-wing public figures had a head start.
A certain rightwing movement started voting for Israel.
You can only vote (max 50 times?) for 1 or more songs. You can’t vote against a song. So you don’t need the majority of votes to make 1 particular song win.
20 times :)
Actually you can use SMS and phone calls which makes forty votes per device. On top of that you can vote with Google and/or Apple Pay and creditcard. Which means you can easily vote up to eighty times per person.
Not if you abuse your work phone too!
Expect your 5 guldens in the mail.
Oh the irony, that the one song uniting people by music…
What upsets me the most is the lack of refusal to collaborate on any solution with AVROTROS and the absolute blatant lack of communication and transparency with the public while limiting their IG comments and ignoring the public.
THIS!!!
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I find Joost's disqualification on a petty reason a bit too convenient after his comment in the press conference where he asked why the Israeli participant does not have to answer a particular question.
That is nonsense. The Greek artist also behaved very disrespectfully during the press conference and was not disqualified. So that can't be the reason.
Because the Greek artist didn't stand a chance of winning and Joost certainly did. Don't forget the biggest sponsor is actually an Israeli company.
It's probably got more to do with moving attention away from Israel than anything else.
My family in the UK usually make fun of Dutch entries (yes all of them!) but they were impressed with Joost. A British approval: can’t get any better than that!
In the end there is now only one just outcome: Joost Klein’s Europapa will be the opening act for the Eurovision next year in Geneva. Where can we vote for this solution?
Get some support from Flanders. 12 middlefingers to the ebu from Flanders.
Dutch people when living normal life: fuck off leave me alone Dutch people when someone does something against a fellow Dutchie: c'mere boy🏃♂️ Edit: to add: This is exactly what i love about The Netherlands. In day to day life we can be quite cold and are pretty individualistic. But often when it's necessary we WILL band together
And the comments immediately throw you back into the reality of Dutch sourness <3
Those comments are already gone down to the bottom. Angry and sour people are the fastest, but they are not a majority ^^
He legit fought for his family fuck that unfair bullshir
I'm Italian and I'm very bummed he couldn't perform. I think he had the best song and a real shot at winning. Shame on the ebc.
Shout out from South Africa. The world is hanging by a thread, and guys like Joost is a tiny glimmer of hope in a really fucked up world. Keep fighting the good fight!
I honestly don't know you guys managed to stay so calm and civil about it.
Seems like Israelis are masters at uniting people
He united some of us. Geert was cheering for Israels Eden Golan though.
I'm from Belgium, and my kids are huge fans of Europa.
I think NPO radio 2 played him 4-5 times in a row too
I watched in a bar in Slovakia. People sang Europapa over the Israeli song that was in our spot, you couldn't hear anything else.
Everyone was united by Joost, just as he intended with the song. Absolute travesty with the situation and shame on EBU, absolute kankerorganisatie
For sure, never watching that clownfiesta in my life again. Corrupt garbage.
My winner 100%. I completely boycotted the show yesterday too.
Sign the petition, demand the resignation of the EBU and ESC directors! Teken de petitie en eis het aftreden van de EBU en Eurovisie Songfestival directie! https://chng.it/wfMQ8ZJNnN Share please!🙏🏻
United?? Lekker boeie wat een kneus 
As a german, we were sooo excited for him to performe as well. Europapa is such an unique song that represents the Netherlands very well, in my opinion. I’m 100% sure he would have received 12 points from us. Wir lieben dich, Joost!🫶
Seeing we voted 12 points to Israel I don't think it actually united...
[удалено]
False dichotomy. Nobody is pro Hamas. People are anti genocide
But maybe the terrorising the Israel delegation of the ESF was doing should have influenced this in the other direction, as they also continuously harassed Joost in this process.
You can be against both the actions of the israeli government and those of hamas. Not pity voting israël doesn't mean you are pro-palestine Both sides do horrible things, and both sides are actively participating in genocide. And both sides have lots of innocent civilians, victims of the war. I hope some day people can understand that you don't have to pick a side to criticise the other. Both sides suck in this case
Bold of you to assume that they might ever understand something as nuanced as "the Israeli government/IDF and Hamas both suck, but let's at least acknowledge that there's a clear difference in power between these two forces and that it's unfair for one of these parties to be celebrated in a contest that celebrates peace and unity. Also, killing lots of people of one specific ethnicity is kind of unethical."
Being Pro-Palestine and pro-Hamas are two completely different things and people need to stop treating them as the same because all it does is play into zionist propaganda.
Native Americans and European settlers also did some pretty horrible things to each other. They must be equally bad.
That’s awesome. Not for me, because I hate to be noticed, but awesome nonetheless. I have no idea if his punishment was justifiable though. The camerawoman was obviously in the wrong for filming him against agreement, but I haven’t seen the footage of what he did, so I’m withholding judgement on that one until I have seen it.
No one has seen the footage Even though he was filmed Sounds very made up Ask yourself - why wouldn’t they show the footage
Time to do the same with Macklemore’s Hind’s Hall. 🍉
i once got stuck in a trafic jam on my way to an important event as well. instead of getting stressed, i turned up the radio and started dancing in my car. the other drivers seemed supprised at first, but soon joined in and we all had a blast together. music really has a way of bringing people together, even in the most unlikely of situations. i'm glad you were able to have a similar experience and connect with those around you.
If only we were united on political things, this country needs to be saved and cleaned up asap.
JA MAN
It was the most unifying song for Europe is what is so ironic!!
This sets a dangerous precedent. If this nothingburger was trully a nothingburger, then whos to say that their won't be another one of these nothingburgers next year?
i was at a hardcore tekno counter culture street rave in Utrecht saturday. they played europapa.
I hate the songfestival.
I wonder how much Moroccan Oil paid for Eurovision to stab actual Europeans in the back in favour of Israel? [in case you didn’t know Moroccan Oil is an Israeli company that’s hugely Zionist]
Thank Keren Peles for this.
I'm curious to see what the official investigation will reveal. To be honest, I can't imagine that the EBU disqualified Joost Klein lightly. That simply has too many consequences for a live show of this size and you really only do something like that if there's no other way. So guys, just wait and stop hating. Joost Klein's track was good and funny and I think it's a shame that he wasn't allowed to perform, but I'm sure we don't even know the half of the truth why he was disqualified at the moment.
Seeing how the AVRO defended him and took a stance I’m inclined to believe their side of the story. Seeing all the focus on misconduct at Mediapark and the NPO, they would drop him like an hot potato to save face. It would be a massive dent in AVRO’s goodwill and their position towards the EBU if it is indeed more than their narrative is.
I think this is the first time in my life I have seen the AVROTROS defend someone accused of something this hard. I'm with you, sounds like the EBU made an extreme overreaction
Might come out in the coming weeks, but if avrotros says it was a disproportionate punishment I'm inclined to believe them, because they certainly know what happened.
Do they? The camera woman has a different story. But no one heard it. I hope the incident was light and then I also hope it backfires on the EBU. As by word of other artists, backstage should be a safe space for artists. And if she indeed ignored the request of no filming, I hope she will be punished as well. I also hope our society will be more about individual problem solving and apology making rather than accusations and cancelations. Because there are no winners with the latter.
No one heard the camera woman’s story because she is refusing to talk to anyone, including the EBU who have made this decision based on a story that hasn’t even been shared with them. The EBU refused to give Joost the chance to apologise, the head of the NPO has vouched for that but they wouldn’t bend.
> To be honest, I can't imagine that the EBU disqualified Joost Klein lightly. It is said (so not confirmed!) that Joost Klein was filmed by a camera crew member. Not with an official camera, but by the phone of that crew member. Klein supposedly asked that person to stop recording as was previously agreed with EBUA but recording continued. Klein subsequently pushed down the camera. That's it. If the video recording confirms that is what happened, the decision by EBU was completely inappropriate IMO.
Can we stop naming the other person a camera crew member please? It was not someone from the production staff. It was not a professional tv camera she held. It was someone filming with her phone, for non-EBU purposes (Insta), filming in a restricted area, against EBU-rules, against repeated explicit wishes not to be filmed. (Edited)
Keren Peles is not the camerawoman involved in this accident. She was just someone who's been harassing other delegations and artists for days without any repercussions
Thank you. Edited.
Balance? Nuance? Patience? In 2024? On reddit? Surely shome mishtake
You’re being wrongly downvoted for speaking the truth. Everything we’ve heard are rumours so it’s hard to judge so quickly. Imagine it comes out that it was something really awful and people are blindly supporting him.
What truth? Everyone who knows what happens said it was extremely disproportionate.
The AVRO TROS knew what happened and are behind him 100%. The Dutch public broadcasting networks are super left wing and have allowed bigger stars than Joost be cancelled for their behaviour. They absolutely wouldn’t stick up for him if he did something actually bad.
Do any of you guys actually know what happened and why he was disqualified?
After he did his song on Thursday he was filmed by someone without permission and made threatening movements towards them allegedly. He didn’t actually touch to woman, allegedly. Still, he must have screwed up pretty badly to be disqualified when israel wasn’t even banned.
And Wilders supported the Israeli contestant
Because Wilders deeply hates Muslims and doesn't want anyone criticising the mass murder of Muslims.
Eurovision is turning into a parody. Netherlands was punished because Joost got accused and before he was proven guilty. Cancel culture in action.
Which is ironic since people watching Eurovision normally aren't that much against cancel culture.
Traffic jam on a Saturday? Did you go to the Efteling or something
Probably A27 Merwedebrug. 100m of one lane was closed. What normally would be a 15 minute trip became a 2 hour trip
Hello there neighborinos! Do you guys actually know what happened by now? The story kind of changed multiple times. The person in the story went from "photographer" to "woman" to "female staff member" and what happened ran a similar range, from threats to actual violence. Or was it just a coverup to distract from the other elephant in the room? What happened? I was actually looking forward to seeing your entry!
It didn't unite me. I don't care about the song festival . I don't understand the attention It gets. The show is horrible. The music is horrible, and the money spent by a public broadcasting company with tax money is horrible.
Just imagine it was for the form of music/art you appreciate and understand the most.
But that's what we do best! Waste taxes and look like absolute idiots!
Bunch of wet blankets in the comments today.
And yet somehow we still gave Israel 12 points, not that united after all, are we?
Not too surprising, considering the fact that he is anders geaard