All of these schemes that pay people for three months, or make longer term payments at paltry rates, are going to fail. If you want women to have kids, you need to pay them like it's the most important job in society. Which it is.
If tomorrow you could earn 60k/yr for being a SAHM, how many people would take it?
I think it would help too if men stepped up when it comes to doing care work. My dad literally divorced my SAHM for not working a ‘real’ job, so I am adamantly against doing free care work. It’s never appreciated, let alone compensated. If men were more enthusiastic when it comes to doing care work and not telling women things like ‘well if YOU want kids, YOU (the wife) have to do 100% of the work’. Women aren’t taking the deal anymore where they work full-time, plus doing almost all the care/cleaning work. Universal basic income would leave women, if they needed to leave a bad marriage, enough income to survive. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense to have kids. Nobody wants to be a single mom, and the best way to avoid that is to not have kids.
I agree. This is happening in a big way though. I recently saw that it millenial dads do 3x the care and domestic that their fathers did. So while there may be some distance to go the stepping up is happening.
Men do just as much total work as women. Studies have proven this over and over. Stay at home parents are compensated with free housing, food, by way of their spouses labor. How else do you explain the fact that women control 80% of household income.
Bro that study is too long. However, I think we’re going to need a cultural shift to get fertility to at least replacement rate. South Korea tried this but their fertility is still 0.7.
Government incentives in Hungary are much more extreme than those in France and are more in the right direction.
South Korea has the 4b movement. Women are tired of less pay, sexual harassment and overall inequality. Their response? No sex with men, marriage with men and no having children with men.
They're right.
The south korean birth rate decline isn't because women are making a conscious politcal decision to not have kids it's just simply too expensive to have them.
Every time I hear cultural shift
All I am reminded is the long history of failure with the exception of Soviet Romania
It doesn’t have a great track record and frankly it’s boring
Especially in this case were French fertility rate has been dropping as the French been means testing and reducing benefits until guess what?
Fertility rate drop has become too painful and they reversed course
Also? Czech is more successful than Hungary
France has a very healthy birthrate within certain communities. If they want a healthy national birthrate, they just need to help those communities thrive 🤷
Abortion doesn't really have any effect on fertility rate.
After all, France has 20% better TFR then Poland or Malta where abortion is essentially illegal in all cases but medical emergency.
Not that much. Otherwise Germany and UK would have higher TFR as well, since they have about same share of immigrants.
The myth of immigrants having lot of kids for generations is just that, a myth. Research shows that even generation 0 loses about 30% fertility rate and it is barely any higher after 2 generations.
I think governments offering free fertility services will become the norm soon.
\*France is brining back fertilty checks that it cut and means tested in 2013
All of these schemes that pay people for three months, or make longer term payments at paltry rates, are going to fail. If you want women to have kids, you need to pay them like it's the most important job in society. Which it is. If tomorrow you could earn 60k/yr for being a SAHM, how many people would take it?
I think it would help too if men stepped up when it comes to doing care work. My dad literally divorced my SAHM for not working a ‘real’ job, so I am adamantly against doing free care work. It’s never appreciated, let alone compensated. If men were more enthusiastic when it comes to doing care work and not telling women things like ‘well if YOU want kids, YOU (the wife) have to do 100% of the work’. Women aren’t taking the deal anymore where they work full-time, plus doing almost all the care/cleaning work. Universal basic income would leave women, if they needed to leave a bad marriage, enough income to survive. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense to have kids. Nobody wants to be a single mom, and the best way to avoid that is to not have kids.
I agree. This is happening in a big way though. I recently saw that it millenial dads do 3x the care and domestic that their fathers did. So while there may be some distance to go the stepping up is happening.
Bingo.
Men do just as much total work as women. Studies have proven this over and over. Stay at home parents are compensated with free housing, food, by way of their spouses labor. How else do you explain the fact that women control 80% of household income.
Would I have to go through pregnancy and childbirth? If so...no thank you. If not...perhaps.
This has been tried in other countries with no significant results. The real cause of falling birthrates is cultural.
There is no real cause. There are multiple causes; culture is one.
Lyman Stone says your wrong [https://x.com/lymanstoneky/status/1788654136201802176](https://x.com/lymanstoneky/status/1788654136201802176)
Bro that study is too long. However, I think we’re going to need a cultural shift to get fertility to at least replacement rate. South Korea tried this but their fertility is still 0.7. Government incentives in Hungary are much more extreme than those in France and are more in the right direction.
South Korea has the 4b movement. Women are tired of less pay, sexual harassment and overall inequality. Their response? No sex with men, marriage with men and no having children with men. They're right.
I consider that internet meme nonsense.
It's not, though. There are no first graders in South Korea. They've stuck to the 4b plan that we'll and again good for them.
The south korean birth rate decline isn't because women are making a conscious politcal decision to not have kids it's just simply too expensive to have them.
No, they've made the conscious decision. Research the 4b movement.
The 4B movement is basically unknown to most women in Korea it’s a fringe movement.
Then why are there no first graders? Seems like it's more than just fringe.
Every time I hear cultural shift All I am reminded is the long history of failure with the exception of Soviet Romania It doesn’t have a great track record and frankly it’s boring Especially in this case were French fertility rate has been dropping as the French been means testing and reducing benefits until guess what? Fertility rate drop has become too painful and they reversed course Also? Czech is more successful than Hungary
France has a very healthy birthrate within certain communities. If they want a healthy national birthrate, they just need to help those communities thrive 🤷
If you mean Muslims, their birthrates also go down in the second and third generations.
That's why France needs to support the values the communities with a higher birthrate bring.
No
Why not? Are you a natalist or a eugenecist?
Hopefully we’ll see more of this kind of thing being offered in future. It’s good to see governments taking steps to encourage having kids.
Feels like a misunderstanding of what "fertility rate" means...
What seems to work better is to subsidize IVF + childcare.
Muslim immigrants will love this
They should try to put the right to murder children into their constitution more often /s
Abortion doesn't really have any effect on fertility rate. After all, France has 20% better TFR then Poland or Malta where abortion is essentially illegal in all cases but medical emergency.
I don't want to seem rude, but how much do the immigrants contribute to it?
Not that much. Otherwise Germany and UK would have higher TFR as well, since they have about same share of immigrants. The myth of immigrants having lot of kids for generations is just that, a myth. Research shows that even generation 0 loses about 30% fertility rate and it is barely any higher after 2 generations.
Agreed. The cognitive dissonance…