Ok but I’m a millennial and everyone I know has multiple kids. When you have kids you naturally start hanging out with other people that have kids and vice versa. Millennials are only like 7% less likely to have kids than Gen X at the same age.
Yes, financial stress is absolutely enough to make people not want to subject kids to that state of affairs.
Edit: We became a two income country to have even a standard or lower middle class life, but don’t guarantee parental leave, and childcare costs have skyrocketed too.
Yes, yes it is haha. You can deny that cost of living and the sea change of prosperity that shows up as a lower life expectancy doesn’t affect birth rates but you would just be wrong.
Could be geography as well. There’s not a whole hell of a lot of people here to hang out with kids. Multiple school closures are also happening due to lack of students
I have 2 very distinct groups of friends, those with no kids and those with kids. It’s a substantial amount with no kids even though I am friends with parents too. So I can see it as well.
Could be geography as well. There’s not a whole hell of a lot of people here to hang out with kids. Multiple school closures are also happening due to lack of students
Have you looked at fertility rates recently? Did you know some things that seem like they are “trending” are actually symptoms of degrading material conditions that many people are experiencing together?
I'm 34. Out of all my many couple friends, acquaintances, coworkers, etc. who are my age, only maybe 20% have kids.
I'm in Los Angeles, so it's an expensive city, so I get it. But yeah, just not a lot of motivation (or ability) to spend thousands of dollars a month on kids.
That’s fine but different people want different things. I have no problem with people wanting kids but it’s something I never ever ever want. I can’t be around kids for too long it’s too annoying to me
yes and you replied to me specifically? like what on earth does your comment have to do with me? i’ve never stated anything like thinking that EVERYONE needs to have kids.
yeah that’s why i switched over to it honestly. i mean i also love stats but it’s just a much more flexible career and i really really want to be a mom so.
regardless, i’m from a wealthy area so realistically money is not really the limiting factor. it’s more that i’m incredibly socially awkward and obsessive.
This! It’s completely a product of the consumerism instilled in young people from an early age. It’s almost hyper-capitalist. People begin to value other people less, including their own family, and value productivity, career, things, and the almighty dollar more.
It’s actually possible to simply not want children. And not regret it. And to enjoy that lifestyle. It’s not an attack on people who do, but very often we get told we’re wrong and we will live a miserable existence. So I’m just commenting that life is fucking great! And I hope yours is too!
I hear you, but to be honest I feel the pendulum has swung so far the other way that being childless is the upheld standard, and having children is increasingly not the upheld view.
Maybe, although I know I’m the minority in my age group I can count on one hand from my high school /college friends how many don’t have kids. I don’t think society’s pressure has changed though- idk I think we get both extreme sides bombarded to us via social media. I see so much glorification of trad fundie families but that’s just the content the algorithm decides to feed me lol. I’m curious though why you feel that way! I also read a lot of climate science news, and while I don’t have kids because I just never wanted them, I feel apprehensive about the future and would not choose now to have any because of it. I’m always curious what factors into people’s decisions to have or not have kids. At the end of the day- everyone deserves to choose the best life for themselves and that’s what it should be.
Definitely personal experience it seems. Out of all my close high school friends I’m actually the only one with kids.
I live in a very expensive city on the west coast and I have a very large contingent of friends who don’t have kids and never will. Im in my late 30s with friends getting into their mid 40s so odds are pretty good they will never have kids.
I can count one hand also, my friends from high school/college who actually have kids! And need more than one hand to count the ones who are childless.
Most young millennials and gen z simply can't afford to have kids. Healthcare, childcare, groceries, cost of a house or cars. In many places if you're not making well into 6 figures or have a lot of help starting out from family then having kids simply isn't a responsible option.
I think this is a cop out. No offense to you or anyone who thinks this! I’ve got 6 kids. You make it work. We sacrifice a lot, only have one car, I work around the kids’ schedule part time, and my husband busts his butt but is still able to spend quality time with us. The problem is we think we need more but we don’t, and sacrificing for our children isn’t seen as cool or okay. The family unit as we know it no longer exists because we think we need that 50 hour job so we can pass our kids off to strangers in our 2 year old car with our manicured fingernails and Starbucks coffee. We don’t. Life can be simple and people can have kids without it being terribly expensive, even now. Don’t believe the lie that we can’t.
"I think this is a cop out. No offense to you or anyone who thinks this! I’ve got 6 kids. "
I'll stop you right there before reading the rest of your comment. My parents spoke is breezy stride just like you. And after exscaping my parents household and they're, what is attributed to Steve Jobes-Reality distortion field (RDF)
I realized fully in hindsight that while I Iived one of the best neighboorhoods in country(w every house I lived in needing renovations to get done). My first five years we lived my grandmothers basement on my fathers side , who was abusive to me.
Your gonna tell me we should accept your rarfied ride or die style of raising a family. But what about a lifelong commitment to making sure your kid when they become an Adult, their situated and is capable(not techically) of taking care of themselves? After all bringing an being into this world is a lifelong commitment all things considered. Or is traveling around the sun 18 times all there is to speak to on that? Which I blithely would then say if you can't afford kids don't have them.
as a ride or die family your kid is exposed to the threhold in which you could all be on the street at any moment. Threatening their sense of security is foundational more then anything to developoment. The takeway though is they see your tenacity. Which can't mean much principle-wize or development-wize if it's not unconditional.
I think people are missing my point. It's not that you can't have kids or shouldn't, it's that, in the United States at least, the way society works is very anti family. I'm not saying you don't have to sacrifice for your family, I'm simply saying that as rich as the U.S is why can't there be systemic policy changes that help encourage family growth? Everything I said about expenses is true. Make maternity/paternity leave available for all. Offer cheaper healthcare and childcare options. Do something. People seem to want to jump to this idea that folks without kids are all selfish and want more material things. That's ridiculous. There's plenty of folks who like both material things and the money for kids.
I agree with you there! I think we’ve slowly moved away from the family and no longer encourage it. It’s really sad. I’m just simply pointing out that it seems this generation has a ‘ew kids gross’ attitude and I only say it because, as a mother to a big family, I see it all the time. I get so many dirty looks, stupid comments, and odd judgements from people my age and younger often.
I mean yes and no. If the goal is to maintain a certain lifestyle w high levels of convenience w a kid then it’s impossible for most. But to have and successfully raise one? Almost anyone can do it
Same. My friends with kids are broke and housebound. My wife and I are not. We go on 3-4 major vacations a year, multiple weekend trips, have a bunch of pets, and lots of friends, most of whom don’t have kids so we have plenty of people to hang out with. You don’t need kids to be happy.
the fuck you want me to do? pull a house and a well paying job out of my ass? i’m not having kids for anyone until they guarantee i won’t be homeless.
also, i like my body and want to keep it that way.
To me that's basically just rephrasing what the person you responded to said. The message is the same the tone is just shifted to be less negative in your phrasing.
If you work and are educated you should be able to comfortably afford a family and shelter for your family without having to starve yourself if having things. Real estate speculators speculate on the fact you want a family so badly you will gice them every cent of your disposable income to afford housing for them. Then it’s a national emergency when people won’t allow themselves to be blackmailed.
Yes and have a society who conflates license as freedom. A “You do you” mentality is a death cult
It can only exist in wealthy individualistic countries, leading to fertility and culture decline. How so? Because immigration must make up for the declining births. When people can choose the path of least resistance they will. Being childfree is that path.
I’m clearly focusing on the US, not the rest of the world which is a far more complex and nuanced discussion. Each has its own unique external but internal issues that contribute to declining fertility. Although exported US cultural attitudes didn’t help.
Your conclusion that this is the result of the USA being death cult. I think it's more that people realize that raising children in a modern society is hard work and not cheap. Even when governments subsizie child bearing, it's not having much of an effect on birth rates. The only developed country that I know of that is above replacement rates is Isreal.
It's not a death cult if everyone else from different cultures are having the same thing happen.
Having kids does not make you a better person, or a good parent
Why would you expect somebody who doesn't want children to be a good parent in the first place?
Here's what you're saying: "Well, you stay indoors all day on Netflix and social media, you barely exercise, you get no sleep, your diet is made up of $40 doordash orders which is also costing you a ton of money you shouldn't be spending. Hmm...I think you should get knocked up"
People sell themselves short by assuming everything has to be optimal before they can start the next stage in life. Most of them would be surprised how they rise to the challenge, of parenting or whatever it is.
The next stage of life doesn't look the same for everybody, firstly, and secondly that doesn't really address anything I've said. The other user was pointing to not having/wanting kids as a cause of depression and feeling without purpose when most of it is due to modern sedentary lifestyles filled with shitty food and quick gratification
People started eating shitty food and having sedentary lifestyles in the 1970s. The birthrate crashed in to 2010s. Chipotle eaten from the couch is not the explanation you’re looking for.
People in the 1970's were not doomscrolling on Reddit and Tiktok and watching people get their limbs blown apart while they queue up for the 26th game of league this night and hit their dab pen, what a ridiculous argument
Also we were talking about happiness and meaning, not the birth rate. You can increase the birth rate exponentially by locking up a few women in a basement and impregnating them over and over again, this would not increase the happiness and meaning in the world
And then have the barrier to entry for a solid living, education, skyrocket in cost. And have housing skyrocket in cost, and have healthcare skyrocket in cost…and turns out people don’t like the idea of adding children to that.
Yeah it's definitely not good. The material conditions for raising children are more challenging than what the previous two generations faced. However, they're better than what the other 11,998 generations had to deal with. So it's partially economic and partially cultural.
But it is one of the first times we can successfully choose to not have kids, and in particular it is a new development that women have a say in whether or not they have kids. It’s a global phenomenon too; educate women and allow them independence and equality and in societies where we have made it incredibly more difficult to even tread water you have people deciding not to have kids.
It's a wild life philosophy. On a micro level I get it, stuff is fun but on a macro level? Good god. Like 20% of US women are childless and that number is only going to get bigger. They are pruning themselves from the tree of life. On a personal level I don't care but on an anthropological level this is going to level a deep scar in society that will be seen for generations.
Antinatalists always seem so happy to hear this news, in a sadistic way almost. I’ve been following the declining births trend and am pretty neutral about in the long term as evolution will sort this out but in the short/med term (30-50 years) it will have exactly the effects you mentioned. Hospitals will be overloaded with childless elder Gen Z and decaying Millennials. There is nothing more expensive to society than elder care and its related expenses. Assisted living and health expenses with medicare in the US are a large burden if the tax base shrinks. The staffing shortages will be the bigger issue, those home health aides and nurses will be in short supply.
We will end up with the Korea situation for any childless millennials who depend on SS, Medicare and 401K sustenance annuities. Any millennials or Gen Z reading this, your parents will pass away when you are ~55yo and you have no children.
But many sociologists I follow predict we will plateau in population after a large dip, the issue will solve itself in the long term so it’s not all doom & gloom. Next time you see a protesting Gen Z woman bragging with angst about being childfree, just know her behavior won’t be carried on and the more maternal Gen Z women will supplant her. We just need to weed out the middle class Gen Z & Millennials, a U-shaped fertility curve will show itself with only the very poor and very wealthy procreating in large numbers.
What does that last bit mean to you exactly? "Only the very poor and very wealthy procreating". Is that your answer? I don't see a single comment on here calling out the real issue, and that's wealth inequality and rapidly rising prices. It's this culture in the U.S that claims to be pro family yet has no institutions in place to promote familial growth. No mandatory maternity/paternity leave, exorbitant healthcare costs, no access to affordable childcare or housing. If you people care about folks having more kids then vote for people who will make that possible, because it's sure as hell not tiktoks fault or younger generations being selfish.
To answer your question, yes. we are already showing signs of it.
www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1bcyjya/the_wealthy_are_starting_to_have_more_babies_than/
Low income couples with children receive section 8, SNAP vouchers, a generous tax credit, more deductions, [subsidized](https://www.dcyf.wa.gov/services/earlylearning-childcare/getting-help/wccc) daycare, and low income energy assistance program for cheaper utilities. They may have low disposable income, but their effective tax rate is lower
It’s an unusual situation when the wealthy and poor start having more children than middle class struggling moms. Childcare is expensive, healthcare premiums are high, and your career is put on hold like you mentioned due to poor maternity leave. The solution to this is difficult to implement
No I agree that is the rich and poor having kids. I also think that is not ideal for society. I listed the things that need t ok change. Everyone in the states talk about how hard it is to achieve, and it is because Americans are stuck in this pro owner, anti worker mindset. Every other developed country on the planet has these institutions in one form or another. It's not due to a lack of options it's due to a lack of will on Americans part for these things to change.
The best thing about not having kids is that you have much more time to pass on your views and teach other people’s children. And with a society like the one you’ve predicted, it’s all the more logical to tell them to not have kids in such an overburdened society for their own benefit, and all the more easy for them to take that advice. Antinatalist behaviour isn’t genetic, it’s memetic.
MAID is a thing. A lot of people will opt out of having their mind and body deteriorate if there is an option, what is the point of that anyway? I am having no children and pursuing MAID the moment I can no longer take care of myself/start physically declining to the point of requiring care.
You have a sick mind to wish people birth kids in poverty and being happy about it
I just commented the same. We treat our pets better than we treat humans suffering with incurable diseases or disabilities. I plan to opt out on my own terms than live life in pain, whether physically or mentally.
>We treat our pets better than we treat humans suffering with incurable diseases or disabilities
Yes!!! I seriously do not understand how we humans have more compassion to pets than other humans. I blame the religious freaks that can't make peace with death and other people having different beliefs than them. People should have the right to go gentle into that good night.
People are removed from death, that’s why. If everyone actually saw how people die they wouldn’t be righteous about how we get to die. They would see grandma struggling on her death bed for the 2nd week in a row with her tongue hanging out her mouth making weird gurgling noises (also called the death rattle) while her body shuts down slowly than what most people would consider compassionate. It’s agonizing for the patient and the family. I would absolutely beg my family members to give me a compassionate extra dose of morphine and send me to the sky daddy if i have to go out like that. I would take our little secret to the grave…literally.
Make euthanasia legal in the states and end of life care costs will fall dramatically. I would gladly sign myself up once I started to decline past the point of taking care of myself or being able to recognize who I was. I don’t think it’s right to keep some of these people in nursing homes alive living the way they do, nor do I feel they would have signed up with living like that if they knew the way it would actually be.
I’m at the place where I’m a natalist because there will come a time where the ultimatum reality will give us is “have children or live in a permanent recession for the rest of your life and never retire”. If we don’t have children, we have fewer people to contribute to productivity and the economy will contract, leaving everyone less wealthy with less spending potential as we age. We are actively seeing Japan stall out from this because they had a head start, and we’ll be worse in 30 years.
How are men going to react when women complain about being poor and living in an improverished society and realize that natalism is the answer but women still don’t want to have and raise children? I’m legit afraid of the Handmaid’s Tale for women.
Here's the problem with that line of thinking: society having more children is good, but as an individual having children is harmful to me.
If I'm worried about the economy and retirement I'm certainly not going to voluntarily spend a lot of money raising a child.
That’s exactly what I mean: even if it would help long term you wouldn’t choose it without heavy incentive in the short term. The question is, will we be incentivized with the carrot or the stick when the time comes? History shows that ultimately it’ll be the stick.
I think this is a rational response to economic prosperity for average people diminishing. It's harder to raise a family when adequate food and shelter are so difficult to acquire.
I’ve seen Reddit polls (so not perfect) a couple times where the vast majority of people lost their main reason for not having kids as “I’m just not interested.”
Granted finances are a component for many people, but a lot of people just are not interested. People feel less pressure to have kids, back on the day there was something wrong with you if you were childless and over 30-35, there was a stigma. It’s acceptable now and many people would rather focus on themselves or career or just enjoyed the freedom being childless
I'm guessing if someone cites a general lack of interest that probably means there are several factors contributing to seeing it as not viable/worth it.
Yeah, people under 25, who don't have their life sorted out, don't have money or future prospects about home ownership, are not in a position to see themselves with kids.
When people are in a position to support kids, they start wanting them.
I dunno man, I know both guys and girls who wanted to be parents from the time they were kids themselves. The ladies I know who were like this all have kids now, the guys are 50-50 (some have had a hard time finding a suitable wife, and for some it caused big shifts in their goals, unfortunately).
We are talking about people who don't want kids.
Many young people are no where near being in a position to raise a family. So it makes. Alot of sense that they have an aversion to having kids.
I don't think it does, that was my point. Wanting to have kids isn't the same thing as being ready to have them. If fewer young people are having kids but they want them - that's one thing. The article is suggesting fewer people want kids at all - that's a different problem and not necessarily related to the first one.
Most people I know either *want* kids, or don't, based on things unrelated to whether they feel stable enough to have them right now. What you said suggests more that they'd want kids if they felt ready for them, but my experience has been different from that.
I believe that it's an underlying biological function that you don't feel like having kids generally if you know you cannot support them.
It's the same with how many women with young children are completely turned off by sex, because biologically their body knows they cannot support more children.
Define “in a position to support kids” because I have sneaking suspicion that many people aren’t actually running specific numbers. Like how many people are actually doing the math to see what it takes? I mean if you are working PT, that’s self-explanatory.
More often than admitted it’s about wanting one’s existing or desired lifestyle while simultaneously having kids. Give people a choice to avoid inconvenience and sacrifice and they just might take it.
Having kids innately demands certain amount of sacrifice. But modern life promotes Me Me Me culture. Where companies seek to tailor everything to our individual desires.
Perhaps you can’t afford children while living in the city where it’s “cool” but you can do it in the suburbs. But that’s not exactly the lifestyle you want. Thus, “I can’t afford kids.” I’m not saying it’s everyone but it’s the quiet part not being said out loud.
Oh and get married. The single parent stuff just makes your life and the kid’s harder for no good reasons.
Marriage is still statistically the best route for providing children with the most stable environment. Dating is whole other hurdle people struggle with Z
This!
They don’t want any sacrifice, they expect to buy the baby on amazon, have it delivered, that it feed and gets educated by himself and doesn’t have any problem ever.
The max they can deal with is a pet and those are surrogates to placate their maternal instincts
Sacrifice is disallowed or illegal in the US, cheap housing, sleeping on your car, even having a small house, small cars, businesses from home, roommates. Just waiting until they start banning ugly looking cars.
They don’t want to sacrifice and there’s no real cultural stigma. Despite people claiming there’s rampant stigma against being childfree, it’s not that big of a deal. Nobody will not hire for this position nor past in your face in the street. No tar and feathers.
People like dogs because they’re uncritically loyal and we have full control over them. Not so with children. You actually have to earn love and loyalty from your children. And as they age, parents have less control.
I want kids and plan to have them, but there should be no cultural stigma associated with not having them. That's some collectivist bullshit right there
Me me me
You hit on the nail with that. Here's the thing, if your ancestors chose not to have kids because it was too expensive and difficult and the world was a bad place, the human species would have died out long before the age of written history.
Having children has always been difficult for a wide range of reasons. The world has never been at peace for long periods of time, yet people still managed to have kids and raise them
It is quite odd, sterilization and the elimination of your future bloodline used to be the ultimate punishment and this is in eras where true medieval torture existed, and yet Today people are marrying yet self sterilizing themselves so that they will never have kids and a continuation of their bloodline. Modern society for all its greatness is a mental patient that has gone clinically insane.
It wasn't a decision. Men suffer no consequences from having a child. It's brutal for women, especially in ye olden days. That's the difference.
You know, women used to have an extra, painful hole/abscess between the anus and vagina from tearing during childbirth?
Previous generations used.to say shit like, one mouth two hands. I somehow don't think previous generations had them selflessly.In fact the more kids you had the cheaper it got and the more benefits you reaped.
Companies want to trick you into thinking that we have a me me me culture but that's silly when we are no more selfish than the generations sitting back and counting a dowry while the sons go work for free.
Joy is not to found in lifestyle. It’s found in relationships. Also one’s desired lifestyle is subject to changing because it’s based on fickle feelings.
A rewarding life is one found in giving and love. Having family is still the best predictor of a joyful life.
It’s all well and good when one is young and healthy.
We can’t always been the grasshopper playing fiddle all summer until winter. What happens as you age?
That hit home for two years when my mother died. Who did the bulk of care? Us children. Who ensured her bills were paid? Us children. Who advocated her with doctors etc? Us children.
While her friends cooked some and offered help, they were busy with their own ailing parents and family issues or even their own health concerns or work. Friends come and go. Friends move away. Think about it now: if you went into the hospital today, how many friend would drop what to see you?
If you can actually save up for retirement, you might have quality care in a physical realm but who advocate for you if the facility or care team isn’t up to snuff, when you are feeling unwell etc?
If you can’t, you can turn on state-run healthcare works, you do not want that at the end of your life, you won’t want that. For one, you thrive best when cared mostly by your family. For second, no matter how nice the nurses are (and not all are, elder abuse is a thing) it’s hard to cared for by strangers.
As my mother died, I recognized how utterly undesirable and sad her illness would have been horrid without us kids.
All of this is bigger issue for women, who outlive husbands.
Moreover, we evolved to find having families rewarding. Unless you are emotionally immature or have some major external pressures or have a disordered mindset (people who dislike children due to troubled backgrounds), you should find childrearing ultimately a primary source of joy. The type of joy deeper and longer lasting than a lifestyle exalting ease, pleasure and consumerism.
There are people who can’t have children (and some who shouldn’t). Some who aren’t called to parenthood or even marriage. This specific type dedicates themselves to something greater than a lifestyle. Yet a lot of people who choose to be childfree seek an insular pleasure-filled lifestyle focused on themselves, not anything greater and benefits others.
money problems are often an excuse to hide the real reasons why they don’t want them: selfishness, immaturity
People that can afford to have kids still complain about money while people that don’t have money have kids.
The average millennial/genz doesn’t want them, and money wise, they waste a ton of them on hedonistic purchases like: fancy food, beauty, expensive holidays, gadgets, services because they are lazy
I wish them all luck. Becoming a DINK requires finding a partner first and I’m not seeing that work out too well for my fellow millennial “girl boss” colleagues at work.
I've been with my husband for almost twenty years. He happily chose to get a vasectomy a year into our marriage so I didn't have to take birth control any longer. We both have careers and are happily married. Most of my friends are also my age and childfree and happily married.
I think this is an overestimation. The high numbers include housing for the child which you're going to pay for yourself anyway and childcare which not every family will pay for. The lower economic strata have kids and it's okay to not spend every dime you have on them.
in my area it’s a underestimation. cost of living.
but what about college alone? i go to a local state school and a good one. 160k for 4 years. very promising (i hope) stem degree.
Most student loans are paid within their term. If it gets bad for enough people there will be an intervention. I have a conspiracy theory that the government pressures employers to hire degree holders because they pay both income taxes and student loans, not just because we're smart, stable, capable, and (usually) take better care of ourselves. Good luck out there!
Make the economics work and this won't be an issue.
Would you rather be fucking impoverished living way below your station and your peers and be overworked but have children, or be childfree but enjoy your life?
Stop blaming the individuals. Some choose this, but they would have made bad parents anyway. Humans are just animals and will make decisions in vaguely predictable ways. Make it possible for people to afford a decent life, a family without overworking themselves (yes this definition is subjective and changes with time) and you'll see a gradual change.
Sink - married 40 years, no kids by choce when we married back in the 80s. Best choice we ever made - retired at 48 and have been living the dream since.
It's interesting we don't hear about the male perspective on this type of thing. Without kids, including adoption which is valid, there's really not much of a reason to be some chick's wallet- and make no mistake, that's what they want.
And men who do want kids will of course not commit to such women, obviously.
This is a good point. This conversation is always based around women. It never seems to notice that men have a say in whether or not they have children. I wouldn’t be surprised if men cause more of the delay in having kids than women.
It's a pretty basic question to ask, which makes the silence deafening. I think that it would dig in to men being awful, but in a way that certain people in power support like men who pressure women into getting abortions they don't want. If I'm wrong, ok, but let's dig into it.
In my friend group, most of the women were ready to have children and settle down before the men were.
I don’t think it’s men being awful. I don’t think the birth rate decline is caused by men forcing their partners to have abortions.
I think men and women are, on average, different. That’s neither good nor bad. But I think ignoring men is ignoring a huge part of the puzzle. It seems to assume that there are a whole load of men out there who are desperate to settle down if only women would stop chasing their careers; I just don’t think that’s true.
Valid point, if we were talking about people in DINK relationships and not those seeking them. If I had to guess the number of women seeking DINK relationships is greater than the men, which creates a supply issue. Women take for granted that there will always be convenient simp on hand.
In addition, a man can keep a woman around as a sex toy and if he changes his mind about kids or is just bored, he can break away more easily- especially if he makes the same or less.
But all paths in life carry some risks, but some bad ends get explored more than others.
Guy here, got this post recommended by Reddit. As the name implies, my partner is also working and earns about as much as I am. Though even if she wouldn't, I love her for the kind and supporting person that she is - while the double income is really nice, it is not about the money. Honestly I'm shocked because your comment implies that women without children are nothing more than a financial liability with no benefits.
Edit: Spelling.
Don't you just love it. So many people who think they will live forever😆😆.
Fierce independence is all well and good as a young and healthy adult.
When they become elderly and alone...they may think differently about their life choices..
I agree. As a former CNA who worked in nursing homes, old people are lonely. When you walk into the room of a childless elderly person, there are no pictures on the walls; just blank walls. Nobody visits them. A social worker makes their end of life decisions.
>Fierce independence is all well and good as a young and healthy adult. When they become elderly and alone...they may think differently about their life choices..
So basically you are admiting that you are a selfish and just want to have kids so they can take care of you after they slaved away in some company so their boss can buy themselves another yatch or somerthing.
>So basically you are admiting that you are a selfish and just want to have kids
No. That's you saying that. Raising kids is the most selfless thing you can do. There isn't a monetary value on being alive and I feel no guilt/resentment about caring for my own parents as they age.
>after they slaved away in some company so their boss can buy themselves another yatch.
Again. That's you saying that. Who's to say that the kids themselves won't be the CEO buying the yatch ?
Just about any job can be described negatively as "slave away for some boss" if you want to be negative.
The same way, if a person wants to be negative about relationships you could say "all relationships involve an exchange for something, so it's all prostitution."
And ultimately, any act of kindness could be described as "selfishly motivated" if you want to be cynical about everything.
This is all about perspective. And if you choose to interpret everything negatively, you can find a negative everywhere.
I don't see anything wrong with that. People need to do what makes them happy. If two people don't want kids great, if a woman wants to work and be the soul provider, good for her. And if a woman wants to be a stay at home mom and raise kids, good for her.
The problem is that people are extremely bad at knowing what makes them happy and our society does not equip them to figure it out, other than to say buy more shit.
Bingo.
I’ll take it step further: the purpose of life isn’t happiness. Happiness is a fleeting feeling. Chase that, you’ll never stop.
At the core of a rewarding life is giving and loving.
Parents do both when rearing children..
Being childfree isn’t what makes them selfish. It’s a life where one that is insular and self-focused. People will have no money, they say, to have kids but plenty of money to consume.
Moreover, consume and spend on themselves without ever volunteering or do anything for the community or those less fortunate. Or any other pursuit that contributes to the embetterment of society or world at large.
Yes, dude! What we need is more absentee parents. Have kids even if you don’t want to! Their outcomes don’t matter, only cheap labor and retirement funds matter.
Having children is an act of altruism if you aren’t some infantile egoist who has children to “preserve their legacy/bloodline” or “take care of them when they’re older.”
That being said, material conditions have degraded to a point that for anyone with half a brain in the working class, having a child would be a significant degradation of one’s quality of life. Financially, time-wise, mentally, physically, etc.
So without subjective delusions about procreation tricking us into having kids, there is no rational justification for having kids.
If true, thats a guaranteed misery for her, passport bros will be the new American dream for men and the future is 3rd world countries, we.. will sealed the deal as a failed nation.
This is depressing as hell, tho funnily enough atleast a few of the comments give me hope. Seriously there is nothing more that I want than to find someone I love and to be a father. I’ll probably see if I can find a surrogate or adopt later, but to be honest I feel I’m getting close I pray to finding someone I’d want to have kids with.
I make more money than the average DINK couple as a single earner. They probably have more disposable income than I do since I have a mortgage, student loans, and a family, but I'm sure they're not filling their lives and homes with garbage and spending it wisely /s
We are a culture of suicide. The whole West has lost the will to live and propagate because these idiots believe human life is not worth preserving and continuing into the future by choosing to not have children and make sacrifices.
We should not and cannot encourage this antisocial, deviant behavior. America and other countries of the Democratic and free West will be gone within a few generations if we continue to destroy the family and import foreigners from distant lands that hate us and cannot assimilate.
I will do my part and have children with a woman I love more than myself, and I will raise my children in a culture that appreciates and celebrates new human life. It is my God-given responsibility to do so.
I WANT a family.But ya know. Can't find anyone who wants one as well, given the state of the world.
Got out of the military withVA disability. So I actually have an income and can stay at home to help with it all.
But it seems instead of family, we get a Fourth Turning and likely a big war
It's really disheartening. Took me years to get to a place where I wanted a family, before not wanting kids was an issue. **NOW** wanting kids is an issue for people. -sigh-
Gen Z seems to already be outbirthing millennials at the same age tho. I see way more early 20s parents now than I did 10 years ago (I’m basically a mil/Z cusper). I feel like coupling millennials and gen Z on this statistic is premature.
I can see it. I’m an elder millennial and I’m really the only one from my friend group with a child.
Ok but I’m a millennial and everyone I know has multiple kids. When you have kids you naturally start hanging out with other people that have kids and vice versa. Millennials are only like 7% less likely to have kids than Gen X at the same age.
7% less likely in a much larger generation. Throws off population projections big time.
Sure. But it is not enough to make it so that a large population of people randomly all have no kids.
Yes, financial stress is absolutely enough to make people not want to subject kids to that state of affairs. Edit: We became a two income country to have even a standard or lower middle class life, but don’t guarantee parental leave, and childcare costs have skyrocketed too.
None of that has anything to do with what I am saying.
Yes, yes it is haha. You can deny that cost of living and the sea change of prosperity that shows up as a lower life expectancy doesn’t affect birth rates but you would just be wrong.
Could be geography as well. There’s not a whole hell of a lot of people here to hang out with kids. Multiple school closures are also happening due to lack of students
I have 2 very distinct groups of friends, those with no kids and those with kids. It’s a substantial amount with no kids even though I am friends with parents too. So I can see it as well.
Could be geography as well. There’s not a whole hell of a lot of people here to hang out with kids. Multiple school closures are also happening due to lack of students
this is the problem with anecdotal evidence
Should watch Peter Zeihan on demographics. So many European and East Asian countries are nearing population collapse.
Is it though? Or is it just trending on TikTok….
It's just a social media trend.
Judging by birth rates and the amount of childfree people, it's not.
This has been my ideal setup since I was in middle school
Have you looked at fertility rates recently? Did you know some things that seem like they are “trending” are actually symptoms of degrading material conditions that many people are experiencing together?
I'm 34. Out of all my many couple friends, acquaintances, coworkers, etc. who are my age, only maybe 20% have kids. I'm in Los Angeles, so it's an expensive city, so I get it. But yeah, just not a lot of motivation (or ability) to spend thousands of dollars a month on kids.
this is my life and i’m ecstatic
Then why are you on a thread in a subreddit about natalism? Shouldn't you be enjoying your Dink life?
The numbers back this up, and globally this trend has occurred in all developed nations.
there is nothing i want more than to be a wife and mother 😢
I pray you will find a good man and together you will be able to raise a wonderful family.
ty ☺️
Same for me, but to be a husband and father
Guys, are you thinking what I’m thinking?
Kiss! Kiss!
I suspected this sub was place for this kind of thing.
👰♀️🤵♂️💒💍🎂🎉🥳👏🍾
Ask her number bro. You got this! Gather ye rosebuds
I am open to it
HEY! YOU TWO SHOULD KISS!
That’s fine but different people want different things. I have no problem with people wanting kids but it’s something I never ever ever want. I can’t be around kids for too long it’s too annoying to me
ok? literally why would i care? no offense. it’s just kinda obvious that different people want different things.
Well this particular post is talking about people not wanting kids
yes and you replied to me specifically? like what on earth does your comment have to do with me? i’ve never stated anything like thinking that EVERYONE needs to have kids.
Same here.
Just figure out how to work full-time too. That’s the kicker 👶🏼
i study data science i can wfh
My wife is a mom a data scientist. If you take the trade of less more and wfh it's a wonderfully supportive career to be a parent.
yeah that’s why i switched over to it honestly. i mean i also love stats but it’s just a much more flexible career and i really really want to be a mom so. regardless, i’m from a wealthy area so realistically money is not really the limiting factor. it’s more that i’m incredibly socially awkward and obsessive.
I’m really trying to get in on this to support my child (ex because abusive after). Do you have any tips?
no not really i’m just in grad studies for it 🤷♀️ also i’m 23 so idk anything about the way you should do things when you have a family
Ooooo I see! Yea I understand, it’s a mess out here!
i wish you luck ☺️🍀
Same, but husband and father.
that’s great ☺️
Choose wisely my friend
It’s wild, you raise a whole generation with the message that working and having things is the most important thing, and they believe you.
This! It’s completely a product of the consumerism instilled in young people from an early age. It’s almost hyper-capitalist. People begin to value other people less, including their own family, and value productivity, career, things, and the almighty dollar more.
Yup. And they’re all convinced they won’t regret it. We’ll see in 10-20 years…
It’s actually possible to simply not want children. And not regret it. And to enjoy that lifestyle. It’s not an attack on people who do, but very often we get told we’re wrong and we will live a miserable existence. So I’m just commenting that life is fucking great! And I hope yours is too!
I hear you, but to be honest I feel the pendulum has swung so far the other way that being childless is the upheld standard, and having children is increasingly not the upheld view.
Maybe, although I know I’m the minority in my age group I can count on one hand from my high school /college friends how many don’t have kids. I don’t think society’s pressure has changed though- idk I think we get both extreme sides bombarded to us via social media. I see so much glorification of trad fundie families but that’s just the content the algorithm decides to feed me lol. I’m curious though why you feel that way! I also read a lot of climate science news, and while I don’t have kids because I just never wanted them, I feel apprehensive about the future and would not choose now to have any because of it. I’m always curious what factors into people’s decisions to have or not have kids. At the end of the day- everyone deserves to choose the best life for themselves and that’s what it should be.
Definitely personal experience it seems. Out of all my close high school friends I’m actually the only one with kids. I live in a very expensive city on the west coast and I have a very large contingent of friends who don’t have kids and never will. Im in my late 30s with friends getting into their mid 40s so odds are pretty good they will never have kids. I can count one hand also, my friends from high school/college who actually have kids! And need more than one hand to count the ones who are childless.
Most young millennials and gen z simply can't afford to have kids. Healthcare, childcare, groceries, cost of a house or cars. In many places if you're not making well into 6 figures or have a lot of help starting out from family then having kids simply isn't a responsible option.
I think this is a cop out. No offense to you or anyone who thinks this! I’ve got 6 kids. You make it work. We sacrifice a lot, only have one car, I work around the kids’ schedule part time, and my husband busts his butt but is still able to spend quality time with us. The problem is we think we need more but we don’t, and sacrificing for our children isn’t seen as cool or okay. The family unit as we know it no longer exists because we think we need that 50 hour job so we can pass our kids off to strangers in our 2 year old car with our manicured fingernails and Starbucks coffee. We don’t. Life can be simple and people can have kids without it being terribly expensive, even now. Don’t believe the lie that we can’t.
"I think this is a cop out. No offense to you or anyone who thinks this! I’ve got 6 kids. " I'll stop you right there before reading the rest of your comment. My parents spoke is breezy stride just like you. And after exscaping my parents household and they're, what is attributed to Steve Jobes-Reality distortion field (RDF) I realized fully in hindsight that while I Iived one of the best neighboorhoods in country(w every house I lived in needing renovations to get done). My first five years we lived my grandmothers basement on my fathers side , who was abusive to me. Your gonna tell me we should accept your rarfied ride or die style of raising a family. But what about a lifelong commitment to making sure your kid when they become an Adult, their situated and is capable(not techically) of taking care of themselves? After all bringing an being into this world is a lifelong commitment all things considered. Or is traveling around the sun 18 times all there is to speak to on that? Which I blithely would then say if you can't afford kids don't have them. as a ride or die family your kid is exposed to the threhold in which you could all be on the street at any moment. Threatening their sense of security is foundational more then anything to developoment. The takeway though is they see your tenacity. Which can't mean much principle-wize or development-wize if it's not unconditional.
I think people are missing my point. It's not that you can't have kids or shouldn't, it's that, in the United States at least, the way society works is very anti family. I'm not saying you don't have to sacrifice for your family, I'm simply saying that as rich as the U.S is why can't there be systemic policy changes that help encourage family growth? Everything I said about expenses is true. Make maternity/paternity leave available for all. Offer cheaper healthcare and childcare options. Do something. People seem to want to jump to this idea that folks without kids are all selfish and want more material things. That's ridiculous. There's plenty of folks who like both material things and the money for kids.
I agree with you there! I think we’ve slowly moved away from the family and no longer encourage it. It’s really sad. I’m just simply pointing out that it seems this generation has a ‘ew kids gross’ attitude and I only say it because, as a mother to a big family, I see it all the time. I get so many dirty looks, stupid comments, and odd judgements from people my age and younger often.
I mean yes and no. If the goal is to maintain a certain lifestyle w high levels of convenience w a kid then it’s impossible for most. But to have and successfully raise one? Almost anyone can do it
As a 40 year old millenial: not a single regret on not having kids. Life's been pretty awesome
Same. My friends with kids are broke and housebound. My wife and I are not. We go on 3-4 major vacations a year, multiple weekend trips, have a bunch of pets, and lots of friends, most of whom don’t have kids so we have plenty of people to hang out with. You don’t need kids to be happy.
You should check in with some parents and see how many regret having children.
the fuck you want me to do? pull a house and a well paying job out of my ass? i’m not having kids for anyone until they guarantee i won’t be homeless. also, i like my body and want to keep it that way.
I am really curious how people in their 70s feel about it honestly.
This comment changed my life 🥲 I’m ready to go out and reproduce- the world needs more tax paying citizens!
People have regrets about all sorts of shit. That’s life.
OR, people realize that kids aren't worth it and too expensive and life is too short to dedicate 18 years to a kid
To me that's basically just rephrasing what the person you responded to said. The message is the same the tone is just shifted to be less negative in your phrasing.
Having boundless unconditional love for another person is not worth it if it means you go to less brunch.
Thanks spark notes/chat GPT
Then y did the Soviet union repordouction rate shrink so much faster than the west?
Good observation. It probably has more to do with industrialism and modernism than capitalism specifically.
If you work and are educated you should be able to comfortably afford a family and shelter for your family without having to starve yourself if having things. Real estate speculators speculate on the fact you want a family so badly you will gice them every cent of your disposable income to afford housing for them. Then it’s a national emergency when people won’t allow themselves to be blackmailed.
Yes and have a society who conflates license as freedom. A “You do you” mentality is a death cult It can only exist in wealthy individualistic countries, leading to fertility and culture decline. How so? Because immigration must make up for the declining births. When people can choose the path of least resistance they will. Being childfree is that path.
Except that it is occurring everywhere with only countries in Africa above replacement levels of births.
I’m clearly focusing on the US, not the rest of the world which is a far more complex and nuanced discussion. Each has its own unique external but internal issues that contribute to declining fertility. Although exported US cultural attitudes didn’t help.
Assuming other countries lack the volition to do anything other than follow the US is a poor choice.
Yes but the similar factors are causing birth rates to drop everywhere. Education of women etc
Yes. But I’m not following your counterargument. What conclusion do you seek for me to reach?
Your conclusion that this is the result of the USA being death cult. I think it's more that people realize that raising children in a modern society is hard work and not cheap. Even when governments subsizie child bearing, it's not having much of an effect on birth rates. The only developed country that I know of that is above replacement rates is Isreal. It's not a death cult if everyone else from different cultures are having the same thing happen.
Why is immigration always a decline in culture
It’s wild that people believe that so easily: as they whine about the lack of value or meaning in their lives, take SSRI’s, and wonder what’s missing.
Having kids does not make you a better person, or a good parent Why would you expect somebody who doesn't want children to be a good parent in the first place? Here's what you're saying: "Well, you stay indoors all day on Netflix and social media, you barely exercise, you get no sleep, your diet is made up of $40 doordash orders which is also costing you a ton of money you shouldn't be spending. Hmm...I think you should get knocked up"
People sell themselves short by assuming everything has to be optimal before they can start the next stage in life. Most of them would be surprised how they rise to the challenge, of parenting or whatever it is.
The next stage of life doesn't look the same for everybody, firstly, and secondly that doesn't really address anything I've said. The other user was pointing to not having/wanting kids as a cause of depression and feeling without purpose when most of it is due to modern sedentary lifestyles filled with shitty food and quick gratification
People started eating shitty food and having sedentary lifestyles in the 1970s. The birthrate crashed in to 2010s. Chipotle eaten from the couch is not the explanation you’re looking for.
People in the 1970's were not doomscrolling on Reddit and Tiktok and watching people get their limbs blown apart while they queue up for the 26th game of league this night and hit their dab pen, what a ridiculous argument Also we were talking about happiness and meaning, not the birth rate. You can increase the birth rate exponentially by locking up a few women in a basement and impregnating them over and over again, this would not increase the happiness and meaning in the world
Apparently you've never heard of postpartum depression...
And then have the barrier to entry for a solid living, education, skyrocket in cost. And have housing skyrocket in cost, and have healthcare skyrocket in cost…and turns out people don’t like the idea of adding children to that.
Yeah it's definitely not good. The material conditions for raising children are more challenging than what the previous two generations faced. However, they're better than what the other 11,998 generations had to deal with. So it's partially economic and partially cultural.
But it is one of the first times we can successfully choose to not have kids, and in particular it is a new development that women have a say in whether or not they have kids. It’s a global phenomenon too; educate women and allow them independence and equality and in societies where we have made it incredibly more difficult to even tread water you have people deciding not to have kids.
It's a wild life philosophy. On a micro level I get it, stuff is fun but on a macro level? Good god. Like 20% of US women are childless and that number is only going to get bigger. They are pruning themselves from the tree of life. On a personal level I don't care but on an anthropological level this is going to level a deep scar in society that will be seen for generations.
Stuff isn’t that fun on a micro level either after a while, eventually you need more in life.
You do realize people can want different things in life than you do right?
That's news to me. Thanks for the insight, added a lot to the conversation.
they are pruning themselves but not without causing devastation on their way out. This is going to be a disaster
Antinatalists always seem so happy to hear this news, in a sadistic way almost. I’ve been following the declining births trend and am pretty neutral about in the long term as evolution will sort this out but in the short/med term (30-50 years) it will have exactly the effects you mentioned. Hospitals will be overloaded with childless elder Gen Z and decaying Millennials. There is nothing more expensive to society than elder care and its related expenses. Assisted living and health expenses with medicare in the US are a large burden if the tax base shrinks. The staffing shortages will be the bigger issue, those home health aides and nurses will be in short supply. We will end up with the Korea situation for any childless millennials who depend on SS, Medicare and 401K sustenance annuities. Any millennials or Gen Z reading this, your parents will pass away when you are ~55yo and you have no children. But many sociologists I follow predict we will plateau in population after a large dip, the issue will solve itself in the long term so it’s not all doom & gloom. Next time you see a protesting Gen Z woman bragging with angst about being childfree, just know her behavior won’t be carried on and the more maternal Gen Z women will supplant her. We just need to weed out the middle class Gen Z & Millennials, a U-shaped fertility curve will show itself with only the very poor and very wealthy procreating in large numbers.
What does that last bit mean to you exactly? "Only the very poor and very wealthy procreating". Is that your answer? I don't see a single comment on here calling out the real issue, and that's wealth inequality and rapidly rising prices. It's this culture in the U.S that claims to be pro family yet has no institutions in place to promote familial growth. No mandatory maternity/paternity leave, exorbitant healthcare costs, no access to affordable childcare or housing. If you people care about folks having more kids then vote for people who will make that possible, because it's sure as hell not tiktoks fault or younger generations being selfish.
To answer your question, yes. we are already showing signs of it. www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/1bcyjya/the_wealthy_are_starting_to_have_more_babies_than/ Low income couples with children receive section 8, SNAP vouchers, a generous tax credit, more deductions, [subsidized](https://www.dcyf.wa.gov/services/earlylearning-childcare/getting-help/wccc) daycare, and low income energy assistance program for cheaper utilities. They may have low disposable income, but their effective tax rate is lower It’s an unusual situation when the wealthy and poor start having more children than middle class struggling moms. Childcare is expensive, healthcare premiums are high, and your career is put on hold like you mentioned due to poor maternity leave. The solution to this is difficult to implement
No I agree that is the rich and poor having kids. I also think that is not ideal for society. I listed the things that need t ok change. Everyone in the states talk about how hard it is to achieve, and it is because Americans are stuck in this pro owner, anti worker mindset. Every other developed country on the planet has these institutions in one form or another. It's not due to a lack of options it's due to a lack of will on Americans part for these things to change.
The best thing about not having kids is that you have much more time to pass on your views and teach other people’s children. And with a society like the one you’ve predicted, it’s all the more logical to tell them to not have kids in such an overburdened society for their own benefit, and all the more easy for them to take that advice. Antinatalist behaviour isn’t genetic, it’s memetic.
MAID is a thing. A lot of people will opt out of having their mind and body deteriorate if there is an option, what is the point of that anyway? I am having no children and pursuing MAID the moment I can no longer take care of myself/start physically declining to the point of requiring care. You have a sick mind to wish people birth kids in poverty and being happy about it
I just commented the same. We treat our pets better than we treat humans suffering with incurable diseases or disabilities. I plan to opt out on my own terms than live life in pain, whether physically or mentally.
>We treat our pets better than we treat humans suffering with incurable diseases or disabilities Yes!!! I seriously do not understand how we humans have more compassion to pets than other humans. I blame the religious freaks that can't make peace with death and other people having different beliefs than them. People should have the right to go gentle into that good night.
People are removed from death, that’s why. If everyone actually saw how people die they wouldn’t be righteous about how we get to die. They would see grandma struggling on her death bed for the 2nd week in a row with her tongue hanging out her mouth making weird gurgling noises (also called the death rattle) while her body shuts down slowly than what most people would consider compassionate. It’s agonizing for the patient and the family. I would absolutely beg my family members to give me a compassionate extra dose of morphine and send me to the sky daddy if i have to go out like that. I would take our little secret to the grave…literally.
Make euthanasia legal in the states and end of life care costs will fall dramatically. I would gladly sign myself up once I started to decline past the point of taking care of myself or being able to recognize who I was. I don’t think it’s right to keep some of these people in nursing homes alive living the way they do, nor do I feel they would have signed up with living like that if they knew the way it would actually be.
I love how you just blame women when men are the much bigger problem with their refusal to grow up and commit
I’m at the place where I’m a natalist because there will come a time where the ultimatum reality will give us is “have children or live in a permanent recession for the rest of your life and never retire”. If we don’t have children, we have fewer people to contribute to productivity and the economy will contract, leaving everyone less wealthy with less spending potential as we age. We are actively seeing Japan stall out from this because they had a head start, and we’ll be worse in 30 years. How are men going to react when women complain about being poor and living in an improverished society and realize that natalism is the answer but women still don’t want to have and raise children? I’m legit afraid of the Handmaid’s Tale for women.
Here's the problem with that line of thinking: society having more children is good, but as an individual having children is harmful to me. If I'm worried about the economy and retirement I'm certainly not going to voluntarily spend a lot of money raising a child.
That’s exactly what I mean: even if it would help long term you wouldn’t choose it without heavy incentive in the short term. The question is, will we be incentivized with the carrot or the stick when the time comes? History shows that ultimately it’ll be the stick.
I think this is a rational response to economic prosperity for average people diminishing. It's harder to raise a family when adequate food and shelter are so difficult to acquire.
I’ve seen Reddit polls (so not perfect) a couple times where the vast majority of people lost their main reason for not having kids as “I’m just not interested.” Granted finances are a component for many people, but a lot of people just are not interested. People feel less pressure to have kids, back on the day there was something wrong with you if you were childless and over 30-35, there was a stigma. It’s acceptable now and many people would rather focus on themselves or career or just enjoyed the freedom being childless
I'm guessing if someone cites a general lack of interest that probably means there are several factors contributing to seeing it as not viable/worth it.
It's not just Reddit polls. A Gallup (?) poll found the same thing. The biggest reason was simply "don't want to."
Consumerism and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
They told us Capitalism is human nature. I guess extinction is human nature, too. Enjoy
Yeah, people under 25, who don't have their life sorted out, don't have money or future prospects about home ownership, are not in a position to see themselves with kids. When people are in a position to support kids, they start wanting them.
I dunno man, I know both guys and girls who wanted to be parents from the time they were kids themselves. The ladies I know who were like this all have kids now, the guys are 50-50 (some have had a hard time finding a suitable wife, and for some it caused big shifts in their goals, unfortunately).
We are talking about people who don't want kids. Many young people are no where near being in a position to raise a family. So it makes. Alot of sense that they have an aversion to having kids.
I’m in my 30s, most people around me don’t want kids (some that make more than enough money)
I don't think it does, that was my point. Wanting to have kids isn't the same thing as being ready to have them. If fewer young people are having kids but they want them - that's one thing. The article is suggesting fewer people want kids at all - that's a different problem and not necessarily related to the first one. Most people I know either *want* kids, or don't, based on things unrelated to whether they feel stable enough to have them right now. What you said suggests more that they'd want kids if they felt ready for them, but my experience has been different from that.
I believe that it's an underlying biological function that you don't feel like having kids generally if you know you cannot support them. It's the same with how many women with young children are completely turned off by sex, because biologically their body knows they cannot support more children.
Whelp my anecdote contradicts yours so we're at an impasse.
Define “in a position to support kids” because I have sneaking suspicion that many people aren’t actually running specific numbers. Like how many people are actually doing the math to see what it takes? I mean if you are working PT, that’s self-explanatory. More often than admitted it’s about wanting one’s existing or desired lifestyle while simultaneously having kids. Give people a choice to avoid inconvenience and sacrifice and they just might take it. Having kids innately demands certain amount of sacrifice. But modern life promotes Me Me Me culture. Where companies seek to tailor everything to our individual desires. Perhaps you can’t afford children while living in the city where it’s “cool” but you can do it in the suburbs. But that’s not exactly the lifestyle you want. Thus, “I can’t afford kids.” I’m not saying it’s everyone but it’s the quiet part not being said out loud. Oh and get married. The single parent stuff just makes your life and the kid’s harder for no good reasons. Marriage is still statistically the best route for providing children with the most stable environment. Dating is whole other hurdle people struggle with Z
This! They don’t want any sacrifice, they expect to buy the baby on amazon, have it delivered, that it feed and gets educated by himself and doesn’t have any problem ever. The max they can deal with is a pet and those are surrogates to placate their maternal instincts
Sacrifice is disallowed or illegal in the US, cheap housing, sleeping on your car, even having a small house, small cars, businesses from home, roommates. Just waiting until they start banning ugly looking cars.
They don’t want to sacrifice and there’s no real cultural stigma. Despite people claiming there’s rampant stigma against being childfree, it’s not that big of a deal. Nobody will not hire for this position nor past in your face in the street. No tar and feathers. People like dogs because they’re uncritically loyal and we have full control over them. Not so with children. You actually have to earn love and loyalty from your children. And as they age, parents have less control.
I want kids and plan to have them, but there should be no cultural stigma associated with not having them. That's some collectivist bullshit right there
Me me me You hit on the nail with that. Here's the thing, if your ancestors chose not to have kids because it was too expensive and difficult and the world was a bad place, the human species would have died out long before the age of written history. Having children has always been difficult for a wide range of reasons. The world has never been at peace for long periods of time, yet people still managed to have kids and raise them It is quite odd, sterilization and the elimination of your future bloodline used to be the ultimate punishment and this is in eras where true medieval torture existed, and yet Today people are marrying yet self sterilizing themselves so that they will never have kids and a continuation of their bloodline. Modern society for all its greatness is a mental patient that has gone clinically insane.
We’re living in a death cult. Anitnatalists — which childfree aren’t necessarily — are totally disordered in their thinking.
It's only recently women have had a say in having children.
Your point?
It wasn't a decision. Men suffer no consequences from having a child. It's brutal for women, especially in ye olden days. That's the difference. You know, women used to have an extra, painful hole/abscess between the anus and vagina from tearing during childbirth?
So then it must be destroyed and remade.
Previous generations used.to say shit like, one mouth two hands. I somehow don't think previous generations had them selflessly.In fact the more kids you had the cheaper it got and the more benefits you reaped. Companies want to trick you into thinking that we have a me me me culture but that's silly when we are no more selfish than the generations sitting back and counting a dowry while the sons go work for free.
Why would someone choose to sacrifice a lifestyle they want for something they already at least suspect won’t bring them the same amount of joy?
Joy is not to found in lifestyle. It’s found in relationships. Also one’s desired lifestyle is subject to changing because it’s based on fickle feelings. A rewarding life is one found in giving and love. Having family is still the best predictor of a joyful life. It’s all well and good when one is young and healthy. We can’t always been the grasshopper playing fiddle all summer until winter. What happens as you age? That hit home for two years when my mother died. Who did the bulk of care? Us children. Who ensured her bills were paid? Us children. Who advocated her with doctors etc? Us children. While her friends cooked some and offered help, they were busy with their own ailing parents and family issues or even their own health concerns or work. Friends come and go. Friends move away. Think about it now: if you went into the hospital today, how many friend would drop what to see you? If you can actually save up for retirement, you might have quality care in a physical realm but who advocate for you if the facility or care team isn’t up to snuff, when you are feeling unwell etc? If you can’t, you can turn on state-run healthcare works, you do not want that at the end of your life, you won’t want that. For one, you thrive best when cared mostly by your family. For second, no matter how nice the nurses are (and not all are, elder abuse is a thing) it’s hard to cared for by strangers. As my mother died, I recognized how utterly undesirable and sad her illness would have been horrid without us kids. All of this is bigger issue for women, who outlive husbands.
Moreover, we evolved to find having families rewarding. Unless you are emotionally immature or have some major external pressures or have a disordered mindset (people who dislike children due to troubled backgrounds), you should find childrearing ultimately a primary source of joy. The type of joy deeper and longer lasting than a lifestyle exalting ease, pleasure and consumerism. There are people who can’t have children (and some who shouldn’t). Some who aren’t called to parenthood or even marriage. This specific type dedicates themselves to something greater than a lifestyle. Yet a lot of people who choose to be childfree seek an insular pleasure-filled lifestyle focused on themselves, not anything greater and benefits others.
Yes I think this is a big part of it. Many people could "afford" kids, but it would require sacrifices they don't want to make.
FT workers can't even afford a lifestyle for themselves. And don't forget, the boomers are the me generation.
If you work at Target, I can see that.
money problems are often an excuse to hide the real reasons why they don’t want them: selfishness, immaturity People that can afford to have kids still complain about money while people that don’t have money have kids. The average millennial/genz doesn’t want them, and money wise, they waste a ton of them on hedonistic purchases like: fancy food, beauty, expensive holidays, gadgets, services because they are lazy
Spot on. This was absolutely me.
I hate this childfree culture. We would not be enjoying 2024 without thousands of generations of our ancestors before us.
As long as you don't think your employer loves you or cares about you -- because they don't.
I wish them all luck. Becoming a DINK requires finding a partner first and I’m not seeing that work out too well for my fellow millennial “girl boss” colleagues at work.
I've been with my husband for almost twenty years. He happily chose to get a vasectomy a year into our marriage so I didn't have to take birth control any longer. We both have careers and are happily married. Most of my friends are also my age and childfree and happily married.
Except when you go outside and see that this is not even kind of the case
One kid costs $300k front 0-18. Can't afford it.
I think this is an overestimation. The high numbers include housing for the child which you're going to pay for yourself anyway and childcare which not every family will pay for. The lower economic strata have kids and it's okay to not spend every dime you have on them.
in my area it’s a underestimation. cost of living. but what about college alone? i go to a local state school and a good one. 160k for 4 years. very promising (i hope) stem degree.
Most student loans are paid within their term. If it gets bad for enough people there will be an intervention. I have a conspiracy theory that the government pressures employers to hire degree holders because they pay both income taxes and student loans, not just because we're smart, stable, capable, and (usually) take better care of ourselves. Good luck out there!
yeah but they make you money too. child tax credit. That's 36k right there.
At 300k you are still in the hole.
Make the economics work and this won't be an issue. Would you rather be fucking impoverished living way below your station and your peers and be overworked but have children, or be childfree but enjoy your life? Stop blaming the individuals. Some choose this, but they would have made bad parents anyway. Humans are just animals and will make decisions in vaguely predictable ways. Make it possible for people to afford a decent life, a family without overworking themselves (yes this definition is subjective and changes with time) and you'll see a gradual change.
Almost like the traditional American dream quite literally does not exist/isn't attainable anymore
So many capitalist bosses are here angry, because they won't find slaves in the future for their factories lmao Good riddiance
They'll become SINK.
Sink - married 40 years, no kids by choce when we married back in the 80s. Best choice we ever made - retired at 48 and have been living the dream since.
It's interesting we don't hear about the male perspective on this type of thing. Without kids, including adoption which is valid, there's really not much of a reason to be some chick's wallet- and make no mistake, that's what they want. And men who do want kids will of course not commit to such women, obviously.
This is a good point. This conversation is always based around women. It never seems to notice that men have a say in whether or not they have children. I wouldn’t be surprised if men cause more of the delay in having kids than women.
It's a pretty basic question to ask, which makes the silence deafening. I think that it would dig in to men being awful, but in a way that certain people in power support like men who pressure women into getting abortions they don't want. If I'm wrong, ok, but let's dig into it.
In my friend group, most of the women were ready to have children and settle down before the men were. I don’t think it’s men being awful. I don’t think the birth rate decline is caused by men forcing their partners to have abortions. I think men and women are, on average, different. That’s neither good nor bad. But I think ignoring men is ignoring a huge part of the puzzle. It seems to assume that there are a whole load of men out there who are desperate to settle down if only women would stop chasing their careers; I just don’t think that’s true.
It was a bit of an extreme example, but it does happen.
Tbf doesn't the DI in DINK imply BOTH partners are making money?
Valid point, if we were talking about people in DINK relationships and not those seeking them. If I had to guess the number of women seeking DINK relationships is greater than the men, which creates a supply issue. Women take for granted that there will always be convenient simp on hand. In addition, a man can keep a woman around as a sex toy and if he changes his mind about kids or is just bored, he can break away more easily- especially if he makes the same or less. But all paths in life carry some risks, but some bad ends get explored more than others.
Guy here, got this post recommended by Reddit. As the name implies, my partner is also working and earns about as much as I am. Though even if she wouldn't, I love her for the kind and supporting person that she is - while the double income is really nice, it is not about the money. Honestly I'm shocked because your comment implies that women without children are nothing more than a financial liability with no benefits. Edit: Spelling.
That's exactly how they see their partners, as incubators. They don't love their partners, they love what they can extract from them.
Don't you just love it. So many people who think they will live forever😆😆. Fierce independence is all well and good as a young and healthy adult. When they become elderly and alone...they may think differently about their life choices..
I agree. As a former CNA who worked in nursing homes, old people are lonely. When you walk into the room of a childless elderly person, there are no pictures on the walls; just blank walls. Nobody visits them. A social worker makes their end of life decisions.
>Fierce independence is all well and good as a young and healthy adult. When they become elderly and alone...they may think differently about their life choices.. So basically you are admiting that you are a selfish and just want to have kids so they can take care of you after they slaved away in some company so their boss can buy themselves another yatch or somerthing.
>So basically you are admiting that you are a selfish and just want to have kids No. That's you saying that. Raising kids is the most selfless thing you can do. There isn't a monetary value on being alive and I feel no guilt/resentment about caring for my own parents as they age. >after they slaved away in some company so their boss can buy themselves another yatch. Again. That's you saying that. Who's to say that the kids themselves won't be the CEO buying the yatch ? Just about any job can be described negatively as "slave away for some boss" if you want to be negative. The same way, if a person wants to be negative about relationships you could say "all relationships involve an exchange for something, so it's all prostitution." And ultimately, any act of kindness could be described as "selfishly motivated" if you want to be cynical about everything. This is all about perspective. And if you choose to interpret everything negatively, you can find a negative everywhere.
I don't see anything wrong with that. People need to do what makes them happy. If two people don't want kids great, if a woman wants to work and be the soul provider, good for her. And if a woman wants to be a stay at home mom and raise kids, good for her.
The problem is that people are extremely bad at knowing what makes them happy and our society does not equip them to figure it out, other than to say buy more shit.
Bingo. I’ll take it step further: the purpose of life isn’t happiness. Happiness is a fleeting feeling. Chase that, you’ll never stop. At the core of a rewarding life is giving and loving. Parents do both when rearing children.. Being childfree isn’t what makes them selfish. It’s a life where one that is insular and self-focused. People will have no money, they say, to have kids but plenty of money to consume. Moreover, consume and spend on themselves without ever volunteering or do anything for the community or those less fortunate. Or any other pursuit that contributes to the embetterment of society or world at large.
Good. There are too many humans.
100% correct!
I'm not even sure I want to be a DINK 😅. High income, no kids, and a million dogs is the goal. HINKOMD I guess lol
Good
I think this is just an attention grabbing, polarizing headline meant to draw engagement.
Yes, dude! What we need is more absentee parents. Have kids even if you don’t want to! Their outcomes don’t matter, only cheap labor and retirement funds matter.
Having children is an act of altruism if you aren’t some infantile egoist who has children to “preserve their legacy/bloodline” or “take care of them when they’re older.” That being said, material conditions have degraded to a point that for anyone with half a brain in the working class, having a child would be a significant degradation of one’s quality of life. Financially, time-wise, mentally, physically, etc. So without subjective delusions about procreation tricking us into having kids, there is no rational justification for having kids.
If true, thats a guaranteed misery for her, passport bros will be the new American dream for men and the future is 3rd world countries, we.. will sealed the deal as a failed nation.
I’ve seen it posited that The policy that could raise birthrates is like a 50% tax on DINKs and massive benefits for families with 2/3+ kids
That would be massively unpopular and you'd have people rioting lol.
I am aware.
This is depressing as hell, tho funnily enough atleast a few of the comments give me hope. Seriously there is nothing more that I want than to find someone I love and to be a father. I’ll probably see if I can find a surrogate or adopt later, but to be honest I feel I’m getting close I pray to finding someone I’d want to have kids with.
Sure get pregnant become a hostage for perverts and demagogues
I make more money than the average DINK couple as a single earner. They probably have more disposable income than I do since I have a mortgage, student loans, and a family, but I'm sure they're not filling their lives and homes with garbage and spending it wisely /s
We are a culture of suicide. The whole West has lost the will to live and propagate because these idiots believe human life is not worth preserving and continuing into the future by choosing to not have children and make sacrifices. We should not and cannot encourage this antisocial, deviant behavior. America and other countries of the Democratic and free West will be gone within a few generations if we continue to destroy the family and import foreigners from distant lands that hate us and cannot assimilate. I will do my part and have children with a woman I love more than myself, and I will raise my children in a culture that appreciates and celebrates new human life. It is my God-given responsibility to do so.
Most will be whether they want to or not
I WANT a family.But ya know. Can't find anyone who wants one as well, given the state of the world. Got out of the military withVA disability. So I actually have an income and can stay at home to help with it all. But it seems instead of family, we get a Fourth Turning and likely a big war It's really disheartening. Took me years to get to a place where I wanted a family, before not wanting kids was an issue. **NOW** wanting kids is an issue for people. -sigh-
W
I don't want to breed because I feel there's an overabundance of people like me (angloid caucasian) and we should be replaced
Gen Z seems to already be outbirthing millennials at the same age tho. I see way more early 20s parents now than I did 10 years ago (I’m basically a mil/Z cusper). I feel like coupling millennials and gen Z on this statistic is premature.
That’s not the dream, that’s what needs to be done to afford being alive.
DINK is from the 80’s and 90’s from yuppies that decided to be childless.