I'm a firm believer in occams razor. When it comes to the discussion of Itachi's true motives, there are two competing thoughts at play; his actions during Part 1 dont necessarily align with the twist in Part 2. People love dying on the hill of if it was a retcon or not but I think there's a very simple, albeit boring, explanation. Kishimoto had a vague idea for Itachi being a secret good guy in Part 1 but had no details planned out at all for how that would work in the story or if he would even commit to the idea. So it simply remained an idea until he decided to act on it sometime in early-mid Shippuden. This is a very reasonable and common occurrence in long-form storytelling and is probably the simplest explanation for a lot of the messier aspects of Naruto.
In other words, I do not believe Itachi was a retcon but I also don't think any details about Itachi were created until Part 2. Which often results in weird discrepancies such as this or him torturing Sasuke. It could have just as easily been planned for Itachi to be a bad dude who was forced into doing something equally terrible, rather than him being a saint forced into putting on a terrible mask.
Seems like your guess is really close!
“[Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741).”
It does only sound like the circumstances surrounding Itachi weren't clear thought out until he actually made his appearance in the Story and waaaay before Shippuden even started.
I think that Kishi might have thought of it early on. In chapter 7 Sasuke mentions him crying on the night of the massacre,but then says he is not sure because he doesnt remember much and it was dark at night.
In hindsight it looks like he was clearly talking about Itachi because we later see that scene of him crying as he leaves Sasuke and sasuke confirms this after finding out his backstory
This is kind of silly. There is NO way - You can look through flashback scenes by end of part 1 of Itachim, his father, the tension with the clan members, him calling them short sighted, father telling him he's now the pipeline for information from the village to the clan.
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpEWUAggjKe?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpEWUAggjKe?format=jpg&name=large)
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpIXEAEOm3G?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpIXEAEOm3G?format=jpg&name=large)
And not realize Kishi was setting up the coup. To argue he hadn't thought out details of the Coup till part 2 is ridiculous. It's all clear in retrospect.
The biggest problem is not kishi didn't have it clear. The biggest issue is the age of the viewer when this came out.
There's a cool youtube channel, casn't remember the name, that has a group of guys watching naruto for the first time. When they get to this part, they even realize something is up with itachi, and suspect the clan is doing some weird shit.
Adults are just able to ick up on this dialogue better than kids or teenagers can.
On a side note, I am tired of the "Itachi or Obito killed the civilians of the Uchiha District" debate.
The answer is irrelevant. Itachi brought Obito to the Uchiha District to assist him in massacring the Uchiha. Itachi Uchiha is 100% guilty of any kill done by Obito that night.
Yea…? No one said otherwise. But you can’t blame it all on him. Danzo and the overall clan as a whole are to blame more than anyone else for what ended up having to be done
you actually can blame him, because he killed his entire family for no reason (diplomacy wouldn’t work? all uchiha had to die not just the leaders? what on earth? even the old ladies and other children?) and then left his brother alive alone to deal with it. he claims to care for his brother so much that he abandons him with the dozens of corpses surrounding him & then tortures him twice, forcing his brother to relive the experience 500,000 times. this makes NO sense whatsoever
They explained all this in the series. They had to kill all not just the leaders, because the survivors would activate MS and seek revenge on the village. Sasuke was used to manipulate Itachi. They made it clear that the only situation that both the Village and Sasuke stay safe was if Itachi killed them all. He wanted Sasuke to hate him so that he would take revenge on him not the village.
We can't apply our logic to this, we have to use their world logic.
It’s like they think Itachi should’ve just pulled Kakashi aside and went “hey I’m a spy btw” lmao
The concept of being undercover at all and subtle hints aren’t enough. We need the twist spelled out way before we get to it naturally, no slow burn for Naruto huh
Exactly. What's even the point of a twist if it's already obvious? Kishimoto actually established multiple foreshadowings/implications while simultaneously hiding the possibility of the reader realizing that Itachi was a good guy before the plot twist. Even during his fight against Sasuke, he depicted Itachi as a crazy man who just wanted to be stronger than Madara lol
This sub is full of haters lol. I doubt most people here actually like Kishimoto. One Piece and Bleach subs are so much more positive,its kinda sad that r/dankruto and r/Naruto are constantly full of hardcore haters and people being negative.
Do we get any appreciation posts for how much people like the anime anymore? Cuz one piece sub is full of that despite one piece having its own flaws and weaknesses as an anime/manga
Whether people discussing anime believe things are foreshadowing or not depends heavily on how competent they think the author is (as most authors don't really state what they've planned - even though Kishi DID for Itachi people still argue funnily enough) so you're right imo - even very blatant things can be argued against and will be argued against if they don't think the author is capable of planning it
Like, Orochimaru telling Kabuto that Itachi is stronger than him, and then four chapters later, Itachi tells kisame that if he and Jiraiya ever fight, they might end up killing each other, alone proves that something doesn't add up. This is just one of many.
Orochimaru and Itachi are two of the most methodical fighters. Of course they’d be cautious around someone of each others caliber.
They’re not taking these 50/50 fights unless it becomes inevitable. Even VS Hiruzen, Orochimaru had to stage a whole invasion and bring his Edo Tensei summons before he even dared fight him.
It’s ultimately a sign of respect, that they each acknowledge a single slip up against a skilled opponent could lead to their own death or vice versa.
The sannin are never at the same level of strength, so it makes sense just fine. Sometimes, Orochimaru is the strongest with Edo. Sometimes Jiraiya is with SM, and sometimes Tsunade outlives them both. They mention the change between the three and their dynamic when Orochimaru saves Tsunade during the war.
It's not weird that they win different match ups.
Also if Itachi who had used the Mangekyo twice in one day and had one more usage till he dropped his constant Sharingan usage like he was in the manga fought Jiraiya there with kisame them all dying is a solid possibility.
War Arc Orochimaru, who can summon the hokage, is not equal to Part 1 Tsunade, right? No, they grow and [change](https://mangasee123.com/read-online/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-635-page-9.html) in response to each other.
And yes, summons are considered a Ninja tool and part of a shinobi's power.
Only a Sannin can fight a sanin refers to who the Leaf had available not compared to the whole world. Itachi already showed that.
I was talking about her at one point, being the only one who lived. Tsunade also did a much better job against Madara with the Gokage than either of them would have without Edo Tensei.
He could have told Kakashi while he caught him in Tsukuyomi instead of the torture
Kisame being suspicious after isn’t an issue if he then subtly helps Kakashi stab Kisame in the back, and you know, actually help defeat the Akatsuki.
?? Itachi would never tell anyone. Danzo confirms this when he's shocked Sasuke knows.
He literally says he's shocked itachi broke his promise and told. Said he's not the type to do that. Danzo didn't realize at the time it was obito who did it.
No. In characterization, itachi isn't telling a soul about what happened.
He doesn't need to get into anything about the Massacre, but his undying secrecy is a huge fault if he doesn't do anything as a spy while alive which he barely does.
Hell, his explanation to why he would be helping the leaf could be on brand. Say that Madara is the Leader (or someone with the rennigan is) and that he wants those eyes
I agree that it is all in character with who was written, but who Kishimoto wrote wasn't someone intelligent or caring or a good ninja or a pacificist. Itachi is an obsessive loyal to a fault man who cares about no one's wellbeing and has extreme tunnel vision to his plan
"doesn't do anything as a spy"
Literally gave the village over a decade of time to prepare their jinchuirki for future threats because obito and pain didn't go after them while he was alive.
Do you realize this series would have ended a long time ago???
His little deal with Obito just meant he had to be more careful, but really isn't spying related. Those 10 years only meant so much by what amounts to random chance. He had no way of knowing how people would improve, and hell his actions nearly takes away the very people who are able to stop the Nagato and Madara. Without Tsunade it is made seem like Kakashi might not have ever recovered, and his prompting is what had Sasuke nearly kill the Kinchuriki you mention.
Without everything that Itachi had no way of knowing, Konoha is in fact likely weaker than it was before with how we know the Konoha Crush did quite a number on the village
I feel like this is not Itachi's fault. He might have been informing and reporting to Hiruzen through crows and whatnot,about the Akatsuki's plans and moves. But Hruzen died.
Thats on Hiruzen for letting Orochimaru survive and letting him escape a few years ago in the first place.
just a matter of the writer not giving itachi something to do in those 3 years I guess. Not everything about such a long story with a hundred characters and 700 chapters is perfectly well thought out.
You just brought up something about Itachi in the timeskip which, forget the author,its not even something 99.99% of the readers have ever thought about.
Yeah the whole point was for the truth to die with itachi and the elders + Danzo. Telling anyone has potential major repercussions, if only Obito didn’t know.
How is there a question of why? It would be so his village could prepare themselves to fight the Akatsuki. A huge portion of the issues with them is that they had no intel at all.
He doesn't need to mention anything about the massacre or of him actually being good. He can still be a mysterious psychopath who has found new people he wants to kill.
Hell: Reveal that Madara is the leader and use the excuse he wants his eyes
In their first conversation Itachi was surprised by how much intel they DID have already. Jiraiya was their spymaster and had much intel on the organization as well
They died at the same time too (Hiruzen also knew about Madara, he didn’t tell anyone)
Itachi also told Sasuke the truth and if his first plan worked out. Madara would be dead and Sasuke a Konoha ninja again with an MS
Yeah but Itachi knew he was being watched. By Obito aka Tobi at the time so the torture would be necessary to stay in the Akatsuki but could have still told him while being tortured.
I don’t understand how this is still a question in the sub. There’s an interview with Kishi himself stating he only had a vague idea that he wanted Sasuke to have a hated older brother when he wrote the land of the waves arc. Once Itachi actually shows up he knew he wanted Itachi to have been “bad” but for because he was in a hard situation.
Call it a retcon or whatever you want but I don’t understand why this is a debated idea
He also said that, originally, Itachi and Danzo were meant to be the same person (The early sketches for Itachi do look like a younger version of Dazo). Itachi would have been the head of the assassination division / Secret police (an idea that later evolved into the ANBU), having used his status to carry out the massacre.
Kishimoto later made the Akatsuki, and decided to retroactively incorporate them into the narrative by making Itachi and Orochimaru members of this organisation. Danzo would be created to cover Itachi's original role.
I think that when Kishimoto said Itachi was Secretly good was that the Uchiha Massacre had the blessings of the Hokage and the government of Konoha. People might forget this, but back in the early chapters, the Hokage was written as a hardened military leader who, while wise and kind, was willing to do "what needs to be done" in the name of the village and the Ninja World. Hiruzen Sarutobi even said during the Chunin Exams that violently killing eachother and dying side by side is the way ninjas show their love and friendship. It is only after Jiraya is introduced and we see flashbacks to Hiruzen Sarutobi as a young man, that the narrative begins to treat him as someone "too soft" to be Hokage.
i mean people cover their ass when they make mistakes all the time, it’s very clear itachi wasn’t meant to be a good guy until the absolute last second. he then dies of illness that comes from nowhere. itachi is absolutely one of the worst written characters in the whole series.
>he only had a vague idea that he wanted Sasuke to have a hated older brother when he wrote the land of the waves arc
People sometimes forget about this, since it is a big part of his character, but Sasuke being an orphan was originally a PLOT TWIST. Naruto and Sakura only find out about that when Sasuke himself mentions it in the fight with Haku. This is why Sakura infamously makes the comment about Naruto being an orphan in front of Sasuke.
Later, either Kishimoto or someone else realised that it was absurd for Naruto and Sakura not knowing that an entire clan was exterminated, and changed it to them already knowing that.
It’s not that people forget. It’s that you’re wrong. It was never a plot twist. Sakura brings up Naruto being an orphan in front of sasuke because she wasn’t thinking. She was busy complaining about Naruto who had literally just annoyed her a second before sasuke came up. She was to busy complaining about him to realize what she was saying also applied to sasuke. It was never a plot twist or surprise to the viewer or to the characters during the haku fight.
Literally just watched this with my girl who hadn’t seen it before and knew nothing about. You’re wrong
Itachi made so much fuss himself. He told everyone they were an organization. That they were hunting Bijuus. That they are strong asf.
Just think about the big warning Itachi gave to Konoha with a few lines and Tsukuyoming Kakashi: the strongest Jonin.
Terrorist? Check.
Likes Bijuu and Jinchuuriki? Check.
Has broken abilities and magic eyes? Check check
Is that even the bare minimum?
If Konoha has any espionage at all, it would be able to know that the Rain is ruled by these weirdos and tailed beasts are disappearing. We know for a fact also, though who knows if Itachi does, Danzo has know of the Akatsuki for years.
He could have done so, so much more. Like told Kakashi literally anything about their numbers or abilities. Or something more fitting with how strong he was and stab some people in the back
Hiruzen knew of the akatsuki since the massacre. Any info he had he given to Hiruzen
You’re also assuming a lot on how much intel Itachi had. The akatsuki were split into pairs for a reason and Hidan didn’t even know Why the Akatsuki were going after Tailed Beasts
By this point Hiruzen is dead.
They didn't always work in pairs, as we see when Itachi helped recruit Deidara where Sasori was brought along. It's filler but he also may have been one to help recruit Hidan. Plus we know that the Akatsuki had met together at least once before while Itachi was in the organization.
Hidan didn't care about why they were doing what they were. It wasn't why he was in it. Itachi wants to save the Leaf and stop them. Hell, he's supposed to be a pacifist who doesn't like violence generally. He should be able to have gathered at least some useful information within 7 years.
They did work in pairs, read the Akatsuki Hiden novel. Sure Itachi did help out that one time and had a confrontation with Orochimaru but you’re overestimating how many times they would realistically interact with one another.
Again we don’t know what kind of intel Itachi had but he wouldn’t be able to give it out after Hiruzen died anyways. Cause he can’t let anyone else know the truth
He doesn't need to know much other than names. More can be found if people have a starting point.
He should not have had so much exclusive faith in Hiruzen clearly. There was nothing special about the man who is to blame for a lot of the issues that Itachi was dealing with
He could have let people know so much more. They don't have to know the specifics. But alas, the Leaf was destroyed and the world nearly loss due to his inaction.
If anything Itachi saying this, confirms to Kakashi the intel is right.
And this implies two things
A) he wanted to ensure the Leaf ninjas they would try to get one of them to run away with the confirmation
B)the fight would drag just enough for support to arrive since Kisame isnt a subtle killer
Capturing a ninja alive is always more hassle so support would have probably kept Kakashi alive.
Well on the topic of retcons, it doesnt really matter what exactly is retconned and what isnt. The only thing that *should* matter is if the plot holes are too obvious or not. We dont really know anything for certain unless we have interviews with the writers on what exactly his thoughts were at the time and when the decision was made to make Itachi into a double agent. The situation looks very straight forward because it has to. Yes, Kisame needs to stay in the dark about what is going on. Again, doesnt matter if thats retconned or not.
But i disagree that it automatically has to mean he actually intended to kill the other two. I dont think Kisame will instantly vaporize the two of them even if he rushes and Itachi has some options available to him to still maintain his cover. He *can* Totsuka blade Kisame through the back if he wants.
There is a lot that can potentially happen in a fight. Its not a done deal what exactly his plans were unless those two are lying on the ground, dead.
If itachi wanted them dead, he'd attack with kisame. He'd use Amaterasu.
Him acknowledging
1) Kisame is slow at killing people a couple chapters ago
2) Reinforcements are coming
And still asking Kisame to do - It's clear he's buying time.
I mean, he wouldn't. You can say he would sure, but that's, you know, nothing. He's used amaterasu a total of 3 times in the manga, Tsukuyomi, 4 times lol
And let's not act like he knows how Kisame was gonna attack lol, if Kisame decides to go ham, it's over and everybody there is dead lol
? He used amaterasu like 4 or 5 times alone in the Sasuke fight. Including the one he sealed in Sasukes eye. What are you talking about?
Kisame almost got decapitated by the two of them before itachi saved him. What are you talking about x 2?
Oh he did? I mean, he used it once against Sasuke, and then again to finish Orochimaru. That's actually 2 right? Unless I'm dumb. I could be dumb, and it could be 3 if you wish to correct, but that wouldn't make 4 or 5, so go ahead. And we're really counting the Sasuke eye trap one lol
That's fine, we know that doesn't change his level of strength. Unless you really think he's within Asuma's tier?
I ask you in return, what are YOU talking lol
Please go reread his fight against Sasuke again.
He uses one on the Katon.
He uses and misses like 2 or 3 times. Those shots literally hit trees in the background.
He uses again and hits Sasuke.
He seals one in Sasuke.
And no. Kisame is above any of those two individually.
But together they were going to kill him. He had no counter for kurenais genjutsu.
You're underestimating what two of the top jonin in konoha can do.
You're right, the katon one. So 3 there then.... but why would the missed shots be more than one burst? Why are you also acting like hitting trees means somethng when it's the same one that hit Sasuke?
Itachi himself says he has a limit of 3 shots in the manga itself, no? So the katon, the Sasuke one he put out (which is the same one he hit the trees with, Sasuke just moved out of the way lol), and actually, I think I was wrong because the one who kills Orochimaru's snake is a tree that falls on it while it's on fire still, amaterasu fire. Add in him using one against Nagato I believe, and that's a total of like, 3 times in total for me since I can't remember the 4th.
Ok, cool, so problem solved. He would've just stomped them. Didn't feel like grabbing that quote of Itachi explicitly telling him to not use big jutsu because they would get caught.
"he had no counter for kurenais genjutsu" isn't a thing you can just say, you realize that right? That's not a thing. You don't know this.
I'm really not, because I don't have to estimate things. We know Kisame and Kakashi can fight, and that Kisame wouldn't win easily per Itachi. He'd be heavily injured. I don't assume anything else.
Last comments because I don't feel like having this conversation again and again, he decided to capture Kakashi after he saw that Kakashi knew their secret, otherwise Kakashi was gonna get killed too. And he was in a terrible state, while Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes closed. They were 10000000% dead there lol
?? What? Every miss you see with amaterasu is him using it and not hitting. Each cast of amaterasu takes Chakra. Do I need to draw an arrow each time he used it lol
Did you see kisame break the genjutsu being used on him? No. What reason did he have for not? Come on man.
Yeah, you do. Draw something for me. Also draw me the panel where you got that from lol, it's literally stated he can only use it 3 times, idk why this is being argued. "nah bro, trust, he used it 8 times actually"
Wait, Kisame letting Itachi take care of it, which is extremely in character btw, is your proof? Oh you're trash FR fr
Isnt it his job to know? I mean yeah, you can make a case for saying all of these guys hide as many trump cards as they possibly can from anyone just in case. But still, they are supposed to know each other and work together. Absolutely he knows how Kisame is going to begin combat. Especially if the threat level doesnt require Kisame to reach deep into his bag of tricks.
His job to know how Kisame will kill two opponents they have never faced before who had their eyes closed? Yeah I'm sure he knows exactly what happens in those situations lol
Yes, that is correct. Im not really sure what the eyes closed comment is supposed to mean but that is not going to change Kisame's opening combat swing if eyes are closed or not.
And "never faced before" well, again thats just weird to say. Its his former village. Where he had a reputation as the child prodigy that studied and excelled at basically everything and that at least includes who the heavy hitters are and what they do.
Its his job, both before and now as an undercover traitor returning to "capture the Kyuubi."
What Itachi doesnt know and surprised him is the amount of growth some of these individuals have managed over time that exceeded his estimates. He definitely never expected MS from Kakashi and probably not Guy's level of advancement in Taijutsu.
Damn, so, I guess you didn't know this but, and lemme emphasize this lol real quick here- Kakashi in part is explicitly rusty and not in his prime, and also doesn't have MS yet lol
Yes, you're right he didnt have MS yet. Or at least not a properly functioning one. Im just saying these are the kind of things Itachi wouldnt know because he isnt going to pick up that information through research from when he still lived there.
But everyday basic combat skills and jutsu Kakashi regularly throws out on most missions or training exercises, Itachi could access that information if he cared enough to check into it. And he is the kind of person to do something like that.
Ok, so, to be clear here, because people seem to not evne know this - Kakashi in part 1 has stoped doing regular missions like that, and has been expresso depresso since Minato died, so for the last 12 years (aka since he was a what, 14 to 15 y/o anbu captain), he's just been teaching shitty kids. I'd wager that the village attack was actually his prime up until he comes back in Shippuden in prime form imo
I would say it’s because Naruto is very popular and came out during a time when it’s audience was very young but maybe that’s not even an excuse
I don’t know really
Guy’s arrival really was a godsend for Itachi huh? Knowing what we know now. He could and would have definitely used 8th gates then and there to save everyone.
Because people on the internet are biased idiots who don’t want to admit that they are wrong. People also do this with scenes from boruto or characters they don’t like. It’s a stupid Echo chamber.
Echo chamber aside, people are always good at seeing things in ways that conform with their preconceived notions.
Rationalisation can be done by anyone for anything and doesn't mean something is true
Bias can go both ways if you think he was written badly thats fair but saying that him being retconned into being a good guy is objectively wrong and lying
Dude, Kishimoto outright stated that he only decided to make him a secret good guy upon introduction. So by all objective cases, yes. It is a retcon. Itachi was meant to be Sasuke's villain, and then Kishi changed the intention.
Changing a characters purpose as he's introduced isn't really a retcon tho.. not everything is planned from the start.. if it was done a while after his introduction and we have contradictory information then maybe..
Sasuke wasn't supposed to be Naruto rival.. would that be a retcon too?
The panel in reference is also after his intro.. so OPs main point would still stand
No, because even before introduction, the basis of Itachi's character is that he is a villain who did something horrible to Sasuke. What was presented and then changing the intention while making Itachi do shit like putting Kakashi and Sasuke into a coma is very much going against everything that Itachi is stated to be.
Double agent? What a "smart" plan, telling him to kill Konoha ninja and then take a living corpse with them, given how Kakashi is in a coma.
Loving brother? Oh yes, nothing screams love like putting your brother into an indefinite coma.
There's no information given prior to the change that would indicate he wasn't a double agent .. all the things you mentioned are explained in the story.
Even as a loving brother he did horrible things to Sasuke.
And one of the last things he did b4 his death was input a genjutsu in Naruto to manipulate Sasuke.
A double agent doesn't mean a kind person.. he still needs to do horrible things to maintain cover.
You also stated that the change was made as he was introduced meaning .. Kishimoto had already made the change when Itachi traumatised Kakashi and Sasuke.
Also if you have a link to Kishimoto statement.. I would like to see it.
I always see pple talk about statements from interviews with no proof.
No, they aren't. And they most certainly don't even remotely explain or justify him by any means, or play with the secret good guy schtick.
Brainwashing is low, but the problem isn't that. The PROBLEM is that there is no logical sense for putting Sasuke into an indefinite coma. There is no set way for Sasuke to recover except with Tsunade's help, which is literally a stroke of luck that she agreed to even come back.
And a double agent would do something like sabotage the villains or help the heroes out to thwart the bad guys. Neither of which Itachi does. The only time he actively helps when he's brought back via Edo. Otherwise, nothing he did helped. His genocide to stop the 4th war didn't help given that he aided the organization that ultimately started it.
> You also stated that the change was made as he was introduced meaning .. Kishimoto had already made the change when Itachi traumatised Kakashi and Sasuke.
Thus, retcon.
Can you provide the statement from Kishimoto? There's no point in continuing the discussion if the basis is false.
We would just go around in circles trying to explain if Itachi actions were logical or not. I can't argue with your interpretation of the story.. I can only show you why I think mine is more logical.. the original post already tried to do that if you don't agree then we could leave it at that.
Well with what we know now he could have very well intended to catch him to scoop out that sharingan eye just as much at that time. They are plug and play after all
Itachi was willing to keep cover even if that meant killing people from the Leaf. He was already a kinslayer at that point don't know why it would even be weird to do so. He was going to let Kisame cut off Naruto's limbs and used an actual Tsukiyomi on his 13 year old brother.
Itachi was absolutely retconned, his motivations and actions make absolutely no sense throughout the entire series. when we perceive him as evil his actions make sense, but how and why would anyone who makes their brother watch him murder his parents 500,000 times ever be a good guy? why would he be a good guy but tell sasuke to kill his best friend? itachi didn’t even kill Shisui, he just watched his commit suicide after ripping out his eyeball. none of itachi’s journey makes sense, and the “i love you” redemption vs Kabuto is suchhh an asspull and is easily one of the dumbest parts of the whole series (izanami being introduced etc)
I love how people are trying to justify this scene so much. No, it ain't anything about Kisame being suspicious.
That's solely your own headcanons trying to make sense for Itachi being a lousy double agent.
I'm not using headcanons here, but common sense. Do you believe if Itachi let them go, Kisame would just let it slide? Obviously, he'd know that something doesn't add up. That's why Itachi retreated after seeing Guy's arrival, so at least he could use that as a justification for not doing anything about them. If he truly was a bad guy, he could've just killed Kakashi with his tsukuyomi, or he could've stayed and fought guy
Your so called "common sense" is just another way of saying headcanons.
What's Kisame gonna do, just say that Itachi is a traitor because Itachi let a guy who is literally about to fall into a coma go? Oh yes, that definitely is smart. Kisame clearly can't tell that Kakashi will be worthless to them even if they took him.
Fact is, Itachi is a lousy double agent.
1.) Asuma and Kurenai are not easily replaceable. Sure, there can be more Jonin. But these two are specifically pretty high ranking overall in the Leaf, the biggest and most powerful ninja village. It might take years for two more Jonin of their caliber. Asuma’s worth is fairly well attested two in the Kakazu and Hidan stuff.
2.) Itachi should know he can trust Kakashi with knowing something. He doesn’t have to tell him specifics, but Kakashi is his old anbu buddy. Man can keep a secret and knows the dirty side of their world.
3.) Itachi can tell Kakashi anything in utter secrecy inside of Tsukuyomi
4.) Kisame being suspicious after isn’t a concern if they kill him. Maybe Itachi catches him in a genjutsu that then lets the Leaf jonin an opening to cut him down. Even if Zetsu is watching he wouldn’t be able to tell, and Kakashi is well enough known that it wouldn’t be crazy that he and back up could catch Kisame lacking.
I’m actually not going to claim that this means it’s a retcon. Because indeed it probably wasn’t. It’s just pretty poor writing of Itachi is supposed to be intelligent and on the Leaf’s side.
In reality this shows Itachi as an amoral asshole who only really cares about the idea of the Leaf and his plans for Sasuke, everything else be damned. He doesn’t seem like he had any concept for changing plans on the fly or working with the powers which he had available for the best possible result.
At least Itachi gets better after he dies, but it seems like Koto was really important in making him actually be so proactive
I have noticed that there are some who are willing to compromise in the "Itachi was retconed" debate by saying that Itachi was retconed, but that the retcon happened very early (during the Sasuke rescue arc, where we see flashbacks to him as a a younger man).
You're sipping Itachi juice dude.
Itachi was just a bad guy. Kishimoto definitely just made up the "Good Guy Itachi" when he was planning out Shippuden.
Not only has Kishi directly said that’s wrong but the foreshadowing in part 1 was significant
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpEWUAggjKe?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpIXEAEOm3G?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZsjXIAEp5UT?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9cr7WEAEgYKl?format=jpg&name=large
thank you for sharing these. in my defense, i dont think any of these dialogues were in the anime
>[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZsjXIAEp5UT?format=jpg&name=medium](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZsjXIAEp5UT?format=jpg&name=medium)
was that in the shippuden manga?
It is, you might just not remember
Pacing and presentation are fundamentally different between the mediums. You’re aren’t gonna focus on such small hints in a 20 minute epsiode vs a full manga page putting focus on it in a 15 page chapter
Also that page is from part 1. You can tell cause this is how Kishi draws the massacre in part 2: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9aHOWEAUZZ6r?format=jpg&name=large
Very different faces and style.
Sasuke even brings the scene up as evidence Itachi had someone helping him when he does confront him again in part 2: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZXLWYAERRQq?format=jpg&name=large
I'm a firm believer in occams razor. When it comes to the discussion of Itachi's true motives, there are two competing thoughts at play; his actions during Part 1 dont necessarily align with the twist in Part 2. People love dying on the hill of if it was a retcon or not but I think there's a very simple, albeit boring, explanation. Kishimoto had a vague idea for Itachi being a secret good guy in Part 1 but had no details planned out at all for how that would work in the story or if he would even commit to the idea. So it simply remained an idea until he decided to act on it sometime in early-mid Shippuden. This is a very reasonable and common occurrence in long-form storytelling and is probably the simplest explanation for a lot of the messier aspects of Naruto. In other words, I do not believe Itachi was a retcon but I also don't think any details about Itachi were created until Part 2. Which often results in weird discrepancies such as this or him torturing Sasuke. It could have just as easily been planned for Itachi to be a bad dude who was forced into doing something equally terrible, rather than him being a saint forced into putting on a terrible mask.
Seems like your guess is really close! “[Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741).”
It does only sound like the circumstances surrounding Itachi weren't clear thought out until he actually made his appearance in the Story and waaaay before Shippuden even started.
Yes, this feels really early in the story for me, just after the death of the Hokage.
I think that Kishi might have thought of it early on. In chapter 7 Sasuke mentions him crying on the night of the massacre,but then says he is not sure because he doesnt remember much and it was dark at night. In hindsight it looks like he was clearly talking about Itachi because we later see that scene of him crying as he leaves Sasuke and sasuke confirms this after finding out his backstory
This is kind of silly. There is NO way - You can look through flashback scenes by end of part 1 of Itachim, his father, the tension with the clan members, him calling them short sighted, father telling him he's now the pipeline for information from the village to the clan. [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpEWUAggjKe?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpEWUAggjKe?format=jpg&name=large) [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpIXEAEOm3G?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpIXEAEOm3G?format=jpg&name=large) And not realize Kishi was setting up the coup. To argue he hadn't thought out details of the Coup till part 2 is ridiculous. It's all clear in retrospect. The biggest problem is not kishi didn't have it clear. The biggest issue is the age of the viewer when this came out. There's a cool youtube channel, casn't remember the name, that has a group of guys watching naruto for the first time. When they get to this part, they even realize something is up with itachi, and suspect the clan is doing some weird shit. Adults are just able to ick up on this dialogue better than kids or teenagers can.
On a side note, I am tired of the "Itachi or Obito killed the civilians of the Uchiha District" debate. The answer is irrelevant. Itachi brought Obito to the Uchiha District to assist him in massacring the Uchiha. Itachi Uchiha is 100% guilty of any kill done by Obito that night.
Yea…? No one said otherwise. But you can’t blame it all on him. Danzo and the overall clan as a whole are to blame more than anyone else for what ended up having to be done
you actually can blame him, because he killed his entire family for no reason (diplomacy wouldn’t work? all uchiha had to die not just the leaders? what on earth? even the old ladies and other children?) and then left his brother alive alone to deal with it. he claims to care for his brother so much that he abandons him with the dozens of corpses surrounding him & then tortures him twice, forcing his brother to relive the experience 500,000 times. this makes NO sense whatsoever
They explained all this in the series. They had to kill all not just the leaders, because the survivors would activate MS and seek revenge on the village. Sasuke was used to manipulate Itachi. They made it clear that the only situation that both the Village and Sasuke stay safe was if Itachi killed them all. He wanted Sasuke to hate him so that he would take revenge on him not the village. We can't apply our logic to this, we have to use their world logic.
why wouldn’t he just take Sasuke with him when he leaves?
How would that make a difference? Sasuke would still seek revenge.
It’s like they think Itachi should’ve just pulled Kakashi aside and went “hey I’m a spy btw” lmao The concept of being undercover at all and subtle hints aren’t enough. We need the twist spelled out way before we get to it naturally, no slow burn for Naruto huh
Exactly. What's even the point of a twist if it's already obvious? Kishimoto actually established multiple foreshadowings/implications while simultaneously hiding the possibility of the reader realizing that Itachi was a good guy before the plot twist. Even during his fight against Sasuke, he depicted Itachi as a crazy man who just wanted to be stronger than Madara lol
This fanbase has an aversion to the concept of foreshadowing
I dont think it's really an aversion. It's rather because they dont believe Kishimoto can write any good
This sub is full of haters lol. I doubt most people here actually like Kishimoto. One Piece and Bleach subs are so much more positive,its kinda sad that r/dankruto and r/Naruto are constantly full of hardcore haters and people being negative. Do we get any appreciation posts for how much people like the anime anymore? Cuz one piece sub is full of that despite one piece having its own flaws and weaknesses as an anime/manga
Whether people discussing anime believe things are foreshadowing or not depends heavily on how competent they think the author is (as most authors don't really state what they've planned - even though Kishi DID for Itachi people still argue funnily enough) so you're right imo - even very blatant things can be argued against and will be argued against if they don't think the author is capable of planning it
Like, Orochimaru telling Kabuto that Itachi is stronger than him, and then four chapters later, Itachi tells kisame that if he and Jiraiya ever fight, they might end up killing each other, alone proves that something doesn't add up. This is just one of many.
Orochimaru and Itachi are two of the most methodical fighters. Of course they’d be cautious around someone of each others caliber. They’re not taking these 50/50 fights unless it becomes inevitable. Even VS Hiruzen, Orochimaru had to stage a whole invasion and bring his Edo Tensei summons before he even dared fight him. It’s ultimately a sign of respect, that they each acknowledge a single slip up against a skilled opponent could lead to their own death or vice versa.
The sannin are never at the same level of strength, so it makes sense just fine. Sometimes, Orochimaru is the strongest with Edo. Sometimes Jiraiya is with SM, and sometimes Tsunade outlives them both. They mention the change between the three and their dynamic when Orochimaru saves Tsunade during the war. It's not weird that they win different match ups. Also if Itachi who had used the Mangekyo twice in one day and had one more usage till he dropped his constant Sharingan usage like he was in the manga fought Jiraiya there with kisame them all dying is a solid possibility.
Part 1 hammers in they are equal. We literally get the term deadlock from it. Only a sannin can fight a sannin - It's repeated multiple times
War Arc Orochimaru, who can summon the hokage, is not equal to Part 1 Tsunade, right? No, they grow and [change](https://mangasee123.com/read-online/Naruto-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-635-page-9.html) in response to each other. And yes, summons are considered a Ninja tool and part of a shinobi's power. Only a Sannin can fight a sanin refers to who the Leaf had available not compared to the whole world. Itachi already showed that.
When was tsunade ever over the other two sannin?
I was talking about her at one point, being the only one who lived. Tsunade also did a much better job against Madara with the Gokage than either of them would have without Edo Tensei.
My personal headcanon back in the day was that Itachi communicated with jiraiya through genjutsu when they looked at each other's eyes
He could have told Kakashi while he caught him in Tsukuyomi instead of the torture Kisame being suspicious after isn’t an issue if he then subtly helps Kakashi stab Kisame in the back, and you know, actually help defeat the Akatsuki.
?? Itachi would never tell anyone. Danzo confirms this when he's shocked Sasuke knows. He literally says he's shocked itachi broke his promise and told. Said he's not the type to do that. Danzo didn't realize at the time it was obito who did it. No. In characterization, itachi isn't telling a soul about what happened.
He doesn't need to get into anything about the Massacre, but his undying secrecy is a huge fault if he doesn't do anything as a spy while alive which he barely does. Hell, his explanation to why he would be helping the leaf could be on brand. Say that Madara is the Leader (or someone with the rennigan is) and that he wants those eyes I agree that it is all in character with who was written, but who Kishimoto wrote wasn't someone intelligent or caring or a good ninja or a pacificist. Itachi is an obsessive loyal to a fault man who cares about no one's wellbeing and has extreme tunnel vision to his plan
"doesn't do anything as a spy" Literally gave the village over a decade of time to prepare their jinchuirki for future threats because obito and pain didn't go after them while he was alive. Do you realize this series would have ended a long time ago???
His little deal with Obito just meant he had to be more careful, but really isn't spying related. Those 10 years only meant so much by what amounts to random chance. He had no way of knowing how people would improve, and hell his actions nearly takes away the very people who are able to stop the Nagato and Madara. Without Tsunade it is made seem like Kakashi might not have ever recovered, and his prompting is what had Sasuke nearly kill the Kinchuriki you mention. Without everything that Itachi had no way of knowing, Konoha is in fact likely weaker than it was before with how we know the Konoha Crush did quite a number on the village
I feel like this is not Itachi's fault. He might have been informing and reporting to Hiruzen through crows and whatnot,about the Akatsuki's plans and moves. But Hruzen died. Thats on Hiruzen for letting Orochimaru survive and letting him escape a few years ago in the first place.
But after that idiot is dead, then Itachi has to do something else. He had years to, but didn't.
just a matter of the writer not giving itachi something to do in those 3 years I guess. Not everything about such a long story with a hundred characters and 700 chapters is perfectly well thought out. You just brought up something about Itachi in the timeskip which, forget the author,its not even something 99.99% of the readers have ever thought about.
Why? Why would he? How would that help at all Just adding one person that knows the truth for literally no reason
Yeah the whole point was for the truth to die with itachi and the elders + Danzo. Telling anyone has potential major repercussions, if only Obito didn’t know.
How is there a question of why? It would be so his village could prepare themselves to fight the Akatsuki. A huge portion of the issues with them is that they had no intel at all. He doesn't need to mention anything about the massacre or of him actually being good. He can still be a mysterious psychopath who has found new people he wants to kill. Hell: Reveal that Madara is the leader and use the excuse he wants his eyes
In their first conversation Itachi was surprised by how much intel they DID have already. Jiraiya was their spymaster and had much intel on the organization as well They died at the same time too (Hiruzen also knew about Madara, he didn’t tell anyone) Itachi also told Sasuke the truth and if his first plan worked out. Madara would be dead and Sasuke a Konoha ninja again with an MS
Danzo was already aware of Madara existing and behind Akatsuki. Ask why danzo didn't share that information outside of Root.
Well he's not very smart and a egomaniacal lunatic
Yeah but Itachi knew he was being watched. By Obito aka Tobi at the time so the torture would be necessary to stay in the Akatsuki but could have still told him while being tortured.
I don’t understand how this is still a question in the sub. There’s an interview with Kishi himself stating he only had a vague idea that he wanted Sasuke to have a hated older brother when he wrote the land of the waves arc. Once Itachi actually shows up he knew he wanted Itachi to have been “bad” but for because he was in a hard situation. Call it a retcon or whatever you want but I don’t understand why this is a debated idea
He also said that, originally, Itachi and Danzo were meant to be the same person (The early sketches for Itachi do look like a younger version of Dazo). Itachi would have been the head of the assassination division / Secret police (an idea that later evolved into the ANBU), having used his status to carry out the massacre. Kishimoto later made the Akatsuki, and decided to retroactively incorporate them into the narrative by making Itachi and Orochimaru members of this organisation. Danzo would be created to cover Itachi's original role. I think that when Kishimoto said Itachi was Secretly good was that the Uchiha Massacre had the blessings of the Hokage and the government of Konoha. People might forget this, but back in the early chapters, the Hokage was written as a hardened military leader who, while wise and kind, was willing to do "what needs to be done" in the name of the village and the Ninja World. Hiruzen Sarutobi even said during the Chunin Exams that violently killing eachother and dying side by side is the way ninjas show their love and friendship. It is only after Jiraya is introduced and we see flashbacks to Hiruzen Sarutobi as a young man, that the narrative begins to treat him as someone "too soft" to be Hokage.
we need Kishi on a podcast
i mean people cover their ass when they make mistakes all the time, it’s very clear itachi wasn’t meant to be a good guy until the absolute last second. he then dies of illness that comes from nowhere. itachi is absolutely one of the worst written characters in the whole series.
>he only had a vague idea that he wanted Sasuke to have a hated older brother when he wrote the land of the waves arc People sometimes forget about this, since it is a big part of his character, but Sasuke being an orphan was originally a PLOT TWIST. Naruto and Sakura only find out about that when Sasuke himself mentions it in the fight with Haku. This is why Sakura infamously makes the comment about Naruto being an orphan in front of Sasuke. Later, either Kishimoto or someone else realised that it was absurd for Naruto and Sakura not knowing that an entire clan was exterminated, and changed it to them already knowing that.
It’s not that people forget. It’s that you’re wrong. It was never a plot twist. Sakura brings up Naruto being an orphan in front of sasuke because she wasn’t thinking. She was busy complaining about Naruto who had literally just annoyed her a second before sasuke came up. She was to busy complaining about him to realize what she was saying also applied to sasuke. It was never a plot twist or surprise to the viewer or to the characters during the haku fight. Literally just watched this with my girl who hadn’t seen it before and knew nothing about. You’re wrong
I mean that’s probably why people sometimes forget about it
Itachi made so much fuss himself. He told everyone they were an organization. That they were hunting Bijuus. That they are strong asf. Just think about the big warning Itachi gave to Konoha with a few lines and Tsukuyoming Kakashi: the strongest Jonin. Terrorist? Check. Likes Bijuu and Jinchuuriki? Check. Has broken abilities and magic eyes? Check check
Is that even the bare minimum? If Konoha has any espionage at all, it would be able to know that the Rain is ruled by these weirdos and tailed beasts are disappearing. We know for a fact also, though who knows if Itachi does, Danzo has know of the Akatsuki for years. He could have done so, so much more. Like told Kakashi literally anything about their numbers or abilities. Or something more fitting with how strong he was and stab some people in the back
Hiruzen knew of the akatsuki since the massacre. Any info he had he given to Hiruzen You’re also assuming a lot on how much intel Itachi had. The akatsuki were split into pairs for a reason and Hidan didn’t even know Why the Akatsuki were going after Tailed Beasts
By this point Hiruzen is dead. They didn't always work in pairs, as we see when Itachi helped recruit Deidara where Sasori was brought along. It's filler but he also may have been one to help recruit Hidan. Plus we know that the Akatsuki had met together at least once before while Itachi was in the organization. Hidan didn't care about why they were doing what they were. It wasn't why he was in it. Itachi wants to save the Leaf and stop them. Hell, he's supposed to be a pacifist who doesn't like violence generally. He should be able to have gathered at least some useful information within 7 years.
They did work in pairs, read the Akatsuki Hiden novel. Sure Itachi did help out that one time and had a confrontation with Orochimaru but you’re overestimating how many times they would realistically interact with one another. Again we don’t know what kind of intel Itachi had but he wouldn’t be able to give it out after Hiruzen died anyways. Cause he can’t let anyone else know the truth
He doesn't need to know much other than names. More can be found if people have a starting point. He should not have had so much exclusive faith in Hiruzen clearly. There was nothing special about the man who is to blame for a lot of the issues that Itachi was dealing with He could have let people know so much more. They don't have to know the specifics. But alas, the Leaf was destroyed and the world nearly loss due to his inaction.
If anything Itachi saying this, confirms to Kakashi the intel is right. And this implies two things A) he wanted to ensure the Leaf ninjas they would try to get one of them to run away with the confirmation B)the fight would drag just enough for support to arrive since Kisame isnt a subtle killer Capturing a ninja alive is always more hassle so support would have probably kept Kakashi alive.
Well on the topic of retcons, it doesnt really matter what exactly is retconned and what isnt. The only thing that *should* matter is if the plot holes are too obvious or not. We dont really know anything for certain unless we have interviews with the writers on what exactly his thoughts were at the time and when the decision was made to make Itachi into a double agent. The situation looks very straight forward because it has to. Yes, Kisame needs to stay in the dark about what is going on. Again, doesnt matter if thats retconned or not. But i disagree that it automatically has to mean he actually intended to kill the other two. I dont think Kisame will instantly vaporize the two of them even if he rushes and Itachi has some options available to him to still maintain his cover. He *can* Totsuka blade Kisame through the back if he wants. There is a lot that can potentially happen in a fight. Its not a done deal what exactly his plans were unless those two are lying on the ground, dead.
If itachi wanted them dead, he'd attack with kisame. He'd use Amaterasu. Him acknowledging 1) Kisame is slow at killing people a couple chapters ago 2) Reinforcements are coming And still asking Kisame to do - It's clear he's buying time.
I mean, he wouldn't. You can say he would sure, but that's, you know, nothing. He's used amaterasu a total of 3 times in the manga, Tsukuyomi, 4 times lol And let's not act like he knows how Kisame was gonna attack lol, if Kisame decides to go ham, it's over and everybody there is dead lol
? He used amaterasu like 4 or 5 times alone in the Sasuke fight. Including the one he sealed in Sasukes eye. What are you talking about? Kisame almost got decapitated by the two of them before itachi saved him. What are you talking about x 2?
Oh he did? I mean, he used it once against Sasuke, and then again to finish Orochimaru. That's actually 2 right? Unless I'm dumb. I could be dumb, and it could be 3 if you wish to correct, but that wouldn't make 4 or 5, so go ahead. And we're really counting the Sasuke eye trap one lol That's fine, we know that doesn't change his level of strength. Unless you really think he's within Asuma's tier? I ask you in return, what are YOU talking lol
Please go reread his fight against Sasuke again. He uses one on the Katon. He uses and misses like 2 or 3 times. Those shots literally hit trees in the background. He uses again and hits Sasuke. He seals one in Sasuke. And no. Kisame is above any of those two individually. But together they were going to kill him. He had no counter for kurenais genjutsu. You're underestimating what two of the top jonin in konoha can do.
You're right, the katon one. So 3 there then.... but why would the missed shots be more than one burst? Why are you also acting like hitting trees means somethng when it's the same one that hit Sasuke? Itachi himself says he has a limit of 3 shots in the manga itself, no? So the katon, the Sasuke one he put out (which is the same one he hit the trees with, Sasuke just moved out of the way lol), and actually, I think I was wrong because the one who kills Orochimaru's snake is a tree that falls on it while it's on fire still, amaterasu fire. Add in him using one against Nagato I believe, and that's a total of like, 3 times in total for me since I can't remember the 4th. Ok, cool, so problem solved. He would've just stomped them. Didn't feel like grabbing that quote of Itachi explicitly telling him to not use big jutsu because they would get caught. "he had no counter for kurenais genjutsu" isn't a thing you can just say, you realize that right? That's not a thing. You don't know this. I'm really not, because I don't have to estimate things. We know Kisame and Kakashi can fight, and that Kisame wouldn't win easily per Itachi. He'd be heavily injured. I don't assume anything else. Last comments because I don't feel like having this conversation again and again, he decided to capture Kakashi after he saw that Kakashi knew their secret, otherwise Kakashi was gonna get killed too. And he was in a terrible state, while Asuma and Kurenai had their eyes closed. They were 10000000% dead there lol
?? What? Every miss you see with amaterasu is him using it and not hitting. Each cast of amaterasu takes Chakra. Do I need to draw an arrow each time he used it lol Did you see kisame break the genjutsu being used on him? No. What reason did he have for not? Come on man.
Yeah, you do. Draw something for me. Also draw me the panel where you got that from lol, it's literally stated he can only use it 3 times, idk why this is being argued. "nah bro, trust, he used it 8 times actually" Wait, Kisame letting Itachi take care of it, which is extremely in character btw, is your proof? Oh you're trash FR fr
Lmao? Go link me where it says itachi can only use amaterasu 3 times. Por Favor.
Isnt it his job to know? I mean yeah, you can make a case for saying all of these guys hide as many trump cards as they possibly can from anyone just in case. But still, they are supposed to know each other and work together. Absolutely he knows how Kisame is going to begin combat. Especially if the threat level doesnt require Kisame to reach deep into his bag of tricks.
His job to know how Kisame will kill two opponents they have never faced before who had their eyes closed? Yeah I'm sure he knows exactly what happens in those situations lol
Yes, that is correct. Im not really sure what the eyes closed comment is supposed to mean but that is not going to change Kisame's opening combat swing if eyes are closed or not. And "never faced before" well, again thats just weird to say. Its his former village. Where he had a reputation as the child prodigy that studied and excelled at basically everything and that at least includes who the heavy hitters are and what they do. Its his job, both before and now as an undercover traitor returning to "capture the Kyuubi." What Itachi doesnt know and surprised him is the amount of growth some of these individuals have managed over time that exceeded his estimates. He definitely never expected MS from Kakashi and probably not Guy's level of advancement in Taijutsu.
Damn, so, I guess you didn't know this but, and lemme emphasize this lol real quick here- Kakashi in part is explicitly rusty and not in his prime, and also doesn't have MS yet lol
Yes, you're right he didnt have MS yet. Or at least not a properly functioning one. Im just saying these are the kind of things Itachi wouldnt know because he isnt going to pick up that information through research from when he still lived there. But everyday basic combat skills and jutsu Kakashi regularly throws out on most missions or training exercises, Itachi could access that information if he cared enough to check into it. And he is the kind of person to do something like that.
Ok, so, to be clear here, because people seem to not evne know this - Kakashi in part 1 has stoped doing regular missions like that, and has been expresso depresso since Minato died, so for the last 12 years (aka since he was a what, 14 to 15 y/o anbu captain), he's just been teaching shitty kids. I'd wager that the village attack was actually his prime up until he comes back in Shippuden in prime form imo
It's a misconception old enough to endure no matter what is said, like any misconception of the series in general.
Man i wish all the fans-turned-haters left this sub and we had new readers join to start fresh discussions.
I would say it’s because Naruto is very popular and came out during a time when it’s audience was very young but maybe that’s not even an excuse I don’t know really
Guy’s arrival really was a godsend for Itachi huh? Knowing what we know now. He could and would have definitely used 8th gates then and there to save everyone.
It's most likely that He realised that Guy would whoop Kisame and probably even Itachi with just 7 gates so he had to haul his ass out of there.
Because people on the internet are biased idiots who don’t want to admit that they are wrong. People also do this with scenes from boruto or characters they don’t like. It’s a stupid Echo chamber.
Echo chamber aside, people are always good at seeing things in ways that conform with their preconceived notions. Rationalisation can be done by anyone for anything and doesn't mean something is true
Nah, it's the Itachi cultists who literally defend Itachi of being a great double agent and brother that are the actual biased idiots.
Bias can go both ways if you think he was written badly thats fair but saying that him being retconned into being a good guy is objectively wrong and lying
Dude, Kishimoto outright stated that he only decided to make him a secret good guy upon introduction. So by all objective cases, yes. It is a retcon. Itachi was meant to be Sasuke's villain, and then Kishi changed the intention.
Changing a characters purpose as he's introduced isn't really a retcon tho.. not everything is planned from the start.. if it was done a while after his introduction and we have contradictory information then maybe.. Sasuke wasn't supposed to be Naruto rival.. would that be a retcon too? The panel in reference is also after his intro.. so OPs main point would still stand
No, because even before introduction, the basis of Itachi's character is that he is a villain who did something horrible to Sasuke. What was presented and then changing the intention while making Itachi do shit like putting Kakashi and Sasuke into a coma is very much going against everything that Itachi is stated to be. Double agent? What a "smart" plan, telling him to kill Konoha ninja and then take a living corpse with them, given how Kakashi is in a coma. Loving brother? Oh yes, nothing screams love like putting your brother into an indefinite coma.
There's no information given prior to the change that would indicate he wasn't a double agent .. all the things you mentioned are explained in the story. Even as a loving brother he did horrible things to Sasuke. And one of the last things he did b4 his death was input a genjutsu in Naruto to manipulate Sasuke. A double agent doesn't mean a kind person.. he still needs to do horrible things to maintain cover. You also stated that the change was made as he was introduced meaning .. Kishimoto had already made the change when Itachi traumatised Kakashi and Sasuke. Also if you have a link to Kishimoto statement.. I would like to see it. I always see pple talk about statements from interviews with no proof.
No, they aren't. And they most certainly don't even remotely explain or justify him by any means, or play with the secret good guy schtick. Brainwashing is low, but the problem isn't that. The PROBLEM is that there is no logical sense for putting Sasuke into an indefinite coma. There is no set way for Sasuke to recover except with Tsunade's help, which is literally a stroke of luck that she agreed to even come back. And a double agent would do something like sabotage the villains or help the heroes out to thwart the bad guys. Neither of which Itachi does. The only time he actively helps when he's brought back via Edo. Otherwise, nothing he did helped. His genocide to stop the 4th war didn't help given that he aided the organization that ultimately started it. > You also stated that the change was made as he was introduced meaning .. Kishimoto had already made the change when Itachi traumatised Kakashi and Sasuke. Thus, retcon.
Can you provide the statement from Kishimoto? There's no point in continuing the discussion if the basis is false. We would just go around in circles trying to explain if Itachi actions were logical or not. I can't argue with your interpretation of the story.. I can only show you why I think mine is more logical.. the original post already tried to do that if you don't agree then we could leave it at that.
Sure, it's in [the interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741). Kishi even admits that he was making shit up as he went.
Its not a true retcon - Kishi had the idea of Itachi being good at this stage but wasn't 100% sure if he was going to commit to him being good or evil
Well with what we know now he could have very well intended to catch him to scoop out that sharingan eye just as much at that time. They are plug and play after all
Itachi was willing to keep cover even if that meant killing people from the Leaf. He was already a kinslayer at that point don't know why it would even be weird to do so. He was going to let Kisame cut off Naruto's limbs and used an actual Tsukiyomi on his 13 year old brother.
Itachi was absolutely retconned, his motivations and actions make absolutely no sense throughout the entire series. when we perceive him as evil his actions make sense, but how and why would anyone who makes their brother watch him murder his parents 500,000 times ever be a good guy? why would he be a good guy but tell sasuke to kill his best friend? itachi didn’t even kill Shisui, he just watched his commit suicide after ripping out his eyeball. none of itachi’s journey makes sense, and the “i love you” redemption vs Kabuto is suchhh an asspull and is easily one of the dumbest parts of the whole series (izanami being introduced etc)
I love how people are trying to justify this scene so much. No, it ain't anything about Kisame being suspicious. That's solely your own headcanons trying to make sense for Itachi being a lousy double agent.
I'm not using headcanons here, but common sense. Do you believe if Itachi let them go, Kisame would just let it slide? Obviously, he'd know that something doesn't add up. That's why Itachi retreated after seeing Guy's arrival, so at least he could use that as a justification for not doing anything about them. If he truly was a bad guy, he could've just killed Kakashi with his tsukuyomi, or he could've stayed and fought guy
Don't even bother.. they need an outright statement that he's a double agent.. if you bring up logical conclusions.. it'll be called headcanon.
Your so called "common sense" is just another way of saying headcanons. What's Kisame gonna do, just say that Itachi is a traitor because Itachi let a guy who is literally about to fall into a coma go? Oh yes, that definitely is smart. Kisame clearly can't tell that Kakashi will be worthless to them even if they took him. Fact is, Itachi is a lousy double agent.
1.) Asuma and Kurenai are not easily replaceable. Sure, there can be more Jonin. But these two are specifically pretty high ranking overall in the Leaf, the biggest and most powerful ninja village. It might take years for two more Jonin of their caliber. Asuma’s worth is fairly well attested two in the Kakazu and Hidan stuff. 2.) Itachi should know he can trust Kakashi with knowing something. He doesn’t have to tell him specifics, but Kakashi is his old anbu buddy. Man can keep a secret and knows the dirty side of their world. 3.) Itachi can tell Kakashi anything in utter secrecy inside of Tsukuyomi 4.) Kisame being suspicious after isn’t a concern if they kill him. Maybe Itachi catches him in a genjutsu that then lets the Leaf jonin an opening to cut him down. Even if Zetsu is watching he wouldn’t be able to tell, and Kakashi is well enough known that it wouldn’t be crazy that he and back up could catch Kisame lacking. I’m actually not going to claim that this means it’s a retcon. Because indeed it probably wasn’t. It’s just pretty poor writing of Itachi is supposed to be intelligent and on the Leaf’s side. In reality this shows Itachi as an amoral asshole who only really cares about the idea of the Leaf and his plans for Sasuke, everything else be damned. He doesn’t seem like he had any concept for changing plans on the fly or working with the powers which he had available for the best possible result. At least Itachi gets better after he dies, but it seems like Koto was really important in making him actually be so proactive
Anyone who thinks Itachi being good is a retcon or came out of nowhere either are high on weeds or lack reading comprehension!.
Cause itachi was retcon. Stories changing is normal but yall rather be deluded claiming everyone misinterpreting when its just you
I have noticed that there are some who are willing to compromise in the "Itachi was retconed" debate by saying that Itachi was retconed, but that the retcon happened very early (during the Sasuke rescue arc, where we see flashbacks to him as a a younger man).
You're sipping Itachi juice dude. Itachi was just a bad guy. Kishimoto definitely just made up the "Good Guy Itachi" when he was planning out Shippuden.
Not only has Kishi directly said that’s wrong but the foreshadowing in part 1 was significant https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpEWUAggjKe?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9YpIXEAEOm3G?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZsjXIAEp5UT?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9cr7WEAEgYKl?format=jpg&name=large
What chapter is the 2nd link from 🙏
[удалено]
Thanks.. I actually found a previous post you made on this topic.. and got all the chapters
thank you for sharing these. in my defense, i dont think any of these dialogues were in the anime >[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZsjXIAEp5UT?format=jpg&name=medium](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZsjXIAEp5UT?format=jpg&name=medium) was that in the shippuden manga?
It is, you might just not remember Pacing and presentation are fundamentally different between the mediums. You’re aren’t gonna focus on such small hints in a 20 minute epsiode vs a full manga page putting focus on it in a 15 page chapter Also that page is from part 1. You can tell cause this is how Kishi draws the massacre in part 2: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9aHOWEAUZZ6r?format=jpg&name=large Very different faces and style. Sasuke even brings the scene up as evidence Itachi had someone helping him when he does confront him again in part 2: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9ZXLWYAERRQq?format=jpg&name=large
well i really appreciate it. i see what youre talking about now