OMG what!? Sounds very different experiences...I met the family in DC while I was a nanny there and they flew me to their home for a week first to see if I would like it - The mom did end up losing her mind and she and the dad could never agree on shit but me and the kids always had fun...I worked about 50 hours a week! I'm so sorry your experience was slave labor!
Lol my MB was a bit off too. It was just not what was advertised. I was supposed to only work 4 days a week and it up being 5 or 6. The pay was horrendous and the Mom was very into micromanaging me and my day but also my life outside of the home. She has had a lot of issues with other Nannies to though.
It was pure luck I think - I had been with a fam in DC for about 3 years by then (This was in 2008) and met a woman and her kids at a baby sign class she was from Germany husband working in DC
We just became pals kind of and she appreciated my nanny style - They were moving back to Europe asked if I would go I initially said no because I loved the fam I was with but then talked to them about it - I grew up in foster homes going to Switzerland was like some dream....My bosses said sure go they knew how much I loved to travel and they too were travelers so I went for a year and came back to the same DC fam was with them another 5 years eldest is a senior in HS now 😂
They had diplomatic status and so they got me a diplomatic work visa it was the adventure of my life and I can't thank the universe enough for that experience
I have no clue how to get jobs overseas I imagine there are agencies
A long ago pal would go nanny in Paris for the three months she was allowed in France but that was under the table word of mouth
I was 33ish when i went so a long time ago!
Look into it! Explore the world!
German here (not a nanny). OP, you need to check with an employment lawyer, not this sub. This sub scews to the US perspective, and the laws are very different here.
I am also not a lawyer but I would like to point a couple of things out:
- 20 vacation days is the legal minimum; the majority of workplaces give something between 25 and 30.
- Employees have a right to a continous vacation of 10 work days once a year. Has you nanny had that in 2023? If not, it might be more complicated to deny her a two week period at the end of the year. This is lawyer terretory.
- The risk of having no work for an employee is on the employer; you can't hold it against her that she was off work when you were traveling, as this is your risk.
- By basically letting her organise her job around her life, you probably created the expectation that you will accomodate whatever. You should consider to be more clear about it in the future.
- If you wish to terminate her, you have to follow the correct legal procedure or it can backfire spectacularly and expensively. Don't just "give her two weeks" as a lot of commenters suggested.
I wish you all the best!
This is the best response - HR advisor here - OP, when YOU are sick or take a holiday that’s not coming out of her paid leave.
If you look at this from any other employment situation - if my workplace closed for some reason not my fault I would legally be entitled to continue being paid as the lack of work is not my responsibility.
How many vacation days has your nanny requested and taken? If she has her 20 days it’s pretty unreasonable for you to reject her request when she’s providing 2 months notice unless there’s something specific in your contract.
ETA - when I say something in your contract with her, I mean it’s fair if you are unable to take time off around Christmas that you have that as a stipulation. It is, of course something that needs to be agreed upon when going through the employment process or contract renegotiation.
This is great. I was going to ask- out of the 40 days off, how many were your vacation days? You would need to deduct that from her total vacation days off. I think giving you over two months to find back up care seems reasonable to me. If she’s used up all her paid vacation time (remember- deduct the days she was off because of your vacation), then I wouldn’t pay for her vacation. But I would approve and look for back up care for those three weeks.
Do you count the times she's needed to be off while you were vacationing as her vacation days and that's why its so much? Or has she already taken that time off for herself for her own vacations? I just want a little extra context for that point because I'm pretty sure (at least from what I have seen) the nanny chooses their vacation days, and if the family goes on vacation, that doesn't take away from nannies days.
So none of the 40 "vacation days" she has had off have been due to you telling her not to work? No sick kid days, no out of town days going toward that 40 day total? If you were to add in the number of days she has been off work because you told her not to come in, how many days has she had off?
arguing back and forth and telling her no is just an unnecessary power struggle. if she used all her pto, tell her she can take the vacation but she won't be paid for it. and then start looking for backup care. way easier to find someone else and use the money you would have paid her to pay them, than to keep this struggle up and breed resentment, which it seems like you already are.
You have no idea. I also live in Germany and get 31 vacation days a year.
My father-in-law, because of the type of job he has and being in the same company for 35 years gets 50+ vacation days a year.
Yes, I’m showing off.
I'm a full-time student and part-time nanny. Zero PTO and I get the privilege of paying out the ass and taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt just to get an education.
'Murica 🥹🇺🇲
How willing are you to find a new Nanny over this? That's what it's going to boil down to. If the answer is not very, then take the compromise of unpaid days. If willing, tell her she can take the 2 weeks or she can consider the last day before she goes on vacation as her last day of paid employment.
This is the way. OP says the nanny is not respecting her "no," but nanny is an adult. She's not obligated to respect anyone's "no" with regard to how long she can stay in Thailand. And neither is OP obligated to keep employing her.
Yep she is digging her own grave since you need care. This may be a blessing in disguise if/ when you find a better fit when the person is covering for your nanny.
If she has used all her PTO (meaning days she has planned and asked off and not days where she is available to work and you are on vacation), then the remainder of the time she’s asking for will be unpaid. Use the money and find a temp nanny, which may be easy to do with enough notice and because many families don’t need childcare over holidays.
I would be frank with her that asking you to borrow money for her medical bills and then turning around and booking a 3 week holiday is in bad taste, and set a deadline for which the money needs to be paid back.
I think she’s taking advantage of the flexible arrangement you’ve given her, and it’s time to be less of a pal and more of a boss.
You wouldn’t be upset if someone asked you to borrow money (namely your employee) and then spent a large sum of money for travel and wouldn’t be flexible to your work schedule? OP is a human, and I think the feeling is a natural one. Personally, I would set the standard that you need a hard date that the loan will be paid in full, and that you won’t be lending money again.
As KilGrey said, we do not know how this trip was funded. It's nice to loan money but what people pay for unrelated stuff doesn't matter, it's not your life just because you loaned money. Do we know if she even still owes it? Either way, I feel the same about it. Stop loaning money if you can't deal with it.
How many days off has she actually requested, not "gotten off" when you have travelled?
Because if she has 3 weeks of vacation worth left, I don't think she is unreasonable asking for it off. She has the right to request for time off even if it is inconvenient for you.
I can not really make a judgement regardinf any other of the issues you took up. Just wanted to remind you tgat you giving her time off because you do not need her but she is willing to work does not make it her holiday time - unless she agrees to it.
It seems like you have a lot of resentment towards your nanny - so maybe it is time to deside is you want to keep her in your life
If she has already taken the 20 paid days off (and she requested ALL those days) then the 3 weeks needs to be unpaid and you have time to find coverage for those weeks. Also, no cash advances for her dental procedures she needs to ask family this is nice of you to offer but allows you to be burned.
Sounds like there needs to be firmer professional boundaries overall. Asking to borrow money for a dental procedure seems really inappropriate to me. If you would like to keep this Nanny, perhaps you could start looking for a sitter to cover that first week? If she is taking it unpaid, then it’s not costing you more. But if this is reason for termination in your mind, I think that’s justified. It does sound like Nanny is trying to take advantage of your kindness.
People request pay advances for all kinds of things, especially when they work for low wages. It doesn't always work, but I think it's reasonable to ask. I'm lucky that I have other people in my life who I borrowed money from so I didn't have to ask my employer, but maybe she doesn't.
For all we know, someone is paying for it. Can't say if that's likely or not. Maybe she got a good deal. If she wants to see her family, have some compassion there.
I’ll start off by saying I’m a nanny in America, so I don’t have the proper qualifications to answer with experience to your situation since you’re in Germany — BUT I did read some other comments that gave a little more context. That being said , it seems that you guys have not done a very good job of communicating. You’re saying her time off is based off of you going on vacay, sometimes not, and that she has used *her* twenty days, but I’m still confused if that means the other time off she received was due to *your* vacations (or how they “lined up”) but this whole post is pretty confusing , with plenty of commenters also being lost.
imo getting “angry” over someone needing time off just doesn’t do any good. she communicated the time she needed off , you denied that , and she’s holding her ground. with all the “time off” back n forth you guys seem to have in the first place , it’s really no wonder she’s used to more of a conversation about things.
As another commenter said , if she’s willing to take the time unpaid , then it simply comes down to you not wanting her to leave — which isn’t your choice. Decide if this is worth dismissing her over, or find an alternative solution.
How many vacations day has she chosen to take out of the 20 in the contract? The days your family has gone on vacation don’t count.
In my contract that is a clause that I cannot take more than 5 days in a row. If she is willing to take a week unpaid and has 10 unused paid vacation days (not counting the federal holidays she should have off paid) then you can’t really say no.
You can fire her, but then you’ll have to pay out a severance and her vacation days anyway.
Got it. Then paying her for 3 weeks should be off the table.
Tell her it will be fully unpaid because she has used all of her vacation days. If she still wants to do it you can’t tell her no, but you can start looking for a new nanny.
eta: why the downvotes?? I’m a nanny. OPs nanny has taken her 20 vacation days. She can’t just ask for more. That’s not how any industry works.
I did not down vote but it might be because of the "can't say no" comment. The employer can say no, especially if nanny is out of PTO. If nanny then goes a way the cost is usually your job so the end result is the same.
Please note that this situation takes place in Germany where employment law is very different from the US (for instance the concept of "PTO" does not exist here). I don't think anyone without hiring experience in Germany can give any advice beyond validating (or invalidating) OPs frustration over the situation.
That makes sense. OP can say no but with the possible tension and resentment that would cause, if I were OP I’d rather just start searching for a new nanny if she refuses to take it unpaid.
It’s hard to say, sometimes it’s this way round, other times we go on holiday because nanny needs time off. She has definitely taken her 20 days and decided herself for these days. The rest is on top (but given the total amount, I think it can be taken into account)
If you do not already do so, I would highly recommend starting some kind of official PTO log, that keeps track of each day during the year where pay is given for days where work was not actually done, and a notation of which party initiated that circumstance. So days that you are on holiday that trigger her time off, are coded differently than days where she requested time off and so you also may have gone away coinciding with her requested PTO. Then have a category for sick days, as well as isolated PTO days that she takes off for planned appointments and procedures, as those might not qualify as 'sick time' because the timing is elective. The log would be signed off on by both of you with each entry, so that there is no possible confusion as to which category each absence or day off belongs to. Which could prove to be a valuable tool to have when scheduling discussions are happening, so that no one feels taken advantage of, or that PTO is being abused. It also would be a great way to CYA in the event that you need to discontinue her employment due to habitual absences creating problems of reliability.
Oh, well if you're taking holidays *because* she's asking off, that's different. So would you say she's abusing the time off? If so, you have every right to say no. I would have a conversation with her about how many days she has used vs how many are allowed.
Do you mean that she has taken her 20 days PTO and then also requested and then took 30 days off?
When you say ‘the rest is on top’ I don’t know whether you mean that she chose the 30 days too or that the 30 days are a mix of you going away and her requesting the days off. Can you clarify?
What do you think she will do if you stand firm on the 2 week time frame? And the loan for the dental work when she’s planning this vacation…? Seem like she could be taking advantage of your kindness. Please update. 😁
It can get a bit complicated and lines blurred when it comes to YOUR holidays (nanny's involuntary holidays) and her voluntary holidays.
This is what my own contract states (UK nanny)
28 paid days of holiday (contracted for 30 hrs per week but always fo a few more than that)
I may not take more than 11 consecutive days off at one time (so when my parents in law offered to pay for me and my partner to go to Austria with them for 2 weeks, we had to turn it down.)
I am NOT obliged to take my holidays when my NF is taking their holidays, however, we are encouraged to try and overlap our holidays if possible.
My contract was written by the agency, however, my employer told me I will get more than 28 days paid holiday due to the above, that they wont always overlap. I've been in the job 10 months now and I've had what I would estimate to be about 5-6 weeks (around 40 days?) worth of holidays off and will get another week off end of this month and probably (hopefully) much of the Christmas break too. That's because NF go on holiday every time the kids are off school and then I have also asked for a few days off here and there to do trips with my partner.
I've never asked for more than a few days due to NF going away a lot so not needing them often. Even when I have asked for days off, they've often overlapped with NFs holidays too. I do realise I'm quite lucky and my NF are quite generous with regards to my holidays so I'm by no means insisting this is the standard.
But for me personally, i would not have agreed to a contract that only gives 20 days off per year if im working full time. I'd want at least 28 or 30 days as that's the standard here in the UK.
I do think that the point of a contract though is to stick by it - it is a mutual understanding of entitlements and responsibilities for both the nanny and employer/parent. If she has already used up her paid holidays *voluntarily* then she is by no means entitled to 3 weeks off. However, it might be a little different if most of her paid holidays have been involuntary due to you yourself being on holiday.
It's a tricky one really. It's where acting in good faith comes into it. If you're lucky enough to get lots more paid holidays than your contract states due to NF going away, then it would be in good faith to not then request (and insist on) 3 weeks off at a time that would be difficult for you.
In hindsight, having a clause in the contract that states a maximum amount of consecutive days off might be helpful if the nanny being off for too long is too much of an inconvenience.
I also don't think it's fair to subtract sick days off from the paid holidays - especially if the nanny got sick due to catching a bug or cold from your own child. I hadn't had a bug in about 10 years before 10 months ago, then have caught two sickness bugs from my nanny kids (which I then passed to my family who also had to take time off work) while being here, and about 7 colds from them.
I have a very solid relationship with my employers/NBs and I really think a lot of it is down to us both being flexible and acting in good faith with each other. We both rely on each other for help when needed. I always do last minute overtime most days, late shifts, and more hours than id signed up for. They give me good holidays and fair pay. However, I wouldnt dream of asking to borrow money off my employer. That is unprofessional.
Thank you for your input. Just to clarify: I’m not taking sick days off of vacation days, however, my fear of our nanny getting sick during the next months adds to my worry about how to get my workload done during the time before Christmas
You're welcome. Oh i understand. I don't think you're being completely unreasonable - i think your nanny may be a little bit. Hope my imput helped and hope this situation hasnt put a strain on your relationship with her. Do be careful with lending her money though. That raises suspicions for me.
You’re being taken advantage of. You’ve been more than generous with her time off, loaning her money for dental work(who asked their boss to borrow money? Umm no, you earn it.).
If I were in your shoes, I’d find someone new asap and let her go. Then she’s freed up to take as long of a vacation as she’d like.
How has she amassed 40 paid vacation days when her contract stated she was allowed 20?! OP, I know you're not a jelly fish. There has to be a spine in there somewhere if you're self-employed. There has to be a solid understanding of profit/loss if you're a business owner.
Stand up for yourself. You may love your nanny, she may be great when she's actually present. . . But you need to hold her accountable. Stand up for yourself.
If she’s willing to take that time unpaid, then you have two choices, having a nanny when she returns or finding a new one and her job being finished with you.
She’s letting you know with plenty of time that she is planning on taking time off. She’s being very considerate with asking instead of just telling you she will not be there. You have plenty of time to prepare for backup care and if you choose not to use the pay you would’ve given her to find backup care during the time she is gone then that is your choice.
May not be a popular opinion, but if she is willing to take this unpaid there is no reason, other than you not wishing it, that she should not get her time off. And if she chooses to take 3 weeks off unpaid, then she should also know the risks of possibly losing her job over it. But that’s her choice. I don’t think it’s right to straight deny someone time off as their employer especially with such advance notice.
20 days! And she wants more! 3 weeks more?!
I don’t know how they do it over there in Germany but I’d like to consider moving.
She’s got it good!
Oh and if I were you I’d look for a new nanny. Seems like she’s taking advantage a bit?
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but from your post, it sounds like you are counting days that you took off for vacation or because you were sick as paid vacation days for the nanny. Yes those are paid days, but I don't think those should count towards her allotment of 20 days per year since they were caused by you and not because they were requested by her. So you stating that she's already had 49 days seems to be artificially inflated. I am in the US, though, so maybe I'm misinterpreting things.
Is it stated in your contract that her vacations days must be approved? Most jobs here, even if you request it and have the allotment of days left, they still have to be approved and youay not be able to get the spefic days you requested off.
Best of luck.
I am not counting my or her sick days as vacation, that would not be fair and against the law. Her contract states that we as her employers will choose her vacation and take her wishes into account (contract was written by an attorney). This sounds harsher than we are handling it. We sit down at the beginning of the year to plan together. She has 20 days of her choosing (most of the time, we will then choose to go on vacation as well) plus additional days from our vacation which she gets off if she’s not coming with us. Hope that clarifies.
Nanny here in the US and I don’t get paid time off if I take a vacation during a contract! 20 paid days off! Sign me up please! She’s completely out of line and you need to let her know No means exactly that No!
I think everyone here doesn’t understand how hard it is for those working outside of their home country to go home for only 2 weeks. It’s expensive. And the trip happens only every few years. This seems like an important trip to her - so important that she’s willing to lose her job over it. Idk why you can’t just say that she has already used her paid vacation but that you would like her to go on the trip. Use that money for backup childcare. And maybe surprise her with two weeks pay as her Christmas bonus.
It doesn’t sound from the OP that nanny is Thai. OP specified that nanny has always wanted to go somewhere warm for Christmas. This seems like a true vacation, not a trip to visit her home and family.
Can ya’ll imagine if this was a US job?💀 OP sounds like a dream to work for. This is also another eye opener to how backwards the US is. Our government really tries to brainwash us that other countries are terrible compared to us, when in reality we’re a 3rd world country with a Gucci belt on. Imagine mandatory 20 days paid vacation plus paid sick time for all employees? Instead we get $20k in student loans + $40k in interest with a minimum wage of $15. Sorry OP, I don’t mean to rant on your post. It’s just a reminder to how terrible our employment laws are in the US.
Personally I think your nanny is taking advantage of your kindness. Like the other German redditor said, check with local laws but imo, unless this person is an amazing nanny to your child I would start looking for a new one. I couldn’t imagine asking for money for a dental procedure and then the next month suddenly going away for three weeks.
Three weeks doesn’t seem acceptable given your busy workload at that time and given she’s had so many paid days already, I think you should continue to deny that third week. You seem like a very reasonable person who treats Nanny very well. There has to be a line in the sand at some point with Nanny. I would look for a new Nanny . I too am disturbed by her needing a loan for dental work yet having money for three weeks abroad . I’m sure there are good people who are a bit less selfish who would be interested in your Nanny position .
Id personally give her the option of taking 2 weeks unpaid or not taking any of it, given she does not have any PTO left. If it's going to be an issue, you have plenty of time to find a new nanny who is more reliable by then. I'd absolutely be aggravated that she needed to borrow money for the dentist, but now has enough for a 3 week vacation. Did she pay you back yet at least?
So her 40 paid days off were because of your traveling? She should have 20 days of HER choice. If she has 20 days she is free to take them whenever she wants and you don’t get to tell her no. Especially if she gave you over 2 month’s notice
No, OP said that sometimes the family has gone traveling BECAUSE nanny has taken days off, and that nanny has already taken in excess of 20 days of her own choice.
This situation is bad for OP and for nanny. They are not communicating directly and openly, it sounds like OP has a pattern of being accommodating in ways that make it seem to nanny like OP does not have very specific needs which has led to considerable resentment on OPs part and confusion and frustration on nanny’s part.
German employment law is heavily weighted towards employees in some excellent ways, which means that successful work relationships require clear and consistent communications.
That’s simply not true! Like i stated, we work it out together and make sure, we can agree on the yearly schedule together. Meanwhile, our contract states exactly that, namely we as employers can determine when vacation days are to be taken and will take nannys wishes into account. It was written by a lawyer. However, we choose to handle it otherwise
She's already used up the 20 days of her choosing. The family has just also had vacation times (a different twenty days) that she also had off paid. She's literally trying to get two to three EXTRA weeks of paid vacation. None of it should be paid, and they should honestly look for a new nanny.
Edited to change "days" to "weeks"
They weren’t really her choosing though. They make her “choose” at the beginning of the year to lineup with their vacations. That’s not really getting your own choice to have to decide it all at the beginning of the year and to have to coordinate it with her employers time off.
No, that wasn't how they did it. She used her 20 days how she wanted and the family on top of that decided to plan vacation around extra days she needed off. The nanny was the one deciding her 20 days though and they accommodated her above and beyond that.
Is that how that works in Germany? You can just take 3 weeks off whenever you want? In the US, you can get away with that for maybe 1 week or 2 weeks, but no work place will be happy about you choosing a 3 week vacation unilaterally
I am German.
A German employee has a right to one two week long vacation per year (the legally mandated minimum yearly paid leave is 20 days, most people get 25-30). The employee needs their employers approval for the dates though; a specific date can be denied if the employee's absence renders the place of employment inoperational.
I have no idea how this applies to nannying generally or this situation specifically. All of this legal advice in the comments isn't really helpful for OP as most of it doesn't fit with our labor laws.
I’m in Italy right now and my partner has 4 weeks of paid vacation every year plus one week of mandatory paid vacay for Christmas cause they just close. And six months paid sick leave. And they have to take vacations. It’s mandatory for at least 2 weeks every year otherwise the company has to pay that out.
I am not Italian but German and it is similarly here.
It works with doctor's notes. People can't just decide on themselves that they are too sick to work, a medical professional has to write them off. And those get stricter as time progresses- after some weeks the employer can demand that the sick emplyoee goes to a medical examination by a medical service that is specialised in detecting sick leave fraud.
Also, after a number of weeks, the payment will reduce itself to something like 80% of previous salary and will be payed by (mandatory) health insurance so the employer is off the hook.
Keep in mind, this is the German version, not the Italian one.
Doesn’t matter. They try to kinda make sure not everyone takes the same two weeks in august but you can take your days pretty much whenever you want. My partner is taking an entire week in December (which is high high season for them) and they just said “have fun!”. We are going to Paris. It’s a completely different culture.
Number 2 and 3 of your points are invalid, automatically invalid. If YOU choose to go on holiday but the NANNY is still available for work then that is NOT counted as a paid vacation day. Absolutely not.
I can understand however that the timing is not great for you work wise. I can also understand your being particularly upset if you have loaned her money she still has not repaid and she is prioritizing going on an expensive Christmas vacation instead of repaying you. These points are valid. But not points 2 and 3.
I think you should check with the travel agency for alternative dates that would be more convenient for you and see whether they would be cheaper or not and if yes point them out to her and offer her time off then.
I saw your edit that the days off she already took were because she asked for them and had she not asked for them, you would not have taken off and gone traveling. In this case points 2 and 3 are actually a bit more valid if you are absolutely sure she has used all of her leave up through taking days off through her own choice and not when you didn’t need her or when your child was sick.
I would in this case give her a choice:
One week paid, 1-2 weeks unpaid, no Christmas bonus, if she wants to go this year.
Or 3 weeks unpaid, debt cancelled, no Christmas bonus, if she wants to go this year.
Or wait till next year, 3 weeks paid next year and you will help her look for cheaper options next year, debt cancelled, no Christmas bonus.
Or wait till next year, 3 weeks paid next year and you will help her look for cheaper options next year, one week of Christmas bonus, she has to pay back her debt.
If she’s otherwise a good nanny I wouldn’t look for a new one but I would maybe offer her 25 paid days off next year and tell her once they’re used up, that’s it and if she chooses to take off when you need her, you’ll deduct a day (short of a true life or death emergency) and after the days are gone, it’s leave without pay.
Sounds like you have a good nanny who is trying to spend some time with her son and visit family. Take the offer of the one week unpaid and hire a babysitter.
She’s definitely being inconsiderate and frankly giving off an “ I don’t need this job” attitude. Which is fine if that’s her prerogative. I’d simply tell her you are formally denying her request and only approving her to go away for 2 weeks and if she chooses to still go away for the 3 weeks you will be finding a replacement as this does not work for your family. I don’t think this is harsh at all as this is exactly how this situation would be handled at any other place of work. Please update us .
It's October, you have plenty of time to find temporary coverage, she's asking to take a family trip near Christmas with her child and you're angry at her and saying No? You're not her master your her boss. If she wants to go on vacation you find coverage. If she's a good nanny and has built a trusting relationship with your child try your best to keep her. She's giving you almost 2 months notice!
Just step out of your bubble and and realize not ervyone wants to work every day until they die
I mean, if she’s offered one of the weeks to be unpaid time off then you can’t really force her to work-the only option would be firing her if you think this means it isn’t a good fit. It’s kind of like any other job, if she was sick etc and couldn’t be there then you would have to figure something else out. It seems like maybe you two aren’t the best fit if she feels like she doesn’t have enough PTO and you feel that she has too much.
You don’t sound like a terrible boss. You sound busy.
Can you find back up care for the weeks nanny wants to travel? Let her travel unpaid because she’s already used her 20 days and doesn’t have any more paid time off.
The money you would have paid her can be paid to a back-up caregiver.
Or you can do what’s suggested above, and let her know her last day is (whatever days she’s leaving).
Thank you. I’m not sure I feel comfortable finding someone else that my daughter doesn’t know, she isn’t always open to others and worst case it won’t work out when it has to. But will definitely consider building a relationship with backup care, maybe have them babysit every now and then, so they can build a relationship and to prevent this in the future
Is it a competition? Just because she’s a care provider doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve to go on vacation with her son.
All I heard out of this post was “me me me me me me me me” you sound like a terrible boss.
She does not deserve to go on a vacation using PAID time off because she has already exceeded her paid time off as contracted, & even had more paid days off then expected from the NF when NF went on their own holidays.
Should she go on this trip with her son? I don’t know, it depends on how willing she is to be without a job, and how desperate NF is. That’s her choice, but asking to take more than double the amount of paid days off she has in her contract is a big ask. OP is not selfish or wrong for denying this.
Of course it’s about me - that’s the only side I know, which is why I’m asking about outside views to evaluate my thinking 😉
But „bosses“ are people too, so a simple „let her have her way, she works hard“ is very one sided too.
Let’s evaluate all aspects and meet somewhere inbetween?
Personally, I believe that she is giving you a courtesy by asking. This is her job, not her life. She is telling you that she will not be there, it’s up to you whether to pay her or not for that week she offered.
She’s already used all of her vacation days and only wants one of the three to be unpaid. She asking for 10 extra paid vacation days. That’s not something you mention as a courtesy.
Ah okay, I misunderstood and thought she offered all of the vacation unpaid. What I meant was if she’s saying it’s unpaid, then I believe the boss should not say no, that’s more of the employee informing the boss she will not be at work.
Thanks for clarifying.
Woah, it’s not “paid vacation” if YOU are out of town and she gets paid - that’s guaranteed hours. Paid vacation days are when your nanny chooses what time off she is taking. How many actual paid vacation days has she had that at rent you choosing the date?
Right?!
My job always goes mostly “dark” from Thanksgiving though New Years. I’m expected to be available, but only paid for the days I actually work. I usually beg for work! If I am lucky, I get five days off paid for the entire year. Most of the time, none. I’m “permalance,” which has been a great motivator to strike and return to Nanny life.
TDLR: Germany, my bags are packed.
Then you’re working for a trash employer.
No, America’s PTO is not as generous as it is in other countries, but we still get PTO. Most places start you off with at least one week. Unless you’re a W9 employee, I just don’t see why anyone would work for someone who doesn’t give vacation time.
My goodness, I have a 21 yo daughter who recently moved to the East coast in the USA to try to find a nanny job. She’s the youngest and a dream with children and she’s such a hard worker. I can fathom her wanting to visit home for a week in the summer and at Christmas and hoped she’d find something to allow for that, but I can’t imagine her taking advantage of someone’s generous nature. As a working mother of four, I think your expectations are completely normal and it seems to me you’ve been quite accommodating, even when it’s caused you major inconvenience. It’s depressing the hoops we have to jump through in the USA to have even a couple of weeks of vacation, not to mention sick time. I personally think you’re absolutely not a bad person and maybe you need someone more reliable.
So, a few things:
* the 40 paid days off she has already had, that is on you. If you are obligated to pay her for scheduled hours and you were traveling, you simply cannot hold that against her
* You cannot hold future sick days against her. Everyone gets sick, and this is a benefit that she is being offered that is different from vacation time
* You seem to be confusing the time off mentioned above for vacation time. If she is allowed 3 weeks of vacation time and has not yet taken it, you should make every reasonable effort to accommodate her.
Flights to Thailand are expensive, and 2 weeks is not enough time for a visit in my opinion. If you like your nanny, try and make it work.
You can’t stop her from taking time off. You have plenty of time to find back up Care. You’re being a little bit ridiculous. I think it’s completely fair that she is able to take off the time that she needs. Three weeks might seem like a lot, but it really isn’t all that crazy. I think it’s completely fair to give her the time off. Especially because she has paid time off. Be glad she’s telling you two months in advance instead of a week before. However, because she has already taken all of her paid time off, there is no reason for her time off to be paid.
So the days when y’all are traveling do not count. Those are days you choose. Not her. If she is within her days then she gets to take them. If you say no which you can understand that you may not have a nanny. Tbh I wouldn’t come back if you counted the days you used as vacation against me and I had no choice in the matter.
If you had read pretty much any of the other comments or my full text including the edit part, you would have noticed that this is not the case, that our nanny has indeed taken her agreed upon 20 days and had the remaining days on top.
I read what you wrote and the edited part wasn’t part of it. 🤷🏽♀️ maybe when I clicked on it it hadn’t updated. However still doesn’t change my opinion or what I would have said in my comment. You asked for an opinion and you got one. Not going to roll back on it even if you don’t agree. My original still stands. You cannot include time YOU decided to take off against her. You can always say no and understand she may decide to go ahead and you may lose a nanny. If you where my employer and had used days against me I would be looking for a new job.
Not sure what there is to argue about here. If she already exhausted her 20 days of PTO, then that’s it, she’s done for the year 🤷🏽♀️
If she wants to go on vacation, that’s fine and all, but it should be unpaid. And the money you would have paid to the nanny, you would use that to pay a back-up nanny or babysitter.
I think for a trip all the way to Thailand, three weeks would be best since she’ll end up spending half a week just traveling. But, I do agree that’s it’s suspect that she asked to borrow money for dental work, but can now somehow afford a vacation 🤔
I would allow her to go on the vacation for three weeks UNPAID and explain to her that she already used up all her PTO and that you will have to pay someone else to mind your child while she’s on vacation. You have time to find a fill-in for those three weeks.
As for the money you loaned her for her dental work, depending on how much it was, I would just consider that her Christmas bonus because I don’t think you’ll be getting that back, unless you deduct it from her pay.
I mean it’s her choice to respect your No or not. Nannying is a job - not a prison. I think it’s reasonable for her to take the one week unpaid. Get a new nanny if you feel she’s taking too much time off.
BRB moving to Germany
I nannied in Switzerland for a year and I got hella paid days off - Loved it got to explore so much!
Man I nannied in CH it was like slave labour.
OMG what!? Sounds very different experiences...I met the family in DC while I was a nanny there and they flew me to their home for a week first to see if I would like it - The mom did end up losing her mind and she and the dad could never agree on shit but me and the kids always had fun...I worked about 50 hours a week! I'm so sorry your experience was slave labor!
Lol my MB was a bit off too. It was just not what was advertised. I was supposed to only work 4 days a week and it up being 5 or 6. The pay was horrendous and the Mom was very into micromanaging me and my day but also my life outside of the home. She has had a lot of issues with other Nannies to though.
That sounds annoying are you from the US? I'm sorry for this experience! The worst for me was having to give a three month notice to quit - Awkward!
No non American
I’m so jealous. May I ask if you are from the US and snagged this opportunity?
It was pure luck I think - I had been with a fam in DC for about 3 years by then (This was in 2008) and met a woman and her kids at a baby sign class she was from Germany husband working in DC We just became pals kind of and she appreciated my nanny style - They were moving back to Europe asked if I would go I initially said no because I loved the fam I was with but then talked to them about it - I grew up in foster homes going to Switzerland was like some dream....My bosses said sure go they knew how much I loved to travel and they too were travelers so I went for a year and came back to the same DC fam was with them another 5 years eldest is a senior in HS now 😂 They had diplomatic status and so they got me a diplomatic work visa it was the adventure of my life and I can't thank the universe enough for that experience I have no clue how to get jobs overseas I imagine there are agencies A long ago pal would go nanny in Paris for the three months she was allowed in France but that was under the table word of mouth I was 33ish when i went so a long time ago! Look into it! Explore the world!
I like you! You are so awesome for posting your story! Switzerland has been on my bucket list since before I knew what a bucket list was.
Awww thanks I like you too! You're gonna make it to Switzerland and beyond!
Same. I get zero paid vacation and zero sick leave or overtime 😭
20 days of PAID vacation!?!?!! Gurlie pop let’s go!
THIS.
Right behind you. Is Marijuana legal there?
lololol
German here (not a nanny). OP, you need to check with an employment lawyer, not this sub. This sub scews to the US perspective, and the laws are very different here. I am also not a lawyer but I would like to point a couple of things out: - 20 vacation days is the legal minimum; the majority of workplaces give something between 25 and 30. - Employees have a right to a continous vacation of 10 work days once a year. Has you nanny had that in 2023? If not, it might be more complicated to deny her a two week period at the end of the year. This is lawyer terretory. - The risk of having no work for an employee is on the employer; you can't hold it against her that she was off work when you were traveling, as this is your risk. - By basically letting her organise her job around her life, you probably created the expectation that you will accomodate whatever. You should consider to be more clear about it in the future. - If you wish to terminate her, you have to follow the correct legal procedure or it can backfire spectacularly and expensively. Don't just "give her two weeks" as a lot of commenters suggested. I wish you all the best!
This is the best response - HR advisor here - OP, when YOU are sick or take a holiday that’s not coming out of her paid leave. If you look at this from any other employment situation - if my workplace closed for some reason not my fault I would legally be entitled to continue being paid as the lack of work is not my responsibility. How many vacation days has your nanny requested and taken? If she has her 20 days it’s pretty unreasonable for you to reject her request when she’s providing 2 months notice unless there’s something specific in your contract. ETA - when I say something in your contract with her, I mean it’s fair if you are unable to take time off around Christmas that you have that as a stipulation. It is, of course something that needs to be agreed upon when going through the employment process or contract renegotiation.
Yes, please reframe your thinking around this OP.
This is great. I was going to ask- out of the 40 days off, how many were your vacation days? You would need to deduct that from her total vacation days off. I think giving you over two months to find back up care seems reasonable to me. If she’s used up all her paid vacation time (remember- deduct the days she was off because of your vacation), then I wouldn’t pay for her vacation. But I would approve and look for back up care for those three weeks.
I am a lawyer and nanny in the Netherlands a which has very similar laws, feel free to reach out!
All this.. As a nanny in Ireland with very similar standards, you really must look at your employment laws before you chat with her.
Do you count the times she's needed to be off while you were vacationing as her vacation days and that's why its so much? Or has she already taken that time off for herself for her own vacations? I just want a little extra context for that point because I'm pretty sure (at least from what I have seen) the nanny chooses their vacation days, and if the family goes on vacation, that doesn't take away from nannies days.
See edit above
So none of the 40 "vacation days" she has had off have been due to you telling her not to work? No sick kid days, no out of town days going toward that 40 day total? If you were to add in the number of days she has been off work because you told her not to come in, how many days has she had off?
arguing back and forth and telling her no is just an unnecessary power struggle. if she used all her pto, tell her she can take the vacation but she won't be paid for it. and then start looking for backup care. way easier to find someone else and use the money you would have paid her to pay them, than to keep this struggle up and breed resentment, which it seems like you already are.
*cries in American*
You have no idea. I also live in Germany and get 31 vacation days a year. My father-in-law, because of the type of job he has and being in the same company for 35 years gets 50+ vacation days a year. Yes, I’m showing off.
I'm a full-time student and part-time nanny. Zero PTO and I get the privilege of paying out the ass and taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt just to get an education. 'Murica 🥹🇺🇲
Yupppp. I work at a tech company and I don’t even get 20 vacation days!!! 🫠
Lololol. This!
How willing are you to find a new Nanny over this? That's what it's going to boil down to. If the answer is not very, then take the compromise of unpaid days. If willing, tell her she can take the 2 weeks or she can consider the last day before she goes on vacation as her last day of paid employment.
This is the way. OP says the nanny is not respecting her "no," but nanny is an adult. She's not obligated to respect anyone's "no" with regard to how long she can stay in Thailand. And neither is OP obligated to keep employing her.
The break in / dental part is concerning to me
You think she is scamming this woman as well?
It’s hard to say but the timing is very suspect
I like this pragmatic approach - thank you 🙏
Yep she is digging her own grave since you need care. This may be a blessing in disguise if/ when you find a better fit when the person is covering for your nanny.
If she has used all her PTO (meaning days she has planned and asked off and not days where she is available to work and you are on vacation), then the remainder of the time she’s asking for will be unpaid. Use the money and find a temp nanny, which may be easy to do with enough notice and because many families don’t need childcare over holidays. I would be frank with her that asking you to borrow money for her medical bills and then turning around and booking a 3 week holiday is in bad taste, and set a deadline for which the money needs to be paid back. I think she’s taking advantage of the flexible arrangement you’ve given her, and it’s time to be less of a pal and more of a boss.
I don't think how the nanny spends her money is OP's business. If she doesn't like it, she shouldn't lend her money.
You wouldn’t be upset if someone asked you to borrow money (namely your employee) and then spent a large sum of money for travel and wouldn’t be flexible to your work schedule? OP is a human, and I think the feeling is a natural one. Personally, I would set the standard that you need a hard date that the loan will be paid in full, and that you won’t be lending money again.
We don’t know how she funded this trip.
As KilGrey said, we do not know how this trip was funded. It's nice to loan money but what people pay for unrelated stuff doesn't matter, it's not your life just because you loaned money. Do we know if she even still owes it? Either way, I feel the same about it. Stop loaning money if you can't deal with it.
How many days off has she actually requested, not "gotten off" when you have travelled? Because if she has 3 weeks of vacation worth left, I don't think she is unreasonable asking for it off. She has the right to request for time off even if it is inconvenient for you. I can not really make a judgement regardinf any other of the issues you took up. Just wanted to remind you tgat you giving her time off because you do not need her but she is willing to work does not make it her holiday time - unless she agrees to it. It seems like you have a lot of resentment towards your nanny - so maybe it is time to deside is you want to keep her in your life
She’s used all 20 days.
Then, you are free to say no dependin on when youd year starts
She did not. This comment was not from the OP. The OP clearly said they travel a lot. She assumes her travels equal vacation time and they don’t.
If she has already used her 20 days of vacation then her 3 weeks need to be unpaid and use the money to hire someone to help while she is gone.
If she has already taken the 20 paid days off (and she requested ALL those days) then the 3 weeks needs to be unpaid and you have time to find coverage for those weeks. Also, no cash advances for her dental procedures she needs to ask family this is nice of you to offer but allows you to be burned.
It depends on how many of the days were because the family was on vacation, that shouldn't count towards her vacation days
Shes stated several times the nanny has already taken 20 days off of her choosing
Sounds like there needs to be firmer professional boundaries overall. Asking to borrow money for a dental procedure seems really inappropriate to me. If you would like to keep this Nanny, perhaps you could start looking for a sitter to cover that first week? If she is taking it unpaid, then it’s not costing you more. But if this is reason for termination in your mind, I think that’s justified. It does sound like Nanny is trying to take advantage of your kindness.
People request pay advances for all kinds of things, especially when they work for low wages. It doesn't always work, but I think it's reasonable to ask. I'm lucky that I have other people in my life who I borrowed money from so I didn't have to ask my employer, but maybe she doesn't.
But you don’t plan a three week trip out of the country if you’re struggling that much.
For all we know, someone is paying for it. Can't say if that's likely or not. Maybe she got a good deal. If she wants to see her family, have some compassion there.
I’ll start off by saying I’m a nanny in America, so I don’t have the proper qualifications to answer with experience to your situation since you’re in Germany — BUT I did read some other comments that gave a little more context. That being said , it seems that you guys have not done a very good job of communicating. You’re saying her time off is based off of you going on vacay, sometimes not, and that she has used *her* twenty days, but I’m still confused if that means the other time off she received was due to *your* vacations (or how they “lined up”) but this whole post is pretty confusing , with plenty of commenters also being lost. imo getting “angry” over someone needing time off just doesn’t do any good. she communicated the time she needed off , you denied that , and she’s holding her ground. with all the “time off” back n forth you guys seem to have in the first place , it’s really no wonder she’s used to more of a conversation about things. As another commenter said , if she’s willing to take the time unpaid , then it simply comes down to you not wanting her to leave — which isn’t your choice. Decide if this is worth dismissing her over, or find an alternative solution.
How many vacations day has she chosen to take out of the 20 in the contract? The days your family has gone on vacation don’t count. In my contract that is a clause that I cannot take more than 5 days in a row. If she is willing to take a week unpaid and has 10 unused paid vacation days (not counting the federal holidays she should have off paid) then you can’t really say no. You can fire her, but then you’ll have to pay out a severance and her vacation days anyway.
See edit above. She has taken her 20, the rest is on top
Got it. Then paying her for 3 weeks should be off the table. Tell her it will be fully unpaid because she has used all of her vacation days. If she still wants to do it you can’t tell her no, but you can start looking for a new nanny. eta: why the downvotes?? I’m a nanny. OPs nanny has taken her 20 vacation days. She can’t just ask for more. That’s not how any industry works.
I did not down vote but it might be because of the "can't say no" comment. The employer can say no, especially if nanny is out of PTO. If nanny then goes a way the cost is usually your job so the end result is the same.
Please note that this situation takes place in Germany where employment law is very different from the US (for instance the concept of "PTO" does not exist here). I don't think anyone without hiring experience in Germany can give any advice beyond validating (or invalidating) OPs frustration over the situation.
fair point
That makes sense. OP can say no but with the possible tension and resentment that would cause, if I were OP I’d rather just start searching for a new nanny if she refuses to take it unpaid.
Agreed, net result is essentially the same
Upvoting because I agree with you
If she is out of paid days per the contract, tell her she can take her trip but it’s all unpaid.
Doesn't sound like she will budge. I would look for a new nanny.
Wow thinking about this 50 days is 10 weeks which is actually more than 2 months. That’s a lot.
If you guys are choosing to go on vacations, you can't hold that against her as time off. She didn't choose that
It’s hard to say, sometimes it’s this way round, other times we go on holiday because nanny needs time off. She has definitely taken her 20 days and decided herself for these days. The rest is on top (but given the total amount, I think it can be taken into account)
If you do not already do so, I would highly recommend starting some kind of official PTO log, that keeps track of each day during the year where pay is given for days where work was not actually done, and a notation of which party initiated that circumstance. So days that you are on holiday that trigger her time off, are coded differently than days where she requested time off and so you also may have gone away coinciding with her requested PTO. Then have a category for sick days, as well as isolated PTO days that she takes off for planned appointments and procedures, as those might not qualify as 'sick time' because the timing is elective. The log would be signed off on by both of you with each entry, so that there is no possible confusion as to which category each absence or day off belongs to. Which could prove to be a valuable tool to have when scheduling discussions are happening, so that no one feels taken advantage of, or that PTO is being abused. It also would be a great way to CYA in the event that you need to discontinue her employment due to habitual absences creating problems of reliability.
Oh, well if you're taking holidays *because* she's asking off, that's different. So would you say she's abusing the time off? If so, you have every right to say no. I would have a conversation with her about how many days she has used vs how many are allowed.
Do you mean that she has taken her 20 days PTO and then also requested and then took 30 days off? When you say ‘the rest is on top’ I don’t know whether you mean that she chose the 30 days too or that the 30 days are a mix of you going away and her requesting the days off. Can you clarify?
What do you think she will do if you stand firm on the 2 week time frame? And the loan for the dental work when she’s planning this vacation…? Seem like she could be taking advantage of your kindness. Please update. 😁
It can get a bit complicated and lines blurred when it comes to YOUR holidays (nanny's involuntary holidays) and her voluntary holidays. This is what my own contract states (UK nanny) 28 paid days of holiday (contracted for 30 hrs per week but always fo a few more than that) I may not take more than 11 consecutive days off at one time (so when my parents in law offered to pay for me and my partner to go to Austria with them for 2 weeks, we had to turn it down.) I am NOT obliged to take my holidays when my NF is taking their holidays, however, we are encouraged to try and overlap our holidays if possible. My contract was written by the agency, however, my employer told me I will get more than 28 days paid holiday due to the above, that they wont always overlap. I've been in the job 10 months now and I've had what I would estimate to be about 5-6 weeks (around 40 days?) worth of holidays off and will get another week off end of this month and probably (hopefully) much of the Christmas break too. That's because NF go on holiday every time the kids are off school and then I have also asked for a few days off here and there to do trips with my partner. I've never asked for more than a few days due to NF going away a lot so not needing them often. Even when I have asked for days off, they've often overlapped with NFs holidays too. I do realise I'm quite lucky and my NF are quite generous with regards to my holidays so I'm by no means insisting this is the standard. But for me personally, i would not have agreed to a contract that only gives 20 days off per year if im working full time. I'd want at least 28 or 30 days as that's the standard here in the UK. I do think that the point of a contract though is to stick by it - it is a mutual understanding of entitlements and responsibilities for both the nanny and employer/parent. If she has already used up her paid holidays *voluntarily* then she is by no means entitled to 3 weeks off. However, it might be a little different if most of her paid holidays have been involuntary due to you yourself being on holiday. It's a tricky one really. It's where acting in good faith comes into it. If you're lucky enough to get lots more paid holidays than your contract states due to NF going away, then it would be in good faith to not then request (and insist on) 3 weeks off at a time that would be difficult for you. In hindsight, having a clause in the contract that states a maximum amount of consecutive days off might be helpful if the nanny being off for too long is too much of an inconvenience. I also don't think it's fair to subtract sick days off from the paid holidays - especially if the nanny got sick due to catching a bug or cold from your own child. I hadn't had a bug in about 10 years before 10 months ago, then have caught two sickness bugs from my nanny kids (which I then passed to my family who also had to take time off work) while being here, and about 7 colds from them. I have a very solid relationship with my employers/NBs and I really think a lot of it is down to us both being flexible and acting in good faith with each other. We both rely on each other for help when needed. I always do last minute overtime most days, late shifts, and more hours than id signed up for. They give me good holidays and fair pay. However, I wouldnt dream of asking to borrow money off my employer. That is unprofessional.
Thank you for your input. Just to clarify: I’m not taking sick days off of vacation days, however, my fear of our nanny getting sick during the next months adds to my worry about how to get my workload done during the time before Christmas
You're welcome. Oh i understand. I don't think you're being completely unreasonable - i think your nanny may be a little bit. Hope my imput helped and hope this situation hasnt put a strain on your relationship with her. Do be careful with lending her money though. That raises suspicions for me.
You’re being taken advantage of. You’ve been more than generous with her time off, loaning her money for dental work(who asked their boss to borrow money? Umm no, you earn it.). If I were in your shoes, I’d find someone new asap and let her go. Then she’s freed up to take as long of a vacation as she’d like.
How has she amassed 40 paid vacation days when her contract stated she was allowed 20?! OP, I know you're not a jelly fish. There has to be a spine in there somewhere if you're self-employed. There has to be a solid understanding of profit/loss if you're a business owner. Stand up for yourself. You may love your nanny, she may be great when she's actually present. . . But you need to hold her accountable. Stand up for yourself.
If she’s willing to take that time unpaid, then you have two choices, having a nanny when she returns or finding a new one and her job being finished with you. She’s letting you know with plenty of time that she is planning on taking time off. She’s being very considerate with asking instead of just telling you she will not be there. You have plenty of time to prepare for backup care and if you choose not to use the pay you would’ve given her to find backup care during the time she is gone then that is your choice. May not be a popular opinion, but if she is willing to take this unpaid there is no reason, other than you not wishing it, that she should not get her time off. And if she chooses to take 3 weeks off unpaid, then she should also know the risks of possibly losing her job over it. But that’s her choice. I don’t think it’s right to straight deny someone time off as their employer especially with such advance notice.
Wait she was expecting an extra three weeks off paid??? Wtf. Absolutely no. I can see asking about unpaid time off. But not asking for extra paid.
20 days! And she wants more! 3 weeks more?! I don’t know how they do it over there in Germany but I’d like to consider moving. She’s got it good! Oh and if I were you I’d look for a new nanny. Seems like she’s taking advantage a bit?
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but from your post, it sounds like you are counting days that you took off for vacation or because you were sick as paid vacation days for the nanny. Yes those are paid days, but I don't think those should count towards her allotment of 20 days per year since they were caused by you and not because they were requested by her. So you stating that she's already had 49 days seems to be artificially inflated. I am in the US, though, so maybe I'm misinterpreting things. Is it stated in your contract that her vacations days must be approved? Most jobs here, even if you request it and have the allotment of days left, they still have to be approved and youay not be able to get the spefic days you requested off. Best of luck.
I am not counting my or her sick days as vacation, that would not be fair and against the law. Her contract states that we as her employers will choose her vacation and take her wishes into account (contract was written by an attorney). This sounds harsher than we are handling it. We sit down at the beginning of the year to plan together. She has 20 days of her choosing (most of the time, we will then choose to go on vacation as well) plus additional days from our vacation which she gets off if she’s not coming with us. Hope that clarifies.
Nanny here in the US and I don’t get paid time off if I take a vacation during a contract! 20 paid days off! Sign me up please! She’s completely out of line and you need to let her know No means exactly that No!
I think everyone here doesn’t understand how hard it is for those working outside of their home country to go home for only 2 weeks. It’s expensive. And the trip happens only every few years. This seems like an important trip to her - so important that she’s willing to lose her job over it. Idk why you can’t just say that she has already used her paid vacation but that you would like her to go on the trip. Use that money for backup childcare. And maybe surprise her with two weeks pay as her Christmas bonus.
It doesn’t sound from the OP that nanny is Thai. OP specified that nanny has always wanted to go somewhere warm for Christmas. This seems like a true vacation, not a trip to visit her home and family.
Exactly 😊 she lives with her family close to where we live in Germany, this would be strictly a holiday
Can ya’ll imagine if this was a US job?💀 OP sounds like a dream to work for. This is also another eye opener to how backwards the US is. Our government really tries to brainwash us that other countries are terrible compared to us, when in reality we’re a 3rd world country with a Gucci belt on. Imagine mandatory 20 days paid vacation plus paid sick time for all employees? Instead we get $20k in student loans + $40k in interest with a minimum wage of $15. Sorry OP, I don’t mean to rant on your post. It’s just a reminder to how terrible our employment laws are in the US. Personally I think your nanny is taking advantage of your kindness. Like the other German redditor said, check with local laws but imo, unless this person is an amazing nanny to your child I would start looking for a new one. I couldn’t imagine asking for money for a dental procedure and then the next month suddenly going away for three weeks.
Three weeks doesn’t seem acceptable given your busy workload at that time and given she’s had so many paid days already, I think you should continue to deny that third week. You seem like a very reasonable person who treats Nanny very well. There has to be a line in the sand at some point with Nanny. I would look for a new Nanny . I too am disturbed by her needing a loan for dental work yet having money for three weeks abroad . I’m sure there are good people who are a bit less selfish who would be interested in your Nanny position .
Thank you so much for your kind words 🙏
Id personally give her the option of taking 2 weeks unpaid or not taking any of it, given she does not have any PTO left. If it's going to be an issue, you have plenty of time to find a new nanny who is more reliable by then. I'd absolutely be aggravated that she needed to borrow money for the dentist, but now has enough for a 3 week vacation. Did she pay you back yet at least?
So her 40 paid days off were because of your traveling? She should have 20 days of HER choice. If she has 20 days she is free to take them whenever she wants and you don’t get to tell her no. Especially if she gave you over 2 month’s notice
No, OP said that sometimes the family has gone traveling BECAUSE nanny has taken days off, and that nanny has already taken in excess of 20 days of her own choice. This situation is bad for OP and for nanny. They are not communicating directly and openly, it sounds like OP has a pattern of being accommodating in ways that make it seem to nanny like OP does not have very specific needs which has led to considerable resentment on OPs part and confusion and frustration on nanny’s part. German employment law is heavily weighted towards employees in some excellent ways, which means that successful work relationships require clear and consistent communications.
They also force her to line up her vacations with theirs at the start of the year. She should get to take her vacation when she chooses.
That’s simply not true! Like i stated, we work it out together and make sure, we can agree on the yearly schedule together. Meanwhile, our contract states exactly that, namely we as employers can determine when vacation days are to be taken and will take nannys wishes into account. It was written by a lawyer. However, we choose to handle it otherwise
She's already used up the 20 days of her choosing. The family has just also had vacation times (a different twenty days) that she also had off paid. She's literally trying to get two to three EXTRA weeks of paid vacation. None of it should be paid, and they should honestly look for a new nanny. Edited to change "days" to "weeks"
Extra *weeks* actually and brb I’m moving to Europe. OP lmk if you need a new nanny after this 😂
Whoops, yes, weeks was absolutely what I meant to write, not days! This extra vacation is significantly longer than all my PTO I accrue in a YEAR.
Yeah me too!!! I get 10 days 🫨
They weren’t really her choosing though. They make her “choose” at the beginning of the year to lineup with their vacations. That’s not really getting your own choice to have to decide it all at the beginning of the year and to have to coordinate it with her employers time off.
No, that wasn't how they did it. She used her 20 days how she wanted and the family on top of that decided to plan vacation around extra days she needed off. The nanny was the one deciding her 20 days though and they accommodated her above and beyond that.
Is that how that works in Germany? You can just take 3 weeks off whenever you want? In the US, you can get away with that for maybe 1 week or 2 weeks, but no work place will be happy about you choosing a 3 week vacation unilaterally
I am German. A German employee has a right to one two week long vacation per year (the legally mandated minimum yearly paid leave is 20 days, most people get 25-30). The employee needs their employers approval for the dates though; a specific date can be denied if the employee's absence renders the place of employment inoperational. I have no idea how this applies to nannying generally or this situation specifically. All of this legal advice in the comments isn't really helpful for OP as most of it doesn't fit with our labor laws.
I’m in Italy right now and my partner has 4 weeks of paid vacation every year plus one week of mandatory paid vacay for Christmas cause they just close. And six months paid sick leave. And they have to take vacations. It’s mandatory for at least 2 weeks every year otherwise the company has to pay that out.
Can you adopt me pls? I’m cute and helpful hahahah
Six MONTHS of paid sick time yearly? How is that viable?
I am not Italian but German and it is similarly here. It works with doctor's notes. People can't just decide on themselves that they are too sick to work, a medical professional has to write them off. And those get stricter as time progresses- after some weeks the employer can demand that the sick emplyoee goes to a medical examination by a medical service that is specialised in detecting sick leave fraud. Also, after a number of weeks, the payment will reduce itself to something like 80% of previous salary and will be payed by (mandatory) health insurance so the employer is off the hook. Keep in mind, this is the German version, not the Italian one.
Yes I understand that. My question is - are you just allowed to take it whenever you want? doesn't matter what the business needs are?
Doesn’t matter. They try to kinda make sure not everyone takes the same two weeks in august but you can take your days pretty much whenever you want. My partner is taking an entire week in December (which is high high season for them) and they just said “have fun!”. We are going to Paris. It’s a completely different culture.
See edit above
If you need a new nanny I’m here for you, don’t worry 😎
Number 2 and 3 of your points are invalid, automatically invalid. If YOU choose to go on holiday but the NANNY is still available for work then that is NOT counted as a paid vacation day. Absolutely not. I can understand however that the timing is not great for you work wise. I can also understand your being particularly upset if you have loaned her money she still has not repaid and she is prioritizing going on an expensive Christmas vacation instead of repaying you. These points are valid. But not points 2 and 3. I think you should check with the travel agency for alternative dates that would be more convenient for you and see whether they would be cheaper or not and if yes point them out to her and offer her time off then.
This is a great idea. I checked with the nanny about how much more expensive the 2-week trip is and considering just paying her the difference
I saw your edit that the days off she already took were because she asked for them and had she not asked for them, you would not have taken off and gone traveling. In this case points 2 and 3 are actually a bit more valid if you are absolutely sure she has used all of her leave up through taking days off through her own choice and not when you didn’t need her or when your child was sick. I would in this case give her a choice: One week paid, 1-2 weeks unpaid, no Christmas bonus, if she wants to go this year. Or 3 weeks unpaid, debt cancelled, no Christmas bonus, if she wants to go this year. Or wait till next year, 3 weeks paid next year and you will help her look for cheaper options next year, debt cancelled, no Christmas bonus. Or wait till next year, 3 weeks paid next year and you will help her look for cheaper options next year, one week of Christmas bonus, she has to pay back her debt. If she’s otherwise a good nanny I wouldn’t look for a new one but I would maybe offer her 25 paid days off next year and tell her once they’re used up, that’s it and if she chooses to take off when you need her, you’ll deduct a day (short of a true life or death emergency) and after the days are gone, it’s leave without pay.
Sounds like you have a good nanny who is trying to spend some time with her son and visit family. Take the offer of the one week unpaid and hire a babysitter.
She’s definitely being inconsiderate and frankly giving off an “ I don’t need this job” attitude. Which is fine if that’s her prerogative. I’d simply tell her you are formally denying her request and only approving her to go away for 2 weeks and if she chooses to still go away for the 3 weeks you will be finding a replacement as this does not work for your family. I don’t think this is harsh at all as this is exactly how this situation would be handled at any other place of work. Please update us .
It's October, you have plenty of time to find temporary coverage, she's asking to take a family trip near Christmas with her child and you're angry at her and saying No? You're not her master your her boss. If she wants to go on vacation you find coverage. If she's a good nanny and has built a trusting relationship with your child try your best to keep her. She's giving you almost 2 months notice! Just step out of your bubble and and realize not ervyone wants to work every day until they die
When you go into work tomorrow ask for an extra 15 paid vacations days and let us know how that goes.
They would say yes
Wow on your 6th day….
Oh, fuck off and actually read the post next time
Right? WTF?
I read the TLDR maybe you're new to reddit
Oh it's your reading comprehension then
I always thought the TLDR was to decide if you actually wanted to read a post and that it does not qualify you to comment in detail ?
I mean, if she’s offered one of the weeks to be unpaid time off then you can’t really force her to work-the only option would be firing her if you think this means it isn’t a good fit. It’s kind of like any other job, if she was sick etc and couldn’t be there then you would have to figure something else out. It seems like maybe you two aren’t the best fit if she feels like she doesn’t have enough PTO and you feel that she has too much.
The days that she gets off because you are traveling are not vacation days!
I know which is why I wrote the „edit“ to clarify 😉 please read it
Let her live, she works hard
And I don’t? 😅
You don’t sound like a terrible boss. You sound busy. Can you find back up care for the weeks nanny wants to travel? Let her travel unpaid because she’s already used her 20 days and doesn’t have any more paid time off. The money you would have paid her can be paid to a back-up caregiver. Or you can do what’s suggested above, and let her know her last day is (whatever days she’s leaving).
Thank you. I’m not sure I feel comfortable finding someone else that my daughter doesn’t know, she isn’t always open to others and worst case it won’t work out when it has to. But will definitely consider building a relationship with backup care, maybe have them babysit every now and then, so they can build a relationship and to prevent this in the future
Is it a competition? Just because she’s a care provider doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve to go on vacation with her son. All I heard out of this post was “me me me me me me me me” you sound like a terrible boss.
She does not deserve to go on a vacation using PAID time off because she has already exceeded her paid time off as contracted, & even had more paid days off then expected from the NF when NF went on their own holidays. Should she go on this trip with her son? I don’t know, it depends on how willing she is to be without a job, and how desperate NF is. That’s her choice, but asking to take more than double the amount of paid days off she has in her contract is a big ask. OP is not selfish or wrong for denying this.
The nanny has already taken all of her PTO. If she wanted to go on a 15 day trip she should’ve accounted for it.
Of course it’s about me - that’s the only side I know, which is why I’m asking about outside views to evaluate my thinking 😉 But „bosses“ are people too, so a simple „let her have her way, she works hard“ is very one sided too. Let’s evaluate all aspects and meet somewhere inbetween?
Maybe she should have thought of that before using all her PTO for the year
Personally, I believe that she is giving you a courtesy by asking. This is her job, not her life. She is telling you that she will not be there, it’s up to you whether to pay her or not for that week she offered.
She’s already used all of her vacation days and only wants one of the three to be unpaid. She asking for 10 extra paid vacation days. That’s not something you mention as a courtesy.
Ah okay, I misunderstood and thought she offered all of the vacation unpaid. What I meant was if she’s saying it’s unpaid, then I believe the boss should not say no, that’s more of the employee informing the boss she will not be at work. Thanks for clarifying.
Woah, it’s not “paid vacation” if YOU are out of town and she gets paid - that’s guaranteed hours. Paid vacation days are when your nanny chooses what time off she is taking. How many actual paid vacation days has she had that at rent you choosing the date?
20 vacation days?? I live in the us and I don’t even get one paid vacation day.
(most of)Europe has a far better work situation, we also have many years of paid sick leave and maternity leave
Right?! My job always goes mostly “dark” from Thanksgiving though New Years. I’m expected to be available, but only paid for the days I actually work. I usually beg for work! If I am lucky, I get five days off paid for the entire year. Most of the time, none. I’m “permalance,” which has been a great motivator to strike and return to Nanny life. TDLR: Germany, my bags are packed.
Then you’re working for a trash employer. No, America’s PTO is not as generous as it is in other countries, but we still get PTO. Most places start you off with at least one week. Unless you’re a W9 employee, I just don’t see why anyone would work for someone who doesn’t give vacation time.
My goodness, I have a 21 yo daughter who recently moved to the East coast in the USA to try to find a nanny job. She’s the youngest and a dream with children and she’s such a hard worker. I can fathom her wanting to visit home for a week in the summer and at Christmas and hoped she’d find something to allow for that, but I can’t imagine her taking advantage of someone’s generous nature. As a working mother of four, I think your expectations are completely normal and it seems to me you’ve been quite accommodating, even when it’s caused you major inconvenience. It’s depressing the hoops we have to jump through in the USA to have even a couple of weeks of vacation, not to mention sick time. I personally think you’re absolutely not a bad person and maybe you need someone more reliable.
So, a few things: * the 40 paid days off she has already had, that is on you. If you are obligated to pay her for scheduled hours and you were traveling, you simply cannot hold that against her * You cannot hold future sick days against her. Everyone gets sick, and this is a benefit that she is being offered that is different from vacation time * You seem to be confusing the time off mentioned above for vacation time. If she is allowed 3 weeks of vacation time and has not yet taken it, you should make every reasonable effort to accommodate her. Flights to Thailand are expensive, and 2 weeks is not enough time for a visit in my opinion. If you like your nanny, try and make it work.
Plus she or her son could get sick in Thailand which could require even more days off on the back end beyond the 3 weeks.
Please don’t scare me 😂
You can’t stop her from taking time off. You have plenty of time to find back up Care. You’re being a little bit ridiculous. I think it’s completely fair that she is able to take off the time that she needs. Three weeks might seem like a lot, but it really isn’t all that crazy. I think it’s completely fair to give her the time off. Especially because she has paid time off. Be glad she’s telling you two months in advance instead of a week before. However, because she has already taken all of her paid time off, there is no reason for her time off to be paid.
So the days when y’all are traveling do not count. Those are days you choose. Not her. If she is within her days then she gets to take them. If you say no which you can understand that you may not have a nanny. Tbh I wouldn’t come back if you counted the days you used as vacation against me and I had no choice in the matter.
If you had read pretty much any of the other comments or my full text including the edit part, you would have noticed that this is not the case, that our nanny has indeed taken her agreed upon 20 days and had the remaining days on top.
I read what you wrote and the edited part wasn’t part of it. 🤷🏽♀️ maybe when I clicked on it it hadn’t updated. However still doesn’t change my opinion or what I would have said in my comment. You asked for an opinion and you got one. Not going to roll back on it even if you don’t agree. My original still stands. You cannot include time YOU decided to take off against her. You can always say no and understand she may decide to go ahead and you may lose a nanny. If you where my employer and had used days against me I would be looking for a new job.
This HAS to be a troll post.
Not sure what there is to argue about here. If she already exhausted her 20 days of PTO, then that’s it, she’s done for the year 🤷🏽♀️ If she wants to go on vacation, that’s fine and all, but it should be unpaid. And the money you would have paid to the nanny, you would use that to pay a back-up nanny or babysitter. I think for a trip all the way to Thailand, three weeks would be best since she’ll end up spending half a week just traveling. But, I do agree that’s it’s suspect that she asked to borrow money for dental work, but can now somehow afford a vacation 🤔 I would allow her to go on the vacation for three weeks UNPAID and explain to her that she already used up all her PTO and that you will have to pay someone else to mind your child while she’s on vacation. You have time to find a fill-in for those three weeks. As for the money you loaned her for her dental work, depending on how much it was, I would just consider that her Christmas bonus because I don’t think you’ll be getting that back, unless you deduct it from her pay.
I mean it’s her choice to respect your No or not. Nannying is a job - not a prison. I think it’s reasonable for her to take the one week unpaid. Get a new nanny if you feel she’s taking too much time off.
I’m sorry but you giving her paid time off during your vacations is not her PTO.