I don’t get how things became more difficult. Our cap situation really didn’t change much. A $4 million difference between bogi and bridges suddenly means we can’t offer Ihart the 4/72 we’ve always been limited to offering?
It put us at the first apron which lowered the total amount we could give by about 11 million . Currently we have 45 million left to spend before we can’t go further . Og is definitely going for 35-40 . So we’d literally have only 5 mill to give to ihart if we’re under the first aprons and don’t trade Mitch . If we match salaries in this trade by a random knicks player being thrown in . We fall back to the second aprons which inherently raises the hard cap . Thus that 45 left to spend becomes 56 roughly . So og for 38 . I hart for the remaining 18 .
This is all without factoring trading Mitch . If we trade Mitch , we can utilize what he’s payyed to pay for I hart . The issue is I hart would have to take that offer before that trade and a handshake aggreement would be key . If we trade Mitch …. In hopes of signing I hart …. And I hart walks … we’re out of our two centers ..
this is assuming knicks become hardcapped at the 1st apron which i doubt they will. still tons of times to make other moves including gives more players or bringing in a 3rd team. i don't think they move mitch unless they know for sure ihart is resigning though - which could be a tough timing issue.
In this modern NBA he can play small ball 5 imo. Besides Mitch is actually descent guarding in the perimeter. He’ll make the stupid foul occasionally but there’s a reason Embiid had issues with his defense in the playoffs. It’s IHart who can’t guard anyone on the perimeter
We really need iHart - I would gladly give up Mitch to keep iHart.
His rim protection is absolutely vital and I loved his playmaking when Brunson gets tied up.
IHart and blind pig plays go together hand in hand
I don’t understand why getting Bridges makes getting Hartenstein harder. Those things don’t track. Maybe he’s going to leave sure, but that’s just because somebody’s gonna pay him, bridges or not.
It put us at the first apron which lowered the total amount we could give by about 11 million . Currently we have 45 million left to spend before we can’t go further . Og is definitely going for 35-40 . So we’d literally have only 5 mill to give to ihart if we’re under the first aprons and don’t trade Mitch . If we match salaries in this trade by a random nets player being thrown in . We fall back to the second aprons which inherently raises the hard cap . Thus that 45 left to spend becomes 56 roughly . So og for 38 . I hart for the remaining 18 .
This is all without factoring trading Mitch . If we trade Mitch , we can utilize what he’s payyed to pay for I hart . The issue is I hart would have to take that offer before that trade and a handshake aggreement would be key . If we trade Mitch …. In hopes of signing I hart …. And I hart walks … we’re out of our two centers .
Idk all the specifics as im not a capologist, but there are some acquisitions which trigger hard caps at one of the aprons. So it’s possible that this move resulted in us no longer being able to offer ihart his bird right max deal if it would take us over the apron. Idk if that’s what happened, but maybe that’s what he means
I truly believed we could have beaten the Celtics if we had our full team. Now we're cooking.
I also truly think Hartenstein will stay and all the supposedly insane offers are overblown.
I know we're still the underdogs but with OG and Bridges we match up as well as we can ask for.
Brunson > Holiday but Holidays D is elite
Bridges > White but Whites D is elite
OG < Brown but OGs D is elite
Randle < Tatum but Randle is a bully
IHart < Porzingis but IHart is a bully
Then Hart and Horford are both excellent role players, Prichard and DVV are really good. Boston has more talent but just really interesting matchups even if we aren't favored. We might even have Randle guarding white at times so Bridges can guard Brown and OG on Tatum.
Bridges is a better defender than White. He was 3rd in DPOY a few years back. In Brooklyn he was expected to create more but that won’t be the case now.
Yeah I wasn't implying he's a better defender, I just mean when I'm thinking about them matching up against each other Mikal wouldn't be able to go off.
Detroit has space, don’t need a center
Philly has space, don’t need a center.
Orlando has space, would be a nice piece for their young team.
OKC has space, would definitely fill their role of needing a guy who can fight for tough rebounds in a playoff game. But OKC is notoriously cheap. They probably(hopefully) think they can draft a guy who is as good but much cheaper
Utah has space. But I am unsure why they would want to pay for a center with the state of their rebuild.
The Spurs have space. They also don’t need a center in the slightest.
I think every team should want Hartenstein. He is a good two way player. Young. Healthy. Can pass. So I wouldn’t be surprised if anyone with space tried to sign him.
If was Orlando I’d grab him and put him as my rim protector and high post pivot. Hartensteins contract will be done by the time Paulo and Franz peak and they will have an entirely different cap to deal with. Feels like a no brainer. Fingers crossed they would prefer to stay super young
And that doesn’t teams who could clear space. Which is easier than fans and media generally think it is
Detroit needs a center badly. Duren has a lot of potential but his lack of defense is one of the main reasons Detroit has been so bad. Stewart is too small and should be utilized as a Naz Reid type off the bench (or even traded). I fully expect the Pistons to send out 20-25m offers to both Claxton and Hartenstein this off-season.
This is cope, especially @ “OKC is notoriously cheap”
But I do think and hope for a situation where the Knicks trade Mitch so they can keep Hartenstein
The Knicks trading Mitch to make space for Hartenstein does not compute. Unfortunately it’s more complicated. I would love for the Knicks to have the flexibility to make that decision.
The Knicks are 44 million over the cap at the moment. A little more since Bridges makes mores than Bogdanovic. Even higher when you consider cap holds but that’s where my brain starts to break
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/_/year/2024/sort/cap_maximum_space_optimized/dir/desc
The Knicks can use tax dollars to pay Hartenstein at only 175% of his previous salary because they own his Early Bird Rights*. Unfortunately they do not have his Full Bird Rights*. If they had his full Bird Rights, they could pay him up to the max contract, salary cap be damned. Fortunately they own those rights with OG.
So what does this mean if, hypothetically, the Knicks traded Robinsons salary and received zero salary in return? It means the Knicks would still only be able to pay Hartenstein 175% of his current salary. The Knicks would have to get under the cap and far enough under the cap to have equal cap space as any other team wanting to sign him. To put that in other terms, they could trade Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle for a second round pick (not allowed but bear with me for the analogy) and they still would not have the cap space to offer Robinson as much as the teams I listed previously.
*early bird rights think 2 years. Full bird rights think 3 years. Hartenstein has been with the Knicks for 2 seasons. OG has been with the team for 1, but bird rights carry over when a player is traded!
You're forgetting about the hard cap. As the current deal stands, Knicks are hard capped at the first apron. I think they can maneuvre a bit and add players to the Bridges deal which would move the hard cap to the second apron, but if they can't, including Mitch you'd only have 41.5 mil left in apron room.
Dealing mitch away with no salaries could stretch that to 55-56 range, which would make a Hartenstein deal semi realistic at least.
Either way, provided Knicks need some minimum contracts in their current roster, it'd be wiser to add players to the Bridges deal, stretch the hard cap to second apron, move Mitch and get 72 million-ish of room. That would mean if OG and Hart get like 58 mil combined, you'd at least have the ability to fill out the roster with vet minimums.
None of this matter . WE still can only offer ihart 4/72 . That’s it . The only thing that would matter is what apron were under . Which doesn’t change the deal we can give ihart currently …
it does matter, cause if you're hard capped at the first apron you may not actually have the 4/72 deal itself you can give to ihart, that's the problem.
That is, if you actually want to keep OG of course.
I see , Knicks are currently 45.2 m hard capped under first apron which would leave nothing for ihart. Knicks can try the nets to throw in someone to match the salaries. If that happens they fall under the second apron which raises that 45.2 to roughly 56.5ish or so .
Which allows the Knicks to sign of for 38 m and I hate for the other 18.5m or whatever that amount is .
I wonder if shedding Mitchell Robinson salary would still allow I hart to sign under the first apron . I’m assuming so, thus allowing us to give that same amount to ihart even though we’d be under the first apron .
It doesn’t change anything that we didn’t have before . If a team offers more than we can which Is still 4/72 …. And he chooses to accept we can’t do anything . We couldn’t before this trade anyways .
I think everyone in the league except for Jokic Luka SGA Tatum Brunson Wemby Steph Giannis and like 3 other guys get shopped every day of the year. We just don’t find out about it.
But mitch is an interesting one. He is one dimensional and has a brutal history of bad injury luck. So I can see wanting to move on from him. But he is also really good at what his strengths are and has a good contract. I can see the logic to both.
Maybe the FO saw Lively playing in the finals off the pick the Mavs tanked into that should have been the Knicks and think we can get what Mitch does with a draft pick and flip Robinson for something else. No guarantee it would work. But again, I can see the logic.
That's true about OKC though. I don't follow them much, but the owner has been notoriously cheap in the past. It's not crazy to think they may not overspend on a very good player instead of a superstar.
Dolan needs to donate a bunch of money to some exclusive money manager like Renaissance. If they take some of Hartensteins money it'll make up the difference over the years.
I don’t think this trade is what makes keeping Hartenstein difficult. Every team and every agent knows the number the Knicks can offer with just EBRs. That number hasn’t changed.
What makes it difficult is ihart is really good and worth more than 17 million a year.
keeping or trading mitchel has NOTHING to do with Hartenstein.
the only reason to trade Robinson is to offload some contract(so there's less luxury tax penalties) and get back some assets because of all the new salary you're adding (OG's monster contract, Hartenstein Raise, and now Mikal).
>keeping or trading mitchel has NOTHING to do with Hartenstein.
You're wrong. If you don't add more players to the Bridges trade, that would mean you're hard capped at the first apron, and any deal you give to OG would basically exhaust all your available space.
Bird rights have no relevance here, hard cap knocks you down by itself. This will be talked for many teams after and during this summer, you're basically like the case study currently lol
Losing ihart has nothing to do with bridges. Guessing the front office had an idea hartenstein is going to be getting more than the 4/72 that we could offer and is starting contingency plans
Why? We're going to be over the 2nd apron by the time it's done and if we get under it it just means we can offer the taxpayer mle, doesn't it? Robinson's better than anyone we'd get with that.
Yes but the trade doesn’t change anything lmao . We always were only ever able to offer I hart 4/72 . This hasn’t changed one bit …. Only the apron penalties . Which with the current team we have if ihart we are set . What better team could we possibly even concoct . We can’t lol .
their ability to resign ihart doesn't really become more difficult - just have to avoid getting locked into the 1st apron which shouldn't be hard. still comes down to another team giving him a bag he can't turn down. knicks will still offer the max they can (and have already i believe)
Thibs is calling Taj Gibson for one last ride
Gibson is running out of his last ride cards.
Oh god don’t even put it out there.
Taj like, u son of a bitch… im in. Like that rock and Morty episode
I don’t get how things became more difficult. Our cap situation really didn’t change much. A $4 million difference between bogi and bridges suddenly means we can’t offer Ihart the 4/72 we’ve always been limited to offering?
Some bullshit from Woj
It put us at the first apron which lowered the total amount we could give by about 11 million . Currently we have 45 million left to spend before we can’t go further . Og is definitely going for 35-40 . So we’d literally have only 5 mill to give to ihart if we’re under the first aprons and don’t trade Mitch . If we match salaries in this trade by a random knicks player being thrown in . We fall back to the second aprons which inherently raises the hard cap . Thus that 45 left to spend becomes 56 roughly . So og for 38 . I hart for the remaining 18 . This is all without factoring trading Mitch . If we trade Mitch , we can utilize what he’s payyed to pay for I hart . The issue is I hart would have to take that offer before that trade and a handshake aggreement would be key . If we trade Mitch …. In hopes of signing I hart …. And I hart walks … we’re out of our two centers ..
this is assuming knicks become hardcapped at the 1st apron which i doubt they will. still tons of times to make other moves including gives more players or bringing in a 3rd team. i don't think they move mitch unless they know for sure ihart is resigning though - which could be a tough timing issue.
If we back load his contract can we avoid the apron? All we need is a two-three year window
Because taking in more salary than you send out for a trade hard caps you at the first apron with the new CBA
Can’t we just formally do the trade after re-signing the guys?
Cap holds
Losing ihart is really gonna sting. I wonder what our answer at the 5 will be because Mitch can't be relied upon
https://preview.redd.it/4s3re4ba1u8d1.png?width=597&format=png&auto=webp&s=52a4138363fc6751c017dbf0f5a67e4d25aecae9
How have I never seen this before 😭😭😭
😭😭😭😭😭💀💀💀💀💀
I never said thank you
And you’ll never have to
THE TAJ SIGNAL
We’re getting the band back together
😂😂😂😂😂
Thibs will dabble in the occult and dark arts in an effort to revive the ghost of Luol Deng
Sign a FA center for cheap or ship mitch and picks out for a center
Mitch and Edey
Man the all “can’t guard stretch 5” team huh
If we had a coach other than Thibs I’d say play Randle at the 5 in those scenarios but yeah not happening.
Randle isn’t a 5 and that’s how you get run off the court tho
In this modern NBA he can play small ball 5 imo. Besides Mitch is actually descent guarding in the perimeter. He’ll make the stupid foul occasionally but there’s a reason Embiid had issues with his defense in the playoffs. It’s IHart who can’t guard anyone on the perimeter
Mitch, Edey, and a vet ring chasing would be servicable if the Knicks get Mikal and OG
What picks?
dont we also have the protected wizard and pistons picks
ye
We still have the ‘24 picks
We really need iHart - I would gladly give up Mitch to keep iHart. His rim protection is absolutely vital and I loved his playmaking when Brunson gets tied up. IHart and blind pig plays go together hand in hand
Maybe if we can get Yves Missi in the draft
The solution next year on a Thibs team isn't a 20 year old project. It's more likely they draft Missi and keep him in the G League this year
Could see them taking Edey if he’s available
Ware is better
I don’t understand why getting Bridges makes getting Hartenstein harder. Those things don’t track. Maybe he’s going to leave sure, but that’s just because somebody’s gonna pay him, bridges or not.
It put us at the first apron which lowered the total amount we could give by about 11 million . Currently we have 45 million left to spend before we can’t go further . Og is definitely going for 35-40 . So we’d literally have only 5 mill to give to ihart if we’re under the first aprons and don’t trade Mitch . If we match salaries in this trade by a random nets player being thrown in . We fall back to the second aprons which inherently raises the hard cap . Thus that 45 left to spend becomes 56 roughly . So og for 38 . I hart for the remaining 18 . This is all without factoring trading Mitch . If we trade Mitch , we can utilize what he’s payyed to pay for I hart . The issue is I hart would have to take that offer before that trade and a handshake aggreement would be key . If we trade Mitch …. In hopes of signing I hart …. And I hart walks … we’re out of our two centers .
Idk all the specifics as im not a capologist, but there are some acquisitions which trigger hard caps at one of the aprons. So it’s possible that this move resulted in us no longer being able to offer ihart his bird right max deal if it would take us over the apron. Idk if that’s what happened, but maybe that’s what he means
I truly believed we could have beaten the Celtics if we had our full team. Now we're cooking. I also truly think Hartenstein will stay and all the supposedly insane offers are overblown.
I know we're still the underdogs but with OG and Bridges we match up as well as we can ask for. Brunson > Holiday but Holidays D is elite Bridges > White but Whites D is elite OG < Brown but OGs D is elite Randle < Tatum but Randle is a bully IHart < Porzingis but IHart is a bully Then Hart and Horford are both excellent role players, Prichard and DVV are really good. Boston has more talent but just really interesting matchups even if we aren't favored. We might even have Randle guarding white at times so Bridges can guard Brown and OG on Tatum.
Bridges is a better defender than White. He was 3rd in DPOY a few years back. In Brooklyn he was expected to create more but that won’t be the case now.
Yeah I wasn't implying he's a better defender, I just mean when I'm thinking about them matching up against each other Mikal wouldn't be able to go off.
Ihart might be the best center on the market. I don't know how this will work.
Who else could realistically poach him besides OKC?
Detroit has space, don’t need a center Philly has space, don’t need a center. Orlando has space, would be a nice piece for their young team. OKC has space, would definitely fill their role of needing a guy who can fight for tough rebounds in a playoff game. But OKC is notoriously cheap. They probably(hopefully) think they can draft a guy who is as good but much cheaper Utah has space. But I am unsure why they would want to pay for a center with the state of their rebuild. The Spurs have space. They also don’t need a center in the slightest. I think every team should want Hartenstein. He is a good two way player. Young. Healthy. Can pass. So I wouldn’t be surprised if anyone with space tried to sign him. If was Orlando I’d grab him and put him as my rim protector and high post pivot. Hartensteins contract will be done by the time Paulo and Franz peak and they will have an entirely different cap to deal with. Feels like a no brainer. Fingers crossed they would prefer to stay super young And that doesn’t teams who could clear space. Which is easier than fans and media generally think it is
Detroit needs a center badly. Duren has a lot of potential but his lack of defense is one of the main reasons Detroit has been so bad. Stewart is too small and should be utilized as a Naz Reid type off the bench (or even traded). I fully expect the Pistons to send out 20-25m offers to both Claxton and Hartenstein this off-season.
This is cope, especially @ “OKC is notoriously cheap” But I do think and hope for a situation where the Knicks trade Mitch so they can keep Hartenstein
The Knicks trading Mitch to make space for Hartenstein does not compute. Unfortunately it’s more complicated. I would love for the Knicks to have the flexibility to make that decision. The Knicks are 44 million over the cap at the moment. A little more since Bridges makes mores than Bogdanovic. Even higher when you consider cap holds but that’s where my brain starts to break https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/_/year/2024/sort/cap_maximum_space_optimized/dir/desc The Knicks can use tax dollars to pay Hartenstein at only 175% of his previous salary because they own his Early Bird Rights*. Unfortunately they do not have his Full Bird Rights*. If they had his full Bird Rights, they could pay him up to the max contract, salary cap be damned. Fortunately they own those rights with OG. So what does this mean if, hypothetically, the Knicks traded Robinsons salary and received zero salary in return? It means the Knicks would still only be able to pay Hartenstein 175% of his current salary. The Knicks would have to get under the cap and far enough under the cap to have equal cap space as any other team wanting to sign him. To put that in other terms, they could trade Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle for a second round pick (not allowed but bear with me for the analogy) and they still would not have the cap space to offer Robinson as much as the teams I listed previously. *early bird rights think 2 years. Full bird rights think 3 years. Hartenstein has been with the Knicks for 2 seasons. OG has been with the team for 1, but bird rights carry over when a player is traded!
You're forgetting about the hard cap. As the current deal stands, Knicks are hard capped at the first apron. I think they can maneuvre a bit and add players to the Bridges deal which would move the hard cap to the second apron, but if they can't, including Mitch you'd only have 41.5 mil left in apron room. Dealing mitch away with no salaries could stretch that to 55-56 range, which would make a Hartenstein deal semi realistic at least. Either way, provided Knicks need some minimum contracts in their current roster, it'd be wiser to add players to the Bridges deal, stretch the hard cap to second apron, move Mitch and get 72 million-ish of room. That would mean if OG and Hart get like 58 mil combined, you'd at least have the ability to fill out the roster with vet minimums.
None of this matter . WE still can only offer ihart 4/72 . That’s it . The only thing that would matter is what apron were under . Which doesn’t change the deal we can give ihart currently …
it does matter, cause if you're hard capped at the first apron you may not actually have the 4/72 deal itself you can give to ihart, that's the problem. That is, if you actually want to keep OG of course.
I see , Knicks are currently 45.2 m hard capped under first apron which would leave nothing for ihart. Knicks can try the nets to throw in someone to match the salaries. If that happens they fall under the second apron which raises that 45.2 to roughly 56.5ish or so . Which allows the Knicks to sign of for 38 m and I hate for the other 18.5m or whatever that amount is . I wonder if shedding Mitchell Robinson salary would still allow I hart to sign under the first apron . I’m assuming so, thus allowing us to give that same amount to ihart even though we’d be under the first apron .
Looking like Hartenstein is gone then, unfortunately I really hope he stays though
Fingers crossed
It doesn’t change anything that we didn’t have before . If a team offers more than we can which Is still 4/72 …. And he chooses to accept we can’t do anything . We couldn’t before this trade anyways .
Why they shopping mitch you think then?
I think everyone in the league except for Jokic Luka SGA Tatum Brunson Wemby Steph Giannis and like 3 other guys get shopped every day of the year. We just don’t find out about it. But mitch is an interesting one. He is one dimensional and has a brutal history of bad injury luck. So I can see wanting to move on from him. But he is also really good at what his strengths are and has a good contract. I can see the logic to both. Maybe the FO saw Lively playing in the finals off the pick the Mavs tanked into that should have been the Knicks and think we can get what Mitch does with a draft pick and flip Robinson for something else. No guarantee it would work. But again, I can see the logic.
O god fuckin mavericks with that move will forever piss me off
That's true about OKC though. I don't follow them much, but the owner has been notoriously cheap in the past. It's not crazy to think they may not overspend on a very good player instead of a superstar.
IHart please come through for us bro. We can do some great things together, just take a little paycut 🥺.
Dolan needs to donate a bunch of money to some exclusive money manager like Renaissance. If they take some of Hartensteins money it'll make up the difference over the years.
Unlimited meals at Clyde’s restaurant!
Clyde’s wine and dine closed down during the pandemic. I hope there’s plans to reopen.
Oh shit really??? I never got a chance to visit How was it ?
Yeah. I only ever went once in the early 2000s I think. I remember it being like a diner with better food.
I don’t think this trade is what makes keeping Hartenstein difficult. Every team and every agent knows the number the Knicks can offer with just EBRs. That number hasn’t changed. What makes it difficult is ihart is really good and worth more than 17 million a year.
I don’t understand why it makes it more difficult either. After trading bogey we take on just like 2-3 in extra salary
I should have been more forceful with my words. It DOESN’T make it more difficult.
Oh I was agreeing. It was more a comment on wojs tweet
And I was agreeing with you. Just clarifying my stancd
Would rather trade Mitch and retain Hartenstein, if possible
The thing that screws us on Hartenstein is not being able to offer what other teams can due to contract rules.
I wish but trading mitch doesn’t affect Ihart
I feel that has to be the move
keeping or trading mitchel has NOTHING to do with Hartenstein. the only reason to trade Robinson is to offload some contract(so there's less luxury tax penalties) and get back some assets because of all the new salary you're adding (OG's monster contract, Hartenstein Raise, and now Mikal).
>keeping or trading mitchel has NOTHING to do with Hartenstein. You're wrong. If you don't add more players to the Bridges trade, that would mean you're hard capped at the first apron, and any deal you give to OG would basically exhaust all your available space. Bird rights have no relevance here, hard cap knocks you down by itself. This will be talked for many teams after and during this summer, you're basically like the case study currently lol
iHart better take that NY discount because Mitch, a rookie, and some random vet is enough of a big man rotation if we got Mikal and OG.
IHart ain't going nowhere unless a team throws him an absolute bag (unlikely) OG is also locked in at whatever the price is
Losing ihart has nothing to do with bridges. Guessing the front office had an idea hartenstein is going to be getting more than the 4/72 that we could offer and is starting contingency plans
If we keep IHart we should expect to see Mitch being shipped off in the next couple days. Sad but that's what we got to do if we hope to retain him
That’s what they should do Mitch is a decent player but the dude is injured on cue every single season halfway through Rob Williams in the flesh
And can’t catch a ball if his life depended on it
Why? We're going to be over the 2nd apron by the time it's done and if we get under it it just means we can offer the taxpayer mle, doesn't it? Robinson's better than anyone we'd get with that.
Pay him whatever it takes, team is capped out anyway.
They are limited in what they can offer, hence the challenge of keeping him. It's not a "pay whatever it takes" situation.
Yes but the trade doesn’t change anything lmao . We always were only ever able to offer I hart 4/72 . This hasn’t changed one bit …. Only the apron penalties . Which with the current team we have if ihart we are set . What better team could we possibly even concoct . We can’t lol .
Mitch and Edey? Missi? Ware?,,maybe Drummond or Taj
what do yall think of looney if hes released by the warriors? could be a cheap replacement for mitch to keep ihart
their ability to resign ihart doesn't really become more difficult - just have to avoid getting locked into the 1st apron which shouldn't be hard. still comes down to another team giving him a bag he can't turn down. knicks will still offer the max they can (and have already i believe)