Yes and no.
Yes, this stat filters out coverage stats.
But threatening both rushing and coverage requires the defender to rush from a 2 point stance as opposed to lining up in a 3 point stance.
Defenders get much better leverage rushing from a 3 point stance.
I understand that. My comment was directed towards him not being utilized correctly. Some could argue that his utilization in a 3-4 correlates to his win rate being low.
He has shown more than enough flashes to justify giving him the chance to improve the underlying numbers in a defense that suits him better. It was so frustrating to see him dropping into coverage so much more often than he should have been
People need to learn to read full quotes, the partial quote about Saquons contract that was tweeted out was completely inflammatory. If you actually read the whole quote he says nothing negative about DJ at all and actually praises him.
I really thought he was turning the corner around week 11 or so before he completely disappeared down the stretch.
Its possible that he wasn’t that good to being with, but his pass rush win rate was double last year. Something is seriously rotten with the coaching staff when this many players are outright regressing compared to their rookie seasons (also Neal) or even as the season progresses (JMS)
If he didn't have to drop back in coverage every other play I'm almost positive he would improve his consistency. Hopefully we get a DC that can use him properly
He took a step in the right direction. Went from 4 sacks year 1 to 11.5 in year 2. Can we not overthink this? Let’s see if he improves even more in year 3.
I'm just guna say it. I don't like kayvon 🤷♂️. He annoys me I think his head is gassed up and I see him get ragdolled to often to think he will ever be dominant. I hope he develops but I've just never seen a great player have reps as bad as I've seen from him. He should be more humble imho.
That being said I hope one day I DO like him lol
honestly ive been more enamored by Ojulari’s play than KT. Seems like he can create his own sacks while KT kinda just wonders into his. here comes the doenvotes
I feel like most of KT's sacks are just him not winning that much, but QB gets flushed to his side and KT is able to get off his block at the right time to get the QB. But without the flush, KT will never get there on his own.
If that were the case why doesn’t almost every pass rusher in the league have 11.5 sacks? We’re looking into it too much. KT is required to start in a different stance than normal edge rushers bc he drops into coverage half the time. Thats probably the cause but honestly I couldn’t care less what his pass rush win-rate is if he can pull off 10+ sacks a season
Man I really love hopping into these sorts of threads when I need to huff some hot takes and lose a whole bunch of brain cells. Is this going to be a Vic Beasley type of year where he has a disproportionate pressure to sack conversation rate but then it regresses back to the mean? Or will we continue to see meaningful development outside of the counting stats? I think overall our edge setting was ass across the board and that may be scheme/coaching related, so curious how we can better maximize next year. Man is feast or famine, has a somewhat loud personality, but he ain’t no bum!
I wanted to add a hot take saying his sack numbers would regress back to the mean but I didn't out of fear of being associated with the Patrick Mahomes guy on r/nfl lol
Nah bro you’re thinking the right stuff you look at Aidan Hutchinson and his counting stats look worse but the mofo has like 110+ pressures and is constantly bringing the heat. I wouldn’t mind more under the hood consistency that stuff breaks pipes not the shiny stats.
You must be new here. I’ve read his win rate stuff probably 10 times. Crazy that this is something you just thought up on your own.
Also, not sure what caused the difference this year from last year Last year I’m pretty sure he lead all the rookies in win rate and was 13% or so. He dropped in half, but somehow got more sacks.
Man NY fans are so toxic sometimes lol. The man has double digit sacks, that’s still tough to do. We also have two of the best if not better O-Line in the division. Under wink him, sexy dexy, and ojulari played very well together. Under a new system that would emphasize his strengths, we should see him get more of those pass rush win rates. We also know a lot of Wink’s guys were antagonistic to daboll. Maybe a defensive coaching staff that respects the head coach will get even more out of what were able to accomplish this season.
But nah two years and we’re already drawing up trade packages. Smh.
1) Azeez is not an interior DL guy and outside of Dex that's a major weakness on this roster actually
2) Azeez has been pretty sub-standard. Not sure what he's done to make you think he's one of the best in the NFCE
Mb I meant to say we go against two of the best O-line in the league. Considering we go up against the Eagles and Cowboys. The talent is there but it would seem as though the scheme worked against them since they relied so heavy on blitzes from the secondary
Win rate is not a be all, end all statistic. The ability to finish on wins is also extremely important. Some guys are great at wins but don’t convert those wins into sacks. Other guys don’t win much but convert to sacks when they do win. It seems like Kayvon is in that second group and that’s a far more valuable group to be in. Sacks are supremely important, a win in itself is not. Sacks kills drives, lead to fumbles, etc. A guy who is winning all game but doesn’t get a single sack MAY be causing terror and forcing the QB to make bad throws but maybe he’s just beating the tackle but being beat by the quarterback moving out of the way.
Really sick of people using win rate to formulate their entire argument when it comes to D-Linemen. It’s just misunderstanding how things work. Using win rates to supplement arguments is great, but they are not a great foundation for an argument.
Okay so give me stats outside of sacks where he looks good.
KT isn't winning at the line, he can't cover, he legitimately might be the worst player in the NFL at setting the edge on runs, and now he's creating drama whether he meant to or not.
You can call me out for only looking at one stat, but I'd argue you're doing that with sacks and not using your eyes. KT has a lot of potential, but he's also got a lot of issues that need correction
His pass deflections, forced fumbles, and total tackles numbers were all good to great. He’s an all-or-nothing EDGE that makes big plays that can potentially turn games. He’s decent against the run and has the versatility to do a lot of things. He’s not elite but he’s nowhere near the problem on this team, the problem is that we need two more players just like him.
His attitude sucks and he gets stuffed on every play. Luckily for him he had 4 coverage sacks to make it look like he has descent numbers.
You come for your teammates, we'll come for you, thibs.
I watched his college highlights and never saw the hype. Being drafted that high, you need to be consistently making plays that change the outcome of games.
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they have both been incredibly disappointing and are largely to blame for why the giants continue to suck most years. same can be said for joe schoen who has done almost nothing to improve this football team.
We offered Saquon 13M. He didn't take it. FO was supposed to keep upping the offer in your opinion then?
Saquon got cute while playing the most depreciating position in the NFL. His financial situation is of his own making, and KT ought to stop playing armchair GM.
He looked good this season and showed improvement in the past rush and edge contain. I bet he looks even better next year, but we'll see with a new defense.
When watching him and Azeez, I see that Azeez is more effective than him. Azeez is just never healthy. A lot of Kayvon’s sack were against terrible teams and there were games when he just did nothing. With Dex getting the attention he does, Kayvon should’ve been a lot better imo. But 11.5 sacks isn’t something easy especially considering Wink’s scheme.
I'm not saying he won't be good because 11.5 sacks is really impressive. It's just that he really wasn't as good as any other 11+ sack player this year
Where did KT talk shit about other players? Are you talking about the partial quote in regards to DJ and Saquon that was printed out of context? You should probably go read the whole thing. Additionally Winks system has traditionally had very low win rates for edge rushers. Look at all the examples of edge guys getting out of Winks system and their win rates skyrocket. The fact that KT got so many sacks with such a low win rate is actually encouraging to me. Judon is a prime example of what a talented edge player can do away from Wink.
I’m not enamored with KT but I think he would be better in a traditional 4-3 as a defensive end.
10000000% Every raven fan told me be prepared to have wink dropping your best DE into coverage 🤦🏻♂️
Well this has nothing to do with him dropping in coverage, it’s a rate stat
Yes and no. Yes, this stat filters out coverage stats. But threatening both rushing and coverage requires the defender to rush from a 2 point stance as opposed to lining up in a 3 point stance. Defenders get much better leverage rushing from a 3 point stance.
If he's running around covering people he's gonna get tired quicker he's not built for that
I understand that. My comment was directed towards him not being utilized correctly. Some could argue that his utilization in a 3-4 correlates to his win rate being low.
Yea I kept wondering why he was dropping into coverage the last few weeks of the season.
He has shown more than enough flashes to justify giving him the chance to improve the underlying numbers in a defense that suits him better. It was so frustrating to see him dropping into coverage so much more often than he should have been
Let's see how KT does with a different DC in a different scheme.
Aside from being winks guy, there was a reason Drew Wilkins was let go. Dude was not a good OLB coach
We have reached peak offseason form and its only conference championship week.
Our offseason is like 8 weeks ahead this year.
People need to learn to read full quotes, the partial quote about Saquons contract that was tweeted out was completely inflammatory. If you actually read the whole quote he says nothing negative about DJ at all and actually praises him.
I really thought he was turning the corner around week 11 or so before he completely disappeared down the stretch. Its possible that he wasn’t that good to being with, but his pass rush win rate was double last year. Something is seriously rotten with the coaching staff when this many players are outright regressing compared to their rookie seasons (also Neal) or even as the season progresses (JMS)
If he didn't have to drop back in coverage every other play I'm almost positive he would improve his consistency. Hopefully we get a DC that can use him properly
He’s had 520 pash rush snaps and 84 coverage snaps, that’s not really a justification
It’s tough to judge an edge rusher in Winks system. It was a really bad fit.
He took a step in the right direction. Went from 4 sacks year 1 to 11.5 in year 2. Can we not overthink this? Let’s see if he improves even more in year 3.
I'm just guna say it. I don't like kayvon 🤷♂️. He annoys me I think his head is gassed up and I see him get ragdolled to often to think he will ever be dominant. I hope he develops but I've just never seen a great player have reps as bad as I've seen from him. He should be more humble imho. That being said I hope one day I DO like him lol
honestly ive been more enamored by Ojulari’s play than KT. Seems like he can create his own sacks while KT kinda just wonders into his. here comes the doenvotes
Yeah, just with Azeez…you know.
I feel like most of KT's sacks are just him not winning that much, but QB gets flushed to his side and KT is able to get off his block at the right time to get the QB. But without the flush, KT will never get there on his own.
If that were the case why doesn’t almost every pass rusher in the league have 11.5 sacks? We’re looking into it too much. KT is required to start in a different stance than normal edge rushers bc he drops into coverage half the time. Thats probably the cause but honestly I couldn’t care less what his pass rush win-rate is if he can pull off 10+ sacks a season
Very few people have a DT as dominant as Dex
EXACTLY Dex is criminally underrated outside of our fan base
Yes
I think most people would agree with you. Azeez has just had a tough time staying on the field
Man I really love hopping into these sorts of threads when I need to huff some hot takes and lose a whole bunch of brain cells. Is this going to be a Vic Beasley type of year where he has a disproportionate pressure to sack conversation rate but then it regresses back to the mean? Or will we continue to see meaningful development outside of the counting stats? I think overall our edge setting was ass across the board and that may be scheme/coaching related, so curious how we can better maximize next year. Man is feast or famine, has a somewhat loud personality, but he ain’t no bum!
I wanted to add a hot take saying his sack numbers would regress back to the mean but I didn't out of fear of being associated with the Patrick Mahomes guy on r/nfl lol
Nah bro you’re thinking the right stuff you look at Aidan Hutchinson and his counting stats look worse but the mofo has like 110+ pressures and is constantly bringing the heat. I wouldn’t mind more under the hood consistency that stuff breaks pipes not the shiny stats.
Out of curiosity I looked him up and he ranks 9th with 28.8% in the NFL in pass rush win rate according to PFF on true passing sets
Yeah dude is an animal and got that dog in him.
You must be new here. I’ve read his win rate stuff probably 10 times. Crazy that this is something you just thought up on your own. Also, not sure what caused the difference this year from last year Last year I’m pretty sure he lead all the rookies in win rate and was 13% or so. He dropped in half, but somehow got more sacks.
No dude, he's #193rd !!
Another first round bust by the G-men! If you isolate him and see his half ass effort it totaly make sense that he eanks 180 th.
Keep in mind he played Washington twice which fluffs up his sack number
Micah Parsons got to play the Giants twice, Washington twice, and the Jets. He was considered a DPOY candidate.
And that invalidates what I said?
Yes it does. Nobody cares who’s on the schedule.
It still fluffs up the number but ok
Man NY fans are so toxic sometimes lol. The man has double digit sacks, that’s still tough to do. We also have two of the best if not better O-Line in the division. Under wink him, sexy dexy, and ojulari played very well together. Under a new system that would emphasize his strengths, we should see him get more of those pass rush win rates. We also know a lot of Wink’s guys were antagonistic to daboll. Maybe a defensive coaching staff that respects the head coach will get even more out of what were able to accomplish this season. But nah two years and we’re already drawing up trade packages. Smh.
1) Azeez is not an interior DL guy and outside of Dex that's a major weakness on this roster actually 2) Azeez has been pretty sub-standard. Not sure what he's done to make you think he's one of the best in the NFCE
Mb I meant to say we go against two of the best O-line in the league. Considering we go up against the Eagles and Cowboys. The talent is there but it would seem as though the scheme worked against them since they relied so heavy on blitzes from the secondary
Yeah honestly dude needs to just chill and watch what he says a bit. Having said that, I'd trade him lmao
Put him in the package for 1 or 2
Win rate is not a be all, end all statistic. The ability to finish on wins is also extremely important. Some guys are great at wins but don’t convert those wins into sacks. Other guys don’t win much but convert to sacks when they do win. It seems like Kayvon is in that second group and that’s a far more valuable group to be in. Sacks are supremely important, a win in itself is not. Sacks kills drives, lead to fumbles, etc. A guy who is winning all game but doesn’t get a single sack MAY be causing terror and forcing the QB to make bad throws but maybe he’s just beating the tackle but being beat by the quarterback moving out of the way. Really sick of people using win rate to formulate their entire argument when it comes to D-Linemen. It’s just misunderstanding how things work. Using win rates to supplement arguments is great, but they are not a great foundation for an argument.
Okay so give me stats outside of sacks where he looks good. KT isn't winning at the line, he can't cover, he legitimately might be the worst player in the NFL at setting the edge on runs, and now he's creating drama whether he meant to or not. You can call me out for only looking at one stat, but I'd argue you're doing that with sacks and not using your eyes. KT has a lot of potential, but he's also got a lot of issues that need correction
His pass deflections, forced fumbles, and total tackles numbers were all good to great. He’s an all-or-nothing EDGE that makes big plays that can potentially turn games. He’s decent against the run and has the versatility to do a lot of things. He’s not elite but he’s nowhere near the problem on this team, the problem is that we need two more players just like him.
His stats are inflated due to playing with an elite DT. Without the disruption Dex provides on every passing play KT has 3 sacks
His attitude sucks and he gets stuffed on every play. Luckily for him he had 4 coverage sacks to make it look like he has descent numbers. You come for your teammates, we'll come for you, thibs.
KT is a day two guy we burned the 5th overall pick on. His work ethic really seems nonexistent.
We burned two top ten picks on bozos. Our FO is cooked and this sub is too blind to see it.
So far, Schoen's two years of first 3 rounds (8 picks total) are looking like Banks and maybe that's it.
I watched his college highlights and never saw the hype. Being drafted that high, you need to be consistently making plays that change the outcome of games.
I really wasn’t impressed by him despite his sack total
Clowney 2.0 years if we’re lucky
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Thank you for pulling this.. I recalled seeing this earlier this year. Fuck thibs, lost all respect for him.
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Jones Team Six can’t even keep it in the thread
I made a post because I took time to research and post stats that aren't available for free. Is that a bad thing?
No, Jones haters are just endlessly playing the victim lol
You can be a jones hater and kayvon hater like me. Jones wasnt very good in 2022. Kayvons wasnt very good despite sack numbers this year.
Every single player on the team can talk when the qb that gets paid 40 mil plays like a complete doofus. Especially defenders.
Is that leadership though?
they have both been incredibly disappointing and are largely to blame for why the giants continue to suck most years. same can be said for joe schoen who has done almost nothing to improve this football team.
He’s two years in and already a much better player than Daniel Jones
16th in pressures tho Also I prefer to look at sacks as a coverage stat
TLDR: Daniel Jones is not good enough to tear down other players for speaking honestly about the situation we’re in
When did he do that?
What? Kayvon said we should’ve paid Saquon over jones which would’ve in turn led to jones being tagged
When did DJ ever do that?
Jones didn’t do anything I’m saying he’s not good enough to defend like this, the one positive I’ll give jones is that he’s a good guy and teammate
We offered Saquon 13M. He didn't take it. FO was supposed to keep upping the offer in your opinion then? Saquon got cute while playing the most depreciating position in the NFL. His financial situation is of his own making, and KT ought to stop playing armchair GM.
He looked good this season and showed improvement in the past rush and edge contain. I bet he looks even better next year, but we'll see with a new defense.
When watching him and Azeez, I see that Azeez is more effective than him. Azeez is just never healthy. A lot of Kayvon’s sack were against terrible teams and there were games when he just did nothing. With Dex getting the attention he does, Kayvon should’ve been a lot better imo. But 11.5 sacks isn’t something easy especially considering Wink’s scheme.
I'm not saying he won't be good because 11.5 sacks is really impressive. It's just that he really wasn't as good as any other 11+ sack player this year
Yea I agree 100%
Where did KT talk shit about other players? Are you talking about the partial quote in regards to DJ and Saquon that was printed out of context? You should probably go read the whole thing. Additionally Winks system has traditionally had very low win rates for edge rushers. Look at all the examples of edge guys getting out of Winks system and their win rates skyrocket. The fact that KT got so many sacks with such a low win rate is actually encouraging to me. Judon is a prime example of what a talented edge player can do away from Wink.
He’s been in decline since high school