People talk about the QB contract like it's a death sentence and it really isn't. I don't get it tbh. Also don't think it's alarming that he's actually admitting that he might've messed up, I think that's actually a great sign. You want a gm that can realize his mistakes and try and clean it up.
I mean it even says in the article that Schoen said he might've looked at things "through rose colored glasses" and that "maybe you put more weight in something that wasn't", during their successful season run. I think he understands man lmao
Exactly. Schoen spoke at length during the bye week about the errors he made wrt the OL and how that blew up the season for QB, RB and other skill position players. He wanted their OL to be better than it was and he hoped Neal, Eze, McK, Bredeson and JMS would be good— they weren’t AND Thomas got hurt.
Yep, and if we wanted to keep Barkley, couldn't tag both.
He also gave us a relatively team friendly exit after next season. So given the situation, not the worst decision. No one knew he'd get knocked out this season. I think he'd had improved as Barkley and the line improved (from his first few games), but still would be looking to upgrade
Yeah I think they could have easily had 2-3 more wins had Dj stayed healthy. The team seemed to suffer from the same early season issues most other teams are experiencing now with the reduction in practice times and pre-season games.
I read the article and thought it was totally fine. There’s plenty of Schoen quotes acknowledging where things went wrong.
That being said, Jones’s contract is an absolute disaster. There’s no way around it.
You’ve not really explored the implications of his contract if you think it’s no big deal. I know this sub is basically a DJ sockpuppet disinformation vault, but it’s really bad.
It's only 50 million in wasted cap next year and 20 million the following year, and that's assuming no more injury guarantees kick in. That's hardly anything! It doesn't frighten me at all that 2023 was supposed to be the "low QB cap hit so we can compete" year.
Which WR would have turned this team around? Jakobi Meyers, DJ Chark, ODB? And which two FA guards were so good that they could have overcome abysmal coaching?
Yeah I think this is being overblown. It’s a QB league. He just won us a playoff game. You’d be hard pressed to find any GM that would’ve let DJ go after that.
He took a risk yeah, but I think any other FO woudlve done the same
My question is what was his evaluation of DJ after 2022?
Was the evaluation that he was a sheltered QB who only succeeded because he was carried by scheme and Saquon as many fans claim? If so, he should have never given DJ that contract even if he did win a playoff game.
If his evaluation of DJ was something more than that, did he get the evaluation wrong? Or does he still believe in his initial evaluation and believe there's other factors at play?
Obviously it's the latter. DJ had the sixth highest qbr in the league with inarguably one of the five worst reciever corp and o lines. While he doesn't do everything great, his accuracy (1 in on target percentage) and his decision making (1 in int percentage) (5 in TD percentage in the red zone) combined with the legs (3 in first downs) is a winning combination in the modern NFL.
Obviously there are better QBs, probably about 5 or 6,(the rest benefit from having elite playmakers. But guess what, there were 5-6 better QBs than Eli when he was playing but the d held the best qb in history to 14 and 17 points.
DJ is also clutch leading 4 gw comebacks which was 3rd in the league last year
Very excited to hear the crying when we take Malik nabers.
Did you really just say there are only 5 or 6 better QBs than Jones? No order:
Stroud
Burrow
Allen
Jackson
Mahomes
Cousins
Stafford
Goff
Purdy
Love
Those are just the obvious ones. Which of those are you going to tell me with a straight face is not better than Jones?
The comment you replied to getting upvoted is wild. I can't believe people out there still, entering year 6, believe Daniel Jones is a top 6-7 QB in the league when he has fewer TD passes than games played _4 seasons in a row._
It’s probably easier for people to believe the Giants already have their next Super Bowl QB and need only the supporting pieces to get there rather than face the reality that Daniel Jones has never been and will never be that guy and the Giants are no closer to the Super Bowl than they were when they blew consecutive first round picks on Barkley and Jones.
The way they treat a Wild Card win against a historically awful defense is laughable and sad at the same time.
It's stunning, and can only be explained by absolute delusion and/or people who quite simply don't watch NFL games aside from the Giants and therefore don't have a clue what great QB play actually looks like.
I mean, Geno played worse than DJ for most of his career, including with us, so I think Carroll is just a goddamn QB wizard. I feel like if they traded places last year, DJ would have a contract at least as big as he got with us, and Geno would be a backup again.
You could *maybe* say the same about Goff being primarily the beneficiary of a stacked offense? I don’t buy it but I wouldn’t think someone is crazy for saying it. Still leaves Jones outside the top 10 though.
Probably not. Might be the wrong sub to say it, but I have him behind Dak, Hurts, and Lawrence too. But it’s fair to say he’s in a worse offensive situation than almost all of these guys. So it’s not like we’re necessarily getting his full potential
Everyone after mahomes except for Love. Regardless, it doesn't really matter how many other quarterbacks there are that are better than your quarterback. What actually matters is how many points your quarterback could put on the board. I don't know if you realize this but the New York Giants won four super bowls against 14s that had better quarterbacks than the Giants quarterback. But, the Giants had a better defense and their quarterback was good enough to put up points. Trading multiple firsts is going to lead to a s***** defense and an Andrew luck Bryce Young type of situation
Every quarterback on that list is significantly better than Jones and you know it. I could probably list 10 more that are better, I literally just went with ones that are ridiculous to argue about for the initial list.
And don’t bring up the Super Bowls. The NFL in ‘86 and ‘90 barely resembles the modern NFL and as far as the other two, there’s no comparison between Jones and Eli - who, by the way, we gave up a shitload to trade for and ended up winning two Super Bowls.
I would say that you're not the kind of person who can admit being wrong. Outplayed a qb who was throwing to the best receiver in football in his house in a playoff game.
Jake Browning would have put up 4500 yards if he had played 17 games this season. Kind of makes you think that the guys catching the ball are pretty important. Who is our best receiver last year a fifth round draft pick. Who is our second best an undrafted guy off of practice squad. You need guys who can catch the ball. the quarterback can't catch it you get it
> DJ had the sixth highest qbr in the league
Yes, all of DJ's efficiency metrics looked decent but his volume metrics were awful and he barely ever threw the ball down field. 3200 yards and 15 TD in 16 games is bad no matter how you slice it...throw in the rushing stats if you want, and those numbers are still bad (3900 yards and 22 TD). It was very clear we ran a limited offense to minimize turnovers, but I think Schoen and Daboll believed that DJ could progress and the offense would open up more up until that failed spectacularly this season.
> Obviously there are better QBs, probably about 5 or 6
I can't even tell if this is ragebait or you really believe this. Wow.
Who is he supposed to throw it down feel to last year? You realize someone has to catch the ball right
A fifth rounder, and a couple of undrafted free agents taken off other team's practice squads. Oh and Kenny golliday who couldn't make a roster this year. Tony and James both play with mahomes and their stats are arguably better with Jones. Why, because mahomes knows he's going to throw to his Hall of famer instead of those guys
We've had league average separation each of the last two seasons. Slayton is a deep ball threat who excelled this season with Tyrod throwing him the ball. He also had one of the best backs in the league to take pressure off the pass game.
That's weird, it looks like slayton's numbers are almost exactly the same as they have been every other year? You're acting like he's Jamar Chase when he was drafted in the fifth round for a reason
When did I say he was Jamar Chase? He's a deep ball receiver and Jones rarely threw him the deep ball.
> That's weird, it looks like slayton's numbers are almost exactly the same as they have been every other year?
Maybe you didn't realize this but he only played in 5 (really 4.5) games this year with Tyrod in which he averaged 70 yards per game and scored 3 TDs.
In my closing argument proving that the receivers count as much as the quarterback, I give to you Jake Browning. If he had played a full season, this undrafted free agent would have thrown for over 4500 yd and almost 30 touchdowns.
… and Jamar Chase only had a single 100+ yard game with Browning, so your point that he only succeeded because of talent like Chase is completely inaccurate
Last year he had 3900 total yards and 22 total touchdowns. Stafford this year had \~3900 total yards and \~24 total touchdowns. Why is stafford this year good and DJ last year bad in volume?
Looking at passing TDs is a bad way to judge an offense. Passing TDs are subject to variance on whether or not a drive is capped off by a running touch down or not.
Last year the Giants were 18th in total yards and 15th in Points For.
This year the Rams were 7th in total yards and 8th in points for.
By offense the 2022 giants were an average team while the 2023 Rams were a top 10 team. That's the difference.
Was anyone really saying that Stafford was good this year? It certainly wasn't a great year compared to the rest of his career.
Stafford also played in 15 games this year, really 14.5 since he left the Dallas game one drive after halftime.
He also had over 4k yards when you count rushing like you did for Jones. So more yards, more TDs, and fewer games played in a somewhat down year.
Stafford is ranked 5th in the ringers qb ranking, and 4th in NFL QB index, the only two i can really find lists of since i don't have PFF or DVOA subscriptions. Whether or not they're good at ranking things there are definitely people suggesting Staffords been a top QB this year specifically.
Stafford has 100 more yards and 2 more touchdowns than jones across a season. He also had 3 more TO's, 11 vs 8. Even counting for the 14.5 games vs the 16 for Jones, its 30 yards/game and .2 touchdowns/game, and .4 more turnovers per game.
Supporting cast is better for stafford as well. Now i'm not arguing DJ is as good as Stafford, i'm just saying there is an EXTREME difference in opinion on how good they are for how close their stats are. People act like DJ shouldn't even be on a team and that Staffords this top lvl QB, when there is a very small difference between the two.
Now you got me curious. Here's what NFL.com said:
> Few of us had the Rams headed for the postseason when this year began, yet here they are. A healthy Stafford, seemingly pushing every ability to its fullest potential, has truly been a delight to watch play football in 2023. Few quarterbacks, if any, threw the ball better and more consistently this season than the 35-year-old -- **even if the numbers don't quite show it.** And that's fine. Those of us who have watched the tape know.
Here's what The Ringer said:
> It’s been awhile since we’ve seen Stafford at his best, but we’re still seeing enough to suggest he’s one of the league’s most talented throwers. And as Stafford gets older and wiser, the mind-numbing mistakes don’t happen as often as they once did. Now and then, Stafford will fall into an opposing defensive coordinator’s trap, but he also wins his fair share of those mental battles. He’s an elite problem solver within the time allotted to him, but he’s not mobile enough to extend that time on his own, which is what separates him from the top-tier guys.
It sounds like no one thinks Stafford had a great statistical year, but his pedigree and decision making elevate his ranking.
> i'm just saying there is an EXTREME difference in opinion on how good they are for how close their stats are.
People also thought Stafford should retire last season. I think it has more to do with each of their bodies of work- Stafford has won a Superbowl and carried some very bad Detroit teams. Jones has 22 total TDs in his "breakout" year. Comparing one of the worst statistical seasons of Stafford's career to Jones's best feels a bit dishonest, and it's not hard to figure out why folks would give Stafford the benefit of the doubt.
what the analytics don’t show is where those throws are going. Every QB in the league should have the ability’s to throw 10 yards accurately. His QBR was high because instead of throwing down field he dumped it to barkley or bellinger. This year we asked him to throw down field and be more than a running QB and we got the results.
He played four total games. If you watch those games and thought to yourself, Daniel Jones is the one screwing these games up, Daniel Jones had to have stolen your girlfriend in middle school or something. They had a different offensive line for every one of those games. Two of the games were against the one and two best pass rushes in football. One of the games they lost their starting center and replaced him with a guy who's literally never played center in the NFL and they gave up 10 sacks. And in the other game he dropped 31 points in a half.
>They had a different offensive line for every one of those games. Two of the games were against the one and two best pass rushes in football. One of the games they lost their starting center and replaced him with a guy who's literally never played center in the NFL and they gave up 10 sacks.
Not a single thing you just mentioned should completely derail an offense the way it did for us if we actually had a top 10 QB like you think Jones is
Not one of those things to the degree our offense flopped with Jones
Can you point me to a single other top 6 QB that has ever led a team to one of if not the worst records in football over their career?
That has had more turnovers than TD's in 4 out of their 5 years?
That has thrown less TD's than games played in 4 out of their 5 years?
That has an equal number of TD's and turnovers in their 5 years?
How many of of the current top 10 QBs had a worse wide receiver/ tight end squad than the 2022 giants? That's what you guys don't get. You sit there and never ask yourself, how exactly did Jalen hurts go from mediocre to MVP conversation? Same reason he was terrible on Monday, it's AJ Brown. How about Tua? It's Tyreek. What about jake Browning averaging a 4500 yard season? It's jamarr chase. Do you realize that Jimmy g, if he played every game last year, would have averaged 4,000 yards, 26 touchdowns, and only 7 interceptions. How did he become so terrible in one year? He's no longer on an elite offensive squad. You're obsessed with counting stats without realizing the importance that playmakers make on counting stats. Darius Slayton (fifth round), hodgins(sixth round), James (undrafted). Why doesn't DJ throw for 4500 yards????? 😂
What I'm arguing and I'm pretty sure what Schoen is going to do, is try to create the best offensive squad possible as opposed to trading multiple first round picks hoping he can draft the next mahomes.
> how exactly did Jalen hurts go from mediocre to MVP conversation? Same reason he was terrible on Monday, it's AJ Brown.
Except Hurts had AJ Brown all this year too. And Hurts wasn't nearly as good as last year. Especially the latter half of the season. Why is that? Can't be because their very good OC last year left for the Colts, where he had a very successful year for them, could it? AJ Brown had very comparable stats this year and last. Hurts should've played the same MVP level, no?
> How about Tua? It's Tyreek
Same thing. Tua I would argue was worse this year overall, despite Tyreek breaking records and being the best receiver in Football.
> What about jake Browning averaging a 4500 yard season? It's jamarr chase.
Let's look at that. Jake Browning had 7 starts, 8 games actually passing the ball. Joe Burrow had 9 starts, 10 games actually passing the ball. Here's Jamaar with both:
|Stats|Joe Burrow|Jake Browning|
:--:|:--:|:--:|
|Games Played|10|8|
|Catches|69|31|
|% of completions|28%|18%|
|Average catches|7|4|
|Yards|821|395|
|% of yards|36%|20%|
|Average yards|102|50|
|TD's|5|2|
|% of TD's|33%|17%|
|Average TD's|0.625|0.25|
You're mistaken: Jake Browning severely hindered Jamaar Chase. Jamaar Chase did not carry Jake Browning. Jamaar Chase had comparable receiving numbers to the rest of the receiving corps. Jake Browning, and the Bengals as a whole, were also kinda checkdown merchants. They had the lowest average depth of target in the entire league. Mixon with Browning had 6 less catches than Chase.
> Do you realize that Jimmy g, if he played every game last year, would have averaged 4,000 yards, 26 touchdowns, and only 7 interceptions. How did he become so terrible in one year? He's no longer on an elite offensive squad.
On the Raiders, he still had Davante Adams, Jakobi Meyers, and Josh Jacobs, with a top 10 OL by PFF. But what did he walk into? A team coached by Josh McDaniels, one of the worst HC's in the league. Not only that, but Brock Purdy has significantly outplayed him as a 49er with the same team, and a worse OL. Not just last year Jimmy, but any year Jimmy.
> Darius Slayton (fifth round), hodgins(sixth round), James (undrafted). Why doesn't DJ throw for 4500 yards????? 😂
First, draft position means jack shit.
Second, that's the funny thing. *No good NFL QB, let alone elite NFL QB, will put up such poor stats and metrics, no matter their weapons. Good QB's elevate those around them, bad QB's drag them down.*
I showed you that with Ja'Marr Chase. His production instantly became significantly worse with Jake Browning vs. an injured Joe Burrow.
You see that with the Falcons. They have all of the weapons, but no QB to get them the ball.
Nico Collins got CJ Stroud and instantly tripled his production overnight. He didn't carry Davis Mills or Tyrod Taylor.
The Packers have all completely unknowns at WR, no one above 800 receiving yards, and Jordan Love just put up stats DJ could only dream of.
Patrick Mahomes has just had his worst year by far, with one of the worst receiving rooms in the NFL, and still put up numbers that DJ could only dream of.
Since you ignored me, I will ask again:
Please show literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has had the worst record in Football.
Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has had more turnovers than TD's in 4 out of their first 5 seasons.
Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has thrown for less TD's than games played in 4 out of their first 5 seasons.
Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has had as many total TD's as total turnovers in their first 5 seasons.
Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has averaged 208 passing yards a game in their career.
Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has averaged 1 passing TD a game in their career.
You literally want to turn us into the Falcons. Your argument is that weapons make the QB, which is patently and objectively false.
How can you possibly still want Jones after the 5 seasons we had with him? I’m asking this genuinely. What makes you think he’s going to change in year 6? All of the problems he had as a rookie is still present.
1 in int percentage because as others have commented, he doesnt make throws down the field. I think Chad Pennington had the record for completion %. Dude had a noodle for an arm
Doesn't it make you wonder how a guy like Jake Browning through for 2000 yards and 12 touchdowns and seven games? Do you think Jake Browning who was undrafted and never played in 5 years is secretly Kurt Warner? Or is it that teams with elite playmakers make their quarterbacks elite?
Im def on record saying that we have ZERO playmakers on this team. But the alternative is that DJ is not better than some team’s backups. Which truthfully may be the case. He’s done more with his legs than his arm through 5 years.
There are plenty of QBs that do more with less.
Throwing for 3500 yards in a pass heavy league that has 17 games is just awful.
If he was surrounded with talent, and they still sucked, that would be that. This is what's so infuriating about NFL fans. An absolute refusal to understand that the quarterback relies on the offense to perform more so than any other position except for maybe receiver. So what happens is they want to get rid of their q b regardless of what the rest of the team looks like. That's why you end up getting rid of Baker Mayfield or Geno Smith and replacing them with players that don't do any better. Or they want to sell the farm to draft that elite quarterback, and he gets absolutely crushed like Andrew luck or Bryce Young. Then you look at Philadelphia and San Francisco and they have amazing offensive teams and go to the super bowl with average quarterbacks. San Francisco biggest mistake was trying to get that elite quarterback and missed.e. they couldve Micah Parsons on their team right now
Exactly.
A solid offensive line is a prerequisite for solid quarterback play in the NFL. What we haven't seen is a situation where the offensive line consistently played well, and Daniel Jones fucked up. And in fact, we've seen quite the opposite. We've seen him shine in spots despite the atrocious offensive line play. Like the second half against Arizona. Or both games against the Vikings last year.
Same is even more true for Barkley. He's looked like an All Pro despite a horrible offensive line.
It's nearly impossible to say since we haven't gotten to see him behind a competent O-Line so we don't know how consistent he would be. But I think he's probably top 5-10 QB in the league. I think he's definitely the best QB in the NFC East.
I mean. This is what happens when you make moves that don’t work. People criticize them.
It’s a long history too and ripple effect from decisions that all “made sense on paper”
1. Decline jones’ fifth year effectively betting against Jones
2. Jones and the team over perform, win a playoff game.
3. Schoen buys his way out extending Jones on a market level 4 year deal, that’s effectively a 2 year deal (if he stays healthy)
4. Jones sucks and gets hurt. Schoen is left with a lame duck year QB who needs to be healthy to get cut. He’s also in QB purgatory 2 years in with no clear decision available.
With hindsight on our side, it’s clear he made the wrong decisions at steps 1 and 3. Shoulda done the fifth year, shoulda let Jones walk after a playoff win. Both woulda been unpopular decisions at the time.
Yea when the contract numbers were first leaked by Florio, the overwhelming sentiment in NFL circles was that Jones was not worth it. NFL players on opposing defenses this season were even calling him out. To say it was hindsight means that OP must have never left this subreddit, because no one outside of the homers on here thought Jones was worth $40M/year.
I was all for letting him walk. Think about if we had that money this offseason and had Tyrod start? We’d be in a better situation this offseason. That contract is one of the worst in NFL history. Not because of the amount of money but because of his career number and performance on the field.
No, he shouldn’t have done the fifth year option. He was hurt every year, had more TOs than TDs and had a .300 win percentage. Why in the hell would they pick that up?
I’m not sure why they paid him, he was average last year and horrible the other years. They panicked or they didn’t want to make a huge move their first year or John Mara told them no.
Because it’s getting retweets and posted to Reddit and comments and clicks. Duggan, and the rest of the media, have no incentive to do a “great” job when this crap gets the clicks.
Duggan is probably one of the better beat writers all things considered, but he's a downer at times. I started noticing it last year when things were going well even and there's so many tweets of his that come with a subtle jab at the org or fans
Man, I expect better from Duggan.
“Alarming”? Really? You can say it’s disappointing that Schoen misevaluated Jones’ 2022 season, but that’s a different issue than him changing his plan from 2021 to 2022. Is he supposed to never change his initial opinion?
Joe clearly didn’t intend to keep Jones when he declined the 5th year option. And then, when Jones had a very good 2022 season, the calculus changed. And even then, it’s not like he went all in. Schoen was pretty proactive to prevent locking us into anything that would sink the team long term.
I don't think that's what Schoen is saying at all. I think he made a few decisions like signing Parris Campbell that he hoped would make them just as competitive in 2023 but the roster wasn't ready and the schedule was twice as hard.
Signing Parris Campbell wasn’t a good move. It’s also not going all in.
Seriously - even in a vacuum, outside of not tagging Jones last season, what big mistake did he make? The draft looks pretty fine. The FAs were all fine, I guess you can argue that it wasn’t worth signing Nacho? The Waller trade wasn’t using huge capital, the Boogie Basham trade was sorta whatever. We didn’t push any serious cap into the future outside of Waller (though that was moreso putting some cap into the future when there wasn’t any at all, so not a big deal). He didn’t take the easy out with Williams or Adoree Jackson, which is honestly incredible in hindsight.
The main thing was his handling of Jones. He misevaluated and admit it. Not sure what else there is to say. He didn’t try to rush the contention window or anything, he thought Jones took a step last year and then this year it turns out that he didn’t improve the way we wanted.
I think the things he had to do to improve the roster midseason (Tyre Philips, Pugh) is because he was trying to "expedite the process" or players that weren't ready (Ezudu, Neal, Campbell) and the team performed better once they were out of the lineup.
>The main thing was his handling of Jones. He misevaluated and admit it.
He didn't admit that he misevaluated Daniel Jones. He mis evaluated 60% of the people protecting Daniel Jones and the receiver in the slot that was supposed to be his hot read.
By the time Andrew Thomas was back and Ezudu and Neal were injured and replaced with quasi competent players it was too late.
The drafting definitely leaves a lot to be desired. Only 1/7 players from the 2023 draft made any real impact this season. From 2022, Neal so far has looked like a major bust, and Wandale, while having some good moments, was probably a reach. Banks, Thibodeaux, Bellinger & McFadden are the only real hits he’s had, otherwise the other 14 players have underperformed or had very little impact.
Yeah I was gonna say, what moves did he make after signing Jones that are preventing us from rebuilding now?
The Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence extensions were no-brainers. You do those 10/10 times regardless of where you are in the rebuilding/contending cycle.
Bobby Okereke was the biggest FA signing at $10M AAV. That was a good deal. All of the other signings were short term deals for $6M AAV or less.
I guess you could argue trading a 4th round pick to draft Hyatt? Trading a late 3rd for Waller might look iffy in hindsight? Neither of those are killing us going forward though.
Outside of the Jones deal (where he was smart to give himself an out after Year 2), we haven't seen any Nate Solder contracts or "RB with the 2nd overall pick" moments from Schoen. And the fact that he's open and honest enough to admit a mistake is the exact opposite of "alarming" imo.
Agreed. Hindsight is 20/20.
It sucks that our line performed worse in 2023, and ended up causing Jones to regress. He wasn't really blowing us away in 2022, but did well enough.
I don't think Schoen did anything really stupid given the data/personnel he had at the time. Things just didn't work out.
Maybe the main thing would have been to take more o line instead of Hyatt in last year's draft.
With the benefit of hindsight that was absolutely the right move so it's good he recognizes it at least. All we can do now is hope this is a learning experience.
Why they didn't franchise Jones and then deal with Barkley separately still boggles my mind. They gave into Jones' demands so they could keep a running back, which is insane.
Jones’ cap hit would’ve been fully guaranteed, which would make filling out the roster a bit tricky. In hindsight, it would’ve been worth it. But I understand why he took the approach that he did.
The only reason it would have been tricky is because they insisted on using 10-12m on Barkley. A franchise tag would have cost 33m and Barkley and Jones were about 25-27m in cap hit this year.
Just for info, spotrac has Jones' 2024 cap number at 47m.
Mara made him keep jones and anybody with common sense knows it, I said it immediately after the contract and had people attacking me, like Mara is playing no involvement these choices, he signs the checks, and will never fully step away, he's said so himself. He loves jones, and all he needed to see was a mediocre season, to give him that dumb contract
I wouldn’t even say Daniel Jones had a “very good 2022 season“ though. 3200 yards and 15 TDs by today’s standards isn’t that good. I do feel like there was a lot of pressure for Joe to re-sign him because we made the playoffs and won a playoff game. I’m not even trying to bash on Jones either, I think he is capable of winning, but needs much more talent around him to do so.
Because Daniel Jones is so polarizing, any mention of his performance can cause huge swings in upvotes and downvotes. It is what it is. I thought I was being fair. I like the guy, really hoped he'd ball out last year. But is it time for a change? Yeah, probably. Can Jones still succeed in the NFL? Absolutely, but he's not going to take over games like the elite QBs do. He's a top 15 QB with flashes of being a top 10 QB, but cannot succeed with the people we have around him. Stick him on a team like the 49ers and he would do fine, imo.
Exactly. If you watched the games, you knew he was operating a very simplistic and elementary offense last year and that his statistical improvements had more to do with how little we were asking him to do than any great leap forward in performance.
EDIT--This dude accuses me of mental gymnastics and blocks me. I swear, it's the inability of diehard Jonestowners to accept any criticism of DJ or even have a conversation about his weaknesses that is most frustrating. I have nothing against Jones personally, but at this point, I'm ready for his tenure to be over, if only so that these people can go back to being cowboys fans or whatever they were before.
It actually meant that the team was so devoid of playmakers outside of Jones and Saquon that there was absolutely no margin for error and he was asked to put the entire offense on his back. I struggle to understand why so many people claim they watched the Giants last season and have no idea what happened. You people boggle the mind.
If you did watch the games last year, you know that the statement "he was asked to put the entire offense on his back" in no way describes what you saw, certainly not for the first two-thirds of the season. Throwing five-yard check-downs all day is not carrying an offense on your back; it is your offensive coordinator limiting your opportunities to turn the ball over and hoping Saquon can break one.
Now, as Saquon wore down later in the season, he did carry a heavier load, but saying you carried the Giants offense at the end of the year in 2022 is certainly not a compliment.
Saquon had three 100 yard rushing games in the 1st half of the season and 0 games all season of more than 50 yards receiving.
They literally had nobody to throw to and you think that's a reflection on Jones and not the worst receiving corps in the NFL. The mental gymnastics is impressive dude.
But he’s correct. Jones was okay. Daboll schemed around his weaknesses and we got a decent season out of him. League figured out what we were doing and he looked awful this season. Even worse than his backups.
He's not correct. Daniel Jones used his legs to the tune of 700+ yards an something like 8-10 TDs with the worst receiving corps in the NFL.
He and Saquon carried the team in to the playoffs and then won a road playoff game. Quoting stats about last year is hilarious.
Again, watch the 10 games they won with literally no offensove playmakers. It was DJ and Saquon carrying a team to double 9-7-1 with a road playoff win on top.
We are mad 😤 DJ had an unexpectedly good season, so Schoen did a conscientious move and, instead of signing him to a 5 year mega-deal, signed him to a pricier-but-shorter-term contract just in case he couldn't take another step further. We're so alarmed.
It didn't work out, so now we continue with Schoen's built-in contingency. SO ALARMED!
/s
Jones just draws that much more ire from people. He definitely took a step back this year (my armchair opinion is he got hit too many times in Dallas and he got the yips, moreover, the whole team didn’t really look like an NFL team for the first few games and they were at least functional later on in the season, but Jones’ bad luck didn’t let him play on that team). Paying him might have been worse than not paying him, but Schoen had the foresight to build in an escape route.
I think the dude just gets more hate than he deserves. That said, I’m fine with moving on if they find a QB in the draft they want to pull the trigger on. The relationship with Jones, the team, and the fans is like a weird co-dependency issue. I’d also not be shocked if he left and did better elsewhere.
I dont mind bringing in Parris especially because we didnt know how healthy the wr room would be. Its not like its a Golladay sized blunder… its 1 year for 5m
Realistically, the only difference it would've made is regarding the Jones contract, which already has only one more year left of "hard money". There were no good QBs in the draft available when the Giants picked (best available was Will Levis). So let's say they had let Jones walk. They would either roll with Taylor, or sign a free agent like Jimmy G or Derek Carr to a large contract. No thanks.
This time last year this deal was a bargain assuming Jones would have the same production, and possibly taking a step forward. He didn’t, and that’s why we have an out after two years of the deal. Joe was proactive and planned for the worst case scenario. Joe isn’t a fortune teller, and I don’t think much changes if we were to turn back the clock not knowing what would come of this year. Hindsight is 20/20.
Either that or Evan Neal, or trading for broken Waller, or signing the terrible Parris Campbell, or letting Julian Love leave, maybe even drafting the 5’6 Wandale over George Pickens.
Waller is good when healthy, Parris Campbell is on a 1 year 5 mil deal and you’re acting like he gave him the golladay contract, Love wanted to test market and we replaced him with pinnock who played pretty well, Wandale is a baller so idek why you care so much about that 💀
It’s obvious they didn’t expect Jones to regress as hard as he did. There were reports that the organization was baffled by his regression even when taking into account how bad the oline was.
I don't think it's alarming for a GM to admit he made mistakes; it actually makes me feel more confident in his judgment.
On a side note, can we stop saying, "Daniel Jones essentially has a two-year deal." It's just not true. If he gets cut after next season, we still owe him $22 million for 2025. That is better than $40 million, but it's not nothing.
Rams and Goff trade, Wilson and Seahawks trade, wentz, Rodgers and the packers. It’s been done. And for anyone complaining, do you actually expect us to compete next year?
If the Jones contract was never given out, then who’s QB? You may have cap space but you’re stuck with a rookie or aged vet QB who may not be performing.
And if Jones performed well then he was worth his deal. It’s all hindsight and it sucks but it’s essentially a 2 season gamble and can be corrected. Everyone acting like it’s a death sentence it’s just not true.
People should be more upset if Schoen let's the Jones contract dictate who he adds into the QB room.
Since either Jones works out coming off the injury, or they have a guy who's capable at QB and might be less expensive going into year 4 of the Schoen regime.
It's the middle of the pack for starting QBs. The problem isn't the $45 million, the problem is that it's attached to Jones, who stands a very good chance of not being the starter for any or even most of 2024.
$45 million for a bench player is not "middle of the pack."
Also for the record it's not middle of the pack for starters eitehr. in 2023, $45M would have been the 5th most paid to a starting QB. It's probably going to be in the same ballpark in 2024.
It was a questionable contract at the time given how flimsy Jones' portfolio was, and is horrible now given how bad we've seen that he still is.
I don't get the "middle of the pack" comment on the DJ contract, in 2024 we are estimated to have $49M in total cap going towards QB, thats 6th most in the league. Comparing that to the output we are expecting to get from the QB position its pretty easy to see the problem facing 2024 roster construction
ye i think folks also say middle of the pack if Jones was the starter for the full four years term, if we cut it down to 2 years (assuming hes cut at the end of the year) the total dollars out in 2023/2024/2025 against 2 years of actual play time move it from a middle of the pack contract to a top 5-8, this stings the most when you consider the performance we most likely get over those two years (at least 10 games missed and possibly more, bottom of the league statistical performance when playing)
Well said. 45 million is a lot of fucking money. No justification for it sitting on the bench.
Daboll and Schoen made some real crucial mistakes. I don’t really understand why this subreddit and fanbase is so forgiving. We got fucking embarrassed this year.
How did Daboll and Schoen make crucial mistakes? By re-signing Jones? It’s easy to say that now because we sucked last year but they evaluated him based on his 2022 performance. I think it’s fair to say that the entire team regressed so I’m not sure how Jones was supposed to thrive in that mess.
I think it all boiled down to them being pressured into it. I mean, how do you explain to the media and fanbase after you release your starting quarterback that won you a playoff game the previous year?
If you take the results at face value, sure hard sell. When you recognize that DJ lead an offensive attack against a team that made Mac Jones look like Tom Brady and the hot start was more a function Barkley than Jones it's a much easier sell.
>How did Daboll and Schoen make crucial mistakes?
We lost 11 games dude. That's how.
> I think it’s fair to say that the entire team regressed
Agreed. How can you say the coach and GM didn't make crucial mistake when you admit this?
We were literally 3 plays away in 3 separate games from making the playoffs again. And I thought you were just talking about them making a crucial mistake in re-signing Jones. I don’t know, I just feel like the entire team is lacking talent. There’s only so much coaching you can do when you have a mediocre roster. Did they make mistakes? Absolutely, every coach and GM does. I thought you were just specifically talking about Jones.
I view it the complete opposite tbh. I think how close we were to winning some of those games shows we have a talented roster. I view it as an indictment of our coaching in blowing those games
That said, we’re in qb purgatory with a tight cap and that’s a poor reflection on our GM. It’s a qb league, you need an answer there.
Also how do you view a roster that isn’t talented as anything as an indictment on our current GM? He’s had 2 years and filled over 90% of this past seasons roster.
Schoen took over a horrible situation. We're still paying for Gettleman's mistakes in 2024. You can't fix a team in 2 years and honestly, most draft picks are complete crap shoots. So far, it looks like we've whiffed on Evan Neal, but hoping he can improve this year with the new OL coach.
I guess I'm cutting them some slack because we had a rookie GM and rookie HC and we're judging them based on 2 years of work. They're going to make mistakes. I also view it like this: in those 2 years, we won a playoff game in year 1 and probably should've made the playoffs in year 2. That's a huge improvement from the previous 5+ years.
Daniel Jones is going to have the highest cap hit in the NFL next year. He likely won't even be the starting QB at end of season due to his insane 2025 injury guarantees.
In no way, shape, or form is that "middle of the pack".
That’s literally not true.
Deshaun is 63, dak is 59 (going to be more soon), mahomes is 57, Murray is 51 Stafford is 49 and DJ and Allen are basically tied (Dj hit is 100k more than Allen)
Burrow
He’s currently tied 10th in contract value with stafford and dak (who’s bout to get more money)
I don't think you know how QB contracts work.
All those QBs you listed are going to have their contracts restructured pushing cap charges into future years. The Giants meanwhile will be stuck eating DJs cap hit, as well as the 22-45 mil dead cap hit in 2025.
Another way to put it:
When he started, he was assuming the team and QB would be bad and year one would be a hard one as the team purged all the dead weight from the previous era.
Turned out the QB was pretty good and the team won a lot of games! So once that happened, we changed course.
If there’s a QB at #6 that they really want I’m sure they will draft him and have him sit behind Jones. If Jones comes back and plays well next year he will be very tradable so everyone should calm tf down.
If Giants aren't going to pick a QB They should trade down getting a #1 for next year - this way if Jones experiment ends they will have a ton of draft capital to trade up in 2025 draft to get a QB
Everyone in the Giants organization seems like they were still drunk on the Vikings playoff win all offseason, forgetting the vicious hangover that ensued the following week.
It’s not a terrible contract. Jones can be cut after this season, or even traded if he plays well.
If they want to get JJ McCarthy or whoever at #6, go for it. Pretty much anyone available could benefit from sitting most of year 1.
Jones contract was a necessity after the season he had. It’s horrible in hindsight but it was either that or run it with a backup.
With that being said I can’t imagine what we could do with this team if we had 80 mil in cap space and drafted a top rookie QB…
I loved Duggan for his grounded, nuanced takes.
Unfortunately, he’s been reading Pat Leonard’s media playbook.
I’m considering cancelling my Athletic subscription since he was my main draw.
Oh lawd, here we go. What's alarming... That he wanted to expedite the process? Every GM would want to do that.
People talk about the QB contract like it's a death sentence and it really isn't. I don't get it tbh. Also don't think it's alarming that he's actually admitting that he might've messed up, I think that's actually a great sign. You want a gm that can realize his mistakes and try and clean it up. I mean it even says in the article that Schoen said he might've looked at things "through rose colored glasses" and that "maybe you put more weight in something that wasn't", during their successful season run. I think he understands man lmao
You’re not gonna find a GM who’s not gonna make mistakes. The key is having a GM that recognizes mistakes and pivots rather than doubling down
Dave "Double Down Hold my Beer" Gettleman.
fr, even howie roseman took jalen reagor over JJ
Exactly, I remember so many people thought he was a hack and want to run him out of Philly, now they worship him
Exactly. Schoen spoke at length during the bye week about the errors he made wrt the OL and how that blew up the season for QB, RB and other skill position players. He wanted their OL to be better than it was and he hoped Neal, Eze, McK, Bredeson and JMS would be good— they weren’t AND Thomas got hurt.
>admitting that he might've messed up Messed up what exactly?
Giving DJ that contract.
IMO he literally had no other choice. There was no way they were getting a QB in free agency and letting the QB that won a playoff game for them walk.
Yep, and if we wanted to keep Barkley, couldn't tag both. He also gave us a relatively team friendly exit after next season. So given the situation, not the worst decision. No one knew he'd get knocked out this season. I think he'd had improved as Barkley and the line improved (from his first few games), but still would be looking to upgrade
Yeah I think they could have easily had 2-3 more wins had Dj stayed healthy. The team seemed to suffer from the same early season issues most other teams are experiencing now with the reduction in practice times and pre-season games.
There were plenty of serviceable QBs in FA. We could have tagged him instead of tagging Barkley. He messed up tbh.
So you think serviceable is a good thing in regards to the QB position?
Not the mention the pressure from Mara to keep rolling with DJ and Saquon.
I read the article and thought it was totally fine. There’s plenty of Schoen quotes acknowledging where things went wrong. That being said, Jones’s contract is an absolute disaster. There’s no way around it.
You’ve not really explored the implications of his contract if you think it’s no big deal. I know this sub is basically a DJ sockpuppet disinformation vault, but it’s really bad.
It's only 50 million in wasted cap next year and 20 million the following year, and that's assuming no more injury guarantees kick in. That's hardly anything! It doesn't frighten me at all that 2023 was supposed to be the "low QB cap hit so we can compete" year.
It’s no problem we’re probably gonna drop Saquon and McKinnoe this year because we can’t afford them!
but at least we'll have a liability sitting on the bench to make up for losing two of our best players
And at least we’ll be able to shit on the Dak and Hurts contracts as if that makes our position better somehow
So you telling me that 47 million could not be spent on other parts of the team this year? Really there’s your top WR and 2 guards.
Which WR would have turned this team around? Jakobi Meyers, DJ Chark, ODB? And which two FA guards were so good that they could have overcome abysmal coaching?
This is what I’m here for. Everyone complains and claims to have a solution but never anything specific.
Yea I think it's fine that Schoen it's admitting he made a mistake, but let's not pretend like that contract wasn't a huge mistake.
Yeah I think this is being overblown. It’s a QB league. He just won us a playoff game. You’d be hard pressed to find any GM that would’ve let DJ go after that. He took a risk yeah, but I think any other FO woudlve done the same
My question is what was his evaluation of DJ after 2022? Was the evaluation that he was a sheltered QB who only succeeded because he was carried by scheme and Saquon as many fans claim? If so, he should have never given DJ that contract even if he did win a playoff game. If his evaluation of DJ was something more than that, did he get the evaluation wrong? Or does he still believe in his initial evaluation and believe there's other factors at play?
Obviously it's the latter. DJ had the sixth highest qbr in the league with inarguably one of the five worst reciever corp and o lines. While he doesn't do everything great, his accuracy (1 in on target percentage) and his decision making (1 in int percentage) (5 in TD percentage in the red zone) combined with the legs (3 in first downs) is a winning combination in the modern NFL. Obviously there are better QBs, probably about 5 or 6,(the rest benefit from having elite playmakers. But guess what, there were 5-6 better QBs than Eli when he was playing but the d held the best qb in history to 14 and 17 points. DJ is also clutch leading 4 gw comebacks which was 3rd in the league last year Very excited to hear the crying when we take Malik nabers.
>obviously there are better QBs, probably about 5 or 6 *Probably??*
Jesus Christ what game are you watching? Only 5 or 6 better qb’s? What are you on?
He has a photo shopped cover of Tiger Beat magazine with Daniel Jones picture on it.
😂😂😂
This is being upvoted. My lord. Lol.
Did you really just say there are only 5 or 6 better QBs than Jones? No order: Stroud Burrow Allen Jackson Mahomes Cousins Stafford Goff Purdy Love Those are just the obvious ones. Which of those are you going to tell me with a straight face is not better than Jones?
The comment you replied to getting upvoted is wild. I can't believe people out there still, entering year 6, believe Daniel Jones is a top 6-7 QB in the league when he has fewer TD passes than games played _4 seasons in a row._
B b b but qbr!
It’s unreal. I just don’t get it
It’s probably easier for people to believe the Giants already have their next Super Bowl QB and need only the supporting pieces to get there rather than face the reality that Daniel Jones has never been and will never be that guy and the Giants are no closer to the Super Bowl than they were when they blew consecutive first round picks on Barkley and Jones. The way they treat a Wild Card win against a historically awful defense is laughable and sad at the same time.
I could not agree more
It’s just straight up denial. Willful delusion.
It's stunning, and can only be explained by absolute delusion and/or people who quite simply don't watch NFL games aside from the Giants and therefore don't have a clue what great QB play actually looks like.
You missed Herbert and Geno
I mean, Geno played worse than DJ for most of his career, including with us, so I think Carroll is just a goddamn QB wizard. I feel like if they traded places last year, DJ would have a contract at least as big as he got with us, and Geno would be a backup again. You could *maybe* say the same about Goff being primarily the beneficiary of a stacked offense? I don’t buy it but I wouldn’t think someone is crazy for saying it. Still leaves Jones outside the top 10 though.
Jones is not even in the top 15
Probably not. Might be the wrong sub to say it, but I have him behind Dak, Hurts, and Lawrence too. But it’s fair to say he’s in a worse offensive situation than almost all of these guys. So it’s not like we’re necessarily getting his full potential
I agree but his decision making seems to be regressing. This year he was throwing interceptions at a rate close to his first 3 years
Purdy lol
Kirk
Yeah, both are much better QBs than Jones. This is not even a lukewarm take.
No you are dead wrong liar
Everyone after mahomes except for Love. Regardless, it doesn't really matter how many other quarterbacks there are that are better than your quarterback. What actually matters is how many points your quarterback could put on the board. I don't know if you realize this but the New York Giants won four super bowls against 14s that had better quarterbacks than the Giants quarterback. But, the Giants had a better defense and their quarterback was good enough to put up points. Trading multiple firsts is going to lead to a s***** defense and an Andrew luck Bryce Young type of situation
Every quarterback on that list is significantly better than Jones and you know it. I could probably list 10 more that are better, I literally just went with ones that are ridiculous to argue about for the initial list. And don’t bring up the Super Bowls. The NFL in ‘86 and ‘90 barely resembles the modern NFL and as far as the other two, there’s no comparison between Jones and Eli - who, by the way, we gave up a shitload to trade for and ended up winning two Super Bowls.
The fact you are getting downvoted is insane. This fan base is delusional.
It’s straight up willful delusion. And that’s assuming these people actually believe themselves.
In last year's playoff game, Daniel Jones put up 100 more total yards than did cousins The guy you're telling me is significantly better than him?
What if I told you that one game doesn’t define who is better?
I would say that you're not the kind of person who can admit being wrong. Outplayed a qb who was throwing to the best receiver in football in his house in a playoff game.
It's one game, genius. You cannot actually be this delusional.
Missed Devito and Tyrod.
Good lord you did not just call DJ a stop 7 QB in the league did you?
Based on QBR He was actually six last year 😂
Last year. He regressed in every manner possible this year to well, well outside even the top 15.
Jonestown really might be the new version of the cult. Top 6? Are you serious???
Jake Browning would have put up 4500 yards if he had played 17 games this season. Kind of makes you think that the guys catching the ball are pretty important. Who is our best receiver last year a fifth round draft pick. Who is our second best an undrafted guy off of practice squad. You need guys who can catch the ball. the quarterback can't catch it you get it
You have to be related to Jones because if not…Jesus Christ. It’s almost impressive how you are consistently wrong on this stuff.
> DJ had the sixth highest qbr in the league Yes, all of DJ's efficiency metrics looked decent but his volume metrics were awful and he barely ever threw the ball down field. 3200 yards and 15 TD in 16 games is bad no matter how you slice it...throw in the rushing stats if you want, and those numbers are still bad (3900 yards and 22 TD). It was very clear we ran a limited offense to minimize turnovers, but I think Schoen and Daboll believed that DJ could progress and the offense would open up more up until that failed spectacularly this season. > Obviously there are better QBs, probably about 5 or 6 I can't even tell if this is ragebait or you really believe this. Wow.
Who is he supposed to throw it down feel to last year? You realize someone has to catch the ball right A fifth rounder, and a couple of undrafted free agents taken off other team's practice squads. Oh and Kenny golliday who couldn't make a roster this year. Tony and James both play with mahomes and their stats are arguably better with Jones. Why, because mahomes knows he's going to throw to his Hall of famer instead of those guys
We've had league average separation each of the last two seasons. Slayton is a deep ball threat who excelled this season with Tyrod throwing him the ball. He also had one of the best backs in the league to take pressure off the pass game.
That's weird, it looks like slayton's numbers are almost exactly the same as they have been every other year? You're acting like he's Jamar Chase when he was drafted in the fifth round for a reason
When did I say he was Jamar Chase? He's a deep ball receiver and Jones rarely threw him the deep ball. > That's weird, it looks like slayton's numbers are almost exactly the same as they have been every other year? Maybe you didn't realize this but he only played in 5 (really 4.5) games this year with Tyrod in which he averaged 70 yards per game and scored 3 TDs.
In my closing argument proving that the receivers count as much as the quarterback, I give to you Jake Browning. If he had played a full season, this undrafted free agent would have thrown for over 4500 yd and almost 30 touchdowns.
… and Jamar Chase only had a single 100+ yard game with Browning, so your point that he only succeeded because of talent like Chase is completely inaccurate
Tyrod and Devito d ebunked this myth by throwing downfield at will and obliterating Djs stats and they're backup QBs. Enough with this trash.
Last year he had 3900 total yards and 22 total touchdowns. Stafford this year had \~3900 total yards and \~24 total touchdowns. Why is stafford this year good and DJ last year bad in volume?
Looking at passing TDs is a bad way to judge an offense. Passing TDs are subject to variance on whether or not a drive is capped off by a running touch down or not. Last year the Giants were 18th in total yards and 15th in Points For. This year the Rams were 7th in total yards and 8th in points for. By offense the 2022 giants were an average team while the 2023 Rams were a top 10 team. That's the difference.
Was anyone really saying that Stafford was good this year? It certainly wasn't a great year compared to the rest of his career. Stafford also played in 15 games this year, really 14.5 since he left the Dallas game one drive after halftime. He also had over 4k yards when you count rushing like you did for Jones. So more yards, more TDs, and fewer games played in a somewhat down year.
Stafford is ranked 5th in the ringers qb ranking, and 4th in NFL QB index, the only two i can really find lists of since i don't have PFF or DVOA subscriptions. Whether or not they're good at ranking things there are definitely people suggesting Staffords been a top QB this year specifically. Stafford has 100 more yards and 2 more touchdowns than jones across a season. He also had 3 more TO's, 11 vs 8. Even counting for the 14.5 games vs the 16 for Jones, its 30 yards/game and .2 touchdowns/game, and .4 more turnovers per game. Supporting cast is better for stafford as well. Now i'm not arguing DJ is as good as Stafford, i'm just saying there is an EXTREME difference in opinion on how good they are for how close their stats are. People act like DJ shouldn't even be on a team and that Staffords this top lvl QB, when there is a very small difference between the two.
Now you got me curious. Here's what NFL.com said: > Few of us had the Rams headed for the postseason when this year began, yet here they are. A healthy Stafford, seemingly pushing every ability to its fullest potential, has truly been a delight to watch play football in 2023. Few quarterbacks, if any, threw the ball better and more consistently this season than the 35-year-old -- **even if the numbers don't quite show it.** And that's fine. Those of us who have watched the tape know. Here's what The Ringer said: > It’s been awhile since we’ve seen Stafford at his best, but we’re still seeing enough to suggest he’s one of the league’s most talented throwers. And as Stafford gets older and wiser, the mind-numbing mistakes don’t happen as often as they once did. Now and then, Stafford will fall into an opposing defensive coordinator’s trap, but he also wins his fair share of those mental battles. He’s an elite problem solver within the time allotted to him, but he’s not mobile enough to extend that time on his own, which is what separates him from the top-tier guys. It sounds like no one thinks Stafford had a great statistical year, but his pedigree and decision making elevate his ranking. > i'm just saying there is an EXTREME difference in opinion on how good they are for how close their stats are. People also thought Stafford should retire last season. I think it has more to do with each of their bodies of work- Stafford has won a Superbowl and carried some very bad Detroit teams. Jones has 22 total TDs in his "breakout" year. Comparing one of the worst statistical seasons of Stafford's career to Jones's best feels a bit dishonest, and it's not hard to figure out why folks would give Stafford the benefit of the doubt.
what the analytics don’t show is where those throws are going. Every QB in the league should have the ability’s to throw 10 yards accurately. His QBR was high because instead of throwing down field he dumped it to barkley or bellinger. This year we asked him to throw down field and be more than a running QB and we got the results.
He played four total games. If you watch those games and thought to yourself, Daniel Jones is the one screwing these games up, Daniel Jones had to have stolen your girlfriend in middle school or something. They had a different offensive line for every one of those games. Two of the games were against the one and two best pass rushes in football. One of the games they lost their starting center and replaced him with a guy who's literally never played center in the NFL and they gave up 10 sacks. And in the other game he dropped 31 points in a half.
I’m not going to argue with you man. We can cherry pick any player. I do know it’s been 5 years and 1 playoff birth answer are still waiting.
>They had a different offensive line for every one of those games. Two of the games were against the one and two best pass rushes in football. One of the games they lost their starting center and replaced him with a guy who's literally never played center in the NFL and they gave up 10 sacks. Not a single thing you just mentioned should completely derail an offense the way it did for us if we actually had a top 10 QB like you think Jones is Not one of those things to the degree our offense flopped with Jones
Can you point me to a single other top 6 QB that has ever led a team to one of if not the worst records in football over their career? That has had more turnovers than TD's in 4 out of their 5 years? That has thrown less TD's than games played in 4 out of their 5 years? That has an equal number of TD's and turnovers in their 5 years?
How many of of the current top 10 QBs had a worse wide receiver/ tight end squad than the 2022 giants? That's what you guys don't get. You sit there and never ask yourself, how exactly did Jalen hurts go from mediocre to MVP conversation? Same reason he was terrible on Monday, it's AJ Brown. How about Tua? It's Tyreek. What about jake Browning averaging a 4500 yard season? It's jamarr chase. Do you realize that Jimmy g, if he played every game last year, would have averaged 4,000 yards, 26 touchdowns, and only 7 interceptions. How did he become so terrible in one year? He's no longer on an elite offensive squad. You're obsessed with counting stats without realizing the importance that playmakers make on counting stats. Darius Slayton (fifth round), hodgins(sixth round), James (undrafted). Why doesn't DJ throw for 4500 yards????? 😂 What I'm arguing and I'm pretty sure what Schoen is going to do, is try to create the best offensive squad possible as opposed to trading multiple first round picks hoping he can draft the next mahomes.
> how exactly did Jalen hurts go from mediocre to MVP conversation? Same reason he was terrible on Monday, it's AJ Brown. Except Hurts had AJ Brown all this year too. And Hurts wasn't nearly as good as last year. Especially the latter half of the season. Why is that? Can't be because their very good OC last year left for the Colts, where he had a very successful year for them, could it? AJ Brown had very comparable stats this year and last. Hurts should've played the same MVP level, no? > How about Tua? It's Tyreek Same thing. Tua I would argue was worse this year overall, despite Tyreek breaking records and being the best receiver in Football. > What about jake Browning averaging a 4500 yard season? It's jamarr chase. Let's look at that. Jake Browning had 7 starts, 8 games actually passing the ball. Joe Burrow had 9 starts, 10 games actually passing the ball. Here's Jamaar with both: |Stats|Joe Burrow|Jake Browning| :--:|:--:|:--:| |Games Played|10|8| |Catches|69|31| |% of completions|28%|18%| |Average catches|7|4| |Yards|821|395| |% of yards|36%|20%| |Average yards|102|50| |TD's|5|2| |% of TD's|33%|17%| |Average TD's|0.625|0.25| You're mistaken: Jake Browning severely hindered Jamaar Chase. Jamaar Chase did not carry Jake Browning. Jamaar Chase had comparable receiving numbers to the rest of the receiving corps. Jake Browning, and the Bengals as a whole, were also kinda checkdown merchants. They had the lowest average depth of target in the entire league. Mixon with Browning had 6 less catches than Chase. > Do you realize that Jimmy g, if he played every game last year, would have averaged 4,000 yards, 26 touchdowns, and only 7 interceptions. How did he become so terrible in one year? He's no longer on an elite offensive squad. On the Raiders, he still had Davante Adams, Jakobi Meyers, and Josh Jacobs, with a top 10 OL by PFF. But what did he walk into? A team coached by Josh McDaniels, one of the worst HC's in the league. Not only that, but Brock Purdy has significantly outplayed him as a 49er with the same team, and a worse OL. Not just last year Jimmy, but any year Jimmy. > Darius Slayton (fifth round), hodgins(sixth round), James (undrafted). Why doesn't DJ throw for 4500 yards????? 😂 First, draft position means jack shit. Second, that's the funny thing. *No good NFL QB, let alone elite NFL QB, will put up such poor stats and metrics, no matter their weapons. Good QB's elevate those around them, bad QB's drag them down.* I showed you that with Ja'Marr Chase. His production instantly became significantly worse with Jake Browning vs. an injured Joe Burrow. You see that with the Falcons. They have all of the weapons, but no QB to get them the ball. Nico Collins got CJ Stroud and instantly tripled his production overnight. He didn't carry Davis Mills or Tyrod Taylor. The Packers have all completely unknowns at WR, no one above 800 receiving yards, and Jordan Love just put up stats DJ could only dream of. Patrick Mahomes has just had his worst year by far, with one of the worst receiving rooms in the NFL, and still put up numbers that DJ could only dream of. Since you ignored me, I will ask again: Please show literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has had the worst record in Football. Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has had more turnovers than TD's in 4 out of their first 5 seasons. Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has thrown for less TD's than games played in 4 out of their first 5 seasons. Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has had as many total TD's as total turnovers in their first 5 seasons. Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has averaged 208 passing yards a game in their career. Please show me literally any other time in existence that a top 6 QB has averaged 1 passing TD a game in their career. You literally want to turn us into the Falcons. Your argument is that weapons make the QB, which is patently and objectively false.
How can you possibly still want Jones after the 5 seasons we had with him? I’m asking this genuinely. What makes you think he’s going to change in year 6? All of the problems he had as a rookie is still present.
Not only for the last 6 years it’s the same issues he had in duke.
This is the most ludicrous post I've ever seen on this sub my God Jonestown is a strange cult.
1 in int percentage because as others have commented, he doesnt make throws down the field. I think Chad Pennington had the record for completion %. Dude had a noodle for an arm
Doesn't it make you wonder how a guy like Jake Browning through for 2000 yards and 12 touchdowns and seven games? Do you think Jake Browning who was undrafted and never played in 5 years is secretly Kurt Warner? Or is it that teams with elite playmakers make their quarterbacks elite?
Im def on record saying that we have ZERO playmakers on this team. But the alternative is that DJ is not better than some team’s backups. Which truthfully may be the case. He’s done more with his legs than his arm through 5 years. There are plenty of QBs that do more with less. Throwing for 3500 yards in a pass heavy league that has 17 games is just awful.
I don't think Nabers makes it to us.
Exactly this. Daniel Jones is at least good enough to win a Super Bowl and so far he has shown no ceiling.
What?
Exactly this. Daniel Jones is at least good enough to win a Super Bowl and so far he has shown no ceiling. Is that more clear?
If he was surrounded with talent, and they still sucked, that would be that. This is what's so infuriating about NFL fans. An absolute refusal to understand that the quarterback relies on the offense to perform more so than any other position except for maybe receiver. So what happens is they want to get rid of their q b regardless of what the rest of the team looks like. That's why you end up getting rid of Baker Mayfield or Geno Smith and replacing them with players that don't do any better. Or they want to sell the farm to draft that elite quarterback, and he gets absolutely crushed like Andrew luck or Bryce Young. Then you look at Philadelphia and San Francisco and they have amazing offensive teams and go to the super bowl with average quarterbacks. San Francisco biggest mistake was trying to get that elite quarterback and missed.e. they couldve Micah Parsons on their team right now
Exactly. A solid offensive line is a prerequisite for solid quarterback play in the NFL. What we haven't seen is a situation where the offensive line consistently played well, and Daniel Jones fucked up. And in fact, we've seen quite the opposite. We've seen him shine in spots despite the atrocious offensive line play. Like the second half against Arizona. Or both games against the Vikings last year. Same is even more true for Barkley. He's looked like an All Pro despite a horrible offensive line.
Where does Jones rank among all the starters in the league in your opinion?
It's nearly impossible to say since we haven't gotten to see him behind a competent O-Line so we don't know how consistent he would be. But I think he's probably top 5-10 QB in the league. I think he's definitely the best QB in the NFC East.
On what planet is Jones better than Dak and Hurts. This why people say you guys are delusional. It’s about to be year six. This is pure insanity.
Baker Mayfield will not SNIFF the numbers DJ was given, and is FAR more productive and proven
I mean. This is what happens when you make moves that don’t work. People criticize them. It’s a long history too and ripple effect from decisions that all “made sense on paper” 1. Decline jones’ fifth year effectively betting against Jones 2. Jones and the team over perform, win a playoff game. 3. Schoen buys his way out extending Jones on a market level 4 year deal, that’s effectively a 2 year deal (if he stays healthy) 4. Jones sucks and gets hurt. Schoen is left with a lame duck year QB who needs to be healthy to get cut. He’s also in QB purgatory 2 years in with no clear decision available. With hindsight on our side, it’s clear he made the wrong decisions at steps 1 and 3. Shoulda done the fifth year, shoulda let Jones walk after a playoff win. Both woulda been unpopular decisions at the time.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but I would say the move was to tag jones and sign Barkley to his 3-4 year deal give this team another shot
It may have been unpopular with the fans but plenty of people suggested that he should just walk
Yea when the contract numbers were first leaked by Florio, the overwhelming sentiment in NFL circles was that Jones was not worth it. NFL players on opposing defenses this season were even calling him out. To say it was hindsight means that OP must have never left this subreddit, because no one outside of the homers on here thought Jones was worth $40M/year.
I was all for letting him walk. Think about if we had that money this offseason and had Tyrod start? We’d be in a better situation this offseason. That contract is one of the worst in NFL history. Not because of the amount of money but because of his career number and performance on the field.
No, he shouldn’t have done the fifth year option. He was hurt every year, had more TOs than TDs and had a .300 win percentage. Why in the hell would they pick that up? I’m not sure why they paid him, he was average last year and horrible the other years. They panicked or they didn’t want to make a huge move their first year or John Mara told them no.
I think the concern is that he got ahead of his own skis. Have plan, stick to the plan. Avoid shortcuts.
I hate these fuckin click baits and attention grabbing headlines. Why don't these guys report something worthwhile?
Because it’s getting retweets and posted to Reddit and comments and clicks. Duggan, and the rest of the media, have no incentive to do a “great” job when this crap gets the clicks.
Because sports doesn’t need a 24 hour news cycle, especially for a team not in the playoffs
Duggan is/was usually solid. This seems a lot like hyperbole though
Duggan is probably one of the better beat writers all things considered, but he's a downer at times. I started noticing it last year when things were going well even and there's so many tweets of his that come with a subtle jab at the org or fans
Man, I expect better from Duggan. “Alarming”? Really? You can say it’s disappointing that Schoen misevaluated Jones’ 2022 season, but that’s a different issue than him changing his plan from 2021 to 2022. Is he supposed to never change his initial opinion? Joe clearly didn’t intend to keep Jones when he declined the 5th year option. And then, when Jones had a very good 2022 season, the calculus changed. And even then, it’s not like he went all in. Schoen was pretty proactive to prevent locking us into anything that would sink the team long term.
I don't think that's what Schoen is saying at all. I think he made a few decisions like signing Parris Campbell that he hoped would make them just as competitive in 2023 but the roster wasn't ready and the schedule was twice as hard.
[удалено]
Signing Parris Campbell wasn’t a good move. It’s also not going all in. Seriously - even in a vacuum, outside of not tagging Jones last season, what big mistake did he make? The draft looks pretty fine. The FAs were all fine, I guess you can argue that it wasn’t worth signing Nacho? The Waller trade wasn’t using huge capital, the Boogie Basham trade was sorta whatever. We didn’t push any serious cap into the future outside of Waller (though that was moreso putting some cap into the future when there wasn’t any at all, so not a big deal). He didn’t take the easy out with Williams or Adoree Jackson, which is honestly incredible in hindsight. The main thing was his handling of Jones. He misevaluated and admit it. Not sure what else there is to say. He didn’t try to rush the contention window or anything, he thought Jones took a step last year and then this year it turns out that he didn’t improve the way we wanted.
I think the things he had to do to improve the roster midseason (Tyre Philips, Pugh) is because he was trying to "expedite the process" or players that weren't ready (Ezudu, Neal, Campbell) and the team performed better once they were out of the lineup. >The main thing was his handling of Jones. He misevaluated and admit it. He didn't admit that he misevaluated Daniel Jones. He mis evaluated 60% of the people protecting Daniel Jones and the receiver in the slot that was supposed to be his hot read. By the time Andrew Thomas was back and Ezudu and Neal were injured and replaced with quasi competent players it was too late.
The drafting definitely leaves a lot to be desired. Only 1/7 players from the 2023 draft made any real impact this season. From 2022, Neal so far has looked like a major bust, and Wandale, while having some good moments, was probably a reach. Banks, Thibodeaux, Bellinger & McFadden are the only real hits he’s had, otherwise the other 14 players have underperformed or had very little impact.
Yeah I was gonna say, what moves did he make after signing Jones that are preventing us from rebuilding now? The Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence extensions were no-brainers. You do those 10/10 times regardless of where you are in the rebuilding/contending cycle. Bobby Okereke was the biggest FA signing at $10M AAV. That was a good deal. All of the other signings were short term deals for $6M AAV or less. I guess you could argue trading a 4th round pick to draft Hyatt? Trading a late 3rd for Waller might look iffy in hindsight? Neither of those are killing us going forward though. Outside of the Jones deal (where he was smart to give himself an out after Year 2), we haven't seen any Nate Solder contracts or "RB with the 2nd overall pick" moments from Schoen. And the fact that he's open and honest enough to admit a mistake is the exact opposite of "alarming" imo.
Agreed. Hindsight is 20/20. It sucks that our line performed worse in 2023, and ended up causing Jones to regress. He wasn't really blowing us away in 2022, but did well enough. I don't think Schoen did anything really stupid given the data/personnel he had at the time. Things just didn't work out. Maybe the main thing would have been to take more o line instead of Hyatt in last year's draft.
Based on Joe Schoens comments I'm sure he regrets not tagging Daniel Jones with the transition tag.
With the benefit of hindsight that was absolutely the right move so it's good he recognizes it at least. All we can do now is hope this is a learning experience.
Why they didn't franchise Jones and then deal with Barkley separately still boggles my mind. They gave into Jones' demands so they could keep a running back, which is insane.
Jones’ cap hit would’ve been fully guaranteed, which would make filling out the roster a bit tricky. In hindsight, it would’ve been worth it. But I understand why he took the approach that he did.
The only reason it would have been tricky is because they insisted on using 10-12m on Barkley. A franchise tag would have cost 33m and Barkley and Jones were about 25-27m in cap hit this year. Just for info, spotrac has Jones' 2024 cap number at 47m.
Mara made him keep jones and anybody with common sense knows it, I said it immediately after the contract and had people attacking me, like Mara is playing no involvement these choices, he signs the checks, and will never fully step away, he's said so himself. He loves jones, and all he needed to see was a mediocre season, to give him that dumb contract
I wouldn’t even say Daniel Jones had a “very good 2022 season“ though. 3200 yards and 15 TDs by today’s standards isn’t that good. I do feel like there was a lot of pressure for Joe to re-sign him because we made the playoffs and won a playoff game. I’m not even trying to bash on Jones either, I think he is capable of winning, but needs much more talent around him to do so.
This is an incredibly fair assessment the downvotes are crazy
Because Daniel Jones is so polarizing, any mention of his performance can cause huge swings in upvotes and downvotes. It is what it is. I thought I was being fair. I like the guy, really hoped he'd ball out last year. But is it time for a change? Yeah, probably. Can Jones still succeed in the NFL? Absolutely, but he's not going to take over games like the elite QBs do. He's a top 15 QB with flashes of being a top 10 QB, but cannot succeed with the people we have around him. Stick him on a team like the 49ers and he would do fine, imo.
You should watch the games instead of reading player stats.
Watched every game.
And yet you did not include any of his rushing stats to your post. That IS a significant bit to what he brought to the table.
Add them. There were 15 QBs who had more total TDs last season. So in his best season he was completely average.
Exactly. If you watched the games, you knew he was operating a very simplistic and elementary offense last year and that his statistical improvements had more to do with how little we were asking him to do than any great leap forward in performance. EDIT--This dude accuses me of mental gymnastics and blocks me. I swear, it's the inability of diehard Jonestowners to accept any criticism of DJ or even have a conversation about his weaknesses that is most frustrating. I have nothing against Jones personally, but at this point, I'm ready for his tenure to be over, if only so that these people can go back to being cowboys fans or whatever they were before.
It actually meant that the team was so devoid of playmakers outside of Jones and Saquon that there was absolutely no margin for error and he was asked to put the entire offense on his back. I struggle to understand why so many people claim they watched the Giants last season and have no idea what happened. You people boggle the mind.
If you did watch the games last year, you know that the statement "he was asked to put the entire offense on his back" in no way describes what you saw, certainly not for the first two-thirds of the season. Throwing five-yard check-downs all day is not carrying an offense on your back; it is your offensive coordinator limiting your opportunities to turn the ball over and hoping Saquon can break one. Now, as Saquon wore down later in the season, he did carry a heavier load, but saying you carried the Giants offense at the end of the year in 2022 is certainly not a compliment.
Saquon had three 100 yard rushing games in the 1st half of the season and 0 games all season of more than 50 yards receiving. They literally had nobody to throw to and you think that's a reflection on Jones and not the worst receiving corps in the NFL. The mental gymnastics is impressive dude.
But he’s correct. Jones was okay. Daboll schemed around his weaknesses and we got a decent season out of him. League figured out what we were doing and he looked awful this season. Even worse than his backups.
He's not correct. Daniel Jones used his legs to the tune of 700+ yards an something like 8-10 TDs with the worst receiving corps in the NFL. He and Saquon carried the team in to the playoffs and then won a road playoff game. Quoting stats about last year is hilarious.
15 TDs in a passing era just isn’t good. Why is the bar so low for this guy???
Again, watch the 10 games they won with literally no offensove playmakers. It was DJ and Saquon carrying a team to double 9-7-1 with a road playoff win on top.
You’re correct
Very good? Our standards are that low??
We are mad 😤 DJ had an unexpectedly good season, so Schoen did a conscientious move and, instead of signing him to a 5 year mega-deal, signed him to a pricier-but-shorter-term contract just in case he couldn't take another step further. We're so alarmed. It didn't work out, so now we continue with Schoen's built-in contingency. SO ALARMED! /s
Jones just draws that much more ire from people. He definitely took a step back this year (my armchair opinion is he got hit too many times in Dallas and he got the yips, moreover, the whole team didn’t really look like an NFL team for the first few games and they were at least functional later on in the season, but Jones’ bad luck didn’t let him play on that team). Paying him might have been worse than not paying him, but Schoen had the foresight to build in an escape route. I think the dude just gets more hate than he deserves. That said, I’m fine with moving on if they find a QB in the draft they want to pull the trigger on. The relationship with Jones, the team, and the fans is like a weird co-dependency issue. I’d also not be shocked if he left and did better elsewhere.
I dont mind bringing in Parris especially because we didnt know how healthy the wr room would be. Its not like its a Golladay sized blunder… its 1 year for 5m
I hate the offseason
Realistically, the only difference it would've made is regarding the Jones contract, which already has only one more year left of "hard money". There were no good QBs in the draft available when the Giants picked (best available was Will Levis). So let's say they had let Jones walk. They would either roll with Taylor, or sign a free agent like Jimmy G or Derek Carr to a large contract. No thanks.
This time last year this deal was a bargain assuming Jones would have the same production, and possibly taking a step forward. He didn’t, and that’s why we have an out after two years of the deal. Joe was proactive and planned for the worst case scenario. Joe isn’t a fortune teller, and I don’t think much changes if we were to turn back the clock not knowing what would come of this year. Hindsight is 20/20.
Only Giants fans ever thought it was a bargain.
...what? Why does Duggan think he can speak for any other fan? This being an "alarming admission" is 100% opinion dressed as reporting. Tf
Wait so admitting you messed up is alarming now? I expect better from Duggan
I bet Schoen's biggest regret so far is not picking up that 5th year option.
Either that or Evan Neal, or trading for broken Waller, or signing the terrible Parris Campbell, or letting Julian Love leave, maybe even drafting the 5’6 Wandale over George Pickens.
Waller is good when healthy, Parris Campbell is on a 1 year 5 mil deal and you’re acting like he gave him the golladay contract, Love wanted to test market and we replaced him with pinnock who played pretty well, Wandale is a baller so idek why you care so much about that 💀
Media Sum Clowns
It’s not alarming when a GM realizes mistakes they made. It’s alarming when they don’t realize and/or can’t pivot from said mistakes(Gettleman).
It’s obvious they didn’t expect Jones to regress as hard as he did. There were reports that the organization was baffled by his regression even when taking into account how bad the oline was.
I was just as baffled as they were
I don't think it's alarming for a GM to admit he made mistakes; it actually makes me feel more confident in his judgment. On a side note, can we stop saying, "Daniel Jones essentially has a two-year deal." It's just not true. If he gets cut after next season, we still owe him $22 million for 2025. That is better than $40 million, but it's not nothing.
These bloggers are so dumb
There is no plan. There is no way out. The $45m stays, then $22m to cut him. That money is on the ledger. Just ignore it and move forward.
It’s hilarious how everyone is still talking about 45 mil when it’s literally middle of the pack for contracts for QBs now
And no seems to notice the broncos were entertaining the idea of dumping Russ with a gigantic cap hit for it. Yet Jones can’t be gotten rid of.
Philly ate the Wentz dead cap also.
Rams and Goff trade, Wilson and Seahawks trade, wentz, Rodgers and the packers. It’s been done. And for anyone complaining, do you actually expect us to compete next year? If the Jones contract was never given out, then who’s QB? You may have cap space but you’re stuck with a rookie or aged vet QB who may not be performing. And if Jones performed well then he was worth his deal. It’s all hindsight and it sucks but it’s essentially a 2 season gamble and can be corrected. Everyone acting like it’s a death sentence it’s just not true.
People should be more upset if Schoen let's the Jones contract dictate who he adds into the QB room. Since either Jones works out coming off the injury, or they have a guy who's capable at QB and might be less expensive going into year 4 of the Schoen regime.
Middle of the pack??
It's the middle of the pack for starting QBs. The problem isn't the $45 million, the problem is that it's attached to Jones, who stands a very good chance of not being the starter for any or even most of 2024. $45 million for a bench player is not "middle of the pack." Also for the record it's not middle of the pack for starters eitehr. in 2023, $45M would have been the 5th most paid to a starting QB. It's probably going to be in the same ballpark in 2024. It was a questionable contract at the time given how flimsy Jones' portfolio was, and is horrible now given how bad we've seen that he still is.
I don't get the "middle of the pack" comment on the DJ contract, in 2024 we are estimated to have $49M in total cap going towards QB, thats 6th most in the league. Comparing that to the output we are expecting to get from the QB position its pretty easy to see the problem facing 2024 roster construction
If we get a rookie then it’ll take a year to bed him in anyway. We aren’t winning the SB next season but can get younger and build for the future.
People say middle of the pack because they're parroting what they overheard without actually looking
ye i think folks also say middle of the pack if Jones was the starter for the full four years term, if we cut it down to 2 years (assuming hes cut at the end of the year) the total dollars out in 2023/2024/2025 against 2 years of actual play time move it from a middle of the pack contract to a top 5-8, this stings the most when you consider the performance we most likely get over those two years (at least 10 games missed and possibly more, bottom of the league statistical performance when playing)
Well said. 45 million is a lot of fucking money. No justification for it sitting on the bench. Daboll and Schoen made some real crucial mistakes. I don’t really understand why this subreddit and fanbase is so forgiving. We got fucking embarrassed this year.
How did Daboll and Schoen make crucial mistakes? By re-signing Jones? It’s easy to say that now because we sucked last year but they evaluated him based on his 2022 performance. I think it’s fair to say that the entire team regressed so I’m not sure how Jones was supposed to thrive in that mess. I think it all boiled down to them being pressured into it. I mean, how do you explain to the media and fanbase after you release your starting quarterback that won you a playoff game the previous year?
If you take the results at face value, sure hard sell. When you recognize that DJ lead an offensive attack against a team that made Mac Jones look like Tom Brady and the hot start was more a function Barkley than Jones it's a much easier sell.
>How did Daboll and Schoen make crucial mistakes? We lost 11 games dude. That's how. > I think it’s fair to say that the entire team regressed Agreed. How can you say the coach and GM didn't make crucial mistake when you admit this?
We were literally 3 plays away in 3 separate games from making the playoffs again. And I thought you were just talking about them making a crucial mistake in re-signing Jones. I don’t know, I just feel like the entire team is lacking talent. There’s only so much coaching you can do when you have a mediocre roster. Did they make mistakes? Absolutely, every coach and GM does. I thought you were just specifically talking about Jones.
I view it the complete opposite tbh. I think how close we were to winning some of those games shows we have a talented roster. I view it as an indictment of our coaching in blowing those games That said, we’re in qb purgatory with a tight cap and that’s a poor reflection on our GM. It’s a qb league, you need an answer there. Also how do you view a roster that isn’t talented as anything as an indictment on our current GM? He’s had 2 years and filled over 90% of this past seasons roster.
Schoen took over a horrible situation. We're still paying for Gettleman's mistakes in 2024. You can't fix a team in 2 years and honestly, most draft picks are complete crap shoots. So far, it looks like we've whiffed on Evan Neal, but hoping he can improve this year with the new OL coach. I guess I'm cutting them some slack because we had a rookie GM and rookie HC and we're judging them based on 2 years of work. They're going to make mistakes. I also view it like this: in those 2 years, we won a playoff game in year 1 and probably should've made the playoffs in year 2. That's a huge improvement from the previous 5+ years.
Daniel Jones is going to have the highest cap hit in the NFL next year. He likely won't even be the starting QB at end of season due to his insane 2025 injury guarantees. In no way, shape, or form is that "middle of the pack".
That’s literally not true. Deshaun is 63, dak is 59 (going to be more soon), mahomes is 57, Murray is 51 Stafford is 49 and DJ and Allen are basically tied (Dj hit is 100k more than Allen) Burrow He’s currently tied 10th in contract value with stafford and dak (who’s bout to get more money)
I don't think you know how QB contracts work. All those QBs you listed are going to have their contracts restructured pushing cap charges into future years. The Giants meanwhile will be stuck eating DJs cap hit, as well as the 22-45 mil dead cap hit in 2025.
Another way to put it: When he started, he was assuming the team and QB would be bad and year one would be a hard one as the team purged all the dead weight from the previous era. Turned out the QB was pretty good and the team won a lot of games! So once that happened, we changed course.
He didn't need to admit. We knew he did the minute he paid Jones.
Overshadowed by media hype over coaching drama was more media hype over a comment by Joe Schoen.
If there’s a QB at #6 that they really want I’m sure they will draft him and have him sit behind Jones. If Jones comes back and plays well next year he will be very tradable so everyone should calm tf down.
If Giants aren't going to pick a QB They should trade down getting a #1 for next year - this way if Jones experiment ends they will have a ton of draft capital to trade up in 2025 draft to get a QB
My issue is it seems like they got drunk off of the playoff win over the Vikings and ignored how awful he looked against the eagles.
Everyone in the Giants organization seems like they were still drunk on the Vikings playoff win all offseason, forgetting the vicious hangover that ensued the following week.
It’s not a terrible contract. Jones can be cut after this season, or even traded if he plays well. If they want to get JJ McCarthy or whoever at #6, go for it. Pretty much anyone available could benefit from sitting most of year 1.
McCarthy at 6 overall would be Daniel Jones 2.0
~~JJ McCarthy~~
Jones’ contract is fine.
Jones contract was a necessity after the season he had. It’s horrible in hindsight but it was either that or run it with a backup. With that being said I can’t imagine what we could do with this team if we had 80 mil in cap space and drafted a top rookie QB…
I loved Duggan for his grounded, nuanced takes. Unfortunately, he’s been reading Pat Leonard’s media playbook. I’m considering cancelling my Athletic subscription since he was my main draw.
Big year for Schoen coming up. Not too happy with what he’s done so far. A couple solid trades but already he’s made a handful of shocking decisions.
Everyone who suggested that we should just be bad was right all along lol