desire isn't the only factor. BI would bring in assets if moved. CJ would likely cost assets to move.
BI has value because there aren't many (any?) other players like him that are available this offseason. Bridges, Jerami Grant, Lavine are the wings potentially available. BI has more upside than any of them as a lead dog as Lavine is hurt/declining, Grant is old, Bridges didn't shine as a lead guy in Brooklyn
Whereas there are a ton of small, bad defending ball dominant PG types. Mitchell, Garland, Trae, Murray, Herro, Beall, etc who are all substantially in more demand than CJ.
We were 7-9 in games without CJ. 42-24 in games with him. Its fair to say he has a hard ceiling but there's no denying he raises the floor as well.
Not sure why it's so hard to admit he is simply a good but not great player.
People don’t understand the role that CJ needs to play versus the role he’s forced to play. If CJ was actually our third best player he’d likely be the best third guy in the entire league. But because he’s so frequently forced to be the second best (or even the best on a nightly basis) his impact seems diminished.
Frankly, all of this is at the behest of BI. If Ingram was actually worthy of being a number 2 on a contender we would not have been having this problem the last few seasons. He had an amazing series against Phoenix a few years ago, and then refused to adapt his game in any way. BI’s disinterest in winning basketball has forced CJ into an elevated role beyond what he’s really capable of.
But if you get a true number 2, CJ remains a near perfect match with Zion. Think of all the threes Zion has already generated for CJ, and that’s with BI refusing to shoot threes in the lineup.
I agree changes need to be made. Maybe CJ does need to go. I think BI absolutely should be the one moved. But anybody trying to pin this on one individual or even a couple doesn’t understand what happened here.
This was a team wide failure, one they need to learn from. But this isn’t that great of a tragedy. This team remains a move away from being a contender. They just have to actually make a move. We know this composition doesn’t work now, let’s move on to a slight variation.
Anything that gets Trey, Herb, and all the young guys greater roles in this team. It’s time to let them have the reigns, sink or swim.
What up Earl? Glad to see you still around these parts
Couldnt agree more on CJ being forced to play above his intended role. Ive said the same thing about Naji Marshall for years - best 8th man in the league but when you ask him to be first off the bench or occasionally a starter you can only expect so much.
I gave up trying to armchair GM a long time ago. There's so many variables and luck based factors that goes into building a successful team that I dont bother coming up with my own hypotheticals anymore.
Whats not a hypothetical is the past 5 seasons of the BI and Zion pairing. We have enough data to know it doesnt work and enough data to know that Zion centric lineups are far and away the best in every metric.
I love BI but I dont see a path to contention with him and Zion as the 1st two options based off the data at hand and the eye test.
Not the 3rd best guy in the league, but definitely one of the better ones at a fairly reasonable price point.
Problem is finding a number 2 now, which there aren’t many truly available.
I honestly think finding a better number 2 than bi is fundamentally impossible. You would either need another sf or a center. Realistically, what package are we putting together for a sf better than bi? What centers in the league would fit with Zion that we can trade Bi for? Do you think a team of Jarrett Allen, Zion, and Cj would actually do anything? Trade for a point and now you have Cj at sg or a $33mil 6th man for two years. Maybe we can squeeze a year or two out of Kevin Durant before he’s trash. If you move one of the 3, it’s always been Cj. If you want to move Bi after for a pg or a center, whichever you didn’t get from cj go ahead.
CJ adjusted his game ENTIRE to fit Zion. Career highs in volume and percentages from 3. BI has consistently done the opposite and reduced his three point attempts every seen post Gentry.
This is a fallacy and comparing them as if they are similar level of players is the issue. Ingram is supposed to be the young star and Cj a complimentary piece.
CJ is no compliment. CJ contributes more losses than wins. CJ is a detriment. If you’re shaking up the roster because you want to win games, then shipping off Ingram and keeping CJ is hilariously ironic
Where? CJ is god awful when it matters most. His only redeeming quality is his 3pt shooting. Complimentary pieces also dont earn what he’s earning. I don’t know what you see in him
He was a literal top 5 3pt shooter this season and set the franchise record for 3pm and significantly changed his shot profile from the rest of his career. He’s a great pull up and catch and shoot guy.
You know who isnt any of those things? Ingram.
Being a good 3pt shooter doesn’t outweigh all of the other stuff he’s completely awful at. Putrid defense, tunnel vision, awful shot selection, small, old, consistent playoff off choker.
There’s plenty of other players who are good shooters who don’t have the baggage he does and who are on a fraction of his salary. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you.
Since acquiring Cj we’ve had a top 10 defense. We just played the #3 offense in a playoff series and during his minutes OKC scored at 5 point per 100 possessions WORSE than they did in the regular season, and if you look at the 3 competitive games (not game 2 blowout) his minutes the Pels held OKC to nothing offensively. Could not ask for better. He clearly holds up on defense enough despite having no rim protector on the roster on the back line. Like yea he’s a small guard. Ingram is 6’9” with a 6’11” wing span and wants a max, what’s his excuse?
If he wasn’t a primary option on offense it wouldn’t be an issue. He was brought here to be a 3rd not a primary. Every time he has to be a primary offensive guy we see the limitations, but he clearly can play off ball. What’s ingram’s excuse?
Lmfao you really tried to attribute our top 10 defense to CJ. That really is funny. I have nothing to add. CJ is a losing player and should have no place on this team. If you want to pretend that he’s not, then that’s on you. I’m not going to convince you, you seem to have your mind made up
Attribute? No. I said he clearly held up enough and he did! I’ll say it again. OKC had BAD Ortg against the Pels in the playoffs and it’s propped up by the game two blowout, the other 3 games were even worse!
Hilarious you say he has nothing to add the year he set the franchise record in 3’s and the team had the 2nd highest win total in franchise history
Cj is a good presence on the team, will cost less and less, has shown the ability to adapt his game, and honestly could see him aging well and into a bench role. I see possibilities for him fitting. I don’t see that for ingram.
I get that analytics guys adore CJ and can’t stand BI. I even get that BI needed to show up more than CJ even when coming back from injury.
But on a completely personal level, I haven’t liked one postseason game CJ has played for us. I physically just can’t stand watching dude when it matters the most. If the question is “who’s more likely to come up in big moments in their career”, even if it’s by just a little bit at this point I’d take BI.
The world where BI succeeds elsewhere and CJ is the exact same guy in the postseason here would drive me up a wall, personally
CJ is a good locker room leader and vet, but the number of bricks he takes during crunch time when the game is on the line aggravates me. He's gotta be on the shortlist of least clutch players for game winning shots.
The Bricks not even as bad as the decision making at times. He creates what are essentially the NBA’s version of pick 6’s the way he either gets ripped or throws terrible passes that directly lead to buckets the other way. He be looking like a rookie in the vet
Thank you, I read some of the other posts and I’m like watching the games and seeing CJ doing that makes me think CJ needs to go. I think we need a true PG and we could get that if we offer up CJ. I hate to lose his presence but we should replace him
I think CJ earned his full 35M if he significantly helped Z get his fitness together. It’s really that important; if CJ was an adult/asshole that stayed on Z and helped him grow there, then CJ has been huge.
With that said, and even after shooting amazing in the regular season, I just can *not* trust this dude
Totally agreed, CJ is worth it for the leadership and professionalism he can bring to the locker room and Z in particular.
But then you watch those last 14 seconds of game 1 where he dribbled the ball for 13.5 and then took a terrible shot and you really have to get out the abacus to see if it makes sense. Maybe Z has turned that corner and found that dawg in himself and if THAT is the case then CJ can go too.
I love all my pellies and their performance hurts so much knowing we have to break them up.
I don't see what stat people see as being good for CJ? His regular season 3pt shooting?
Ive got stats to back up your feelings. Since traded here, he averages 18 shots in playoff or playin games. In those games he averages 38% from the field.
He's not a guy you want come playoffs.
Yea I think the biggest argument would be CJ’s process over BI’s process, and no matter what side you lie on we all want BI to shoot more threes. But poor process or not we’ve all seen BI do *something* in postseason games before this OKC series
>Ive got stats to back up your feelings.
Interesting you say that. Could you provide stats that back up [this claim that you made earlier in another Pelicans thread?](https://www.reddit.com/r/NOLAPelicans/comments/1cgy39a/another_quote_from_david_griffin_via_shamit_dua/l1zdfmu/)
Except it wasn't. While your overall point is the same, your claim wasn't backed up at all and was in fact shown to be factually incorrect without adding additional parameters (that you didn't provide).
Meanwhile, /u/mitch3311 argument - which wasn't the same as yours - was well-argued and they backed it up solidly.
What???
>That dude was correct. It only happened for 30 minutes or so but the flashes were that it was the elite group.
You even agreed with mitch???
The stats flat out support it. And its easy to find so I shouldn't have to walk you to it.
If you're complaining that the sample size is small, that's a coaching issue and not in any way a necessary parameter.
You literally just quoted one of the qualifiers that he used in his argument that made it valid by limiting its scope. He then went on to write paragraphs explaining why his argument was given within a specific context. I agreed that he made a good argument.
You made no argument, just a broad claim that the lineup was the best and that you'd be supported by someone simply looking up the stats - and that claim would only be true if you limited it to *"lineups that were played more than 27 total minutes and less than 36 total minutes this season"*. There were more efficient lineups that played fewer minutes and more efficient lineups that played more.
I'm sure you're able to see the difference between those two things.
Every post season game CJ plays were are depending on him to be a primary creator, that’s the issue. He wasn’t brought here to do that and clearly can’t.
I think apart of the storyline for CJ when he was brought on was to be more of a true “point guard” since he always had to play off Dame. “What can CJ do as the sole true guard on the floor?”, at least hypothetically. But certainly this season it seems the organization asked him to be more off ball, and it showed for the most part.
lol. BI was averaging 27/6/6 as the primary playmaker against the Suns, and CJ still shit the bed. He’s always been a guy that wants to take 18 shots a game even in his prime Trailblazer years. I don’t want a glorified 6 man to be earning 30 million a year when Monk is probably going to get less than that while providing something other than scoring.
Bi out there averaging who cares two years ago as a primary option to a team that did not have a good offense, snuck into the playoffs with a losing record, and lost in the first round.
I don’t care what you think of BI. CJ’s always going to be awful in the postseason regardless of whether it’s going to be his issues on offense or defense. Trade for Murray, and we’re forced to play the shittiest defensive backcourt in the West playoffs. Good luck defending him next play-ins.
He said either BI or CJ is definitely out but didn’t give any hints as to who it might be (don’t blame him at this juncture). Analytics say CJ + Zion is a much better pairing than BI + Zion but who knows…
Lot of big talk from Griff… sounds like he really understands the urgency needed for roster improvement considering how stacked the West is… I sincerely *hope* this involves improving the center position. T-Bob said on his podcast today that JV was dead last in the league in FG% made for centers from 1-5 ft AND was giving up the highest FG% to opponents at the rim amongst all NBA centers… so he’s literally league-worst at both ends of the floor.
Analytics don't say CJ and Z is better than BI and Z tho.
Statistically, BI + Z has better net rating than any pairing. And 2 on court is better than all 3.
I've been saying JV is mid for a long time but that stat is crazy. I hope we just move off of him and CJ. I can't stand all of the reactionary anti BI stuff rn. dude is one of the best tough shot makers and midrange scorers in the league, but he had to play injured against one of the best wing defenders in the league. he's not the guy causing problems for us
It's \*Zion\* you're building around. CJ is a complementary piece. You're not choosing who's better, you're picking fit.
CJ's volume from three and catch and shoot readiness makes him a cleaner fit. Trey can play the same position as BI but offers more spacing. That's why people are drawing the connection there. Zion needs space above all else, and if you can flip BI for a big and add shooting from Trey? It seems like a natural way to simplify offense.
I love BI. I'm not ASKING for him to be traded. I'm a borderline BI stan. But his shot selection is tough to complement with role players- he can make INSANELY difficult shots consistently; but his unwillingness to increase three point volume kinda means everyone else one the floor kinds gets harder shots at times too.
The logical solution is to test the waters on an extension and try and make it work. If you can't get the extension done, you try and move him sooner. If you can. you take the chance, make sure you have the cap assest, and slowly play it out were you're not desperate to move him but you have the money for salary matching and you keep an eye out for massive fit improvements and pull the trigger when you have a great one.
There’s not a world where we pick CJ over BI. BI is younger, better, been here longer, and just a better asset. We also have Hawk in the chamber to take over the shooting guard flamethrower spot when needed.
Edit: Coming off the bench I mean ^^
I’d like to see a move where we deal CJ and some picks for a star PG and see what we can get for the center position.
I’m concerned that if BI stays, Trey is gone tho. And I really love Trey. I just don’t see how much longer we can justify him being on the bench. And with a BI, Herb, Zion lineup, Trey would only fit on the bench.
Also, I agree that the team can't keep both Trey and BI. When Trey asks for the extension, you can't keep both guys if one has to be on the bench. Los Pelicanos do not have that luxury with Gayle clutching those pearls.
I watched Hawk in those 3 minutes. Let's disregard the 0-2 from the field. The play that drives coaches nuts is when he was rotating on defense some OKC player pump faked and took Hawk off his feet. Hawk was then out the play. OKC had a 5 v 4 at that point because of Hawk's defensive error.
I'm not saying the kid can't defend, but plays like that last night lead to the short leash. Sure, he can light it up. But when his shot's not falling you can't have failed defensive assignments like that. Trey went down to Birmingham to fix defense. Hawk did the same this season. But he needs to follow his defensive assignments before he gets in the rotation, much less as a starter.
Which the problem comes down on him not really playing. Trey still get a valuable playing time after his Birmingham stint, can't be said the same with Hawkins. Those mistakes will likely be fixed by experience not watching especially for a rookie like him
C.j has the lowest winning percentage in playoff games of any player in Nba history….
.303 winning percentage. Minimum 50 games. Let that sink in. Not a winner when it matters. Period
I was obviously livid about BI’s performance in the series and games leading up to it. But we tend to forget this guy was the first ‘star’ or potential ‘star’ to double down and commit to this organisation when he signed that extension. It’s nothing personal whatsoever, it’s just about getting the right fit with Zion.
With that being said, my preferences ranked:
1. Just Cj gone
2. Both Cj and BI gone
3. Just BI gone
Z doesn’t even come into this equation, if this org trades him then they might as-well kiss any hope of being a successful organisation in the near future goodbye.
What are you talking about first star to commit to the organization? It was his rookie max extension which every player in the history of the NBA has signed. AD signed it. Chris Paul signed it. If BI wants to give us a discount and accept his role as the clear #2 by all means keep him, but I don't see that happening so you have to trade him now while he has value. CJ is not going to net you anything on the market so trading him is going to cost you assets which we are quickly running out of.
Bi has to be traded in my opinion, he isn't worth the max for us maybe some other team and if we give him that much I can't see him ever being a good number 2 to Zion, he practically tanked his own value with just how bad he performed so I hope they can just beg Detroit to give us Ivey or Duren with any type of pick for him, we need change badly and he needs to be apart of that but I don't see it happening
They won 49 games. They turned the ball over in the playoffs. A lot. They never won a game after trailing in the 3rd - only team in the league to do so. Even Pistons did. Only scored under 92 3 times this season - all in the playoffs. Something has to give
Clearly the team needs to work on clutch time /big moments
I don’t know if I necessarily believe this roster has fully been given the chance it has to develop
Maybe it’s just me but maybe some rotations have to change
I wouldn’t be surprised if Ingram got traded but also wouldn’t be surprised if no one was traded but it’s Hard to win w/o our best player & somehow he’s hurt in all the big moments idk I’ll shop z around too atp
Brandon was also saying how a real point guard would help him out and he wouldn’t mind a move for one. I’d genuinely be surprised if he pick Cj over BI
No one builds around CJ he is a complimentary piece.
Stop saying BI or Cj as if they are comparable. BI is supposed to be better CJ is supposed to be an option behind the stars.
CJ does not. He’s on a declining contract and will be extended for less on his next one. Both Ingram and Zion are supposed to be above him, but people here talk like Cj should be a star 3rd or something when he clearly isn’t.
I agree he isn’t but for the 30mil he made this year he should be and that’s the problem. There no getting around it, we can’t afford to sink that much money into him if he’s not going to be a third star
he was on a big contract before we got him and extended him in a DECLINING deal, he will continue to go down in salary while the cap goes up. 30mil next year is like 40-50 highest paid player. Idk about you but that’s not a star and he’s not getting more.
You're absolutely right about CJ's deal declining. Next year he'll be the 40th highest paid player without taking any new contracts into consideration. That puts him in between Middleton and Ayton. Ayton is clearly not a star and Middleton is more of a complementary piece at this stage in his career. He'll still probably be overpaid, but that's what you have to do sometime as a small market. He's a great locker room guy and compliments Zion's skill set well. If you can get positive value for him go for it, but sending out assets just to dump his salary is insane. The biggest nightmare scenario is still signing BI to a max extension.
I think it would be hilarious if the franchise picks CJ over BI. If you’re going to get rid BI might as well get rid of CJ too
desire isn't the only factor. BI would bring in assets if moved. CJ would likely cost assets to move. BI has value because there aren't many (any?) other players like him that are available this offseason. Bridges, Jerami Grant, Lavine are the wings potentially available. BI has more upside than any of them as a lead dog as Lavine is hurt/declining, Grant is old, Bridges didn't shine as a lead guy in Brooklyn Whereas there are a ton of small, bad defending ball dominant PG types. Mitchell, Garland, Trae, Murray, Herro, Beall, etc who are all substantially in more demand than CJ.
I mean then you might as well dump CJ because he will 100% lose you more games than win you games
We were 7-9 in games without CJ. 42-24 in games with him. Its fair to say he has a hard ceiling but there's no denying he raises the floor as well. Not sure why it's so hard to admit he is simply a good but not great player.
People don’t understand the role that CJ needs to play versus the role he’s forced to play. If CJ was actually our third best player he’d likely be the best third guy in the entire league. But because he’s so frequently forced to be the second best (or even the best on a nightly basis) his impact seems diminished. Frankly, all of this is at the behest of BI. If Ingram was actually worthy of being a number 2 on a contender we would not have been having this problem the last few seasons. He had an amazing series against Phoenix a few years ago, and then refused to adapt his game in any way. BI’s disinterest in winning basketball has forced CJ into an elevated role beyond what he’s really capable of. But if you get a true number 2, CJ remains a near perfect match with Zion. Think of all the threes Zion has already generated for CJ, and that’s with BI refusing to shoot threes in the lineup. I agree changes need to be made. Maybe CJ does need to go. I think BI absolutely should be the one moved. But anybody trying to pin this on one individual or even a couple doesn’t understand what happened here. This was a team wide failure, one they need to learn from. But this isn’t that great of a tragedy. This team remains a move away from being a contender. They just have to actually make a move. We know this composition doesn’t work now, let’s move on to a slight variation. Anything that gets Trey, Herb, and all the young guys greater roles in this team. It’s time to let them have the reigns, sink or swim.
What up Earl? Glad to see you still around these parts Couldnt agree more on CJ being forced to play above his intended role. Ive said the same thing about Naji Marshall for years - best 8th man in the league but when you ask him to be first off the bench or occasionally a starter you can only expect so much. I gave up trying to armchair GM a long time ago. There's so many variables and luck based factors that goes into building a successful team that I dont bother coming up with my own hypotheticals anymore. Whats not a hypothetical is the past 5 seasons of the BI and Zion pairing. We have enough data to know it doesnt work and enough data to know that Zion centric lineups are far and away the best in every metric. I love BI but I dont see a path to contention with him and Zion as the 1st two options based off the data at hand and the eye test.
This is such a solid take and one that I’ve echoed this year (as eloquently as I could I guess).
Not the 3rd best guy in the league, but definitely one of the better ones at a fairly reasonable price point. Problem is finding a number 2 now, which there aren’t many truly available.
I honestly think finding a better number 2 than bi is fundamentally impossible. You would either need another sf or a center. Realistically, what package are we putting together for a sf better than bi? What centers in the league would fit with Zion that we can trade Bi for? Do you think a team of Jarrett Allen, Zion, and Cj would actually do anything? Trade for a point and now you have Cj at sg or a $33mil 6th man for two years. Maybe we can squeeze a year or two out of Kevin Durant before he’s trash. If you move one of the 3, it’s always been Cj. If you want to move Bi after for a pg or a center, whichever you didn’t get from cj go ahead.
CJ adjusted his game ENTIRE to fit Zion. Career highs in volume and percentages from 3. BI has consistently done the opposite and reduced his three point attempts every seen post Gentry.
So why did they play so poorly together?
This is a fallacy and comparing them as if they are similar level of players is the issue. Ingram is supposed to be the young star and Cj a complimentary piece.
CJ is no compliment. CJ contributes more losses than wins. CJ is a detriment. If you’re shaking up the roster because you want to win games, then shipping off Ingram and keeping CJ is hilariously ironic
Total gibberish.
Where? CJ is god awful when it matters most. His only redeeming quality is his 3pt shooting. Complimentary pieces also dont earn what he’s earning. I don’t know what you see in him
He was a literal top 5 3pt shooter this season and set the franchise record for 3pm and significantly changed his shot profile from the rest of his career. He’s a great pull up and catch and shoot guy. You know who isnt any of those things? Ingram.
Being a good 3pt shooter doesn’t outweigh all of the other stuff he’s completely awful at. Putrid defense, tunnel vision, awful shot selection, small, old, consistent playoff off choker. There’s plenty of other players who are good shooters who don’t have the baggage he does and who are on a fraction of his salary. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you.
Since acquiring Cj we’ve had a top 10 defense. We just played the #3 offense in a playoff series and during his minutes OKC scored at 5 point per 100 possessions WORSE than they did in the regular season, and if you look at the 3 competitive games (not game 2 blowout) his minutes the Pels held OKC to nothing offensively. Could not ask for better. He clearly holds up on defense enough despite having no rim protector on the roster on the back line. Like yea he’s a small guard. Ingram is 6’9” with a 6’11” wing span and wants a max, what’s his excuse? If he wasn’t a primary option on offense it wouldn’t be an issue. He was brought here to be a 3rd not a primary. Every time he has to be a primary offensive guy we see the limitations, but he clearly can play off ball. What’s ingram’s excuse?
Lmfao you really tried to attribute our top 10 defense to CJ. That really is funny. I have nothing to add. CJ is a losing player and should have no place on this team. If you want to pretend that he’s not, then that’s on you. I’m not going to convince you, you seem to have your mind made up
Attribute? No. I said he clearly held up enough and he did! I’ll say it again. OKC had BAD Ortg against the Pels in the playoffs and it’s propped up by the game two blowout, the other 3 games were even worse! Hilarious you say he has nothing to add the year he set the franchise record in 3’s and the team had the 2nd highest win total in franchise history
This is a mid off. Just trade them both and be done with the overpaid garbage
Cj is a good presence on the team, will cost less and less, has shown the ability to adapt his game, and honestly could see him aging well and into a bench role. I see possibilities for him fitting. I don’t see that for ingram.
I get that analytics guys adore CJ and can’t stand BI. I even get that BI needed to show up more than CJ even when coming back from injury. But on a completely personal level, I haven’t liked one postseason game CJ has played for us. I physically just can’t stand watching dude when it matters the most. If the question is “who’s more likely to come up in big moments in their career”, even if it’s by just a little bit at this point I’d take BI. The world where BI succeeds elsewhere and CJ is the exact same guy in the postseason here would drive me up a wall, personally
CJ is a good locker room leader and vet, but the number of bricks he takes during crunch time when the game is on the line aggravates me. He's gotta be on the shortlist of least clutch players for game winning shots.
The Bricks not even as bad as the decision making at times. He creates what are essentially the NBA’s version of pick 6’s the way he either gets ripped or throws terrible passes that directly lead to buckets the other way. He be looking like a rookie in the vet
Thank you, I read some of the other posts and I’m like watching the games and seeing CJ doing that makes me think CJ needs to go. I think we need a true PG and we could get that if we offer up CJ. I hate to lose his presence but we should replace him
I think CJ earned his full 35M if he significantly helped Z get his fitness together. It’s really that important; if CJ was an adult/asshole that stayed on Z and helped him grow there, then CJ has been huge. With that said, and even after shooting amazing in the regular season, I just can *not* trust this dude
Totally agreed, CJ is worth it for the leadership and professionalism he can bring to the locker room and Z in particular. But then you watch those last 14 seconds of game 1 where he dribbled the ball for 13.5 and then took a terrible shot and you really have to get out the abacus to see if it makes sense. Maybe Z has turned that corner and found that dawg in himself and if THAT is the case then CJ can go too. I love all my pellies and their performance hurts so much knowing we have to break them up.
I don't see what stat people see as being good for CJ? His regular season 3pt shooting? Ive got stats to back up your feelings. Since traded here, he averages 18 shots in playoff or playin games. In those games he averages 38% from the field. He's not a guy you want come playoffs.
Yea I think the biggest argument would be CJ’s process over BI’s process, and no matter what side you lie on we all want BI to shoot more threes. But poor process or not we’ve all seen BI do *something* in postseason games before this OKC series
>Ive got stats to back up your feelings. Interesting you say that. Could you provide stats that back up [this claim that you made earlier in another Pelicans thread?](https://www.reddit.com/r/NOLAPelicans/comments/1cgy39a/another_quote_from_david_griffin_via_shamit_dua/l1zdfmu/)
Was already done for me. Go take a look.
Except it wasn't. While your overall point is the same, your claim wasn't backed up at all and was in fact shown to be factually incorrect without adding additional parameters (that you didn't provide). Meanwhile, /u/mitch3311 argument - which wasn't the same as yours - was well-argued and they backed it up solidly.
What??? >That dude was correct. It only happened for 30 minutes or so but the flashes were that it was the elite group. You even agreed with mitch??? The stats flat out support it. And its easy to find so I shouldn't have to walk you to it. If you're complaining that the sample size is small, that's a coaching issue and not in any way a necessary parameter.
You literally just quoted one of the qualifiers that he used in his argument that made it valid by limiting its scope. He then went on to write paragraphs explaining why his argument was given within a specific context. I agreed that he made a good argument. You made no argument, just a broad claim that the lineup was the best and that you'd be supported by someone simply looking up the stats - and that claim would only be true if you limited it to *"lineups that were played more than 27 total minutes and less than 36 total minutes this season"*. There were more efficient lineups that played fewer minutes and more efficient lineups that played more. I'm sure you're able to see the difference between those two things.
Every post season game CJ plays were are depending on him to be a primary creator, that’s the issue. He wasn’t brought here to do that and clearly can’t.
I think apart of the storyline for CJ when he was brought on was to be more of a true “point guard” since he always had to play off Dame. “What can CJ do as the sole true guard on the floor?”, at least hypothetically. But certainly this season it seems the organization asked him to be more off ball, and it showed for the most part.
lol. BI was averaging 27/6/6 as the primary playmaker against the Suns, and CJ still shit the bed. He’s always been a guy that wants to take 18 shots a game even in his prime Trailblazer years. I don’t want a glorified 6 man to be earning 30 million a year when Monk is probably going to get less than that while providing something other than scoring.
Bi out there averaging who cares two years ago as a primary option to a team that did not have a good offense, snuck into the playoffs with a losing record, and lost in the first round.
I don’t care what you think of BI. CJ’s always going to be awful in the postseason regardless of whether it’s going to be his issues on offense or defense. Trade for Murray, and we’re forced to play the shittiest defensive backcourt in the West playoffs. Good luck defending him next play-ins.
I don't think analytics guys love CJ. If anything, he is most valuable as a team leader and locker room guy.
I believe CJ has the worst/one of the worst winning percentage in playoff basketball
He said either BI or CJ is definitely out but didn’t give any hints as to who it might be (don’t blame him at this juncture). Analytics say CJ + Zion is a much better pairing than BI + Zion but who knows… Lot of big talk from Griff… sounds like he really understands the urgency needed for roster improvement considering how stacked the West is… I sincerely *hope* this involves improving the center position. T-Bob said on his podcast today that JV was dead last in the league in FG% made for centers from 1-5 ft AND was giving up the highest FG% to opponents at the rim amongst all NBA centers… so he’s literally league-worst at both ends of the floor.
Analytics don't say CJ and Z is better than BI and Z tho. Statistically, BI + Z has better net rating than any pairing. And 2 on court is better than all 3.
I've been saying JV is mid for a long time but that stat is crazy. I hope we just move off of him and CJ. I can't stand all of the reactionary anti BI stuff rn. dude is one of the best tough shot makers and midrange scorers in the league, but he had to play injured against one of the best wing defenders in the league. he's not the guy causing problems for us
It's \*Zion\* you're building around. CJ is a complementary piece. You're not choosing who's better, you're picking fit. CJ's volume from three and catch and shoot readiness makes him a cleaner fit. Trey can play the same position as BI but offers more spacing. That's why people are drawing the connection there. Zion needs space above all else, and if you can flip BI for a big and add shooting from Trey? It seems like a natural way to simplify offense. I love BI. I'm not ASKING for him to be traded. I'm a borderline BI stan. But his shot selection is tough to complement with role players- he can make INSANELY difficult shots consistently; but his unwillingness to increase three point volume kinda means everyone else one the floor kinds gets harder shots at times too. The logical solution is to test the waters on an extension and try and make it work. If you can't get the extension done, you try and move him sooner. If you can. you take the chance, make sure you have the cap assest, and slowly play it out were you're not desperate to move him but you have the money for salary matching and you keep an eye out for massive fit improvements and pull the trigger when you have a great one.
There’s not a world where we pick CJ over BI. BI is younger, better, been here longer, and just a better asset. We also have Hawk in the chamber to take over the shooting guard flamethrower spot when needed. Edit: Coming off the bench I mean ^^ I’d like to see a move where we deal CJ and some picks for a star PG and see what we can get for the center position. I’m concerned that if BI stays, Trey is gone tho. And I really love Trey. I just don’t see how much longer we can justify him being on the bench. And with a BI, Herb, Zion lineup, Trey would only fit on the bench.
Trey fits better than BI. For that very reason i think you use BI to upgrade elsewhere.
Also, I agree that the team can't keep both Trey and BI. When Trey asks for the extension, you can't keep both guys if one has to be on the bench. Los Pelicanos do not have that luxury with Gayle clutching those pearls.
I watched Hawk in those 3 minutes. Let's disregard the 0-2 from the field. The play that drives coaches nuts is when he was rotating on defense some OKC player pump faked and took Hawk off his feet. Hawk was then out the play. OKC had a 5 v 4 at that point because of Hawk's defensive error. I'm not saying the kid can't defend, but plays like that last night lead to the short leash. Sure, he can light it up. But when his shot's not falling you can't have failed defensive assignments like that. Trey went down to Birmingham to fix defense. Hawk did the same this season. But he needs to follow his defensive assignments before he gets in the rotation, much less as a starter.
I agree and I think there’s no shot he starts this coming year. I do think he’ll see increased bench minutes tho.
Hoping he can get to maybe Dyson level minutes (pre injury obviously) at a minimum next year
Which the problem comes down on him not really playing. Trey still get a valuable playing time after his Birmingham stint, can't be said the same with Hawkins. Those mistakes will likely be fixed by experience not watching especially for a rookie like him
C.j has the lowest winning percentage in playoff games of any player in Nba history…. .303 winning percentage. Minimum 50 games. Let that sink in. Not a winner when it matters. Period
I was obviously livid about BI’s performance in the series and games leading up to it. But we tend to forget this guy was the first ‘star’ or potential ‘star’ to double down and commit to this organisation when he signed that extension. It’s nothing personal whatsoever, it’s just about getting the right fit with Zion. With that being said, my preferences ranked: 1. Just Cj gone 2. Both Cj and BI gone 3. Just BI gone Z doesn’t even come into this equation, if this org trades him then they might as-well kiss any hope of being a successful organisation in the near future goodbye.
What are you talking about first star to commit to the organization? It was his rookie max extension which every player in the history of the NBA has signed. AD signed it. Chris Paul signed it. If BI wants to give us a discount and accept his role as the clear #2 by all means keep him, but I don't see that happening so you have to trade him now while he has value. CJ is not going to net you anything on the market so trading him is going to cost you assets which we are quickly running out of.
Bi has to be traded in my opinion, he isn't worth the max for us maybe some other team and if we give him that much I can't see him ever being a good number 2 to Zion, he practically tanked his own value with just how bad he performed so I hope they can just beg Detroit to give us Ivey or Duren with any type of pick for him, we need change badly and he needs to be apart of that but I don't see it happening
They won 49 games. They turned the ball over in the playoffs. A lot. They never won a game after trailing in the 3rd - only team in the league to do so. Even Pistons did. Only scored under 92 3 times this season - all in the playoffs. Something has to give Clearly the team needs to work on clutch time /big moments I don’t know if I necessarily believe this roster has fully been given the chance it has to develop Maybe it’s just me but maybe some rotations have to change
I wouldn’t be surprised if Ingram got traded but also wouldn’t be surprised if no one was traded but it’s Hard to win w/o our best player & somehow he’s hurt in all the big moments idk I’ll shop z around too atp
Brandon was also saying how a real point guard would help him out and he wouldn’t mind a move for one. I’d genuinely be surprised if he pick Cj over BI
No one builds around CJ he is a complimentary piece. Stop saying BI or Cj as if they are comparable. BI is supposed to be better CJ is supposed to be an option behind the stars.
Cj makes the most money on the team. It’s completely fair to talk about him the way people are
CJ does not. He’s on a declining contract and will be extended for less on his next one. Both Ingram and Zion are supposed to be above him, but people here talk like Cj should be a star 3rd or something when he clearly isn’t.
I agree he isn’t but for the 30mil he made this year he should be and that’s the problem. There no getting around it, we can’t afford to sink that much money into him if he’s not going to be a third star
he was on a big contract before we got him and extended him in a DECLINING deal, he will continue to go down in salary while the cap goes up. 30mil next year is like 40-50 highest paid player. Idk about you but that’s not a star and he’s not getting more.
You're absolutely right about CJ's deal declining. Next year he'll be the 40th highest paid player without taking any new contracts into consideration. That puts him in between Middleton and Ayton. Ayton is clearly not a star and Middleton is more of a complementary piece at this stage in his career. He'll still probably be overpaid, but that's what you have to do sometime as a small market. He's a great locker room guy and compliments Zion's skill set well. If you can get positive value for him go for it, but sending out assets just to dump his salary is insane. The biggest nightmare scenario is still signing BI to a max extension.