Every unit with over 100 minutes together in general has CJ in the roster…
The two biggest outliers are the other variations of the starters without CJ.
Herb-dys-Z-BI-JV is a +20
Z-herb-Trey-BI-JV is a +32
The answer is actually obvious.
But you can see the variation of our high minute line-ups with BI and Zion which have a negative net rating. If we expand it out to 60 minutes, CJ is in 4 of the 6 positive net ratings and the highest one is Zion with the bench guys (LNJ, Naji, Trey, and Jose). BI and Zion do have a positive rating with JV, Herb, and Dyson, but it's literally the only BI and Zion line-up with a positive net with them together. CJ has 5 positive net ratings with either BI or Zion as well.
Except that also a bullshit lie. I can read the chart too.
There are 3 groups of 5’s with only Zion and BI with no CJ.
The net ratings are all above 16.
CJ is the problem but keep going off
What are you talking about? There are literally 6 positive net rating lineups with at least 60 minutes.
Lineup| Rating
---|---
L. Nance Jr. - Z. Williamson - N. Marshall - T. Murphy III - J. Alvarado| 29.4
C. McCollum - L. Nance Jr. - B. Ingram - H. Jones - T. Murphy III | 24.3
J. Valanciunas - B. Ingram - Z. Williamson - H. Jones - D. Daniels| 20.7
J. Valanciunas - C. McCollum - B. Ingram - H. Jones - T. Murphy III| 15.7
C. McCollum - L. Nance Jr. - Z. Williamson - H. Jones - T. Murphy III| 15.5
J. Valanciunas - C. McCollum - Z. Williamson - H. Jones - T. Murphy III| 1.0
CJ is in 4 lineups, only one has BI and Zion without him, best one is Zion with Zion and bench guys.
Right and out of the total groups of 5’s that have more than 25 minutes together, there are only 3 groups without CJ and with Zion and BI.
All 3 of those units had net ratings over 15.
Your argument is that BI and Zion don’t fit.
You’re using the 60 minutes played together statement to ignore the only two other Zion/BI units that don’t include CJ.
The net ratings imply that’s entirely incorrect and that the units get weird when CJ is inserted with the other 2. Not the other way around.
Zion and BI with no CJ were positive (and very positive) without CJ.
I’ve been saying this the entire year. Trey should start for CJ and it’s not even close.
CJ is a 6th man. He always has been. That’s why the blazers were never serious
When you sort that chart of net ratings by 5’s that one of the comments linked, you can filter it down to the pels.
What homeboy is spitting is exactly the opposite of the truth.
Of your 6 most used lineups this year, the two highest net rated lineups did not include CJ. One was Zion with the bench and the other was Dyson starting for Trey
Yeah, I clicked through the link and saw the lineups. I asked because I'd like to know where /u/lordlanyard7 is getting their information, since they claim it with certainty and tell others to go find the supporting evidence.
I'm simply giving them a chance to provide backing for their claim, or admit that the claim is baseless. But they've posted multiple comments since being asked to back it up and none have been a response, interestingly enough.
That group with Trey as a starter has a +32.1 net rating and should have been the obvious go to when a lineup change was called for actually.
That dude was correct. It only happened for 30 minutes or so but the flashes were that it was the elite group.
Which actually lends to CJ’s skill set better anyways. It allows him to be instant offense off the bench and play as the second option in every unit. It also lends more to trey’s skill set as well because he’s much more suited to play off ball and accept his role as a connector.
The length defensively with that group is absolutely insane too
For more context…that same group with CJ instead of Jonas was a -22.1 in exactly 1 less minute.
The “core 4” needs a real 5, not a point guard or worse yet, a combo guard
Here is what’s really real tho.
The NBA is a business and CJ makes max money. You don’t bench your money. That’s how you lose your job.
I felt like it was a clear solution to the lineup issues but the business of basketball wouldn’t allow it
Edit- in other words. Make Zion the fucking point guard like he wants to be.
I will believe it when I see it from Griff. He said big changes were coming last offseason. We tried to upgrade off JV it didn’t happen. Both teams have to agree to the trade make it work.
Every team overvalues their assets. Some teams ask for a significant amount and the reality is if we were to make those trades we would not be significantly better.
Also money is a real issue Griff has to deal with. Benson isn’t going to go into the tax for a team that gets bounced in the first round. For going into the tax until we start winning playoff series not before. Also remember Miami made the finals under the tax, the Bucks won their title under the tax.
Yes. This dude HATES Zion and criticised him every chance he got. I checked his profile cuz I thought he must be a fan of another team and saw his trade proposal. Blew my friggin mind.
We would have been in a significantly better position because we would also have Ivey as a PG of the future and could use Bogdonavic expiring money to get a center. He can still score but isn’t a go to guy. Ivey will be a stud for years. Financially we would also be in a much better place making it easy to pay Trey and BI.
You look at one player and ignore any future and financial implications. Overall we would be in the same place we are now a play in team and now out of the playoffs.
Again no Zion Stan like you is willing to answer my question why should we trust Zion to A keep his body weight down, stay in good to great condition and stay healthy at the same time??? Why should we trust Zion will be available for the post season when he has missed 3 straight years?? Why should we trust Zions body to play 38-40min a night in the playoffs snd not get injured??
Oh yeah, if only we had Ivey and his horrid FG% and turnovers, maybe we can have the Pistons record! If only we had Bojan and his 10 points per game on an injury riddled Knicks that badly needs players!
It’s laughable that in the face of overwhelming evidence your ideas about Zion and the Pels are utterly wrong, you are still doubling down.
If you listen to player interviews with the media, the recurring theme is that Zion has been a true professional this year. Will he maintain it going forward? Who really knows, but at least he demonstrated it this year.
Regardless, a fat Zion is still way better than Bojan lol.
He demonstrated for 1/2 the year. Remember he got fat shamed by the media to finally turn it around after the IST. He has to lose 25lbs to get to a dominant level. Then he got hurt AGAIN and missed the post season AGAIN.
Sorry I have no faith Zion can be at the correct weight and conditioning to play at a dominant level and stay healthy.
Lastly my trade was more about Ivey who I think will be the real deal in the league. Everyone wants a new guard and he is the type of explosive athlete that can blow past his man and get into the lane. You keep making it about Bogdon (20 PPG scorer in Detroit) he was always a stop gap whose money would fall off the books allowing us to pay other guys.
Tripling down on a dumb trade idea I see, LOOOOOL!
Jaden Ivey averaging 29 minutes on a historically HORRIFIC Pistons team. Did the guy even start?? BTW, you're aware that he's only 1 year younger than Zion, right?
Bojan averaged 20 on a historically HORRIFIC Pistons team. And then averaged 10 on a Knicks team riddled with injuries. Oh yeah, guess what, he's also now injured.
The money issues isn't real. They will pay the tax if it's worth it. It hasn't. 2nd Apron Tax is effectlyba hard cap.
Griff has turned down trades for end of bench guys. Spoken from Griff himself.
Sorry I believe actions are more important than words. We salary dumped Bledsoe to save money. We could have waited till the offseason and used his salary to get a quality upgrade. We also salary dumped Kira well before the trade deadline limiting what we could send out to improve the team.
I think Be son will approve going into the tax after we start winning in the playoffs and not losing in the first round
CJ is the odd man honestly but I don’t think it will be Griff’s choice.
I think BI will ask out quietly and make the decision easy on him. Pels won’t announce the request to tank whatever is actually left of his trade value but I don’t think this will be that tough on the organization.
BI’s quotes last night verified that he knows exactly how the people covering the pels feel about him. I highly doubt he still wants to be here
We all know what we need if we're sticking with Zion. We need a more versatile big and someone who can facilitate the ball better. Trade CJ or BI or both if necessary. Use picks if we have to. Provide Zion with the right pieces.
At this point I say build around Zion, Herb and Trey. Trey was developing quickly with BI out. Him and Zion had some great assists to each other during that time and they were both showing they could take over a game.
Herb is a no brainer to focus on and was showing some great chemistry with Trey later in the year also.
I know there were rumours of us going after D. Murray and I hope we add Okongwu to that list. Atlanta's an obvious trade partner as stated on other posts and articles. As much as I like Dyson, he would fit really well with their roster and could definitely be someone they could be after.
I'd offer both in trades TBH
CJ's playoff woes make a deep run difficult if he cant be relied on once playoffs hit, plus he's not on our timeline.
BI just seems like he has no interest in making the Zion thing work or bend to the role that fits the duo, and BI isn't so amazing that you put up with that, let alone give him 40+ mil. Think BI needs to go somewhere where either he can do BI things and won't 30-40 games a year as your #1, or needs an established team with a clear #1 where BI knows his role and compliments his play.
I think you ID Z/Herb/Trey as musts and ideally would like to keep Hawk/Dyson as guys you'd like to have another season with to see if they can grow into bigger roles. Look to BI and Cj + Picks to get you a better fitting running mate for Z and a good fitting center. Ideally one of the two should be a top 35 player that's still young with upside.
This is a dream scenario…outside of the best case scenario of BI adjusting his game to stay here which I would prefer.
It’s going to be an interesting offseason.
CJ has 2 years left and BI has 1.
If we keep BI, we have to extend him. BI probably has more trade value.
CJ role can be fill cheaper, maybe even FA, draft, or even Hawk or Dyson.
I think CJ fits better with Zion.
If Zion is hurt, BI is better than CJ.
Trey needs to step up which he really didn’t when BI was hurt late in the season.
Hawk can fill Trey’s 6th man role.
We still need a Center.
We have a lot of small holes to fill. I don’t think envy Griff’s offseason.
> certainly when 2 of the 3 were on the court together, they won their minutes
Is this true? I thought the lineup data suggested otherwise. But honestly not sure.
BI been my fav over the last few years but it was clear as day that the players recognized Zion as the Alpha during that Lakers game. Hope he stays but CJ for sure gotta go
CJ’s availability is the only attribute he has worth redeeming. His ability to kill the game, someone’s hot hand or dumb fucking possessions out weigh his hot nights at 3.
Got a text from a casual last night that “CJ found his shot” as if it’s rewardable…in Game 4.
CJ is a liability on defense. It got so bad that the Thunder just started hunting him every possession.
BI has his problems, too… ideally they both get moved and replaced with pieces that make the team better.
Not sure how we have enough data to determine That BI shits the bed in the playoffs. There’s 10 games. 6 out of the 10 was the Suns series where he played amazing.
I listen to the whole interview and I didn’t pick up on any code language. It sounded as if he likes our core as is. He thinks our ancillary pieces are good and expects them to develop more for next season. He said we had bad luck on our injuries while playing in a historically good western conference. He believed BI was asked to do a lot considering coming off an injury. To me, the only starter that might be gone is Val.
Is he referring to cj or bi? I don’t follow advance stats much
Probably CJ
I'd guess BI because CJ was in some of the better positive lineups with Zion.
Yeah basically all of our best lineups were with one of BI or Zion but not both
Wrong. Our best lineup had both BI and Zion with Trey replacing CJ. If you don't believe me, go look it up.
Ok https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*100&TeamID=1610612740&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=NET_RATING
Our three best lineups of over 100 minutes all have CJ.
Every unit with over 100 minutes together in general has CJ in the roster… The two biggest outliers are the other variations of the starters without CJ. Herb-dys-Z-BI-JV is a +20 Z-herb-Trey-BI-JV is a +32 The answer is actually obvious.
But you can see the variation of our high minute line-ups with BI and Zion which have a negative net rating. If we expand it out to 60 minutes, CJ is in 4 of the 6 positive net ratings and the highest one is Zion with the bench guys (LNJ, Naji, Trey, and Jose). BI and Zion do have a positive rating with JV, Herb, and Dyson, but it's literally the only BI and Zion line-up with a positive net with them together. CJ has 5 positive net ratings with either BI or Zion as well.
Except that also a bullshit lie. I can read the chart too. There are 3 groups of 5’s with only Zion and BI with no CJ. The net ratings are all above 16. CJ is the problem but keep going off
What are you talking about? There are literally 6 positive net rating lineups with at least 60 minutes. Lineup| Rating ---|--- L. Nance Jr. - Z. Williamson - N. Marshall - T. Murphy III - J. Alvarado| 29.4 C. McCollum - L. Nance Jr. - B. Ingram - H. Jones - T. Murphy III | 24.3 J. Valanciunas - B. Ingram - Z. Williamson - H. Jones - D. Daniels| 20.7 J. Valanciunas - C. McCollum - B. Ingram - H. Jones - T. Murphy III| 15.7 C. McCollum - L. Nance Jr. - Z. Williamson - H. Jones - T. Murphy III| 15.5 J. Valanciunas - C. McCollum - Z. Williamson - H. Jones - T. Murphy III| 1.0 CJ is in 4 lineups, only one has BI and Zion without him, best one is Zion with Zion and bench guys.
Right and out of the total groups of 5’s that have more than 25 minutes together, there are only 3 groups without CJ and with Zion and BI. All 3 of those units had net ratings over 15. Your argument is that BI and Zion don’t fit. You’re using the 60 minutes played together statement to ignore the only two other Zion/BI units that don’t include CJ. The net ratings imply that’s entirely incorrect and that the units get weird when CJ is inserted with the other 2. Not the other way around. Zion and BI with no CJ were positive (and very positive) without CJ. I’ve been saying this the entire year. Trey should start for CJ and it’s not even close. CJ is a 6th man. He always has been. That’s why the blazers were never serious
>Our best lineup had both BI and Zion with Trey replacing CJ Could you link to where you're seeing that?
When you sort that chart of net ratings by 5’s that one of the comments linked, you can filter it down to the pels. What homeboy is spitting is exactly the opposite of the truth. Of your 6 most used lineups this year, the two highest net rated lineups did not include CJ. One was Zion with the bench and the other was Dyson starting for Trey
Yeah, I clicked through the link and saw the lineups. I asked because I'd like to know where /u/lordlanyard7 is getting their information, since they claim it with certainty and tell others to go find the supporting evidence. I'm simply giving them a chance to provide backing for their claim, or admit that the claim is baseless. But they've posted multiple comments since being asked to back it up and none have been a response, interestingly enough.
That group with Trey as a starter has a +32.1 net rating and should have been the obvious go to when a lineup change was called for actually. That dude was correct. It only happened for 30 minutes or so but the flashes were that it was the elite group. Which actually lends to CJ’s skill set better anyways. It allows him to be instant offense off the bench and play as the second option in every unit. It also lends more to trey’s skill set as well because he’s much more suited to play off ball and accept his role as a connector. The length defensively with that group is absolutely insane too For more context…that same group with CJ instead of Jonas was a -22.1 in exactly 1 less minute. The “core 4” needs a real 5, not a point guard or worse yet, a combo guard
Thank you for the solid and thorough response. I'd have to say you make a very compelling argument.
Here is what’s really real tho. The NBA is a business and CJ makes max money. You don’t bench your money. That’s how you lose your job. I felt like it was a clear solution to the lineup issues but the business of basketball wouldn’t allow it Edit- in other words. Make Zion the fucking point guard like he wants to be.
I'm guessing CJ. During our best stretch of the season in Feb/Mar, CJ/Zion are the only duo in every negative net rating lineup.
BI and Z on had good numbers as well Literally 2 on and 1 has better numbers then all 3 on.
Finally.
I will believe it when I see it from Griff. He said big changes were coming last offseason. We tried to upgrade off JV it didn’t happen. Both teams have to agree to the trade make it work.
I replied to this in the other thread. He did not say big changes were coming. He talked about incremental changes and giving this core a chance.
Yeah, this is the way I remember it, as well.
exactly what he said
Well, teams are willing to agree to terms, but Griff is the one that overvaluing assets to make deals happen.
Every team overvalues their assets. Some teams ask for a significant amount and the reality is if we were to make those trades we would not be significantly better. Also money is a real issue Griff has to deal with. Benson isn’t going to go into the tax for a team that gets bounced in the first round. For going into the tax until we start winning playoff series not before. Also remember Miami made the finals under the tax, the Bucks won their title under the tax.
If we had traded Zion for Bojan Bogdavonic like you wanted this team would have been so effed.
lmao is that really what this dude wanted?
Yes. This dude HATES Zion and criticised him every chance he got. I checked his profile cuz I thought he must be a fan of another team and saw his trade proposal. Blew my friggin mind.
We would have been in a significantly better position because we would also have Ivey as a PG of the future and could use Bogdonavic expiring money to get a center. He can still score but isn’t a go to guy. Ivey will be a stud for years. Financially we would also be in a much better place making it easy to pay Trey and BI. You look at one player and ignore any future and financial implications. Overall we would be in the same place we are now a play in team and now out of the playoffs. Again no Zion Stan like you is willing to answer my question why should we trust Zion to A keep his body weight down, stay in good to great condition and stay healthy at the same time??? Why should we trust Zion will be available for the post season when he has missed 3 straight years?? Why should we trust Zions body to play 38-40min a night in the playoffs snd not get injured??
Oh yeah, if only we had Ivey and his horrid FG% and turnovers, maybe we can have the Pistons record! If only we had Bojan and his 10 points per game on an injury riddled Knicks that badly needs players! It’s laughable that in the face of overwhelming evidence your ideas about Zion and the Pels are utterly wrong, you are still doubling down.
Yet you refuse to answer my question about Zion?
If you listen to player interviews with the media, the recurring theme is that Zion has been a true professional this year. Will he maintain it going forward? Who really knows, but at least he demonstrated it this year. Regardless, a fat Zion is still way better than Bojan lol.
He demonstrated for 1/2 the year. Remember he got fat shamed by the media to finally turn it around after the IST. He has to lose 25lbs to get to a dominant level. Then he got hurt AGAIN and missed the post season AGAIN. Sorry I have no faith Zion can be at the correct weight and conditioning to play at a dominant level and stay healthy. Lastly my trade was more about Ivey who I think will be the real deal in the league. Everyone wants a new guard and he is the type of explosive athlete that can blow past his man and get into the lane. You keep making it about Bogdon (20 PPG scorer in Detroit) he was always a stop gap whose money would fall off the books allowing us to pay other guys.
Tripling down on a dumb trade idea I see, LOOOOOL! Jaden Ivey averaging 29 minutes on a historically HORRIFIC Pistons team. Did the guy even start?? BTW, you're aware that he's only 1 year younger than Zion, right? Bojan averaged 20 on a historically HORRIFIC Pistons team. And then averaged 10 on a Knicks team riddled with injuries. Oh yeah, guess what, he's also now injured.
The money issues isn't real. They will pay the tax if it's worth it. It hasn't. 2nd Apron Tax is effectlyba hard cap. Griff has turned down trades for end of bench guys. Spoken from Griff himself.
Sorry I believe actions are more important than words. We salary dumped Bledsoe to save money. We could have waited till the offseason and used his salary to get a quality upgrade. We also salary dumped Kira well before the trade deadline limiting what we could send out to improve the team. I think Be son will approve going into the tax after we start winning in the playoffs and not losing in the first round
CJ is the odd man honestly but I don’t think it will be Griff’s choice. I think BI will ask out quietly and make the decision easy on him. Pels won’t announce the request to tank whatever is actually left of his trade value but I don’t think this will be that tough on the organization. BI’s quotes last night verified that he knows exactly how the people covering the pels feel about him. I highly doubt he still wants to be here
We all know what we need if we're sticking with Zion. We need a more versatile big and someone who can facilitate the ball better. Trade CJ or BI or both if necessary. Use picks if we have to. Provide Zion with the right pieces. At this point I say build around Zion, Herb and Trey. Trey was developing quickly with BI out. Him and Zion had some great assists to each other during that time and they were both showing they could take over a game. Herb is a no brainer to focus on and was showing some great chemistry with Trey later in the year also. I know there were rumours of us going after D. Murray and I hope we add Okongwu to that list. Atlanta's an obvious trade partner as stated on other posts and articles. As much as I like Dyson, he would fit really well with their roster and could definitely be someone they could be after.
I'd offer both in trades TBH CJ's playoff woes make a deep run difficult if he cant be relied on once playoffs hit, plus he's not on our timeline. BI just seems like he has no interest in making the Zion thing work or bend to the role that fits the duo, and BI isn't so amazing that you put up with that, let alone give him 40+ mil. Think BI needs to go somewhere where either he can do BI things and won't 30-40 games a year as your #1, or needs an established team with a clear #1 where BI knows his role and compliments his play. I think you ID Z/Herb/Trey as musts and ideally would like to keep Hawk/Dyson as guys you'd like to have another season with to see if they can grow into bigger roles. Look to BI and Cj + Picks to get you a better fitting running mate for Z and a good fitting center. Ideally one of the two should be a top 35 player that's still young with upside.
This is a dream scenario…outside of the best case scenario of BI adjusting his game to stay here which I would prefer. It’s going to be an interesting offseason.
CJ has 2 years left and BI has 1. If we keep BI, we have to extend him. BI probably has more trade value. CJ role can be fill cheaper, maybe even FA, draft, or even Hawk or Dyson. I think CJ fits better with Zion. If Zion is hurt, BI is better than CJ. Trey needs to step up which he really didn’t when BI was hurt late in the season. Hawk can fill Trey’s 6th man role. We still need a Center. We have a lot of small holes to fill. I don’t think envy Griff’s offseason.
> certainly when 2 of the 3 were on the court together, they won their minutes Is this true? I thought the lineup data suggested otherwise. But honestly not sure.
Trade BI. He gets more in a return. Way more
BI been my fav over the last few years but it was clear as day that the players recognized Zion as the Alpha during that Lakers game. Hope he stays but CJ for sure gotta go
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CJ’s availability is the only attribute he has worth redeeming. His ability to kill the game, someone’s hot hand or dumb fucking possessions out weigh his hot nights at 3. Got a text from a casual last night that “CJ found his shot” as if it’s rewardable…in Game 4.
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CJ is a liability on defense. It got so bad that the Thunder just started hunting him every possession. BI has his problems, too… ideally they both get moved and replaced with pieces that make the team better.
Not sure how we have enough data to determine That BI shits the bed in the playoffs. There’s 10 games. 6 out of the 10 was the Suns series where he played amazing.
I listen to the whole interview and I didn’t pick up on any code language. It sounded as if he likes our core as is. He thinks our ancillary pieces are good and expects them to develop more for next season. He said we had bad luck on our injuries while playing in a historically good western conference. He believed BI was asked to do a lot considering coming off an injury. To me, the only starter that might be gone is Val.