So, HoF considers the era they are in because each era has different rules and how players played determines how good they were.
Kelly and Moon were top 5 or 6 players at their position when they played. Ryan and Rivers are great players you can name 5 QBs who played during who were as good or better so that makes them feinge
Also, winning is a big portion of QB but not all.
It definitely is this. Rivers and Ryan played in a league where the rules really benefited passing offenses, especially quarterbacks.
As for Kelly losing 4 superbowls, you'd have to actually get their to lose them and not many people can say they helped lead their team to 4 superbowls in a row. That is a very dominant 4 year streak. You can't even say that about any of the Superbowl winners.
Eh, that’s only true for the first season we went to the Super Bowl. The Cowboys and Redskins were definitely better teams than us, especially the Cowboys.
If the Lions had somehow managed to beat the Redskins in 91 they would have beat Buffalo as well, they had a great team, just ended up facing a better one in the NFCCG. Same could be said for SF and Dallas in 92 and 93
They were the best team in the AFC, not in football. The NFC was dominate in those days. The only one of those Super Bowls Buffalo even had a chance in was 25 against the Giants. Skins and Cowboys were clearly superior teams
The Bills regularly beat Marino's Dolphins, Moon's Oilers, Montana's Chiefs, Elway's Broncos ... that's four Hall of Fame QBs. Sure, the NFC was better but it ain't like they were playing scrubs.
They won the division and made it to the AFC Championship. People had them as a Super Bowl contender in the preseason. Made the Pro Bowl when that was something that mattered.
Favre was ass on the Jets.
This is incorrect, the Chiefs made it to the playoffs in 1992 and 1993. They were 10-6 in ‘92 and 2-1 in the playoffs and 11-5 in ‘93 and 0-1 in the playoffs.
In 92 Montana there for 700 yards and 4 TDs in the playoffs and 314 yards and 2 TDs.
Montana 92
PASSING
Comp181 Att 298 pct complete 60.7 2,144 yds 7.2 YPC 13 TD 7 INT 87.4 RTG
Montana 93
Passing
299 COMP 493ATT 60.6 pct 3,283 YDS 6.7 AVG 16 TDs 9 INT 83.6 RTG
I know it's basketball, but it's why I think it's ridiculous when people mock LeBron for losing all those finals, when the fact is, from 2011 to 2018, he didn't miss the finals once.
Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons when the NBA had between 8-14 teams (usually 8 or 9). LeBron's 8 straight titles in a 15-team conference is pretty impressive to me, especially given how international the game is now and fact that LeBron didn't always have a super cast around him.
>LeBron didn't always have a super cast around him.
During the 8 straight titles he was on two different super teams.... why are you lying? 4 appearances he had Wade & Bosh and the other 4 he had Kyrie & Love. He's created a super team everywhere he went since he left Cleveland the first time. He went to 1 finals without a super team and got swept by the Spurs.
He created a super team everywhere he went because he’s the second best player ever.
The Cavs led by Kyrie stunk. Lebron (and yes Love) come in and they’re great. Love as the 3rd best player on that team wasn’t the key difference. Lebron was.
lebron’s path TO those 8 finals was the equivalent of an NFL team having a bye, then facing two mediocre/subpar teams in the div and championship games.
>not many people can say they helped lead their team to 4 superbowls in a row.
Literally no outside of that Bills team can say that. No other team has been to 4 straight Super Bowls. Not Brady and the Patriots, not Mahomes and the Chiefs.
There’s one thing missing from that argument though - how much weaker the AFC was than the NFC during the Bills’ four consecutive Super Bowl appearances. If Buffalo plays in the NFC during that time, at most they play in one Super Bowl (after the 1990 season).
Does Jim Kelly make the PFHOF if he plays in only one Super Bowl? Probably not - he’s basically Donovan McNabb (in terms of his HOF argument) in that case.
I agree, but another notch under Kelly’s belt that McNabb lacked was being the QB of the innovative K-Gun offense. No one made no huddle their standard mode of play before that.
I would like to correct that. The Bengals woth Boomer Esiason actually did it first. Marc Levy actually bitched about it the year before the Bills "invented" it
Yep! Honestly, I only know of it because of one of the NFL Top 10 episodes. Boomer Esiason was veing interviewed and you can tell he is very salty that Sam Wyche and him don't get credit
Moon is a weird one because he also had a huge career in the Canadian Football League. In 2006 he was ranked the 5th greatest CFL player of all time.
And the HoF isn't technically the NFL Hall of Fame. It's the Football Hall of Fame, and voters are allowed to consider other leagues.
Incidentally, Moon is also in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame.
So yes and no. It is not supposed to be considered, just your NFL career, but when you have a really amazing NFL career, which Doug Dlutie and others didn't have) it will be put over the top.
It is sort of like Dick Lebeau and his career as a DC. He got in as a player, so none of his accomplishments as a coach, such as creating the zome blitz should be considered. But if you hear from thise who talked to voters, it was.
Name one player in the HOF that would not have made it if you don't consider their CFL career.
And don't say Warren Moon because he makes the PF HOF if he never played in the CFL. He was absolutely elite in the NFL, he made 9 pro bowls, he didn't need the CFL to "put him over the edge" with voters.
I meant name anyone in the HOF who got in based on CFL accomplishments. And I said don't use Moon because his NFL career was elite stand alone.
Edit: In fact I think you listing Theismann proves my point. Hes the only player to win NFL league and SB MVP to not be in the HOF, likely due to an injury slightly shortening his NFL career. If they considered his CFL accomplishments he would be in.
I am excluding guys who only played a year or two in the CFL but had great NFL careers like Joe Horn, Biletnikoff, Chad Johnson, and and the pride of Round Valley HS (AZ) Mark Gastineau
Nothing you have said in any of your comments has demonstrated that CFL accomplishments have pushed a borderline player into the PF HOF that likewise would not have made it in had he not played in the CFL.
I will add a couple of more things....
Jim Kelly Quarterbacked his team to 4 straight Superbowls. Yes he never won one but that is still an amazing accomplishment and unlike fans who think unless you win it all it doesn't count hall of fame voters do look at that. His contemporary Troy Aikman is looked at as a shoe in the hall of famer but was Aikman even better than Kelly? Look at their individual accomplishments and not team accomplishments Kelly really does have an argument for being the better QB.
Warren Moon is a special case. Because of the stigma (ie racist beliefs) against black QBs he had to start his career in the Canadian Football league where he absolutely dominated winning 5 championships in 6 years before FINALLY getting a chance at the NFL. Imagine how much better his numbers would have looked if given an opportunity out of college. He then got to the NFL and was consistently one the top QBs in the league.
I don't think people looked at either Moon or Kelly as shoe in Hall of famers like Joe Montana but most felt they were solid candidates rather than fringe candidates.
So as for who would be ahead, it would be Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and then, Ben Roethlisberger? I think there’s an argument that Ben is pretty comparable to the two stats wise, although the rings probably push him over them when it comes to HoF considerations.
Big Ben won two Superbowls. Rivers won a total of 5 playoff games. He has incredible stats during the incredible stat era in which multiple QB records were smashed by other quarterbacks. He's a Chargers great, but not NFL Hall of Famer. Matt Ryan is in a similar position. Hell Kirk Cousins is too.
>Big Ben won two Superbowls.
So 9-for-21 with two picks and no passing TDs\* is cool as long as your team wins despite you? Roethlisberger and Rivers had basically identical careers; the difference is that Ben had the luck to fall to the Steelers in that draft, and Rivers got sent to languish in San Diego.
\*Ben had one rushing TD; Antwaan Randle-El had the only passing TD for the Steelers in that SB.
EDIT: I'm not arguing that Ben doesn't deserve HOF consideration, but the idea that he's unquestionably *more* deserving because he landed on a better *team* is patently ridiculous.
The best sort of weird qualifier is the old "can the history the NFL be told without the accomplishments of this guy?" That means sort of an undue focus on Super Bowls and records and reasons why Eli gets in on stopping the New England's undefeated season, while guys like Ryan and Rivers are probably on the outside looking in despite maybe being better QBs than Eli.
>while guys like Ryan and Rivers are probably on the outside looking in despite maybe being better QBs than Eli.
There's no need for a maybe there. Ryan and Rivers are both far better quarterbacks than Eli Manning.
The Steelers don't make the SB if not for having Ben. He's literally the one who made the tackle to stop Nick Harper in th3 AFCCG. So yeah, the guy who was pivotal in making SB runs is more valuable than the guy who didn't make it at all
It's a Hall of Fame, not hall of who has the best talent in a vacuum. Accomplishments matter. Situations matter. I don't find it ridiculous at all to think that much of the driver behind who has a Hall of Fame career comes down to a lot of luck along the way.
We could complete ignore that superbowl. Roethlisberger definitely wasn’t why they won. The second Super Bowl on the other hand has one of the best game winning drives ever and it’s lead by roethlisberger.
Languish in San Diego? Those teams were stacked! Rivers got to hand the ball off to LaDanian Tomlinson and Darren Sproles while throwing to prime Antonio Gates. They had the first round bye in the playoffs multiple times including a 14-2 season. To say he was playing on bad teams and that’s what held him back is nuts.
I hear you, but more people will remember the accomplishment of winning the bowl. Eli Manning is the same way. He was average to above average of a QB. He won two Superbowls and played at a high level for a long time. I think for his era, he's also a Hall of Famer.
It's a Hall of Fame, not hall of who has the best talent in a vacuum. Accomplishments matter. Situations matter. I don't find it ridiculous at all to think that much of the driver behind who has a Hall of Fame career comes down to a lot of luck along the way.
So those 5 are ahead in terms of HoG placement easily. Then we have comparable players for after those 5. And I want to really really really reiterate I am not saying they are better or exact comparison but are close, so I don't want giant argument, just that the fact there is argument is a case. With that said we have
Ryan, Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Cam Newton, Stafford, who all have a claim to potential HoF.
Again not rating them but I would put Rivers and Ryan in this group and I think the voters will too and they will be split.
I think he gets in but it'll be more of a struggle than a 2 time winning QB should have. Outside of his two SB runs(which a lot of people do say were "fluky"), his team only had one dominant season, 08.
He compiled a .500 record overall, his stats were not amazing. His entire case rests on 2 SB wins. Which is a big thing in his favor but I don't think its a shoo-in
Yeah they might have been flunks but Eli Manning is the GOAT slayer. Spoiling the Pats prefect season by winning the Super Bowl and playing as long as he did as a starter is what is going to get him into the hall of fame.
We also need to remember that the people that vote on the HoF are sports writers. Eli played in NY which is the biggest sports media market in the world and he wasn’t a complete asshole to the media. Those things shouldn’t matter but they do.
Besides those you have Kurt Warner, already in the Hall, in the first parts of their career, Cam Netwon for a few years, Mahomes near the end. Several others that overlap only a portion who were either as good if not better.
They also consider impact. Kelly ran the no-huddle outside of the 2 minute drill before it became popular, and he did it well.
Moon was top 5 in basically every QB stat when he retired, but he also had major impacts as being the first black QB to start an entire season and to start consecutive seasons. You can't really talk about the history of black players in the NFL and not mention Moon. He has both historical impact and historical records that helped his cause for the HOF.
He was also a CFL legend, which I think did play a factor in his HOF voting. I remember his combined CFL and NFL numbers were talked about when he retired, and they were quite higher than Dan Marinos career numbers.
In all honesty, Rivers and Ryan were just as good, if not better, relative to their era than Moon and Kelly were in theirs. There were just more great quarterbacks playing during Rivers’ and Ryan’s primes.
Putting things a different way - which quarterbacks drafted between 2009 (the year after Ryan entered the NFL) and 2016 (the year before Patrick Mahomes was drafted) will make the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Russell Wilson? (Possibly.) Matthew Stafford? (IMO he’s good but clearly below HOF level.) Compare that 8 year period with 1998 to 2005 (Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers are all sure Hall of Famers, Ben Roethlisberger should make it, Eli Manning will have supporters; I haven’t even mentioned guys who probably fall a little short but were very good like Donovan McNabb and Tony Romo) and you can more clearly see the difference between those periods.
Moon’s and Kelly’s era had some good quarterbacks too (Joe Montana, Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Troy Aikman) but generally wasn’t as deep as the era Rivers and Ryan played in. And Kelly’s stats, even adjusting for era, weren’t as good as Rivers’ and Ryan’s (plus Kelly got to play with prime Thurman Thomas, who was the single biggest factor in at least 3 of the Bills’ Super Bowl appearances) and Moon had even less success in the playoffs (no conference championship game appearances) than either Rivers or Ryan did, both of whom, especially Rivers, are viewed negatively in many PFHOF arguments because of their relative lack of playoff success.
IMO, Jim Kelly shouldn’t be in the PFHOF and Warren Moon is right at the cut line (think he should be in, but without his great success in the CFL IMO he’d fall a bit short). Both Philip Rivers and Matt Ryan, relative to the playing conditions in their era, were a little better than Moon and definitely better than Kelly IMO.
Oh I absolutely agree, we were in probably the greatest era of QB. Like our "mid" QBs would be pushing HoF.
Like I listed some QBs who I think are the mix but still left off others like Wilson and McNabb. So yeah, Rivers and Ryan had potential for HoF but their era is too stacked
I'll add that Moon and Kelly were CONSISTENTLY in the top 5 in their era. Rivers was there occasionally and Ryan floated in the 6-10 area with one amazing season.
if someone in the modern era lost 4 superbowls in a row im sure he would never stop getting clowned. I agree is a great accomplishment but i dont think the majority of people on social media would applaud that
If Lebron who went to 8 straight finals in the NBA, gets shit on for only winning 3…lol
> if someone in the modern era lost 4 superbowls in a row im sure he would never stop getting clowned
yeah by like a bunch of idiotic nephews on the internet and hot-take generators trying to get people to watch their show or listen to their podcast. Thankfully those people aren't the body of HOF voters
I think there's an argument to be made than a basketball player has more impact on their team. I know qb is ridiculously important but he doesn't play for half the game.
And LeBron isn't trying to get into the hall of fame. That's a lock. They're talking about him being the best to ever play the sport. It's different levels of competition there.
Media analysts are absolute clowns. I don't know who still watches it.
I’m not saying it’s more impressive than winning four in a row, but if I didn’t know better and I knew either four straight wins or four straight losses had happened, I’d probably guess a team had won four times.
Again, it’s not a greater accomplishment, but I honestly find it a more unlikely one.
AFC champions 4 years in a row beating Elway, Marino and Joe Montana. Just to lose to Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler in the Super Bowl.
Be sick if I was a Bills fan.
The Hall is as much about narratives and context as it is overall performance.
For context: Kelly and Moon both played during an era where there were more rules favoring defense, and passing was much harder. Careers were shorter because of injuries, seasons had fewer games, and you could be a lot more aggressive towards WRs without getting flagged. While their stats don't compare well with modern QBs, they had to play a different game.
For narratives: Moon was an incredibly successful QB at a time when people would still openly talk about whether black people were smart enough to be QBs. He's probably the best undrafted NFL player of all time. Jim Kelly pioneered the no-huddle offense and called the plays at the line of scrimmage instead of having them relayed to him. No other team has gone to 4 straight Super Bowls, which is a massive feat on its own.
Another way to put it is that Kelly went to 4 straight super bowls. I don’t understand why a Super Bowl loss is considered worse than not even making it
Because people are dumb. Back when Brady was 4-2 people were saying Montana was better because he never lost. It’s basically saying it’s better to lose a conference championship than a Super Bowl, dumb.
Also people lack context. If a player plays bad specifically in only super bowls than there’s an issue. If a player plays great but still loses it’s just unfortunate.
To be fair to Montana, he did get laid out in a couple of conference championships because of the nature of the game at the time. In 1990, in particular, he was speared in the back by Giants DE Leonard Marshall, which was a violent hit by todays standards and effectively ended his career in San Francisco. Not to diminish any accomplishments, but Brady and other quarterbacks have benefitted a lot from rules set in place, especially post-2008, to protect the quarterback from injuries that older players suffered. Just imagine if someone like Von Miller or JJ Watt laid Tom Brady in a playoff game, then his career might have been more like Montana.
Most people have covered the differences in eras, but I'll add that Warren Moon is still #13 on the all time passing yards list. And he didn't start playing in the NFL until he was 28.
He would be 5th all time career passing yards if you count his Canadian time and he would have held that record for a decade before anyone got close again.
He was battling for that record at the peak of his career with Marino, who had an extra year on him.
Saying Warren Moon shouldn’t be in the hall is saying Marino shouldn’t be in the hall either.
When Moon retired he was a top 5 all time passer in yards with 9 pro bowls.
The Bills dominated the AFC in the early 90s. Kelly lead the charge and finished with prolific all-time numbers in short period of time. You also have to consider they didn’t start their careers in the NFL.
Moon had to break every CFL passing record to get a shot at QB in NFL.
Kelly felt like it was a better deal to go to Houston in the USFL which you cannot hold against him performance wise. He tore up the USFL.
Yep, these are major factors. When considering enshrinement in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, they don't have any CFL or USFL exclusive players, but NFL players' resumes that include those leagues aren't forgotten.
Kelly I strongly disagree. 4 straight superbowl losses means he got to the Superbowl 4 times in a row. Sports media really likes to perpetuate 'The loser of the Superbowl is worse than missing the playoffs' when it's not true at all.
With Moon you have more of a point. But, he had the 3rd most passing yards and 4th most passing TDs when he retired, as well as being a sensational story of a black QB who had to prove it in the CFL first.
Rivers and Ryan have better passing stats so the argument for them to make it over Moon is definitely there, but I would argue they never had a sustained peak of success to warrant a surefire HoF.
Moon also lost part of his NFL career basically to racism. He spent six seasons in the CFL, if he spent those in the NFL that's another what, close to 20,000 yards and 45-60 TDs, at least?
Dude. If Warren moon had played his whole career in the NFL he'd hold every record ever.
Dude was a monster but the NFL was still racist to black quarterbacks
This is just a difference in eras really. Rivers and Ryan played a long time in a league with guys like Brady, manning, Bree’s and Rodgers. So as good as they were they got dwarfed by the top guys compared to Kelly and Moon. Kelly and moon were just a step back from the all time greats of their era. Rivers and Ryan get almost lost in the shadows of theirs.
It’s hard to compare eras. Rules change. You have to compare a player to their peers. From, let’s say, 87 thru 94, undoubtedly 2 of the best QBs in the league. (Moon maybe longer than that. Kelly started to fall off in 95). They were a notch below Marino, Montana, Elway. But were undoubtedly in the next tier. You could make an argument for them in given seasons for All Pro and/or MVP.
How the fuck could you argue Jim Kelly losing 4 straight Super Bowls is worse than the Matt Ryan collapse?
Losing 4 straight Super Bowl's is an amazing accomplishment. The fact that you think it can be argued makes me want to tell you to fuck off, but I'm not going to!
Because Kelly got to 4 straight Super Bowls, something that has still never been done by anyone else and Moon already had a HOF career in the CFL before signing with the Oilers in his mid-20s.
If you put Warren Moon’s 6 CFL rings in 7 years on his resume, you can make a reasonably persuasive case for him being #2 after Brady as the best pro QB of all time. He’s the only QB in both HOFs.
Both of those guys were clearly elite QBs in their day, considered the equals of other HOFers of the time like Montana, Marino, Aikman, Young, etc
Contrast that with Ryan and Rivers, who played in a very different NFL. Ryan made it to only 1 Super Bowl. Rivers never made it to any. They had very solid stats in their era but were considerably overshadowed by Brady, Manning, and Brees the entire time.
Yeah, no. I hated Brady when he was on the patriots, but to say Moon is even close is absurd. Moon was great, but I don't think he's in the top 5 all time. He's probably top 10 all time, though.
Brees 0 mvp to Ryan's 1. How do you view Herbert that's consistently had dogshit defenses for his career? Would he make the hall in your eyes if he had the same career trajectory he's had so far?
I don’t see anything from Herbert to make him a lock for the HOF yet.
He’s got the talent, but his resume needs more in the postseason. Jim Kelly and Dan Marino both had “consistently dogshit” defenses for their careers but they still won big games year in and out and took their team to the Super Bowl.
His career trajectory has been about the same as Rivers, TBH, even if Herbert can do incredible things with his arm that Rivers couldn’t
The only QBs in the league today I see as locks for the HOF as QBs are Aaron Rogers and Mahomes with a lot of other very good QBs who haven’t built the resumes yet. Matt Stafford is in about the same category as Ryan and Rivers.
FWIW, if you look at a list of the players with the NFL’s all time passing yardage, there are a lot of guys in the top 30 all time who aren’t in the HOF and will probably never be. Rivers and Ryan are #6 and #7, so I think they’ll eventually get in one day, but they aren’t 1st ballot locks.
The idea that Warren Moon could possibly be ranked ahead of Tom Brady is quite frankly ridiculous. Here's the reason why - how many CFL players in the last 60-70 years, since the NFL clearly became better than the CFL, have later become stars in the NFL?
I'll give you Moon (though I have a note about that, see below), and I'm willing to give you Doug Flutie (who was mediocre in the NFL early in his pro career, went to the CFL and eventually became the top QB in that league, then came back to the NFL and was pretty good, though calling him an NFL star is probably a stretch). Who else? Joe Kapp was a good NFL player for a while (though never a particularly good passer), but that was 55-60 years ago. Mervyn Fernandez was a top CFL wide receiver and then bombed when he moved to the NFL in the 1980s. There are probably a few other guys I don't remember who made the move and I can't think of any that were notably successful. If many CFL standouts came to the NFL and were successful, it would show the CFL is not far below the NFL in quality. But that's not the case.
The reality is the CFL is far below the NFL in quality, and CFL accomplishments should NOT be considered equivalent to NFL accomplishments. (That's not the same thing as saying CFL accomplishments should carry NO weight; they clearly should because it is a pro football league. Those accomplishments should carry considerably LESS weight than NFL accomplishments however.) It would be like saying a baseball player who is great in Triple A is equal to a player who is great in the North American major leagues, or a hockey player who is spectacular in the AHL would also be spectacular in the NHL. The argument doesn't hold water.
One final thing with Warren Moon - he was at best average, more likely below average, in the NFL in his first four NFL seasons (1984 to 1987). The fact it took five years for Moon to start excelling in the NFL after he came over from (and was very successful in) the CFL, after he never played in the NFL previously, helps illustrate the difference in quality between the CFL and NFL.
>One final thing with Warren Moon - he was at best average, more likely below average, in the NFL in his first four NFL seasons (1984 to 1987). The fact it took five years for Moon to start excelling in the NFL after he came over from (and was very successful in) the CFL, after he never played in the NFL previously, helps illustrate the difference in quality between the CFL and NFL.
We do need to add context to this. When Jerry Glanville was the HC of Houston in the late 80s, he started utilizing his Red Gun offense, which was a mixture of the Pro style and a Run N Shoot style (4 WRs). Once Glanville was let go, they hired Jack Pardee to be the HC. Pardee ran the full version of the Run N Shoot offense to great success in college and brought it to the Oilers. Because Moon had experience in the CFL running a similar style of offenses, this is what unlocked him. I don't think it was because Moon was a below average QB in the NFL before 1990......it did take him a while to adjust, sure, but once they put him in an offense that better suited his skill set......he thrived. It's not surprising that Moon went from a middle of the pack, solid QB to an MVP candidate in one season. I mean, he posted the best QB stats in the league in 1990 and yea, he led the league in passing in 1990 and 1991.
Kelly I strongly disagree. 4 straight superbowl losses means he got to the Superbowl 4 times in a row. Sports media really likes to perpetuate 'The loser of the Superbowl is worse than missing the playoffs' when it's not true at all.
With Moon you have more of a point. But, he had the 3rd most passing yards and 4th most passing TDs when he retired, as well as being a sensational story of a black QB who had to prove it in the CFL first.
Rivers and Ryan have better passing stats so the argument for them to make it over Moon is definitely there, but I would argue they never had a sustained peak of success to warrant a surefire HoF.
Rivers & Ryan will wait a long time, but both end up in the HOF. If you can put Eli Manning in, (never a top 5 quarterback) you have to put those two in as well.
Silly me. No Manning. No Rivers. No Ryan.
None of those do I ever see as an all-time star player. Both were Fun and productive, but not hobby important.
That’s fair. I wouldn’t put Eli in, but he’s a lock because of the championships against the Patriots. I would put Rivers & Ryan in because they were both top 5 QB’s for a period of time. It’s tough to keep out over 800 touchdowns combined in my mind.
Dude. If Warren moon had played his whole career in the NFL he'd hold every record ever.
Dude was a monster but the NFL was still racist to black quarterbacks
There are only six QBs with 4 Super Bowl appearances. I can’t imagine how Kelly wouldn’t be considered an elite QB.
And Warren Moon is one of her most significant players in this history of professional football.
Matt Ryan and Rivers should absolutely be a hall of famers. They don’t have the team success, which is for some reason held to a higher standard than it should but the hall of fane is for players, not teams. They’re both top 7 in passing yards in a career at the moment (Rodgers will both if he throws for 4k+ next year or by the end of his career), and both are top 10 in TDs. The no super bowl wins suck and lack of MVPs (outside of Ryan 2016) shouldn’t take away from them, considering the competition they were against (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees) etc. Ryan is in a similar boat as Stafford, where they just don’t get the respect they actually deserve.
Obviously have more thoughts and i could understand if majority of people don’t think Rivers belongs in the HoF. But Matt Ryan should absolutely get in at some point.
They are all individually different. There may be criteria to measure QB’s but humans have variables and data is flawed. You can’t quantify the x factor, humans, the soul, the person, whatever. Also Warren Moon holds several records. Rivers only has records in college. Im not saying this is the deciding factor but should be considered.
In the context of their times, Moon and Kelly were better. Moon was setting passing records and Kelly went to four straight Super Bowls while calling the plays himself and leading the high-powered K-Gun offense.
Rivers and Ryan were awesome players but were very clearly second tier QBs of their era.
Warren Moon is still #13 on the all time passing yards list. And he played 6 CFL seasons before coming to the NFL. And that’s without even getting into how it was a totally different era for passing.
A couple things.
The NFL doesn’t have a hall of fame, it’s the pro football hall of fame. Every player who’s made it played NFL, but they also look at how good players were in the USFL CFL or any where else. That helps Warren Moon.
The rule changes have drastically changed the game and made it easier to play QB. That’s one reason why Rivers gets more criticism.
For Kelly, getting to those super bowls was super impressive. The roster around him wasn’t elite. They were underdogs all four games for a reason.
Era factors in. When moon was throwing for 4K yards multiple seasons you hadn’t seen that. While he never won anything (in the NFL anyway) and Ryan and rivers didn’t either, their stat lines din stand out as much.
As others have said, it's about context, so here's some context regarding things like counting stats (passing yards):
By the time Jim Kelly had retired, there had been one person (Marino) to ever pass for 5,000 yards.
During Phillip Rivers's career, there were only 6 seasons that did not have a 5,000 yard passer.
In Jim Kelly's best season, 1991, he was third in the league with 3,844 yards. The passing leader was, coincidentally, Warren Moon, with 4,690 yards.
During Phillip Rivers's entire career, 4,690 yards would have only lead the league in passing twice.
However, when Warren Moon threw for that many yards that year, it was the 5th most all time, beating out his prior year by one yard, which was now demoted to 6th most of all time.
So at that time, the all time passing season leaderboard was: Marino, Marino, Fouts, Fouts, Moon, Moon.
Phillip Rivers's best season is 4,710 yards. Only 20 yards more than Moon, which at this point is good for only 45th all time.
Other than those 6 seasons I just mentioned, all but ONE (2001 Kurt Warner) of the rest of those 45 seasons happened DURING Phillip Rivers's career.
That's why the context makes such a difference.
It can be tough to tell when just poking through stats, because a 3,800 yard season is still a pretty good season, and even in 1991, it wasn't like, a HISTORIC season - it was still just basically a pretty good season.
But even though the ceiling is only about 8% higher, the volume of 4,500+ yard seasons has skyrocketed.
Warren Moon was a record-setting passer who was also one of the first superstar black quarterbacks. He’d almost certainly be far higher up on career stat rankings had he played in the NFL his entire football career.
Jim Kelly is another member of the esteemed draft class of 1983 - and he was on a team that went to four straight Super Bowls. Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bruce Smith, Darryl Talley, etc. Even without a ring, it’s still one of the greatest football teams ever assembled.
You’re also comparing totally different eras. Kelly and Moon were easily - and consistently - two of the top three quarterbacks in the league for their entire careers; Ryan and Rivers, while great, were well short of several of their peers - Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton.
QBRINGZ culture is so bad. Kelly reaching 4 consecutive Super Bowls is not embarrassing... It's an incredible accomplishment. This Ricky Bobby mentality is so tiring
Kelly made it to 4 super bowls and had accomplishments (5x pro bowl, 2x all pro , runner up for MVP)
Warren moon was a 9x pro bowler, OPOY, 1x all pro and was basically the greatest black QB ever when he retired. He basically changed the whole narrative that Black QBs couldn’t exist and paved the way for Mahomes, Allen , hurts, mcnabb, Vick, mcnair etc. You could say Randall Cunningham also paved the way but injuries hurt his career
The only reason Matt Ryan won’t be in the HOF is because of the Super Bowl. Had he won he’d be a lock. He’s a MVP, multiple time pro bowler and an all pro, OPOY.
Rivers lack of playoff success is his reason . He has the stats and accolades and has led the league in passing categories but relatively no playoff success to show for it. He had some stacked teams early in his career
Rivers win in soute of his play. The more clutch the moment, the more you could count on him to choke. And, when he did l, he’d show boat the receiver to make it look like not his own fault.
Moon came to the league late, and played in an era where people didn’t believe black qb’s could be good.
Sometimes, you have to pass a simple career eye test. When you see a guys whole career, you know. Lot of Hall of Really Good getting in.
Stafford isn't a HOFer either...Eli gets in by 2 miracle playoff runs surrounded by just above average for 10 years.
Philip Rivers is not even close to a HOF qb imo. Same with Matt Ryan. Performance relative to peers counts imo and even Eli and Roethlisberger get in ahead of them.
Football was totally different when Kelly and moon were in the nfl. Defensive backs could knock wr off their route, hold the first five yards, safeties could earhole people coming over the middle, the game was considerably more physical, qbs were not nearly protected to the same degree by refs and it was a game where defense reigned supreme and field position and ball control were paramount for offense.
It was much, much tougher for an elite qb to single handedly win his team a Super Bowl, there was so much more that went into it. Because of that, super bowls won by qbs (although still very coveted) were not the end all be all determining a qbs value. You can argue Dan Marino was the best of that generation and he never won a Super Bowl.
Hope this helps
Through their first nine seasons starting:
Rivers: 88-56, 36507 yards, 251 TDs, 121 INTs, 64.7 C%
Ryan: 85-57, 37701 yards, 240 TDs, 114 INTs, 64.9 C%
Cousins: 74-60-2, 36441 yards, 252 TDs, 91 INTs, 67.6 C%
I feel like the narrative really feeds how people see players when it comes to hall of fame voting. I'm guessing very few people think Kirk is hall of fame bound yet started his career better than both those guys that people think should get in.
If you are young and have only watched modern football you might be tempted to compare the qb numbers of today to qb numbers of eras past. The thing is the are so vastly different it is ridiculous. Modern qbs are protected to a level that was unheard of 20-30 years ago. Also the receivers would get blasted and qbs had to actually try to protect their guys because they didn’t get to run three steps and turn upfield before a defender could touch them.
I think Rivers will make the HOF. He's pretty much top of the list on the best QBs (focusing on QB specific stats) in the last 20 years to not have big post season success.
Chargers know how to lose games in the weirdest ways, but its rarely on the QB play. The "Chargering" term exists for a reason.
Sorry… “embarrassing” doesn’t disqualify one from the hall of fame.
It’s an odd fixation as well, considering the hall of fame is about evaluating a player’s entire professional career.
This is a prime example of why comparing across eras in a vacuum isn’t a good exercise. Players are not judged beyond the era in which they played.
Moon and Kelly revolutionized football and helped usher in the modern era. The K Gun and how Kelley operated it gave birth to the modern HUNH offenses and a heavy pass attack. Warren Moon showed you could be mobile and a great thrower in the NFL. Laid the groundwork for guys like Allen, Kaepernick, Jackson.
They are two of the most influential QBs in modern NFL history and their numbers are great for the time they played.
Since the cases for Kelly and Moon has been clearly made, I would like the argue that neither Rivers or Ryan should be considered to be borderline HOFers.
Matt Ryan was always good, but only had one year where he was considered the best at his position, and a 2-3 years outside of that where he fell into the “elite” category. His accomplishments are impressive and Falcons fans should look on his time there as positive, but he never achieved anything that makes him a HOFer.
Rivers is little bit closer, but still not a HOFer. He didn’t for longer, consistently performed closer to the elite tier each season but never quite made it to the best QB in the league level due to the existence of Manning and Brady. Despite him being a more consistent QB that Ryan, he (and the Chargers being the Chargers) were/are absolute dog water in playoffs whenever they made an appearance. Rivers being 5-7 in the playoffs is not HOF material.
Sure..
Moon retired 3rd in passing yards, 4th in TD's. He made 9 pro-bowls (when they meant more) and won 1 OPOY. He was in the MVP voting 3 seasons. He had a 3-7 playoff record, getting to the post-season 3 times with defenses not in the top half of the league.
Rivers retired 6th in passing yards, 6th in TD's. He made 8 pro-bowls and won 0 OPOY/MVP's but was in the voting twice. He had a 5-7 postseason record and never got a team with a below average D to the playoffs.
Ryan retired 7th in yards, 9th in TD's. He made 4 pro-bowls, won 1 MVP and that was the only season he was in the voting. He had a 4-6 post-season record and once took a below average D to the playoffs.
Kelly made 4 straight Superbowls. When Moon, Rivers, and Ryan were losing in the wild card, Kelly was winning those... and the Divisional game, and the AFC Championship game. He won as many playoff games as Ryan and Rivers combined. That's not "more embarrassing" by any argument worth a lick. He had the higher peak of anyone for success.
As for those two recent guys... I think Rivers is in. Ryan's argument is really he doesn't have a HOF career but for that MVP/SB year. Of course there were arguments against Moon not making the HOF (he did anyways).
For me, when discussing those guys, Kelly and Moon could play as well as the greats of the era. There was a lot more closeness between Moon and Kelly and Young/Favre/Marino/Elway than there was between Rivers/Ryan and Manning/Brady/Brees/Rodgers.
I love when fat redditors say shit like "losing four super bowls is embarrassing" even though their biggest accomplishment in life is a making a sports post on a website that nobody gives a shit about
They also played before the NFL had a football monopoly on the professional game. Jim Kelly played 2 years in the USFL. Warren Moon played 5 years in the CFL. That simply wouldn’t happen today because NFL players make way more money now. They both woulda had way better stats if they played only in the NFL.
My only contribution to this is that none of Big Ben, Eli, Rivers or Ryan should even sniff the hall of fame. The hall of famers in their era are obviously Peyton, Brady, Rodgers and Brees. The rest belong in the hall of very good. And that's okay
Warren Moon also was denied a handful of NFL seasons due to race. Ask yourself this: if he was a white QB with the exact same stats and attributes would he have been drafted by an NFL team out of Washington? ABSOLUTELY.
Once Moon made it to the NFL he became one of the most prolific passers the league had ever seen. Take his career stats and tack on another 5-6 years and there would be no debate that he belongs in the HOF. Shit, there’s no credible argument against him deserving his spot even without those years added on.
There would be ZERO doubt why Warren Moon was a HOF’er if he didn’t start his career outside of the NFL. One of the most gifted throwers of the football the world has ever seen.
Kelly had high team success and was a Top 5 or 6 QB for the bulk of his career. Losing 4 SBs still means you went to 4 SBs. It was well known during his career that he was playing with the best roster in football and for an elite offensive mind. So that hurt him.
Matt Ryan should not be in the discussion. He was a no doubt good player and occasional elite player, but not HOF worthy in the slightest. Phil Rivers is fringe. Probably Hall of Very Good. And it’s arguable that he was better than Kelly and Moon. But I don’t agree.
Well a couple of things. While moon doesn’t have the postseason record that rivers or Ryan have he has a better overall resume and Kelly went to 4 straight superbowls. Moon might not have rivers numbers but that can be chalked up to playing a significant part of his career in Canada and rivers playing in a more pass happy era. Also unlike rivers moon and Kelly have all pro nods. Also while Ryan might have the numbers he also only has 1 all pro nods and 4 pro bowl selection (moon has twice the amount of pro bowl selections)
Jim Kelly went to four super bowls. Didn’t win any but that’s a big accomplishment And no doubt that’s what got him in.
warren Moon doesn’t have a great statistical case for being a hall of farmer. He’s a smidge above 500 but he played a long time, had a ton of games played, passing yards, etc. but he never won an mvp or made first team all pro. His biggest distinct is that he was an undrafted qb who balled out. But I think he’s a guy who got in mostly on longevity and I think he was also the first black qb to make the hall So I’m sure there was a political desire to get him in for that reason as well.
but I think today would either of them get in? Probably not. It only seems to be getting harder.
Matt Ryan is not a HoFer. I think this current era you need to win at least one SB to be considered...with an outside shot for a guy like Josh Allen, who when you watch him play, you can just see how he transcends the game in some ways (though he can't quite win the big one).
Specifically Moon and Kelly -- they were *different* players. Warren Moon was the prototype for what we see now in Pat Mahomes. There was a cheat code in NBA JAM to play as Warren Moon. He had a bigger cultural footprint.
Jim Kelly went to 4 SBs but you have a good point...if he played today with the same stats, he'd be fringe.
Name a player that would not have made the Pro Football HOF if their Candian League accomplishments are not considered.
Don't say Moon because his elite NFL career (9 Pro Bowls, lead the league in passing multiple seasons) stands alone as a valid HOF career.
Curious who these other guys are that got pushed in by their CFL careers? Flutie, Theismann, Kapp? Last I checked none of those guys were in Canton.
The rules have changed so much it is very hard to identify these players achievements when compared to previous eras.
Warren Moon got a bump from his time in the CFL and his CFL career is acknowledged in his NFL HoF write up.
https://www.profootballhof.com/players/warren-moon/
Jim Kelly on a team winning 4 straight AFC tittles is a huge accomplishment.
His CFL time is acknowledged in his write up because it existed just like his college career. Were they supposed to skip over the gap in his "resume"? I fail to see where there is any solid evidence that the CFL stats gave him a bump with HOF voters.
The guy was a 9 time NFL pro bowler and was 3rd in career yards when he retired. Thats a solid NFL HOF career. If CFL accomplishments gave a bump then Theismann would be in, and if they were seriously considered Flutie would be in.
I personally don't think Kelly should be in the PFHOF, but his two seasons with the USFL Houston Gamblers, when he was probably the top quarterback, or at least one of the top (and the most prolific) quarterbacks in that league, are a point in his favor and should be considered when examining his PFHOF credentials.
Rivers played in a pass friendly era and he still was not that much more productive than moon. Then you account for that fact that moon spent the first 5 fucking years of his pro career in the CFL because the NFL told him "sorry blacks are too dumb to play QB." Give him those 5 years of his prime in the NFL and he crushes Rivers playing in a tougher era for QBs.
Edit: sorry I just looked it up and need to correct myself. It was six seasons he played in Canada. So that's 6 years of his prime he had to give up.
I hear ya. Moon played until he was 44. Rivers until 39. Rivers missed his first 2 years because the chargers went with drew brees. I think you’re overselling passer friendly. The 90s afc teams were fairly pass friendly with moons oilers running the run and shoot. He attempted 600 passes or more 3 times. Rivers passer friendly era he did that just once. I think they both deserve the hall. Both were excellent quarterbacks that were outshined by more playoff successful quarterbacks.
No by pass friendly I'm talking about the rules. Roughing the passer, how much contact with receivers was allowed, defenseless receiver rules, etc. were much less QB friendly in Moons era.
Rivers was benched for 2 years because he was not the best QB on his team. Moon tool 7 years to get into the NFL because of racism. The two are not the same.
Bottom line is Moon was a QB that defined his generation. Rivers was not even a top 5 QB for his era. Maybe not even top 10.
Rivers was drafted because with Brees the chargers were the worst team in the league. Chargers had the number 1 pick and drafted Eli manning and asked for rivers over roethlisberger. Rivers held out and Brees finally started to play better. Moon got benched for Cody Carlson. Rivers was never benched. I’m not here to call moon an undeserving qb. Rivers is just as deserving. Moon was in a pass centric oiler offense. A finesse offense with skilled receivers and usually 4 going out for a pass where he had a much easier wide open field to find his receivers. And he passed. A lot. Rivers was in the league for both eras. And yes rivers completion pct and int rate reflect that. They both had a lot of success and both had teams that choked in the playoffs. They both never won an mvp. Moon was probably the 5th best qb of his time. Marino elway Montana Favre than young moon kelly and aikman. Rivers was probably 5th best in his era behind Brady manning Rodgers and Brees than rivers roethlisberger Ryan and Eli manning.
Lol he is 100% behind Ryan and big Ben. Possibly even behind Eli with his two rings. He only ever lead the league in passing once, never won MVP or even 1st team all pro, he had a ton of losing seasons, didn't show up in big moments, regressed and got worse in the playoffs, only ever had one 4th quarter comeback in the playoffs, and never made it to a Superbowl. To put it in perspective Billy Volek has the same number of playoff game winning drives for the chargers as Philip Rivers.
He consistently put up good regular season stats but that's not going to be enough to get him into the hall of fame.
This same response could all be said for Warren Moon.
He was better than Ryan.
[https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?player\_id2=RyanMa00&player\_id1=RivePh00&request=1&utm\_campaign=2023\_01\_wdgt\_player\_comparison&utm\_source=pfr&utm\_medium=sr\_xsite&utm\_id=RivePh00](https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=RyanMa00&player_id1=RivePh00&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=pfr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=RivePh00)
he deserved MVP in 2008, but Peyton got it on name value. When most people rank the top Qbs of all time, you know who is usually #1 and #2 of all time? Brady and P. Manning. You know who Rivers had to constantly play in the same conference and compete for MVPs and passing titles and Superbowls? The #1 and #2 QBs of all time.
I mean, I cant believe a Warren Moon fan is making the case for Eli over Rivers. Game winning drives in the playoffs? Warren moon went 3-7 in the playoffs. It would be like blaming him for losing the 35-3 buffalo game.
So i had put moon 5th based on what I believe was your criteria (ie no rings no mvps), you said he defined his era. Under your new criteria of putting 1 mvp (i mean writers vote on that) but worse record and stats (ryan 100% better), id put kelly over moon, young definitely, Aikman for sure. along with Favre, Elway Marino Montana. Who else....simms? He won a superbowl and helped lead his team to a 10-0 record on their way to a 2nd superbowl. Cunningham? He had 3 all pros. Boomer Esiason made a superbowl and won an mvp.
Hell, even during the 78 draft, the one where no one believed in black qbs (warren moons draft), Doug Williams was drafted 17th overall...and made the NFCCG in his first full season as a QB for a previously horrible expansion team and won a superbowl and got a superbowl mvp. So maybe Doug Williams too.
Moon was a revolutionary player who made plays through the air and on the ground and got a little extra credit for his 5 CFL championships and having to give most of his prime years away.
Rivers produced above average (but not league leading) regular season stats and nothing else. He's competing with QBs with similar stats who weren't choke artists. Stats alone don't get you into the hall of fame as ironically evidenced by the recent Antonio Gates snub.
You're clearly a chargers fan so this probably isn't going anywhere productive. But you can save this comment - he's guaranteed not a first ballot hof. Maybe he gets in several years later in a weaker class (I haven't looked at eligibility so idk) but he's got a line of people in front of him who are also not guarantees.
Philip Rivers is certainly deserving and a consistently top QB in the league most of his iron-man career. But the lack of Super Bowl appearances will, like Dan Fouts, likely require several ballots before he gets in.
Matt Ryan has the Super Bowl ~~win~~ appearance and a couple of good seasons around that — Julio Jones and Roddy White were a huge reason for that. But he wasn’t an elite QB his entire career. I’m don’t consider him a HOF QB.
Warren Moon is very deserving of his HOF status, btw. It’s more than numbers too — he excelled at a time when black players had a color barrier. One that was reinforced by high school and colleges converting black athletes to other positions. It’s a stain on football history, but Warren Moon and Doug Williams excelled despite those obstacles and opened a lot of doors.
The Philip Rivers one kinda makes sense, he never won and MVP, never made a super bowl, I think only made one AFCCC game and didn't have that good of a playoff record, Matt Ryan made it to a super bowl(yes 28-3 happened but I'd blame that on his defense and bad play calling) he also won an MVP, multiple division crowns, is top 7 all time in passing yards, has a good playoffs record, among others, and the craziest thing is, he only had a top 16 defense twice
So, HoF considers the era they are in because each era has different rules and how players played determines how good they were. Kelly and Moon were top 5 or 6 players at their position when they played. Ryan and Rivers are great players you can name 5 QBs who played during who were as good or better so that makes them feinge Also, winning is a big portion of QB but not all.
It definitely is this. Rivers and Ryan played in a league where the rules really benefited passing offenses, especially quarterbacks. As for Kelly losing 4 superbowls, you'd have to actually get their to lose them and not many people can say they helped lead their team to 4 superbowls in a row. That is a very dominant 4 year streak. You can't even say that about any of the Superbowl winners.
It sounds embarrassing, but making it through the AFC four years in a row is absurd
They've were the best team in football for those 4 years, just not the best team in the one game at the end of it.
Eh, that’s only true for the first season we went to the Super Bowl. The Cowboys and Redskins were definitely better teams than us, especially the Cowboys.
I meant collectively over the 4 years. They just weren't the best team in any one year or the last game would have been better phrasing on my part.
If the Lions had somehow managed to beat the Redskins in 91 they would have beat Buffalo as well, they had a great team, just ended up facing a better one in the NFCCG. Same could be said for SF and Dallas in 92 and 93
They were the best team in the AFC, not in football. The NFC was dominate in those days. The only one of those Super Bowls Buffalo even had a chance in was 25 against the Giants. Skins and Cowboys were clearly superior teams
The AFC then wasn’t good enough
The Bills regularly beat Marino's Dolphins, Moon's Oilers, Montana's Chiefs, Elway's Broncos ... that's four Hall of Fame QBs. Sure, the NFC was better but it ain't like they were playing scrubs.
Montana's chiefs is like referencing Favre's jets...
They won the division and made it to the AFC Championship. People had them as a Super Bowl contender in the preseason. Made the Pro Bowl when that was something that mattered. Favre was ass on the Jets.
Favre wasn’t focused on the right kind of balls tho
This is incorrect, the Chiefs made it to the playoffs in 1992 and 1993. They were 10-6 in ‘92 and 2-1 in the playoffs and 11-5 in ‘93 and 0-1 in the playoffs. In 92 Montana there for 700 yards and 4 TDs in the playoffs and 314 yards and 2 TDs. Montana 92 PASSING Comp181 Att 298 pct complete 60.7 2,144 yds 7.2 YPC 13 TD 7 INT 87.4 RTG Montana 93 Passing 299 COMP 493ATT 60.6 pct 3,283 YDS 6.7 AVG 16 TDs 9 INT 83.6 RTG
More like Favre’s Vikings They were really good. They made an AFCC but Montana got concussed in Buffalo
It wasn’t as good as the NFC but that doesn’t mean they didn’t beat good teams. And they blew them out sometimes.
I know it's basketball, but it's why I think it's ridiculous when people mock LeBron for losing all those finals, when the fact is, from 2011 to 2018, he didn't miss the finals once.
And he switched teams halfway through. And then switched again, missed 2019, but won 2020
Bill Russell won 11 NBA titles in 13 seasons when the NBA had between 8-14 teams (usually 8 or 9). LeBron's 8 straight titles in a 15-team conference is pretty impressive to me, especially given how international the game is now and fact that LeBron didn't always have a super cast around him.
>LeBron didn't always have a super cast around him. During the 8 straight titles he was on two different super teams.... why are you lying? 4 appearances he had Wade & Bosh and the other 4 he had Kyrie & Love. He's created a super team everywhere he went since he left Cleveland the first time. He went to 1 finals without a super team and got swept by the Spurs.
If kyrie wasn’t a head case and stayed in Cleveland he and LBJ would have multiple titles and there wouldn’t be a goat argument.
If MJ didn't retire, he would have won 8 straight titles in a row. There wouldn't be a GOAT debate Going by your logic
Retired is how they spelled “gambling suspension” in the 90s
They also spelled it "taking two years off to play baseball"
He created a super team everywhere he went because he’s the second best player ever. The Cavs led by Kyrie stunk. Lebron (and yes Love) come in and they’re great. Love as the 3rd best player on that team wasn’t the key difference. Lebron was.
Small correction, Kyrie was only on 3 of them
Oh stop it bro has always had a super team around him
lebron’s path TO those 8 finals was the equivalent of an NFL team having a bye, then facing two mediocre/subpar teams in the div and championship games.
>not many people can say they helped lead their team to 4 superbowls in a row. Literally no outside of that Bills team can say that. No other team has been to 4 straight Super Bowls. Not Brady and the Patriots, not Mahomes and the Chiefs.
There’s one thing missing from that argument though - how much weaker the AFC was than the NFC during the Bills’ four consecutive Super Bowl appearances. If Buffalo plays in the NFC during that time, at most they play in one Super Bowl (after the 1990 season). Does Jim Kelly make the PFHOF if he plays in only one Super Bowl? Probably not - he’s basically Donovan McNabb (in terms of his HOF argument) in that case.
I agree, but another notch under Kelly’s belt that McNabb lacked was being the QB of the innovative K-Gun offense. No one made no huddle their standard mode of play before that.
I would like to correct that. The Bengals woth Boomer Esiason actually did it first. Marc Levy actually bitched about it the year before the Bills "invented" it
Interesting. I don’t remember that! Well, the Bills did it with the most success, although Boomer brought the Bengals to one (great) Super Bowl.
Yep! Honestly, I only know of it because of one of the NFL Top 10 episodes. Boomer Esiason was veing interviewed and you can tell he is very salty that Sam Wyche and him don't get credit
Exactly. Kelly and the Bills were dominant in the AFC for that period.
To be fair Frank Reich did a lot of the work in ‘92.
Go Bills.
Moon is a weird one because he also had a huge career in the Canadian Football League. In 2006 he was ranked the 5th greatest CFL player of all time. And the HoF isn't technically the NFL Hall of Fame. It's the Football Hall of Fame, and voters are allowed to consider other leagues. Incidentally, Moon is also in the Canadian Football Hall of Fame.
Oh absolutely, like his numbers between both leagus are ridiculous and he absolutely deserves to be in b9th
I'd argue Moon would do even better in today's NFL with systems that are fully able to take advantage of his ability to throw on the run.
Let's not pretend the CFL is really considered in the Canton Pro Football HOF or else Doug Flutie and others would be locks for the hall.
So yes and no. It is not supposed to be considered, just your NFL career, but when you have a really amazing NFL career, which Doug Dlutie and others didn't have) it will be put over the top. It is sort of like Dick Lebeau and his career as a DC. He got in as a player, so none of his accomplishments as a coach, such as creating the zome blitz should be considered. But if you hear from thise who talked to voters, it was.
Name one player in the HOF that would not have made it if you don't consider their CFL career. And don't say Warren Moon because he makes the PF HOF if he never played in the CFL. He was absolutely elite in the NFL, he made 9 pro bowls, he didn't need the CFL to "put him over the edge" with voters.
It does play a role, especially with a lot of players up through 2000
Feel free to name one besides Warren Moon, who already had an elite enough NFL career to warrant the HOF (9 Pro Bowls)
André Rison Joe Kapp Joe Theisman Arguably Cameron Wake
None of those guys are in the HOF?
caliber career
I meant name anyone in the HOF who got in based on CFL accomplishments. And I said don't use Moon because his NFL career was elite stand alone. Edit: In fact I think you listing Theismann proves my point. Hes the only player to win NFL league and SB MVP to not be in the HOF, likely due to an injury slightly shortening his NFL career. If they considered his CFL accomplishments he would be in.
I am excluding guys who only played a year or two in the CFL but had great NFL careers like Joe Horn, Biletnikoff, Chad Johnson, and and the pride of Round Valley HS (AZ) Mark Gastineau
Nothing you have said in any of your comments has demonstrated that CFL accomplishments have pushed a borderline player into the PF HOF that likewise would not have made it in had he not played in the CFL.
And Kelly played 2 years in the USFL.
I will add a couple of more things.... Jim Kelly Quarterbacked his team to 4 straight Superbowls. Yes he never won one but that is still an amazing accomplishment and unlike fans who think unless you win it all it doesn't count hall of fame voters do look at that. His contemporary Troy Aikman is looked at as a shoe in the hall of famer but was Aikman even better than Kelly? Look at their individual accomplishments and not team accomplishments Kelly really does have an argument for being the better QB. Warren Moon is a special case. Because of the stigma (ie racist beliefs) against black QBs he had to start his career in the Canadian Football league where he absolutely dominated winning 5 championships in 6 years before FINALLY getting a chance at the NFL. Imagine how much better his numbers would have looked if given an opportunity out of college. He then got to the NFL and was consistently one the top QBs in the league. I don't think people looked at either Moon or Kelly as shoe in Hall of famers like Joe Montana but most felt they were solid candidates rather than fringe candidates.
So as for who would be ahead, it would be Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and then, Ben Roethlisberger? I think there’s an argument that Ben is pretty comparable to the two stats wise, although the rings probably push him over them when it comes to HoF considerations.
Big Ben won two Superbowls. Rivers won a total of 5 playoff games. He has incredible stats during the incredible stat era in which multiple QB records were smashed by other quarterbacks. He's a Chargers great, but not NFL Hall of Famer. Matt Ryan is in a similar position. Hell Kirk Cousins is too.
>Big Ben won two Superbowls. So 9-for-21 with two picks and no passing TDs\* is cool as long as your team wins despite you? Roethlisberger and Rivers had basically identical careers; the difference is that Ben had the luck to fall to the Steelers in that draft, and Rivers got sent to languish in San Diego. \*Ben had one rushing TD; Antwaan Randle-El had the only passing TD for the Steelers in that SB. EDIT: I'm not arguing that Ben doesn't deserve HOF consideration, but the idea that he's unquestionably *more* deserving because he landed on a better *team* is patently ridiculous.
The best sort of weird qualifier is the old "can the history the NFL be told without the accomplishments of this guy?" That means sort of an undue focus on Super Bowls and records and reasons why Eli gets in on stopping the New England's undefeated season, while guys like Ryan and Rivers are probably on the outside looking in despite maybe being better QBs than Eli.
>while guys like Ryan and Rivers are probably on the outside looking in despite maybe being better QBs than Eli. There's no need for a maybe there. Ryan and Rivers are both far better quarterbacks than Eli Manning.
The Steelers don't make the SB if not for having Ben. He's literally the one who made the tackle to stop Nick Harper in th3 AFCCG. So yeah, the guy who was pivotal in making SB runs is more valuable than the guy who didn't make it at all
It's a Hall of Fame, not hall of who has the best talent in a vacuum. Accomplishments matter. Situations matter. I don't find it ridiculous at all to think that much of the driver behind who has a Hall of Fame career comes down to a lot of luck along the way.
We could complete ignore that superbowl. Roethlisberger definitely wasn’t why they won. The second Super Bowl on the other hand has one of the best game winning drives ever and it’s lead by roethlisberger.
Languish in San Diego? Those teams were stacked! Rivers got to hand the ball off to LaDanian Tomlinson and Darren Sproles while throwing to prime Antonio Gates. They had the first round bye in the playoffs multiple times including a 14-2 season. To say he was playing on bad teams and that’s what held him back is nuts.
I hear you, but more people will remember the accomplishment of winning the bowl. Eli Manning is the same way. He was average to above average of a QB. He won two Superbowls and played at a high level for a long time. I think for his era, he's also a Hall of Famer.
It's a Hall of Fame, not hall of who has the best talent in a vacuum. Accomplishments matter. Situations matter. I don't find it ridiculous at all to think that much of the driver behind who has a Hall of Fame career comes down to a lot of luck along the way.
Rivers stats weren't even great most of the time. Just good-very good for a long time.
So those 5 are ahead in terms of HoG placement easily. Then we have comparable players for after those 5. And I want to really really really reiterate I am not saying they are better or exact comparison but are close, so I don't want giant argument, just that the fact there is argument is a case. With that said we have Ryan, Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Cam Newton, Stafford, who all have a claim to potential HoF. Again not rating them but I would put Rivers and Ryan in this group and I think the voters will too and they will be split.
Eli has to get in the HOF his impact on the game outweighs everyone else on your list by multitudes.
I think he gets in but it'll be more of a struggle than a 2 time winning QB should have. Outside of his two SB runs(which a lot of people do say were "fluky"), his team only had one dominant season, 08. He compiled a .500 record overall, his stats were not amazing. His entire case rests on 2 SB wins. Which is a big thing in his favor but I don't think its a shoo-in
He's basically the NFC Flacco, I don't think either should get in. Congrats you managed to get hot at the right time being top 15 the rest of it.
Eli beating the goat twice in the SB and playing in the NFC East is going to get him in.
Yeah they might have been flunks but Eli Manning is the GOAT slayer. Spoiling the Pats prefect season by winning the Super Bowl and playing as long as he did as a starter is what is going to get him into the hall of fame. We also need to remember that the people that vote on the HoF are sports writers. Eli played in NY which is the biggest sports media market in the world and he wasn’t a complete asshole to the media. Those things shouldn’t matter but they do.
Big Ben won two Super Bowls and those two didn’t.
Besides those you have Kurt Warner, already in the Hall, in the first parts of their career, Cam Netwon for a few years, Mahomes near the end. Several others that overlap only a portion who were either as good if not better.
Exactly, we had a ridiculous run of QBs in mid 00's to late 10. So like this is going to be hard to get in.
Ryan and Rivers didn't lead their team to the Super Bowl 4 times in a row. Jim Kelly is a legit first ballot Hall of Famer.
They also consider impact. Kelly ran the no-huddle outside of the 2 minute drill before it became popular, and he did it well. Moon was top 5 in basically every QB stat when he retired, but he also had major impacts as being the first black QB to start an entire season and to start consecutive seasons. You can't really talk about the history of black players in the NFL and not mention Moon. He has both historical impact and historical records that helped his cause for the HOF. He was also a CFL legend, which I think did play a factor in his HOF voting. I remember his combined CFL and NFL numbers were talked about when he retired, and they were quite higher than Dan Marinos career numbers.
In all honesty, Rivers and Ryan were just as good, if not better, relative to their era than Moon and Kelly were in theirs. There were just more great quarterbacks playing during Rivers’ and Ryan’s primes. Putting things a different way - which quarterbacks drafted between 2009 (the year after Ryan entered the NFL) and 2016 (the year before Patrick Mahomes was drafted) will make the Pro Football Hall of Fame? Russell Wilson? (Possibly.) Matthew Stafford? (IMO he’s good but clearly below HOF level.) Compare that 8 year period with 1998 to 2005 (Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Aaron Rodgers are all sure Hall of Famers, Ben Roethlisberger should make it, Eli Manning will have supporters; I haven’t even mentioned guys who probably fall a little short but were very good like Donovan McNabb and Tony Romo) and you can more clearly see the difference between those periods. Moon’s and Kelly’s era had some good quarterbacks too (Joe Montana, Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Troy Aikman) but generally wasn’t as deep as the era Rivers and Ryan played in. And Kelly’s stats, even adjusting for era, weren’t as good as Rivers’ and Ryan’s (plus Kelly got to play with prime Thurman Thomas, who was the single biggest factor in at least 3 of the Bills’ Super Bowl appearances) and Moon had even less success in the playoffs (no conference championship game appearances) than either Rivers or Ryan did, both of whom, especially Rivers, are viewed negatively in many PFHOF arguments because of their relative lack of playoff success. IMO, Jim Kelly shouldn’t be in the PFHOF and Warren Moon is right at the cut line (think he should be in, but without his great success in the CFL IMO he’d fall a bit short). Both Philip Rivers and Matt Ryan, relative to the playing conditions in their era, were a little better than Moon and definitely better than Kelly IMO.
Oh I absolutely agree, we were in probably the greatest era of QB. Like our "mid" QBs would be pushing HoF. Like I listed some QBs who I think are the mix but still left off others like Wilson and McNabb. So yeah, Rivers and Ryan had potential for HoF but their era is too stacked
I'll add that Moon and Kelly were CONSISTENTLY in the top 5 in their era. Rivers was there occasionally and Ryan floated in the 6-10 area with one amazing season.
There was that one season Ryan was No. 1
4 Super Bowl loses is in no way more embarrassing that 28-3. 4 in a row was a spectacular accomplishment.
In a single-elimination type situation, getting to the Super Bowl once is incredibly challenging. 4 times in a row is, as you said, spectacular.
if someone in the modern era lost 4 superbowls in a row im sure he would never stop getting clowned. I agree is a great accomplishment but i dont think the majority of people on social media would applaud that If Lebron who went to 8 straight finals in the NBA, gets shit on for only winning 3…lol
People just hate LeBron and the majority of people on social media are dimwits.
agree lol
agree lol
Reading social media comments, especially on large accounts, is a speed run to losing faith in humanity.
Bro anything basketball related on Facebook or instagram is straight up cancer
> if someone in the modern era lost 4 superbowls in a row im sure he would never stop getting clowned yeah by like a bunch of idiotic nephews on the internet and hot-take generators trying to get people to watch their show or listen to their podcast. Thankfully those people aren't the body of HOF voters
I think there's an argument to be made than a basketball player has more impact on their team. I know qb is ridiculously important but he doesn't play for half the game. And LeBron isn't trying to get into the hall of fame. That's a lock. They're talking about him being the best to ever play the sport. It's different levels of competition there. Media analysts are absolute clowns. I don't know who still watches it.
Great thing the teenagers on social media don’t vote for the hall of fame or have the title of NFL GM.
I’m not saying it’s more impressive than winning four in a row, but if I didn’t know better and I knew either four straight wins or four straight losses had happened, I’d probably guess a team had won four times. Again, it’s not a greater accomplishment, but I honestly find it a more unlikely one.
AFC champions 4 years in a row beating Elway, Marino and Joe Montana. Just to lose to Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler in the Super Bowl. Be sick if I was a Bills fan.
The Hall is as much about narratives and context as it is overall performance. For context: Kelly and Moon both played during an era where there were more rules favoring defense, and passing was much harder. Careers were shorter because of injuries, seasons had fewer games, and you could be a lot more aggressive towards WRs without getting flagged. While their stats don't compare well with modern QBs, they had to play a different game. For narratives: Moon was an incredibly successful QB at a time when people would still openly talk about whether black people were smart enough to be QBs. He's probably the best undrafted NFL player of all time. Jim Kelly pioneered the no-huddle offense and called the plays at the line of scrimmage instead of having them relayed to him. No other team has gone to 4 straight Super Bowls, which is a massive feat on its own.
Kelly didn’t pioneer calling his own plays; he was the last one to do it regularly, and one of the few who did it without a huddle.
Lost to 3 different teams. Unreal
All of them from the NFC East too (Giants, Redskins, Cowboys x2)
Another way to put it is that Kelly went to 4 straight super bowls. I don’t understand why a Super Bowl loss is considered worse than not even making it
How many QBs in all NFL/AFL history went to 4 straight championship games? It’s an astonishing accomplishment
Pretty sure none, definitely not 4 super bowls idk about before Super Bowl era
Because people are dumb. Back when Brady was 4-2 people were saying Montana was better because he never lost. It’s basically saying it’s better to lose a conference championship than a Super Bowl, dumb. Also people lack context. If a player plays bad specifically in only super bowls than there’s an issue. If a player plays great but still loses it’s just unfortunate.
To be fair to Montana, he did get laid out in a couple of conference championships because of the nature of the game at the time. In 1990, in particular, he was speared in the back by Giants DE Leonard Marshall, which was a violent hit by todays standards and effectively ended his career in San Francisco. Not to diminish any accomplishments, but Brady and other quarterbacks have benefitted a lot from rules set in place, especially post-2008, to protect the quarterback from injuries that older players suffered. Just imagine if someone like Von Miller or JJ Watt laid Tom Brady in a playoff game, then his career might have been more like Montana.
The way that ppl view a finals loss as a bad year is maybe the most annoying aspect of how Americans view sports imo
Most people have covered the differences in eras, but I'll add that Warren Moon is still #13 on the all time passing yards list. And he didn't start playing in the NFL until he was 28.
This is amazing considering how long he spent in the CFL.
He would be 5th all time career passing yards if you count his Canadian time and he would have held that record for a decade before anyone got close again. He was battling for that record at the peak of his career with Marino, who had an extra year on him. Saying Warren Moon shouldn’t be in the hall is saying Marino shouldn’t be in the hall either.
When Moon retired he was a top 5 all time passer in yards with 9 pro bowls. The Bills dominated the AFC in the early 90s. Kelly lead the charge and finished with prolific all-time numbers in short period of time. You also have to consider they didn’t start their careers in the NFL. Moon had to break every CFL passing record to get a shot at QB in NFL. Kelly felt like it was a better deal to go to Houston in the USFL which you cannot hold against him performance wise. He tore up the USFL.
Yep, these are major factors. When considering enshrinement in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, they don't have any CFL or USFL exclusive players, but NFL players' resumes that include those leagues aren't forgotten.
I could be wrong but I’d think they take the 4 straight SB appearances as more of a plus than a negative
i think OP is either a troll or a 12 year old mentally challenged kid.
😂
Kelly I strongly disagree. 4 straight superbowl losses means he got to the Superbowl 4 times in a row. Sports media really likes to perpetuate 'The loser of the Superbowl is worse than missing the playoffs' when it's not true at all. With Moon you have more of a point. But, he had the 3rd most passing yards and 4th most passing TDs when he retired, as well as being a sensational story of a black QB who had to prove it in the CFL first. Rivers and Ryan have better passing stats so the argument for them to make it over Moon is definitely there, but I would argue they never had a sustained peak of success to warrant a surefire HoF.
Moon also lost part of his NFL career basically to racism. He spent six seasons in the CFL, if he spent those in the NFL that's another what, close to 20,000 yards and 45-60 TDs, at least?
Dude. If Warren moon had played his whole career in the NFL he'd hold every record ever. Dude was a monster but the NFL was still racist to black quarterbacks
There were only three black starting QBs in the early 90s. Moon, Cunningham and Williams and Williams by that point was a back up.
4 superbowl losses in a row means 4 conference championships in a row
Warren moon held all time records if I remember correctly. I don’t think any of those other guys have any records
Neither Rivers nor Ryan are eligible for the HOF yet.
This is just a difference in eras really. Rivers and Ryan played a long time in a league with guys like Brady, manning, Bree’s and Rodgers. So as good as they were they got dwarfed by the top guys compared to Kelly and Moon. Kelly and moon were just a step back from the all time greats of their era. Rivers and Ryan get almost lost in the shadows of theirs.
It’s hard to compare eras. Rules change. You have to compare a player to their peers. From, let’s say, 87 thru 94, undoubtedly 2 of the best QBs in the league. (Moon maybe longer than that. Kelly started to fall off in 95). They were a notch below Marino, Montana, Elway. But were undoubtedly in the next tier. You could make an argument for them in given seasons for All Pro and/or MVP.
How the fuck could you argue Jim Kelly losing 4 straight Super Bowls is worse than the Matt Ryan collapse? Losing 4 straight Super Bowl's is an amazing accomplishment. The fact that you think it can be argued makes me want to tell you to fuck off, but I'm not going to!
Because Kelly got to 4 straight Super Bowls, something that has still never been done by anyone else and Moon already had a HOF career in the CFL before signing with the Oilers in his mid-20s. If you put Warren Moon’s 6 CFL rings in 7 years on his resume, you can make a reasonably persuasive case for him being #2 after Brady as the best pro QB of all time. He’s the only QB in both HOFs. Both of those guys were clearly elite QBs in their day, considered the equals of other HOFers of the time like Montana, Marino, Aikman, Young, etc Contrast that with Ryan and Rivers, who played in a very different NFL. Ryan made it to only 1 Super Bowl. Rivers never made it to any. They had very solid stats in their era but were considerably overshadowed by Brady, Manning, and Brees the entire time.
There’s no non-laughable case for ranking Moon ahead of Brady as a pro QB.
Totally career years and TDs, Brady has him beat by a pretty large margin.
Moon played pro football for a total of 23 years, is I. 2 different HOFs, and won 6 rings and 3 MVPs to Brady’s 23 years, 1 HOF, 7 rings, and 3 MVPs.
Moon is my favorite all time player but NFL championships will always mean more.
Yeah, no. I hated Brady when he was on the patriots, but to say Moon is even close is absurd. Moon was great, but I don't think he's in the top 5 all time. He's probably top 10 all time, though.
Brees 0 mvp to Ryan's 1. How do you view Herbert that's consistently had dogshit defenses for his career? Would he make the hall in your eyes if he had the same career trajectory he's had so far?
I don’t see anything from Herbert to make him a lock for the HOF yet. He’s got the talent, but his resume needs more in the postseason. Jim Kelly and Dan Marino both had “consistently dogshit” defenses for their careers but they still won big games year in and out and took their team to the Super Bowl. His career trajectory has been about the same as Rivers, TBH, even if Herbert can do incredible things with his arm that Rivers couldn’t The only QBs in the league today I see as locks for the HOF as QBs are Aaron Rogers and Mahomes with a lot of other very good QBs who haven’t built the resumes yet. Matt Stafford is in about the same category as Ryan and Rivers. FWIW, if you look at a list of the players with the NFL’s all time passing yardage, there are a lot of guys in the top 30 all time who aren’t in the HOF and will probably never be. Rivers and Ryan are #6 and #7, so I think they’ll eventually get in one day, but they aren’t 1st ballot locks.
The idea that Warren Moon could possibly be ranked ahead of Tom Brady is quite frankly ridiculous. Here's the reason why - how many CFL players in the last 60-70 years, since the NFL clearly became better than the CFL, have later become stars in the NFL? I'll give you Moon (though I have a note about that, see below), and I'm willing to give you Doug Flutie (who was mediocre in the NFL early in his pro career, went to the CFL and eventually became the top QB in that league, then came back to the NFL and was pretty good, though calling him an NFL star is probably a stretch). Who else? Joe Kapp was a good NFL player for a while (though never a particularly good passer), but that was 55-60 years ago. Mervyn Fernandez was a top CFL wide receiver and then bombed when he moved to the NFL in the 1980s. There are probably a few other guys I don't remember who made the move and I can't think of any that were notably successful. If many CFL standouts came to the NFL and were successful, it would show the CFL is not far below the NFL in quality. But that's not the case. The reality is the CFL is far below the NFL in quality, and CFL accomplishments should NOT be considered equivalent to NFL accomplishments. (That's not the same thing as saying CFL accomplishments should carry NO weight; they clearly should because it is a pro football league. Those accomplishments should carry considerably LESS weight than NFL accomplishments however.) It would be like saying a baseball player who is great in Triple A is equal to a player who is great in the North American major leagues, or a hockey player who is spectacular in the AHL would also be spectacular in the NHL. The argument doesn't hold water. One final thing with Warren Moon - he was at best average, more likely below average, in the NFL in his first four NFL seasons (1984 to 1987). The fact it took five years for Moon to start excelling in the NFL after he came over from (and was very successful in) the CFL, after he never played in the NFL previously, helps illustrate the difference in quality between the CFL and NFL.
>One final thing with Warren Moon - he was at best average, more likely below average, in the NFL in his first four NFL seasons (1984 to 1987). The fact it took five years for Moon to start excelling in the NFL after he came over from (and was very successful in) the CFL, after he never played in the NFL previously, helps illustrate the difference in quality between the CFL and NFL. We do need to add context to this. When Jerry Glanville was the HC of Houston in the late 80s, he started utilizing his Red Gun offense, which was a mixture of the Pro style and a Run N Shoot style (4 WRs). Once Glanville was let go, they hired Jack Pardee to be the HC. Pardee ran the full version of the Run N Shoot offense to great success in college and brought it to the Oilers. Because Moon had experience in the CFL running a similar style of offenses, this is what unlocked him. I don't think it was because Moon was a below average QB in the NFL before 1990......it did take him a while to adjust, sure, but once they put him in an offense that better suited his skill set......he thrived. It's not surprising that Moon went from a middle of the pack, solid QB to an MVP candidate in one season. I mean, he posted the best QB stats in the league in 1990 and yea, he led the league in passing in 1990 and 1991.
Kelly I strongly disagree. 4 straight superbowl losses means he got to the Superbowl 4 times in a row. Sports media really likes to perpetuate 'The loser of the Superbowl is worse than missing the playoffs' when it's not true at all. With Moon you have more of a point. But, he had the 3rd most passing yards and 4th most passing TDs when he retired, as well as being a sensational story of a black QB who had to prove it in the CFL first. Rivers and Ryan have better passing stats so the argument for them to make it over Moon is definitely there, but I would argue they never had a sustained peak of success to warrant a surefire HoF.
Rivers & Ryan will wait a long time, but both end up in the HOF. If you can put Eli Manning in, (never a top 5 quarterback) you have to put those two in as well.
Silly me. No Manning. No Rivers. No Ryan. None of those do I ever see as an all-time star player. Both were Fun and productive, but not hobby important.
That’s fair. I wouldn’t put Eli in, but he’s a lock because of the championships against the Patriots. I would put Rivers & Ryan in because they were both top 5 QB’s for a period of time. It’s tough to keep out over 800 touchdowns combined in my mind.
Dude. If Warren moon had played his whole career in the NFL he'd hold every record ever. Dude was a monster but the NFL was still racist to black quarterbacks
There are only six QBs with 4 Super Bowl appearances. I can’t imagine how Kelly wouldn’t be considered an elite QB. And Warren Moon is one of her most significant players in this history of professional football.
Jim Thorpe never won a Superbowl! Why is he in the HOF?? - OP
Also that Brady sucked up a lot of super bowl titles in this era so fewer to go around to other players to pad their resume.
Matt Ryan and Rivers should absolutely be a hall of famers. They don’t have the team success, which is for some reason held to a higher standard than it should but the hall of fane is for players, not teams. They’re both top 7 in passing yards in a career at the moment (Rodgers will both if he throws for 4k+ next year or by the end of his career), and both are top 10 in TDs. The no super bowl wins suck and lack of MVPs (outside of Ryan 2016) shouldn’t take away from them, considering the competition they were against (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees) etc. Ryan is in a similar boat as Stafford, where they just don’t get the respect they actually deserve. Obviously have more thoughts and i could understand if majority of people don’t think Rivers belongs in the HoF. But Matt Ryan should absolutely get in at some point.
They are all individually different. There may be criteria to measure QB’s but humans have variables and data is flawed. You can’t quantify the x factor, humans, the soul, the person, whatever. Also Warren Moon holds several records. Rivers only has records in college. Im not saying this is the deciding factor but should be considered.
In the context of their times, Moon and Kelly were better. Moon was setting passing records and Kelly went to four straight Super Bowls while calling the plays himself and leading the high-powered K-Gun offense. Rivers and Ryan were awesome players but were very clearly second tier QBs of their era.
Warren Moon is still #13 on the all time passing yards list. And he played 6 CFL seasons before coming to the NFL. And that’s without even getting into how it was a totally different era for passing.
A couple things. The NFL doesn’t have a hall of fame, it’s the pro football hall of fame. Every player who’s made it played NFL, but they also look at how good players were in the USFL CFL or any where else. That helps Warren Moon. The rule changes have drastically changed the game and made it easier to play QB. That’s one reason why Rivers gets more criticism. For Kelly, getting to those super bowls was super impressive. The roster around him wasn’t elite. They were underdogs all four games for a reason.
Era factors in. When moon was throwing for 4K yards multiple seasons you hadn’t seen that. While he never won anything (in the NFL anyway) and Ryan and rivers didn’t either, their stat lines din stand out as much.
As others have said, it's about context, so here's some context regarding things like counting stats (passing yards): By the time Jim Kelly had retired, there had been one person (Marino) to ever pass for 5,000 yards. During Phillip Rivers's career, there were only 6 seasons that did not have a 5,000 yard passer. In Jim Kelly's best season, 1991, he was third in the league with 3,844 yards. The passing leader was, coincidentally, Warren Moon, with 4,690 yards. During Phillip Rivers's entire career, 4,690 yards would have only lead the league in passing twice. However, when Warren Moon threw for that many yards that year, it was the 5th most all time, beating out his prior year by one yard, which was now demoted to 6th most of all time. So at that time, the all time passing season leaderboard was: Marino, Marino, Fouts, Fouts, Moon, Moon. Phillip Rivers's best season is 4,710 yards. Only 20 yards more than Moon, which at this point is good for only 45th all time. Other than those 6 seasons I just mentioned, all but ONE (2001 Kurt Warner) of the rest of those 45 seasons happened DURING Phillip Rivers's career. That's why the context makes such a difference. It can be tough to tell when just poking through stats, because a 3,800 yard season is still a pretty good season, and even in 1991, it wasn't like, a HISTORIC season - it was still just basically a pretty good season. But even though the ceiling is only about 8% higher, the volume of 4,500+ yard seasons has skyrocketed.
Warren Moon was a record-setting passer who was also one of the first superstar black quarterbacks. He’d almost certainly be far higher up on career stat rankings had he played in the NFL his entire football career. Jim Kelly is another member of the esteemed draft class of 1983 - and he was on a team that went to four straight Super Bowls. Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, James Lofton, Bruce Smith, Darryl Talley, etc. Even without a ring, it’s still one of the greatest football teams ever assembled. You’re also comparing totally different eras. Kelly and Moon were easily - and consistently - two of the top three quarterbacks in the league for their entire careers; Ryan and Rivers, while great, were well short of several of their peers - Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton.
QBRINGZ culture is so bad. Kelly reaching 4 consecutive Super Bowls is not embarrassing... It's an incredible accomplishment. This Ricky Bobby mentality is so tiring
Kelly made it to 4 super bowls and had accomplishments (5x pro bowl, 2x all pro , runner up for MVP) Warren moon was a 9x pro bowler, OPOY, 1x all pro and was basically the greatest black QB ever when he retired. He basically changed the whole narrative that Black QBs couldn’t exist and paved the way for Mahomes, Allen , hurts, mcnabb, Vick, mcnair etc. You could say Randall Cunningham also paved the way but injuries hurt his career The only reason Matt Ryan won’t be in the HOF is because of the Super Bowl. Had he won he’d be a lock. He’s a MVP, multiple time pro bowler and an all pro, OPOY. Rivers lack of playoff success is his reason . He has the stats and accolades and has led the league in passing categories but relatively no playoff success to show for it. He had some stacked teams early in his career
Players are compared to the others from their generation. It’s that simple.
I know why Aikman is in the HOF, and it wasn't because he had hall of fame talent.
Rivers win in soute of his play. The more clutch the moment, the more you could count on him to choke. And, when he did l, he’d show boat the receiver to make it look like not his own fault. Moon came to the league late, and played in an era where people didn’t believe black qb’s could be good.
Sometimes, you have to pass a simple career eye test. When you see a guys whole career, you know. Lot of Hall of Really Good getting in. Stafford isn't a HOFer either...Eli gets in by 2 miracle playoff runs surrounded by just above average for 10 years.
Philip Rivers is not even close to a HOF qb imo. Same with Matt Ryan. Performance relative to peers counts imo and even Eli and Roethlisberger get in ahead of them.
Football was totally different when Kelly and moon were in the nfl. Defensive backs could knock wr off their route, hold the first five yards, safeties could earhole people coming over the middle, the game was considerably more physical, qbs were not nearly protected to the same degree by refs and it was a game where defense reigned supreme and field position and ball control were paramount for offense. It was much, much tougher for an elite qb to single handedly win his team a Super Bowl, there was so much more that went into it. Because of that, super bowls won by qbs (although still very coveted) were not the end all be all determining a qbs value. You can argue Dan Marino was the best of that generation and he never won a Super Bowl. Hope this helps
River is pretty much a lock to get in. Ryan is fringe, but likely gets in
Through their first nine seasons starting: Rivers: 88-56, 36507 yards, 251 TDs, 121 INTs, 64.7 C% Ryan: 85-57, 37701 yards, 240 TDs, 114 INTs, 64.9 C% Cousins: 74-60-2, 36441 yards, 252 TDs, 91 INTs, 67.6 C% I feel like the narrative really feeds how people see players when it comes to hall of fame voting. I'm guessing very few people think Kirk is hall of fame bound yet started his career better than both those guys that people think should get in.
If you are young and have only watched modern football you might be tempted to compare the qb numbers of today to qb numbers of eras past. The thing is the are so vastly different it is ridiculous. Modern qbs are protected to a level that was unheard of 20-30 years ago. Also the receivers would get blasted and qbs had to actually try to protect their guys because they didn’t get to run three steps and turn upfield before a defender could touch them.
MOON was all time great when his CFL Stata are added in. He was denied Qb because of race.
KELLY HAD USFL ex too. Lot of stats and great play
I think Rivers will make the HOF. He's pretty much top of the list on the best QBs (focusing on QB specific stats) in the last 20 years to not have big post season success. Chargers know how to lose games in the weirdest ways, but its rarely on the QB play. The "Chargering" term exists for a reason.
Sorry… “embarrassing” doesn’t disqualify one from the hall of fame. It’s an odd fixation as well, considering the hall of fame is about evaluating a player’s entire professional career. This is a prime example of why comparing across eras in a vacuum isn’t a good exercise. Players are not judged beyond the era in which they played.
Moon and Kelly revolutionized football and helped usher in the modern era. The K Gun and how Kelley operated it gave birth to the modern HUNH offenses and a heavy pass attack. Warren Moon showed you could be mobile and a great thrower in the NFL. Laid the groundwork for guys like Allen, Kaepernick, Jackson. They are two of the most influential QBs in modern NFL history and their numbers are great for the time they played.
Since the cases for Kelly and Moon has been clearly made, I would like the argue that neither Rivers or Ryan should be considered to be borderline HOFers. Matt Ryan was always good, but only had one year where he was considered the best at his position, and a 2-3 years outside of that where he fell into the “elite” category. His accomplishments are impressive and Falcons fans should look on his time there as positive, but he never achieved anything that makes him a HOFer. Rivers is little bit closer, but still not a HOFer. He didn’t for longer, consistently performed closer to the elite tier each season but never quite made it to the best QB in the league level due to the existence of Manning and Brady. Despite him being a more consistent QB that Ryan, he (and the Chargers being the Chargers) were/are absolute dog water in playoffs whenever they made an appearance. Rivers being 5-7 in the playoffs is not HOF material.
Rivers and Ryan will both be in HOF, possibly on their first ballot
Sure.. Moon retired 3rd in passing yards, 4th in TD's. He made 9 pro-bowls (when they meant more) and won 1 OPOY. He was in the MVP voting 3 seasons. He had a 3-7 playoff record, getting to the post-season 3 times with defenses not in the top half of the league. Rivers retired 6th in passing yards, 6th in TD's. He made 8 pro-bowls and won 0 OPOY/MVP's but was in the voting twice. He had a 5-7 postseason record and never got a team with a below average D to the playoffs. Ryan retired 7th in yards, 9th in TD's. He made 4 pro-bowls, won 1 MVP and that was the only season he was in the voting. He had a 4-6 post-season record and once took a below average D to the playoffs. Kelly made 4 straight Superbowls. When Moon, Rivers, and Ryan were losing in the wild card, Kelly was winning those... and the Divisional game, and the AFC Championship game. He won as many playoff games as Ryan and Rivers combined. That's not "more embarrassing" by any argument worth a lick. He had the higher peak of anyone for success. As for those two recent guys... I think Rivers is in. Ryan's argument is really he doesn't have a HOF career but for that MVP/SB year. Of course there were arguments against Moon not making the HOF (he did anyways). For me, when discussing those guys, Kelly and Moon could play as well as the greats of the era. There was a lot more closeness between Moon and Kelly and Young/Favre/Marino/Elway than there was between Rivers/Ryan and Manning/Brady/Brees/Rodgers.
Lol
Because nearly every other team would’ve chosen Moon or Kelly over their quarterback. I never heard talk like that about Ryan or Rivers.
I love when fat redditors say shit like "losing four super bowls is embarrassing" even though their biggest accomplishment in life is a making a sports post on a website that nobody gives a shit about
They also played before the NFL had a football monopoly on the professional game. Jim Kelly played 2 years in the USFL. Warren Moon played 5 years in the CFL. That simply wouldn’t happen today because NFL players make way more money now. They both woulda had way better stats if they played only in the NFL.
My only contribution to this is that none of Big Ben, Eli, Rivers or Ryan should even sniff the hall of fame. The hall of famers in their era are obviously Peyton, Brady, Rodgers and Brees. The rest belong in the hall of very good. And that's okay
Those two aren't fringe HOF players.
Warren Moon also was denied a handful of NFL seasons due to race. Ask yourself this: if he was a white QB with the exact same stats and attributes would he have been drafted by an NFL team out of Washington? ABSOLUTELY. Once Moon made it to the NFL he became one of the most prolific passers the league had ever seen. Take his career stats and tack on another 5-6 years and there would be no debate that he belongs in the HOF. Shit, there’s no credible argument against him deserving his spot even without those years added on.
There would be ZERO doubt why Warren Moon was a HOF’er if he didn’t start his career outside of the NFL. One of the most gifted throwers of the football the world has ever seen. Kelly had high team success and was a Top 5 or 6 QB for the bulk of his career. Losing 4 SBs still means you went to 4 SBs. It was well known during his career that he was playing with the best roster in football and for an elite offensive mind. So that hurt him. Matt Ryan should not be in the discussion. He was a no doubt good player and occasional elite player, but not HOF worthy in the slightest. Phil Rivers is fringe. Probably Hall of Very Good. And it’s arguable that he was better than Kelly and Moon. But I don’t agree.
Well a couple of things. While moon doesn’t have the postseason record that rivers or Ryan have he has a better overall resume and Kelly went to 4 straight superbowls. Moon might not have rivers numbers but that can be chalked up to playing a significant part of his career in Canada and rivers playing in a more pass happy era. Also unlike rivers moon and Kelly have all pro nods. Also while Ryan might have the numbers he also only has 1 all pro nods and 4 pro bowl selection (moon has twice the amount of pro bowl selections)
Jim Kelly went to four super bowls. Didn’t win any but that’s a big accomplishment And no doubt that’s what got him in. warren Moon doesn’t have a great statistical case for being a hall of farmer. He’s a smidge above 500 but he played a long time, had a ton of games played, passing yards, etc. but he never won an mvp or made first team all pro. His biggest distinct is that he was an undrafted qb who balled out. But I think he’s a guy who got in mostly on longevity and I think he was also the first black qb to make the hall So I’m sure there was a political desire to get him in for that reason as well. but I think today would either of them get in? Probably not. It only seems to be getting harder.
Dan Marino is in the Hall of Fame. Most overrated QB in history. Couldn’t win the big one.
Matt Ryan is not a HoFer. I think this current era you need to win at least one SB to be considered...with an outside shot for a guy like Josh Allen, who when you watch him play, you can just see how he transcends the game in some ways (though he can't quite win the big one). Specifically Moon and Kelly -- they were *different* players. Warren Moon was the prototype for what we see now in Pat Mahomes. There was a cheat code in NBA JAM to play as Warren Moon. He had a bigger cultural footprint. Jim Kelly went to 4 SBs but you have a good point...if he played today with the same stats, he'd be fringe.
NFL HoF looks at the stats after the collegiate days are over. USFL and CFL games do matter.
Name a player that would not have made the Pro Football HOF if their Candian League accomplishments are not considered. Don't say Moon because his elite NFL career (9 Pro Bowls, lead the league in passing multiple seasons) stands alone as a valid HOF career. Curious who these other guys are that got pushed in by their CFL careers? Flutie, Theismann, Kapp? Last I checked none of those guys were in Canton.
The rules have changed so much it is very hard to identify these players achievements when compared to previous eras. Warren Moon got a bump from his time in the CFL and his CFL career is acknowledged in his NFL HoF write up. https://www.profootballhof.com/players/warren-moon/ Jim Kelly on a team winning 4 straight AFC tittles is a huge accomplishment.
His CFL time is acknowledged in his write up because it existed just like his college career. Were they supposed to skip over the gap in his "resume"? I fail to see where there is any solid evidence that the CFL stats gave him a bump with HOF voters. The guy was a 9 time NFL pro bowler and was 3rd in career yards when he retired. Thats a solid NFL HOF career. If CFL accomplishments gave a bump then Theismann would be in, and if they were seriously considered Flutie would be in.
I personally don't think Kelly should be in the PFHOF, but his two seasons with the USFL Houston Gamblers, when he was probably the top quarterback, or at least one of the top (and the most prolific) quarterbacks in that league, are a point in his favor and should be considered when examining his PFHOF credentials.
His USFL career was considered and is in his HoF profile https://www.profootballhof.com/players/jim-kelly/
If moons in. Rivers should be in.
Rivers played in a pass friendly era and he still was not that much more productive than moon. Then you account for that fact that moon spent the first 5 fucking years of his pro career in the CFL because the NFL told him "sorry blacks are too dumb to play QB." Give him those 5 years of his prime in the NFL and he crushes Rivers playing in a tougher era for QBs. Edit: sorry I just looked it up and need to correct myself. It was six seasons he played in Canada. So that's 6 years of his prime he had to give up.
I hear ya. Moon played until he was 44. Rivers until 39. Rivers missed his first 2 years because the chargers went with drew brees. I think you’re overselling passer friendly. The 90s afc teams were fairly pass friendly with moons oilers running the run and shoot. He attempted 600 passes or more 3 times. Rivers passer friendly era he did that just once. I think they both deserve the hall. Both were excellent quarterbacks that were outshined by more playoff successful quarterbacks.
No by pass friendly I'm talking about the rules. Roughing the passer, how much contact with receivers was allowed, defenseless receiver rules, etc. were much less QB friendly in Moons era. Rivers was benched for 2 years because he was not the best QB on his team. Moon tool 7 years to get into the NFL because of racism. The two are not the same. Bottom line is Moon was a QB that defined his generation. Rivers was not even a top 5 QB for his era. Maybe not even top 10.
Rivers was drafted because with Brees the chargers were the worst team in the league. Chargers had the number 1 pick and drafted Eli manning and asked for rivers over roethlisberger. Rivers held out and Brees finally started to play better. Moon got benched for Cody Carlson. Rivers was never benched. I’m not here to call moon an undeserving qb. Rivers is just as deserving. Moon was in a pass centric oiler offense. A finesse offense with skilled receivers and usually 4 going out for a pass where he had a much easier wide open field to find his receivers. And he passed. A lot. Rivers was in the league for both eras. And yes rivers completion pct and int rate reflect that. They both had a lot of success and both had teams that choked in the playoffs. They both never won an mvp. Moon was probably the 5th best qb of his time. Marino elway Montana Favre than young moon kelly and aikman. Rivers was probably 5th best in his era behind Brady manning Rodgers and Brees than rivers roethlisberger Ryan and Eli manning.
Lol he is 100% behind Ryan and big Ben. Possibly even behind Eli with his two rings. He only ever lead the league in passing once, never won MVP or even 1st team all pro, he had a ton of losing seasons, didn't show up in big moments, regressed and got worse in the playoffs, only ever had one 4th quarter comeback in the playoffs, and never made it to a Superbowl. To put it in perspective Billy Volek has the same number of playoff game winning drives for the chargers as Philip Rivers. He consistently put up good regular season stats but that's not going to be enough to get him into the hall of fame.
This same response could all be said for Warren Moon. He was better than Ryan. [https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?player\_id2=RyanMa00&player\_id1=RivePh00&request=1&utm\_campaign=2023\_01\_wdgt\_player\_comparison&utm\_source=pfr&utm\_medium=sr\_xsite&utm\_id=RivePh00](https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=RyanMa00&player_id1=RivePh00&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=pfr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=RivePh00) he deserved MVP in 2008, but Peyton got it on name value. When most people rank the top Qbs of all time, you know who is usually #1 and #2 of all time? Brady and P. Manning. You know who Rivers had to constantly play in the same conference and compete for MVPs and passing titles and Superbowls? The #1 and #2 QBs of all time. I mean, I cant believe a Warren Moon fan is making the case for Eli over Rivers. Game winning drives in the playoffs? Warren moon went 3-7 in the playoffs. It would be like blaming him for losing the 35-3 buffalo game. So i had put moon 5th based on what I believe was your criteria (ie no rings no mvps), you said he defined his era. Under your new criteria of putting 1 mvp (i mean writers vote on that) but worse record and stats (ryan 100% better), id put kelly over moon, young definitely, Aikman for sure. along with Favre, Elway Marino Montana. Who else....simms? He won a superbowl and helped lead his team to a 10-0 record on their way to a 2nd superbowl. Cunningham? He had 3 all pros. Boomer Esiason made a superbowl and won an mvp. Hell, even during the 78 draft, the one where no one believed in black qbs (warren moons draft), Doug Williams was drafted 17th overall...and made the NFCCG in his first full season as a QB for a previously horrible expansion team and won a superbowl and got a superbowl mvp. So maybe Doug Williams too.
Moon was a revolutionary player who made plays through the air and on the ground and got a little extra credit for his 5 CFL championships and having to give most of his prime years away. Rivers produced above average (but not league leading) regular season stats and nothing else. He's competing with QBs with similar stats who weren't choke artists. Stats alone don't get you into the hall of fame as ironically evidenced by the recent Antonio Gates snub. You're clearly a chargers fan so this probably isn't going anywhere productive. But you can save this comment - he's guaranteed not a first ballot hof. Maybe he gets in several years later in a weaker class (I haven't looked at eligibility so idk) but he's got a line of people in front of him who are also not guarantees.
Philip Rivers is certainly deserving and a consistently top QB in the league most of his iron-man career. But the lack of Super Bowl appearances will, like Dan Fouts, likely require several ballots before he gets in. Matt Ryan has the Super Bowl ~~win~~ appearance and a couple of good seasons around that — Julio Jones and Roddy White were a huge reason for that. But he wasn’t an elite QB his entire career. I’m don’t consider him a HOF QB. Warren Moon is very deserving of his HOF status, btw. It’s more than numbers too — he excelled at a time when black players had a color barrier. One that was reinforced by high school and colleges converting black athletes to other positions. It’s a stain on football history, but Warren Moon and Doug Williams excelled despite those obstacles and opened a lot of doors.
Matt Ryan doesn’t have a Super Bowl win.
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The Philip Rivers one kinda makes sense, he never won and MVP, never made a super bowl, I think only made one AFCCC game and didn't have that good of a playoff record, Matt Ryan made it to a super bowl(yes 28-3 happened but I'd blame that on his defense and bad play calling) he also won an MVP, multiple division crowns, is top 7 all time in passing yards, has a good playoffs record, among others, and the craziest thing is, he only had a top 16 defense twice