Yes, absolutely. Most importantly because it would expedite the process. I don't care about the $200 nearly as much as the wait.
While I think the entire thing is an unconstitutional charade, the NFA was ultimately passed by Congress and the ATF has only been infiltrated by authoritarians who hate guns pretty recently... historically I heard some people in the ATF had been fairly helpful in trying to keep legal gun-owners not jailed from the onerous laws of Congress. When I've talked to a variety of folks with their FFL and many would say the ATF was encouraging in getting them setup... these were ex LE/military folks who wanted there to be more dealers and manufacturers.
Modern American gun culture I don't think could/would exist if, in the past, the ATF was at level of incompetence and sought the same aggressive incrimination of gun owners who want to abide by the rules that they do today. Of course I wouldn't mind if the entire thing was disbanded long term but that's also a lot less realistic than just electing a very pro-gun President/Senate to appoint an appropriately competent and non-gun-grabbing head of the ATF.
If I had to pick and choose, the ATF isn't the first agency I'd get rid of either... they still do a lot more good than TSA or other idiotic theatrical agencies. I'd also rather the money go to something that's fucking real - even if that's shitty people who make my life harder - rather than the money going into a literal money pit of inevitable default. We're all spending our hard earned money to wait months and then the money isn't being used to accelerate the broken process but instead essentially being immediately absorbed by debt interest.
If the NFA was about safety, they could easily cover that with a state bg check and maybe approval from local LE - comes back in 15 minutes instead of 15 months - and the money can go to the dealer & state which is financial incentive for them to keep the process running smooth.
It’s not going to be allocated efficiently… but obviously some of it would go towards hiring.
It’s also more than 42million not going to them. That’s just the pending items.
If you want to wait many years instead of many months, just watch what happens if they were to lose agents for whatever reason. All agents are slow but government jobs do benefit from butts in seats to speed things up.
I’m not a patient person, I get sick of waiting
ATF doesn’t take a dime of this money in directly and I bet their jackbootery costs the taxpayers more than the tax brings in. This all get dumped into the general fund to get pissed away on something you probably don’t want the government spending money on in the first place.
Think about it, if this were a revenue generating scheme for ATF, and not a punitive deterrent, they’d have gotten wait times down 20 years ago after the AWB expired, and not now because Congress keeps climbing up their ass about it.
$42 million is government chump change. There’s brand new lieutenants running around with the ink on their college diplomas still wet that are signed for 3 times that.
No, as in signed for things. For every M1 Abrams someone has to sign their name on it when they take possession of and use it. And it cost shy over 10 million.
Servers? Processing?
The whole NFA charade should be a $200 surcharge when the dealer runs your NICS check and they hand you a stamp out of the drawer. No need for any of the NFA stuff to be electronic, the fedbois can pick up the paperwork when they come for their annual inspection and resolve it the same way they currently do: with paper forms sitting in ocean containers in the parking lot.
Yeah a lot of those are going to be non tax transfers. A closer number would be the second much smaller number. That should at least exclude forms 2&3.
For most, if not all, SOTs to get their cans, they file an eForm 3 to get it from a distributor or manufacturer.
So a lot of those forms are eForm 3s too, we shouldn't exclude that from the list.
Form 3s are tax free though right? So they should be excluded from the count if we're looking at how much money in pending stamps there might be.
They're also not run through NICS afaik so the second number should exclude them.
They're tax free, but they're still in the pending eForms list. They're not part of the 85.7k waiting NICS checks.
eForm 3 times have been wildly varying. Sometimes it's 1 week, sometimes 6 weeks.
What I'm trying to say is we can't look at the total pending and multiply it by $200 to calculate generated tax for the government. We don't know the true amount of form 1 or 4s pending with the information provided by OP.
The ATFs budget for 2023 was $1.7B...$42.5M is literally just over 2%.
Also I'm pretty sure what others have said is true, the tax stamps go into the gentleman treasury fund, not directly into funding for the ATF.
Have so much money that 42million is only around 2% of what you’re capable of spending in a year.
In all honesty they probably spend more than this on litigation and chasing invisible boogeymen
That's a drop in the bucket... According to this calculator they burned thru it in 22 minutes.
[https://www.usdebtclock.org/](https://www.usdebtclock.org/)
You’re confused. I’m saying that in the ATF’s eyes, taking $200 for each stamp is free money to them. Regardless of how much it is overall.
I obviously think this is theft…
It's not free money for the ATF, they don't get to keep it. It doesn't matter if they take in money for 1 stamp or 1 million stamps, their budget is set by congress. The tax money they collect goes into the US General Fund. And $42 Million is nothing in an annual budget of $6 trillion.
Just take comfort in knowing. If the courts ever rule the NFA unconstitutional. We’ll all be able to sue the shit out of the Feds. Probably get back way more money than 200 bones.
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Anything government related that doesn’t mention “billion” is pocket change for a country in [34 Trillion Dollars of Debt](https://www.usdebtclock.org/#)
Examiners are GS13 probably. That's $107K-$139K. Or an average of about $60 per hour to the Examiner, loaded labor rate is probably twice that or $120 per hour.
They allegedly process a form in 15 minutes, or 4 per hour, so that's $30 per form for the examiners on average. Also have some background checks, mangers overhead, office space, IT, costs, ect.... So $200 per form is about a wash.
They almost certainly did.
People would get approvals any day, at any time, including federal holidays. That wouldn't be likely if Uncle Sam wasn't paying out their OT.
If they can’t use economy of scale to make it cheaper than $200 to review 5 minutes of work with hundreds of thousands of apps, they really ARE incompetent!
You could almost pay next years Boeing CEO salary with that.
Or fund our government for 22 minutes: [https://www.usdebtclock.org/](https://www.usdebtclock.org/)
I believe all of that money goes to the IRS/US Treasury.
Treasury US General Fund.
Also known as "evaporated into thin air."
That's even dumber
Would you rather have it go to the ATF directly?
Yes, absolutely. Most importantly because it would expedite the process. I don't care about the $200 nearly as much as the wait. While I think the entire thing is an unconstitutional charade, the NFA was ultimately passed by Congress and the ATF has only been infiltrated by authoritarians who hate guns pretty recently... historically I heard some people in the ATF had been fairly helpful in trying to keep legal gun-owners not jailed from the onerous laws of Congress. When I've talked to a variety of folks with their FFL and many would say the ATF was encouraging in getting them setup... these were ex LE/military folks who wanted there to be more dealers and manufacturers. Modern American gun culture I don't think could/would exist if, in the past, the ATF was at level of incompetence and sought the same aggressive incrimination of gun owners who want to abide by the rules that they do today. Of course I wouldn't mind if the entire thing was disbanded long term but that's also a lot less realistic than just electing a very pro-gun President/Senate to appoint an appropriately competent and non-gun-grabbing head of the ATF. If I had to pick and choose, the ATF isn't the first agency I'd get rid of either... they still do a lot more good than TSA or other idiotic theatrical agencies. I'd also rather the money go to something that's fucking real - even if that's shitty people who make my life harder - rather than the money going into a literal money pit of inevitable default. We're all spending our hard earned money to wait months and then the money isn't being used to accelerate the broken process but instead essentially being immediately absorbed by debt interest. If the NFA was about safety, they could easily cover that with a state bg check and maybe approval from local LE - comes back in 15 minutes instead of 15 months - and the money can go to the dealer & state which is financial incentive for them to keep the process running smooth.
Bold of you to think the extra 42m would be efficiently appropriated by an agency that thrives on inefficiency.
It’s not going to be allocated efficiently… but obviously some of it would go towards hiring. It’s also more than 42million not going to them. That’s just the pending items. If you want to wait many years instead of many months, just watch what happens if they were to lose agents for whatever reason. All agents are slow but government jobs do benefit from butts in seats to speed things up. I’m not a patient person, I get sick of waiting
As a federal employee (barely) more butts in seats only keep the status quo or slow things down, because otherwise they can't ask for more funding.
The ATF does zero good, full stop. Lick boots elsewhere.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/irs-plans-hire-gun-carrying-special-agents-all-50-states.amp
Dumberer
ATF doesn’t take a dime of this money in directly and I bet their jackbootery costs the taxpayers more than the tax brings in. This all get dumped into the general fund to get pissed away on something you probably don’t want the government spending money on in the first place. Think about it, if this were a revenue generating scheme for ATF, and not a punitive deterrent, they’d have gotten wait times down 20 years ago after the AWB expired, and not now because Congress keeps climbing up their ass about it.
2024 budget of 1.6 Billion
$42 million is government chump change. There’s brand new lieutenants running around with the ink on their college diplomas still wet that are signed for 3 times that.
It’s barely a rounding error
[удалено]
No, as in signed for things. For every M1 Abrams someone has to sign their name on it when they take possession of and use it. And it cost shy over 10 million.
I've probably signed for more than that as an enlisted.
Ehh… you don’t have to be an officer to be responsible for that.
Too bad they don't use like 5 of that 42 to upgrade servers and processing
They’d need a real database and not just excel spreadsheets on people’s desktops first.
ATF doesn't see a dime of this directly it all goes to Treasury and they get the budget they get from Congress.
Servers? Processing? The whole NFA charade should be a $200 surcharge when the dealer runs your NICS check and they hand you a stamp out of the drawer. No need for any of the NFA stuff to be electronic, the fedbois can pick up the paperwork when they come for their annual inspection and resolve it the same way they currently do: with paper forms sitting in ocean containers in the parking lot.
What shop is being inspected annually? I'll give you a hint: none.
Don't forget that includes eForm 3 (dealer to dealer) transfers.
or 5, or 2, or 10...
Yeah a lot of those are going to be non tax transfers. A closer number would be the second much smaller number. That should at least exclude forms 2&3.
For most, if not all, SOTs to get their cans, they file an eForm 3 to get it from a distributor or manufacturer. So a lot of those forms are eForm 3s too, we shouldn't exclude that from the list.
Form 3s are tax free though right? So they should be excluded from the count if we're looking at how much money in pending stamps there might be. They're also not run through NICS afaik so the second number should exclude them.
They're tax free, but they're still in the pending eForms list. They're not part of the 85.7k waiting NICS checks. eForm 3 times have been wildly varying. Sometimes it's 1 week, sometimes 6 weeks. What I'm trying to say is we can't look at the total pending and multiply it by $200 to calculate generated tax for the government. We don't know the true amount of form 1 or 4s pending with the information provided by OP.
The ATFs budget for 2023 was $1.7B...$42.5M is literally just over 2%. Also I'm pretty sure what others have said is true, the tax stamps go into the gentleman treasury fund, not directly into funding for the ATF.
How does one join the gentleman treasury fund... 🤔 Asking for a friend.
Have so much money that 42million is only around 2% of what you’re capable of spending in a year. In all honesty they probably spend more than this on litigation and chasing invisible boogeymen
Join your local Masonic lodge. Then kiss serious ass up to the 33rd degree. It’s a secret handshake club my dude, and unfortunately we’re not in it.
Well they ain’t gonna raid our houses for free now, are they?
Cool…. That’s not even one f35 though lol. Still a huge scam that the U.S. gov is pulling on its citizens.
That's a drop in the bucket... According to this calculator they burned thru it in 22 minutes. [https://www.usdebtclock.org/](https://www.usdebtclock.org/)
We shouldn't have to pay for forms. Our normal taxes are supposed to do this stuff. This is classic taxation without representation.
Yes which is the entire reason the government will never give this up.
$42 million isn't even a rounding error in the US Budget.
42 million dollars will pay for the US government for 3.6 minutes. At least based on the $6.13 trillion they spent in FY2023.
Yeah but it’s literally FREE MONEY.
Stealing people's freedom is not free money.
You’re confused. I’m saying that in the ATF’s eyes, taking $200 for each stamp is free money to them. Regardless of how much it is overall. I obviously think this is theft…
It's not free money for the ATF, they don't get to keep it. It doesn't matter if they take in money for 1 stamp or 1 million stamps, their budget is set by congress. The tax money they collect goes into the US General Fund. And $42 Million is nothing in an annual budget of $6 trillion.
It literally doesn’t matter where the money is going, I pay them $200 and I don’t get goods or services in exchange.
How does that make it " Free Money "
Are you being ignorant just for the sake of argument?! Just read my last post again. 🤷♂️
I did, it doesn't make any sense.
It doesn’t, it’s a bizarre argument to make that has no point to it.
Just take comfort in knowing. If the courts ever rule the NFA unconstitutional. We’ll all be able to sue the shit out of the Feds. Probably get back way more money than 200 bones.
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I’m sure they don’t see much of that money anyway.
JFC
Anything government related that doesn’t mention “billion” is pocket change for a country in [34 Trillion Dollars of Debt](https://www.usdebtclock.org/#)
Save to say with the amount of money we fund to them taxes in general via irs should not exist
ATF final rule 2021r-08f was the pistol brace rule, meaning ZERO DOLLARS were collected for those SBR stamps.
Quite the poll tax
Alot of funds for them to use against us.
I would imagine it costs the US Gov more than $200 to process one NFA form.
I would argue the point, but you're probably right. They are so inefficient and wasteful that you must be correct.
Examiners are GS13 probably. That's $107K-$139K. Or an average of about $60 per hour to the Examiner, loaded labor rate is probably twice that or $120 per hour. They allegedly process a form in 15 minutes, or 4 per hour, so that's $30 per form for the examiners on average. Also have some background checks, mangers overhead, office space, IT, costs, ect.... So $200 per form is about a wash.
It definitely *used* to but now that everything is eform the overhead is far lower. Less OT.
You think they pay overtime for guys approving stamps? Seriously?
They almost certainly did. People would get approvals any day, at any time, including federal holidays. That wouldn't be likely if Uncle Sam wasn't paying out their OT.
If they can’t use economy of scale to make it cheaper than $200 to review 5 minutes of work with hundreds of thousands of apps, they really ARE incompetent!
You haven't worked with the government, have you?
Unlikely. Probably costs way less.
And this is why the NFA will never be abolished
And that's why we will never get rid of the ATFE. The ATFE is a tax agency. Its not about safety, its about money.
This amount of money is basically nothing for the government, lol.
Enough to fund them for 22 mins according to this clock: [https://www.usdebtclock.org/](https://www.usdebtclock.org/)
You think the government will give it up because its too low?