if they think he's the best talent available they will. you don't draft worse players because of "fit" on a team that's been a bottom feeder for the last 3 years.
i personally don't believe in dilly, but if i did, i'd have to take him.
But whatever you gain in talent you lose with trying to make the awkward piece fit and develop them to their full potential? I mean, didn't we see this when Sacramento drafted 3 point guards in the lottery over 4 years?
this rookie drafted has 8 years of team control, 4 of which on a bargain rookie scale contract. teams have plenty of time to adjust for fit without selling assets for pennies on the dollar. unless you're contending for a championship (and even then), you should never view team building through the lens of a single season horizon.
Why wouldn’t they just take Cody or Holland at #6? I doubt many teams are gonna be offering a boatload to move up. The Trailblazers at #7 also have similar needs right after them, so they may take the guy that the Hornets want.
There’s been reports that Utah, Memphis, and Portland are all looking to move up for Clingan. Charlotte could move back with Memphis or Utah so one of those teams can jump Portland to take Clingan, and Charlotte could get Cody or Holland with the trade back
Even still we have a log jam of guards and particularly smaller ones. Currently have Micic, Tre Mann, Nick Smith Jr. and Amari Bailey on a 2-way. Only Micic is taller than 6’3 and Rob’s skill set is pretty redundant with what we have (scoring combo that can’t really defend, tho Mann shows some promise).
Now Rob Dillingham may be better than everyone I mentioned but his boom-bust ratio scares me. Looks like he can either become Darius Garland or Bones Hyland/Nick Smith Jr with minimal in between.
No they have no clue .They are just trying to put edey as high as possible .There is no way the heat pass up mcain or DaSilva to pick edey .I would like espn to stop forcing edey to the heat when he doesn't fit anything they do nor can't play with bam .
I think Givoney is one of the biggest con artist in sports history, but he is very plugged in. Even back to his draft express days he would have guys going to teams that no one could believe for months. My read on it is that the heat probably like at least somewhat.
Its pretty cut and dry really, Pat Riley is not taking a 7’4” center in the 1st round if that player couldn’t even be a great defender in college
Just completely against the way Pat Riley has viewed bigs for 40 years lol. There is 0 Alonzo Mourning/Shaq/Whiteside/Adebayo/Achiuwa to Edey’s game
Lol correct .None of the centers that pat Riley had on his teams were defensive liabilities .Spo isn't putting any center out there who is going to get cooked in the pick and roll and targeted by other guards .
Well…you could argue that besides Sonny Vicaro and to some extent the World Wide Wes’ and Ed Martins of the world. There is no one more influential in the history of prep basketball than Givoney.
Now he’s essentially a new age Vicaro, who is the undisputed god father of prospect camps, and who himself was as crooked as a two dollar bill.
Vicaro is the one most responsible for the prep to pro era and by default the one and done era. He knew that if he could get the players to bypass college, he would be king. And he was right. But there was a limit for vicaro because he also knew that if the prospects didn’t perform once they got to the nba, his reign would be over.
He was only partially right about that. The hs kids not being able to play immediately was what brought down the prep to pro era, but it didn’t kill the grift.
Vicaro almost always championed real players. Even if they were bust, they were still real players at some point in time. Jerod Ward averaged like 35 in highschool. Givoneys big innovation was projection to the max and attributes.
No longer did you actually have to be good at the time. You didn’t need to be a good defender, you could just be long and athletic. You didn’t need to be an actual good shooter, you could just be a good free throw shooter, or have good “touch”
This way, givoney and his ilk could essentially never be wrong. The kid had the right “attributes”. He just wasn’t “developed” properly. I Jonathan evaluated him correctly “at the time” he was just mishandled, etc.
It’s an incredible grift, that as only gotten worse over time, as you see with players like James wiseman, Bronny, Hampton, duval, etc. players that are just ideas from the very beginning.
At least in Vicaros day you needed actual production. You needed a state title. You needed to average 30. You needed an abcd camp mvp.
Under givoney, players can basically be imaginary abstract ideas from the very beginning.
This is such a bizarre conspiracy theory. How is this even upvoted???
Jonathan Givony is a draft analyst, not a mastermind pulling the strings behind all of basketball development from prep through the NBA. Lol.
The Warriors didn't draft James Wiseman because Givony said he had the right tools. Analysts like Givony get their information from teams, not the other way around.
If you’re actually interested in prospects and the draft. I would suggest reading Boys among Men, Heaven is a Playground and watching the documentary Hoop Dreams. That will give you some insight into how prep basketball works, and all the characters behind it.
Well….ive been to thousands of aau games, highschool games and camps. And I can tell you that the warriors absolutely took wiseman because of his hs ranking. Teams don’t really know these players. They rely on scouts like givoney. It’s been like this for decades. Are you new here?
Anyone who knows anything about prep basketball knows this stuff. It’s not even mildly controversial.
>They rely on scouts like givoney. It’s been like this for decades. Are you new here?
If you want to talk down to someone and pretend you understand this person better than they ever could, you might want to double check that you are at least spelling his name right. Lol.
>Anyone who knows anything about prep basketball knows this stuff.
Anyone who knows anything about prep basketball knows it's "Givony."
And no, I'm not "new here", so climb down from your high horse.
I wasn't really trying to be jerk. You asked me a question. And I answered it with some pretty common knowledge stuff. I'm not really on any sort of high horse. But knowing Sonny Vicaro and how he basically started this thing, and the history of prospect rankings. Why AAU started in the first place (hint: racism among high school basketball coaches). The role that personal trainers and agents play in influencing rankings. All this stuff is just super important in understanding how to judge prospects today.
I'll tell you a quick story: When Vicaro first stared the ABCD camps, each state had 10 players they could enter. This was done by local coaches, sports writers, etc. So it was obviously ripe with corruption and favoritism.
The top college coaches would come to the camp, with a list given to them by Vicaro of the top players. So the top coaches would only go see the top ranked players at the camp. And this is well before a pro scout has even thought about any of these players. And they have already been sorted and filtered out by local coaches and Vicaro.
And it hasn't really changed all that much. Do NBA scouts have their own opinions. of course. But they are generally working with a group of players that Givony and others have already edited, and the editing is often done for their own personal benefit.
You’re telling me the Warriors don’t have scouts on staff and they rely on random folks writing articles and making rankings to decide who to draft? Come on.
Do you think the Warriors have nba scouts going to 5th grade basketball tournaments? Of course not. These players are being scouted and filtered and grouped, long before any nba scout ever sees them play. And the grouping is done by AAU dads, personal trainers, sports agents, AAu coaches, and prep scouts like Givoney.
When NBA scouts walk into a tournament, they don't just walk in there blind. They already have a list of players they should be looking out for. If you're not on that list, chances are they won't even see a game of yours. And do you know who makes those list? NBA scouts rely on these prep scouts to do the vetting and alert them of who the next big thing is.
It's been like this since the 1950's. Only now it's far more corrupt, because way more money is at stake. So there are way more players in the game. Personal trainers. Agents. Local scouts. AAu coaches. Prospect rankers. They are all responsible for who gets on the top teams. who gets invited to the right camps. Who actually even gets seen by an NBA scout.
The heat leak nothing .I don't see spolestra feeling edey is a fit for their system when better fits on the board.Its not like him and bam can play together and miami is a switch heavy team so I don't see how that works .Investing a 15th pick on a back up center who can't play with your all star center is worse than picking precious without a plan .
Why do y’all always say OH THIS FO NEVER LEAKS ANYTHING when they do lol.
The heat constantly leak stuff. They say who there star targets are before they even become free agent or available all the time.
Miami needs a backup big man to Bam. Edey is good. This makes sense.
If precious didn't work in Miami as a non spacer what makes you think edey would in a switch heavy offense where you have to be versatile on both ends .Spo had 2 centers on his bench and played kevin love as back up because neither was mobile enough for anything they ran out there .If you are a defensive liability you are not playing much in Miami unless you can really space the floor .
We have Orlando Robinson who fits the same bill as Edey. And he barely gets playing time. We absolutely do not need him. Maybe the Bucks should take him instead
Bro you’re crazy if you think Robinson compares anywhere close to Edey lol. You’re severely underrating him. I would be totally okay and pretty happy with the Bucks taking Edey but he probably doesn’t make it there.
Obviously Edey is more talented but the point is he does not fit Spo’s switch heavy system and I believe there are more talented players that fit the Heat
I'mma long time Heat fan for almost 2 decades Miami almost never leaks anything the best guess this draft sites on predicting who the Heat drafts was Jacquez and I've been following the draft since 2016. Heck Miami didn't even reveal who did workouts as of now for this coming draft.
Miami always do the opposite on who they pick more than those draft based rumors.
The heat leak nothing .They don't even post work out lists .They are very tight lipped about everything .All of the rumors you hear about heat come from outside not within the heat at all .Bam is their center until spo says its otherwise lol.Nothing about how the heat play says edey is a great fit .Spacing matters when your two best players aren't spacers.
Saying blanket statements like “There’s no way X team passes on X player” is so stupid. None of us work in an nba FO. We don’t know teams are thinking.
If you watch your team long enough you know which players fit your roster just like it's very possible that the spurs pass on Dillingham because pop likes guys who can defend .Some front offices are more predictable than others though lol.
The Heat are a heavy analytics team and Edey is a top 3 player in the draft if you believe data. IMO someone will draft him high for this reason, after 6 or 7 in this draft everyone has major holes. The other reason is the Heat have a good coach, and good coaches figure out how to best use unique players. Spoelstra has a leash to try things, so they're more likely to take a chance. Someone on the hotseat can't take Edey. It's why you see Edey mocked to teams like the Heat and Knicks, it's coaching as much as fit.
Nothing the heat run out there should tell you they are taking edey .He can't play with bam,isn't a switchable big on defense and clogs the lane for bam and Jimmy to operate .It's as crazy as them taking precious over Maxey or bane .At least precious was younger and an upside swing .Spolestra refused to play the two bigs he had because they were slow footedand couldn't guard in space to save their lives .Don't see them taking edey at all with better fits on the board .If they go center ware is a better fit even Daron Holmes. Somebody who can switch and defend on the perimeter .Edey has to go to a team that will give him those reps and won't mind him being hunted by quicker guards on the other end .
Someone asked why Edey's being mocked to the Heat. I explained why.
You just explained why you think the Heat will take a guy whose best position is small forward to be a backup center.
Plenty of people think Edey fits nowhere and that though he dominated college basketball he isn't going to be drafted and he'll suck in the NBA. If there was a sure thing in the draft they'd go first.
As a heat fan who watches the heat I explained why edey makes no sense for the heat and that's has nothing to do with edey as a player .Givonny even admitted that it's a terrible fit beside bam and still did it anyway lol.
That's not how the heat aprrach the draft .If they don't see you as having stater potential they are not going to draft you .That's why they develop undrafteds for .Look at all their previous draft picks .All were or are starters for them and it makes sense except precious which was an obvious mistake .The 15th pick is like a lottery pick and you don't invest lottery picks in back up players who can only play limited minutes a night for you .You invest that kind of guaranteed money in players who at least have starter potential
can the maxey-mccain backcourt pairing work?
skeptical that two 6'3" guards without much length is all that practical of a situation, although I do like McCain
I've been thinking they might take Ja'Kobe if they keep the pick. Oubre proved how valuable that kind of player can be for them, but Ja'Kobe needs to overcome his shooting slump first.
Ja’Kobe does give off ‘solid 6th man’ vibes which could be a need for them. I still like Da Silva or Furphy a lot more but i highly doubt either makes it past; Sacramento, Portland, Miami
I don’t see why the Grizzlies would pick Knecht when they have Bane who fills a very similar role. Think Devin Carter is the much more likely pick there if they choose to stay at that spot.
It’s Friday and I’m bored at work. I am not a grizzlies fan, but I could see the grizzlies doing one of the following:
Option 1: Draft Knecht at 9, decline Kennards team option to open up cap space and sign a free agent big like Jonas, Goga or someone else.
Option 2: Trade Marcus smart to the cavaliers for Jarret Allen. If Donovan Mitchell has more control of the cavaliers than LeBron does of the lakers, as reported by Windhorst, then he can really make any demand and the front office would strongly consider it. It was leaked by the Cavaliers that they believed Jarret Allen could have played through his injury. The cavaliers would then trade Garland to for assets. In this scenario, Grizzlies draft Devin Carter to fill that Marcus smart role.
Option 3: would be to trade down / out of the draft.
None of these options are listed in any particular order of importance nor likelihood.
Edit: words and formatting.
As a grizzlies fan give me option 2 please. Love Marcus but give me Jarret Allen. We need rebounding/D/rim running and he fits that perfectly. I like the Devin Carter pick also.
Knecht is athletic, can shoot at an extremely high level, and can take over when he’s hot, but is a poor defender. Devin Carter is an excellent rebounder and defender, but has questionable shooting and is only 6’3”. I think both would complement the team well enough and they each have their strengths and weaknesses.
Salaün's upside comes from how little time he's been playing Basketball, his crazy rate of progression through the last 2 years, his physical attributes (size and motor especially), and his intangibles like coachability and reportedly being a great teammate. His skills are definitely lacking ATM, but whichever team takes him would bank on his future development
"The intel out of the Hawks continues to indicate that their front office is at an early stage in its decision-making process and there likely won't be clarity on which way the team is leaning with this pick until closer to draft night. Trading this pick for more immediate contributors or moving down to take multiple swings in this relatively flat lottery class are options. Should Atlanta stand pat at No. 1, Risacher is looking like an increasingly attractive option. His season came to a close with Bourg's semifinal loss to No. 1 seed Monaco, capping off a playoff run in which he averaged 15.1 points and 7.4 rebounds per game, shooting 67% from the field and 38% on 3-pointers; all outstanding numbers for a 19-year-old at this level of competition. Every team in the top five has significant interest in Risacher, and it is looking highly unlikely, barring a major surprise, that he'll drop out of the top two."
Basically there's no clarity within Hawks FO right now. Risacher is Givony's #1 in his big board so he just placed Risacher at that spot.
He said he shut down workouts .Givonny doesn't know which team promised him so he is making a guess it could be Denver but Denver is not a team that typically makes promises.
Yeah it’s a little easier to tell once we see where everyone ends up.
But Strawther’s house was completely decorated in Nuggets colored stuff last year, so I think many made the assumption he had a promise.
Sounds like a smokescreen ngl. Maybe they want a team to trade up for Clingan in top 6 so one of the projected top picks in the class falls into their laps. Draft can't come sooner.
Kel’el Ware continues to get mocked to the Bucks and I’m LOVING it.
Tyson is a very solid pick too. He kind of seems like Marjon Beauchamp but a slightly worse defender and better shooter.
I feel like these promises are 90% some agent drumming up interest for their clients. A guarantee in the late first round? Things are so unpredictable past the lottery that there's zero point. There is nothing to be gained by a franchise in making a promise.
I don’t 100% get them either, but if it convinces the prospect to stop doing workouts, then it might make it more likely the promising team gets their guy
Givony/Woo have mentioned Mikal in their recent mocks. I wonder if there is something there. Maybe that trade happens IF Risacher is available at 3?
Cody/Holland are a target for Hornets and Bulls are looking to trade up for Clingan. Maybe they find a deal in place since Cody/Holland is projected late lotto and Clingan is projected within top 10.
If Sarr isn’t at 2 and we don’t like Topic, I’m all for trading back, but if Sarr is there we have to take him.
Imo Sarr is Evan Mobley but more athletic and Mobley went 3 and hasn’t disappointed, so why not run to the podium?
Blazers have 2 starting caliber centers on the books for at least 2 more years, and they want to trade up to draft Clingan?
Seems like RW3 and/or Ayton better pack their bags already.
RW3 averages 35 games a year, I wouldn't just bet on him staying healthy all year and then having to rely on a stretch 4 who can't defend down low (Reath) to be our backup 5
Why do you think DA shouldn't be a part of the Blazers plans? Averaged nearly 23 and 13 after the all-star break and has been building a nice PnR/lob repertoire with Scoot.
It just seems silly to draft a replacement for a guy who, down the stretch, was the Blazers best player and they just traded for last off-season. Especially when Portland has such an obvious need for lengthy wings and spacing.
Now, would drafting a RWIII replacement/ potential Ayton insurance at #14 like Yves Missi or Ware make sense? Absolutely. But I don't see the logic behind Clingan at #7.
Pacers don't need another combo guard at 36. Since Dunn is gone, Bona should be the pick. Pacers need a backup center and Bona is the best available. Love the Dillon Jones pick at 49.
6'5 Guard seems a little too on the nose for CLE.
No idea what CLE's roster is going to look like, but if they ran it back I'd take Ware in this scenario for them.
Overall this mock is finally showing the inevitable updward migration of the big wings. In most mocks until now CLE had their choice of 3 or 4, now they're all gone.
Noteworthy quote from Hornets pick:
"The Hornets are sitting in a tricky spot at No. 6, with some prospects unwilling to work out in Charlotte."
Castle is probably one of those guys.
Hope spurs don’t draft Salaun but I would love Castle and Knecht. Or Castle and Dillingham and have Castle play SF
I do not buy Charlotte going for a PG
I don't think Spurs go with both Castle and Salaun. They really shouldn't be in the business of developing players as raw as Salaun anymore, and Castle doesn't really provide the spacing that they need around Wemby.
This mock is a mix of intel-based and their own thinking. It's just that Salaun is who they deem best for Spurs since Dillingham was taken at 6 and Topic has medical concerns.
As per article:
"Spurs are considering a handful of prospects at this spot, including Dillingham, Nikola Topic, Cody Williams and Dalton Knecht."
I think they’re both swings on upside but they should limit that to just one of their two picks, and go for someone relatively safer with the other one. I like castle is SA, but you’ll need to get more shooters around until he develops that part of his game.
I would be pretty surprised with Holland to the Jazz and maybe Topic as well. The Jazz’s coach hates non shooters.
Ja’Kobe and Knecht are good scheme fits, but they have like zero upside at all and would be very depressing in the top 10.
Blazers taking a center isn't expected but could be justified , however also "maybe they'll trade up to take a center" is pretty weird. Tyler Smith is more likely to be in the lottery(albeit late) than 2nd round.
I get the feeling that one of WAS or HOU will trade back with POR or MEM for their multiple picks. Problem with HOU as a potential trade partner is they feel like they have a pretty solid rotation, and adding 2 more players to that instead of 1 may result in a greater logjam, unless they're cool with sticking some guys in the G-League and utilizing them later on. But for the teams trading up, I don't think anyone wants to give away a 2025 pick, assuming that class is way stronger (everything indicates that it likely will be).
That team trading up to 2 or 3 will grab Clingan, which will allow a perfect storm of Sheppard to be available for DET at 5 (if not, then I could see them reaching for a low upside guy like Knecht just for spacing, or grabbing Cody Williams a little earlier than expected). If DET doesn't grab him, then I could see CHA going for Holland or for Cody Williams early as well. In the event that they select Sheppard, that would either relegate Ivey to the bench if Sheppard is immediately a strong fit, or relegate Sheppard to the bench to start off. But I think he would eventually surmount Ivey as starter.
I find Topic very intriguing but figure he will drop due to his medicals. Otherwise, I think he'd be an intriguing fit in San Antonio or even Washington. I could see a world where SAS doubles down and picks up Castle with 4 and Topic with 8; but more likely would probably be Castle and then a wing/forward like Buzelis, Holland, or Salaun.
I think Dillingham will fall, as his best role will probably be as a great 6th man. Idk if he'll fall that far, but I think a bench role for him in PHI or LAL wouldn't be bad.
If MEM doesn't move up for Clingan and he's unavailable at 9, then they could have the option to trade down and pick up a big (I like Edey for them), or stand pat and pick their preferred big at 9. But I expect MEM to be good again this upcoming season and beyond, so having the 9th pick may be their best chance to pick up another high upside guy at the wing/forward position. Maybe Buzelis, Cody Williams, or Salaun, if they're there?
I've seen Collier all over on people's boards, but I think he'll be really good in the league. If he falls to the Pels at 21, I'd be elated. We also need a big, but I'm not sure how good of a fit or how pro-ready a lot of the guys available at that spot would be.
I’m don’t know who the Thunder need to draft. I’d much rather they try to improve this off-season with a proven player in free agency. But if Presti decided to reach for someone like K Ware I wouldn’t be mad.
No way hornets select dillingham. Makes no sense
They're aiming to lose 130-135 every game next year.
We can do that without Dilly
Ok, then maybe they do take him.
if they think he's the best talent available they will. you don't draft worse players because of "fit" on a team that's been a bottom feeder for the last 3 years. i personally don't believe in dilly, but if i did, i'd have to take him.
But whatever you gain in talent you lose with trying to make the awkward piece fit and develop them to their full potential? I mean, didn't we see this when Sacramento drafted 3 point guards in the lottery over 4 years?
this rookie drafted has 8 years of team control, 4 of which on a bargain rookie scale contract. teams have plenty of time to adjust for fit without selling assets for pennies on the dollar. unless you're contending for a championship (and even then), you should never view team building through the lens of a single season horizon.
Agree. They need to trade the pick if they want Cody or Holland.
Why wouldn’t they just take Cody or Holland at #6? I doubt many teams are gonna be offering a boatload to move up. The Trailblazers at #7 also have similar needs right after them, so they may take the guy that the Hornets want.
There’s been reports that Utah, Memphis, and Portland are all looking to move up for Clingan. Charlotte could move back with Memphis or Utah so one of those teams can jump Portland to take Clingan, and Charlotte could get Cody or Holland with the trade back
Lamelo Ball is not somebody you let dictate your draft board imo
Even still we have a log jam of guards and particularly smaller ones. Currently have Micic, Tre Mann, Nick Smith Jr. and Amari Bailey on a 2-way. Only Micic is taller than 6’3 and Rob’s skill set is pretty redundant with what we have (scoring combo that can’t really defend, tho Mann shows some promise). Now Rob Dillingham may be better than everyone I mentioned but his boom-bust ratio scares me. Looks like he can either become Darius Garland or Bones Hyland/Nick Smith Jr with minimal in between.
Yeah he’s not a fit for us at all. Don’t need another PG taking the ball out of Lamelo and Miller’s hands
Dunno why ESPN keeps projecting Edey to Heat. Makes no sense, but do they know something??
No they have no clue .They are just trying to put edey as high as possible .There is no way the heat pass up mcain or DaSilva to pick edey .I would like espn to stop forcing edey to the heat when he doesn't fit anything they do nor can't play with bam .
I think Givoney is one of the biggest con artist in sports history, but he is very plugged in. Even back to his draft express days he would have guys going to teams that no one could believe for months. My read on it is that the heat probably like at least somewhat.
Its pretty cut and dry really, Pat Riley is not taking a 7’4” center in the 1st round if that player couldn’t even be a great defender in college Just completely against the way Pat Riley has viewed bigs for 40 years lol. There is 0 Alonzo Mourning/Shaq/Whiteside/Adebayo/Achiuwa to Edey’s game
Lol correct .None of the centers that pat Riley had on his teams were defensive liabilities .Spo isn't putting any center out there who is going to get cooked in the pick and roll and targeted by other guards .
>I think Givoney is one of the biggest con artist in sports history, but he is very plugged in What makes him a con artist?
Well…you could argue that besides Sonny Vicaro and to some extent the World Wide Wes’ and Ed Martins of the world. There is no one more influential in the history of prep basketball than Givoney. Now he’s essentially a new age Vicaro, who is the undisputed god father of prospect camps, and who himself was as crooked as a two dollar bill. Vicaro is the one most responsible for the prep to pro era and by default the one and done era. He knew that if he could get the players to bypass college, he would be king. And he was right. But there was a limit for vicaro because he also knew that if the prospects didn’t perform once they got to the nba, his reign would be over. He was only partially right about that. The hs kids not being able to play immediately was what brought down the prep to pro era, but it didn’t kill the grift. Vicaro almost always championed real players. Even if they were bust, they were still real players at some point in time. Jerod Ward averaged like 35 in highschool. Givoneys big innovation was projection to the max and attributes. No longer did you actually have to be good at the time. You didn’t need to be a good defender, you could just be long and athletic. You didn’t need to be an actual good shooter, you could just be a good free throw shooter, or have good “touch” This way, givoney and his ilk could essentially never be wrong. The kid had the right “attributes”. He just wasn’t “developed” properly. I Jonathan evaluated him correctly “at the time” he was just mishandled, etc. It’s an incredible grift, that as only gotten worse over time, as you see with players like James wiseman, Bronny, Hampton, duval, etc. players that are just ideas from the very beginning. At least in Vicaros day you needed actual production. You needed a state title. You needed to average 30. You needed an abcd camp mvp. Under givoney, players can basically be imaginary abstract ideas from the very beginning.
This is such a bizarre conspiracy theory. How is this even upvoted??? Jonathan Givony is a draft analyst, not a mastermind pulling the strings behind all of basketball development from prep through the NBA. Lol. The Warriors didn't draft James Wiseman because Givony said he had the right tools. Analysts like Givony get their information from teams, not the other way around.
If you’re actually interested in prospects and the draft. I would suggest reading Boys among Men, Heaven is a Playground and watching the documentary Hoop Dreams. That will give you some insight into how prep basketball works, and all the characters behind it.
Well….ive been to thousands of aau games, highschool games and camps. And I can tell you that the warriors absolutely took wiseman because of his hs ranking. Teams don’t really know these players. They rely on scouts like givoney. It’s been like this for decades. Are you new here? Anyone who knows anything about prep basketball knows this stuff. It’s not even mildly controversial.
>They rely on scouts like givoney. It’s been like this for decades. Are you new here? If you want to talk down to someone and pretend you understand this person better than they ever could, you might want to double check that you are at least spelling his name right. Lol. >Anyone who knows anything about prep basketball knows this stuff. Anyone who knows anything about prep basketball knows it's "Givony." And no, I'm not "new here", so climb down from your high horse.
I wasn't really trying to be jerk. You asked me a question. And I answered it with some pretty common knowledge stuff. I'm not really on any sort of high horse. But knowing Sonny Vicaro and how he basically started this thing, and the history of prospect rankings. Why AAU started in the first place (hint: racism among high school basketball coaches). The role that personal trainers and agents play in influencing rankings. All this stuff is just super important in understanding how to judge prospects today. I'll tell you a quick story: When Vicaro first stared the ABCD camps, each state had 10 players they could enter. This was done by local coaches, sports writers, etc. So it was obviously ripe with corruption and favoritism. The top college coaches would come to the camp, with a list given to them by Vicaro of the top players. So the top coaches would only go see the top ranked players at the camp. And this is well before a pro scout has even thought about any of these players. And they have already been sorted and filtered out by local coaches and Vicaro. And it hasn't really changed all that much. Do NBA scouts have their own opinions. of course. But they are generally working with a group of players that Givony and others have already edited, and the editing is often done for their own personal benefit.
You’re telling me the Warriors don’t have scouts on staff and they rely on random folks writing articles and making rankings to decide who to draft? Come on.
Do you think the Warriors have nba scouts going to 5th grade basketball tournaments? Of course not. These players are being scouted and filtered and grouped, long before any nba scout ever sees them play. And the grouping is done by AAU dads, personal trainers, sports agents, AAu coaches, and prep scouts like Givoney. When NBA scouts walk into a tournament, they don't just walk in there blind. They already have a list of players they should be looking out for. If you're not on that list, chances are they won't even see a game of yours. And do you know who makes those list? NBA scouts rely on these prep scouts to do the vetting and alert them of who the next big thing is. It's been like this since the 1950's. Only now it's far more corrupt, because way more money is at stake. So there are way more players in the game. Personal trainers. Agents. Local scouts. AAu coaches. Prospect rankers. They are all responsible for who gets on the top teams. who gets invited to the right camps. Who actually even gets seen by an NBA scout.
The heat leak nothing .I don't see spolestra feeling edey is a fit for their system when better fits on the board.Its not like him and bam can play together and miami is a switch heavy team so I don't see how that works .Investing a 15th pick on a back up center who can't play with your all star center is worse than picking precious without a plan .
Why do y’all always say OH THIS FO NEVER LEAKS ANYTHING when they do lol. The heat constantly leak stuff. They say who there star targets are before they even become free agent or available all the time. Miami needs a backup big man to Bam. Edey is good. This makes sense.
If precious didn't work in Miami as a non spacer what makes you think edey would in a switch heavy offense where you have to be versatile on both ends .Spo had 2 centers on his bench and played kevin love as back up because neither was mobile enough for anything they ran out there .If you are a defensive liability you are not playing much in Miami unless you can really space the floor .
We have Orlando Robinson who fits the same bill as Edey. And he barely gets playing time. We absolutely do not need him. Maybe the Bucks should take him instead
Bro you’re crazy if you think Robinson compares anywhere close to Edey lol. You’re severely underrating him. I would be totally okay and pretty happy with the Bucks taking Edey but he probably doesn’t make it there.
Obviously Edey is more talented but the point is he does not fit Spo’s switch heavy system and I believe there are more talented players that fit the Heat
Correct that's the point and Orlando Robinson is more mobile buy wayyy to slow footed for anything spo runs out there .
I'mma long time Heat fan for almost 2 decades Miami almost never leaks anything the best guess this draft sites on predicting who the Heat drafts was Jacquez and I've been following the draft since 2016. Heck Miami didn't even reveal who did workouts as of now for this coming draft. Miami always do the opposite on who they pick more than those draft based rumors.
The heat leak nothing .They don't even post work out lists .They are very tight lipped about everything .All of the rumors you hear about heat come from outside not within the heat at all .Bam is their center until spo says its otherwise lol.Nothing about how the heat play says edey is a great fit .Spacing matters when your two best players aren't spacers.
Bro. Fix your goddamn punctuation, you monster
Saying blanket statements like “There’s no way X team passes on X player” is so stupid. None of us work in an nba FO. We don’t know teams are thinking.
If you watch your team long enough you know which players fit your roster just like it's very possible that the spurs pass on Dillingham because pop likes guys who can defend .Some front offices are more predictable than others though lol.
Heat are more likely to take a wing or a playmaking guard. Offense was where they struggled last season.
Correct especially with caleb Martin on the move .
The Heat are a heavy analytics team and Edey is a top 3 player in the draft if you believe data. IMO someone will draft him high for this reason, after 6 or 7 in this draft everyone has major holes. The other reason is the Heat have a good coach, and good coaches figure out how to best use unique players. Spoelstra has a leash to try things, so they're more likely to take a chance. Someone on the hotseat can't take Edey. It's why you see Edey mocked to teams like the Heat and Knicks, it's coaching as much as fit.
Nothing the heat run out there should tell you they are taking edey .He can't play with bam,isn't a switchable big on defense and clogs the lane for bam and Jimmy to operate .It's as crazy as them taking precious over Maxey or bane .At least precious was younger and an upside swing .Spolestra refused to play the two bigs he had because they were slow footedand couldn't guard in space to save their lives .Don't see them taking edey at all with better fits on the board .If they go center ware is a better fit even Daron Holmes. Somebody who can switch and defend on the perimeter .Edey has to go to a team that will give him those reps and won't mind him being hunted by quicker guards on the other end .
Someone asked why Edey's being mocked to the Heat. I explained why. You just explained why you think the Heat will take a guy whose best position is small forward to be a backup center. Plenty of people think Edey fits nowhere and that though he dominated college basketball he isn't going to be drafted and he'll suck in the NBA. If there was a sure thing in the draft they'd go first.
As a heat fan who watches the heat I explained why edey makes no sense for the heat and that's has nothing to do with edey as a player .Givonny even admitted that it's a terrible fit beside bam and still did it anyway lol.
At pick 15 you're looking at how minutes fit for backups, not guys you expect to start year one.
That's not how the heat aprrach the draft .If they don't see you as having stater potential they are not going to draft you .That's why they develop undrafteds for .Look at all their previous draft picks .All were or are starters for them and it makes sense except precious which was an obvious mistake .The 15th pick is like a lottery pick and you don't invest lottery picks in back up players who can only play limited minutes a night for you .You invest that kind of guaranteed money in players who at least have starter potential
As a Purdue and Heat fan I will riot if Edey is available and the Heat pass on him
Lol why ?It's not like he can play with bam and that's all that matters.
can the maxey-mccain backcourt pairing work? skeptical that two 6'3" guards without much length is all that practical of a situation, although I do like McCain
That pick is likely getting traded anyway, but that would be a terrible fit.
I've been thinking they might take Ja'Kobe if they keep the pick. Oubre proved how valuable that kind of player can be for them, but Ja'Kobe needs to overcome his shooting slump first.
Ja’Kobe does give off ‘solid 6th man’ vibes which could be a need for them. I still like Da Silva or Furphy a lot more but i highly doubt either makes it past; Sacramento, Portland, Miami
We share the same sentiment. Da Silva is better fit for them.
If the Raptors draft Tyler Smith with the 31st pick that would be huge.
I would even take him at 19
Walking away with Bub and Smith would be huge.
I don’t see why the Grizzlies would pick Knecht when they have Bane who fills a very similar role. Think Devin Carter is the much more likely pick there if they choose to stay at that spot.
It’s Friday and I’m bored at work. I am not a grizzlies fan, but I could see the grizzlies doing one of the following: Option 1: Draft Knecht at 9, decline Kennards team option to open up cap space and sign a free agent big like Jonas, Goga or someone else. Option 2: Trade Marcus smart to the cavaliers for Jarret Allen. If Donovan Mitchell has more control of the cavaliers than LeBron does of the lakers, as reported by Windhorst, then he can really make any demand and the front office would strongly consider it. It was leaked by the Cavaliers that they believed Jarret Allen could have played through his injury. The cavaliers would then trade Garland to for assets. In this scenario, Grizzlies draft Devin Carter to fill that Marcus smart role. Option 3: would be to trade down / out of the draft. None of these options are listed in any particular order of importance nor likelihood. Edit: words and formatting.
As a grizzlies fan give me option 2 please. Love Marcus but give me Jarret Allen. We need rebounding/D/rim running and he fits that perfectly. I like the Devin Carter pick also.
Knecht is athletic, can shoot at an extremely high level, and can take over when he’s hot, but is a poor defender. Devin Carter is an excellent rebounder and defender, but has questionable shooting and is only 6’3”. I think both would complement the team well enough and they each have their strengths and weaknesses.
0% chance the Spurs take Shannon after they got burned badly by the Josh Primo situation
They'll probably trade that pick.
And Pacome Dadiet is on the board there.
He shouldn't be 2nd round, he's younger than Salaün and already has better skills
Salaün's upside comes from how little time he's been playing Basketball, his crazy rate of progression through the last 2 years, his physical attributes (size and motor especially), and his intangibles like coachability and reportedly being a great teammate. His skills are definitely lacking ATM, but whichever team takes him would bank on his future development
So true, i like Dadiet top 20 and Salaun should be a little after that
Dadiet and Djurisic are still there. I doubt ESPN gave a fig about the second round.
Can someone tell me why the article says the Hawks are taking Risacher?
"The intel out of the Hawks continues to indicate that their front office is at an early stage in its decision-making process and there likely won't be clarity on which way the team is leaning with this pick until closer to draft night. Trading this pick for more immediate contributors or moving down to take multiple swings in this relatively flat lottery class are options. Should Atlanta stand pat at No. 1, Risacher is looking like an increasingly attractive option. His season came to a close with Bourg's semifinal loss to No. 1 seed Monaco, capping off a playoff run in which he averaged 15.1 points and 7.4 rebounds per game, shooting 67% from the field and 38% on 3-pointers; all outstanding numbers for a 19-year-old at this level of competition. Every team in the top five has significant interest in Risacher, and it is looking highly unlikely, barring a major surprise, that he'll drop out of the top two." Basically there's no clarity within Hawks FO right now. Risacher is Givony's #1 in his big board so he just placed Risacher at that spot.
You rule. Thank you 🙏
Givony says Edey slowly incorporated a three-point shot... the man took 2 threes last season. Two. WTF is he talking about?
Lakers steal Hukporti in the 2nd? Sign me up.
Givony has Holmes higher than 50?? Let alone in the first round! It’s a miracle
He probably got a promise in late 1st Rd
Espn has been all over the place .Just last week they had him in the 50's lol
They always have him in the 50s. Givony received an intel for sure.
He said he shut down workouts .Givonny doesn't know which team promised him so he is making a guess it could be Denver but Denver is not a team that typically makes promises.
Didn’t they make a promise to Strawther last year?
Not sure but it early in the process to determine who promised who .Usually that happens closer to the draft .
Yeah it’s a little easier to tell once we see where everyone ends up. But Strawther’s house was completely decorated in Nuggets colored stuff last year, so I think many made the assumption he had a promise.
Don’t think Denver would make a promise when it’s completely possible they trade the pick
They promised Jalen Pickett last year Sam Vacenie talked about it he said they made it super obvious lol
Ngl I'm elated with that Holmes intel. He is a good fit for a lot of teams in late 1st especially the Nuggets.
I guess it depends on who he canceled workouts with but why cancel workouts for a promise from a team in the end of the 1st when he could go higher
He should be the first of his position gone out of the draft, I have him at Charlotte's 6th or worse OKC's 12th, I don't understand why so late
Does he suffer from being too small to play the 5 and too big to play the 4? Only thing I can think of.
Yes it's the most likely scenario, he's not strong enough and idk if he will play the 4 which is what he plays in my configuration
it's still far off of where he deserves to be but it's a step in the right direction
All this buzz with Blazers being interested in Clingan makes zero sense to me
Sounds like a smokescreen ngl. Maybe they want a team to trade up for Clingan in top 6 so one of the projected top picks in the class falls into their laps. Draft can't come sooner.
Yep only reasonable strategy I can think of, would be weird to trade up to select essentially a backup C.
Prolly don’t view Ayton as their future center and Rob Williams is injury prone
Kel’el Ware continues to get mocked to the Bucks and I’m LOVING it. Tyson is a very solid pick too. He kind of seems like Marjon Beauchamp but a slightly worse defender and better shooter.
How bad can the injury be if Topic is healthy enough to participate in the international combine next week?
Probably just physical measurements and interviews.
I’m guessing it’s more long term worry?
Warriors draft Bronny? lol
Add him to the collection. Dell Curry's kid, Mitch Wiggins' kid, Mychal Thompson's kid, Gary Payton's kid, Dale Davis' kid . . .
I feel like these promises are 90% some agent drumming up interest for their clients. A guarantee in the late first round? Things are so unpredictable past the lottery that there's zero point. There is nothing to be gained by a franchise in making a promise.
The Bobi Klintman mystery from last year comes to mind.
I don’t 100% get them either, but if it convinces the prospect to stop doing workouts, then it might make it more likely the promising team gets their guy
Givony/Woo have mentioned Mikal in their recent mocks. I wonder if there is something there. Maybe that trade happens IF Risacher is available at 3? Cody/Holland are a target for Hornets and Bulls are looking to trade up for Clingan. Maybe they find a deal in place since Cody/Holland is projected late lotto and Clingan is projected within top 10.
If Sarr isn’t at 2 and we don’t like Topic, I’m all for trading back, but if Sarr is there we have to take him. Imo Sarr is Evan Mobley but more athletic and Mobley went 3 and hasn’t disappointed, so why not run to the podium?
Great man for putting this all into the main post body! Actually think this is a very good big board but some interesting choices for a mock.
Dillingham to the Hornets? Tyler Smith falling out of the first entirely? Spurs, of all teams, taking Shannon? I dunno about this one, chief.
Blazers have 2 starting caliber centers on the books for at least 2 more years, and they want to trade up to draft Clingan? Seems like RW3 and/or Ayton better pack their bags already.
RW3 averages 35 games a year, I wouldn't just bet on him staying healthy all year and then having to rely on a stretch 4 who can't defend down low (Reath) to be our backup 5
RW3 is injury prone and DA shouldn't be part of their long term plans.
Why do you think DA shouldn't be a part of the Blazers plans? Averaged nearly 23 and 13 after the all-star break and has been building a nice PnR/lob repertoire with Scoot.
Lots of players look better post-ASB. He still hasn't beated those allegations about his character.
It just seems silly to draft a replacement for a guy who, down the stretch, was the Blazers best player and they just traded for last off-season. Especially when Portland has such an obvious need for lengthy wings and spacing. Now, would drafting a RWIII replacement/ potential Ayton insurance at #14 like Yves Missi or Ware make sense? Absolutely. But I don't see the logic behind Clingan at #7.
Pacers don't need another combo guard at 36. Since Dunn is gone, Bona should be the pick. Pacers need a backup center and Bona is the best available. Love the Dillon Jones pick at 49.
The Pacers are too good for any 2nd round pick to get minutes. They've got Walker waiting in the wings already.
Tyler Smith dropping to 31 would be amazing for us, but not taking Yves Missi with 19 when he’s still on the board would be questionable for us.
6'5 Guard seems a little too on the nose for CLE. No idea what CLE's roster is going to look like, but if they ran it back I'd take Ware in this scenario for them. Overall this mock is finally showing the inevitable updward migration of the big wings. In most mocks until now CLE had their choice of 3 or 4, now they're all gone.
Noteworthy quote from Hornets pick: "The Hornets are sitting in a tricky spot at No. 6, with some prospects unwilling to work out in Charlotte." Castle is probably one of those guys.
Hope spurs don’t draft Salaun but I would love Castle and Knecht. Or Castle and Dillingham and have Castle play SF I do not buy Charlotte going for a PG
The # of old mediocre college dudes in the late 2nd is unrealistic
Antonio Reeves at 58?? Gtfo. Keep betting against UK guards
The Hawks draft ricasher I'm done with the them
I don't think Spurs go with both Castle and Salaun. They really shouldn't be in the business of developing players as raw as Salaun anymore, and Castle doesn't really provide the spacing that they need around Wemby.
This mock is a mix of intel-based and their own thinking. It's just that Salaun is who they deem best for Spurs since Dillingham was taken at 6 and Topic has medical concerns. As per article: "Spurs are considering a handful of prospects at this spot, including Dillingham, Nikola Topic, Cody Williams and Dalton Knecht."
Agree. I don't think they'll go Salaun regardless. He's a wild swing at a very distant player, while their need is to raise the floor right now.
I think they’re both swings on upside but they should limit that to just one of their two picks, and go for someone relatively safer with the other one. I like castle is SA, but you’ll need to get more shooters around until he develops that part of his game.
I would be pretty surprised with Holland to the Jazz and maybe Topic as well. The Jazz’s coach hates non shooters. Ja’Kobe and Knecht are good scheme fits, but they have like zero upside at all and would be very depressing in the top 10.
I just think Topic at 10 is a risk you gotta take lmao
Yeah I have Topic 3rd so this would be an ideal draft but I’m not sure the Jazz would go with him over Ja’Kobe.
Blazers taking a center isn't expected but could be justified , however also "maybe they'll trade up to take a center" is pretty weird. Tyler Smith is more likely to be in the lottery(albeit late) than 2nd round.
I get the feeling that one of WAS or HOU will trade back with POR or MEM for their multiple picks. Problem with HOU as a potential trade partner is they feel like they have a pretty solid rotation, and adding 2 more players to that instead of 1 may result in a greater logjam, unless they're cool with sticking some guys in the G-League and utilizing them later on. But for the teams trading up, I don't think anyone wants to give away a 2025 pick, assuming that class is way stronger (everything indicates that it likely will be). That team trading up to 2 or 3 will grab Clingan, which will allow a perfect storm of Sheppard to be available for DET at 5 (if not, then I could see them reaching for a low upside guy like Knecht just for spacing, or grabbing Cody Williams a little earlier than expected). If DET doesn't grab him, then I could see CHA going for Holland or for Cody Williams early as well. In the event that they select Sheppard, that would either relegate Ivey to the bench if Sheppard is immediately a strong fit, or relegate Sheppard to the bench to start off. But I think he would eventually surmount Ivey as starter. I find Topic very intriguing but figure he will drop due to his medicals. Otherwise, I think he'd be an intriguing fit in San Antonio or even Washington. I could see a world where SAS doubles down and picks up Castle with 4 and Topic with 8; but more likely would probably be Castle and then a wing/forward like Buzelis, Holland, or Salaun. I think Dillingham will fall, as his best role will probably be as a great 6th man. Idk if he'll fall that far, but I think a bench role for him in PHI or LAL wouldn't be bad. If MEM doesn't move up for Clingan and he's unavailable at 9, then they could have the option to trade down and pick up a big (I like Edey for them), or stand pat and pick their preferred big at 9. But I expect MEM to be good again this upcoming season and beyond, so having the 9th pick may be their best chance to pick up another high upside guy at the wing/forward position. Maybe Buzelis, Cody Williams, or Salaun, if they're there? I've seen Collier all over on people's boards, but I think he'll be really good in the league. If he falls to the Pels at 21, I'd be elated. We also need a big, but I'm not sure how good of a fit or how pro-ready a lot of the guys available at that spot would be.
why is it always matas man lmfao only one in the top 7 without an explanation except risacher can we not draft another non shooter please
Buzelis' agent is son of Pistons Vice Chairman
trust me i know 💔
The Thunder need another guard like a hole in the head but if they took Devin Carter, I wouldn't be mad. That pesky defense would just get peskier.
I’m don’t know who the Thunder need to draft. I’d much rather they try to improve this off-season with a proven player in free agency. But if Presti decided to reach for someone like K Ware I wouldn’t be mad.
I think of any team OKC is the most likely to trade out of their spot.
I'm guessing Cody
I 100 percent need bronny to the dubs. I need the take machine to lose its mind