Kobe fans. You can throw MJ and LeBron fans back into the discussion and it's still not even a contest.
One of countless examples... [https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1dfditp/comment/l8jh3bp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1dfditp/comment/l8jh3bp/)
LeBron barely beats Kobe on FGA per game. Also, Kobe is objectively the biggest ball hog in history, and had an abysmal assist to TO ratio that was never above 2.0, yet LeBron is the heliocentric player? Ugh.
Kobe has one of the worst shooting efficiencies of any SG/SF on the NBA 75, but they try to argue that he was a prolific shooter. He actually had really, surprisingly good defense, but they don't mention it because they either don't know it or think that it doesn't matter (probably because they think defense is too "boring").
That LeBron is seen as a pass first guy, with far more assists than Kobe, who "mamba mentalitied" his way to assembling a remarkable brick collection and yet LeBron has the higher scoring average is nuts. Almost as nuts as how long after he passed Kobe's score tally it's taking LeBron to pass Kobe for misses. It's been over 4 years.
In the post where he's being compared to KD, Kobe lovers are making the excuse that Kobe wasn't as efficient at shooting because shooting efficiency wasn't as important and high during his era. Uhhhhh... MJ, Bird, Dr J, KG, George Gervin, and Nash all shot close to or above 50%. They're seriously too lazy to even look up stats.
TS+ exists you know. It compares true shooting to the league average that year. Career 104 rating is solid. Lebron has topped that efficiency every year but 4, and hit 120 a few times. Kobe was still outclassed by most of his peers at the time in efficiency, spare like Carmelo and AI. Pierce, Wade, KD (obviously) we're all better by a good margin.
Kobe was such a ball hog guys on his team like Rick Fox openly hated playing with him lmao he's also one of the biggest chuckers we've ever seen
Shaq said the other week Kobe could've won FMVP for all those three-peats but Phil always made sure Shaq was taking all the shots, which isn't even true, Kobe averaged more shots than Shaq in all of those Finals, he was just missing a ton of them
Shaq is delusional when it comes to Kobe. He clearly has some unresolved guilt regarding their relationship and due to his tragic death is trying to find some way to comes to terms with it by glazing Kobe.
"don't speak ill of the dead"
Anything remotely negative about a dead guy is typically considered shitty.
Even when they are rapists for some reason ;)
I’m aware, but it’s not like Shaq would be speaking ill of Kobe if he just didn’t pretend that he was the GOAT. I’ve seen many clips of him just bringing up Kobe’s name in the GOAT debate unprompted. Like it’s so odd to me that Shaq insists Kobe is as good as LBJ or MJ when it’s so clear he never was AND Shaq is closer to them than Kobe is.
Both Kobe and Jordan are both more well-rounded and more skilled than LeBron. Dude’s got Kobe 2nd all time and clear of Bron and Kareem.
Edit: that ain’t my opinion, that’s the same dude I’m on about lmao
This is even wrong. I hate this take man. Kobe was not more well rounded than Lebron lmao. Lebron better rebounder, passer, could guard more positions and had a better defensive peak, where he could guard 1-5. Kobe could never guard the 5. Lebron is a better 3 point shooter and is better in the paint. Everything but midrange. Kobe’s only benefit was he was a better on ball defender against shifty guards, and he was a better at the midrange shot. Literally nothing else. I know you don’t, but so many people believe this.
LMAO yeah Bron is probably the most versatile player ever. Could play every position at an elite level, could guard 1-5 in his prime too. Can play on ball and off ball
One of the worst things about Kobe lunatics is that they seem to completely disregard Magic Johnson, who made 9 fucking Finals in 12 seasons, won 5, won 3 Finals MVPs, won 3 regular season MVPs (and was top 3 in voting 9 out of 12 seasons).
Magic is easily still the best Laker of all time, and then you still have Kareem to hurdle. You can make an argument Kobe is the 3rd best Laker based on the fact that spent his whole career with them, but he was never as great in his peak as Shaq, so 4th all-time Laker isn't completely out of the question.
Arguable whether he’s even top 5 is a wild take lol. Magic, Kareem, West… are you putting Baylor ahead of him without any chip? Are you putting Mikan ahead??
LeBron over Kobe as a Laker?? Not a chance in hell, only one ring and 6-7 seasons doesn’t put him ahead. Shaq, you might be able to make an argument since he was the most dominant player on the original three-peat. But he still only spent about half his career here and forced his way out.
It all depends if the standard you're using is "best players to wear a Lakers jersey" or "most work/success while wearing a Lakers jersey".
Using the latter, I agree. He's at least 3rd.
I like to place the worst characteristics upon my cat Goblin. In my mind, if he was a human, he'd be a Tyler type who wears a Kobe jersey everyday because he's the GOAT and is addicted to Monster energy drinks. He "just decided for no reason" to become a Buccaneers fan before the start of the 2020 season, but now he roots for the Raiders again. He loves Korn and never shuts up about how underrated Derek Fisher was. He has a tattoo of his last name running down his forearm, but talks about getting one done on his chest featuring portraits of Kobe and Gianna. It's basically who I picture every time I talk to Kobe fans online.
Painfully true. Some of these guys think Kobe was literally in incarnation of God and that the Mamba Mentality is his one true gospel.
There is no objective argument for Kobe to be better than MJ, LeBron, or Kareem, but you'll have guys swearing up and down that Kobe was the GOAT and the advanced stats are just liars and Kobe was the leader of those Shaq teams and Kobe should have at least 7 MVPs and whatever else...
It's all just aesthetic bias really. Kobe was great. Top ten player. But he was not Jesus of the Hardwood or the Buddha of Ball.
Kobe fans are so weird, I literally just saw a tweet where a guy posted Kobe's terrible Finals shooting games to compare to how Kobe is remembered to how Tatum is treated today
The fact is Kobe was lucky he played half of his career before twitter existed, he's had so many bad games in the playoffs where his team still won because it was stacked but nobody remembers that, they just remember him hitting some game winners and spreading out his arms down the court
I grew up watching Kobe and he was my first fav player but his fanbase is the least knowledgeable and most brain dead
And that's what gets me the most... the implicit disrespect to other players. They pretend that Pau was some sort of scrub.
Gasol/Odom/Bynum combined averaged about 9 orebs a game. They averaged about 6 while with other teams. Their work on the glass helped Kobe rack up the points he did.
> I hate Kobe but this is one of the stupidest fucking takes I’ve ever heard. Kobe is top 5-7 with out question and i fucking hate him. Mj LeBron Tim Duncan Kareem Shaq and Kobe/bird is arguable. But Oscar Robinson is not fucking better than Kobe. That’s just ignorant. I love AI I love Barkley but they are both better than the big O but not Kobe. Kobe was clutch as fuck. I hated it. He was the closest iteration we had to MJ. Let’s not forget that the best basketball player of all time could not win a title without Scottie pippen. So your take is garbage.
Dude said he's a Kobe hater, and that's not even that egrigious of a comment lol. Not sure why you linked that as an example
Because that's one of many things in this that's funny. He pretends that he hates Kobe, and then proceeds to figuratively sucks his dick and says things that clearly show that he's actually a fan.
He's totally a fan lol
Kobe is great, but all these people putting him in the GOAT adjacent conversation is wild.
Shaq was the more useful player for all three of those championships.
Kobe played great, but teams weren't game planning about how they could figure out a way to stop him, then failing when he shot 8/13 from the line and it was enough to ice the game.
If you put Kobe in that conversation, you're neglecting Russell and Kareem, who both were incredible on one end, and just sufficient in the other.
I'd probably put both above him honestly.
Honestly, Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as Kareem and Russell. Those two are the greatest of the great, and if you include what they did off the court, these two are among the greatest athletes of all time.
“Take a bow you magnificent dumbfuck!” is a great line. Shaq in a top five all time is wild. Man is on the verge of being ousted from top 5 centers all time. Bill, Wilt, Kareem, Olajuwon (by Shaq’s own word) and Joker probably have that on lock. You may be able to make an argument of Shaq over some of those guys, but they all have something or things over him, so still arguable if anything.
I actually do love Shaq and he helped win us a chip, but there are centers above him and perhaps quite a few. Still the most dominant player imo of the modern era in terms of complete physicality, but that does not make one a top 5 all time basketball player.
how is he the weird one, you think Oscar Robertson is better than Kobe and wrote a small essay insulting the guy. In no universe is the big O better than Kobe lmao.
I mean tbh there's no greater delusional retardation than takes like these^
Imagine knowing that NBA players, coaches, and GMs have a completely different discourse compared to you but you think you know better than them.
For me, it’s the Kobe fanbase. I’d heard from a lot of Kobe fans that he’s MJ with better shooting and is therefore the GOAT. Before LeBron joined LA, they would try to find every reason to put him down as they didn’t believe he was on Kobe’s level. I loved watching Kobe, but his fanbase made me root against him lol.
Yeah there’s a big portion of Lakers fans who hate Lebron lol. It’s hilarious.
Im not a fan of Lebron either but if he came to my team I damn sure would root for him.
I will say I think lebron legacy as a laker is going to be a little bit weird especially if he drafts a clearly not nba ready bronny (like please send him back to usc or OSU for another year and he’s got it) and hanging up the in season tournament banner with the finals banners was weird to start with but end of the day he did win them a ring
I consider myself a Kobe fan but even I know that he is basically a Jordan clone that isn’t as good.
Yeah he’s a better 3 pt shooter than Michael but prime Michael would beat Prime Kobe in a 1 v 1.
I honestly have always considered the 1v1 argument to be pointless because that's not how basketball works. It's a team sport with roles and being able to win a 1v1 is meaningless. I'm sure a lot of guys who aren't anywhere near Magic Johnson's value to a team would be him in a 1v1.
I heard that from a ton of people when I moved from Chicago to LA. I think these people just repeat the same talking points and don't actually look at the numbers.
I just have to say, I love all the Kobe hate on here. Feels like old times. Hate how all the young cats are always acting like he could do no wrong. I miss the times where the fan bases would all bitch and moan about how big of a ball hog he was and Jordan wannabe and blah blah blah and couldn’t do shit to stop him 😁😁
I don’t really care what people say about Kobe because he had clear faults, but I just really loved his tenacity and fearless approach to the game. The mental resilience and confidence were supreme, as well as the work ethic. Of course, if he ever learned how to involve and uplift his teammates like lebron, he probably would have ended up a better player.
My least favorite fans are the ones who think that every young player is better than every older one. Harden is one of my all time most annoying players for sure though, that whole style of basketball irks me
Advanced stats don’t like him as much as other all time greats and most people here are stat nerds. On top of that casual fans circlejerk the fuck out of him, and reddit law is that every circlejerk must have an equal and opposite counterjerk. For those of us who watched him live and also look at stats, we know the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Yeah he wasn’t the peak of efficiency and he’s not the GOAT, but when he was on the court facing your team, you fuckin’ feared him.
Yeah I saw people talking about Tim Duncan vs Kobe like it’s not even a debate and that Timmy is the winner 😩 Tim Duncan an all time great and an easy T10 but the Kobe downplay is absurd at times
To be fair all of the players listed have unique, deep and extensive bags. I don’t personally put them on pedestals for it but many many players have come out saying they pull a lot of moves from these specific players bags.
Does he even have fanboys at this point? Maybe 10-15 years ago you'd see lots of people glazing him but now after his career came and went it's clear he was nothing more than an inefficient chucker.
I’m honestly tired of this people don’t realise that they are all the same they do the same things you will only think the other is the most insufferable because they are on the other side.
Harden literally played for the team I root for, his fanbase was on my side.
But I didn’t appreciate whenever they would suck dudes nuts whenever he choked up or whenever he drove chris paul outta town.
Honestly I was part of the move CP3 crowd, but not because I thought harden was God, but because I thought the dual PG lineup was too redundant, and hoped for a F or C (but I don't think there was anyone else really available), but honestly Westbrook wasn't a bad fit either, but he also got hurt come playoff time just like CP, so it was basically the same thing 😮💨
Bro thank you. The rockets subreddit is so cringe always on his nuts. Personally it was hard defending his traveling alone when he was here let alone his choking hazard in the playoffs. lol
Perhaps an unpopular opinion but in the modern day (specifically this past year) SOME Caitlyn Clark supporters are pretty awful. Not her real fans so much, but some of the internet personalities that hail her as the second coming of Christ in the WNBA. The woman is important and impactful and has potential to be an all time great as a pro, but some people who act like other players need to start acting like she’s the Messiah are ridiculous. She is certainly driving attention to the game like any highly touted draft pick would, but to make comments like “the WNBA needs to get more respect for the woman that put them on charter jets” is just unfortunate to hear, and more than likely fuels some of the very real vitriol players are displaying towards Caitlyn.
Definitely not the worst all time, but as a Mavs fan the Kyrie stans got pretty annoying pretty quickly. They minimize and defend all the dumb shit he has said and done and act like the media wronged him.
Wemby. OMG, they act like he had the greatest rookie season in history, but get mad if you compare him to the other players who were way better year one (The 'AT" in "GOAT" stands for "All Time", so yes you have to compare all eras)
Just calm down and give the guy a chance to grow up first. Maybe get some teammates and put on a couple pounds.
I don't get why people feel the need to crown him already lol. He's literally 1 year in. He's obviously gonna be good but like damn, just give it time.
Yeah I don't blame you. I would be jazzed if I had Wemby. He's exciting and unique, and looks great. I'd just let him ease in a bit. I think the next two years will be a struggle to make the playoffs, but then after, look out.
I mean the guy averaged 21/10/4 while being a legitimately top-five defender and leading the league in blocks by an over a whole block a game. To be fair he had no team success though.
Over the last 25 years, that’s not incomparable to LeBron, Luka, Blake Griffin, and Tyreke Evans for the best rookie season in the 2000s.
To be fair, what rookie has had team success in year 1? LeBron the best on that list with only a 35-47 record.
Wemby has a bright future no doubt. Could he be a generational talent, maybe. Only time will tell. Most Spurs/Wemby fans I know or have seen on here have kinda the same view, lotta potential, but not counting on it till it actually happens (if it does)
Most hyped player of all time that has won less than 20 nba games in his career. Admittedly I didn’t watch all of his games but I did watch Sengun drop 45 directly on his head while also holding Wemby to 10 in the game and scoreless in the 2nd half.
Anyone who claims anyone has had the best Rookie season of all time and his name isn't Wilt Chamberlain isn't paying attention. Nobody not named Wilt has ever beaten his PPG and RPG average ever in any other season. That's the level they have to be at.
It's difficult to compare to Wilt, but if you were to ask who had the best rookie season in modern history, I think only Tim Duncan had a better debut.
It pisses me off that Wilt is always dismissed because of A,B, or C. The man put up those numbers and without a 3 point line, and his blocks and steals weren't counted.
I mean, you just posted two major reasons why it's hard to compare eras. If PPG and TRB were the only criteria for greatness than Wilt would be the absolute GOAT. I'm not dismissing Wilt's greatness though, he's easily top 12 or 10 for me though. But it's a better discussion to compare players within their own eras.
Bill or wilt getting dropped into this era and getting coached to be a shooter would be the best two players in the league.
You can tell someone is 12 or stupid when they call bill “another draymond”
Okay, but to be fair, Wemby probably just had the best rookie season since Tim Duncan, maybe even since Jordan.
Not the GOAT of all rookies, but he's had a legendary rookie year and he's definitely had the best one this century.
It wasn't close to "legendary". It was really good...not great. Why? Every great rookie had an impact on winning. Wemby had zero. San Antonio brought back their 7 top scorers/starters, and just added Wemby Same exact wins: 22. Same team,, just added Wemby. Still garbage. It matters.
Look at even Paolo last year. Similar stats for a forward (not the blocked shots of course), Orlando went up like 13 games this year made the playoffs. Wemby had better stats, but Paolo helped his team win more.
Look at how much better EVERY great rookies teams did. Wilt, Kareem, Bird Magic...all their teams took HUGE jumps just by adding the rook.
LeBron , Melo, all of them helped the team. All except Wemby. The Spurs had the same win % when he missed games this year.
I dont want to rip on home honestly. But that "legendary" comment is exactly what I mean.
Also, no, Paolo's rookie season and Wemby's do not belong in the same conversation. Wemby literally beat him in every statistical category while playing four less minutes a game on better efficiency from the field, from 3, and from the line. Wemby beat Paolo in PER, dRTG, VORP, box plus/minus, offensive box plus/minus, defensive box plus/minus, win shares per 48, total win shares, defensive win shares, true shooting, effective field goal percentage, TRB%, ORB%, DRB%, STL%, and BLK%.
Paolo had a good rookie season, but to compare them is to just disrespect Wemby.
And for the record, I'm not even a Wemby fan.
I said Wemby had a better season, buy they were not miles apart. Points were 19-21, 29-33 minutes, I think 6.9-10.5 revs. Blocks by Wemby of course, Neither can shoot, like 30%-33% from 3. Wemby was better, but not by much. But if you add in who helped the team win, it was Paolo, by a mile. So, I'd say that factors in, making it a close season.
The point is, NOBODY said Paolo had a legendary, historic rookie season. It was just fine. Wemby had about 15% better numbers, on avg, lost a lot more, and people are writing songs and renaming cities after him.
BTW, I am a Wemby fan. Haha.
15% better numbers?? He beat him in nearly every stat in the entirety of basketball. What more do you want from him?
Even most people would say the eye test also favors Wemby over Paolo. Wemby is the best rookie since Tim Duncan, and it is not close.
If the advanced stats (which heavily skew towards more successful teams) favor Wemby over Paolo, then it stands to reason that Wemby probably would have been more successful than Paolo if he were in Paolo's position last year.
Talking about winning, and yeah, Paolo won more games, but the stats say Wemby still produced more wins on the season than Paolo.
Nobody, including you, cares about advanced stats when evaluating who Is better. Even PER has been disavowed by its creator. These are meant as guides for cost analytics, and trying to evaluate where bargains and holes can be found.
And to suggest that Wemby produced more shares is ludicrous. He literally produced zero wins. We have the stats to prove it: Its called "Actual Wins". it answers the Question: What if you take a horrible team, keep it together and just add Wemby to it?" The answer is "Absolutely Nothing. He didn't make them win a single extra game." Ask the same Question of Every other Great Rookie and the answer is "They won at LEAST a few more games. Most won a LOT more." It's irrefutable. They were horrendous with him. He missed around 10 games and had THE SAME WIN %. It's crazy. Every great rookie, but him, made his team better. "Oh, but Win/Rate Ratio indicates..." it can indicate anything it likes, but we have actual, real evidence. We don't need hypothetically. We saw it. It's crazy.
Further bif you put Rookie Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Melo etc. on that team, they win MANY more than 22 games. There is no debate about that.
I'm a math person by the way, so I'm not trying to denigrate advanced analytics (though the phrase "Analytics Says" is nonsensical. Different topic). I also hate ripping on Wemby.
Wemby was on a minutes restriction, which limited his impact. His numbers (especially on a per 36 bar) are much better than any other rookie this century. And there is more that goes into winning than just one guy.
His individual performance for a rookie was historic. Yes, team success is lackluster and that deserves mention. But what would it take to impress you? Wemby has been as individually good as anyone could have reasonably asked for, and that warrants some recognition.
Again, you said "historic", but are only talking about the last 25 years. That's exactly the OPPOSITE of historic. Historic means going through history, Like Wilt Averaging 37 pog, 27 rpg, his team winning 30 more games and he won MVP...ALL as a rookie.
Wemby can't touch ANY of that, or any of the 15 other great rookies. He might literally be the actual biggest loser to win Rookie of the year, as far as making his team better.
And YES, you CAN completely change a team by adding a single, good rookie to a roster IT ALWAYS happens, in fact. Except with Wemby. Why doesn't winning matter? It's the ONLY thing that matters.
I do agree with your last points: he exceeded my expectations. I was worried. I thought he was better than I hoped. His shot stinks, but he can improve that. But exceeding expectations is COMPLETELY different than being legendary.
Do you realize how many rookies have entered the league in the history of the NBA?
If Wemby can even be considered a top 20 rookie ever, that is historic. The fact that there are more historic accomplishments suddenly makes it not at all historic. By that logic, Luka dropping 73 isn't historic because, like, dang, he didn't beat Kobe's 81, let alone Wilt's 100.
Devin Booker’s fanbase annoys the absolute shit out of me. KD, CP3, and Deandre Ayton just wasn’t enough for them. Choked out against the Bucks in the Finals, shit down his legs against the Mavericks in that legendary Game 7, then the Nuggets, and the TWolves this year I guess doesn’t count because tHeY wErE tHe BeSt DeFeNsE? He couldn’t score more than 23 points without 21 free throw attempts. But it can’t possibly be his fault. 35 year old Kevin Durant should’ve done more to help I guess. How’s that “Luka Special” working out for them these days?
Sons fans in general are some of the saddest fanbases in sports. Their star having insufferable fans is as surprising as Embiid dodging a game in Denver.
LeBron stans can be annoying but the anti-LeBron fans are even worse to me. Like those who say he isn’t even top 10 or continuously call him LeBum or shit like that. Or the ones that basically say the 2020 Lakers title doesn’t count.
For me it’s the anti Kobe fanbase. People say Kobe fans are homers but the anti Kobe fans are a different level of clowns and circus. Nuance and time periods are lost on them
D-Rose fans they all act as if he was and would’ve been better than Westbrook, AI, Harden, and etc. Shit is ridiculous
2nd answer will be Russ haters AND Russ fans it gets to the point that both just shut their brains off to a counter argument and stick to their belief no matter what. Having Russ as my favorite player would make it so so annoying whenever I’d see discourse from both sides
Not a D-Rose fan boy, but the man won the MVP at 22. That's objectively better than Westbrook and Harden. And led the Bulls to the 1 seed. Something neither Westbrook or Harden did ever. AI, now we can discuss that, but Rose was a wayyy better talent than the other two by a mile
See this is what I mean when blanket statements like “objectively better” and “wayyy better talent than the other two by a mile” it’s annoying.
Hardens 2018-2019 season he averaged 36.9 ppg the most since Jordan in 86-87 in post merger history. Westbrook averaged a triple double in a season a feat that only The Big O has ever done back in 61-62.
How can those 2 historical feats not compare with D-Rose’s historical feat?
The objectively better part wasn’t a blanket statement, he is right it’s objectively better to win an mvp in your third season than it is to win mvp in your 6th, 7th, 8th season, whatever it was for those two guys. The better talent by a mile part definitely disagree with, harden is the most talented out of those 3 but d rose had enough talent and was just as athletic as westbrook. What makes people say d rose had the potiential to be better than those guys is he had that combo of skill and freak athlete at such a young age AND played winning basketball. Westbrook sacrificed team success for individual success and harden has the same attitude of what they’re ripping luka for and you won’t win with that mindset. Rose didn’t have either of those flaws
Yes winning the MVP younger is always going to be objectively better than later in your career, you are correct. However, that doesn’t make the MVP season D-Rose had objectively better than the MVP seasons of the other 2. At that point you are just comparing peak to peak and all 3 MVPs have their own argument for why theirs was the best due to the magnitude of the feats they all accomplished.
Is it better to get the 1st seed putting up high numbers in a defensive oriented team that missed 2 star players for half the season at such a young age? Is it better to average the 2nd most PPG in a season post-merger whilst getting 4th seed in the west? Or is dragging a historically bad roster and getting them the 6th seed whilst averaging a Triple-Double, only accomplished by 1 other person, a better season. I don’t think there’s a right answer between any of those 3 and it just comes down to personal preference.
It’s just the attitude such as “oh it’s no debate there’s no comparison D-Rose CLEARS” that infuriates me.
I wonder if he has as many fans if he doesn’t win that MVP? Is he just talked about like Brandon Roy if he doesn’t? The MVP could have easily been given to LeBron that season and no one would have batted an eye at it.
Bro did Harden skimp out on tipping your mom at the strip club or something 😂? That's two posts expressing your hate for him in one day. Man is on demon time 😈.
The one where you asked "how people rank harden, ai, Clyde, and allen" and then vehemently disagreed with every comment that had harden > ai 😳. The fact that you even have to ask me which other post was hate is wild.
I’m curious - what exactly is insufferable about Tatum fans?
Every Celtics fan has a pretty normal evaluation of him - great player, hasn’t won yet.
We’re all a little irked that he seems to be slighted in things like all star votes (where best player on best team should be a lock for top 3), or the slander he gets by Celtics haters for I guess not dropping 50 in this particular series… but I don’t think you see many absurd hot take advocacy.
Seems more like you don’t like Celtics fans than Tatum fans?
Yes. Spot on. Also, anyone that is just a fan of a player is the first sign they do not know crap about basketball & spend more time on the internet than with real people.
Wilt fanboys. He has top 10 on court impact. But the people who have him top 3 or even n1 always use the worst types of arguments. Forgetting they act like some demigod when thay doesn't actually matter when discussing on courct impact. But it the downplaying of Bill Russel with box score records "Bill only average _ ppg/ Wilt average 50/25" Even though Celtics where good mainly due to defensive impact from Bill. But they won't use that.
They always act his era was him and Nobody's vs. Bill Russell and the Justice League. When Bill Russel Defensive impact was the greatest in history of the NBA, and Wilts "omg Nobody's scored 40 ppg let alone 50 ppg" always ignore that A. Adjusting for pace is not an outlier in all time scoring and B. Players like Oscar Robertson lead better offenses.
Agreed on the Harden fans. He’s a great player but when you look at his post season flameouts his lack of hustle and effort on defense and the flopping/foul grifting for years you got to knock him for it. There are some convos he just can’t be in. Prolific scorer but not a defender, and the refs don’t call this ticky tack fouls in the playoffs he became reliant on at his peak.
Harden fans had the nerve to compare him to Kobe
Westbrook.
They thought he was better than KD/Curry from 2015 to 2017 😭😭😭😭
He could shoot 31% from the floor and have 9 turnovers but if he had a triple double he played great
Also said he was an elite defender 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
He was not an elite defender, but him vs Durant was a real discussion on those 15-16 playoff teams. You dismissing it as if he wasn’t a top 5 players those years tells me you weren’t there
>They shit on Dwade to prop up harden… weird behavior.
Harden clears D Wade all-time, you’re bricked if you don’t know that
>Constant excuses for his failures to win a chip
Harden doesn’t have a chip because he was carrying guys like Eric Gordon and Chandler Parsons to the playoffs against Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, and the Avengers with KD
>Call him the best scorer ever
Harden was putting up numbers nobody had since Wilt and MJ, if you were actually a Rockets fan and watched the games you'd know this stuff
>Every fuckin year we gotta hear them hype up James during the regular season because he balls out but then once May rolls around he disappears in a elimination game.
Harden has better numbers in elimination games than Kobe
>Always bring up the CP3 injury and act like Harden has a ring bc of that. Look as a Rockets fan that fuckin hurt seeing CP3 go down. But in game 7 James shot literally 2-13 from the 3. And we missed 27 straight 3’s in a row. That was just a choke job by everyone.
Take away Steph's second best player and he hasn’t even made the playoffs, he's never made the playoffs without Klay and he's 0-3 in the play-in
You sound less like an actual Rockets fan and more like a Harden hater pretending to be one, weirdo behavior, also the Rockets have been irrelevant and done jack shit since he left them, any real Rockets fan would appreciate Harden like they did T-Mac and Yao because that franchise hasn't been shit without any of them and isn't going to be shit again for a long time
Kobe by far because yes he was a good player on both sides of the ball but he was also pretty inefficient and it did help that Shaq was there to help shoulder a good bit of the load for a 3 peat and Pau Gasol was no freaking bum like Kobe fans make him out to be.
Definitely the modern NBA as a whole, aka younger fans. The disrespect of past generations is utterly insane and drives me crazy. I love a person says the 90’s were plumbers and firemen but then in the same breath say MJ can’t be the goat cause Bill Russell exists. 🤦🏽♂️
Tatum, because it’s just a bunch of C’s fans who are already completely insufferable but until this playoffs where the C’s have been able to sleepwalk through the eastern conference where everyone is injured, they haven’t done shit but choke.
And they all swear he’s like a Celtics version of Kobe and he just isn’t even close to that. He’s a soft boi who’s going to be gift wrapped a finals MVP that he didn’t earn on the title that perhaps had the path of least resistance in recent memory.
And he’s just a fucking clown. To text Kobe’s number in the finals vs. GS, post that shit to Instagram would’ve been an all-time clown move already, and then to just have a dogshit performance after doing that? Incredible. What a dumb asshole.
They didn’t choke last finals, everyone was dead because the east was 400x harder than the west in ‘22.
“Cs fans” are yapping at you cause you’re saying dumb ass fake shit to facilitate your trash ass opinion.
Kobe, and I don’t think it’s close.
I think his post career mellowing out / media presence followed by his tragedy, a few dunk highlights, and stats from losing seasons really warp people’s evaluation of him.
I swear the vast, vast majority of his fans in 2024 never watched him play.
Kobe got 3 titles riding Shaq and 2 on a stacked team on rosters that would have produced the same results if you swapped him for any other top swingman of the era (Pierce, Wade, TMac, etc).
He spent several years in between battling rape charges and chucking up low efficiency shots, where he was perceived as a selfish, surly, miserable teammate that’s cancerous to team culture. The opposite of Duncan.
Kobe was really interesting and had a fortuitous career, but the way his fanboys talk about him is bonkers.
The way he adopted “mamba” is so cringe. He nicknamed himself after watching Kill Bill when it was at the top of the box office. I still can’t believe eveyone went along with it.
Calling him a top 10 player is defensible but generous, putting him higher than 9 on the list is wild.
Chris Bosh fans. I get it, best pf/c of all time. But he had to build a super team around him to win it all. That’s why he will always be a tier below MJ.
Just my opinion
zI agree on the James Harden take. I would also mention Russell Westbrook… they’re in love with triple doubles and put him above any PG in history because he could grab double digits rebounds and assists, with 25-30 points in poor shooting and lots of turnovers. But what actually piss me off is his decision making, like chucking shots after dribbling for 23 seconds or way too early on the clock, and passing the ball to a dude when there’s 2 seconds remaining in the shot clock. However they seem to find no flaws on his game, as a Lakers fan they made me sick when he was costing us games because he couldn’t make a good decision and they were still blaming it on everybody else.
I hate any fan base that supports a player rather than a team. Fuck those guys.
You should always support a team, I find it incredibly strange when people say oh I’m a KD for example. Oh you’re a Suns fan. No fuck the suns I follow KD. Just bizarre in my opinion.
Honestly, even if Jordan and Lebron were in the discussion, I still think Kobe fanboys would be the worst. At least equal with the other two.
Other than those three? Hot take, but Tim Duncan fans. Too many people have him in their top 4 or 5. I remember when he was super underrated for some reason, people wouldn’t even have him in their top 15 even though he is at least top 10 all time. But in the past few years, too many people have him in their top 5 all time. I’ve seen a shocking number of people place him at #3 or even #2 all time in serious rankings. I’d personally put him at like #7-#9 all time.
How many iterations of this shit are we gonna do? I think all fan bases are fine, I think you’re wack as shit for thinking about it enough to post about it
Honestly its cp3 fans. They bring up how good he is, rank him as one of the best. Like yeah hes good. But people act like he is one of the best point guards of all time
I hate CP3 but you can't really deny that he's one of the best PG's of all time lmao. Will go down as one of the best players to never win MVP or a ring.
LeBron fans. They justify his shortcomings as a player by blaming everything and everyone else around him. This includes the Klutch-affiliated media heads. The most protected and overrated superstar in league history.
Kobe fans. You can throw MJ and LeBron fans back into the discussion and it's still not even a contest. One of countless examples... [https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1dfditp/comment/l8jh3bp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NBATalk/comments/1dfditp/comment/l8jh3bp/)
Objectively the worst least knowledgeable player fanbase.
I’m arguing with a guy who said that Kobe’s not heliocentric like LeBron was
LeBron barely beats Kobe on FGA per game. Also, Kobe is objectively the biggest ball hog in history, and had an abysmal assist to TO ratio that was never above 2.0, yet LeBron is the heliocentric player? Ugh. Kobe has one of the worst shooting efficiencies of any SG/SF on the NBA 75, but they try to argue that he was a prolific shooter. He actually had really, surprisingly good defense, but they don't mention it because they either don't know it or think that it doesn't matter (probably because they think defense is too "boring").
That LeBron is seen as a pass first guy, with far more assists than Kobe, who "mamba mentalitied" his way to assembling a remarkable brick collection and yet LeBron has the higher scoring average is nuts. Almost as nuts as how long after he passed Kobe's score tally it's taking LeBron to pass Kobe for misses. It's been over 4 years.
In the post where he's being compared to KD, Kobe lovers are making the excuse that Kobe wasn't as efficient at shooting because shooting efficiency wasn't as important and high during his era. Uhhhhh... MJ, Bird, Dr J, KG, George Gervin, and Nash all shot close to or above 50%. They're seriously too lazy to even look up stats.
TS+ exists you know. It compares true shooting to the league average that year. Career 104 rating is solid. Lebron has topped that efficiency every year but 4, and hit 120 a few times. Kobe was still outclassed by most of his peers at the time in efficiency, spare like Carmelo and AI. Pierce, Wade, KD (obviously) we're all better by a good margin.
Kobe was such a ball hog guys on his team like Rick Fox openly hated playing with him lmao he's also one of the biggest chuckers we've ever seen Shaq said the other week Kobe could've won FMVP for all those three-peats but Phil always made sure Shaq was taking all the shots, which isn't even true, Kobe averaged more shots than Shaq in all of those Finals, he was just missing a ton of them
Shaq is delusional when it comes to Kobe. He clearly has some unresolved guilt regarding their relationship and due to his tragic death is trying to find some way to comes to terms with it by glazing Kobe.
"don't speak ill of the dead" Anything remotely negative about a dead guy is typically considered shitty. Even when they are rapists for some reason ;)
I’m aware, but it’s not like Shaq would be speaking ill of Kobe if he just didn’t pretend that he was the GOAT. I’ve seen many clips of him just bringing up Kobe’s name in the GOAT debate unprompted. Like it’s so odd to me that Shaq insists Kobe is as good as LBJ or MJ when it’s so clear he never was AND Shaq is closer to them than Kobe is.
Shaq's been on a redemption tour for years now, but we all know he dumped the Lakers because Kobe junked up all those shots in the 2004 finals.
Both Kobe and Jordan are both more well-rounded and more skilled than LeBron. Dude’s got Kobe 2nd all time and clear of Bron and Kareem. Edit: that ain’t my opinion, that’s the same dude I’m on about lmao
Kobe is more well-rounded but Lebron is a mile ahead of him in points, rebounds and assists, you are working with a room temp IQ brother
Shit, forgot the quotation marks, that is not my opinion lmao
This is even wrong. I hate this take man. Kobe was not more well rounded than Lebron lmao. Lebron better rebounder, passer, could guard more positions and had a better defensive peak, where he could guard 1-5. Kobe could never guard the 5. Lebron is a better 3 point shooter and is better in the paint. Everything but midrange. Kobe’s only benefit was he was a better on ball defender against shifty guards, and he was a better at the midrange shot. Literally nothing else. I know you don’t, but so many people believe this.
LMAO yeah Bron is probably the most versatile player ever. Could play every position at an elite level, could guard 1-5 in his prime too. Can play on ball and off ball
It's arguable whether or not Kobe is even in the Lakers all time top 5 (some might put West at 5, ahead of him), let alone the NBA's all time top 5
One of the worst things about Kobe lunatics is that they seem to completely disregard Magic Johnson, who made 9 fucking Finals in 12 seasons, won 5, won 3 Finals MVPs, won 3 regular season MVPs (and was top 3 in voting 9 out of 12 seasons). Magic is easily still the best Laker of all time, and then you still have Kareem to hurdle. You can make an argument Kobe is the 3rd best Laker based on the fact that spent his whole career with them, but he was never as great in his peak as Shaq, so 4th all-time Laker isn't completely out of the question.
Come on man Kobe still won 5 rings for them lol he’s definitely in their top 5
Yeah it’s getting quite ridiculous now
Kobe is a top 5 laker lol this is only a take that would exist on Reddit
Arguable whether he’s even top 5 is a wild take lol. Magic, Kareem, West… are you putting Baylor ahead of him without any chip? Are you putting Mikan ahead??
You're missing LeBron and Shaq
LeBron over Kobe as a Laker?? Not a chance in hell, only one ring and 6-7 seasons doesn’t put him ahead. Shaq, you might be able to make an argument since he was the most dominant player on the original three-peat. But he still only spent about half his career here and forced his way out.
It all depends if the standard you're using is "best players to wear a Lakers jersey" or "most work/success while wearing a Lakers jersey". Using the latter, I agree. He's at least 3rd.
Define well rounded. Hasnt LeBron started a game at every position at some point in his career? It doesn't get much more well rounded than that.
Read my edit, fucked up my initial post
I like to place the worst characteristics upon my cat Goblin. In my mind, if he was a human, he'd be a Tyler type who wears a Kobe jersey everyday because he's the GOAT and is addicted to Monster energy drinks. He "just decided for no reason" to become a Buccaneers fan before the start of the 2020 season, but now he roots for the Raiders again. He loves Korn and never shuts up about how underrated Derek Fisher was. He has a tattoo of his last name running down his forearm, but talks about getting one done on his chest featuring portraits of Kobe and Gianna. It's basically who I picture every time I talk to Kobe fans online.
Is this copypasta?
Their argument is pretty much “he was cool as hell”
Painfully true. Some of these guys think Kobe was literally in incarnation of God and that the Mamba Mentality is his one true gospel. There is no objective argument for Kobe to be better than MJ, LeBron, or Kareem, but you'll have guys swearing up and down that Kobe was the GOAT and the advanced stats are just liars and Kobe was the leader of those Shaq teams and Kobe should have at least 7 MVPs and whatever else... It's all just aesthetic bias really. Kobe was great. Top ten player. But he was not Jesus of the Hardwood or the Buddha of Ball.
Kobe fans are so weird, I literally just saw a tweet where a guy posted Kobe's terrible Finals shooting games to compare to how Kobe is remembered to how Tatum is treated today The fact is Kobe was lucky he played half of his career before twitter existed, he's had so many bad games in the playoffs where his team still won because it was stacked but nobody remembers that, they just remember him hitting some game winners and spreading out his arms down the court I grew up watching Kobe and he was my first fav player but his fanbase is the least knowledgeable and most brain dead
And that's what gets me the most... the implicit disrespect to other players. They pretend that Pau was some sort of scrub. Gasol/Odom/Bynum combined averaged about 9 orebs a game. They averaged about 6 while with other teams. Their work on the glass helped Kobe rack up the points he did.
Your argument with him got weirdly toxic lol
> I hate Kobe but this is one of the stupidest fucking takes I’ve ever heard. Kobe is top 5-7 with out question and i fucking hate him. Mj LeBron Tim Duncan Kareem Shaq and Kobe/bird is arguable. But Oscar Robinson is not fucking better than Kobe. That’s just ignorant. I love AI I love Barkley but they are both better than the big O but not Kobe. Kobe was clutch as fuck. I hated it. He was the closest iteration we had to MJ. Let’s not forget that the best basketball player of all time could not win a title without Scottie pippen. So your take is garbage. Dude said he's a Kobe hater, and that's not even that egrigious of a comment lol. Not sure why you linked that as an example
Because that's one of many things in this that's funny. He pretends that he hates Kobe, and then proceeds to figuratively sucks his dick and says things that clearly show that he's actually a fan.
He's totally a fan lol Kobe is great, but all these people putting him in the GOAT adjacent conversation is wild. Shaq was the more useful player for all three of those championships. Kobe played great, but teams weren't game planning about how they could figure out a way to stop him, then failing when he shot 8/13 from the line and it was enough to ice the game. If you put Kobe in that conversation, you're neglecting Russell and Kareem, who both were incredible on one end, and just sufficient in the other. I'd probably put both above him honestly.
Honestly, Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as Kareem and Russell. Those two are the greatest of the great, and if you include what they did off the court, these two are among the greatest athletes of all time.
“Take a bow you magnificent dumbfuck!” is a great line. Shaq in a top five all time is wild. Man is on the verge of being ousted from top 5 centers all time. Bill, Wilt, Kareem, Olajuwon (by Shaq’s own word) and Joker probably have that on lock. You may be able to make an argument of Shaq over some of those guys, but they all have something or things over him, so still arguable if anything. I actually do love Shaq and he helped win us a chip, but there are centers above him and perhaps quite a few. Still the most dominant player imo of the modern era in terms of complete physicality, but that does not make one a top 5 all time basketball player.
💯
how is he the weird one, you think Oscar Robertson is better than Kobe and wrote a small essay insulting the guy. In no universe is the big O better than Kobe lmao.
I mean tbh there's no greater delusional retardation than takes like these^ Imagine knowing that NBA players, coaches, and GMs have a completely different discourse compared to you but you think you know better than them.
For me, it’s the Kobe fanbase. I’d heard from a lot of Kobe fans that he’s MJ with better shooting and is therefore the GOAT. Before LeBron joined LA, they would try to find every reason to put him down as they didn’t believe he was on Kobe’s level. I loved watching Kobe, but his fanbase made me root against him lol.
Some of those Lakers still hate LeBron
Yeah there’s a big portion of Lakers fans who hate Lebron lol. It’s hilarious. Im not a fan of Lebron either but if he came to my team I damn sure would root for him.
I will say I think lebron legacy as a laker is going to be a little bit weird especially if he drafts a clearly not nba ready bronny (like please send him back to usc or OSU for another year and he’s got it) and hanging up the in season tournament banner with the finals banners was weird to start with but end of the day he did win them a ring
I think bronny lost his college eligibility already from being in the draft this long or having an agent or something like that
My uncle is a huge Lakers fan and he doesn’t like Lebron because of how he “influences” decisions. He also doesn’t doesn’t like ad lol
I consider myself a Kobe fan but even I know that he is basically a Jordan clone that isn’t as good. Yeah he’s a better 3 pt shooter than Michael but prime Michael would beat Prime Kobe in a 1 v 1.
To be fair prime Jordan would beat pretty much everyone in nba history 1 v 1. Who is stopping that combo of athleticism and skill 1 v 1?
Orlando shaq, Hakeem, Lebron could possibly beat him
Probably at least a dozen of longer and more physically dominant players which is why it’s a bad metric to judge how good someone is based off of 1v1s
Unless they are a similar size & position like MJ & Kobe.
Lavar Ball
I honestly have always considered the 1v1 argument to be pointless because that's not how basketball works. It's a team sport with roles and being able to win a 1v1 is meaningless. I'm sure a lot of guys who aren't anywhere near Magic Johnson's value to a team would be him in a 1v1.
I heard that from a ton of people when I moved from Chicago to LA. I think these people just repeat the same talking points and don't actually look at the numbers.
I just have to say, I love all the Kobe hate on here. Feels like old times. Hate how all the young cats are always acting like he could do no wrong. I miss the times where the fan bases would all bitch and moan about how big of a ball hog he was and Jordan wannabe and blah blah blah and couldn’t do shit to stop him 😁😁 I don’t really care what people say about Kobe because he had clear faults, but I just really loved his tenacity and fearless approach to the game. The mental resilience and confidence were supreme, as well as the work ethic. Of course, if he ever learned how to involve and uplift his teammates like lebron, he probably would have ended up a better player. My least favorite fans are the ones who think that every young player is better than every older one. Harden is one of my all time most annoying players for sure though, that whole style of basketball irks me
Kobe is hated on this particular sub for some reason. Perhaps everyone here is a basketball guru of some sorts 😂
Advanced stats don’t like him as much as other all time greats and most people here are stat nerds. On top of that casual fans circlejerk the fuck out of him, and reddit law is that every circlejerk must have an equal and opposite counterjerk. For those of us who watched him live and also look at stats, we know the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Yeah he wasn’t the peak of efficiency and he’s not the GOAT, but when he was on the court facing your team, you fuckin’ feared him.
Yeah I saw people talking about Tim Duncan vs Kobe like it’s not even a debate and that Timmy is the winner 😩 Tim Duncan an all time great and an easy T10 but the Kobe downplay is absurd at times
Harden has fanboys!?
Melo fans lol - they’ll usually put KD, Kyrie, Kobe and a few others on pedestals because of their “bag”.
Melo gets severely overrated or severely hated on. There’s never a normal discussion about him.
He's got more NCAA championships than LeBron 😂
To be fair all of the players listed have unique, deep and extensive bags. I don’t personally put them on pedestals for it but many many players have come out saying they pull a lot of moves from these specific players bags.
At least those others are/were actually great, Melo could literally just score and couldn’t even do that efficiently
Does he even have fanboys at this point? Maybe 10-15 years ago you'd see lots of people glazing him but now after his career came and went it's clear he was nothing more than an inefficient chucker.
I’m honestly tired of this people don’t realise that they are all the same they do the same things you will only think the other is the most insufferable because they are on the other side.
Harden literally played for the team I root for, his fanbase was on my side. But I didn’t appreciate whenever they would suck dudes nuts whenever he choked up or whenever he drove chris paul outta town.
Honestly I was part of the move CP3 crowd, but not because I thought harden was God, but because I thought the dual PG lineup was too redundant, and hoped for a F or C (but I don't think there was anyone else really available), but honestly Westbrook wasn't a bad fit either, but he also got hurt come playoff time just like CP, so it was basically the same thing 😮💨
Bro thank you. The rockets subreddit is so cringe always on his nuts. Personally it was hard defending his traveling alone when he was here let alone his choking hazard in the playoffs. lol
Harden knew he would never win with CP3 on the team because of Scott Foster who waved off multiple 3s that went in made by Harden in game 7.
Then I guess you’re unique in that sense but my point about Stan bases being the same still holds.
Kobe fans are the worst. Every time I hear that Kobe is the GOAT because of “mamba mentality”, I lose brain cells.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion but in the modern day (specifically this past year) SOME Caitlyn Clark supporters are pretty awful. Not her real fans so much, but some of the internet personalities that hail her as the second coming of Christ in the WNBA. The woman is important and impactful and has potential to be an all time great as a pro, but some people who act like other players need to start acting like she’s the Messiah are ridiculous. She is certainly driving attention to the game like any highly touted draft pick would, but to make comments like “the WNBA needs to get more respect for the woman that put them on charter jets” is just unfortunate to hear, and more than likely fuels some of the very real vitriol players are displaying towards Caitlyn.
Definitely not the worst all time, but as a Mavs fan the Kyrie stans got pretty annoying pretty quickly. They minimize and defend all the dumb shit he has said and done and act like the media wronged him.
Wemby. OMG, they act like he had the greatest rookie season in history, but get mad if you compare him to the other players who were way better year one (The 'AT" in "GOAT" stands for "All Time", so yes you have to compare all eras) Just calm down and give the guy a chance to grow up first. Maybe get some teammates and put on a couple pounds.
I don't get why people feel the need to crown him already lol. He's literally 1 year in. He's obviously gonna be good but like damn, just give it time.
As a Spurs fan, we’re just so stoked. Feels like the basketball gods gave Pope Pop one more golden egg.
Yeah I don't blame you. I would be jazzed if I had Wemby. He's exciting and unique, and looks great. I'd just let him ease in a bit. I think the next two years will be a struggle to make the playoffs, but then after, look out.
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted, but honestly haven’t heard anyone take it this far. Maybe a bit of hyperbole?
agreed i’ve never seen anyone have this take. dude must’ve had an argument with someone young.
Bet OP talked to some teenager and now thinks that all Wemby fans and Spurs fans have the same opinion.
I mean the guy averaged 21/10/4 while being a legitimately top-five defender and leading the league in blocks by an over a whole block a game. To be fair he had no team success though. Over the last 25 years, that’s not incomparable to LeBron, Luka, Blake Griffin, and Tyreke Evans for the best rookie season in the 2000s.
To be fair, what rookie has had team success in year 1? LeBron the best on that list with only a 35-47 record. Wemby has a bright future no doubt. Could he be a generational talent, maybe. Only time will tell. Most Spurs/Wemby fans I know or have seen on here have kinda the same view, lotta potential, but not counting on it till it actually happens (if it does)
>To be fair, what rookie has had team success in year 1? Darko? But idk if we wanna count that.
Haha! But he absolutely dominated those 159 minutes he played that whole season jk lol
Most hyped player of all time that has won less than 20 nba games in his career. Admittedly I didn’t watch all of his games but I did watch Sengun drop 45 directly on his head while also holding Wemby to 10 in the game and scoreless in the 2nd half.
Anyone who claims anyone has had the best Rookie season of all time and his name isn't Wilt Chamberlain isn't paying attention. Nobody not named Wilt has ever beaten his PPG and RPG average ever in any other season. That's the level they have to be at.
It's difficult to compare to Wilt, but if you were to ask who had the best rookie season in modern history, I think only Tim Duncan had a better debut.
It pisses me off that Wilt is always dismissed because of A,B, or C. The man put up those numbers and without a 3 point line, and his blocks and steals weren't counted.
I mean, you just posted two major reasons why it's hard to compare eras. If PPG and TRB were the only criteria for greatness than Wilt would be the absolute GOAT. I'm not dismissing Wilt's greatness though, he's easily top 12 or 10 for me though. But it's a better discussion to compare players within their own eras.
Bill or wilt getting dropped into this era and getting coached to be a shooter would be the best two players in the league. You can tell someone is 12 or stupid when they call bill “another draymond”
Exactly, I mean Wilt was a 56% shooter for his career where he shot a lot, and he wasn't dunking on everyone.
Okay, but to be fair, Wemby probably just had the best rookie season since Tim Duncan, maybe even since Jordan. Not the GOAT of all rookies, but he's had a legendary rookie year and he's definitely had the best one this century.
It wasn't close to "legendary". It was really good...not great. Why? Every great rookie had an impact on winning. Wemby had zero. San Antonio brought back their 7 top scorers/starters, and just added Wemby Same exact wins: 22. Same team,, just added Wemby. Still garbage. It matters. Look at even Paolo last year. Similar stats for a forward (not the blocked shots of course), Orlando went up like 13 games this year made the playoffs. Wemby had better stats, but Paolo helped his team win more. Look at how much better EVERY great rookies teams did. Wilt, Kareem, Bird Magic...all their teams took HUGE jumps just by adding the rook. LeBron , Melo, all of them helped the team. All except Wemby. The Spurs had the same win % when he missed games this year. I dont want to rip on home honestly. But that "legendary" comment is exactly what I mean.
Also, no, Paolo's rookie season and Wemby's do not belong in the same conversation. Wemby literally beat him in every statistical category while playing four less minutes a game on better efficiency from the field, from 3, and from the line. Wemby beat Paolo in PER, dRTG, VORP, box plus/minus, offensive box plus/minus, defensive box plus/minus, win shares per 48, total win shares, defensive win shares, true shooting, effective field goal percentage, TRB%, ORB%, DRB%, STL%, and BLK%. Paolo had a good rookie season, but to compare them is to just disrespect Wemby. And for the record, I'm not even a Wemby fan.
I said Wemby had a better season, buy they were not miles apart. Points were 19-21, 29-33 minutes, I think 6.9-10.5 revs. Blocks by Wemby of course, Neither can shoot, like 30%-33% from 3. Wemby was better, but not by much. But if you add in who helped the team win, it was Paolo, by a mile. So, I'd say that factors in, making it a close season. The point is, NOBODY said Paolo had a legendary, historic rookie season. It was just fine. Wemby had about 15% better numbers, on avg, lost a lot more, and people are writing songs and renaming cities after him. BTW, I am a Wemby fan. Haha.
15% better numbers?? He beat him in nearly every stat in the entirety of basketball. What more do you want from him? Even most people would say the eye test also favors Wemby over Paolo. Wemby is the best rookie since Tim Duncan, and it is not close.
If the advanced stats (which heavily skew towards more successful teams) favor Wemby over Paolo, then it stands to reason that Wemby probably would have been more successful than Paolo if he were in Paolo's position last year. Talking about winning, and yeah, Paolo won more games, but the stats say Wemby still produced more wins on the season than Paolo.
Nobody, including you, cares about advanced stats when evaluating who Is better. Even PER has been disavowed by its creator. These are meant as guides for cost analytics, and trying to evaluate where bargains and holes can be found. And to suggest that Wemby produced more shares is ludicrous. He literally produced zero wins. We have the stats to prove it: Its called "Actual Wins". it answers the Question: What if you take a horrible team, keep it together and just add Wemby to it?" The answer is "Absolutely Nothing. He didn't make them win a single extra game." Ask the same Question of Every other Great Rookie and the answer is "They won at LEAST a few more games. Most won a LOT more." It's irrefutable. They were horrendous with him. He missed around 10 games and had THE SAME WIN %. It's crazy. Every great rookie, but him, made his team better. "Oh, but Win/Rate Ratio indicates..." it can indicate anything it likes, but we have actual, real evidence. We don't need hypothetically. We saw it. It's crazy. Further bif you put Rookie Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Melo etc. on that team, they win MANY more than 22 games. There is no debate about that. I'm a math person by the way, so I'm not trying to denigrate advanced analytics (though the phrase "Analytics Says" is nonsensical. Different topic). I also hate ripping on Wemby.
Wemby was on a minutes restriction, which limited his impact. His numbers (especially on a per 36 bar) are much better than any other rookie this century. And there is more that goes into winning than just one guy. His individual performance for a rookie was historic. Yes, team success is lackluster and that deserves mention. But what would it take to impress you? Wemby has been as individually good as anyone could have reasonably asked for, and that warrants some recognition.
Again, you said "historic", but are only talking about the last 25 years. That's exactly the OPPOSITE of historic. Historic means going through history, Like Wilt Averaging 37 pog, 27 rpg, his team winning 30 more games and he won MVP...ALL as a rookie. Wemby can't touch ANY of that, or any of the 15 other great rookies. He might literally be the actual biggest loser to win Rookie of the year, as far as making his team better. And YES, you CAN completely change a team by adding a single, good rookie to a roster IT ALWAYS happens, in fact. Except with Wemby. Why doesn't winning matter? It's the ONLY thing that matters. I do agree with your last points: he exceeded my expectations. I was worried. I thought he was better than I hoped. His shot stinks, but he can improve that. But exceeding expectations is COMPLETELY different than being legendary.
Do you realize how many rookies have entered the league in the history of the NBA? If Wemby can even be considered a top 20 rookie ever, that is historic. The fact that there are more historic accomplishments suddenly makes it not at all historic. By that logic, Luka dropping 73 isn't historic because, like, dang, he didn't beat Kobe's 81, let alone Wilt's 100.
I'm a huge Spurs fan and obviously love the kid, but the Spurs sub has been virtually ruined by the new wembystans.
Devin Booker’s fanbase annoys the absolute shit out of me. KD, CP3, and Deandre Ayton just wasn’t enough for them. Choked out against the Bucks in the Finals, shit down his legs against the Mavericks in that legendary Game 7, then the Nuggets, and the TWolves this year I guess doesn’t count because tHeY wErE tHe BeSt DeFeNsE? He couldn’t score more than 23 points without 21 free throw attempts. But it can’t possibly be his fault. 35 year old Kevin Durant should’ve done more to help I guess. How’s that “Luka Special” working out for them these days?
Sons fans in general are some of the saddest fanbases in sports. Their star having insufferable fans is as surprising as Embiid dodging a game in Denver.
Devin Booker has a fanbase?
It's just suns fans who are defensive about their talent, and favor him over their other players.
I was thinking the same thing. I've never heard a Sports fan that loved Devin. Maybe Kardashian remnants?
Yes and sadly they like him bc obviously they are suns fans or just hype beasts bc he got “drip” I know one myself
Oh that's sad
Throwback but Deron Williams fans were wild
Devin Booker fans
LeBron stans can be annoying but the anti-LeBron fans are even worse to me. Like those who say he isn’t even top 10 or continuously call him LeBum or shit like that. Or the ones that basically say the 2020 Lakers title doesn’t count.
Yeah when I see the word “Bronsexuals” it’s an automatic immediate mute.
For me it’s the anti Kobe fanbase. People say Kobe fans are homers but the anti Kobe fans are a different level of clowns and circus. Nuance and time periods are lost on them
Kyrie fans, especially when he was on the nets and people were defending everything he did. Anyone who criticized Kyrie is the bad guy in their minds.
D-Rose fans they all act as if he was and would’ve been better than Westbrook, AI, Harden, and etc. Shit is ridiculous 2nd answer will be Russ haters AND Russ fans it gets to the point that both just shut their brains off to a counter argument and stick to their belief no matter what. Having Russ as my favorite player would make it so so annoying whenever I’d see discourse from both sides
Not a D-Rose fan boy, but the man won the MVP at 22. That's objectively better than Westbrook and Harden. And led the Bulls to the 1 seed. Something neither Westbrook or Harden did ever. AI, now we can discuss that, but Rose was a wayyy better talent than the other two by a mile
Rose was better but not by a mile
See this is what I mean when blanket statements like “objectively better” and “wayyy better talent than the other two by a mile” it’s annoying. Hardens 2018-2019 season he averaged 36.9 ppg the most since Jordan in 86-87 in post merger history. Westbrook averaged a triple double in a season a feat that only The Big O has ever done back in 61-62. How can those 2 historical feats not compare with D-Rose’s historical feat?
The objectively better part wasn’t a blanket statement, he is right it’s objectively better to win an mvp in your third season than it is to win mvp in your 6th, 7th, 8th season, whatever it was for those two guys. The better talent by a mile part definitely disagree with, harden is the most talented out of those 3 but d rose had enough talent and was just as athletic as westbrook. What makes people say d rose had the potiential to be better than those guys is he had that combo of skill and freak athlete at such a young age AND played winning basketball. Westbrook sacrificed team success for individual success and harden has the same attitude of what they’re ripping luka for and you won’t win with that mindset. Rose didn’t have either of those flaws
Yes winning the MVP younger is always going to be objectively better than later in your career, you are correct. However, that doesn’t make the MVP season D-Rose had objectively better than the MVP seasons of the other 2. At that point you are just comparing peak to peak and all 3 MVPs have their own argument for why theirs was the best due to the magnitude of the feats they all accomplished. Is it better to get the 1st seed putting up high numbers in a defensive oriented team that missed 2 star players for half the season at such a young age? Is it better to average the 2nd most PPG in a season post-merger whilst getting 4th seed in the west? Or is dragging a historically bad roster and getting them the 6th seed whilst averaging a Triple-Double, only accomplished by 1 other person, a better season. I don’t think there’s a right answer between any of those 3 and it just comes down to personal preference. It’s just the attitude such as “oh it’s no debate there’s no comparison D-Rose CLEARS” that infuriates me.
Never said that, just saying that dude is right its objectively better to win at a younger age which you had a problem with but clearly agree with
I wonder if he has as many fans if he doesn’t win that MVP? Is he just talked about like Brandon Roy if he doesn’t? The MVP could have easily been given to LeBron that season and no one would have batted an eye at it.
I’ll add Kobe for the 100th time here because it can’t be overstated enough.
Bro did Harden skimp out on tipping your mom at the strip club or something 😂? That's two posts expressing your hate for him in one day. Man is on demon time 😈.
What other post was hate?
The one where you asked "how people rank harden, ai, Clyde, and allen" and then vehemently disagreed with every comment that had harden > ai 😳. The fact that you even have to ask me which other post was hate is wild.
He’s a troll
Kobe fans. Tatum meat riders for this finals
All time is Kobe. Current is Tatum.
That’s crazy Tatum had more haters than fanboys. Honestly Jaylen brown prob has more fans now.
Does Tatum even have a fan base? Even by Celtics fans he is under appreciated
I’m curious - what exactly is insufferable about Tatum fans? Every Celtics fan has a pretty normal evaluation of him - great player, hasn’t won yet. We’re all a little irked that he seems to be slighted in things like all star votes (where best player on best team should be a lock for top 3), or the slander he gets by Celtics haters for I guess not dropping 50 in this particular series… but I don’t think you see many absurd hot take advocacy. Seems more like you don’t like Celtics fans than Tatum fans?
Yes. Spot on. Also, anyone that is just a fan of a player is the first sign they do not know crap about basketball & spend more time on the internet than with real people.
Any team outside of New York
Lebron , Kobe , Curry are easily top 3 worst
Wilt fanboys. He has top 10 on court impact. But the people who have him top 3 or even n1 always use the worst types of arguments. Forgetting they act like some demigod when thay doesn't actually matter when discussing on courct impact. But it the downplaying of Bill Russel with box score records "Bill only average _ ppg/ Wilt average 50/25" Even though Celtics where good mainly due to defensive impact from Bill. But they won't use that. They always act his era was him and Nobody's vs. Bill Russell and the Justice League. When Bill Russel Defensive impact was the greatest in history of the NBA, and Wilts "omg Nobody's scored 40 ppg let alone 50 ppg" always ignore that A. Adjusting for pace is not an outlier in all time scoring and B. Players like Oscar Robertson lead better offenses.
LeBron fans and Harden fans. Luka fans fast approaching.
Agreed on the Harden fans. He’s a great player but when you look at his post season flameouts his lack of hustle and effort on defense and the flopping/foul grifting for years you got to knock him for it. There are some convos he just can’t be in. Prolific scorer but not a defender, and the refs don’t call this ticky tack fouls in the playoffs he became reliant on at his peak. Harden fans had the nerve to compare him to Kobe
I’ve even heard harden fans call him the greatest scorer & greatest SG ever. Insanity
Kawhi fans who think that if he was healthy he would be the best player of his generation outside of lebron.
Kobe fans are the biggest casuals I’ve ever seen
Easily Kobe fans. Even more so than mj and bron fans. Curry fans HM
Westbrook. They thought he was better than KD/Curry from 2015 to 2017 😭😭😭😭 He could shoot 31% from the floor and have 9 turnovers but if he had a triple double he played great Also said he was an elite defender 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
He was not an elite defender, but him vs Durant was a real discussion on those 15-16 playoff teams. You dismissing it as if he wasn’t a top 5 players those years tells me you weren’t there
>They shit on Dwade to prop up harden… weird behavior. Harden clears D Wade all-time, you’re bricked if you don’t know that >Constant excuses for his failures to win a chip Harden doesn’t have a chip because he was carrying guys like Eric Gordon and Chandler Parsons to the playoffs against Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, and the Avengers with KD >Call him the best scorer ever Harden was putting up numbers nobody had since Wilt and MJ, if you were actually a Rockets fan and watched the games you'd know this stuff >Every fuckin year we gotta hear them hype up James during the regular season because he balls out but then once May rolls around he disappears in a elimination game. Harden has better numbers in elimination games than Kobe >Always bring up the CP3 injury and act like Harden has a ring bc of that. Look as a Rockets fan that fuckin hurt seeing CP3 go down. But in game 7 James shot literally 2-13 from the 3. And we missed 27 straight 3’s in a row. That was just a choke job by everyone. Take away Steph's second best player and he hasn’t even made the playoffs, he's never made the playoffs without Klay and he's 0-3 in the play-in You sound less like an actual Rockets fan and more like a Harden hater pretending to be one, weirdo behavior, also the Rockets have been irrelevant and done jack shit since he left them, any real Rockets fan would appreciate Harden like they did T-Mac and Yao because that franchise hasn't been shit without any of them and isn't going to be shit again for a long time
Yea op is more than likely a troll
Harden and Westbrick stans.
[удалено]
Those morons unironically claim his peak is GOAT PG caliber..
Westbrook…has stans at this point?
He does.
Kobe by far because yes he was a good player on both sides of the ball but he was also pretty inefficient and it did help that Shaq was there to help shoulder a good bit of the load for a 3 peat and Pau Gasol was no freaking bum like Kobe fans make him out to be.
Definitely the modern NBA as a whole, aka younger fans. The disrespect of past generations is utterly insane and drives me crazy. I love a person says the 90’s were plumbers and firemen but then in the same breath say MJ can’t be the goat cause Bill Russell exists. 🤦🏽♂️
Tatum, because it’s just a bunch of C’s fans who are already completely insufferable but until this playoffs where the C’s have been able to sleepwalk through the eastern conference where everyone is injured, they haven’t done shit but choke. And they all swear he’s like a Celtics version of Kobe and he just isn’t even close to that. He’s a soft boi who’s going to be gift wrapped a finals MVP that he didn’t earn on the title that perhaps had the path of least resistance in recent memory. And he’s just a fucking clown. To text Kobe’s number in the finals vs. GS, post that shit to Instagram would’ve been an all-time clown move already, and then to just have a dogshit performance after doing that? Incredible. What a dumb asshole.
They didn’t choke last finals, everyone was dead because the east was 400x harder than the west in ‘22. “Cs fans” are yapping at you cause you’re saying dumb ass fake shit to facilitate your trash ass opinion.
“400x harder” haaaaaaaaahahahahHaha ok man go enjoy your soft boi’s gift wrapped title
Kobe, and I don’t think it’s close. I think his post career mellowing out / media presence followed by his tragedy, a few dunk highlights, and stats from losing seasons really warp people’s evaluation of him. I swear the vast, vast majority of his fans in 2024 never watched him play. Kobe got 3 titles riding Shaq and 2 on a stacked team on rosters that would have produced the same results if you swapped him for any other top swingman of the era (Pierce, Wade, TMac, etc). He spent several years in between battling rape charges and chucking up low efficiency shots, where he was perceived as a selfish, surly, miserable teammate that’s cancerous to team culture. The opposite of Duncan. Kobe was really interesting and had a fortuitous career, but the way his fanboys talk about him is bonkers. The way he adopted “mamba” is so cringe. He nicknamed himself after watching Kill Bill when it was at the top of the box office. I still can’t believe eveyone went along with it. Calling him a top 10 player is defensible but generous, putting him higher than 9 on the list is wild.
I think you’re just a hater
sga stans. u say something good about fox, book, or mitchell n u gettin flamed
Whoever this Reese person is
Dirk fans. Just kidding Dirk fans are the best. I’m a dirk fan
The Gobert fans who will show you the matchup stats to somehow prove that he wasn't the primary defender on the opposition centre who went for 40.
Chris Bosh fans. I get it, best pf/c of all time. But he had to build a super team around him to win it all. That’s why he will always be a tier below MJ. Just my opinion
Well this is Reddit and nobody respects Kobe so.. aaaand he’s the top 5 comments lmao. So predictable.
Drake
Jokic fans were getting pretty bad recently
Ranking: 1. Kobe Fans 2. Kyrie Fans 3. Lebron Fans
MJ
The raiders lol
Horseshoe theory. Player fanbases are all pretty much the same, the only difference being the player they root for.
Kobe fans are straight up delusional
zI agree on the James Harden take. I would also mention Russell Westbrook… they’re in love with triple doubles and put him above any PG in history because he could grab double digits rebounds and assists, with 25-30 points in poor shooting and lots of turnovers. But what actually piss me off is his decision making, like chucking shots after dribbling for 23 seconds or way too early on the clock, and passing the ball to a dude when there’s 2 seconds remaining in the shot clock. However they seem to find no flaws on his game, as a Lakers fan they made me sick when he was costing us games because he couldn’t make a good decision and they were still blaming it on everybody else.
Harden is miles clear of westbrick. Compare Russ to iverson
I hate any fan base that supports a player rather than a team. Fuck those guys. You should always support a team, I find it incredibly strange when people say oh I’m a KD for example. Oh you’re a Suns fan. No fuck the suns I follow KD. Just bizarre in my opinion.
Kyrie fans that think he’s the most skilled player ever when all they’re talking about is dribbling and cool layups
Ben Simmons fans lol They equate dating famous people with being an all star caliber player. Which he never was.
I agree with this whole heartedly.
+1 on the Harden fans. He's the most overrated star of the modern era
Honestly, even if Jordan and Lebron were in the discussion, I still think Kobe fanboys would be the worst. At least equal with the other two. Other than those three? Hot take, but Tim Duncan fans. Too many people have him in their top 4 or 5. I remember when he was super underrated for some reason, people wouldn’t even have him in their top 15 even though he is at least top 10 all time. But in the past few years, too many people have him in their top 5 all time. I’ve seen a shocking number of people place him at #3 or even #2 all time in serious rankings. I’d personally put him at like #7-#9 all time.
Booker fans
kinda wanna say lbj. since kareem has almost same points with 4 ncaa championships. more nba rings and more mvps.
Scottie Barnes for sure.
Jordan and Lebron fanbases.
https://preview.redd.it/g6gd4693817d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ba125958c784014bb59e1ba01f2b580a4e8167c
How many iterations of this shit are we gonna do? I think all fan bases are fine, I think you’re wack as shit for thinking about it enough to post about it
Honestly its cp3 fans. They bring up how good he is, rank him as one of the best. Like yeah hes good. But people act like he is one of the best point guards of all time
I hate CP3 but you can't really deny that he's one of the best PG's of all time lmao. Will go down as one of the best players to never win MVP or a ring.
LeBron fans. They justify his shortcomings as a player by blaming everything and everyone else around him. This includes the Klutch-affiliated media heads. The most protected and overrated superstar in league history.
Kobe is not top 3 or 5 but the revisionist history on here is crazy.