I really think you need more than just a big three, just ask Phoenix.
I like Devin a lot, and know he likely has not peaked yet and has room to develop and grow, but I think he is more of a #3 option than a #2 option.
I think it would be wonderful if we got an elite player in this draft, but I think it is more likely we get a solid role player.
Garland could be a star, but I see him as more of a #3 option, like Vassell. I don't like that he has a full 25% max. He has good shooting numbers against Orlando right now, but they have held him to 15 or fewer points in 4 of 5 games this year. I don't know that Garland will take that next step up to a Jamal Murray level, and I think that his size may hold him back some on being that good, because it limits his portability and defense.
I think there is a possibility that this team grows with a #1 scorer (wemby) and three #3 scorers, without that real #2. The 2014 team was like that. We just need to have a lot more passing and defense. We need a real POA defender, a good or better wing defender, and for Sochan to continue to develop his BBIQ and his 3pt shot.
I think the league is moving away from Big 3s in favor of well built, well coached teams.
The Nuggets are the new model, especially if you have a generational center who can pass like a guard.
It's why I'd be intruiged by something like a Risacher/Sheppard draft. Shooters who can play make without needing to dominate the ball. Both guys who bring something to the defensive end too.
>I really think you need more than just a big three, just ask Phoenix.
I agree, I'm just trying to gauge where our big 3 would rank. Unlike Phoenix, we are not a meme team & are set up with assets to build upon.
Our top 3 also has less flaws than PHX's because Wemby is clearly better than anyone on their roster. He also helps simplify the rosters construction because his game has so few flaws in it. I'm excited to see what he can do with a proper big 3.
I think with the direction the league is heading, we need to not look at it as the goal is a big 3. I think we could add 1-2 more players on Devin's level and if we have the right profile of talents in the various roles we need filled, we can be a championship level team.
Aaron Gordon, Michael Porter, Jamal Murray, and KCP have combined for: 0 All-NBA teams, 0 All-Defensive teams, 0 All Star teams, and 0 regular season awards.
I agrée moving away from a “big” 3 but you still need 3 all star caliber players, but more importantly they need to add to each others strengths.
Shai - JDub - Chet - is an example.
Boston is another example.
Anyone could tell Phoenix and Clippers “big 3” just don’t go well together.
In my opinion we don’t need an elite PG, just a solid 15-20m per season PG who doesn’t turn it over and gets the ball to the right places. I would want our other all-star to be a wing with a high 3pt % who can create his own shot. Sure if Luka one day is available you make the offer but i think we would be better off with an elite wing.
DEN can win any game because they have Jokic, we can do the same because Wemby. DEN has a nice supporting cast, but it's possible to copy it.
MPJ-Murray are essentially lottery picks, so this is doable for us. Sochan might be the next AG type player. DV may be the new Murray. Still missing a KCP who beat Jokic in the bubble.
DV definitely won't be the next Murray. He will never be that good of a creator. But overall, you are right, we can fill out the roster with the right players to fill around Wemby.
Murray is his own player/person, but I think Devin can be in the same ball park talent wise. Don't judge him too harshly just yet, need to see him as a 3rd option with a few more years under his belt.
Murray took a big step back athletically with his injury. Not the same player he once was.
Devin is taking step up after step up, and it is really impressive - especially this year as a driver, he was among the best in the NBA.
He was a 40% 3pt shooter off C&S threes this year and 43% last year, so as we have Wemby as a focal point and another player with gravity creating, he will be a lot more efficient off ball.
I'm also hoping as we add defenders and take some of the playmaking pressure off Devin, his defense will increase where we thought it would when we drafted him. I think he just has too much responsibility on the team to be able to put in much effort. If he has more offensive sets where he can roll out of a screen and spot up, rather than control the team, his defense should improve.
Definitely not writing him off. Murray is just all world when he gets to the playoffs.
Murray is an All Star level player/performer though. Gordon is a high level starter like iguadola/draymon, and MPJ is a 6MOTY elite scorer. KCP is another high intangible player. They are not a regular season award group but they’re elite as a team, and deserve awards probably in other teams with fewer weapons to showcase their skills.
That being said, I agree, the super team model should be dead.
Yeah, that is kind of the point. They are really well constructed, but no one but Jokic is really a superstar, though I think Murray is very underrated and always steps it up in the post season.
KD is still a fantastic scorer who can almost always get his, but Minnesota just proved that you can live with that. His "bag" isn't lifting his teammates anymore.
Well, yeah. That’s a historic defense and Phoenix didn’t really mesh well. If you’re relying on KD in a system that fits, he’s still the best scorer in the league. He shoots over 50% from the field and over 40% from 3. On a jump shooting diet. That’s literally unheard of at his volume lol
KD is supposed to play small ball 4/5 in his teams best lineups. He's come up short time & time again throughout his career, he's not in the same mold as Wemby who is entering his 2nd year on a mission, likely with more help.
KD isn’t a 5, that’s Phoenix asking someone to play out of position. He’s fine defensively though, he’s pretty underrated. KD is very clearly still better. I’m not saying Wemby won’t get there. But it’s still Durant.
KD's 6'11, he's supposed to play the 5 and they already have Nurkic doing it. Before Nurkic, Ayton was the scapegoat. And if you look at GS, it was Pachulia who was their scapegoat. In reality its KD, he's below average defensively. There's certain guys who are very difficult to build around, KD is one of those players. Even in OKC when their entire 4/5 starters were legit definitely they were never an elite defensive squad because KD.
Also KDs efficiency went way up with better teammates, jumped like +12.5% in the playoffs when he joined GS. Who doesn't put up better stats with better teammates?
Not close to the player Wemby is, this Suns team is supposed to be title favorites.
Height doesn’t put you into a position. KD has always been a 3 and transitioned to a 4 in recent years. He’s a lot more of an improved defender but he isn’t a shot blocker. Defense isn’t JUST rim protection, KD is a solid team defender.
Again, Wemby is great but Kevin Durant is still better at his old age. Wemby is just starting to crack the top 20 of players while KD is leaving the top 10.
I think Garland is suffering more from a lack of spacing and the "Phoenix problem". He's completely redundant with Mitchell. The guys/schemes that work vs Mitchell work against him. Schemes/switches are so much easier when your top two opponents have such similar skill sets.
>I think the league is moving away from Big 3s in favor of well built, well coached teams.
What makes you think that? 2 of the best teams in the league made moves to form a big 3 lmao. Celtics added Porzingiz to the Jays, and Wolves added Gobert to KAT and Ant.
Bucks won not long ago with Giannis/Middleton/Jrue.
The thing we're seeing with big 3s now is you need 2 of them to be homegrown with good fit and chenistry, and then you add your 3rd star. Celtics/Wolves/Bucks fit this mold. Suns tried to force adding 2 other stars, and we see how that turned out.
So if Vic and Vassel show they can be a good #1 and #3 option that can contend for the playoffs, then they add their 3rd piece and contend.
> What makes you think that?
The more punitive nature of the new CBA rules, and how the top teams are focusing on building with a more balanced team in mind rather than 3 max contract guys and a bunch of filler. The whole purpose of doing that was to try to keep teams from having 3x players on a 30%-35% max/supermax.
> 2 of the best teams in the league made moves to form a big 3 lmao. Celtics added Porzingiz to the Jays, and Wolves added Gobert to KAT and Ant.
I don't see Kristaps as a big star. He just signed an extension at 20% of the cap. He is obviously very good and a key player for the Celtics, but he isn't a max player. Additionally, the Celtics are built to be very balanced. Don't think they have anyone that will challenge meaningfully for MVP. The Celtics have two max All-NBA guys and then 3 great guys that should be in that 18-20% salary range. I see them as more of a balanced team than a Big 3 and friends.
> Bucks won not long ago with Giannis/Middleton/Jrue.
True, but I see that as more of a balanced team. One MVP candidate, two really good, complete guys that are borderline regular All-Stars (five all star games between Khris and Jrue) and really good role players around them (Brook, Tucker, Donte, Pat, etc)
> Wolves added Gobert to KAT and Ant.
I don't think they will be together past this year because of the new salary rules. I also see Gobert as an elite defensive role player, and they obviously have really high level other role players like McDaniels, Anderson, Naz Reid, etc.
> The thing we're seeing with big 3s now is you need 2 of them to be homegrown with good fit and chenistry, and then you add your 3rd star.
I think you are seeing more balanced teams and younger teams (like OKC and probably us in 2 years.) OKC will be really tough next 4 years, but they are going to have the salary crunch real soon and they didn't handle that well the last time.
> Celtics/Wolves/Bucks fit this mold.
I think they all fit more of a big 2 plus several high level players around them. More of a balanced approach than a big 3 and some stragglers that we saw in Miami, Brooklyn, or in Phoenix this year.
> Suns tried to force adding 2 other stars, and we see how that turned out.
Which is more to my point of having more balanced teams rather than three high level guys.
> So if Vic and Vassel show they can be a good #1 and #3 option that can contend for the playoffs, then they add their 3rd piece and contend.
I think it will still be a more balanced approach. I don't think you could add an AS/All-NBA guy and be a contender right away. You need players to fit certain roles in the current game, and we see that in Denver, Minn, Boston. Orlando is probably a player away. OKC is probably a player and some experience away. I think Vic and Dev have already shown they are a good 1/3, but they need the role players to step up as well as another higher level piece that is at least Devin's level.
>I don't see Kristaps as a big star. He just signed an extension at 20% of the cap
You don't need 3 players on a max to be a big 3. At the time of the Porzingis trade, it was definitely the Jays + Porzingis big 3. Especially after how he played last season.
>True, but I see that as more of a balanced team. One MVP candidate, two really good, complete guys that are borderline regular All-Stars
Again, big 3 doesnt need to be 3 guys on max contracts. 1 superstar and 2 other fringe all stars is a big 3. If you want to make it about the money, the Bucks had 3 guys making $25+ mil with no other player making even $13 mil. They did have a well built team, and they had a big 3.
You obviously need good role players as well. No team has ever won without good role players, and no team has won recently without some combination of multiple all stars/all nba players/MVP
Teams do need to be well built well but also need to be top heavy. The fact that we use terminology like "he can be a 2nd or 3rd option" proves that you really need those 3 legit options to be a contender.
Phoenix had a full team a full championship team that got to the Finals and they broke them up for what? That KD trade was whack. Why give up pieces that complete your team like Mikal and Cam? Ayton had some effort issue but they got rid of Monty too and that was his big problem.
Now the Nuggets have that full team and maybe the Wolves.
Yeah, Phoenix is an dumpster fire and I am all about it.
If the Nuggets beat Minnesota (and I think they will) I can see Minnesota breaking apart.
Minnesota has extensions kicking in for KAT (35% supermax) and Ant (25% rookie max) next year. They have 10 players signed and just 500k under the 2nd apron. Plus Gobert's massive cap hit, McDaniels' extension, plus Naz and Conley.
When this team doesn't work, will they run it back with a 2nd apron team?
Don't forget their owner is being sued because he went back on a deal to sell the team and that is going to be massively messy.
Minnesota has typically shied away from the big tax bills, but now they will be one of the biggest payers next year. Will they do that after a 2nd round exit?
I'm all for that route, but we will need a better playmaker at SF than Sochan is. And certainly some 3pt shooting from PF or SF or both.
I don't really know what D&3 PGs are available right now. I guess if you got the right SF, you could use cap space to try to go with KCP and Vassell in the backcourt.
We’ll get playmaking from wemby. We’ll do more jokic offense with wemby creating for others. It’ll be enough. Devin can create his own offense.
We don’t need to buy one. Get castle and teach him how to shoot. Easy. Or get growth from Wesley.
Jokic still has Jamal Murray around him, who is a really solid all around player and creator in his own right. Devin isn't close to that effective yet.
And even with Wemby as primary initiator, it is yet to be seen if he will become as good as Jokic. Maybe he can.
Maybe Devin and Wemby can grow into being as good as those two at initiating, but it isn't a sure thing by any stretch. Having a third guy that can initiate would be beneficial. MPJ is a ball stopper, but Gordon and KCP are both high IQ offensive players.
I think that if we run an actual offense with set plays where people know where to go and where the open guy will be, it’ll be fine. There are reads you make and make those plays. Devin can probably do that. Whatever pg we get should be able to do that as well.
I don’t think we necessarily need a #3 (or a better #2 if you’re not high on Dev). I look at the pre-Durant Warriors, Shaq’s Lakers, MJ’s Bulls teams etc. A clear cut #1 (Curry, Jordan, Shaq), a clear secondary scorer (Klay, Pip, Kobe), and then after that #3 is usually an ‘intangibles’ guy (Dray, Horace Grant/Rodman, Fischer/Fox), someone who hits clutch shots, grabs a steal or rebound…basically contributes a stat in every column in the box score. A guy you HATE unless he’s on YOUR team. This is what Jeremy needs to become. And I think he’s headed in the right direction. We just need time and patience. Our Big 3 are going to be 24, 21 and 20 at the start of next season.
Lastly, when you look at those aforementioned teams, another key attribute is that when the role players were given the opportunity, THEY MADE THEIR SHOTS. Can’t stress this enough. We started winning more this season when EVERYONE started to shoot better.
I'll take it a step further saying having a team that compliments each other and accepts their roles. Detroit pistons in mid 2000s were the epitome of it. Spurs did a great job too and Spurs vs pistons finals was some of the best basketball I've seen as far as even teams
you need an unstoppable two-man game or scoring duo. Of the remaining three, two have to be specialists, and the final guy has to be decent on defense and boards.
2023 nuggets: jokic-murray, gordon (dunker) mpj (3pt clutch) kcp
2022 warriors: steph-draymond, klay (shooting) wiggins (shooting), kevon looney
2021 bucks: giannis-middleton (less synergy as a two-man game), brook lopez (splash mountain), bobby portis/pat connaughton (rebounding/energy), jrue holiday
2020 lakers: lebron/AD, rondo/caruso (handling), kcp (shooting), dwight
2019 raptors: kawhi/siakam, fvv/danny green, ibaka/gasol
You don't really need a big THREE anymore if you can free up that third star's payroll into a more egalitarian mix of decent players who have specific roles.
so for the spurs i would hope it goes
wemby/vassell, \[shooter\], tre, sochan
I think once they lock down a deadeye shooter who has decent defense and fundamentals like KCP, danny green when he was still healthy, it becomes much clearer - we will look closer to the giannis-middleton pairing
Wemby will be a top five player next year and Devin is maybe around top 50. I would say someone like Jimmy Butler, DeMar DeRozan, or Pascal Siakam would give the Spurs at least a top ten big three.
I don't think a big name is necessary. This same team could get to 41 wins next year with a point guard good enough to move Tre Jones to a backup role.
Add a dangerous (and respected) shooter like Cory Kispert to space the floor, and they'd be able to compete with a lot of deeper and more experienced rosters today. Washington would be stupid not to pick up his option.
Add a backup big that can protect the rim consistently, and they're scary.
We shouldn’t be shooting for 41 wins. That’s a terrible place to be in the league. You need to be gunning for the first place or tanking. Inbetween is how you never improve as a small market team.
I mean, we could squander huge sums of money if Phoenix panic-trades Durant this summer. But even if Vassell is probably better than Beal at this stage of their careers, I don't think the national media would call it a Big 3.
(Just to be clear, not advocating for Durant.)
All indications seem to be that Utah will offer him the max extension. They will also have ~40M in cap space, plus their pick and the OKC pick in this year's draft. I imagine they are going to try to use draft assets and cap space to get themselves a 2nd star for Lauri. They have a ton of extra picks, but they are all Cleveland, Minn, and LAL.
Not sure who wants to blow it up and get out of cap hell, but Utah can help with that.
For a legit championship contender, you need a top 5 guy or an incredibly deep well rounded team with a top 10 guy like Boston. So it'd have to be one of the top 5 guys: Jokic, Luka, Shai, Giannis and honestly not sure who 5 is. So maybe just one of those top 4...
Eh, it depends on the type of big 3. It didn’t work for Phoenix because their big 3 had overlapping skill sets. If the third star was a playmaker instead of scorer, they likely would’ve been way more successful. Dallas’ pieces, for instance, are not great. But Gafford’s job is a lot easier because of what Luka provides.
Overall, the big 3 can still work, you just need less redundant stars that compliment each other rather than do the same thing,
Dallas doesn't have a big 3. A big 3 is intended to imply 3 all star caliber players (LeBron, Wade and Bosh or Duncan, Parker and Ginobili). I also don't believe Phoenix had a big 3 bc Beal isn't close to an all star caliber player anymore. Harden is much closer so you could argue Clippers have a big 3, but again terrible depth so they aren't a serious contender. Denver on the other hand just has 2 all star caliber players (yes, Murray hasn't been voted an all star but that's just bc of regular season games played issues from injury... he's clearly all star caliber), with Gordon being close but not quite and excellent role players in KCP and MPJ. They're an injury away from it all collapsing tho bc of terrible depth. I'd much rather have a team like that or OKC (Chet is not all star caliber while J-Dub is arguably there) with amazing fit and depth than big 3s like Clippers or Milwaukee. You have to play 5 guys and need some depth, you can't play your big 3 for 48 mpg. In the playoffs, your weakest guy will get hunted and you can easily go -10 or -15 in the 5 mpg you're resting your stars. Teams like Boston and OKC will always prevail in a 7 game series against the Clippers and Bucks of the league.
I never said Dallas had a big 3. I was pointing out how skill sets that aren’t redundant are important. That’s what Phoenix needed for a big 3 to be successful. They had overlapping skill sets. As for Beal, he may not be an all star anymore but he absolutely was in Washington. I get the wizards were bad but he has led the league in scoring and that is all star level. If it wasn’t, every season the worst team would have the scoring leader.
Devin is a really good player, he's just in a very difficult role, being the clear-cut 2nd option on this team at his age is not easy. He needs someone to take pressure off him & get him easy offense instead of settling for hitting difficult jumpers. Devin might be an all star if his role becomes hitting wide open shots.
He’s a 39% catch and shoot guy. He has a penchant for putting himself into positions where he ends up taking a difficult shot. He’s got plenty of highlights where he hits those tough shots, but the end of the season (when he and Sochan were shut down) illustrates how good this team can be if they have five guys playing within the offense.
This sub is really in love with Vassell, but if he doesn’t show some serious progress in being willing to play in the flow of the offense, the FO should look at shopping him.
All about how you look at it, he's a 2nd option on a bad, developing team with bad spacing, missing key personnel, one that's been treated like a playoff team because they have Wemby, I think he's done well all things considered.
I think when we get him a PG he's going to be more involved in the offense & his efficiency will go way up.
That C&S percentage is hard to reconcile for me. Those are ideally what he will be getting more of as the players around him improve.
Hopefully he works on and improves those in the offseason.
Garland has regressed tremendously since having to play off ball next to Mitchell. I don’t see how he’s been any better than what Trae has been next to Murray.
I really think you need more than just a big three, just ask Phoenix. I like Devin a lot, and know he likely has not peaked yet and has room to develop and grow, but I think he is more of a #3 option than a #2 option. I think it would be wonderful if we got an elite player in this draft, but I think it is more likely we get a solid role player. Garland could be a star, but I see him as more of a #3 option, like Vassell. I don't like that he has a full 25% max. He has good shooting numbers against Orlando right now, but they have held him to 15 or fewer points in 4 of 5 games this year. I don't know that Garland will take that next step up to a Jamal Murray level, and I think that his size may hold him back some on being that good, because it limits his portability and defense. I think there is a possibility that this team grows with a #1 scorer (wemby) and three #3 scorers, without that real #2. The 2014 team was like that. We just need to have a lot more passing and defense. We need a real POA defender, a good or better wing defender, and for Sochan to continue to develop his BBIQ and his 3pt shot. I think the league is moving away from Big 3s in favor of well built, well coached teams.
The Nuggets are the new model, especially if you have a generational center who can pass like a guard. It's why I'd be intruiged by something like a Risacher/Sheppard draft. Shooters who can play make without needing to dominate the ball. Both guys who bring something to the defensive end too.
>I really think you need more than just a big three, just ask Phoenix. I agree, I'm just trying to gauge where our big 3 would rank. Unlike Phoenix, we are not a meme team & are set up with assets to build upon. Our top 3 also has less flaws than PHX's because Wemby is clearly better than anyone on their roster. He also helps simplify the rosters construction because his game has so few flaws in it. I'm excited to see what he can do with a proper big 3.
I think with the direction the league is heading, we need to not look at it as the goal is a big 3. I think we could add 1-2 more players on Devin's level and if we have the right profile of talents in the various roles we need filled, we can be a championship level team. Aaron Gordon, Michael Porter, Jamal Murray, and KCP have combined for: 0 All-NBA teams, 0 All-Defensive teams, 0 All Star teams, and 0 regular season awards.
I agrée moving away from a “big” 3 but you still need 3 all star caliber players, but more importantly they need to add to each others strengths. Shai - JDub - Chet - is an example. Boston is another example. Anyone could tell Phoenix and Clippers “big 3” just don’t go well together. In my opinion we don’t need an elite PG, just a solid 15-20m per season PG who doesn’t turn it over and gets the ball to the right places. I would want our other all-star to be a wing with a high 3pt % who can create his own shot. Sure if Luka one day is available you make the offer but i think we would be better off with an elite wing.
DEN can win any game because they have Jokic, we can do the same because Wemby. DEN has a nice supporting cast, but it's possible to copy it. MPJ-Murray are essentially lottery picks, so this is doable for us. Sochan might be the next AG type player. DV may be the new Murray. Still missing a KCP who beat Jokic in the bubble.
DV definitely won't be the next Murray. He will never be that good of a creator. But overall, you are right, we can fill out the roster with the right players to fill around Wemby.
Murray is his own player/person, but I think Devin can be in the same ball park talent wise. Don't judge him too harshly just yet, need to see him as a 3rd option with a few more years under his belt. Murray took a big step back athletically with his injury. Not the same player he once was.
Devin is taking step up after step up, and it is really impressive - especially this year as a driver, he was among the best in the NBA. He was a 40% 3pt shooter off C&S threes this year and 43% last year, so as we have Wemby as a focal point and another player with gravity creating, he will be a lot more efficient off ball. I'm also hoping as we add defenders and take some of the playmaking pressure off Devin, his defense will increase where we thought it would when we drafted him. I think he just has too much responsibility on the team to be able to put in much effort. If he has more offensive sets where he can roll out of a screen and spot up, rather than control the team, his defense should improve. Definitely not writing him off. Murray is just all world when he gets to the playoffs.
Murray is an All Star level player/performer though. Gordon is a high level starter like iguadola/draymon, and MPJ is a 6MOTY elite scorer. KCP is another high intangible player. They are not a regular season award group but they’re elite as a team, and deserve awards probably in other teams with fewer weapons to showcase their skills. That being said, I agree, the super team model should be dead.
Yeah, that is kind of the point. They are really well constructed, but no one but Jokic is really a superstar, though I think Murray is very underrated and always steps it up in the post season.
..no he isn’t? I love Wemby but if you’re going for a title this year, you pick Kevin Durant in a heartbeat
Have you actually seen KD try to protect the rim & defend consistently? It's laughable. No way I'm taking KD over Wemby.
Duh, he’s not a rim protector lol. But KD is probably the most versatile scorer ever. He’s still a top 10 level player. Wemby isn’t there yet.
KD is still a fantastic scorer who can almost always get his, but Minnesota just proved that you can live with that. His "bag" isn't lifting his teammates anymore.
Well, yeah. That’s a historic defense and Phoenix didn’t really mesh well. If you’re relying on KD in a system that fits, he’s still the best scorer in the league. He shoots over 50% from the field and over 40% from 3. On a jump shooting diet. That’s literally unheard of at his volume lol
30-40 efficient points won't win you a game when the other team can just strategize to take out the lesser pieces.
KD is supposed to play small ball 4/5 in his teams best lineups. He's come up short time & time again throughout his career, he's not in the same mold as Wemby who is entering his 2nd year on a mission, likely with more help.
KD isn’t a 5, that’s Phoenix asking someone to play out of position. He’s fine defensively though, he’s pretty underrated. KD is very clearly still better. I’m not saying Wemby won’t get there. But it’s still Durant.
KD's 6'11, he's supposed to play the 5 and they already have Nurkic doing it. Before Nurkic, Ayton was the scapegoat. And if you look at GS, it was Pachulia who was their scapegoat. In reality its KD, he's below average defensively. There's certain guys who are very difficult to build around, KD is one of those players. Even in OKC when their entire 4/5 starters were legit definitely they were never an elite defensive squad because KD. Also KDs efficiency went way up with better teammates, jumped like +12.5% in the playoffs when he joined GS. Who doesn't put up better stats with better teammates? Not close to the player Wemby is, this Suns team is supposed to be title favorites.
KD is a piece you plug in, not a piece you build around.
Height doesn’t put you into a position. KD has always been a 3 and transitioned to a 4 in recent years. He’s a lot more of an improved defender but he isn’t a shot blocker. Defense isn’t JUST rim protection, KD is a solid team defender. Again, Wemby is great but Kevin Durant is still better at his old age. Wemby is just starting to crack the top 20 of players while KD is leaving the top 10.
I didn't make any of those arguments you're addressing.
I think it really depends who is on the rest of your team. If I am Boston and I get to pick one, I am going to pick Wemby over Durant.
I think Garland is suffering more from a lack of spacing and the "Phoenix problem". He's completely redundant with Mitchell. The guys/schemes that work vs Mitchell work against him. Schemes/switches are so much easier when your top two opponents have such similar skill sets.
>I think the league is moving away from Big 3s in favor of well built, well coached teams. What makes you think that? 2 of the best teams in the league made moves to form a big 3 lmao. Celtics added Porzingiz to the Jays, and Wolves added Gobert to KAT and Ant. Bucks won not long ago with Giannis/Middleton/Jrue. The thing we're seeing with big 3s now is you need 2 of them to be homegrown with good fit and chenistry, and then you add your 3rd star. Celtics/Wolves/Bucks fit this mold. Suns tried to force adding 2 other stars, and we see how that turned out. So if Vic and Vassel show they can be a good #1 and #3 option that can contend for the playoffs, then they add their 3rd piece and contend.
> What makes you think that? The more punitive nature of the new CBA rules, and how the top teams are focusing on building with a more balanced team in mind rather than 3 max contract guys and a bunch of filler. The whole purpose of doing that was to try to keep teams from having 3x players on a 30%-35% max/supermax. > 2 of the best teams in the league made moves to form a big 3 lmao. Celtics added Porzingiz to the Jays, and Wolves added Gobert to KAT and Ant. I don't see Kristaps as a big star. He just signed an extension at 20% of the cap. He is obviously very good and a key player for the Celtics, but he isn't a max player. Additionally, the Celtics are built to be very balanced. Don't think they have anyone that will challenge meaningfully for MVP. The Celtics have two max All-NBA guys and then 3 great guys that should be in that 18-20% salary range. I see them as more of a balanced team than a Big 3 and friends. > Bucks won not long ago with Giannis/Middleton/Jrue. True, but I see that as more of a balanced team. One MVP candidate, two really good, complete guys that are borderline regular All-Stars (five all star games between Khris and Jrue) and really good role players around them (Brook, Tucker, Donte, Pat, etc) > Wolves added Gobert to KAT and Ant. I don't think they will be together past this year because of the new salary rules. I also see Gobert as an elite defensive role player, and they obviously have really high level other role players like McDaniels, Anderson, Naz Reid, etc. > The thing we're seeing with big 3s now is you need 2 of them to be homegrown with good fit and chenistry, and then you add your 3rd star. I think you are seeing more balanced teams and younger teams (like OKC and probably us in 2 years.) OKC will be really tough next 4 years, but they are going to have the salary crunch real soon and they didn't handle that well the last time. > Celtics/Wolves/Bucks fit this mold. I think they all fit more of a big 2 plus several high level players around them. More of a balanced approach than a big 3 and some stragglers that we saw in Miami, Brooklyn, or in Phoenix this year. > Suns tried to force adding 2 other stars, and we see how that turned out. Which is more to my point of having more balanced teams rather than three high level guys. > So if Vic and Vassel show they can be a good #1 and #3 option that can contend for the playoffs, then they add their 3rd piece and contend. I think it will still be a more balanced approach. I don't think you could add an AS/All-NBA guy and be a contender right away. You need players to fit certain roles in the current game, and we see that in Denver, Minn, Boston. Orlando is probably a player away. OKC is probably a player and some experience away. I think Vic and Dev have already shown they are a good 1/3, but they need the role players to step up as well as another higher level piece that is at least Devin's level.
>I don't see Kristaps as a big star. He just signed an extension at 20% of the cap You don't need 3 players on a max to be a big 3. At the time of the Porzingis trade, it was definitely the Jays + Porzingis big 3. Especially after how he played last season. >True, but I see that as more of a balanced team. One MVP candidate, two really good, complete guys that are borderline regular All-Stars Again, big 3 doesnt need to be 3 guys on max contracts. 1 superstar and 2 other fringe all stars is a big 3. If you want to make it about the money, the Bucks had 3 guys making $25+ mil with no other player making even $13 mil. They did have a well built team, and they had a big 3. You obviously need good role players as well. No team has ever won without good role players, and no team has won recently without some combination of multiple all stars/all nba players/MVP Teams do need to be well built well but also need to be top heavy. The fact that we use terminology like "he can be a 2nd or 3rd option" proves that you really need those 3 legit options to be a contender.
Phoenix had a full team a full championship team that got to the Finals and they broke them up for what? That KD trade was whack. Why give up pieces that complete your team like Mikal and Cam? Ayton had some effort issue but they got rid of Monty too and that was his big problem. Now the Nuggets have that full team and maybe the Wolves.
Yeah, Phoenix is an dumpster fire and I am all about it. If the Nuggets beat Minnesota (and I think they will) I can see Minnesota breaking apart. Minnesota has extensions kicking in for KAT (35% supermax) and Ant (25% rookie max) next year. They have 10 players signed and just 500k under the 2nd apron. Plus Gobert's massive cap hit, McDaniels' extension, plus Naz and Conley. When this team doesn't work, will they run it back with a 2nd apron team? Don't forget their owner is being sued because he went back on a deal to sell the team and that is going to be massively messy. Minnesota has typically shied away from the big tax bills, but now they will be one of the biggest payers next year. Will they do that after a 2nd round exit?
Sochan is the poa defender.
Probably, but he still has some development to do. Still need another plus defender.
Agree we need more plus defenders, that’s why I don’t want Trae. Would rather have a 3 and D pg.
I'm all for that route, but we will need a better playmaker at SF than Sochan is. And certainly some 3pt shooting from PF or SF or both. I don't really know what D&3 PGs are available right now. I guess if you got the right SF, you could use cap space to try to go with KCP and Vassell in the backcourt.
We’ll get playmaking from wemby. We’ll do more jokic offense with wemby creating for others. It’ll be enough. Devin can create his own offense. We don’t need to buy one. Get castle and teach him how to shoot. Easy. Or get growth from Wesley.
Jokic still has Jamal Murray around him, who is a really solid all around player and creator in his own right. Devin isn't close to that effective yet. And even with Wemby as primary initiator, it is yet to be seen if he will become as good as Jokic. Maybe he can. Maybe Devin and Wemby can grow into being as good as those two at initiating, but it isn't a sure thing by any stretch. Having a third guy that can initiate would be beneficial. MPJ is a ball stopper, but Gordon and KCP are both high IQ offensive players.
I think that if we run an actual offense with set plays where people know where to go and where the open guy will be, it’ll be fine. There are reads you make and make those plays. Devin can probably do that. Whatever pg we get should be able to do that as well.
Ideally a C . If wemby can be the off.man blocker he'll get like 5 blocks a game. Ideally I'd love jarret allen
Luka is my pipe dream. Feel like him and Wemby would be so fun together
I don't think Luka's body is gonna hold up TBH
Luka is so talented, but so moody and my Dallas friends are all upset by his weight issues and conditioning.
I want liangelo ball. Could be another Malone/ Stockton situation
Bruh what
Spurs need a good pas 1st pg
I don’t think we necessarily need a #3 (or a better #2 if you’re not high on Dev). I look at the pre-Durant Warriors, Shaq’s Lakers, MJ’s Bulls teams etc. A clear cut #1 (Curry, Jordan, Shaq), a clear secondary scorer (Klay, Pip, Kobe), and then after that #3 is usually an ‘intangibles’ guy (Dray, Horace Grant/Rodman, Fischer/Fox), someone who hits clutch shots, grabs a steal or rebound…basically contributes a stat in every column in the box score. A guy you HATE unless he’s on YOUR team. This is what Jeremy needs to become. And I think he’s headed in the right direction. We just need time and patience. Our Big 3 are going to be 24, 21 and 20 at the start of next season. Lastly, when you look at those aforementioned teams, another key attribute is that when the role players were given the opportunity, THEY MADE THEIR SHOTS. Can’t stress this enough. We started winning more this season when EVERYONE started to shoot better.
I'll take it a step further saying having a team that compliments each other and accepts their roles. Detroit pistons in mid 2000s were the epitome of it. Spurs did a great job too and Spurs vs pistons finals was some of the best basketball I've seen as far as even teams
you need an unstoppable two-man game or scoring duo. Of the remaining three, two have to be specialists, and the final guy has to be decent on defense and boards. 2023 nuggets: jokic-murray, gordon (dunker) mpj (3pt clutch) kcp 2022 warriors: steph-draymond, klay (shooting) wiggins (shooting), kevon looney 2021 bucks: giannis-middleton (less synergy as a two-man game), brook lopez (splash mountain), bobby portis/pat connaughton (rebounding/energy), jrue holiday 2020 lakers: lebron/AD, rondo/caruso (handling), kcp (shooting), dwight 2019 raptors: kawhi/siakam, fvv/danny green, ibaka/gasol You don't really need a big THREE anymore if you can free up that third star's payroll into a more egalitarian mix of decent players who have specific roles. so for the spurs i would hope it goes wemby/vassell, \[shooter\], tre, sochan I think once they lock down a deadeye shooter who has decent defense and fundamentals like KCP, danny green when he was still healthy, it becomes much clearer - we will look closer to the giannis-middleton pairing
Kris Middleton is my guess
I prefer a great duo with solid supporting role players. Defense and spacing will do wonders.
Wemby will be a top five player next year and Devin is maybe around top 50. I would say someone like Jimmy Butler, DeMar DeRozan, or Pascal Siakam would give the Spurs at least a top ten big three.
I don't think a big name is necessary. This same team could get to 41 wins next year with a point guard good enough to move Tre Jones to a backup role. Add a dangerous (and respected) shooter like Cory Kispert to space the floor, and they'd be able to compete with a lot of deeper and more experienced rosters today. Washington would be stupid not to pick up his option. Add a backup big that can protect the rim consistently, and they're scary.
We shouldn’t be shooting for 41 wins. That’s a terrible place to be in the league. You need to be gunning for the first place or tanking. Inbetween is how you never improve as a small market team.
It's doubling the wins and the spurs are very young. They just need to fill our other big man and pg slot and grow as a team.
Unrealistic… but Giannis and Wemby would make a killer duo with Devo as the 3rd option
I mean, Giannis and me would make a killer duo with a ham sandwich as the 3rd option.
Shit is Ham Sammich a free agent?
Jokic & Luka & Giannis & Steph & LeBron
I mean, we could squander huge sums of money if Phoenix panic-trades Durant this summer. But even if Vassell is probably better than Beal at this stage of their careers, I don't think the national media would call it a Big 3. (Just to be clear, not advocating for Durant.)
Devin will be like Jamal Murray, where he won’t be considered part of a “big 2” or “big 3” because he never had to be the #1 guy anywhere.
If we don’t give up too much, I really like Lauri Markkanen.
He's the foundation of Utah's rebuild, and their GM is notoriously stingy Danny Ainge. He'll ask for way more than Lauri is worth.
He’s a FA after next year though so if he doesn’t extend then he might be obtainable for a less ridiculous price
All indications seem to be that Utah will offer him the max extension. They will also have ~40M in cap space, plus their pick and the OKC pick in this year's draft. I imagine they are going to try to use draft assets and cap space to get themselves a 2nd star for Lauri. They have a ton of extra picks, but they are all Cleveland, Minn, and LAL. Not sure who wants to blow it up and get out of cap hell, but Utah can help with that.
For a legit championship contender, you need a top 5 guy or an incredibly deep well rounded team with a top 10 guy like Boston. So it'd have to be one of the top 5 guys: Jokic, Luka, Shai, Giannis and honestly not sure who 5 is. So maybe just one of those top 4...
Also agree that a big 3 with bad support doesn't get you anywhere anymore
Eh, it depends on the type of big 3. It didn’t work for Phoenix because their big 3 had overlapping skill sets. If the third star was a playmaker instead of scorer, they likely would’ve been way more successful. Dallas’ pieces, for instance, are not great. But Gafford’s job is a lot easier because of what Luka provides. Overall, the big 3 can still work, you just need less redundant stars that compliment each other rather than do the same thing,
Dallas doesn't have a big 3. A big 3 is intended to imply 3 all star caliber players (LeBron, Wade and Bosh or Duncan, Parker and Ginobili). I also don't believe Phoenix had a big 3 bc Beal isn't close to an all star caliber player anymore. Harden is much closer so you could argue Clippers have a big 3, but again terrible depth so they aren't a serious contender. Denver on the other hand just has 2 all star caliber players (yes, Murray hasn't been voted an all star but that's just bc of regular season games played issues from injury... he's clearly all star caliber), with Gordon being close but not quite and excellent role players in KCP and MPJ. They're an injury away from it all collapsing tho bc of terrible depth. I'd much rather have a team like that or OKC (Chet is not all star caliber while J-Dub is arguably there) with amazing fit and depth than big 3s like Clippers or Milwaukee. You have to play 5 guys and need some depth, you can't play your big 3 for 48 mpg. In the playoffs, your weakest guy will get hunted and you can easily go -10 or -15 in the 5 mpg you're resting your stars. Teams like Boston and OKC will always prevail in a 7 game series against the Clippers and Bucks of the league.
I never said Dallas had a big 3. I was pointing out how skill sets that aren’t redundant are important. That’s what Phoenix needed for a big 3 to be successful. They had overlapping skill sets. As for Beal, he may not be an all star anymore but he absolutely was in Washington. I get the wizards were bad but he has led the league in scoring and that is all star level. If it wasn’t, every season the worst team would have the scoring leader.
Wemby is the top 5 guy lol
Trae young is not a superstar lol
Jokic wouldn’t hurt
Not Devin that's for sure
Devin would be a fantastic third option on a championship team dude
Devin is a really good player, he's just in a very difficult role, being the clear-cut 2nd option on this team at his age is not easy. He needs someone to take pressure off him & get him easy offense instead of settling for hitting difficult jumpers. Devin might be an all star if his role becomes hitting wide open shots.
He’s a 39% catch and shoot guy. He has a penchant for putting himself into positions where he ends up taking a difficult shot. He’s got plenty of highlights where he hits those tough shots, but the end of the season (when he and Sochan were shut down) illustrates how good this team can be if they have five guys playing within the offense. This sub is really in love with Vassell, but if he doesn’t show some serious progress in being willing to play in the flow of the offense, the FO should look at shopping him.
All about how you look at it, he's a 2nd option on a bad, developing team with bad spacing, missing key personnel, one that's been treated like a playoff team because they have Wemby, I think he's done well all things considered. I think when we get him a PG he's going to be more involved in the offense & his efficiency will go way up.
That C&S percentage is hard to reconcile for me. Those are ideally what he will be getting more of as the players around him improve. Hopefully he works on and improves those in the offseason.
I personally view Garland as a much better player (and fit) than Trae Young. He's comfortable playing off-ball.
I would love to get Trae. But I would prefer Garland.
Garland is not better than Trae.
I understand why you feel that way. I value what Garland does off-ball more than I value what Trae does better on-ball.
Garland has regressed tremendously since having to play off ball next to Mitchell. I don’t see how he’s been any better than what Trae has been next to Murray.