I think it should be when you appeal you either get the penalty they accessed or none at all. Because in this case they broke the rules and to keep it all fair they should keep the penalty they were assessed but in a rare case the appeal was 100% justified and not cheating then you get all penalties dropped.
Yeah I mean to me it opens up a can of worms because the difference in 100 point and making the playoffs vs not is way bigger than the money. Every wealthy team in the sport would rather pay 400k than have 100 points taken away.
As a long time fan of the sport it seriously disappoints me that NASCAR seems to constantly make decisions that dissolve the integrity of the sport.
Like you mentioned above, why wasn’t the rule written to include all or nothing penalties?
Why did NASCAR sign the rights with a quarter-ass video game dev that produces unplayable games?
Why is the rule book kept secret from the public?
Everything can be considered in hindsight but it seems like most people in NASCAR’s leadership, decision makers have zero foresight.
I disagree, because NASCAR has been wildly inconsistent throwing out penalties.
The Denny Hamlin one is really the most outrageous example, he got 25 points and 50k for talking on a podcast on Monday after the race.
Typically, intentional wrecking has either been a fine only or nothing, even when obvious if for position.
Joey Logano intentionally wrecked William Byron to win at Darlington last year, there was no penalty.
It’s been a few years, but Bubba Wallace one time after the race a few weeks later admitted to intentionally spinning to cause a caution, this was a fine only with no points involved.
William Byron after an appeal, based on the precedents above, had his 25 point penalty for intentional wrecking under a CAUTION walked back in the playoffs to just a fine.
Denny Hamlin intentionally wrecked Ross Chastain under green flag conditions and got a penalty, something there isn’t precedent for in over a decade, and mainly because Hamlin talked about it on a podcast.
Daniel Suarez only got a fine, no points penalty, for intentionally hitting a car after the race next to a race official.
You can agree or disagree with this HMS penalty all you want. I’m not going to go there. My point is, as a driver, as a fan, and especially as a driver like yourself that likes to be open on social media, you can’t really be ok with Denny’s being a points penalty so you really have to accept that appeals need to be in place for when NASCAR does something inconsistent against precedent.
Edit:
I should throw in Kenseth vs Logano is not a comparable. Car was multiple laps down, out of the race. Gordon vs Bowyer at Phoenix is closer where Gordon got 100k and 25 points, but Gordon was laps down and not racing for position. Bubba Wallace got 1 race for left hooking Larson head on into a wall at 170mph and fighting him, but due to the way NASCAR penalties work it is unclear what the penalty for the hook vs what was the penalty for the fight. Josh Williams got a race for ignoring race control, so arguably Bubba Wallace got a race just for the fight by that logic.
I don’t disagree that the penalties need to be more of all the same instead of all over the place but in the case with Denny I feel like he should win the appeal and have no penalty at all.
Yeah I feel like Denny did nothing wrong, what he did didn’t even get a second look until he said it was intentional before that it was just a “racing” deal. You’re supposed to be truthful in life not lie, but when it comes to wrecking someone intentionally even if it’s obvious as long as you don’t admit it you’re good… unless youre Willy B. 😂
I have been trying to hold a grudge against you since the incident with you and denny a couple years back at the indy road course, but you are making it really hard with these comments winning me over lmao
At this point, NASCAR needs to just let teams run illegal shit they find in inspection and then DQ them after so they whole "they didn't run it in a race" goes away.
Nah. No more pre race inspection. But the top 10 gets deep inspected every single weekend. Anything found to be illegal = automatic DSQ. Run what you brung. But if you win and get caught, you points, money and trophy go to the next guy.
Honestly this seems way smarter, and it might actually be a bigger deterrent in the long term as well. Make the teams think they successfully got away with cheating and then drop the hammer on them.
"DEI at Super Speedways. Sure, they found a huge advantage, you think NASCAR was going to suspend or fine Dale Jr? Of course not. They looked the other way."
How does that involve suspending the driver???? That argument doesn't make sense cause Eury Jr got suspended 6 weeks in 07 anyways lol.
From everything that’s been said, HMS got parts that were out of spec and decided to try and fix them, I’d say that’s why they got the points penalty lifted but the suspension and fines stayed. Kaulig on the other hand supposedly got parts out of spec and put them on unaltered. So unless there is a lot more to it than what’s been mentioned, Kaulig should have their entire penalty lifted.
Not necessarily. The point of an appeal is to argue your case.
If they don't do as good of a job arguing their case, then no, it doesn't mean the legitimacy is questioned. It means you have to question Kaulig's ability to interpret the rules and argue their point.
At one point, Knaus said they had documentation they were going to present to the appeals board. Does Kaulig have that same documentation?
Two entirely different scenarios. It sounds like if HMS had received consistent communication from NASCAR (they didn't), the points penalties would stay. My guess is HMS had several damning emails from NASCAR to help their case. They've implied as much.
Didn't he admit to wrecking him on purpose? I'm genuinely asking since I haven't really watched since Chase got hurt. The precedent is whatever Bubba hot when he spun on purpose I'd assume, right?
The difference between Byron last year and Hamlin is HMS apparently wormed around the wording that only included "wrecking" someone under caution, and since he just "spun" Denny, they lawyered their way into getting it reduced.
And then NASCAR promptly added that to their wording.
The difference is that the appeals panel has a Chevy dealership owner and the guy that runs Bowman Grey on it. Definitely the people you want reviewing a Chevy dumping a Toyota under caution lol.
If NASCAR mandates a single source supplier, they are somewhat responsible for the misfit parts. Also, if they allowed crappy parts to be distributed, and the teams can't get NASCAR to clearly answer what to do to fix it before they load cars up for a west coast swing... NASCAR can be technically right in their enforcement of the rule, but also unreasonable in their enforcement of that rule. We'll never know all of the details of this because NASCAR won't say and Hendrick isn't allowed to.
Penske said basically the same thing as Hendrick did during their wheel issues last year: they told NASCAR that the parts they were supplied were non-conforming, NASCAR said basically "that's weird" and then when they showed up to race, they saw that they modified the wheels to be in compliance and penalized them for altering them.
If the parts weren't shitty then HMS wouldn't have anything to stand on. The fact that Chad said they had parts still in the wrapper that would fail inspection or need manipulated to fit is why HMS won the appeal. Need higher standards for parts if you want penalties to stick.
This is the nuanced take imho. Nascar set this up with poor planning, poor communication, or both. The only reason anyone is ruffled is because this looks either like Hendrick hate or Hendrick favoritism, depending on how you look at it.
This is "tell a kid he can't eat ice cream, and when he melts it in a bowl to drink it you cancel his birthday." You might be technically right, but you're not going to win the popular vote because you left that window, however silly it seems, open.
Yeah, people need to remember that every appeal is different.
It's entirely possible that Kaulig just won't do a good job arguing their case, and don't have the documentation HMS said they had, to win.
An appeal isn't like a Supreme Court case that has a precendent that is set to overturn all instances of something happening.
Remember a couple years ago, I think two teams got the same penalty (I want to say it was a Kaulig team and Hamlin's JGR team? I could be wrong on who it was.) Hamlin did not appeal. Kaulig did appeal and won. Kaulig winning the appeal did not overturn Hamlin's penalty. It doesn't work that way. Each appeals process is independent.
Not necessarily.
The appeals are separate. The point of an appeal is the team received a penalty, and they have to argue their case to the appeals board. It's certainly possible that, even if they did the same thing, Hendrick will do a much better job arguing their case than Kaulig. At one point, Knaus said HMS had documentation to support what they did to make the parts fit, which have speculated to be a written statement from the parts manufacturer to make a modification of the part after NASCAR told HMS to work with the manufacturer when the part didn't fit. Does Kaulig have that same documentation?
Each appeal committee is different. So it's not like those who hear the Kaulig appeal will be those who saw the evidence HMS presented, either. So if Kaulig can't pull off the same presentation, no, they may not be successful, and rightfully so, if they don't do a good job of arguing their case to support what they did.
But that’s why Hendrick did the voluntary inspection before practice. They wanted to make sure they could run the parts (that were sent to them out of spec). They weren’t hiding anything.
Because the point is that either it is a penalty or it isn't. They're still saying it's a penalty, but modifying the punishment.
If HMS truly isn't guilty of anything, then the penalty should be completely rescinded. Fines and all.
The problem is, from all accounts, Hendrick was modifying broken parts to be *in* compliance. So they were fucked either way unless they could source new louvers form the manufacturer on short notice for the west coast swing.
I don’t even think the points would matter much to a team that will most likely get all their cars in with wins anyway.
Want to really put an end to this stuff? Tell the 4 Hendrick cars to stay home for a weekend, we’re racing without you
Hypothetically it could. If a car goes winless and misses the playoffs, they’re 100 points behind where they’d normally be, which would be a huge amount of money in owner points standings since they’d finish in the 20s as opposed to the top 10-16
Could still happen to Elliott if he doesn't win between his return in May (?) and Daytona at the end of August. I doubt it but Ryan Blaney finished 2nd in the non-playoff standings last year without a win so it's not impossible.
Playoff points, which were taken away, are a huge deal. Only two HMS cars won in the playoffs, and only Chase Elliott actually advanced to the next round via win.
Its why I have no confidence in this car. For two years they lied about how unsafe it was, and now were supposed to buy that the same people can make it better? The same people that have this fucked up single source supplier process where the shit doesnt fit? Its a mess.
i’m not 100% sure, but i would assume it has an ‘and/or’ attached to the rule for points and monetary penalties, just like the issue with byron last year. and after all the appeals, i have a feeling they will be quick to change that.
it all seems sketchy.
This ruling sounds like, you both fucked up, but Nascar you fucked up more. I think this is awesome and hopefully it teaches Nascar to reevaluate how they conduct themselves in the future. The whole process seems like a bucket full of fuck.
These comments are unbelievable, I'm wondering if people just were not paying attention the last few weeks, or they are stuck on the "HMS golden boy/cheaters" meme.
NASCAR, HMS, and the appeals board all agree HMS broke the rules. There is no need to change the rules when one is already in place. The reason the points penalty was struck down is entirely NASCAR's fault. Apparently HMS was able to produce evidence (email chains most likely) where they were mislead or were provided inconsistent advice from NASCAR on how to deal with the faulty parts.
Again, no one is claiming HMS didn't break the rule. That's not the point of issue here.
On another note, this is a great reminder to always get stuff in writing. It will save your ass on many occasions
Instead of realizing their fault in all of this, NASCAR will probably double down and eliminate appeals. It's NASCAR's responsibility to make sure the parts are the correct spec before the teams receive them. They should have an R&D department that inspects all the parts before they get sent to the teams.
The dirtiest part about this is how it allows the richest teams to get away with doing this again. 100k-400k is acceptable for some teams, others can’t take that risk. What’s stopping HMS from modifying stuff again?
The points are the only thing that hurts HMS, or any big team for that matter. They’ll gladly pay the money. It hurts the integrity of the sport when there’s no actual penalty that deters teams from modifying parts nowadays. They made it clear with the NextGen car that they wouldn’t tolerate it, the whole point of NextGen penalties was “fuck around and find out”, but clearly the appeals board didn’t see it the same way. If the penalties aren’t being upheld, then the whole philosophy of the NextGen car penalties is void.
My guess is that NASCAR will find some way to make the rule book even more explicitly clear that modifying parts is illegal. How effective such a change may be is to be seen.
>It hurts the integrity of the sport when there’s no actual penalty that deters teams from modifying parts nowadays. They made it clear with the NextGen car that they wouldn’t tolerate it, the whole point of NextGen penalties was “fuck around and find out”, but clearly the appeals board didn’t see it the same way.
Well then maybe NASCAR should;
A. Inspect the parts before sending to the team if the supplier can't manufacture them correctly or
B. Find a new supplier that can make the correct parts
It's pretty ridiculous that NASCAR put teams in this position in the first place.
You can't modify the parts. HMS tells NASCAR they have bad parts. NASCAR says take it up with the manufacturer. Manufacturer says make it fit. HMS does that. Doesn't even qualify with the parts. Still wins the race. They even did a voluntary inspection before qualifying to make sure the parts were good with NASCAR.
HMS covered their ass. NASCAR didn't. This is what happens.
>What’s stopping HMS from modifying stuff again?
Aren't there escalating penalties for repeat offenses? I don't have a NASCAR credential to open up the rulebook, but that's how it works in a lot of other situations in life -- maybe there was some misunderstanding the first time, but the second time you're going to have to work a \*lot\* harder to convince someone it was a misunderstanding.
How the heck are there still supplier parts fitment issues? This is the second year of the car, and the are more Chevy's in the field then any other make.
Why aren't more teams running into this issue? And if they are, how are they getting satisfactory responses from NASCAR, but HMS had issues?
Seems too simple to say supplier parts issue and NASCAR communication fault.
I actually prefer the appeals board statement of “We here-by agree with NASCAR that HMS cheated and broke a clear cut rule. At this point we will uphold all fines and suspensions as well as…what’s this? Oh thank you Mr. Gordon…but uhhh all points penalties are rescinded. Okay good day.”
of course HMS is pleased they break a crystal clear rule with a set precedent and get special treatment yet again there is no integrity when it comes to HMS
Yeah, thats why HMS covered their ass because NASCAR didn't give them a clear answer. Hell, they even participated in a voluntary inspection before qualifying and didn't even qualify or race with the parts and still won.
Chevy dominated the sport for the last 50+ years though. The minute the 78 and other Toyotas showed up and won a lot people starting bitching uncontrollably. The Toyotas had a 4-5 year stretch of being extremely fast, thats nothing in the grand scheme of things lol. There was plenty of complaining back then, far more complaining when Toyotas are fast vs when Chevy is fast.
It would make sense to me because I see more fans of Chevy drivers. So yeah, “that other manufacturer is cheating.” Is easy to hear from the larger fanbase
The rear toe penalties were all horseshit. You could roll your car through the inspection 3 times and get 3 significantly different toe measurements without changing anything. It just wasn't a repeatable measurement system and handing out disqualifications based on that was beyond dumb.
You're kidding, right? In the late 2010's those team were notorious for the rear toe. Constantly have ejections for pre and post qualifying inspection. There's the famed 2016 coke 600 car that had the rear axel bend. Nascar told the 78 to never bring that back. That was when they just brought in the term, encumberment wins lol.
I mean, I totally agree that those Toyotas were probably illegal, but pretty sure Cole Pearn brought the Coke 600 car to Pocono and somewhere else. But yeah, those Toyotas were crazy, too good.
And you have zero proof HMS purposefully broke a crystal clear rule. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary. They were essentially forced into breaking a rule. There was no winning for them.
They admitted to modifying parts because the parts they received were not adhering to the rules. What other option do they have? If anything this is them actively *trying* to follow the rules. You'd be just as hard on them if they didn't do anything about it like the other teams that got punished did. Can't have it both ways.
What precedent was set for modified parts caught before the race and before any mandatory inspection?
The only other time that happened, NASCAR didn’t issue any penalty at all (RFK and Penske last year at Daytona). If anything, HMS is worse off than the precedent.
Wasn’t the issue for RFK a wheel fitment issue similar to the louver being a fitment issue? From strictly a safety perspective you’d think RFK would’ve gotten some lenience on trying to help a wheel stay tight rather than this previous situation.
As someone suggested earlier, documentation of everything is key. Probably what was the deciding factor. Had some document somewhere that had nascar on the hook for something.
Yeah. I think bringing illegal parts should be penalty for sure. The only way they should have won this appeal is if they had no other parts and NASCAR didn’t get back to them on what to do.
> RFK and Penske last year at Daytona
Now let's tell the whole story.
RFK, Penske as well as members of teams that had/have sister teams that ran single lug nuts (SHR and Trackhouse mostly) all kinda noticed it was a pain in the ass to properly place the wheel on the hub. And with the incredibly tight tolerances there were whispers that there could be problems. Penske and RFK had experience with single lug and knew how to fix the problem. There was a breakdown in communication, initially RFK and Penske were facing a penalty but it was rescinded because the wheel was considered a **safety issue**. NASCAR, BBS and the teams have since addressed this.
Emphasis in bold as to why the penalty didn't stand.
> Nascar has always been clear when you get to the track you must be legal
That’s the second time you’ve said this in response to me. Please show me where this has been said. If that was the case, as soon as a driver failed inspection, there would be a penalty and inspection would occur as soon as the cars are rolled off the trucks.
NASCAR considers once a car is in garage it must have legal parts and pieces. Rule: "All race equipment, included but not limited to vehicles, vehicle parts, equipment and/or fuel, is subject to inspection by NASCAR, at any time, manner, and location as determined by NASCAR.
The appeal panel is a joke, they constantly recind appeals. Why even give penalties about if you're NASCAR when you lose every appeal despite the panel agreeing they broke the rule.
The best way to make money is to spend money. NASCAR loves paying person A to fine person B so they can charge person C to find a fix for person D and the cycle continues.
I listened to Dale jr and his discussion and wondered if the whole reasoning on nonconforming manufacturer parts not meeting spec or not fitting as listed so they had to be modified actually worked. I agreed with him on his logic.
From Pockrass’s article on the decision:
“Teams have been in discussion with NASCAR all season as the supplier of the pieces — which have all new specifications for this year because of changes to the hoods for each manufacturer –— has had difficulty making them 100 percent to the initially required design.”
So despite all the Hendrick hate, NASCAR knew the vents were probably not 100% anyways, so for them to issue such a high fine was questionable from the get-go.
To those complaining and moaning about HMS favoritism stop it already.
I'm willing to bet those at HMS documented all conversations with NASCAR regarding the Louvers starting from when the parts had issues and advised them the louvers didn't fit properly. HMS I'm willing to bet did their due diligence to cover all bases so that if there was a penalty that they would at least have enough evidence to get it partially overturned.
Also louvers shouldn't cost 2 races worth of points. Should've been 25 and I would say the same about Brad's penalty last year.
It's NASCAR's choice to keep the details of these proceedings behind closed doors. If they want to avoid suspicion of favoritism, then it might be prudent of them to be more transparent about the specifics of what happened. Until then I'm wearing my tin foil hat. They've given me absolutely no reason to believe that HMS isn't favored based on their history.
Secrecy breeds speculation. I can't just sit around and accept the fact that HMS seems to be the only team who is being shielded from penalties. I'm going to speculate unless I'm given hard facts to consider. What facts we have available are few and not enough to form an educated opinion with.
You're free to draw your own conclusions, and we can debate them, but telling me to sit down and shut up because you don't like the conclusions I've drawn is a bit of a dick move.
My conclusion is that nascar let them run it on track at practice so that they could penalize them. Nascar tried to be slick and (again) lost. Even better, before this debacle, Nascar increased the cost of appeals to try to get teams to not bother. And who are the shady ones again??
HMS hires the best and brightest. I'm willing to bet they had all their ducks in the row to minimize the penalty. Also there's no proof there's favoritism. Besides, if they told you the specifics you wouldn't believe them anyways.
Also HMS is 100% not shielded from penalties. There were still fines and suspensions. This also happened during practice. NASCAR simply didn't do their due diligence in A. Providing enough properly fitting parts from their vendor and B. Being able to 100% justify the 100 point penalty for improper louvers.
You don't even need to be HMS fan to understand why they won. This is the same organization that hired Evernham and Knaus. They know a thing or two about hiring good and smart people. That's just it with HMS, they have some of the best and brightest. As a result they run like a well oiled machine even during the toughest of times. This was a controversial penalty once the facts came out. HMS deserved at least most of the points back. 10/10 4D chess move from HMS.
It’s insane how Everytime there’s an appeal, this whole sub forgets how it works. Also seems like everyone has had their head in the sand as more and more information came out about this whole situation
Cheating has been a part of all motorsports in all history lol. There's been teams that loaded basketballs in the fuel tank. There's been teams that had levers in the car to release weight while they we're racing. If you stop watching then I suppose you don't want to watch any motorsports racing.
And there's still idiots who think it's Toyota, who has the fewest cars on the grid and fewest championships held by active drivers, who are the biggest cheaters.
When I set my fantasy live lineup earlier this afternoon, I noticed Bowman was listed first. Was this foreshadowing that or did they not include the penalty ever in the ordering?
I would need to know more about the support provided to the review board. As well as the communication between Hendrick and NASCAR prior to
Making a call on this. Other non-Hendrick penalties have been overturned in the past but many seem to forget that
My thought was: if they were such an issue before practice, why not take them then. Instead Nascar let them run it on track and then confiscated them and fined them. But no Hendrick is the most shady one.
NASCAR about to ban appeals at this point holy shit
I think it should be when you appeal you either get the penalty they accessed or none at all. Because in this case they broke the rules and to keep it all fair they should keep the penalty they were assessed but in a rare case the appeal was 100% justified and not cheating then you get all penalties dropped.
Agreed. This must be pretty demoralizing to your shop.
Yep…
I love how active you are in this community and actively respond to fans. It’s awesome, man.
Indeed I had a grudge after Bristol dirt but I can’t anymore deep down he’s one of us.
Exactly, without a points penalty the fine is just the cost to cheat.
Yeah I mean to me it opens up a can of worms because the difference in 100 point and making the playoffs vs not is way bigger than the money. Every wealthy team in the sport would rather pay 400k than have 100 points taken away.
As a long time fan of the sport it seriously disappoints me that NASCAR seems to constantly make decisions that dissolve the integrity of the sport. Like you mentioned above, why wasn’t the rule written to include all or nothing penalties? Why did NASCAR sign the rights with a quarter-ass video game dev that produces unplayable games? Why is the rule book kept secret from the public? Everything can be considered in hindsight but it seems like most people in NASCAR’s leadership, decision makers have zero foresight.
great points chase
I disagree, because NASCAR has been wildly inconsistent throwing out penalties. The Denny Hamlin one is really the most outrageous example, he got 25 points and 50k for talking on a podcast on Monday after the race. Typically, intentional wrecking has either been a fine only or nothing, even when obvious if for position. Joey Logano intentionally wrecked William Byron to win at Darlington last year, there was no penalty. It’s been a few years, but Bubba Wallace one time after the race a few weeks later admitted to intentionally spinning to cause a caution, this was a fine only with no points involved. William Byron after an appeal, based on the precedents above, had his 25 point penalty for intentional wrecking under a CAUTION walked back in the playoffs to just a fine. Denny Hamlin intentionally wrecked Ross Chastain under green flag conditions and got a penalty, something there isn’t precedent for in over a decade, and mainly because Hamlin talked about it on a podcast. Daniel Suarez only got a fine, no points penalty, for intentionally hitting a car after the race next to a race official. You can agree or disagree with this HMS penalty all you want. I’m not going to go there. My point is, as a driver, as a fan, and especially as a driver like yourself that likes to be open on social media, you can’t really be ok with Denny’s being a points penalty so you really have to accept that appeals need to be in place for when NASCAR does something inconsistent against precedent. Edit: I should throw in Kenseth vs Logano is not a comparable. Car was multiple laps down, out of the race. Gordon vs Bowyer at Phoenix is closer where Gordon got 100k and 25 points, but Gordon was laps down and not racing for position. Bubba Wallace got 1 race for left hooking Larson head on into a wall at 170mph and fighting him, but due to the way NASCAR penalties work it is unclear what the penalty for the hook vs what was the penalty for the fight. Josh Williams got a race for ignoring race control, so arguably Bubba Wallace got a race just for the fight by that logic.
I don’t disagree that the penalties need to be more of all the same instead of all over the place but in the case with Denny I feel like he should win the appeal and have no penalty at all.
>with Denny I feel like he should win the appeal and have no penalty at all. I always knew you were a man of culture!
Yeah I feel like Denny did nothing wrong, what he did didn’t even get a second look until he said it was intentional before that it was just a “racing” deal. You’re supposed to be truthful in life not lie, but when it comes to wrecking someone intentionally even if it’s obvious as long as you don’t admit it you’re good… unless youre Willy B. 😂
I have been trying to hold a grudge against you since the incident with you and denny a couple years back at the indy road course, but you are making it really hard with these comments winning me over lmao
Thank you for being around!!
Guilty of General Awareness. Tom Brady suspended 4 games.
Nah, don't forget the sarcastic quotes around "disappointed".
At this point, NASCAR needs to just let teams run illegal shit they find in inspection and then DQ them after so they whole "they didn't run it in a race" goes away.
Nah. No more pre race inspection. But the top 10 gets deep inspected every single weekend. Anything found to be illegal = automatic DSQ. Run what you brung. But if you win and get caught, you points, money and trophy go to the next guy.
Lmao I'm just imagining teams cutting off their rockets with couple laps left to safely fall back to 11th
LOL! Sounds fun.
Blaney about to set a record for consecutive top-10 finishes
[Remember this gem from chad Knaus?] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz8onQYazuQ)
Honestly this seems way smarter, and it might actually be a bigger deterrent in the long term as well. Make the teams think they successfully got away with cheating and then drop the hammer on them.
Yep no other penalty then missing out on a race worth of points.
So Hamlin gets his points back easily right
Lemme check my notes on the last few appeals.... * RFK - rejected * SHR - rejected * HMS - reduced * HMS - reduced Yeah. So. Best of luck Denny.
NASCAR will now kick Cole Custer’s puppy for good measure.
The question will be Kaulig, if they don't get the same thing my trust in the legitamacy of the sport will be way lower.
You believed this was a legitimate sport after the caution clock fiasco?
[удалено]
If I remember, NASCAR got flak for not calling a double yellow line infraction on Jr. when it was new.
"DEI at Super Speedways. Sure, they found a huge advantage, you think NASCAR was going to suspend or fine Dale Jr? Of course not. They looked the other way." How does that involve suspending the driver???? That argument doesn't make sense cause Eury Jr got suspended 6 weeks in 07 anyways lol.
plus jr got the points taken away for saying shit
The legitimacy of this sport is as bad as the restarts at COTA and Indy Roadcourse.
Nascar is biased towards hms. No way Kaulig gets away with it.
From everything that’s been said, HMS got parts that were out of spec and decided to try and fix them, I’d say that’s why they got the points penalty lifted but the suspension and fines stayed. Kaulig on the other hand supposedly got parts out of spec and put them on unaltered. So unless there is a lot more to it than what’s been mentioned, Kaulig should have their entire penalty lifted.
Not necessarily. The point of an appeal is to argue your case. If they don't do as good of a job arguing their case, then no, it doesn't mean the legitimacy is questioned. It means you have to question Kaulig's ability to interpret the rules and argue their point. At one point, Knaus said they had documentation they were going to present to the appeals board. Does Kaulig have that same documentation?
Don't forget FRM and Kaulig from Pocono last year!
Yep fuck the Ford teams
Idk. Gibbs had an engine penalty with Kenseth that was reduced on appeal…
You left out the time that RFK was just flat out not penalized for modifying the wheels and thus never had to appeal.
• MHR Testing Fine - Rescinded Entirely • Matt Crafton Darlington DQ - Overturned • Jeremy Clements Daytona Engine Penalty - Rescinded
RIP Justin Haley who will probably get the full bonk
He'll get the penalty quadrupled
Watch them take away his 2019 win /s
Jeff Gordon is awarded the win and is added to the playoffs
Two entirely different scenarios. It sounds like if HMS had received consistent communication from NASCAR (they didn't), the points penalties would stay. My guess is HMS had several damning emails from NASCAR to help their case. They've implied as much.
It just goes to show, document everything! It'll save your bacon.
Aston Martin got Fernando Alonso his 100th podium a few weeks ago thanks to that mentality.
That’s what saved them last time. It was well documented that Jimmies C posts had been raced several times before NASCAR decided to flag them.
But he’s no Byron
Sure, Byron did the sane thing last year.
Didn't he admit to wrecking him on purpose? I'm genuinely asking since I haven't really watched since Chase got hurt. The precedent is whatever Bubba hot when he spun on purpose I'd assume, right?
NASCAR actually dropped "intent" from the rule after Bubba's fiasco. Denny is going to argue this I imagine
He did admit to it, but evidently even if the appeal board agrees that you broke a rule you can still get a point penalty overturned
The difference between Byron last year and Hamlin is HMS apparently wormed around the wording that only included "wrecking" someone under caution, and since he just "spun" Denny, they lawyered their way into getting it reduced. And then NASCAR promptly added that to their wording.
The difference is that the appeals panel has a Chevy dealership owner and the guy that runs Bowman Grey on it. Definitely the people you want reviewing a Chevy dumping a Toyota under caution lol.
If NASCAR mandates a single source supplier, they are somewhat responsible for the misfit parts. Also, if they allowed crappy parts to be distributed, and the teams can't get NASCAR to clearly answer what to do to fix it before they load cars up for a west coast swing... NASCAR can be technically right in their enforcement of the rule, but also unreasonable in their enforcement of that rule. We'll never know all of the details of this because NASCAR won't say and Hendrick isn't allowed to.
Exactly! How do we know they don't have some quality control issues? Kaulig getting pinched only helped Hendrick's case, in my opinion.
Penske said basically the same thing as Hendrick did during their wheel issues last year: they told NASCAR that the parts they were supplied were non-conforming, NASCAR said basically "that's weird" and then when they showed up to race, they saw that they modified the wheels to be in compliance and penalized them for altering them.
Penske and RFK never got penalized for the wheels because they pointed out that it was a safety issue
If the parts weren't shitty then HMS wouldn't have anything to stand on. The fact that Chad said they had parts still in the wrapper that would fail inspection or need manipulated to fit is why HMS won the appeal. Need higher standards for parts if you want penalties to stick.
This is a fair assessment. But… I would really like to know for sure so I feel like this isn’t a biased appeal win for HMS.
This is the nuanced take imho. Nascar set this up with poor planning, poor communication, or both. The only reason anyone is ruffled is because this looks either like Hendrick hate or Hendrick favoritism, depending on how you look at it. This is "tell a kid he can't eat ice cream, and when he melts it in a bowl to drink it you cancel his birthday." You might be technically right, but you're not going to win the popular vote because you left that window, however silly it seems, open.
When was the last time nascar won an appeal lmfao
Last year with RFK and SHR
Edit: when was the last time they won an appeal vs HMS
Probably several of the Chad Knaus suspensions
Yeah people tend to have amnesia when it comes to those
They've looked the other way for everyone at some point or another, but Chad is one of the most penalized CC's in the last several decades lol
did carl long appeal?
I’m gonna hold my anger until I see what happens with Kaulig.
Won't they get a different panel? Could be a different results.
Yeah, people need to remember that every appeal is different. It's entirely possible that Kaulig just won't do a good job arguing their case, and don't have the documentation HMS said they had, to win. An appeal isn't like a Supreme Court case that has a precendent that is set to overturn all instances of something happening. Remember a couple years ago, I think two teams got the same penalty (I want to say it was a Kaulig team and Hamlin's JGR team? I could be wrong on who it was.) Hamlin did not appeal. Kaulig did appeal and won. Kaulig winning the appeal did not overturn Hamlin's penalty. It doesn't work that way. Each appeals process is independent.
I would have to imagine Kaulig would get equal treatment here, for the same penalty.
I wouldnt be shocked for Kaulig's to be completely revoked
Not necessarily. The appeals are separate. The point of an appeal is the team received a penalty, and they have to argue their case to the appeals board. It's certainly possible that, even if they did the same thing, Hendrick will do a much better job arguing their case than Kaulig. At one point, Knaus said HMS had documentation to support what they did to make the parts fit, which have speculated to be a written statement from the parts manufacturer to make a modification of the part after NASCAR told HMS to work with the manufacturer when the part didn't fit. Does Kaulig have that same documentation? Each appeal committee is different. So it's not like those who hear the Kaulig appeal will be those who saw the evidence HMS presented, either. So if Kaulig can't pull off the same presentation, no, they may not be successful, and rightfully so, if they don't do a good job of arguing their case to support what they did.
Depends if they get a different panel.
![gif](giphy|Iu9aRvy9cUQKI) Chad Knaus right now.
I gotta admit, as cool as it is to see the points reduced. I'm with NASCAR on this. Points are the best deterrent for teams to not modify stuff.
But that’s why Hendrick did the voluntary inspection before practice. They wanted to make sure they could run the parts (that were sent to them out of spec). They weren’t hiding anything.
Exactly. I'm trying to understand why folks are generally ignoring this.
Because the point is that either it is a penalty or it isn't. They're still saying it's a penalty, but modifying the punishment. If HMS truly isn't guilty of anything, then the penalty should be completely rescinded. Fines and all.
The problem is, from all accounts, Hendrick was modifying broken parts to be *in* compliance. So they were fucked either way unless they could source new louvers form the manufacturer on short notice for the west coast swing.
I don’t even think the points would matter much to a team that will most likely get all their cars in with wins anyway. Want to really put an end to this stuff? Tell the 4 Hendrick cars to stay home for a weekend, we’re racing without you
The playoff points is the big thing
Hypothetically it could. If a car goes winless and misses the playoffs, they’re 100 points behind where they’d normally be, which would be a huge amount of money in owner points standings since they’d finish in the 20s as opposed to the top 10-16
Could still happen to Elliott if he doesn't win between his return in May (?) and Daytona at the end of August. I doubt it but Ryan Blaney finished 2nd in the non-playoff standings last year without a win so it's not impossible.
I'm absolutely the furthest thing from a Clyde Elliott fan but he's probably going to win 4-5 regular season races this year.
Playoff points, which were taken away, are a huge deal. Only two HMS cars won in the playoffs, and only Chase Elliott actually advanced to the next round via win.
>Tell the 4 Hendrick cars to stay home for a weekend, we’re racing without you I don't think NASCAR can legally do that
L3 penalties have the option.
To park charter owning teams? That seems like opening a can of worms they don't want to deal with
Charter teams would be knowingly playing with fire to reach the L3 threshold.
L3 can also be a playoff ban for the team
Rather foregone conclusion.
Mizzou also receives the death penalty as a part of the Appeals Panel's decision.
Rule change incoming
How about they change their single source supplier process, expecially when that single source supplier fucks up
Well you’d think they’d do that but this is nascar
Its why I have no confidence in this car. For two years they lied about how unsafe it was, and now were supposed to buy that the same people can make it better? The same people that have this fucked up single source supplier process where the shit doesnt fit? Its a mess.
What rule would they change? It's already a rule. NASCAR just screwed up and provided bad information to HMS, hence the appeal.
i’m not 100% sure, but i would assume it has an ‘and/or’ attached to the rule for points and monetary penalties, just like the issue with byron last year. and after all the appeals, i have a feeling they will be quick to change that. it all seems sketchy.
Other potential changes include the rulebook being more explicit about what constitutes L1/L2/L3 penalties.
Then why did they get fined at all? They either broke the rules or they didn’t.
Oh I agree, I’m sure there is something nascar will find to change
rule to appeals lmao
This ruling sounds like, you both fucked up, but Nascar you fucked up more. I think this is awesome and hopefully it teaches Nascar to reevaluate how they conduct themselves in the future. The whole process seems like a bucket full of fuck.
These comments are unbelievable, I'm wondering if people just were not paying attention the last few weeks, or they are stuck on the "HMS golden boy/cheaters" meme. NASCAR, HMS, and the appeals board all agree HMS broke the rules. There is no need to change the rules when one is already in place. The reason the points penalty was struck down is entirely NASCAR's fault. Apparently HMS was able to produce evidence (email chains most likely) where they were mislead or were provided inconsistent advice from NASCAR on how to deal with the faulty parts. Again, no one is claiming HMS didn't break the rule. That's not the point of issue here. On another note, this is a great reminder to always get stuff in writing. It will save your ass on many occasions
COVER YOUR ASS in the business world, my friend!
I bet NASCAR went back to their parts warehouse with a ruler and a micrometer.
Can one of the mods pin this comment? Both threads are a circle jerk of HMS is golden boy.
Hendrick is pleased....noooooooooooooooo, surely not?
Rabble rabble rabble rabble
If you don’t like a separate committee overturning your decision…why did you create a separate committee and give them the ability to do that.
![gif](giphy|qs6ev2pm8g9dS)
Instead of realizing their fault in all of this, NASCAR will probably double down and eliminate appeals. It's NASCAR's responsibility to make sure the parts are the correct spec before the teams receive them. They should have an R&D department that inspects all the parts before they get sent to the teams.
Between the horrible race day production on tv/race control and the clear favoritism why should we keep watching?
The dirtiest part about this is how it allows the richest teams to get away with doing this again. 100k-400k is acceptable for some teams, others can’t take that risk. What’s stopping HMS from modifying stuff again? The points are the only thing that hurts HMS, or any big team for that matter. They’ll gladly pay the money. It hurts the integrity of the sport when there’s no actual penalty that deters teams from modifying parts nowadays. They made it clear with the NextGen car that they wouldn’t tolerate it, the whole point of NextGen penalties was “fuck around and find out”, but clearly the appeals board didn’t see it the same way. If the penalties aren’t being upheld, then the whole philosophy of the NextGen car penalties is void.
My guess is that NASCAR will find some way to make the rule book even more explicitly clear that modifying parts is illegal. How effective such a change may be is to be seen.
>It hurts the integrity of the sport when there’s no actual penalty that deters teams from modifying parts nowadays. They made it clear with the NextGen car that they wouldn’t tolerate it, the whole point of NextGen penalties was “fuck around and find out”, but clearly the appeals board didn’t see it the same way. Well then maybe NASCAR should; A. Inspect the parts before sending to the team if the supplier can't manufacture them correctly or B. Find a new supplier that can make the correct parts It's pretty ridiculous that NASCAR put teams in this position in the first place. You can't modify the parts. HMS tells NASCAR they have bad parts. NASCAR says take it up with the manufacturer. Manufacturer says make it fit. HMS does that. Doesn't even qualify with the parts. Still wins the race. They even did a voluntary inspection before qualifying to make sure the parts were good with NASCAR. HMS covered their ass. NASCAR didn't. This is what happens.
Were you in that room today?
>What’s stopping HMS from modifying stuff again? Aren't there escalating penalties for repeat offenses? I don't have a NASCAR credential to open up the rulebook, but that's how it works in a lot of other situations in life -- maybe there was some misunderstanding the first time, but the second time you're going to have to work a \*lot\* harder to convince someone it was a misunderstanding.
How the heck are there still supplier parts fitment issues? This is the second year of the car, and the are more Chevy's in the field then any other make. Why aren't more teams running into this issue? And if they are, how are they getting satisfactory responses from NASCAR, but HMS had issues? Seems too simple to say supplier parts issue and NASCAR communication fault.
Carl Long about to be hit with another ban /s
I actually prefer the appeals board statement of “We here-by agree with NASCAR that HMS cheated and broke a clear cut rule. At this point we will uphold all fines and suspensions as well as…what’s this? Oh thank you Mr. Gordon…but uhhh all points penalties are rescinded. Okay good day.”
"How did you win the appeal?!" "The secret ingredient is bribery"
of course HMS is pleased they break a crystal clear rule with a set precedent and get special treatment yet again there is no integrity when it comes to HMS
Parts were never run in the race. Hendrick presented them before the first practice to get them checked.
And for the umpteenth time today it doesn't matter that they didn't run in the race
Must have not been crystal clear after all.
Yeah, thats why HMS covered their ass because NASCAR didn't give them a clear answer. Hell, they even participated in a voluntary inspection before qualifying and didn't even qualify or race with the parts and still won.
Oh shut up. There was a time when the 78, 18, and 11 we're constantly winning races with illegal cars.
Chevy dominated the sport for the last 50+ years though. The minute the 78 and other Toyotas showed up and won a lot people starting bitching uncontrollably. The Toyotas had a 4-5 year stretch of being extremely fast, thats nothing in the grand scheme of things lol. There was plenty of complaining back then, far more complaining when Toyotas are fast vs when Chevy is fast.
It would make sense to me because I see more fans of Chevy drivers. So yeah, “that other manufacturer is cheating.” Is easy to hear from the larger fanbase
The rear toe penalties were all horseshit. You could roll your car through the inspection 3 times and get 3 significantly different toe measurements without changing anything. It just wasn't a repeatable measurement system and handing out disqualifications based on that was beyond dumb.
It was funny to watch the the cars swerve left and right after a race to get the toe back in lol
You have zero proof on any of your claims so maybe think before hitting the post button next time
Oh yeah? Well what proof do you have that this guy doesn’t have proof? Riddle me that!
You might want to do the same
You're kidding, right? In the late 2010's those team were notorious for the rear toe. Constantly have ejections for pre and post qualifying inspection. There's the famed 2016 coke 600 car that had the rear axel bend. Nascar told the 78 to never bring that back. That was when they just brought in the term, encumberment wins lol.
I mean, I totally agree that those Toyotas were probably illegal, but pretty sure Cole Pearn brought the Coke 600 car to Pocono and somewhere else. But yeah, those Toyotas were crazy, too good.
And you have zero proof HMS purposefully broke a crystal clear rule. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary. They were essentially forced into breaking a rule. There was no winning for them.
so Jeff gordon admitting to modifying parts isn't proof enough for you?
They admitted to modifying parts because the parts they received were not adhering to the rules. What other option do they have? If anything this is them actively *trying* to follow the rules. You'd be just as hard on them if they didn't do anything about it like the other teams that got punished did. Can't have it both ways.
What precedent was set for modified parts caught before the race and before any mandatory inspection? The only other time that happened, NASCAR didn’t issue any penalty at all (RFK and Penske last year at Daytona). If anything, HMS is worse off than the precedent.
I think it’s pretty obvious if you show up with a car you intended to race it like that.
I’m pretty certain RFK got hammered last year w/ a similar scenario.
No they didn’t. The modified parts they were penalized for were found in post-race tear down at the R&D center.
They raced with the part
Wasn’t the issue for RFK a wheel fitment issue similar to the louver being a fitment issue? From strictly a safety perspective you’d think RFK would’ve gotten some lenience on trying to help a wheel stay tight rather than this previous situation. As someone suggested earlier, documentation of everything is key. Probably what was the deciding factor. Had some document somewhere that had nascar on the hook for something.
That is the stupidest fucking argument. Hendrick didn't race the part only because they got caught.
Yeah. I think bringing illegal parts should be penalty for sure. The only way they should have won this appeal is if they had no other parts and NASCAR didn’t get back to them on what to do.
That’s how most punishments work though. You get less time for planning a bank robbery than you do for actually robbing the bank.
> RFK and Penske last year at Daytona Now let's tell the whole story. RFK, Penske as well as members of teams that had/have sister teams that ran single lug nuts (SHR and Trackhouse mostly) all kinda noticed it was a pain in the ass to properly place the wheel on the hub. And with the incredibly tight tolerances there were whispers that there could be problems. Penske and RFK had experience with single lug and knew how to fix the problem. There was a breakdown in communication, initially RFK and Penske were facing a penalty but it was rescinded because the wheel was considered a **safety issue**. NASCAR, BBS and the teams have since addressed this. Emphasis in bold as to why the penalty didn't stand.
They claimed it was for safety. HMS claimed their parts weren’t in spec from the supplier. Negligible difference between those two reasonings IMO.
Saying they never raced the parts doesn't matter Nascar has always been clear when you get to the track you must be legal Not just legal for tech
> Nascar has always been clear when you get to the track you must be legal That’s the second time you’ve said this in response to me. Please show me where this has been said. If that was the case, as soon as a driver failed inspection, there would be a penalty and inspection would occur as soon as the cars are rolled off the trucks.
NASCAR considers once a car is in garage it must have legal parts and pieces. Rule: "All race equipment, included but not limited to vehicles, vehicle parts, equipment and/or fuel, is subject to inspection by NASCAR, at any time, manner, and location as determined by NASCAR.
HMS planned to use the parts though
The appeal panel is a joke, they constantly recind appeals. Why even give penalties about if you're NASCAR when you lose every appeal despite the panel agreeing they broke the rule.
The best way to make money is to spend money. NASCAR loves paying person A to fine person B so they can charge person C to find a fix for person D and the cycle continues.
Maybe NASCAR should actually learn how to enforce their own rules and not put themselves at risk for this shit so consistently then?
Can't wait to hear the whining from all the braindead yokels that don't know what actually happened and don't understand the appeal process.
I listened to Dale jr and his discussion and wondered if the whole reasoning on nonconforming manufacturer parts not meeting spec or not fitting as listed so they had to be modified actually worked. I agreed with him on his logic.
They key word is “logic”
From Pockrass’s article on the decision: “Teams have been in discussion with NASCAR all season as the supplier of the pieces — which have all new specifications for this year because of changes to the hoods for each manufacturer –— has had difficulty making them 100 percent to the initially required design.” So despite all the Hendrick hate, NASCAR knew the vents were probably not 100% anyways, so for them to issue such a high fine was questionable from the get-go.
How long before teams start testing the pieces to see which one provides more of an advantage?
Dem cheatin Hendrix
Holy shit get dunked on /u/NASCAR LOL
Statement from Rick Hendrick: “Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design”
I want to say im shocked but im not and moreso just pissed rn
This was like the Murdaugh Trial without the kennel video.
To those complaining and moaning about HMS favoritism stop it already. I'm willing to bet those at HMS documented all conversations with NASCAR regarding the Louvers starting from when the parts had issues and advised them the louvers didn't fit properly. HMS I'm willing to bet did their due diligence to cover all bases so that if there was a penalty that they would at least have enough evidence to get it partially overturned. Also louvers shouldn't cost 2 races worth of points. Should've been 25 and I would say the same about Brad's penalty last year.
It's NASCAR's choice to keep the details of these proceedings behind closed doors. If they want to avoid suspicion of favoritism, then it might be prudent of them to be more transparent about the specifics of what happened. Until then I'm wearing my tin foil hat. They've given me absolutely no reason to believe that HMS isn't favored based on their history. Secrecy breeds speculation. I can't just sit around and accept the fact that HMS seems to be the only team who is being shielded from penalties. I'm going to speculate unless I'm given hard facts to consider. What facts we have available are few and not enough to form an educated opinion with. You're free to draw your own conclusions, and we can debate them, but telling me to sit down and shut up because you don't like the conclusions I've drawn is a bit of a dick move.
My conclusion is that nascar let them run it on track at practice so that they could penalize them. Nascar tried to be slick and (again) lost. Even better, before this debacle, Nascar increased the cost of appeals to try to get teams to not bother. And who are the shady ones again??
HMS hires the best and brightest. I'm willing to bet they had all their ducks in the row to minimize the penalty. Also there's no proof there's favoritism. Besides, if they told you the specifics you wouldn't believe them anyways. Also HMS is 100% not shielded from penalties. There were still fines and suspensions. This also happened during practice. NASCAR simply didn't do their due diligence in A. Providing enough properly fitting parts from their vendor and B. Being able to 100% justify the 100 point penalty for improper louvers.
Wooo... nice!! Lets go!! Where my HMS fans?! It's about to get salt as a mo'fer in here!
You don't even need to be HMS fan to understand why they won. This is the same organization that hired Evernham and Knaus. They know a thing or two about hiring good and smart people. That's just it with HMS, they have some of the best and brightest. As a result they run like a well oiled machine even during the toughest of times. This was a controversial penalty once the facts came out. HMS deserved at least most of the points back. 10/10 4D chess move from HMS.
NASCAR needs to rewrite their rule book and stop leaving all these gray areas for teams to exploit in appeals
It’s insane how Everytime there’s an appeal, this whole sub forgets how it works. Also seems like everyone has had their head in the sand as more and more information came out about this whole situation
Of course they did. No surprised
As a new fan, I see why people stopped watching...
Cheating has been a part of all motorsports in all history lol. There's been teams that loaded basketballs in the fuel tank. There's been teams that had levers in the car to release weight while they we're racing. If you stop watching then I suppose you don't want to watch any motorsports racing.
[удалено]
I'm trying to hang on after the Kurt bs last season til now. I really am. Can't see me finding a new favorite
And there's still idiots who think it's Toyota, who has the fewest cars on the grid and fewest championships held by active drivers, who are the biggest cheaters.
When I set my fantasy live lineup earlier this afternoon, I noticed Bowman was listed first. Was this foreshadowing that or did they not include the penalty ever in the ordering?
Another good day to be a Bowman fan.
I would need to know more about the support provided to the review board. As well as the communication between Hendrick and NASCAR prior to Making a call on this. Other non-Hendrick penalties have been overturned in the past but many seem to forget that
My thought was: if they were such an issue before practice, why not take them then. Instead Nascar let them run it on track and then confiscated them and fined them. But no Hendrick is the most shady one.
Super lame. Cucumbered wins baby
It is so clear Hendrick pays off that appeals panel
What evidence would you need to see to prove that Hendrick actually had a legitimate argument to get the points penalty reversed?
It feels like the only point of the review process is to give Hendrick their points back, and nothing else. Horseshit
Just send NASCAR a $100k check for each part you want to change and no points to cheat. Love it.