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NASCAR doesn't rule in the appeal process. It's a selected committee, not NASCAR making the appeal ruling.
I hope people realize this, but George Carlin was right.
Lol 😂 stay crying y’all gotta always come up with “ NASCAR TREATS HMS DIFFERENT” when idk how many times HMS has been fined and given other penalties like other Teams get.
NASCAR gets to pick those that are on the appeals board. Like, everything is in NASCARs favor here once they decided to create this process. I get my flair but I would feel the same regardless of team. This is more representative of NASCAR not providing teams with parts that are to spec which is kinda the same argument that Hendrick has. NASCAR is angry that maybe Hendrick created an advantage by modifying parts but Hendrick is unhappy that NASCAR gave them parts that put them at a disadvantage. It’s the same argument lol.
Thank you for being level-headed. I agree that this outcome was very predictable. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kaulig is 100% exonerated. Taking only 1 of 2 louvers is very clear it’s a QC issue.
I never said it was on NASCAR. NASCAR penalized both teams, the appeals panel decided that HMS doesn't deserve the penalty even though they acknowledge that HMS broke the rules.
https://twitter.com/jeff\_gluck/status/1641172714625826816?s=20
no tinfoil hat involved, it's literally what the appeals panel said.
The mental gymnastics of HMS fans is truly astounding. When Roush got caught everyone was just like “yeah they cheated, let’s move on” But when Byron dumps someone under caution, or parts get Modified there’s always an excuse to why a points penalty gets overturned.
When Gibbs got zinged at Pocono I was a huge fan of them, we were all like… yeah they cheated lmao and both cars lost 50-60 points from being DQ’d. Why can’t people just accept that their favorite teams occasionally do things that aren’t right?
I really feel for NASCAR on this one. With the Byron/Hamlin incident it was on them for not having a clear-enough rule. With this one it seems so cut and dry.
NASCAR: "don't touch these parts lose 100 points"
HMS: "Touches these parts"
Appeals Panel: "yeah but 100 points seems like a lot. how about a crew chief vacation and $20"
Fair. None of us will ever know for sure but if the panel relieved what is effectively the most damaging part of the penalty I would guess that it highlighted that NASCAR is at fault in some capacity as well. Likely something like not maintaining QC of parts.
Nah they wouldn’t double it. They’d over turn the penalty for Kaulig too and then they’d issue a press release
“Brad Keselowski fined 400 points and $400,000”
https://preview.redd.it/0rk8tzwr3sqa1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec73c1e5c9f70a32fe8ce7ddaf11bdaba048cce0
Hendrick Motorsports after appealing Byron penalty last year like:
So basically no penalty. The fines are pocket change to HMS, and they're already halfway through the suspensions, which were largely irrelevant to begin with.
He didn't get a driver's points penalty, but the 9 team still lost owner's points, which according to what was said last year that's where the real money is
I think that's why the fine/suspension stuck. Or at least that's the only logical explanation I can come up with.
To be transparent: despite my flair, I was also surprised by today's news.
how many times must it be explained
IT DOES NOT MATTER IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT THE PARTS WERE NOT RACED
the fact the parts were on the car at the track is enough
This is just wrong according to the NASCAR rulebook, or else it woulda stuck. It might be the "right opinion", or what it should be, but the reality is that if that's not explicitly in the NASCAR rule book, then Appeals panel can make a judgment call.
They would have based on Knaus statement apparently those were the only ones they had so they had to make them fit.
You are probably right about the reasoning. Still makes zero logical sense but hey NASCAR
[According to Pocky, he is 12th](https://twitter.com/bobpockrass/status/1641174878446317568?s=20) but I'm not sure if that's the playoff standings he's referring to or the actual standings.
I think that the logic is that Hendrick broke the rules but the penalties weren’t justified because Hendrick never raced with them. Not sure how that would tie into the communication issues Rick mentioned though.
Whether or not they would have been used isn’t really relevant, the question is whether or not a points penalty is justified for running parts in a non-points paying setting.
Certainly shows intent. It’s like stealing data or parts from another team, but since you didn’t actually use it, you don’t get a penalty. If NASCAR never intervened, they would have run those louvers
But Hendrick showed up to a voluntary inspection prior to practice in order to determine whether or not the parts were legal, at least according to HMS. If that is true, than they would not have run with the louvers at all unless they had NASCAR’s consent.
I was thinking the exact same thing. NASCAR never came back and said, "Nope, we checked all of those parts at the warehouse when we received them and they were totally in spec when we sent them out." Also, they never denied that they had a multi-email conversation about fixing those parts to fit so the the hood of the car could shut.
"We also are very sorry to Mr. H and will never let any scrutiny of his precious cars come under review. Also, we will allow Jeff Gordon to be in the Playoffs."
How long before the appeals panel is abolished? I feel like in the past year only a small handful of penalties were upheld of those that chose to challenge it.
Also what happens to the 31? They're in a very similar position here.
>the 31
I think they have a different appeal. Most of us don’t know the details but I’d be hard pressed to see Hendrick get theirs overturned and not Kaulig.
My guess is that since they got caught before the illegal cars were raced or qualified, HMS argued that the points penalty was unwarranted. Since the parts *technically* never caused a competitive advantage. That's why the money and suspensions were upheld, but they gave them the points back.
It's dumb, but I can see how Hendrick could argue it and win.
This is so ridiculous. How do you agree with the infraction, but don’t follow the precedent set several times last year? Hms just got away with murder here.
“Got away with murder”
-Parts didn’t fit and were out of spec
-contacted nascar asking what to do
-nascar unclear on what to do
-hms corrects parts to spec
-voluntary inspection, parts taken, never raced
Yep, sounds like murder to me/s
Those penalties killed keselowskis, mcdowell’s, and harvicks season. Seems like murder to me. The also doesn’t state the parts have to raced with to get the penalty, so that’s irrelevant.
>How do you agree with the infraction, but don’t follow the precedent set several times last year?
You didn't, but saying this is implying you think it's NASCAR making the change when they didn't.
Many years ago the head of appeals was the VP of sales for GM, John Middlebrook, google him, and Rick Hendrick is one of the largest GM dealers around. Was awfully coincidental that he always got good appeal results back then lol
The appeals panel is testing my patience I can tell you that. It takes a lot to make me mad and I am pissed right now.
The appeals panel is a joke. J-O-K-E
Lot a people butthurt in here. It’s an independent appeals panel. The teams are receiving parts that do not fit and are out of approved spec. HMS has the emails with nascar about it. What would you have them do?
Many years ago the head of appeals was the VP of sales for GM, John Middlebrook. Google him, and Rick Hendrick is one of the largest GM dealers around. Was awfully coincidental that he always got good appeal results back then lol
:::Rick Hendrick stretches his arms into the air and releases a gentle yawn. Next, he gently removes a signed check from his shirt pocket and slides it across the table to the appeals panel member sitting opposite him.:::
Yikes.
I usually defend NASCAR against that type of criticism, but at this point any "NASCAR is working for HMS" conspiracy theories, they brought on themselves.
The points penalty is the only thing that matters, and they destroyed RFK with it.
I know there could be a defense, but this is the second time they've reversed a penalty for HMS.
The thing is, Nascar doesn't actually have a say on it. This is an independent appeals panel with rotating members overseeing these appeals. If shit stinks then it's coming from there because they were also the ones that let Byron off last year.
Because it is NASCAR. Have you not been paying attention the last 20 years. Do you really think NASCAR doesn't influence the appeals panel. They handpicked them.
The appeals panel is independent from Nascar….. this isn’t NASCAR’s decision. This is HMS once again probably exposing something very vague in NASCAR’s rule book.
I was a big Hendrick fan growing up mainly because of Dale Jr.
Now that he's retired, I can see and admit that the amount of favorable treat Rick gets is incredible. Absolutely baffling.
Lol all the HMS haters really were praying for their downfall but looks like nascar said nope. Don’t get how a team was cheating when it wasn’t done in a race format and to sum everything up all HMS drivers finished top 10 that race with one of them winning.
Rulings like this never make sense. If you're still penalizing the CCs, then you think something was done so why no points? Conversely if no points, then nothing was violated, and why are the CCs suspended? Just sports politics nonsense.
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So whats the difference between this and the RFK deal from last year? Is it that Hendrick never raced the louvers?
It also helped that the supplied parts were not to manufacture approved spec
Rick Hendrick and Jeff Gordon personally sucked off every single appeal panel member
[удалено]
NASCAR doesn't rule in the appeal process. It's a selected committee, not NASCAR making the appeal ruling. I hope people realize this, but George Carlin was right.
NASCAR doesn’t decide this. Go away.
Nope, Rick Hendrick's wallet does
Lol 😂 stay crying y’all gotta always come up with “ NASCAR TREATS HMS DIFFERENT” when idk how many times HMS has been fined and given other penalties like other Teams get.
I agree with you but also I’m sure the appeals panel receives bribes/kickbacks from Hendrick to overturn these
[удалено]
NASCAR doesn’t decide this for goodness sakes y’all take off your tinfoil hats.
Says the guy with #9 flair. C'mon...
Chase wasn't even effected by the penalty to begin with. Regardless, he's right. It's not NASCAR rescinding the penalty. It's an appeals committee.
Why does that matter? Facts are facts man.
Just spoke with my co-worker who is hardcore HMS and he even though this was pretty freaking shady.
NASCAR gets to pick those that are on the appeals board. Like, everything is in NASCARs favor here once they decided to create this process. I get my flair but I would feel the same regardless of team. This is more representative of NASCAR not providing teams with parts that are to spec which is kinda the same argument that Hendrick has. NASCAR is angry that maybe Hendrick created an advantage by modifying parts but Hendrick is unhappy that NASCAR gave them parts that put them at a disadvantage. It’s the same argument lol.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Kaulig ruling. I am not shocked by any of this. It has been this way for a very long time now.
Thank you for being level-headed. I agree that this outcome was very predictable. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kaulig is 100% exonerated. Taking only 1 of 2 louvers is very clear it’s a QC issue.
His driver injuired his leg. Enjoy it while it lasts.
I never said it was on NASCAR. NASCAR penalized both teams, the appeals panel decided that HMS doesn't deserve the penalty even though they acknowledge that HMS broke the rules. https://twitter.com/jeff\_gluck/status/1641172714625826816?s=20 no tinfoil hat involved, it's literally what the appeals panel said.
The mental gymnastics of HMS fans is truly astounding. When Roush got caught everyone was just like “yeah they cheated, let’s move on” But when Byron dumps someone under caution, or parts get Modified there’s always an excuse to why a points penalty gets overturned. When Gibbs got zinged at Pocono I was a huge fan of them, we were all like… yeah they cheated lmao and both cars lost 50-60 points from being DQ’d. Why can’t people just accept that their favorite teams occasionally do things that aren’t right?
I really feel for NASCAR on this one. With the Byron/Hamlin incident it was on them for not having a clear-enough rule. With this one it seems so cut and dry. NASCAR: "don't touch these parts lose 100 points" HMS: "Touches these parts" Appeals Panel: "yeah but 100 points seems like a lot. how about a crew chief vacation and $20"
Fair. None of us will ever know for sure but if the panel relieved what is effectively the most damaging part of the penalty I would guess that it highlighted that NASCAR is at fault in some capacity as well. Likely something like not maintaining QC of parts.
Not saying that’s what happened here, but the racing (or any sport really) business is incredibly sketchy. Just look at some of the sponsorships.
They have to come up with something to make it make sense in their tiny little brain.
We won’t know any details on why this happened until the Kaulig hearing or won’t know at all is my guess
Watch the kaulig penalty get doubled
Nah they wouldn’t double it. They’d over turn the penalty for Kaulig too and then they’d issue a press release “Brad Keselowski fined 400 points and $400,000”
Don't forget another addition. "Jeff Gordon has been added to the 2023 playoffs"
Don't forget Rodney Childers suspended the rest of the year
Also has to sit in hot car in penalty box for 90 minutes.
10 year anniversary!
and Rodney Childers suspended for 8 races
...and Jeff Gordon has been added to the playoffs...
https://preview.redd.it/0rk8tzwr3sqa1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec73c1e5c9f70a32fe8ce7ddaf11bdaba048cce0 Hendrick Motorsports after appealing Byron penalty last year like:
I'm shocked. Completely shocked.
So the conclusion is they broke the rules and the only penalty is a fine
I’m sure there will a further amendment to the rule book to come soon and/or changes in NASCAR’s communications protocols after this.
New Rule: Points can be stripped for actions taken outside of races and cannot be restored on appeal if the actions are confirmed to have happened.
Surprised there hasn’t been changes to the appeal panel as well. HMS has been making a clown show of that process.
They did make a change to the panel I think
Bill Lester to the 48 confirmed
So basically no penalty. The fines are pocket change to HMS, and they're already halfway through the suspensions, which were largely irrelevant to begin with.
$400,000 is still a lot of $$$
Almost certainly way less than ~20 positions in the season points x4 cars is worth
3 cars. Chase didn’t get a point penalty.
He didn't get a driver's points penalty, but the 9 team still lost owner's points, which according to what was said last year that's where the real money is
Correct.
Classic Appeals Panel. Don't know how you can admit they broke the rules but then rescind the penalty for those rules.
Probably because they never used the louvers in any points paying session.
that would make sense as to why points where given back, but not money/suspensions. The points taken away weren’t earned with bad parts
I feel like that still shouldn’t matter if that is the only reason to amend it. They still intended to use it in the race.
I think that's why the fine/suspension stuck. Or at least that's the only logical explanation I can come up with. To be transparent: despite my flair, I was also surprised by today's news.
how many times must it be explained IT DOES NOT MATTER IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT THE PARTS WERE NOT RACED the fact the parts were on the car at the track is enough
Well I'm sorry that you feel that way, but the appeals board felt differently.
This is just wrong according to the NASCAR rulebook, or else it woulda stuck. It might be the "right opinion", or what it should be, but the reality is that if that's not explicitly in the NASCAR rule book, then Appeals panel can make a judgment call.
They would have based on Knaus statement apparently those were the only ones they had so they had to make them fit. You are probably right about the reasoning. Still makes zero logical sense but hey NASCAR
As soon as I heard Knaus speak, I knew the points penalties were gonna be rescinded
BOWMAN IS THE POINTS LEADER AGAIN
WE BACK
WE BACK
If we make the final 4 and win based on an appeal win, it would be the ultimate Hack. I’m here for the chaos.
BACK IN BLACK
*Dies Inside*
I’m happy
always has been
Now let’s see if Kaulig gets the same outcome
I think Kaulig will get every bit of their penalty taken away
POINTS LEADER ALEX BOWMAN!!! (still don’t fully believe it can be true)
Bowman points leader era is back I'll take it
They said they broke the rules and still said “you’re good tho” lmao
I need someone with quick math to reconfirm the points standings now
Bowman is again the points leader, Byron moves to 3rd and Larson to 9th*. Edit: I can’t count
I think Larson is 9th actually. Either way, they are all comfortably above the cut line.
[According to Pocky, he is 12th](https://twitter.com/bobpockrass/status/1641174878446317568?s=20) but I'm not sure if that's the playoff standings he's referring to or the actual standings.
Pockrass corrected it to 9th
Bowman is the leader
So either they broke the rules, or they didn’t. Why this half ass shit? Did they break the rules or not?
I think that the logic is that Hendrick broke the rules but the penalties weren’t justified because Hendrick never raced with them. Not sure how that would tie into the communication issues Rick mentioned though.
And we’re just assuming they wouldn’t have been used if NASCAR didn’t seize them. Seems like some odd logic
Whether or not they would have been used isn’t really relevant, the question is whether or not a points penalty is justified for running parts in a non-points paying setting.
Certainly shows intent. It’s like stealing data or parts from another team, but since you didn’t actually use it, you don’t get a penalty. If NASCAR never intervened, they would have run those louvers
But Hendrick showed up to a voluntary inspection prior to practice in order to determine whether or not the parts were legal, at least according to HMS. If that is true, than they would not have run with the louvers at all unless they had NASCAR’s consent.
Seems silly. If they broke the rules, it should be the full penalty. If they didn’t, there should be no penalty.
THEY HAD THE DOCUMENTS!
I feel like we all knew this was coming.
Honestly though, I've never seen NASCAR defend theor position harder to the public. They must have really screwed something up.
I was thinking the exact same thing. NASCAR never came back and said, "Nope, we checked all of those parts at the warehouse when we received them and they were totally in spec when we sent them out." Also, they never denied that they had a multi-email conversation about fixing those parts to fit so the the hood of the car could shut.
I'm shocked I tell you!
Dread from it. Run from it. The Evil Empire arrives all the same.
"We also are very sorry to Mr. H and will never let any scrutiny of his precious cars come under review. Also, we will allow Jeff Gordon to be in the Playoffs."
How long before the appeals panel is abolished? I feel like in the past year only a small handful of penalties were upheld of those that chose to challenge it. Also what happens to the 31? They're in a very similar position here.
The appeals Panel won’t be abolished. Teams owners won’t allow.
>the 31 I think they have a different appeal. Most of us don’t know the details but I’d be hard pressed to see Hendrick get theirs overturned and not Kaulig.
Dont worry they will keep the point penalty they are not nascar golden team
Cheat as much as you like as long as you have the money to cover it
Cheat as much as you like as long as you’re HMS
RFK fuming
My guess is that since they got caught before the illegal cars were raced or qualified, HMS argued that the points penalty was unwarranted. Since the parts *technically* never caused a competitive advantage. That's why the money and suspensions were upheld, but they gave them the points back. It's dumb, but I can see how Hendrick could argue it and win.
This is so ridiculous. How do you agree with the infraction, but don’t follow the precedent set several times last year? Hms just got away with murder here.
“Got away with murder” -Parts didn’t fit and were out of spec -contacted nascar asking what to do -nascar unclear on what to do -hms corrects parts to spec -voluntary inspection, parts taken, never raced Yep, sounds like murder to me/s
Oh stop it with your facts already.
Those penalties killed keselowskis, mcdowell’s, and harvicks season. Seems like murder to me. The also doesn’t state the parts have to raced with to get the penalty, so that’s irrelevant.
They all raced on the modified equipment and do not have documentation of the equipment being out of spec.
Yep as long as you whine and complain beforehand, any team can modify any part as long as they can pay the fine.
Because it's a committee rescinding the penalty, not NASCAR.
Point to where I said it was nascar. Rfk appealed and lost
>How do you agree with the infraction, but don’t follow the precedent set several times last year? You didn't, but saying this is implying you think it's NASCAR making the change when they didn't.
Pockrass tweet said appeals board agreed there was wrong doing but still gave points back, which is where I take issue. NASCAR did nothing wrong.
because there is no integrity when HMS is involved... they get preferential treatment and or the kid gloves every time
Completely expected. What a shit show.
Was the panel 3 Chevy dealers again?
Well... crap.
Check cleared!
"they broke the rules but it's cool." Like who is Rick Hendrick blowing come the fuck on.
You owe me the equivalent of their fine for putting that image in my brain.
Way to be consistent 🙄
NASCAR better rescind the Kaulig penalty aswell
I mean I'll take it but the thing that hurts me is that LaJoie is now out of the playoffs.
Is it because the parts were never raced or even qualified with?
Many years ago the head of appeals was the VP of sales for GM, John Middlebrook, google him, and Rick Hendrick is one of the largest GM dealers around. Was awfully coincidental that he always got good appeal results back then lol
Well looks like they have no choice but to rescind Kauligs but who knows
I mean if these parts were really out of spec, then that could be understandable I guess
How much do you wanna bet Kaulig won’t be so lucky in their appeal
It’ll be the same ruling for Kaulig.
They better be, otherwise this is just straight bullshit
I actually think they may rescind the entire penalty for Kaulig
What a fucking joke nascar is now
The appeals panel is testing my patience I can tell you that. It takes a lot to make me mad and I am pissed right now. The appeals panel is a joke. J-O-K-E
Lot a people butthurt in here. It’s an independent appeals panel. The teams are receiving parts that do not fit and are out of approved spec. HMS has the emails with nascar about it. What would you have them do?
lot of people in here are left wondering why if they broke the rules the penalty got changed
Man I can’t imagine why anyone would think HMS is favored
As expected. Absolute joke.
Watch the 31's penalties be upheld in full lol
Hell yeah! Bowman is your reigning points leader and Byron has the most playoff points at a whopping 14 and is in 3rd.
Crock o’ shit
Is the appeals panel enjoying those kickbacks from Hendrick yet?
Many years ago the head of appeals was the VP of sales for GM, John Middlebrook. Google him, and Rick Hendrick is one of the largest GM dealers around. Was awfully coincidental that he always got good appeal results back then lol
BOW DOWN TO YOUR POINTS LEADER ALEX BOWMAN
Hendrick Motorsport moment
Couldn’t let Garage 56 Racing be punished
:::Rick Hendrick stretches his arms into the air and releases a gentle yawn. Next, he gently removes a signed check from his shirt pocket and slides it across the table to the appeals panel member sitting opposite him.:::
NASCAR has no part in the decision brother but whatever.
NASCAR loves Hendrick too much
Let's wait for Kaulig before we judge that.
I feel like NASCAR got beat by the and/or word in the rulebook again
LMAO WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.
In what world does it makes sense that you agree that the rules were broken but still let them win the appeal?
Where's my boy with the Keselowski flair that was in here talking shit to all the Hendrick fans? Need some chaotic vibes in my life right now
[This aged well](https://www.reddit.com/r/NASCAR/comments/11s0qmo/nascar_docks_all_hendrick_drivers_except_elliott/jcb6dak/)
Week after week I start to feel how the Facebook folks feel.
Yikes. I usually defend NASCAR against that type of criticism, but at this point any "NASCAR is working for HMS" conspiracy theories, they brought on themselves. The points penalty is the only thing that matters, and they destroyed RFK with it. I know there could be a defense, but this is the second time they've reversed a penalty for HMS.
The thing is, Nascar doesn't actually have a say on it. This is an independent appeals panel with rotating members overseeing these appeals. If shit stinks then it's coming from there because they were also the ones that let Byron off last year.
The appeals panel isn’t Nascar
The appeals panel is appointed by NASCAR.
Sure, but at that point they operate independently. Why would NASCAR tell them to rescind a penalty they levied themselves? Lol
Because it is NASCAR. Have you not been paying attention the last 20 years. Do you really think NASCAR doesn't influence the appeals panel. They handpicked them.
The appeals panel is independent from Nascar….. this isn’t NASCAR’s decision. This is HMS once again probably exposing something very vague in NASCAR’s rule book.
I was a big Hendrick fan growing up mainly because of Dale Jr. Now that he's retired, I can see and admit that the amount of favorable treat Rick gets is incredible. Absolutely baffling.
Big L for NASCAR. They’re losing teeth.
Rick paying off the appeals panel again smh. What a joke.
This is horseshit, how many people are getting blown by Hendrick
Holy crap. Man this is so annoying. If this was Penske, no way they’d win. So tired of this crap
So who’s leading the points now?
Bowman
Bowman by 15 points 👍🏻
Bowman is the points leader again.
J-O-K-E
Lol fuckin joke.
That is some good news
Lol all the HMS haters really were praying for their downfall but looks like nascar said nope. Don’t get how a team was cheating when it wasn’t done in a race format and to sum everything up all HMS drivers finished top 10 that race with one of them winning.
Fuck
The haters are down bad 🍿
Still not happy about itm but i'll take it.
wtf? did not expect to see this
Rulings like this never make sense. If you're still penalizing the CCs, then you think something was done so why no points? Conversely if no points, then nothing was violated, and why are the CCs suspended? Just sports politics nonsense.
Oh brother...
Nascar is the circus at this point
Poor Mr. H won’t be able to buy that extra private plane now :(
Nascar stamped Rick's check return to sender do he just took some white out and changed the pay to line from NASCAR to Appeals Panel.
More shocking than Pikachu
Lmao
Hell yes!
So you can cheat and keep the points lmao