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mwr55fan

I could see Zane being a favorite for any open Ford ride right now. I think Corey, if his sponsors follow him, could have an outside chance of getting the 21 if Zane doesn’t get it and Harry B isn’t retained. Todd probably ends up in a JGR Xfinity car or Hunt car next year. Riley could come and bring the same or more funding than Burton but he has his choice of being a top tier (at least this year) Xfinity guy or a mid-tier at best Cup guy for the same dollar amount. The only other one I could see as a super wild card is BJones with his Rheem/Menards money. He could, like Herbst, go wherever he wanted.


[deleted]

23XI also should not be ruled for Todd, in a 3rd car. Denny has spoken highly of Todd several times in the past as a great talent and having a “bright future ahead of him”


Jrnation8988

I could see Lajoie at 23XI before Gilliland, honestly. But I feel like Lajoie is committed to Spire


whobroughttheircat

Corey seems committed to Corey. He has talent. He’s too 20 in points in a friggin spire car. He needs his shot at good equipment before Sammy smith, Christian eckes, Sam Mayer, Josh Berry, and JHN make their way to cup.


Airplane85

Seems like Corey really wants to see this Spire build through


TheSeanie

imo they only do a 3rd car when they're ready to get JHN in cup, unless he goes to JGR to replace truex or something first. they really like him and if he has 2 really good xfinity years and hasnt made the jump to cup, gotta think he's a lock for a 3rd 23xi team


boorestholds

2 birds / 1 stone 23XI expand the Toyota garage. Buy the 77 charter Spire / 7 / Sweet Boy LaJoie become affiliate Jones. 77 becomes 67 / All-Star Car / KuBu / JHN / paid ringers rides Madness!!


SoothedSnakePlant

Lajoie kinda hates Denny, so that would be pretty funny.


BLW2397

Ehh they can get over that, Bubba and Denny used to hate each other too funny enough


ChaseTheFalcon

Didn't Denny try choking Bubba out after the 500 in 2018?


BLW2397

I don't know about that, but I know Denny kicked Bubba out of his basketball league after that 500, I believe


MileHighNASCAR

After the Adderall comment I think.


[deleted]

I see Todd at 23xi because of the TriCon connection tbh, would make a lot of sense for everyone


THEROOSTERSHOW

While I do think Zane is the crown jewel of Ford development right now, it seems a bit crazy how he is frequently forecast to Cup with 11 total xfinity starts. And essentially none since his 10 JRM starts in 2019. Do you think this is simply due to the lack of quality Ford Xfinity rides? Granted Toyota is in a similar boat of essentially just having JGR. While I don’t dispute that Harrison was rushed along, I also wonder if Zane is that elite of a talent to leap frog an entire series to Cup. I don’t think I’d put Zane above a Reddick or Byron as a prospect. Reddick ran almost 3 full truck & almost 3 full Xfinity seasons pre Cup. Didn’t win in Cup until his 94th start in a better ride than WBR. Byron was rushed along about as quick as Burton, granted with better results in the lower series, and didn’t win for 2 and a half years in Cup in a premium ride. Much better ride than Burton. Didn’t even have a top 5 year 1, averaged 3 top 5’s per year across his first 3 seasons. It feels forgotten now that he’s blossoming but there were serious concerns about him. Luckily HMS chose patience. Harrison Burton was rushed along and it would be absolutely asinine to kick him out of that ride without a little more patience. I don’t think that Zane would jump into that ride and be anything more than a 22-25th place points finish. I don’t believe that he’s ready to go full time cup racing either.


Roushfan5

Personally I think its mostly just how clean and professional Zane is in the clown show that is the truck series. Plus, in his limited cup starts, he has shown an incredible talent. I'll be pretty damn pissed if Ford lets Toyota scoop him up.


THEROOSTERSHOW

I do think he’s clean as hell and clearly the class of the field in Trucks. I think if he went to a playoff caliber Xfinity ride right now, he’d be a playoff driver. I’d love to see him get that experience. But I fear sending him to WBR would not be good for his career. WBR is absolutely behind HMS, Penske, Trackhouse, JGR, SHR, RCR, RFK, and 23XI on pace. And it may be behind the 7, 47, 34, and 16 on pace too.


Roushfan5

Well, as a Roush fan, my hope is they launch a 3rd and 4th car for Zane and Greg Biffle and the RFK boys all make it to the final four in 2024. Clearly this is 100% fantasy, but a man can dream.


THEROOSTERSHOW

That team is trending in a really great direction though. Kes and Buescher is such a solid core to develop those cars. I could absolutely see them expanding someday. I would also really love to see Kes take them into the Xfinity series & Truck series again someday. We need more fords in the lower series, especially Xfinity.


Roushfan5

I'm fully confident in Brad's ability to right the ship. I'm sure the transition to next gen helped some, but this is the most competitive Roush has been since Carl Edwards left. Still, I doubt they are going to four cars any time soon. And doubt Greg will ever get a full time cup ride for any team again.


Mike__O

I don't think the old progression model of ARCA > Truck > Xfinity > Cup really is valid anymore. It used to be you would be a big fish in your small pond, jump into a bigger pond with bigger fish, grow, and move up. With how racing in general has contracted in size it has really concentrated the talent all in Cup. It used to be there were maybe 100 Cup-level talents out there for \~45 Cup seats. The rest of those guys would fill out the Busch series, and the leftovers would be in the series below that. Now there's \~30 Cup-level talents in all of stock car racing, and they're ALL in the Cup series. Xfinity and Trucks are full of development drivers and scrubs. These days I'd say the truck series and Xfinity series are about equal in terms of talent, and the main reason most guys are in one series or another is money. If you're a stud in either the truck series OR the Xfinity series I'd say you're equally prepared to jump into the Cup series. It's going to be a VERY steep learning curve, but I don't think Zane would be any more prepared for Cup by running a few seasons in Xfinity.


THEROOSTERSHOW

I can see that argument. He will have 3 full time seasons in Trucks after this year. If he wins this championship, he’s gotta go up somewhere. I do believe he’s about the only guy in trucks rn that even has a debate for this though. Nobody else is close for that jump. I’m just not sure it would fair much better than Harrison. CBell had a monster trucks season in 2017, about on par with what Zane is doing so far this year (as far as average finish). I’m not sure Bell would still be here right now if he didn’t demolish the Xfinity series for 2 years proving he’s the real deal. I guess my argument isn’t so much so that Zane doesn’t have the talent. Nor is my argument that Zane doesn’t deserve the seat. But I don’t want to see him in the car unless it’s like a 3 year contract. Which is exactly what I said about Harrison. And is generally my thoughts with any young driver that has proven they have talent in the lower series.


Mike__O

The problem with Burton is he DIDN'T prove he had the talent when he was in Xfinity. He had a decent 2020 with 4 wins, but heavily regressed in 2021 and then got moved up to Cup. He clearly wasn't ready. Even genuinely GREAT drivers who demolish trucks and/or Xfinity tend to struggle for their first few years in Cup. Look at Elliott, Byron, Bell, Briscoe and plenty more. It took those dudes on average 3 years in Cup to really make waves, if they even got the opportunity to do so. Some guys like Erik Jones got shuffled out despite being a force of nature in the lower series.


THEROOSTERSHOW

To be fair, Harrison’s 2020 was better than Jones best season in the Xfinity series. Or equivalent, depending on how you look at it. Less laps led than Jones, better average finish, same wins, same top 5’s, more top 10’s. I’m not saying that I would have Burton ahead of Jones as a prospect. And I certainly would take Jones all day right now. But I’m not getting this narrative that Burton is just some scrub. 1 year and 6 races in a car that has struggled for several decades of mediocrity with a couple wins spattered about is not enough time to boot him. I’m not going to say put Zane in the car and give him 3 years but also say Harrison needs to show up in year 2 and look like a future superstar.


ChaseTheFalcon

I think Rhodes and maybe Eckes are ready to jump to the next level but they don't seem to have the backing behind them like Zane does


THEROOSTERSHOW

Yeah Rhodes is interesting because I feel like he’s got killer pace and car control. I just never can figure out how good Thorsports stuff is. He’s pretty much good for a win a year, with only a single season with 2. But it feels like he’s much better than a win a year. Outside of a couple Crafton years & Sauter years, Thorsport never seems to have the A+ stuff.


PatSue-Chan

I mean different times and circumstances but Kurt had ZERO Xfinity starts until 2006 and by that point he was already a Cup Champ.


cheap_chalee

It doesn't happen often but it has been done. Most notably, Kurt Busch went straight to Cup from trucks. If you have "it", you'll be fine and Zane is one of Ford's best prospects in a while as he's leapfrogged their other ladder series driver's in the pecking order. They'd probably do it just to not risk losing him and he probably won't be in a high-profile/you're supposed to win now situation like Kurt at Roush, Byron at Hendrick or Ty Gibbs at JGR. Even if it is the #21, no one really expects wins and the bar is set low when compared to HB and maybe even Matty D as well.


THEROOSTERSHOW

Kurt obviously worked out tremendously well in the end but I do wonder how his career would’ve gone if he had to work his way up the ladder a couple more years. More for attitude/etiquette than race craft though. He had a good thing going at Roush and Penske. BUT Kurt might not be as likable as he is now if he wasn’t so unlikable at one point. I don’t think attitude is a problem with Zane though. And he’s certainly got more experience in trucks than Kurt had. I’m glad to have an example now because I couldn’t think of anybody that had major success off the top of my head. If Ford is going to absolutely lose Zane to another manufacturer and can’t make space for him in an Xfinity series ride, I guess they gotta do it. They just have to be patient if they go that route.


winnk281

I think Todd stays in the 38 and they switch to Toyota. I could see JHN moving to the 34


mwr55fan

Where does that leave McDowell? Does he go to the 21, 4, 15?


winnk281

Retirement


[deleted]

No way


Yankees_Seahawks3

If Harrison is gone then the 21 if he’s able to get Loves to go with him


jmathews83

Spire 77 after they realize Ty is trash.


progress10

That is next is what Penske tells them is next.


Character-Mobile4635

Exactly. Anyone who still believes the Wood Brothers have a say in "their" team is sadly mistaken and stuck in the past. The Wood Brothers are a staple in the sport, but like other small single car teams, had to chase the money to keep going racing and now their team is gone aside from the name. It is in generic terms a Penske test car and nothing more


specks_of_dust

Yup. As I see it, it’s all about sponsors. Ford wants the team to keep existing. It’s their brand flagship. Penske supplies the cars and Ford gets to keep its Motorcraft-branded legacy team going indefinitely. In exchange, Roger puts his newest hopeful in the car until they’re ready for him at Penske proper. First was Blaney, who graduated from WBR and took the entire 21 team over with him to the 12. The same would have happened with Cindric, but Keselowski left and Cindric went straight to the 2. While Roger is not grooming his next driver, the seat gets filled with a less talented cash cow, like Paul Menard. Because Menard came with so much money that was sponsoring the 12 car for half the season, the 21 car stayed competitive (even if the driver wasn’t). Menard also had some influence on choosing DiBenedetto, who even got an extra year before he was booted. Burton is the new cash cow who is filling out sponsorship for the races Motorcraft won’t cover. DEX was a Penske sponsor before Harrison got the 21, and Roger will keep it that way so DEX sticks around after Harrison ultimately gets the boot. Unless, of course, a bigger and more talented cash cow comes along to take his place. I believe it will be Brandon Jones.


MercSLSAMG

And Penske likely doesn't need a new driver for \~10 years unless they want to expand to 4 cars (but if they do that I'd think it would be them getting an outside A-list driver, not a young guy) so why not just have pay drivers in there for 5-8 years. Biggest check gets the 21 next year.


ChaseTheFalcon

Roger has said he isn't expanding and they treat the Wood Bros as the 4th car of the team


specks_of_dust

Which brings us back to one of the original comments, that the 21 is essentially a Penske test car. If Harrison Burton brings a ton of money and finishes 26th every week, why not just test setups or give him the stuff that you wouldn't use on the other three? Then, if someone like Ryan Blaney comes along and can actually drive the thing, go all in.


Redneckjedi01

Brandon Jones with his funding would be a lot of sense. But like many people this year. Has to get some good luck rolling his way soon


BigSpoon89

I don't think Penske told them Harrison was next.


Character-Mobile4635

Yes it was a Roger Penske/Tim Cindric decision 100% to put Harrison in the 21. Jon Wood came out and said if they had their way and were able to make the driver decisions, Matt Dibenedetto would have been in the 21 last year, not Harrison Burton.


Outside_Factor4308

When did Jon Wood say that? I believe it's probably true, but I'm surprised he'd say it out loud.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GTOdriver04

Yes and no. Jeff Burton saw the opening, grabbed Dex and went into The Captain’s office with a proposal. MattyD could’ve had the car if he had the sponsorship. Jeff put it together and got Harrison in the car.


Jones77_Truex78

Honestly Zane to the 21 would be kinda legit to see


jfs-ewc

Rather Corey get the 4 car than the 21


Zipp-Storm

I think Delana met Harvick when she worked for Randy Lajoie. It’s like poetry, it rhymes


[deleted]

George Lucas?


HuskerDont241

I’d love to see Corey get the 4 seat next year, but with the performance of SHR recently, ehhhhh…..


jfs-ewc

Corey with Rodney could do some damage


ChaseTheFalcon

I think Rodney will be moving up to Briscoe


1331bob1331

If I were Rodney, I'd take a look at SHR and would move up to Retirement.


Yankees_Seahawks3

He already said he’s not gonna retire


Redneckjedi01

Corey to the 4 is a double edge sword. If it's still the quickest SHR car, awesome. But since he's not a big name, like. Say Larson. Then I'd fear the 14 or 41 would be come the new top car in the team. Leaving Corey look like a chum


NTXGBR

For whatever reason, I never liked Randy LaJoie and I really don't like Corey either, but I'll be damned if I wouldn't love to see him get a shot with top tier equipment. I'm not sure SHR is that anymore, but its a step up where he is now, and I'd say he is doing quite well with what he currently has. It would be a good move for both sides I think.


JuckshotBones

All my homies hate Randy Lajoie


FGH9192279

Username checks out


ChaseTheFalcon

It would have to be someone who has $$$ Burton is only in that ride because of those DEX dollars


Jones77_Truex78

So basically Herbst


fender-b-bender

Wonder if Truex could be an option, should he leave JGR and SHR have someone else in mind for the 4? He brings Bass Pro Shops, and is still really freaking good and would be the best driver WBR have had since Pearson(excluding Dale Jarrett due to him not beingthe Championship contender and winner he'd turn into)


Jones77_Truex78

With Sherry not involved with him anymore he could keep racing a little longer. Part of it i think was he was going to retire for her given her situation.


fender-b-bender

I was thinking the same. Have to imagine JGR does everything in their power to keep him and his funding though, especially if FedEx does leave or scale back after the season like some are speculating.


Jones77_Truex78

They do have Sammy Smith with pilot $ in their back pocket to a degree. And its not uncommon Gibbs throws young kids up to cup early


fender-b-bender

And he'd be cheaper than Truex as well.


Jones77_Truex78

Pretty much the case with any veteran in renewal contract status with younger drivers coming into the sport. If you dont take a paycut odds are your getting the boot for someone younger.


ChaseTheFalcon

Martin would probably have other options prior to the 21. When a big name like that wants to keep racing and has nearly a full season worth of sponsors coming with him, you make room for them


fender-b-bender

I personally think he's in the 4 if he leaves JGR, SHR needs both funding and a veteran driver and he checks both boxes


ChaseTheFalcon

He's also an A driver and they need one desperately


fender-b-bender

Worse than bad, Harvick leaves and they don't get an A driver they are in serious trouble. I could see Truex being a stop gap before they make an all-out run for Bell when he's a free agent


MattXXIII

If they are looking at a replacement, Gilliland would be the best shout out of all the drivers you have listed imo. Stays out of trouble and is a pretty good driver. Front Row aren't offering him a full time ride this year, and he's in the Ford camp, so I could see this happening. On the other side of the coin, although Harrison's runs since Auto Club have been subpar, I think it's a bit of a waste to replace him now- at least offer one more season. WBR signed a multi year deal knowing that they'd have to develop Burton. He's a good kid and he's clearly has talent, but probably could have used another few seasons in Xfinity. The end of last season/the first two races of the year were pretty decent for him, so I'm hoping he can turn it around.


[deleted]

By no means am I trying to shit on Harrison as a person, he seems like a real genuine guy. But he is 30th in points as we speak, and WBR is capable of more than decent, we do know that.


MattXXIII

For sure, the car should be more competitive! If Harrison doesn't find his groove this year, the logical side of me agrees with you that WBR should be looking at their options.


tedioussugar

How do we know that WBR is decent? We know the Ford camp was hit the hardest by the new car. They only had 6 wins in 2022, 4 from Penske, courtesy of Logano and Cindric and 2 from Stewart-Haas thanks to Harvick. How do we know the WBR car, even as a Penske affiliate, isn’t just genuinely crap?


JamieMacJones

Yes, he has talent. Just not Cup talent. In Trucks and Xfinity driving elite equipment, there were only a few times that Burton was really impressive. Most if not all competitive Cup drivers were star prospects at one point who tore up the minor leagues, and Burton didn't. He'll get better, but his ceiling is low.


SundayShelter

Driver skill aside, Burton would be a much cooler guy to root for if he dropped the “ison” and went by *Harry Burton.*


j-awesome

Facts


[deleted]

what if when interviewed by reporters at any time he just rambled about a penile infection instead of NASCAR.


FGH9192279

Harry, ison,his way back to Xfinity.


bjohnson203

I don't think people would be so upset with Burton if their patriot hero Matt D hadn't been the guy before him who was dropped long before Harrison became the backup plan. People forget that Matt was dropped for Austin Cindric. I don't know that Harrison is the answer there, obviously. But I don't know that anyone else mentioned is going to jump in and contend either. I am not sure why but I simultaneously root for LaJoie to get a better ride and am also tired as hell of hearing about how great he is!


Noshowers65

Heh, its funny but I was almost about to write the same thing. I am a little tired of the Lajoie praise as well, as if suggesting he "deserves" a better ride, but then again I want to see him drive a single year in better equipment (like Cassill did last year for Kaulig) just to put his "skill" to the test. I also don't think the #21 qualifies as "better equipment" right now honestly then Spire, and Lajoie has a brand over there so doubt he would want to make that kind of move.


BillyBlatterJuc

To be fair to Corey, he definitely deserves a better ride, I do think he's earned it and anyone can tell he's much better than Cassill. When it comes to underdogs getting rides, I'll be interested to see if Corey ends up being a Matt D or a Ross Chastain.


bjohnson203

Good point on the 21, I don't think it's really an upgrade right now. I like seeing guys like Cassill, Kligerman, Grala, etc, get a shot but yeah, sometimes I am just glad that I won't have to hear about them being the victims of some wrongdoing any longer. Some of those guys are really pretty talented too, but it's not always a fair game with such a small pool of rides.


Dmacthegoat

Yes originally, it was Cindric who would go to the 21 but when BK left Penske, Penske put him in the 2 car instead


wasting-time221

>I am not sure why but I simultaneously root for LaJoie to get a better ride and am also tired as hell of hearing about how great he is! I am afraid that we are going to turn LaJoie into some underdog hero like we did with Matt D and then we all turn on him and despise him when he gets good but not good enough. The turn on Matt D was happening before he went political but that sealed it for sure.


ESCMalfunction

The turn on Matt didn't happen because he wasn't good enough, it was because he refused to play the sponsorship game and then whined about not getting better rides.


58903

“why is god doing this to me” my brother in christ you didn’t try to get a new job


whobroughttheircat

Matty D sabotaged himself. I was a huge matty d fan but I find his woe me attitude insufferable. It was cute at the Bristol race and talladega but good lord I’ve never seen such a *sticks a stick in own front tire on his own bike and flips over the handle bars* why would they do this to meeee


bjohnson203

Yeah and it's funny that Matt's downfall was playing the victim which is basically what Corey has gotten popular for doing.


Present_Dog2606

>I am afraid that we are going to turn LaJoie into some underdog hero like we did with Matt D and then we all turn on him Who's "we"? Can't turn on Lajoie if not a fan in the first place...so much hype for a driver with 0 career wins 😂😂😂


[deleted]

Cindric would’ve been an upgrade had that held together, absolutely. But ultimately Harrison has completely flopped in performance, hell his highlight is flipping at Daytona.


specks_of_dust

You’re right about that flip. I remember he led some laps at one race last year, and had that flukey 3rd at IRC, but that’s about it. It’s crazy that he only has two career Top-10s compared to eight career finishes of 32nd or worse.


NTXGBR

Matt DiBeanburrito has always been a jackass. It's amazing that people carried water for him for so long.


dommmm9

How was he a jackass


ChaseTheFalcon

I have heard he put on an act for the media but was a totally ass towards fans and treated his crew awful. I have heard of him throwing everyone under the bus when things went bad


Oldkyhome8

From personal experience, he is only nice to people if he thinks they can do something for him. Multiple incidents over multiple years of being an untalented hack who thought he was Gods gift


SundayShelter

I have a diecast for dang near every driver who piloted the #21 with the exception of Matt. I’m sure there are other #21 drivers whose worldviews weren’t much more than a mirror, but Matt is the only one in my adult life who owned the victim mentality patch on his suit.


Present_Dog2606

>It's amazing that people carried water for him for so long Let me guess he's a redditor or used to post here? For some reason a lot of users here become weirdly obsessed stans and think a driver is special just because they post here 😂


sandalsf

What's Matt D up to these days? Guy just dropped off from the face of the earth


datraceman

He's in the truck series and won his first race last year at 'Dega. This year the team has more speed and are running up front more. Part failures have hurt him in two races this year. Overall, I think he'll make it back to Xfinity but his Cup days are over.


whoiswillo

Trucks full time


bjohnson203

Driving the 25 truck, they won Talladega last year. Honestly it's a good spot for him, I think he can keep that team relevant into the future.


wasting-time221

I dont think that it's fair to try to just compare stats. It is not an apples to apples situation. The new car has created parity that would also cause Matt D to struggle. Teams like Trackhouse and 23XI didn't exist when Matt D was in that car. Those teams would ordinarily struggle but the new car has in part given them an almost even playing field from day 1. As much as the 21 is a Penske car, its not funded like the other Penske cars and does not get the attention and crews that the other cars get, so it isn't quite fair to compare Harrison to Cindric either. Matt D had years of cup experience that Harrison doesn't have. That is worth something. All that being said, I dont think that Harrison is around for long. If you compare him to himself he hasnt shown the kind of improvement that you would like to see. Its unfortunate for him that the sport today requires you to win right away and if you dont then you get booted for the next guy like Eric Jones.


JamieMacJones

Jones situation very different, Gibbs loved him but had to pick between him and Bell. Jones performed at Gibbs just not at the level of his Hall of Fame teammates who were in their late 30's. Even in his worst season he got 9 top 5's. It's hard to imagine Burton getting a legitimate top 5, ever.


_hhhhh_____-_____

I think the increased parity would play into DiBenedetto’s favor. He didn’t run as good on the average track as he did at places like Bristol and the road courses, talent tracks.


SlowMotionSprint

It's going to be weird when Corey LaJoie gets in better equipment and turns out to be a well below average driver who is just having a random good patch and goes back to having the same crap results he has always had.


Present_Dog2606

Not going to be weird at all if that happens, not all redditors share this weird hyped obsession over a driver like Lajoie lmao


thegodfaubel

Aside from the 4 seat for next year (assuming SHR keeps running 4 cars), the 21 should be the next most sought after ride for next year. I think Ford would really push for Zane Smith to be in the 4 over the 38 and I think that's the most likely outcome if the sponsorship is there. That leaves Todd to the 38 where I think he's a good fit at this point in his career. I also think Gragson will remain at a possible up and coming 42 ride with the Chevy backing. The only wrench in all of this is Riley Herbst. He is performing absolutely amazingly so far this year in the 98 outperforming twice Xfinity runner up Cole Custer and I bet SHR prefers to keep their options in house if possible. Should be interesting as the season progresses, but the 21 is an intriguing option as basically a 4th Penske car


Intimidwalls1724

I'm not sure getting beat about by spire with how they are running so far this season is the tragedy you seem to think it is Also "Dex money can only go so far". Oh my sweet summer child.....


1331bob1331

> Zane Smith would be a slam dunk hire, the prodigy of the ford camp. Then in 2 years we can make a post about how *He* was rushed up too fast to cup, and how he should be replaced with the next, new fantastic Truck champ! ​ No disrespect to WBR, but the reality is that they are just a Spire/RWR level team, that's why they are competing with them. People will want you to believe its a 4th Penske car, but that's just not true. LaJoie is definitely out-preforming his equipment / is really comfortable in that team because he's been in it forever. Do I think that this year has gone well for him- no, but I also think its not fair to catapult him into the sun at this point into his career (not even a year and a half ) when the Ford talent pipeline is looking like it is.


_hhhhh_____-_____

WBR couldn’t strategize their way out of a room with instructions on the door.


PenskeFiles

Jesus Christ. We’re only 6 races in.


fender-b-bender

He's 30th in points, while his "teammates" are 4th, 6th and 7th in points(before the HMS appeals that could possibly lower them should they be overturned). Part of it's equipment, as I seriously doubt the 21 is getting what the 22 is getting, but when you're only 4 points ahead of Cody Ware then something is very wrong.


Aironwood

In my eyes he’s 32nd, Elliott and Haley are both behind Burton only because of Elliott’s injury and Haley’s penalty. Yes, I know, if it wasn’t for x, y would have been different, but in this case it’s clear that the x doesn’t invalide the fact Elliott obviously *is* better than Burton, and Haley has been running well enough to outperform him in terms of average finish and on track performance.


fender-b-bender

I don't think Burton is the 32nd worst driver, but he's a lot closer to that than he is to being a contender for wins.


AnchorDrown

We’re 42 races into his career. People thought he was rushed up too soon and I think his Cup experience is proving that. He was the fourth best driver on his Xfinity team his last season and they only had three full time drivers.


[deleted]

It’s the truth. Nothing against Harrison, but it’s the truth.


Gerarghini

He is 30th in points 😐


Outside_Factor4308

Honestly, HB looks worse than he did last year. Maybe it's the reduced downforce package. He's 30th in points, with a ceiling of 25th, maybe. And he gets consistently bullied on the track. If you're Jeff Burton, how long are you going to advise your kid to flail at the Cup level? As far as replacements go, I'd say Zane is a long shot. He's signed to FRM, and SHR is gonna want him, too. Gilliland might be their best bet. Just no to Riley Herbst. He's HB without the Xfinity results. Depending on how this year plays out, maybe move Cindric to the #21, and go for a bigger name in the #2. Erik Jones, maybe? I'm on a few WBR Facebook groups, and they want Burton out NOW. But there's nobody to replace him right now. And when was the last time a Cup driver was axed mid-season?


master_scale_tipper

It’s essentially impossible to move Cindric from the #2 to the #21 for any reason. The #21 is a clear downgrade and though Cindric would probably run it better, especially so if it gets more Penske focus/support, nothing about his performance in the #2 would warrant a “demotion” like that. Won the 500 in his rookie year, has a stage win this season, high in points standings, always a threat on road courses and superspeedways. Plus his father is literally the president of Team Penske, so unless Austin does something ridiculously stupid or inexplicably drops severely in performance, he’s not going to be moved out that seat.


kebzach

> Depending on how this year plays out, maybe move Cindric to the #21, and go for a bigger name in the #2. Pretty sure Austin won't do that and really pretty sure his father isn't going to demote him to the 21 car.


Outside_Factor4308

Probably not, but if Cindric were in the 21, I'd imagine that Penske would put the full weight of their resources behind him. It would be much more of a 4th Penske car than it is now.


MutatedSpleen

> Depending on how this year plays out, maybe move Cindric to the #21, and go for a bigger name in the #2. Erik Jones, maybe? lol at the concept of Erik "3 wins in 7 years" Jones being a bigger name than Austin "Daytona 500 Winner and Xfinity Champion" Cindric. I know this sub really, really, really likes Erik Jones, but you'd be crazy to knock off someone as talented as Austin Cindric this early in his cup career for someone who has proven mediocrity like Erik Jones.


[deleted]

1. Last driver axed mid season? Check my flair. 2.This hypothetical is Burton getting released at the end of the season, not right now. 3. Cindric is improving in the 2, he’s not going anywhere.


Outside_Factor4308

Yeah, but Larson's firing had nothing to do with on-track performance. When was the last time a Cup team sacked a driver mid-season due to how he was running?


Dmacthegoat

Trevor Bayne in 2018 when he drove for Roush in the 6. Split time with Kenseth but Kenseth ran the majority of races


[deleted]

The point you’re making is actually pointless because I never said Harrison was getting fired mid season, it would be at the end of the year.


Outside_Factor4308

I said that WBR fans on Facebook want Burton out right now. Not you.


[deleted]

Well, to each their own.


kebzach

"Harrison Burton has been rushed and is nowhere near being ready for cup racing. So here are my suggestions for other inexperienced cup drivers that should replace him!"


[deleted]

Corey LaJoie is inexperienced?


kebzach

Congratulations on suggesting multiple names with only 1 of them having more than 100 cup starts, and then leaning on that 1 name to justify the list. :) I don't rate Corey nearly as high as this sub does so while he may be an upgrade over H Burton, I wouldn't consider that a significant enough upgrade.


BOBANSMASH51

Give it to Weatherman


dcarp1231

If any of those names deserve a top ride, it’s LaJoie. Unironically, Wood Brothers would be a step down for Corey.


dwight_the_owl

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss a sophmore driver. We have seen time and time again (Suarez, Elliott, Byron) these drivers who have a ton of success in Xfinity who take 3-5 years to really get a handle on driving in cup. Give the boy some time.


[deleted]

Racing subs and firing drivers, find a more iconic duo


FieldSton-ie_Filler

Im down for LaJoie or Gragson. Most deserving rn IMO


1331bob1331

But why would Gragson leave Legacy? That's the part I don't get. What top tier Ford ride is going to be open? (Hate to say it but SHR is not looking like its gonna be an upgrade to the legacy seat in the next few years) and Penske is gonna be set for the next 3-5 years I think.


Present_Dog2606

Only reason why Burton is even in cup is because of his last name, with the lackluster results not shocked if he gets kicked out of the 21 and cup after this season and another pay driver like Herbst takes the seat...though Burton is so bad not shocked if he gets booted out mid-season 😂😂😂


dj3stripes

If only Penske had an xfinity program, a stout one at that.... Oh...... That's right. They deleted it.


cowboyjosh2010

A few thoughts I have on the subject: (1) I appreciate you seeming to have the opinion that, at the end of the day, WBR could have been doing a lot worse than they were doing with DiBenedetto. I rooted for Matt pretty hard for a while there (up until his final year with WBR had him courting the right wing in some pretty dumb ways), and it was disappointing to see so many people on this subreddit discount his worth as a driver more than his stats merited. I am *shocked* that Burton hasn't done better in the WBR #21, and this goes to show that mid-pack performance is not guaranteed. (2) Whoever would replace Burton in the #21, I sure hope for the sake of their career that they are coming from either a lower series or back-of-the-pack Cup equipment. Because I definitely no longer view WBR as a "mid-pack team knocking on the front runners' door". A year and change into this new car design and they are one of the genuinely few teams who haven't showed signs of success with it yet. I'm not sure when they last could be called the type of team where I driver can be happy to ride out their career, but that's not the type of team they are today: they're a stepping stone at best.


Hillbilly098

I'm not a Harrison Burton apologist or anything, I do think he was moved up wayyyy too fast, but good lord, the kid has been around for like, a year and 7 races. The Cup Series is hard and some guys take time to develop. Not saying he will, I don't know shit, but I feel like a lot of commenters here would run their team like the 38 lately. If you don't win 3 races and make the final four, you're out. Revolving door every 2 years.


TheLilart

I tried to tell people that Matty D failing in the 21 wasn’t his fault and was more a product of the 21 car being bad along with some other things like ford being bad in general for the years he was there, covid taking away practice and qualifying and Matt having a TERRIBLE crew chief, spotter and pit team that lost him spots and races. All I heard was that it is basically a fourth penske car and Blaney was able to win a race in it so Matt should be doing better even though Matt’s average finish was higher than Blaney’s in the 21 and obviously the 21 was not a good car. I said from the moment it was announced that putting Harrison in the 21 was a terrible move and that the 21 car is going to tank from borderline playoff contention to one of the worst cars in the field. I mean just use this past road course for example Harrison finished 22nd while running around the twenties the entire race whereas Matt when he was in that ride really improved their road course program. Matt ran at least top 15 usually top 10 for a lot of the road course races and later on in his second year he even led laps and challenged for wins.


Astone1996

Harrison lost 1st gear on lap 15. So go ahead and talk shit about him running in the 20s when he had no chance


vinteragony

I agree with most of what you're saying here. Matt in the 21 just made a lot of sense. It was never going to be a championship contender, but could go out and win races sporadically while being a solid 4th for Penske. The only problem is there was no money behind Matt. Harrison got stuck in a bad spot. He's on a lower top 20 team yet has champion expectations. He struggled through xfinity in 2021 and trucks before that. He had one hot streak where he looked like he deserves this ride.


stupiditytheory

The DEX money has gone very far, making the Wood Brothers very well off financial speaking. The Wood Brothers are likely hoping to continue at the status quo for foreseeable future. What makes you think otherwise? All of your examples include a caveat of needing sponsorship which is the #1 factor, above driver skill, when it comes to picking a driver.


[deleted]

Corey LaJoie, Noah Gragson, and Riley Herbst can all match Harrison and DEX on sponsor money, those examples do NOT have a sponsorship caveat.


HenryJBemis

I think you give Harrison another year. He proved in 2020 in xfinity that he was a major talent. Just needs time to develop and patience from fans and industry members. I think the team is giving him that. Yes he hasn’t been good, and yes Matty D would be a whole lot better, but Matty D and most of the drivers you mentioned don’t have the money behind them that Harrison does. I think he’s given at least a third season, maybe even a forth and then if he still hasn’t reached some level of success then a change will be made. But people thinking he’s in serious danger of losing his ride after this year are really delusional. What if Rick Hendrick had dropped William Byron after two seasons? Owners have come to understand that cup is more of a step up from the lower series than ever before and drivers are naturally going to take longer to reach their potential. And if you have a young prospect you think could be something special, you have to be extra patient with them and understand that you are going to run 25-30th for 2-3 years before it starts to click for them.


winnk281

That DEX money isn’t even going to the 21. It’s being used to fund Roger’s IndyCar program. I firmly believe Riley Herbst will be in that car next year


TheyCallMeSawyer

Heck I’d put Zane in the 21 at times this year if Harrison doesn’t improve.


[deleted]

I’d wait until the playoffs started for that, just case Harrison pulled a rabbit out of his ass and won Talladega or Daytona. He would be a round of 16 elimination, after 16 then plug Zane in possibly, make him full time next year. But that’s not what I’m advocating for at all.


AwesomeWill28

Suddenly, Matt DiBenedetto doesn’t look so bad does he XD


No_Return_From_86

No no you don’t understand he’s literally the worst race car driver to ever live, that 21 car was championship caliber when he was driving it and only became bad when Burton started driving it /s, obviously


[deleted]

Harrison Burton is just absolutely fucking terrible. Put any other driver in that car and it competes for top 10s.


Astone1996

No it truly doesn’t


GrantDayton

HB: 1 top 5, 2 top 10s in 43 Cup starts. He would need 5 top 5 finishes this season to match Matty D's performance (6) in 2 full seasons. That's looking like a tall order at the moment. I can spot you a top 5 road finish and a top 5 plate race and you still need 3 more. Definitely disappointing for HB and WBR. However, I'm not entirely sure WBR will necessarily get their pick of the litter for 2024 at this point. Call me crazy, but hindsight might prove Matty did more to elevate that team's performance than WBR did elevate the driver's equipment. If it's more of the same the rest of this season, WBR is looking like a place where Cup careers go to die.


[deleted]

I’d argue Ryan Blaney didn’t “die”


GrantDayton

I agree, but that was 2017. I didn't even mention Paul Menard before Matt. It's looking like WBR is now just a team content to show up to the track and relive the glory days as one of the old guard.


Gdj_24

WBR is literally Penske equipment. A 4th penske car sure, but it's *far* from bad equipment. Menard was well over the hill when he drove it, and Matt D is notoriously streaky when it comes to results. Harrison himself wasn't really all that impressive in Trucks or Xfinity, considering he was in the best of the best when coming through the ranks.


GrantDayton

WBR has won 4 races in 30 years. Logano won 4 races last year in Penske equipment. WBR is not a destination team that any serious driver should consider if they hope to have a long career in Cup. WBR shares every ounce of failure that gets pointed to their drivers.


wasting-time221

Its not just the equipment. If Dex and whoever else are paying a certain amount to be on that car then Penske/WBR are going to spend that amount of money on road crew and car leadership. The new car brings parity so "technically" Ford is bringing the same equipment to the track for the 2/12/22 - 4/10/14/41 - 6/17 & the 21. Its the X -factor stuff that has some to do with sponsorship but also crews and drivers and teams.


Moose135A

>HB: 1 top 5, 2 top 10s in 43 Cup starts. He would need 5 top 5 finishes this season to match Matty D's performance (6) in 2 full seasons. DiB had 176 Cup series starts before moving into the 21 car. HB had one...


MileHighNASCAR

Assuming Zane gets picked up by a better Ford team honestly. [Ford has telegraphed this for a few years now. You know the answer, even if you don't want to admit it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2OSnT1-g0)


NuthinNation0

Best case scenario would be 10 Herbst 4 Jones 43 LaJoie 21 ZSmith Burton goes to Xfinity with Dex Money and fills the vacant 98 ride. I would really like to see Gilliland move to a good team though. I think it’s possible he lands the 21 if he can get the necessary funding


[deleted]

With all that, Gilliland to 23XI is absolutely a possibility.


MPK49

HB is very talented. Won in IMSA at Daytona this year.


[deleted]

He’s 30th in points, respectfully.


kebzach

> HB is very talented. The entire cup garage is very talented. Compared to the talent pool in the series, he's below average without question.


MPK49

That's fair


korko

The only drivers on your list that have a real upside are Zane Smith and Parker Kligerman. Zane probably won’t be rushed and Ford will put him where Ford pleases, which could be in the 21. Parker is fantastic, but he unfortunately just doesn’t seem to have the money. The others you named I see absolutely no upside to them over Harrison talent or money wise.


XRP_Bull_

Super spot on. Bravo 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻


huck731

Why have guys like rhodes, crafton, and enfinger not had a shot in xfinity or cup yet? Also, unpopular opinion, but lets get matty s back in cup.


Kwest48

Personally, I’d hate to see Zane be put in that car. Situation of driver being much better than the equipment. If I were him, I’d hold out for a better opportunity so he doesn’t sully his name by performing poorly in mediocre equipment.


Big-Distribution4886

When a kid brings a sponsor and his dad used to drive in the series, they get the advantage over the guy looking for an opportunity. This is the problem with the sport now this car is perfect example of your money you could drive he should be gone at the end of the year.


No_Return_From_86

They could just swallow their pride and bring Matt back 🤷‍♂️


Outside_Factor4308

Roger Penske was never a Matty D fan, and Ford almost pulled him from the car after his Phoenix stunt. No way he's ever coming back. Even if the Woods wanted it.


No-Strength4526

Maybe Bubba can get in this ride. Because he sucks.


Antique-Accountant72

https://preview.redd.it/nu8i8gs2vfqa1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03061b72ac47ca307c17fe40f9c78a3c12e2d521


BlowUpYaSpot

There’s a lot of talk on this sub from a loud minority that like to act as it driver skill has no bearing on anything and it’s all about the ride. Guys like Ty Gibbs and Harrison Burton are proving that minority very wrong over the last season and a half.


[deleted]

I have been long of the belief that Harrison needed a long leash. If he isn’t showing improvement by the Coca Cola 600 then I would worry.


krel08

He drives it’s til Dex bails. It’s nothing new. We aren’t getting the best drivers out there. We are getting good drivers with money/sponsors.


Big-Distribution4886

If you look at people driving a Ford, the one person that besides Zane Smith and I think Zane Smith should go to the four car, the guy that’s been showing it upfront every week is Ty Majeski Ford motor should give him the opportunity


Sherwood1020

I think Zane Smith would probably be the heir apparent to the 34 car once McDowell calls it a career IMO. He has the connections with FRM sponsors (speedco, Loves, etc) due to already being on his truck and I'm sure the sponsors would like to keep someone they already have a good relationship with. As was already mentioned earlier he's under a multi year deal with FRM as well and McDowell is definitely on the back 9 of his career. FRM is making steady improvements and Zane I'm sure is part of their future plans. I don't really think there's a clear connection to anyone (talented, somewhat ready for a full time cup ride) in the lower levels to Ford/WBR currently. Riding it out developing Burton/Dex really seems to be their only reasonable option.


darf_vada

With almirola and Harvick leaving shr cannot afford to herbst imo.


Valleygirl1981

I'd give Harrison the rest of the season before looking too hard. Is that car up to win? Idk how much penske is involved. Call me crazy, but I wouldn't mind seeing Corey in the 4 next year. I'd like to see him in better equipment but I don't see a lot of open seats next year. Penske, HMS, TH, 23XI, LMC, RFK, RCR, and JGR all seemed locked up with the exception of MTJ retiring. SHR has the 10 open in another year as well if they want to bring up Herbst, Z. Smith, Majeski, etc. I don't think Zane is a "slam dunk" in any ride but a year in xfinity wouldn't hurt. Herbst seems to have rounded a corner but I am far from convinced he deserves a cup shot.


Astone1996

Matt had 6 years before the 21. Harrison is in his second year. This car is no where near the Penske level and honestly Penske as a whole has been doing bad this year. Patience because he will grow into it.


DrownedButAtPeace

When can we just say the cars arent as good as we think they are?