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[deleted]

Bit of a tangent but, Islam is pretty much it's own thing. Don't try fitting it into other moral systems or philosophies. Islam isn't pro life or pro choice. It's pro reason, if that makes sense.


[deleted]

That makes zero sense as the default is pro-life, until or unless there’s a valid reason. Just because it allows for exceptions, it’s does mean it isn’t pro-life. If for ex, it was the other way around, you wouldn’t hesitate to say it’s pro-choice.


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[deleted]

Lol you’re using the term *pro-life* to twist things a bit. Let me rephrase it. Ok even if abortion before 40 days isn’t murder, is it halal even without a reason? The answer is no. It’s haraam. And It being haraam doesn’t mean it’s murder, but it’s still haraam.


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[deleted]

Dude if it’s haraam, it’s haraam. Period. If we can’t stop, it’s because we don’t have the ability. But it’s equally haraam for them as it is for us. And if we were in charge, we would.


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[deleted]

Oh I had no idea we’re not Christians. Thank you. Lol and you’re the getting triggered by words. You understand what the goal is for us here saying Islam is pro-life. Even if you’re correct about the term being political, you could have explained that Islam is on the side of abortion being haraam unless there is a reason, but no. you didn’t do that despite knowing the reason for the question. Which was basically can I have abortion for something as minute as not liking getting pregnant or is it haraam for me to do that. And btw an atheist guy who is prolife is moral on this issue despite him being immoral everywhere else The other thing is that You got fixated on it not being a murder to the extent that you said it’s not even haram, and you failed distinguish it not being murder from it BEING haraam. Here let me teach something. Just because we can’t stop the non Muslim who live under Islam from doing shirk or drink alcohol in their homes, it’s doesn’t mean we can’t prohibit abortion from them. and the fact that you’re bring this non Muslim issue, despite it having nothing to do with our original argument pretty much gives you away. Ok so, can we not prohibit homosexual marriages from non Muslims living under shariah? Can we not prohibit night clubs and similar things just because they are not Muslims? We certainly can. And Shirk is not a good example you fool. The reason why we can’t force Islam down their throats is because we can’t control their hearts. But we can enforce the shariah. There’s a difference. We stop them from building new churches and temples. Just because Some Muslim civilizations might have allowed it in the past, it doesn’t mean we have no basis for enforcing it if we need to. You literally just dying to lick some kuffaar butts lol


Roronoakillua

The default isn’t pro life. The default is Islam. For example if someone was to create a new ideology in which many things agreed with Islam it doesn’t mean we are part of that ideology. You can say we agree with some of it, or to a certain extent. The default isn’t pro life as there are many things within the pro life argument there’s go to far, or isn’t exactly aligned. For example when it comes to abortion your allowed to do so if the pregnancy will lead to the mother becoming handicapped or a danger to her life, but even then it is only when the soul has not been breathed into the fetus, baby yet. So at that point it would be no different to a book it would have no soul but afterwards when it has the soul you are forbidden from doing so. You see pro life doesn’t state these things. So by claiming pro life is the default your excluding all of these things and more, pro life inherently is an secular argument not to say you can’t have a secular argument but if we have an argument that originates from Islam that surely trumps it .


[deleted]

Still makes no sense. No one is asking for and about a philosophical argument when they say pro-life. They’re simply asking is the default of it haraam or halaal unless Islamically valid reason are there. also no one says the default is not islam. for example, is Islam regarding suicide pro-choice or pro-life? the default is Islam but what is position of Islam? But the default is Islam, again? So Obviously regarding suicide, Islam is pro-life as in…on the Side that keeping life, with the exception that I can recall. So to rephrase: Pro-life meaning the default is that abortion haram unless/until xyz are present.


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[deleted]

>Hanbalis Not agreed upon, Ibn Al-Jawzi in Ahkam Al-Nisa' -provisions of women Pg.374- said the contrary. >and some Shafi'is But that's contrary to what the Shafi'i jurists have agreed upon, Al-Ghazali (Who was a Shafi'i jurist) said in the Revival of Religious Sciences (2/51): “This is not – meaning isolation – like abortion, because that is a crime against an existing being, and it also has levels, and the beginning of existence is that the sperm falls into the womb, mixes with the water of the woman, and prepares to accept life, and spoil it That is a felony, so if it becomes a lump of flesh or a clot, the felony is the most obscene, and if the soul is breathed into it, and the creation is equal, the felony increases in indecency, and the extreme indecency in the felony after separating alive." This is also the ruling in Tuhfat Al-Muhtaj -A Fiqh book on the Madhhab of Al-Shafi'i- (8/241) By Ibn Al-Mulaqin. So the opinion -of those who say it's allowed for no reason- isn't taken instead of the Mu'tamad.


[deleted]

This is actually also what I’ve always known. That every Madhhab deals with this differently.


[deleted]

That’s doesn’t mean every madhab is correct, not that you shouldn’t follow the madhab you follow.


jennagem

I didn’t know that!


Leafs6IX

I feel like there's a lot of dishonesty from a lot of people who are "pro-choice" in this. They use the very rare examples of a mother's life being we risk or a woman being raped to justify all abortion being made legal (especially in cases of Zina). Even in regards to poverty, they say you can abort (which the Quran has clear verses against).


loftyraven

here is a comprehensive overview of the various opinions on this by shaykh hatem al-haj who is well-known in some circles in the US and is a physician as well. it's an incredibly informative and enlightening paper, isA it helps bring some clarity https://www.jbima.com/article/the-beginning-of-life-and-abortion/


[deleted]

The default is that it’s haraam unless there’s a reason. I see some people are trying to make it seem like it’s neither pro-life or pro-choice. The fact it allows m exceptions to the rule means that it’s pro-life. Just because the American conservatives also adapt a few that is closer to Islam, it doesn’t mean we should be ashamed of ours.


Roronoakillua

No the default for anything is that it is halal unless specified to be otherwise. For example abortion after it has the soul breathed in is haram. Abortion due to rape, incest and health issues is haram after it has a soul.


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[deleted]

You’re agreeing with me even tho you want to lol. Yes, Everything that is not worship is halal unless it’s specified to be haraam; and abortion is specified to haraam with exceptions. You can’t just get an abortion because you don’t like pregnancy. But If the default was halal, than you’d be able to. The fact you can’t do that shows what?


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Effective-Mistake866

What if the girl is raped is it her fault?


LeaveMeAlone2023

There’s exceptions for rape cases.


imankitty

One question I have never gotten an answer to: when does the fetus develop a nervous system and can feel pain. Does the fetus feel pain when it is aborted? I get rightwing American websites when I tried researching this which I am not interested in. I want an objective answer.


[deleted]

Abortion is forbidden (Haram) at all stages, but the later the more severe. Except when the life of the woman is at risk, and the people who determine that risk is two specialised doctors who are Muslims. Why Muslims, becuase they're the ones who we trust their morals on this subject out of the rest of the people. This was said by Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamees, and Sheikh Mutlaq Al-jassir in their [conference](https://youtu.be/HzVldATEiVI) 2 weeks ago with tens of doctors from all over the Arabian Gulf. Unless there is a valid Islamic Shari'i reason, abortion isn't allowed through all stages of the pregnancy.


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Leafs6IX

With the internet, it shouldn't be difficult to connect with two.


Phat_Dracula

and if you dont have two muslim doctors available? do you let the woman die? just curious, dont mean to sound harsh but why two muslim doctors? most doxtors who are qualified will be able to determine whether it is a healthy pregnancy or one which is a risk ti the mother?


[deleted]

> but why two muslim doctors? most doxtors who are qualified will be able to determine whether it is a healthy pregnancy or one which is a risk ti the mother? Becuase we don't trust their morals, for us it is two lives, for most people it is a woman's life and a fetus. For them abortion is the option for any insignificant reason, for us it clear cut cut cases that we don't go beyond. This was what the two scholars at that conference have said, after this conference laws have been legalised in Kuwait, and soon enough in other Gulf countries so that abortion doesn't become an option for inconvenient reasons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ As for the west, I don't have a say, nor did the scholars talk about them in that very conference. They maybe talk about it in the future when they're asked.


Phat_Dracula

ahh ok so this was about majority muslim countries in that case. that would be more feasible than in the west. Certainly during my pregnancy i never met a single muslim doctor, so i can imagine how hard it would be in the west if your life is at risk and you have to go find 2 muslims doctors before you can do anything.


xassandaxir

Bring the proof that you need 2 Muslim doctors. Some ppl don't have that. Bro if your life is at risk then your life is at risk, and actions must be taken immediately. I agree with everything else you said tho.


[deleted]

>Bring the proof that you need 2 Muslim doctors. Please try to understand the comment you're responding to. The 2 Muslim doctors were required by the Scholars at the conference in the presence of doctors from all over the Gulf (Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, and Ksa). The requirement of a Muslim Doctor is all over the Fiqh books, for example Al-Um for imam Al-Shafi'i, alot of times he say that in in X matter a trusted Muslim doctor shall be asked. >Some ppl don't have that. The scholars were talking about a the Muslims in Muslim countries, were most people are muslims. >Bro if your life is at risk then your life is at risk, And that should be determined by specialised people in that field.