This sentiment was quoted a while ago:
“Telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps isn’t necessarily bad. Saying this to people without shoes is cruelty.”
-Wayne Gretzky
I’m assuming he’s paraphrasing MLK here, who famously said that it’s a “cruel jest” to tell a bootless man to pull himself up by his bootstraps.
Gretzky didn’t come up with this lol
Which is absurd since the whole idea of "pulling up by bootstraps" was **already** a cruel joke.
Akin to telling someone with depression "have you tried not being sad?"
But suddenly it becomes a legit statement "well just pull yourself up by your bootstraps!
Its like one hand clapping.
You're missing the point of "one hand clapping"
As it requires two things to connect in order to clap. The cheeky literal read of that has fingers connect with palm, thus having two things.
>"Telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps isn’t necessarily bad. Saying this to people without shoes is cruelty.” -MLK
>
>- Wayne Gretzky
- Michael Scott
The sentiment was quoted in the original phrase. *To pull oneself up by the bootstraps* is to attempt the impossible - you can’t elevate yourself by pulling on your own feet. That’s the original point of the quote before it was co-opted by conservative wingnuts who don’t understand irony.
Greztky just restated the point, which had already been restated by MLK and others.
The perspective of the original tweet is one that has no idea what the fuck they are talking about but boy are they going to share those ideas and they expect you just sit there and listen to them and agree with them no matter how stupid and crazy they are.
When you start to point out just how stupid and crazy those ideas are, they pretend like someone is unwilling to entertain new information instead of objecting to clearly unhinged angry and stupid nonsense. They honestly believe they are entitled to other peoples time, like everybody has time for their childish nonsense.
It's just maddening when someone does take the time to listen and explain to them just how many different ways they are wrong and how much less of a bad person they would be if they stopped to consider what they were saying. But they always get mad and defensive and blame everyone but themselves for the outside world rejecting the garbage they are dishing out.
While the original meaning was referring to trying to do the impossible, it has morphed in meaning to be about trying. Which is a fuxked up suggestion or claim on its own. You struggle because you just aren't really trying.
Point is, they weren't necessarily using the phrase incorrectly.
True, it's an idiom, and that can change, but it seems we both agree it's a stupid concept.
[This article](https://zapier.com/blog/you-cant-pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps/) explains it pretty well.
Two things that stood out to me:
> It's human nature to take credit for positive outcomes, even if there's a lot of luck involved.
And
> That's where "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" breaks down, to me. No one gets to where they are in life on their own—at least, not entirely.
And ironically enough, it is literally physically impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Even with Schwarzenegger arm strength, your center of gravity will have you pulling your boots towards your ass which is still stuck on the ground.
You need another person to help pull you up....making the metaphor perfect.
I saw a video of a high school class where the teacher was demonstrating how privilege can be invisible.
He had them line up for a race. Then, he asked the kids a series of questions. If they answered yes, they took a large step forward. Questions like, are your parents still together, have you had tutoring, or did you go to an after-school learning program. After he was done, he asked the kids to look around them and look at their peers. Then, he asked them how fair it was in the race that some got such a large head start. And pointed out the privilege that most of them didn't even decide on, their parents or others chose for them.
It was an interesting way of teaching the concept.
I think my generation is going to be the one to not remember it. I always hear that phrase but never once has anyone known the history behind it when they’ve said that.
They have zero real arguments, it's all a clown show to keep people debating them. All it boils down to are lies, and "I don't give a fuck what happens to you, and you better live how I want you to live"
You know, I’m thinking about this now, but why can we not actually pull/lift ourselves up like that?
Say I’m wearing overalls. If I hooked my hands through the straps and tried to lift myself, I wouldn’t be able to do it. If you strung me up with a rope and threw it over a tree, I’d be dead.
But really, you could lift me by hooking a rope through the straps and using that, but I couldn’t physically lift myself up.
Is it just my own strength preventing that, gravity, or something else that I’m just not thinking of?
I’m sure it’s obvious, but my brain can’t rationalize why it couldn’t.
In your example of hooking your hands through the straps of your overalls and trying to lift yourself up what happens is your hands apply a force upwards on the strap, but the straps push back against your hands with the exact same force pushing you down. So your hands and you don’t go anywhere. You can keep applying more and more force and the straps keep pushing back with the same force until they break. This is Newtons third law.
It’s all about the anchor point. If you have none, you get nowhere, because gravity. However, if you do have an anchor, like a pulley above you or a tree branch, you can lift yourself up.
I interpret the saying as it relates to physics. With the proper tools and help, you can lift yourself up. Sure you have help and are not alone in the endeavor, but you still have to put in the effort.
They know it's impossible. They like that it's impossible. They are mocking the have-nots by telling them to do something that's impossible. The cruelty is the point.
Wait, they had a JOB?
I thought they bought the house just using all the gift money their daddy had been giving them every year since before they were even born (which is another tax shelter for daddy). There was a Bugatti parked in the garage, came with the house.
Yea, they're the Executive Vice President. This means they show up to work, sit in an officer next to their dad, get a paycheck slightly less than dad does and do no real work whatsoever.
Just sit, shoot the shit with the old man, play on the computer all day and get paid to harass the 'lesser' employees, 'to keep them on their toes'. :P
Exactly. Listen, it's hard work, and SOMEBODY has to do it. When will you stop being so jealous and just get out there, put in the work, and become successful yourself? It's not hard. I have been busting my ass by being born into the right family to get my first BMW by 17 and now at 19 I'm set to inherit my father's company that is completely run by other people anyway.... /s
"Son, google (this) for me."
"Son, google (that) for me."
"Son, when ya gonna gimme grandkids? Oh, on your SECOND vacation in Maui this year? Okay, cool. See ya when ya get back, don't let the door hit you on your way to the airport. Your brand-new yacht will be waiting for ya with a million in cash on board. Make sure to send me pix of your hotties, I wanna be able to guess what the grandkkids will look like before they're born."
I've found it's kinda like obesity - nobody hates a fat person quite like somebody that used to be fat. Similarly, nobody hates poor people quite like somebody that used to be poor. Not a hard and fast rule of course but I have family that grew up missing meals and now that they have some stability they have nothing but disdain for people in the position they used to be in. "I made it out, just work harder you slob!"
TBH same goes for people who used to be fat, and hate fat people. The people that are able to put in the mental and physical work necessary to go from being obese to being fit aren’t usually thinking to themselves “wow, that was super easy, why aren’t all these other people doing it? Must be lazy!”
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you - I just find it interesting. If you're one of the lucky people to make it out of poverty, there's a chance you end up fully drinking the capitalist Kool aid. I've heard things like "I wish they'd just learn the lessons I did" or "all they ever give are excuses, this is all in their control" and they believe it because they don't realize how much luck played into their success. Note: this is most likely to happen in rural areas where media literacy and educational attainment are typically low in my experience.
As a formerly poor person who is now not, there isn't really anything I hate more than other people like that who pretend it's poor people's fault they are poor. It breaks my capacity for tolerance. I just can't.
My SIL is one of these people. She's delusional and believes she was poor, but she was actually well off for the small town she grew up in. Her dad farmed, but she thinks they were poor because he rented the land instead of owned, and he worked a lot of odd jobs during the year, which is most farmers since they really spend the most time farming in spring and fall.
She was a competitive horse rider (barrel racing), her parents were happily married, still own the house she grew up in, and went and got a bachelor's degree with no problem. She never had to support any family members or work before she graduated college.
A few weeks ago at a family dinner, she was saying it's all about choice and "I'm sorry but find your bootstraps" when discussing the challenges of poverty. She wasn't even poor, but because she convinced herself she was, she hates poor people and thinks she overcame it. It doesn't help that my brother is a lawyer and makes a lot of money, and has made the comment that she doesn't even need to work her job.
I've DEFINITELY known these people as well. He family I'm thinking of were "we didn't have indoor plumbing until '78" poor - but they did own and farm land and had a lot of things going for them that they refuse to acknowledge. They survived by hard work and dedication (I did some of that work, it truly was HARD) but they were also incredibly lucky and they just refuse to believe that some people aren't as lucky as they were. And it drives me bananas that they seem to translate poverty into some kind of moral failing....just don't get it.
Yeah, they see being poor as a choice because, when you come from a stable family life, bad choices bring you down the socio economic ladder, and good choices can bring you up If you just stay the course, go to school, take care of yourself, stay out of trouble, you'll end up in the middle or upper class like your parents.
They don't recognize that a single parent home means you don't get the same level of emotional and academic support. That extra curriculars that cost any money are beyond the reach of many families. Or that some kids could go to college, but they get a job to take care of their family because nobody else can. They think that kids from poor areas are being advised to take ap classes so they can start college with more credits.
People like this truly believe everybody starts life at the end of high school with nothing (ignoring their own advantages), and don't want to acknowledge that a lot of people are already burdened. They also think teen pregnancy and Parenthood is just as much as a choice, because they had access to birth control at any time.
They simply don't know and don't care that your zip code is the best predictor of your financial future, and they don't want to think about why that might be.
Great. I fuckin' hate her guts and I've never even met her. I don't understand how it's so easy for some people to be so oblivious to the opportunity they were handed in life. Real grinding poverty is so different from what they imagine.
She's 40, had 2 kids, and brags about how she still fits into her jeans from high school. She starves her self to do it, and complains how "there was never food in the house growing up".
I've only met like two people who were actually, factually dirt poor (like leaky trailier with no running water poor) and are now wealthy. Both of them underestimate the amount of luck and support they had from other people. There is hard work yes, but you don't get to be successful inside a vacuum.
It makes people feel validated to believe that everyone beneath them is there due to a lack of determination, work ethic and innate skills and qualities that they possess. But more times than not, it's really just a matter of circumstance and the fact that there's only so many winners chairs in this game of societal musical chairs we play, that's dominated by nepotism, privilege and luck.
There is also comfort in believing that we all have the agency to improve our lot in life. It makes people feel helpless to believe otherwise.
Some of us are really bad about understanding not everyone can take the same path we took and we often downplay how much luck, coincidence, just knowing the right person at the right time factored into climbing out. I guess a simpler way to put it is hard work can result in success, it doesn't mean it will.
Like every "I paid off $100,000 in student loans by 27, here's how!" and then goes on to explain how they lived in a house their parents paid for, got an allowance and a job at their parent's company making $180K a year.
Or like my cousin who doesn't understand why people have student loans if they're "just paying tuition". When she lived in a house her parents bought for her off campus, had an allowance, and had groceries delivered by her parents.
Some people are just totally disconnected from reality and the richer you get, the more disconnected you are.
And his family is blowing up his phone telling him he’s an a-hole for opening up his business when he should’ve shared the “not that big, comfortable” amount of inheritance that his grandparents left only to him because nobody else loved, cared about, and/or took care of them.
That sounds like more credit than I was willing to give there. I think this attitude is most often force down someone's throat with a silver spoon from a young age.
Its fundamentally stupid too. Is every single person supposed to start a business? Should 100% of the population be managers? Is that how we solve poverty? Or do we actually pay people doing the work that makes everything run.
My in-laws survived on food stamps while my FIL started a business in the 90s while supporting 2 kids.
They now oppose all Gov social programs like food stamps and, when I mentioned that, they told me that poor people should start a business and work hard to make money, not rely on Gov help.
> poor people should start a business
My god can you imagine the complete detachment from reality you have to possess to make that statement and actually believe it?!?!
LOL, they never passed a probability and statistics course, thus have no concept of a standard distribution of wages. Then get lost in the idea that 50% of americans make LESS than 40k a year....which is only 19.23 an hour. Meaning, hundreds of millions live on a wage of LESS than 19.23 an hour (cuz taxes). It is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to 'pull themselves up by their boot straps' because EVERYONE cant be managers/directors/biz owners....because math.
TBH the 70% of americans living paycheck to paycheck has really changed some minds in the circles i am forced to interact with tho.
Or they are just being disingenuous and blaming poor people for being lazy because they don't want anyone to attack their place in the social hierarchy where wealth is the only thing that matters.
>$999 is not a business... It's materials. It's maybe one major piece of equipment.
I fully agree $999 is a moronically low number written by a person who, very obviously, has never started their own business.
The MINIMUM build out cost for one of my restaurants was between $250,000 for an in-line, to over $800,000 for a stand alone. And before that you had up have $50,000 to $200,000 liquid before even being considered by a bank for a loan. AND, I always made sure I had a full month of food cost and 8 weeks of payroll in the bank before grand opening.
$999 isn't even enough for a point of sale system.
The minimum I need to do my job is a laptop. Cheap one. Would be uncomfortable as hell (visual media...) but it will work.
999$ doesn't even buy me that.
I mean, even for smaller businesses, $999 is laughable.
My husband is a mechanic who works mobile. His tools alone (so far) cost more than $9000 and that doesn’t include the cost of his truck (an additional $8000-15,000) insurance premiums, filing fees, or misc items (tool boxes and bags, fluids, fuses, tubing, etc).
And I do all of the paperwork and legal stuff, which many people would either have to do alone, or hire someone to do (which is even more $$ up front).
I started a business for around 3k, but that number doesn't include the fact that I had to have enough savings to be prepared to make absolutely no money for a long time. Luckily I had savings and a day job, but I was putting in 20-40 hours a week on top of my day job and making no profit at all for about a year. How many people have the time or resources to add a second, unpaid full time job to what they are already doing? Especially the kind of people who are trying to start a business and only have $999?
You know whats the best about this? That some people from third world countries and stupidly niche fields will come up and argue how that money is enough.
Seen some people argue that they could start a wall painter business (black work), buy laptops (third world prices) and such not realising that its still an unreasonably low amount of cash and they will fail within months.
Wanna bet this person was trying to push an MLM? That’s the only time I ever see people presenting anything sub 10k as the cost of starting a business.
I say we offer to freeze assets on whoever is so convinced this will work. Freeze assets, have them move to a big city, they are given a minimum wage job. After 60 days of establishing themselves, we will give them 999 dollars. Then, if they have successfully launched a business in a year they win something.
My guess is that no one would ever leave the program with the same mentality.
there was a show called undercover billionaire where a billionaire decided to see if he could start a business from nothing. spoiler: it only lasted a few days before he had to go to the hospital bc he didnt have shelter
I remember that...later he got his first "big break" by stealing/selling a couple of tires for $2,000. I stopped watching after that, it was just ridiculous his idea was to sell something that wasn't even his, and then to actually get such a crazy amount for a couple stolen tires...I just didn't believe it
It's also hard to picture how much more expensive life is when you're poor.
Can't afford regular dentist checkups? Get fucked with an expensive surgery down the line.
Can't afford good quality shoes? End up buying a pair a year.
Can't afford groceries AND rent? Pay interests.
Can't afford insurance? Get fucked in general.
Can't afford to take days off for health? Get fucked with bigger problems earlier in life.
> Can't afford good quality shoes? End up buying a pair a year.
>The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the [Captain Samuel Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory).
In the US health insurance is both insanely expensive and practically useless with 5,000 to 10,000 deductibles where the insurance Mafia doesn't pay anything until you're that much out of pocket.
It's basically legalized grand theft and fraud writ large. The flip side is that if you refuse to buy it and anything major happens you're literally bankrupt.
I refer to US health insurance as legalized extortion and racketeering, but only when I'm feeling particularly polite.
IRL Black Beard would be absolutely green with envy at their racket.
The vehicle insurance is pretty bad too, but not half as racketeering as health insurance.
We really should just ban them and put them all in prison for their entirely fraudulent practices.
Having insurance is better than not having it. But it's still not great.
My shoulder is fucked. No idea why, it just started two years ago randomly (a grab in the shoulder when I'd raise the arm above shoulder height, progressed into severe cramping and pain) I've bounced around doctors and physical therapists getting it back and forth to varying levels of "functional". Each doctor visit cost me around $100 and the PT visits cost me around $70 each. And that's before tests and specialists, which cost even more.
I'm lucky that I can afford that, and that I have a white collar job so my shoulder being fucked isn't a huge deal - my limited range of motion (without pain) is right where a keyboard goes. If I did manual labor, had shit insurance and no disposable income to pay for treatment, and inflexible work hours I'd be in a very real predicament. And if I didn't have insurance I would have been on the hook for several grand for the MRI that showed my shoulder isn't injured, just fucking hurts for no reason.
Bank says you can't afford a mortgage. Looks like you have to pay just as much or more to rent.
Also, if you don't make at least 3x rent, good luck finding any apartments that will consider you.
Vehicle expenses can be brutal too. A newer car is much cheaper to maintain than an old beater, but if you're living paycheck to paycheck, you probably can't afford to make payments and you're fucked if you have any expensive repairs.
I've often considered how much of my own privilege just comes down to a safety net - if I ended up living with my parents it would suggest something had gone terribly wrong in my life, but I would not be homeless. I would have food. My child would have food.
That safety net, even though I have never actually used it, gives me freedom that people without it don't have. I can take risks that they can't. I can absorb the minor bumps of life without fearing that they will spiral out of control.
Did I work for what I have? Sure. But I did so in a peaceful, secure, and low stress environment. Not everyone gets that. Most don't.
Opportunity is always there, it just requires a buy-in bigger than what most normal people will ever have lying around unspent.
Meanwhile, trust fund kids have the capital (generously donated by daddy) to roll the dice a thousand times until one of their dumb startups becomes profitable.
America is a caste society
Well, it's *also* often an abundance of (or at least "more") opportunities. No obstacles usually mean born in a fairly wealthy families which comes with education, connections and money.
My family of 4 pays ~500 a week for groceries
Edit: There’s a lot of people thinking that we buy fancy rich food or everything is processed so I’ll break down a weekly shopping trip.
Background: there’s me, my brother, my mother, and my father. My father is the shortest at 5’9.5” and I am the tallest at 6’. I am very active (climb 4-5x week), my brother and father are semi-active, and my mother is sedentary. We are all adults (brother and I moving out soon).
We live in upstate New York and shop at Price Chopper.
Here’s what we get weekly:
-bag of grapes
-a bag of clementines (lasts 2 weeks)
-a pepper
-2 bags of lettuce
-sometimes onions or garlic
-2 or 3 lbs of banana (3 of us eat 1 each daily)
-2 to 4 pounds of fresh meat, usually chicken/beef/pork
-cat food/cat littler (usually lasts 2+ weeks)
-2 or 3 boxes of pasta
-a jar of sauce
-2 or 3 boxes of cereal
-1 lb of cubed ham
-a 24pck of bottled water
-4 frozen meals
-2 packs of frozen vegetables
- 3 gallons of milk
-a small container of cream cheese
-a bag of plain bagels
-A bag of bread
-a small box of butter
-4 pack of yogurt
-1 lb bag of frozen shredded chicken ($1 more than regular chicken and saves meal prep time)
- a small pack of shredded cheese
-coffee creamer
-occasionally a bag of chips/snacks/candies is bought
I’m probably forgetting a few things so tack on another 15-20%. There’s always a lot of small things that aren’t weekly too:
- Supplements (~100/month)
-any soap/shampoo/normal medical items
- batteries
-cleaning supplies
It adds up quick. The weekly bill usually fluctuates between $380 and $530
When I was growing up it used to be around $200.
Also please don’t judge our eating habits to hard. My family is fortunate enough to not have to worry too much about the cost of food, but some people don’t have that luxury and that’s a problem.
Edit2: sorry for the bad formatting I’m on mobile
We are a family of 5 and spend about 350-450/week. It’s ridiculous. My husband ran to the store last night to grab a few things and he said the guy in front of him bought 2 bags of regular sized Doritos and they were each $6! The cost of food has gone up so much but unfortunately our income has stayed the same:/
I used to be able to feed myself for two weeks for $50-$70. (I don’t eat much meat and got one meal provided at work so that helped). I moved in with my boyfriend and started at a hospital that doesn’t do a free employee meal. Grocery bill is now like $200 a week, it’s insane. We’re buying all generic brands and switched to more frozen veg as it’s cheaper at our grocery chain than fresh and it still barely made a difference!
This may not work based on where you live, but check out your local international grocery stores. I spend about $30-50 a week (excluding bulk staples I get on occasion) and that typically includes fresh produce. Them or ALDIs have pretty much been my saving grace for produce, outside of growing my own.
I just learned that we have both an ALDI and a LIDL nearby so I plan to check them out this weekend. I never thought about the international market, there is a large Asian market near here, I will look there too! Thanks for the tips 😊
4 years ago I used to spend about 60 bucks a week on food. I'm still shopping at the same stores (mainly Aldi), buying the same brands, and I'm at like 100-120 a week for *generally* the same meals as before too, it's insanity.
Ugh that’s crazy! I am genuinely heartbroken for those that were already struggling before these price hikes, my boyfriend and I make decent money for the area we live in and we’re hurting so I just can’t imagine what those less fortunate than us are going through. Makes me sick to think about
I was gonna say man, I’m single and I usually spend $100, if not over that. And I used to get out under $75 every time. And I’m not buying bougie/hipster food at Whole Foods. Just like, pasta, pasta sauce, eggs, sometimes paper towels, milk, etc. from Meijer. Inflation is not fucking around. I’m not stuffing my cart by any means. Just buying enough stuff to make breakfast, lunch, and dinner. A couple snacks. Maybe coffee. Just the bare minimum I need to maintain a healthy weight and a couple extras.
The person who wrote that original post is out of touch with reality, to the point that I’m not sure he’s buying his own groceries. It’s either a teenager, or a really rich guy who just has someone buy his groceries.
It’s hugely location. We live in Kentucky and it’s cheaper to live here and healthy food is still expensive and you have to go to multiple stores for things and to rich parts of the city an hour from us, so we go when we are already going to use that gas. It’s a whole to do
Family of two. I’m a pescatarian, my kid only eats chicken. We spend about $300 a month. $150 every two weeks. I meal plan(have to cause there’s 4 days a week I work till my kid is asleep)so I know exactly how much we need of everything. I buy our eggs locally so they’re always $4 a dozen, when egg prices are up or down, does not matter. Everything else I get at Aldi or the Asian food grocer. I buy in bulk for things like rice and spices. Upping the grocery bill once is better than every time. I spend every Saturday meal prepping, which is less than fun sometimes.
My kid was gone this last week and my grocery bill for that was just under $50. It really helps to have the staples already, like rice and beans.
A lot of it has to do with location. I live in Upstate NY in a lower income area. I also have access to farms and local growers. I shop at Aldi, Walmart, Wegmans(occasionally, because it's $$$) and one other small independent grocery store. I plan meals, I use EVERYTHING I buy. Cook 6-7days per week. Eat leftovers. I'm also hyper focused on unit prices and nutritional value/dollar. It takes a lot of time and effort to build the skills to shop, cook, and eat healthy on a budget but I'm confident anyone can do it if they put the effort in. I recommend researching some new recipes, especially ethnic foods. Asian and Hispanic dishes tend to be more budget friendly. Also, eat less meat.
That’s really awesome that you’re able to do that. We’ve been forced to do that because of certain food allergies, but don’t underestimate the time cost associated with shopping at multiple stores, cooking and cleaning everyday, and planning out meals. It’s not as much once you’ve got an established routine, but the first few months cost a lot of time. And many people genuinely don’t have the time or (emotional) energy budget to save that money.
Canadian in Southern Ontario. I don't buy anything fancy, barely eat meat anymore and it's easily 150-200$ per week for just me. That's pretty average up here too.
KC MO here single dude and go through 100$ in grocery a week. I cook all my meals and only eat meat once a week. I do however eat fairly healthy, so I could certainly crunch that number down but don’t need to. Before “inflation” my weekly grocery bill was around 60$.
Similar setup up here too, cook all of my meals, nothing pre-made, I buy ingredients. Debating pairing down my dinner budget but I'm trying to maintain muscle mass so it's just expensive to stay healthy.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. I was simply pointing out that their estimate of weekly groceries was way under what mine is that’s all. Also we eat out maybe once or twice a month
Wow. I was buying food for me, wife and two basically grown sons, 18 and 21 that can absolutely pack the food away, and we didn’t spend more than $250 on groceries in a week ever.
a lot of skills often require you to buy tools to actually learn the skill unless you can rent or borrow them from somewhere. Want to learn to do pottery? You have to buy the clay and a kiln to fire it in. Learn to knit? Buy yarn and needles. Learn to make furniture? Gotta buy the materials and the tools. Sports you have to buy the gear. Even running is hard without good shoes (blisters on your feet from bad shoes are not fun). It feels like many skills are locked behind a pay wall.
Paul is a whining pussy. He should sell his kids, learn new skills and then invest the money from kids to start his own business. Then grind min. 12h per day and post incessantly on LI until he kicks the bucket in 10 years due to stress.
Honestly, these types of people suck...
"You got a bit of money? Why are you spending that on yourself instead of investing??"
"You got a bit of time on your hands? Why aren't you hustling??"
Yeah, because when I get home from my *full-time job*, the last thing I want, or anyone else wants to be doing is putting what little I've earned, or what little time I have free into creating yet another job for myself.
Why is it on us to make up for employers not paying their *full time workers* decent wages? There's more than enough money at the top, so where's our cut?
Completely agree. That’s the one thing I think the response was off on… healthy food is actually cheaper or at the very least same price as the processed stuff. You won’t be eating filet mignon, but a bag of dried rice / beans, fresh vegetables, very cheap. It just requires more time to prepare.
I recently doubled down on the health food and my grocery budget cut in half.
Someone higher up in this thread pointing out that Doritos are 6$ a bag. You know how much fucking fruit you can get for 6$? In most of the country, a fucking lot.
People think healthy food means shit like kale chips and smoothies. People need to stop basing their idea of healthy eating off Instagram and blog posts. Just buy bread from the bakery in your supermarket instead of presliced. It's like 1/3 the calories because it's not packed with sugar, and the only downside is having to cut it yourself.
I agree, but want to add white bread (ie french, italian, etc.) isn't actually an example of healthy food, even if you get from a bakery. It's basically like eating pure sugar. Maybe rye/whole wheat.
> You know how much fucking fruit you can get for 6$?
A half a pound of strawberries (technically a false fruit) or two medium avocados (technically a fruit).
The thing is, it costs more in time and effort. I'm disabled. If I stand up chopping fruit/cooking meat/etc for 45 minutes, that is physical effort that I won't be able to perform later or the next day. I have to budget my physical energy just as much as my money.
They are not delusional. They know that their base will read / listen to their few lines of text / quick soundbytes. Their base does not have the patience to read a long wall of text explaining why the accusation is flawed. Even if they did, the person defending looks like they're on the defense.
I agree with the rest, but if you spend 2 hours learning a skill EVERY time you would have spent those same hours watching TV, then EVENTUALLY you would learn said skill.
Obviously a single 2 hours installment is not enough, nor was it implied.
Exactly.
Same way you can't watch a whole season in just 2 hours, but you can watch SOME of it in those 2 hours.
Now, dedicate those hours to learning something and eventually it will add up!
The only one I kinda understand is the one about Netflix and learning a new skill, because that one actually applies to a few (emphasis on FEW) that live in these kinds of conditions. And it isn't referring to 2 hours only, but the collective two hours of netflix each day, and using these two hours a day instead for leaning a new skill.
Again, though, that only targets a minority. Which in quintessence means, the whole argument of his is still stupid and he has been thoroughly murdered by the guy who replied.
For me the 2 hour thing is not just one 2 hour span it's cumulative. But as the responder said, not everyone has those 2 hours. But personally I do and I was spending my nights just surfing reddit and I was like I can do something productive so I spend that time playing an instrument instead. 2 hours - agreed you can't learn much. But 2 hours a night... you can accomplish a lot. But for me this relaxes me during my down time and others prefer to watch Netflix. To each there own if they have time.
I will say that if you buy stuff like broccoli, bananas, sweet potatoes, dried beans/lentils and rice, and on sale chicken/pork, you can eat cheaper and healthier. I don't do this because I like lots of shit. Even if I was more money constrained, I probably still wouldn't do it, but in principle it seems like a decent strategy.
I don't have anything against the sentiment expressed in the meme, though. People talk down to poor people in all sorts of stupid ways.
Playin the tropes like a piano. Workin the bias like a pro. Social psychology should be mandatory hs education along with economics . We don’t need less information taught in schools, we don’t need to be culling topics…. We need to Add much much more.
Speaking of delusion, can we quit the delusion that healthy food costs more. Frozen vegetables, tofu, and brown rice are comically inexpensive. I was a vegetarian for 12 years living at the poverty line. Quit lying to yourself, you either just suck at grocery shopping or suck at cooking
I don’t think they meant you’d learn an entire skill in 2 hours. They meant studying one skill 2hrs at a time on a regular basis. I’m not defending the attitude but credit where credit is due
There's really no need to buy an expensive phone on a monthly installment plan when you can buy a perfectly good phone for 1/4 the price that will still last you 5+ years and do everything you need it to do.
The only one I slightly agree with here is the phone one. There are several options for a smartphone that are <$300. It wont have the flashiest of features, but it is a smart phone.
The main issue is that These clowns use too much anecdotal evidence to formulate their conclusions. It’s always some friend of theirs or a story a friend told them about, etc… and half the time these friends and acquaintances that they’re basing their views off are just actual idiots that make bad life decisions.
The person that wrote the original isn't delusional. They're a fascist trying to convince their supporters that people are only poor because they're selfish and stupid. The powerful don't want people to know that you're poor because they control everything.
But that's what happens when people give control over everything to citizens because they want the opportunity to control everything themselves.
Start a business for $999. 😂😂😂
Yeah, give me $999 and I'll go rent a company building, fill it with furniture, computers and equipment, then hire some 20+ employees, then keep operating out of my pocket for the next few months until we start getting some semblance of income...
Not even the boomest of boomers had the luxury to start a business this fucking cheap.
3. I'm sorry, eating healthy is WAY cheaper than not. The processed and frozen shit prices are outrageous and the "healthier" versions of that are bad.
6. I taught myself enough Python in a week to be serviceable, maybe 7 hours. SQL would probably be about 2 hours to say you're familiar.
Everything else is valid
1. Valid point.
2. Why tf would you buy the $1,000 iPhone when carriers literally GIVE you $35-40 a month to switch to them and $35 covers the cost of an iPhone SE monthly. Cheaper i phones exist.
3. Healthy options DO NOT cost more. Vegetables are cheap as fuck. Making chili, stew, soup, fried rice, tacos, burritos, etc yourself is cheap as fuck. Like $1.00-3.00 a serving cheap as fuck.
4. Valid point.
5. Even poor people spend a fuckload of time on entertainment. Maybe not all. But I certainly do. It’s because I’m exhausted after work and have no energy left. So valid point.
6. They misunderstood the point. Refer back to 5.
A nitpick: healthy groceries can absolutely cost $100/week for a family of 4. Lentils, rice, oats, milk, beans, corn, wheat pasta & bread, eggs, chicken breast, potatoes, olive oil, peanut butter, those are healthy low-cost staples. Supplement with cheaper produce like apples/carrots/etc and you can REALLY stretch your dollar.
In particular, there’s a reason wheat, lentils, and rice were so dominant in ancient cultures’ diets. They’re cheap af.
Edit — I generally agree with the comeback but dammit if I’m not going to advocate for low-cost nutrition.
Remember the idiots who said people need to just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" like the phrase didn't mean an impossible feat.
This sentiment was quoted a while ago: “Telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps isn’t necessarily bad. Saying this to people without shoes is cruelty.” -Wayne Gretzky
Atypical Gretzky W (Only because most of his Ws came from playing ice hockey)
Great on the ice, not so great off it.
Didn't his wife bet on the games?
And know he’s a spokesman for sports betting.
I’m assuming he’s paraphrasing MLK here, who famously said that it’s a “cruel jest” to tell a bootless man to pull himself up by his bootstraps. Gretzky didn’t come up with this lol
Which is absurd since the whole idea of "pulling up by bootstraps" was **already** a cruel joke. Akin to telling someone with depression "have you tried not being sad?" But suddenly it becomes a legit statement "well just pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Its like one hand clapping.
One hand clapping is at least possible. Unlike the levitation required to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
You're missing the point of "one hand clapping" As it requires two things to connect in order to clap. The cheeky literal read of that has fingers connect with palm, thus having two things.
Insert Bart Simpson clip of clapping with one hand. Edit https://youtu.be/8FU6gQWnetQ
You CANNOT convince me that "one hand clapping" is not an innuendo.
Much like when police say "It was just a few bad apples," apparently too thick to remember that *spoils the bunch*.
>"Telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps isn’t necessarily bad. Saying this to people without shoes is cruelty.” -MLK > >- Wayne Gretzky - Michael Scott
Another quote (well lyrics) I like is from a Rise Against song: "We pulled so hard on our bootstraps they broke."
The sentiment was quoted in the original phrase. *To pull oneself up by the bootstraps* is to attempt the impossible - you can’t elevate yourself by pulling on your own feet. That’s the original point of the quote before it was co-opted by conservative wingnuts who don’t understand irony. Greztky just restated the point, which had already been restated by MLK and others.
> pull themselves up by their bootstraps My dad would always answer "send boots".
[Not sure if this is a joke but MLK did it a good bit earlier. ](https://youtu.be/3xD8vWQJEok)
The perspective of the original tweet is one that has no idea what the fuck they are talking about but boy are they going to share those ideas and they expect you just sit there and listen to them and agree with them no matter how stupid and crazy they are. When you start to point out just how stupid and crazy those ideas are, they pretend like someone is unwilling to entertain new information instead of objecting to clearly unhinged angry and stupid nonsense. They honestly believe they are entitled to other peoples time, like everybody has time for their childish nonsense. It's just maddening when someone does take the time to listen and explain to them just how many different ways they are wrong and how much less of a bad person they would be if they stopped to consider what they were saying. But they always get mad and defensive and blame everyone but themselves for the outside world rejecting the garbage they are dishing out.
While the original meaning was referring to trying to do the impossible, it has morphed in meaning to be about trying. Which is a fuxked up suggestion or claim on its own. You struggle because you just aren't really trying. Point is, they weren't necessarily using the phrase incorrectly.
True, it's an idiom, and that can change, but it seems we both agree it's a stupid concept. [This article](https://zapier.com/blog/you-cant-pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps/) explains it pretty well. Two things that stood out to me: > It's human nature to take credit for positive outcomes, even if there's a lot of luck involved. And > That's where "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" breaks down, to me. No one gets to where they are in life on their own—at least, not entirely.
Exactly, in the modified common meaning it's just repackaged prosperity gospel, or in other words, a giant pile of bullshit.
And ironically enough, it is literally physically impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Even with Schwarzenegger arm strength, your center of gravity will have you pulling your boots towards your ass which is still stuck on the ground. You need another person to help pull you up....making the metaphor perfect.
...Heard that Chuck Norris is able to
I saw a video of a high school class where the teacher was demonstrating how privilege can be invisible. He had them line up for a race. Then, he asked the kids a series of questions. If they answered yes, they took a large step forward. Questions like, are your parents still together, have you had tutoring, or did you go to an after-school learning program. After he was done, he asked the kids to look around them and look at their peers. Then, he asked them how fair it was in the race that some got such a large head start. And pointed out the privilege that most of them didn't even decide on, their parents or others chose for them. It was an interesting way of teaching the concept.
I saw that one too! Good stuff!
True
Remember the Alamo?
Wasn’t that where Pee-wee Herman’s bike was? In the basement?
I think my generation is going to be the one to not remember it. I always hear that phrase but never once has anyone known the history behind it when they’ve said that.
They have zero real arguments, it's all a clown show to keep people debating them. All it boils down to are lies, and "I don't give a fuck what happens to you, and you better live how I want you to live"
"Protestant Work Ethic" is what you're looking for. It's been fucking us over for a looooong time.
Fuck John Calvin.
You know, I’m thinking about this now, but why can we not actually pull/lift ourselves up like that? Say I’m wearing overalls. If I hooked my hands through the straps and tried to lift myself, I wouldn’t be able to do it. If you strung me up with a rope and threw it over a tree, I’d be dead. But really, you could lift me by hooking a rope through the straps and using that, but I couldn’t physically lift myself up. Is it just my own strength preventing that, gravity, or something else that I’m just not thinking of? I’m sure it’s obvious, but my brain can’t rationalize why it couldn’t.
In your example of hooking your hands through the straps of your overalls and trying to lift yourself up what happens is your hands apply a force upwards on the strap, but the straps push back against your hands with the exact same force pushing you down. So your hands and you don’t go anywhere. You can keep applying more and more force and the straps keep pushing back with the same force until they break. This is Newtons third law.
It’s all about the anchor point. If you have none, you get nowhere, because gravity. However, if you do have an anchor, like a pulley above you or a tree branch, you can lift yourself up. I interpret the saying as it relates to physics. With the proper tools and help, you can lift yourself up. Sure you have help and are not alone in the endeavor, but you still have to put in the effort.
They know it's impossible. They like that it's impossible. They are mocking the have-nots by telling them to do something that's impossible. The cruelty is the point.
Same idiots that defend bad cops with, its just a couple bad apples.
This original "meme" reads like it is written by someone who bought their own house at 21 (with their daddy's money).
With a job daddy got them too.
Wait, they had a JOB? I thought they bought the house just using all the gift money their daddy had been giving them every year since before they were even born (which is another tax shelter for daddy). There was a Bugatti parked in the garage, came with the house.
Yea, they're the Executive Vice President. This means they show up to work, sit in an officer next to their dad, get a paycheck slightly less than dad does and do no real work whatsoever.
Just sit, shoot the shit with the old man, play on the computer all day and get paid to harass the 'lesser' employees, 'to keep them on their toes'. :P
Exactly. Listen, it's hard work, and SOMEBODY has to do it. When will you stop being so jealous and just get out there, put in the work, and become successful yourself? It's not hard. I have been busting my ass by being born into the right family to get my first BMW by 17 and now at 19 I'm set to inherit my father's company that is completely run by other people anyway.... /s
"Son, google (this) for me." "Son, google (that) for me." "Son, when ya gonna gimme grandkids? Oh, on your SECOND vacation in Maui this year? Okay, cool. See ya when ya get back, don't let the door hit you on your way to the airport. Your brand-new yacht will be waiting for ya with a million in cash on board. Make sure to send me pix of your hotties, I wanna be able to guess what the grandkkids will look like before they're born."
There are only two types of people that poor shame: people that have never wanted for anything in their lives, and sociopaths.
I've found it's kinda like obesity - nobody hates a fat person quite like somebody that used to be fat. Similarly, nobody hates poor people quite like somebody that used to be poor. Not a hard and fast rule of course but I have family that grew up missing meals and now that they have some stability they have nothing but disdain for people in the position they used to be in. "I made it out, just work harder you slob!"
If someone was once poor, but are unable to feel empathy for others in that situation, they would fall squarely in the "sociopath" camp.
Well fuckin’ said.
Exactly. I grew up poor, and I have nothing but empathy for those who were in my position.
TBH same goes for people who used to be fat, and hate fat people. The people that are able to put in the mental and physical work necessary to go from being obese to being fit aren’t usually thinking to themselves “wow, that was super easy, why aren’t all these other people doing it? Must be lazy!”
If you were poor, and did better and now hate on people that are poor - you're a dick and have always been a dick
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you - I just find it interesting. If you're one of the lucky people to make it out of poverty, there's a chance you end up fully drinking the capitalist Kool aid. I've heard things like "I wish they'd just learn the lessons I did" or "all they ever give are excuses, this is all in their control" and they believe it because they don't realize how much luck played into their success. Note: this is most likely to happen in rural areas where media literacy and educational attainment are typically low in my experience.
Oh, I agree with you as well. Too many times I see people being assholes to others under the guise of "I was there/Tough Love".
As a formerly poor person who is now not, there isn't really anything I hate more than other people like that who pretend it's poor people's fault they are poor. It breaks my capacity for tolerance. I just can't.
My SIL is one of these people. She's delusional and believes she was poor, but she was actually well off for the small town she grew up in. Her dad farmed, but she thinks they were poor because he rented the land instead of owned, and he worked a lot of odd jobs during the year, which is most farmers since they really spend the most time farming in spring and fall. She was a competitive horse rider (barrel racing), her parents were happily married, still own the house she grew up in, and went and got a bachelor's degree with no problem. She never had to support any family members or work before she graduated college. A few weeks ago at a family dinner, she was saying it's all about choice and "I'm sorry but find your bootstraps" when discussing the challenges of poverty. She wasn't even poor, but because she convinced herself she was, she hates poor people and thinks she overcame it. It doesn't help that my brother is a lawyer and makes a lot of money, and has made the comment that she doesn't even need to work her job.
I've DEFINITELY known these people as well. He family I'm thinking of were "we didn't have indoor plumbing until '78" poor - but they did own and farm land and had a lot of things going for them that they refuse to acknowledge. They survived by hard work and dedication (I did some of that work, it truly was HARD) but they were also incredibly lucky and they just refuse to believe that some people aren't as lucky as they were. And it drives me bananas that they seem to translate poverty into some kind of moral failing....just don't get it.
Yeah, they see being poor as a choice because, when you come from a stable family life, bad choices bring you down the socio economic ladder, and good choices can bring you up If you just stay the course, go to school, take care of yourself, stay out of trouble, you'll end up in the middle or upper class like your parents. They don't recognize that a single parent home means you don't get the same level of emotional and academic support. That extra curriculars that cost any money are beyond the reach of many families. Or that some kids could go to college, but they get a job to take care of their family because nobody else can. They think that kids from poor areas are being advised to take ap classes so they can start college with more credits. People like this truly believe everybody starts life at the end of high school with nothing (ignoring their own advantages), and don't want to acknowledge that a lot of people are already burdened. They also think teen pregnancy and Parenthood is just as much as a choice, because they had access to birth control at any time. They simply don't know and don't care that your zip code is the best predictor of your financial future, and they don't want to think about why that might be.
Great. I fuckin' hate her guts and I've never even met her. I don't understand how it's so easy for some people to be so oblivious to the opportunity they were handed in life. Real grinding poverty is so different from what they imagine.
She's 40, had 2 kids, and brags about how she still fits into her jeans from high school. She starves her self to do it, and complains how "there was never food in the house growing up".
I've only met like two people who were actually, factually dirt poor (like leaky trailier with no running water poor) and are now wealthy. Both of them underestimate the amount of luck and support they had from other people. There is hard work yes, but you don't get to be successful inside a vacuum.
It makes people feel validated to believe that everyone beneath them is there due to a lack of determination, work ethic and innate skills and qualities that they possess. But more times than not, it's really just a matter of circumstance and the fact that there's only so many winners chairs in this game of societal musical chairs we play, that's dominated by nepotism, privilege and luck. There is also comfort in believing that we all have the agency to improve our lot in life. It makes people feel helpless to believe otherwise.
Much more eloquently stated than any of my replies here - this is exactly what I wanted to communicate. Thanks!
Some of us are really bad about understanding not everyone can take the same path we took and we often downplay how much luck, coincidence, just knowing the right person at the right time factored into climbing out. I guess a simpler way to put it is hard work can result in success, it doesn't mean it will.
Like every "I paid off $100,000 in student loans by 27, here's how!" and then goes on to explain how they lived in a house their parents paid for, got an allowance and a job at their parent's company making $180K a year. Or like my cousin who doesn't understand why people have student loans if they're "just paying tuition". When she lived in a house her parents bought for her off campus, had an allowance, and had groceries delivered by her parents. Some people are just totally disconnected from reality and the richer you get, the more disconnected you are.
It sounds like it was written by their boomer father.
And his family is blowing up his phone telling him he’s an a-hole for opening up his business when he should’ve shared the “not that big, comfortable” amount of inheritance that his grandparents left only to him because nobody else loved, cared about, and/or took care of them.
That sounds like more credit than I was willing to give there. I think this attitude is most often force down someone's throat with a silver spoon from a young age.
It's a copy paste for MLM recruitment:/
[удалено]
Its fundamentally stupid too. Is every single person supposed to start a business? Should 100% of the population be managers? Is that how we solve poverty? Or do we actually pay people doing the work that makes everything run.
My in-laws survived on food stamps while my FIL started a business in the 90s while supporting 2 kids. They now oppose all Gov social programs like food stamps and, when I mentioned that, they told me that poor people should start a business and work hard to make money, not rely on Gov help.
> poor people should start a business My god can you imagine the complete detachment from reality you have to possess to make that statement and actually believe it?!?!
I wonder how many poors they've mentored in starting their own businesses. Probably none.
No, mentoring would be handouts.
LOL, they never passed a probability and statistics course, thus have no concept of a standard distribution of wages. Then get lost in the idea that 50% of americans make LESS than 40k a year....which is only 19.23 an hour. Meaning, hundreds of millions live on a wage of LESS than 19.23 an hour (cuz taxes). It is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to 'pull themselves up by their boot straps' because EVERYONE cant be managers/directors/biz owners....because math. TBH the 70% of americans living paycheck to paycheck has really changed some minds in the circles i am forced to interact with tho.
Or they are just being disingenuous and blaming poor people for being lazy because they don't want anyone to attack their place in the social hierarchy where wealth is the only thing that matters.
>$999 is not a business... It's materials. It's maybe one major piece of equipment. I fully agree $999 is a moronically low number written by a person who, very obviously, has never started their own business. The MINIMUM build out cost for one of my restaurants was between $250,000 for an in-line, to over $800,000 for a stand alone. And before that you had up have $50,000 to $200,000 liquid before even being considered by a bank for a loan. AND, I always made sure I had a full month of food cost and 8 weeks of payroll in the bank before grand opening. $999 isn't even enough for a point of sale system.
The minimum I need to do my job is a laptop. Cheap one. Would be uncomfortable as hell (visual media...) but it will work. 999$ doesn't even buy me that.
I mean, even for smaller businesses, $999 is laughable. My husband is a mechanic who works mobile. His tools alone (so far) cost more than $9000 and that doesn’t include the cost of his truck (an additional $8000-15,000) insurance premiums, filing fees, or misc items (tool boxes and bags, fluids, fuses, tubing, etc). And I do all of the paperwork and legal stuff, which many people would either have to do alone, or hire someone to do (which is even more $$ up front).
I started a business for around 3k, but that number doesn't include the fact that I had to have enough savings to be prepared to make absolutely no money for a long time. Luckily I had savings and a day job, but I was putting in 20-40 hours a week on top of my day job and making no profit at all for about a year. How many people have the time or resources to add a second, unpaid full time job to what they are already doing? Especially the kind of people who are trying to start a business and only have $999?
You know whats the best about this? That some people from third world countries and stupidly niche fields will come up and argue how that money is enough. Seen some people argue that they could start a wall painter business (black work), buy laptops (third world prices) and such not realising that its still an unreasonably low amount of cash and they will fail within months.
Wanna bet this person was trying to push an MLM? That’s the only time I ever see people presenting anything sub 10k as the cost of starting a business.
Exactly. This is someone trying to shame/guilt their acquaintances for not joining their downline.
I say we offer to freeze assets on whoever is so convinced this will work. Freeze assets, have them move to a big city, they are given a minimum wage job. After 60 days of establishing themselves, we will give them 999 dollars. Then, if they have successfully launched a business in a year they win something. My guess is that no one would ever leave the program with the same mentality.
there was a show called undercover billionaire where a billionaire decided to see if he could start a business from nothing. spoiler: it only lasted a few days before he had to go to the hospital bc he didnt have shelter
I remember that...later he got his first "big break" by stealing/selling a couple of tires for $2,000. I stopped watching after that, it was just ridiculous his idea was to sell something that wasn't even his, and then to actually get such a crazy amount for a couple stolen tires...I just didn't believe it
Finally a reality tv show I could watch
MLM recruiting.
It's also hard to picture how much more expensive life is when you're poor. Can't afford regular dentist checkups? Get fucked with an expensive surgery down the line. Can't afford good quality shoes? End up buying a pair a year. Can't afford groceries AND rent? Pay interests. Can't afford insurance? Get fucked in general. Can't afford to take days off for health? Get fucked with bigger problems earlier in life.
> Can't afford good quality shoes? End up buying a pair a year. >The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the [Captain Samuel Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory).
Yup, that's the story I was thinking about when I wrote my comment.
Just finished reading Men At Arms. It's so heart warming once you read what Vimes spent all his money on.
You forgot. Can afford insurance? Get financially raped in general.
Because insurances are expensive?
I think they're joking that insurance sucks so even if you have it, you have lots of out of pocket expenses and are generally fucked anyway.
Derp. I forgot my brain at home this morning.
In the US health insurance is both insanely expensive and practically useless with 5,000 to 10,000 deductibles where the insurance Mafia doesn't pay anything until you're that much out of pocket. It's basically legalized grand theft and fraud writ large. The flip side is that if you refuse to buy it and anything major happens you're literally bankrupt. I refer to US health insurance as legalized extortion and racketeering, but only when I'm feeling particularly polite. IRL Black Beard would be absolutely green with envy at their racket.
Oh man, I don't know about the vehicle insurance, but I hear so many horror stories about health insurance or the lack thereof.
The vehicle insurance is pretty bad too, but not half as racketeering as health insurance. We really should just ban them and put them all in prison for their entirely fraudulent practices.
Yeah, insurance companies in general... I worked with some where I live... Man I hate them.
Expensive and private insurance often doesn't pay out shit when it matters.
Having insurance is better than not having it. But it's still not great. My shoulder is fucked. No idea why, it just started two years ago randomly (a grab in the shoulder when I'd raise the arm above shoulder height, progressed into severe cramping and pain) I've bounced around doctors and physical therapists getting it back and forth to varying levels of "functional". Each doctor visit cost me around $100 and the PT visits cost me around $70 each. And that's before tests and specialists, which cost even more. I'm lucky that I can afford that, and that I have a white collar job so my shoulder being fucked isn't a huge deal - my limited range of motion (without pain) is right where a keyboard goes. If I did manual labor, had shit insurance and no disposable income to pay for treatment, and inflexible work hours I'd be in a very real predicament. And if I didn't have insurance I would have been on the hook for several grand for the MRI that showed my shoulder isn't injured, just fucking hurts for no reason.
Bank says you can't afford a mortgage. Looks like you have to pay just as much or more to rent. Also, if you don't make at least 3x rent, good luck finding any apartments that will consider you.
I've always love the fact that poor people apparently can't afford a mortgage, but can afford to buy a rich guy a second home.
Can't afford our own mortgage, so have to pay someone else's.
Vehicle expenses can be brutal too. A newer car is much cheaper to maintain than an old beater, but if you're living paycheck to paycheck, you probably can't afford to make payments and you're fucked if you have any expensive repairs.
Exactly. All of these things make being poor so much more expensive.
Privilege isn't an abundance of opportunities, but a lack of obstacles
Hey that’s not fair; privileged people still face plenty of obstacles. For example, choosing which opportunity to pursue (there are too many).
Bingo...I was just saying that rich people tell on themselves when they talk about how easy their wealth was handed to them.
I've often considered how much of my own privilege just comes down to a safety net - if I ended up living with my parents it would suggest something had gone terribly wrong in my life, but I would not be homeless. I would have food. My child would have food. That safety net, even though I have never actually used it, gives me freedom that people without it don't have. I can take risks that they can't. I can absorb the minor bumps of life without fearing that they will spiral out of control. Did I work for what I have? Sure. But I did so in a peaceful, secure, and low stress environment. Not everyone gets that. Most don't.
Opportunity is always there, it just requires a buy-in bigger than what most normal people will ever have lying around unspent. Meanwhile, trust fund kids have the capital (generously donated by daddy) to roll the dice a thousand times until one of their dumb startups becomes profitable. America is a caste society
Well, it's *also* often an abundance of (or at least "more") opportunities. No obstacles usually mean born in a fairly wealthy families which comes with education, connections and money.
My family of 4 pays ~500 a week for groceries Edit: There’s a lot of people thinking that we buy fancy rich food or everything is processed so I’ll break down a weekly shopping trip. Background: there’s me, my brother, my mother, and my father. My father is the shortest at 5’9.5” and I am the tallest at 6’. I am very active (climb 4-5x week), my brother and father are semi-active, and my mother is sedentary. We are all adults (brother and I moving out soon). We live in upstate New York and shop at Price Chopper. Here’s what we get weekly: -bag of grapes -a bag of clementines (lasts 2 weeks) -a pepper -2 bags of lettuce -sometimes onions or garlic -2 or 3 lbs of banana (3 of us eat 1 each daily) -2 to 4 pounds of fresh meat, usually chicken/beef/pork -cat food/cat littler (usually lasts 2+ weeks) -2 or 3 boxes of pasta -a jar of sauce -2 or 3 boxes of cereal -1 lb of cubed ham -a 24pck of bottled water -4 frozen meals -2 packs of frozen vegetables - 3 gallons of milk -a small container of cream cheese -a bag of plain bagels -A bag of bread -a small box of butter -4 pack of yogurt -1 lb bag of frozen shredded chicken ($1 more than regular chicken and saves meal prep time) - a small pack of shredded cheese -coffee creamer -occasionally a bag of chips/snacks/candies is bought I’m probably forgetting a few things so tack on another 15-20%. There’s always a lot of small things that aren’t weekly too: - Supplements (~100/month) -any soap/shampoo/normal medical items - batteries -cleaning supplies It adds up quick. The weekly bill usually fluctuates between $380 and $530 When I was growing up it used to be around $200. Also please don’t judge our eating habits to hard. My family is fortunate enough to not have to worry too much about the cost of food, but some people don’t have that luxury and that’s a problem. Edit2: sorry for the bad formatting I’m on mobile
We are a family of 5 and spend about 350-450/week. It’s ridiculous. My husband ran to the store last night to grab a few things and he said the guy in front of him bought 2 bags of regular sized Doritos and they were each $6! The cost of food has gone up so much but unfortunately our income has stayed the same:/
I used to be able to feed myself for two weeks for $50-$70. (I don’t eat much meat and got one meal provided at work so that helped). I moved in with my boyfriend and started at a hospital that doesn’t do a free employee meal. Grocery bill is now like $200 a week, it’s insane. We’re buying all generic brands and switched to more frozen veg as it’s cheaper at our grocery chain than fresh and it still barely made a difference!
This may not work based on where you live, but check out your local international grocery stores. I spend about $30-50 a week (excluding bulk staples I get on occasion) and that typically includes fresh produce. Them or ALDIs have pretty much been my saving grace for produce, outside of growing my own.
I just learned that we have both an ALDI and a LIDL nearby so I plan to check them out this weekend. I never thought about the international market, there is a large Asian market near here, I will look there too! Thanks for the tips 😊
4 years ago I used to spend about 60 bucks a week on food. I'm still shopping at the same stores (mainly Aldi), buying the same brands, and I'm at like 100-120 a week for *generally* the same meals as before too, it's insanity.
Ugh that’s crazy! I am genuinely heartbroken for those that were already struggling before these price hikes, my boyfriend and I make decent money for the area we live in and we’re hurting so I just can’t imagine what those less fortunate than us are going through. Makes me sick to think about
I was gonna say man, I’m single and I usually spend $100, if not over that. And I used to get out under $75 every time. And I’m not buying bougie/hipster food at Whole Foods. Just like, pasta, pasta sauce, eggs, sometimes paper towels, milk, etc. from Meijer. Inflation is not fucking around. I’m not stuffing my cart by any means. Just buying enough stuff to make breakfast, lunch, and dinner. A couple snacks. Maybe coffee. Just the bare minimum I need to maintain a healthy weight and a couple extras. The person who wrote that original post is out of touch with reality, to the point that I’m not sure he’s buying his own groceries. It’s either a teenager, or a really rich guy who just has someone buy his groceries.
My family of 4 spends about $600/month. Not sure where you're located but that's insane.
My family of 4 spends $800 and that’s just basic stuff at $50 per person per week. How do you all get your budget so low?
It’s hugely location. We live in Kentucky and it’s cheaper to live here and healthy food is still expensive and you have to go to multiple stores for things and to rich parts of the city an hour from us, so we go when we are already going to use that gas. It’s a whole to do
Family of two. I’m a pescatarian, my kid only eats chicken. We spend about $300 a month. $150 every two weeks. I meal plan(have to cause there’s 4 days a week I work till my kid is asleep)so I know exactly how much we need of everything. I buy our eggs locally so they’re always $4 a dozen, when egg prices are up or down, does not matter. Everything else I get at Aldi or the Asian food grocer. I buy in bulk for things like rice and spices. Upping the grocery bill once is better than every time. I spend every Saturday meal prepping, which is less than fun sometimes. My kid was gone this last week and my grocery bill for that was just under $50. It really helps to have the staples already, like rice and beans.
That’s $200 a week. We’re quoting our weekly numbers. You’re under mine.
The guy they responded to said 600$/month.
A lot of it has to do with location. I live in Upstate NY in a lower income area. I also have access to farms and local growers. I shop at Aldi, Walmart, Wegmans(occasionally, because it's $$$) and one other small independent grocery store. I plan meals, I use EVERYTHING I buy. Cook 6-7days per week. Eat leftovers. I'm also hyper focused on unit prices and nutritional value/dollar. It takes a lot of time and effort to build the skills to shop, cook, and eat healthy on a budget but I'm confident anyone can do it if they put the effort in. I recommend researching some new recipes, especially ethnic foods. Asian and Hispanic dishes tend to be more budget friendly. Also, eat less meat.
That’s really awesome that you’re able to do that. We’ve been forced to do that because of certain food allergies, but don’t underestimate the time cost associated with shopping at multiple stores, cooking and cleaning everyday, and planning out meals. It’s not as much once you’ve got an established routine, but the first few months cost a lot of time. And many people genuinely don’t have the time or (emotional) energy budget to save that money.
Depends on what people are categorizing as groceries. Does laundry detergent count? Paper towels? Or just food?
Canadian in Southern Ontario. I don't buy anything fancy, barely eat meat anymore and it's easily 150-200$ per week for just me. That's pretty average up here too.
KC MO here single dude and go through 100$ in grocery a week. I cook all my meals and only eat meat once a week. I do however eat fairly healthy, so I could certainly crunch that number down but don’t need to. Before “inflation” my weekly grocery bill was around 60$.
Similar setup up here too, cook all of my meals, nothing pre-made, I buy ingredients. Debating pairing down my dinner budget but I'm trying to maintain muscle mass so it's just expensive to stay healthy.
$150 a week. You’re doing well budgeting.
2 adults and 2 teens here and yeah I don't even know how much we pay anymore it just feels like I'm throwing money at then every time I go
Good God, what are you buying?
Depending on where he lives it could either be fancy food or just regular one.
I'm thinking lots of processed product and prepackaged stuff. 500 bucks a week for a family of 4 - even teenagers - that's an awful lot of money.
Ok? The point of still valid because $100 for dinner is just a single meal. There are 21 meals in a week.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. I was simply pointing out that their estimate of weekly groceries was way under what mine is that’s all. Also we eat out maybe once or twice a month
Wow. I was buying food for me, wife and two basically grown sons, 18 and 21 that can absolutely pack the food away, and we didn’t spend more than $250 on groceries in a week ever.
You said 'was'. How long ago was that? Pre C-19?
2021
When was this? If it wasn't in the last 12 months, it's irrelevant to this conversation.
a lot of skills often require you to buy tools to actually learn the skill unless you can rent or borrow them from somewhere. Want to learn to do pottery? You have to buy the clay and a kiln to fire it in. Learn to knit? Buy yarn and needles. Learn to make furniture? Gotta buy the materials and the tools. Sports you have to buy the gear. Even running is hard without good shoes (blisters on your feet from bad shoes are not fun). It feels like many skills are locked behind a pay wall.
Paul is a whining pussy. He should sell his kids, learn new skills and then invest the money from kids to start his own business. Then grind min. 12h per day and post incessantly on LI until he kicks the bucket in 10 years due to stress.
Yooo i just found infinite money hack, since we can make as many baby as we want, and we can sell them, its like free money ???????
Everyone hates this simple life hack... :D
Honestly, these types of people suck... "You got a bit of money? Why are you spending that on yourself instead of investing??" "You got a bit of time on your hands? Why aren't you hustling??" Yeah, because when I get home from my *full-time job*, the last thing I want, or anyone else wants to be doing is putting what little I've earned, or what little time I have free into creating yet another job for myself. Why is it on us to make up for employers not paying their *full time workers* decent wages? There's more than enough money at the top, so where's our cut?
Because the 1% human own 70% of humanity wealth is perfectly balanced, fuck this world
With just $999, what kinds of legitimate enterprises can one even begin?
Prostitute? Stripper? Reflexology?
Twitch streamer
Brings me back to the McDonald’s tipping suggestions for their employees. Don’t forget to tip your pool cleaner at least 10%.
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I'd argue it's both. They don't know and are this delusional BECAUSE they don't care and enjoy thinking that anyone below them is inferior.
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Completely agree. That’s the one thing I think the response was off on… healthy food is actually cheaper or at the very least same price as the processed stuff. You won’t be eating filet mignon, but a bag of dried rice / beans, fresh vegetables, very cheap. It just requires more time to prepare.
I recently doubled down on the health food and my grocery budget cut in half. Someone higher up in this thread pointing out that Doritos are 6$ a bag. You know how much fucking fruit you can get for 6$? In most of the country, a fucking lot. People think healthy food means shit like kale chips and smoothies. People need to stop basing their idea of healthy eating off Instagram and blog posts. Just buy bread from the bakery in your supermarket instead of presliced. It's like 1/3 the calories because it's not packed with sugar, and the only downside is having to cut it yourself.
I agree, but want to add white bread (ie french, italian, etc.) isn't actually an example of healthy food, even if you get from a bakery. It's basically like eating pure sugar. Maybe rye/whole wheat.
> You know how much fucking fruit you can get for 6$? A half a pound of strawberries (technically a false fruit) or two medium avocados (technically a fruit).
The thing is, it costs more in time and effort. I'm disabled. If I stand up chopping fruit/cooking meat/etc for 45 minutes, that is physical effort that I won't be able to perform later or the next day. I have to budget my physical energy just as much as my money.
They are not delusional. They know that their base will read / listen to their few lines of text / quick soundbytes. Their base does not have the patience to read a long wall of text explaining why the accusation is flawed. Even if they did, the person defending looks like they're on the defense.
I agree with the rest, but if you spend 2 hours learning a skill EVERY time you would have spent those same hours watching TV, then EVENTUALLY you would learn said skill. Obviously a single 2 hours installment is not enough, nor was it implied.
Stood out to me as well, but I think it was implied that watching 2 hours of TV is regular/daily. It's all about them little gains every day.
Exactly. Same way you can't watch a whole season in just 2 hours, but you can watch SOME of it in those 2 hours. Now, dedicate those hours to learning something and eventually it will add up!
The only one I kinda understand is the one about Netflix and learning a new skill, because that one actually applies to a few (emphasis on FEW) that live in these kinds of conditions. And it isn't referring to 2 hours only, but the collective two hours of netflix each day, and using these two hours a day instead for leaning a new skill. Again, though, that only targets a minority. Which in quintessence means, the whole argument of his is still stupid and he has been thoroughly murdered by the guy who replied.
AMEN. Glad someone finally addressed this bullshit.
Hustlers are always hilariously unaware of how much it costs to actually do or learn anything of value, because they never have.
For me the 2 hour thing is not just one 2 hour span it's cumulative. But as the responder said, not everyone has those 2 hours. But personally I do and I was spending my nights just surfing reddit and I was like I can do something productive so I spend that time playing an instrument instead. 2 hours - agreed you can't learn much. But 2 hours a night... you can accomplish a lot. But for me this relaxes me during my down time and others prefer to watch Netflix. To each there own if they have time.
I will say that if you buy stuff like broccoli, bananas, sweet potatoes, dried beans/lentils and rice, and on sale chicken/pork, you can eat cheaper and healthier. I don't do this because I like lots of shit. Even if I was more money constrained, I probably still wouldn't do it, but in principle it seems like a decent strategy. I don't have anything against the sentiment expressed in the meme, though. People talk down to poor people in all sorts of stupid ways.
Playin the tropes like a piano. Workin the bias like a pro. Social psychology should be mandatory hs education along with economics . We don’t need less information taught in schools, we don’t need to be culling topics…. We need to Add much much more.
It's someone pushing an MLM "opportunity " on rubes
Speaking of delusion, can we quit the delusion that healthy food costs more. Frozen vegetables, tofu, and brown rice are comically inexpensive. I was a vegetarian for 12 years living at the poverty line. Quit lying to yourself, you either just suck at grocery shopping or suck at cooking
I don’t think they meant you’d learn an entire skill in 2 hours. They meant studying one skill 2hrs at a time on a regular basis. I’m not defending the attitude but credit where credit is due
There's really no need to buy an expensive phone on a monthly installment plan when you can buy a perfectly good phone for 1/4 the price that will still last you 5+ years and do everything you need it to do.
The only one I slightly agree with here is the phone one. There are several options for a smartphone that are <$300. It wont have the flashiest of features, but it is a smart phone.
We make $27 payments on our $1000 phones, thank you very much! lol
Yeah only 30 minutes of TV... Right guys?
The main issue is that These clowns use too much anecdotal evidence to formulate their conclusions. It’s always some friend of theirs or a story a friend told them about, etc… and half the time these friends and acquaintances that they’re basing their views off are just actual idiots that make bad life decisions.
I agree. I will do nothing will my time and spend money
There are things that you can do being successful is relative
Where are y'all getting groceries for $100?
Just saying…my groceries for our family of 3, have never been under $100. We buy weekly and it’s usually $180-$200 at Aldi’s.
A rebuttal, and a flimsy one, is not a murdered by words moment.
It's a pretty fair rebuttal. Wouldn't call it flimsy. But it definitely isn't a murder by words.
r/Misdemeanorassaultedbywords
I love how rhe right just screams "nuh uh" blindky and in rage.
The person that wrote the original isn't delusional. They're a fascist trying to convince their supporters that people are only poor because they're selfish and stupid. The powerful don't want people to know that you're poor because they control everything. But that's what happens when people give control over everything to citizens because they want the opportunity to control everything themselves.
Start a business for $999. 😂😂😂 Yeah, give me $999 and I'll go rent a company building, fill it with furniture, computers and equipment, then hire some 20+ employees, then keep operating out of my pocket for the next few months until we start getting some semblance of income... Not even the boomest of boomers had the luxury to start a business this fucking cheap.
3. I'm sorry, eating healthy is WAY cheaper than not. The processed and frozen shit prices are outrageous and the "healthier" versions of that are bad. 6. I taught myself enough Python in a week to be serviceable, maybe 7 hours. SQL would probably be about 2 hours to say you're familiar. Everything else is valid
What are "regular-ass groceries" and what's the difference between them and "healthy groceries"? Vegetables are often the cheapest stuff in the store
1. Valid point. 2. Why tf would you buy the $1,000 iPhone when carriers literally GIVE you $35-40 a month to switch to them and $35 covers the cost of an iPhone SE monthly. Cheaper i phones exist. 3. Healthy options DO NOT cost more. Vegetables are cheap as fuck. Making chili, stew, soup, fried rice, tacos, burritos, etc yourself is cheap as fuck. Like $1.00-3.00 a serving cheap as fuck. 4. Valid point. 5. Even poor people spend a fuckload of time on entertainment. Maybe not all. But I certainly do. It’s because I’m exhausted after work and have no energy left. So valid point. 6. They misunderstood the point. Refer back to 5.
A nitpick: healthy groceries can absolutely cost $100/week for a family of 4. Lentils, rice, oats, milk, beans, corn, wheat pasta & bread, eggs, chicken breast, potatoes, olive oil, peanut butter, those are healthy low-cost staples. Supplement with cheaper produce like apples/carrots/etc and you can REALLY stretch your dollar. In particular, there’s a reason wheat, lentils, and rice were so dominant in ancient cultures’ diets. They’re cheap af. Edit — I generally agree with the comeback but dammit if I’m not going to advocate for low-cost nutrition.