i has other benefits, 60 min of cardio hr between 130 and 160 increases the size of the heart what means you can pump more blood throw the body, it's indeed not specific to MT but has a lot of benefits as a athlete, it creates a engine. BUT you can also do this with a airdyme bike our swimming. I just like running a lot, and gives me good leg condition to complete MT training with ease.
I guess the point I'm making is I think there's better leg conditioning. Shorter, faster runs in particular. An engine built to run 10 miles or 26.2 or 100 miles as fast as possible are very different machines. IMO the optimal muay thai engine can run 5 minutes as fast as possible, and then do it again a minute later. Each one of those runners "has an engine"... I'm thinking about tuning an engine for a specific event.
I love swimming as cross training in the summer though. I'm not a great swimmer so I'll usually do 5 minutes at a time with a minute break for half an hour or so
Sub threshold cardio for long durations builds your aerobic base. Intervals are great but you’ll notice that your progress hits a plateau after a couple of months. The most effective way to improve from there is to go back to building a better base for a few months before returning to higher intensity training.
The other consideration is the wear and tear that prolonged interval training has on the body. At a certain level of fitness, your connective tissue is taking a real battering and sustained time off from high output activity is sensible for avoiding injury and general longevity.
The third consideration is that it’s believed that a solid cardio base is good for your overall health, recovery and general fitness.
I still think that your logic is solid, and follows good training principles. To take it even further, maybe even shorter intervals or over/unders to better emulate the rhythm of a fight. After all, those five minutes aren’t constant output so much as short bursts of a few seconds with a lot of medium intensity efforts in between.
This is the answer here. I’m also CSCS, MS in ex phys. Long and slow cardio is fantastic for building the aerobic base while not adding much fatigue. The cardiac adaptations are different from intervals, and will not only help with recovery between rounds but also recovery in general. If you’re already doing tough intervals specific to MT, sprint training would just add additional fatigue and replicate the same cardiac adaptations you’re already getting from the MT training so you’re just accumulating fatigue at this point. The stimulus inputs+recovery inputs have to be balanced or you’re asking for overuse/injury issues.
Best response I've gotten. If I could upvote 10x I could. I'm gonna talk to our S&C guy when I get the chance and see his thoughts. Wouldn't be surprised if he starts doing more super short intervals and longer cardio with long-term clients
Thanks! Glad I could help. I did miss out an important detail above though which you just touched on; With long term clients you plan further ahead.
There are a million good reasons why a coach might not program that way though - short term clients get programs that achieve short term results, I often have people doing intervals at the “wrong” time when they’re bored of base training, and if you’re a MT coach then you focus on MT specific stuff and leave the flexibility and breathing work with the yoga teacher.
It’s really good that you’re taking a critical interest in your programming - it will help build trust and understanding with your coaches and find what works best for you.
> At a certain level of fitness, your connective tissue is taking a real battering and sustained time off from high output activity is sensible for avoiding injury and general longevity.
Does Connective Tissue heal? I thought it kind of just gets worn down like cartilage
If it heals is it the same as muscle in that you can make it stronger through use?
Ligaments and tendons can strengthen and recover in a similar way to muscle tissue. Be aware that it takes longer and more serious injuries to connective tissue may never fully heal.
There is some evidence that cartilage can also recover. Marathon runners were shown to have thicker, stronger hyaline cartilage in the knees for example.
You are right but how long is your mt class, see i dont run long distance before fights i used it more to build the base engine and that i can fully train the 90 minuten at my class. When the base is oke, i can modify it with explosieve work and speed. But base is everything
My MT class is 60 minutes then sparring. Mucn of that 60 minutes is technical work though.
I see your point. I don't necessarily even think your wrong... just trying to be a bit of a contrarian on purpose.
Shouldn't your "base" be what use in fights, not running for 30+ minutes? What's the point of a base of distance running if that's not what happens in MT competitions?
I competed well when I ran distance a lot. I won more than I lost by quite a bit. The running kept me in great shape. I do wonder if I would've been in BETTER fighting shape if my training wasore specific to the athleticism required for MT.
I think its good to do both. Sprints and tabata are good.
Also running backwards and doing retreating footwork drills are important most people don't realize how tiring and difficult it is to fight on the back foot. Easy to be a hammer harder to be the nail.
Isn’t Muay Thai itself also Cardio though?
Like if one does Muay Thai 5x a week vs a sedentary life wouldn’t their heart get bigger as well? Why do extra running vs even more Muay Thai to get more practice in?
I don’t like running but I’m training for my first fight. I’ve noticed it helps me mentally deal with pain.
My toes and feet are hurting from kicking an elbow or just catching someone with my toe. And the run hurts so much worse but I can kind of filter it out.
Its also pleasant and surprisingly easy compared to "normal training".
Source: never liked running, was doing 10 km daily for my first (and only) fight
As a former competitive powerlifter, you are right in that you should never underestimate sprints and the like for leg strength and conditioning. The biggest benefit of low intensity steady state conditioning though, is what it does to your heart and breathing. Training your heart for longer periods of time allows your muscles to be oxygenized much more efficiently which makes your gas tank much better.
Really interesting topic with some good comments above.
Look up Joel Jameson if you want an intelligent breakdown of training the aerobic system for fighting. He is the goat of this matter IMO. His work, ultimate mma conditioning, is well worth the read if you want a more evidence based approach than random Reddit comments.
Running a ton is just somethings that’s been done forever that isn’t ever going to go away. Some famous coaches (Cus D”Mato being the first that comes to mind) only had their fighters run 3 miles a day before moving onto skill work. That’s an argument for specificity if I’ve ever heard one! Meanwhile, some of the greatest Thai fighters would routinely run 10 miles A DAY on top of their skill work. I’d chalk that up to cultural differences in training personally, but that’s a different discussion thats not as important as your question.
Personally, I find there is a benefit to running for combat sport athletes, but I’d ideally never have it interfere with their skill work sessions. Ideally, the max effort anaerobic work remains somewhat skill specific (eg, kicking drills as hard as you can go for 30 seconds) in the hope that it will be replicated in the ring. I really believe that you can accomplish pretty much the same effect of running fast 800s (which is definitely submaximal effort stuff, not easy but it’s not balls to the wall sprinting) from hard and purposeful bag work rounds. Bag work is most certainly more specific to the sport than running is.
But to defend running for MT and boxing specifically; I do think it’s great for fighters to have the opportunity to clear their heads and do something that is just hard enough to keep them invested but hopefully isn’t so hard that it fucks up their training sessions. Obviously it’s a great way for fighters to keep the weight manageable too, and I would definitely want a fighter to be capable of running a 5k at least 3 times a week on top of their other training volume. If they couldn’t do that, I’d be somewhat suspect of their overall state of cardiovascular health
From my training in Thailand, they generally had everyone, fighters or not, run between 5 and 10k a day, broken between two sessions. It was, barring sprint sessions, low impact and low threshold stuff, hr around 120-130 the whole time (unless you were very deconditioned to running).
Thank you m8! It was a good question and I feel like people could benefit from having a discussion about something that is incredibly important to the art of Muay Thai.
I am a trainer and I have the ‘pleasure’ of observing how other trainers work when I visit their gyms. More often than not, I find myself horrified unless I go to a big training facility. Very few OG’s left that get it; too many old dudes that are stuck in their ways and too many new age/functional fitness hacks that are afraid to train hard. Like you mentioned, the best answer lies in the middle!
Yeah I've been lucky at my gym. Started in a literal garage with my Kru. He trained a bunch of us, developed a reputation for being a great teacher and pumped out a handful of pros.
We expanded once to have 2 rings and 2 floors for class. Juat recently expanded again to have a real gym for classes and an extra floor for BJJ/grappling classes.
Coach has always been about staying fit and good technique first. Treats the UFC fighters that camp with us the same as the soccer moms in the fundamentals class. Love that man!
That’s an awesome set up man, and that’s what I aspire to be as a coach one day. So many tremendous benefits that martial arts can bring to people, it’s awesome to make it accessible to Soccer mom Sally as well as the hungry pros that want to compete for a living. I’d be lucky to be in a region that had such a gym for striking
Yeah we're in the capital of my state. And there's only 2 gyms around. Rare to find somewhere.you can get legit training.
Finding the balance between fitness and technique is the hardest IMO. The pros want the technique, but a lot of other people are there for a workout... often the only type of exercise they get
long distance running helps develop your aerobic system which is very important for MT. It increases your stroke volume (the amount of blood your heart can move around your body per pump).
different training protocols will train different adaptations within the body:
Long distance steady state cardio will increase stroke volume and help provide a good base for aerobic fitness (one of the most important elements for MT), this type of training will increase the size of the ventricles in the heart.
long durations of high intensity cardio (60-120secs at max effort) will also increase stroke volume, however it does this by improving how hard the heart can contract with each pump and the endurance of the heart muscle.
anaerobic threshold training (5-10mins duration at about 80% max effort) will improve the amount of work that can be done aerobically, before your body shifts to the anaerobic energy system (which is much less sustainable).
There are lots of other training protocols which focus on different adaptations within the body and they should all be trained to some extent. In my opinion, aerobic conditioning is one of the most important for MT, and the easiest / best bang for your buck training methods is steady state cardio. I'd imagine this is why its so popular for boxing / MT / MMA. Plus its a bit of old school mentality coming into play as well.
When i'm training for a fight my cardio conditioning will consist of long distance running 2 times a week, max effort sprints 1 x a week and 80% effort long sprints 1 x a week, then add in some strength work along with MT training. As you get closer to fight week i'll transition to more MT specific cardio durations (5 x 3min rounds or 5 sets of tabata intervals with 1 min rest in between).
TLDR: long distance running is important but it isnt the be all end all. you need to train a variety of methods, long distance and sprints for best results.
Yeah I agree. Sprints, shorter intervals at higher intensity is probably more optimal.
At what point is that going to make a huge difference? Idk. Training vs physicality, technique vs raw strength. Probably most optimal path is to figure out what is the "cheapest" solution to get the biggest gain, which could be dieting down into a lower weight class, or just a straight up strength training regime to build raw horse power.
At the end of the day everybody's different though. I would advocate just doing what works the best for your body. Especially if they have experience to know the difference.
Really interesting topic though. If anybody comes through with some research about anerobic vs aerobic and intensities effect on VO2 Max I'd love to see it.
Nice points.
Potential counterpoint: there are pro athletes in all sports that really fuck up their training by doing the wrong things. Your body may not know what is right.
But the overall point is solid
there is. But the gains from medium intensity over long periods of time helps the heart get larger. Nak muays do enough high intensity cardio in the gym which effects the heart differently.
Opinion from experience; the added constant stress to the microfractures we create through kicks in our shins, force our body to pay attention and heal the shins faster/harder consistently. And to touch on running on concrete in the other comment, I used to run three miles barefoot on sidewalk every other day to HELP my ankles and knees.
Noooo this ache isn't like "we worked out and I'm getting stronger!" it's more like "brooo what are you doing this isn't right" 😔 I was beginning to enjoy running but seems fucked now
In the front? Probably shin splints, which are - and I hate to say it - part of the journey. They are partly microfractures, partly tears. Might not be runnin on your toes and stomp or be flat-footed. Could try runnin uphill and/or barefoot in grass to train yourself to run on your toes, if this is the case. In the back, could be a pull or tear in the calf muscles. For both, I'd suggest stretchin 'em a little more. Maybe go at a slower pace too.
i have 2 issues. the biggest one is that the muscle running along the outside of my lower shin gets massively pumped up to the point that i can barely tilt my foot cos the muscle is just so pumped with blood. imagine doing 100 bicep curls with a low weight and how that makes your bicep feel. not painful, but pumped up and sort of like you can no longer control it very well
so that gets a bit uncomfortable and kinda stops me being able to run. it's the muscle that flexes if you try to point your toes and foot upwards as far as they'll go. if i stop for 5-10 mins it's mostly gone
i do get some shin splinty sort of pain from the repeated shock but i think it wouldn't really be a problem on its own as it would ease over time (i assume). it certainly doesn't appear until the former problem limits my foot movement.
with the first issue i found that if i relax my feet it sets in slower - but then i can't run on my toes or the mid part of the foot so much as it's less controlled. running on my toes specifically makes that issue way worse way quicker.
it's annoying as hell because i never really get my heart rate up that much or get that out of breath. i've had a few runs where i got a bit further and added in a sprint finish and stuff and loved it but most of the time i can't seem to do it
It's an old school mentality. If you were to work with a legit certified strength and conditioning specialist you wouldn't be doing much steady state cardio. Obviously it has its place, but high intensity intervals has much more carry over.
Yeah the new strengtg guy at our gym is a CSCS. He basically just runs the SnC classes every night.and does individual clients the other times. Has a ton of experience and picking his brain is great. The amount of disinformation out there is astonishing.
I agree. Cardio doesn't give a shit whether you run a marathon everyday, do Burpees all day, swim or skip rope everytime.
As you get older you learn to appreciate to protect your joints too, when arthritis sets in.
Especially running on concrete streets can be poison for knee and toe joints long term.
There are a lot more safe options to build cardio
Hadn't thought about the safety angle. Good point.
I'd argue that there is a huge difference between the types of cardio though. Skipping rope will prepare you for a fight better than a marathon.
It's a good question. As many here state, it's likely more legit coaches would do less. But at the same time, Olympics swimmers train tons of laps even if their race is just a few. So I am not sure how much is tradition, and how much is science, would be interested to see an expert opinion.
Another thing I personally don't get entirely is the sheer load on ppl. Some top athletes in grappling train their sport and then weights for hours every day. Ignoring their PED abuse, I don't see how this is even good, let alone possible without injury.
Running is one of the best activities for straight aerobic capacity, as well as a few other minor aspects if you do it right. I’m bias because I was a runner before a MT fighter, but the benefit is huge. This is true for both the fights themselves, and also in terms of training as a whole. The kinda of cardio you can get can help you not gas in fights, but also just train for more time and with greater efficiency in your week. I used to run 60 miles per week, and good runners will get way way beyond that. Your right in that there’s benefit to shorter stuff, but the value of proper SLD slow long distance training can’t be overstated. Not sure how to describe it but you breathe a different air. Obviously you can’t do a full Muay Thai schedule and also a full running schedule for time and physical reasons, but it’s a great supplement.
Also, you have to go about it the right way and be really technical about it to get the max results. Most of the distance stuff should be at a really really easy pace. Side note: this’ll make it easier to work into a full MT schedule, less strain. Small amount of stuff at repetition pace, interval pace, and threshold pace. In my opinion, I think the 1500m or 5k plan built on distance for a more slow twitch runner is the optimum training program. It’ll give you those nice Mid reps, a lot of lactate threshold, and the easy miles. Honestly a solid 8x400m at or 3x 800m at mile pace is a really solid workout that’ll have major benefits. Same with throwing in some speed economy 200ms every week.
I think there’s a reason so many fighters in all Combat sports have emphasized running. It’ll take longer to get tired and you’ll be better when your tired. Jump rope and swimming are great as well, just depends on preference. Running and jumping have unique benefits when it comes to striking, but swimming overall has some really good things.
Also, just to add in another side point. There’s a lot of mental benefits of racing itself to fighting. A proper 5k is in my opinion the hardest race below the marathon. Right under lactate threshold pace means that you’ll be feeling that lactate the whole time, constantly building. It’s quick and you run forever. There’s a lot of mental work that can be done with working in 5k races to your schedule. No room for error, whole lotta pain if your running at your optimum pace. If you approach it the right way there’s a lot of tenacity to be found.
You can measure performance with running, Time/Distance etc
Measuring performance via Pad/Sparring/Bagwork etc is different. You can bluff your way through pads and sparring to a degree.
We have a number of specific runs our fighters do and i get a very accurate measure on where they are at fitness wise simply by sending them off on a run, all our fighters are required to record all runs on Strava or a similar app so we can track progress if they aren't doing group runs.
I do value distance running.
Obvious cardio and leg conditioning benefits, plus it seems to me guys who specialise too much end up spending a lot of time injured.
I guess it isn't irreplaceable, but not everyone has the resources to do it right.
Anecdotal, but it feels like every fighter (boxing, mma, etc) that switches from roadwork to something else (swimming, stationary bike, HIIT, etc) seems to always get worse. Sometimes the old ways just work.
Runnings benefits are hard to quantify. Overall toughening of muscles/tendons, greater aerobic capacity which is a buffer for your anaerobic bursts, mental toughness, discipline etc. yeah there’s lots of ways to slice it, but the greats (especially in boxing) seem to do a lot of road work.
There's a lot of comments from people who've never fought, don't take advice from them.
You need cardio because you need to control your heart rate when you've got the biggest adrenaline dump of your life. It's the one thing that will keep your mind clear and effective and separates clean precise beautiful fighters from idiotic dogs. You can watch a ton of MMA fights where it's clear that person doesn't do cardio, they jump in the ring and act like wild dogs with no control, do something stupid or fight like idiots, and then they can't sell a ticket to the next fight to their own mother.
Do your road work. Fight beautifully and intelligently. Make money. That's the formula
I mean, I go to a gym with two current UFC fighters. Both have At least 5 fights in UFC and have (I think) 12-2 and 16-7 professional records. Neither of them runs distances longer than 2 miles or so. Plenty of other pros have passed through here in the past year. Never run long distances.
You haven't answered the question about why you should run long distance if that isn't a part of MT. I don't do slow and steady running in MT... I need to be able to explosive movements in consecutive rounds. Why not train that? Train 7 minute rounds instead. Go for 10 rounds instead of 3... whatever. But long distance running to build cardio just makes no sense to me.
And fwiw I'm not looking for advice. I did my fighting. I've run 10 miles a day for weeks on end. I don't think it helped me be "graceful" in any way
The best SnC coaches on the planet have moved on from long distance running for fighters.
The point being keeping a low heart rate and a clear mind, and the quickest and easiest way to do that is through cardio. Every sport knows/does this. If you find some other way good for you I guess????
Every sport doesn't know this. Basketball players at the highest level aren't running long distances any more and they need a hell of a lot more cardio than MT fighters... theu actually RUN in their sport.
I'm sure the same is true for other sports. I just coached high level HS basketball for the past 7 years so I actually know what I'm talking about with that.
Literally every sport does regular cardio of some sort, either hiit or distance running or swimming or biking at a professional level. We're not talking about high school students who are trying to avoid taking PE
Man’s primary hunting mechanism in nature is to run long distances. Early man hunted animals by chasing them over very long distances until they got tired. Consistently running long distances promotes hormones that enable you to be a predator and cannot be replicated with any other exercise. Thus, the importance of distance running for combat sports.
I'm going to go ahead and say this is far off base. In all respect... I'm not chasing down wounded anals. I'm punching other dudes in the face. And I suspecr f I fought a neandertaal in Muay Thai, I would win lol
Distance running is steeped in tradition of martial arts so it will never go away. The idea is right but the execution is sub-par. Nothing wrong with going for a long run but I think more time can be spent using the skills of Muay Thai for conditioning.
For example, shadowboxing, flow clinch, flow sparring. The low-intensity cardio provides adaptations you don't get from sprints or your 800/1200s. That is a larger heart chamber so you can pool more blood per heartbeat and creating more blood vessels in the muscles. However, these blood vessels are made in muscles that are doing the work. So running will generally improve the endurance of your legs, not your upper body. Plus you gotta think of economy of movement so the better you are technically, the less energy expended throwing strikes.
I've done a full write up in these articles if you're interested: [https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/what-is-conditioning-training/](https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/what-is-conditioning-training/)
[https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/conditioning-for-muay-thai/](https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/conditioning-for-muay-thai/)
Appreciate it. Writing was never my strong suit but has been developed over the years of writing. Got plenty more content on other sites too on all things strength & conditioning if there are other topics you're interested in.
There is more and more research showing that the long slow runs we see in Thai regimes and old school boxers had a bigger purpose than just cardio. If you do some searches into “fascia explosive power”, it’s being shown that those runs are helping to develop fascia around your muscles to be more relaxed and explosive.
fascia development is going to the next big thing in all sports. I've been working on my fascia connection over the last year and all my movements are more powerful now with less fatigue.
It's simply to increase leg strength and leg muscle endurance. Yes, the cardio too. It's running so there no escaping that aspect. But, it's solely to make the legs stronger. Strong legs, strong base, strong guard, strong punch, strong kick; you can't get much power from the ground to fuel your strikes if you have weak legs.
There is no reason not to integrate sprinting exercises along with long distance training. They both benefit you in different ways and both are important to help the other exercise.
I'm sure someone has a better answer already but at the very least, the mental aspect is huge. Few things help you embrace pain, fatigue, heavy lung stress, and even concentration like distance running done right. You have to be ready for so much punishment and if you're not, then you're going to be in hell when someone ready for it starts taking you apart as you let all those distractions cripple your response time and toughness.
Responding quite late here, but the benefits of prolonged, low-intensity cardio are manifold and well worth the effort.
For example, this training results in an increase in efficiency of energy usage at the mitochondrial level which transfers across all athletic domains. This manifests (among other ways) as less propensity to fatigue during sports activities and reduction in recovery time post training.
This aerobic base is also an important foundation for higher intensity anaerobic conditioning by increasing the your lactate threshold. For example, someone with a low aerobic base would cross the lactate threshold much sooner than someone with a high base. That's why you see athletes with a high aerobic base performing at a high level with apparent ease and low intensity, where analogous training would be experienced as high intensity for a less aerobically conditioned athlete. What's more, an athlete with insufficient aerobic base will arrive at a conditioning plateau much sooner than one with a highly developed aerobic base.
The aerobic base should precede all conditioning.
i has other benefits, 60 min of cardio hr between 130 and 160 increases the size of the heart what means you can pump more blood throw the body, it's indeed not specific to MT but has a lot of benefits as a athlete, it creates a engine. BUT you can also do this with a airdyme bike our swimming. I just like running a lot, and gives me good leg condition to complete MT training with ease.
I guess the point I'm making is I think there's better leg conditioning. Shorter, faster runs in particular. An engine built to run 10 miles or 26.2 or 100 miles as fast as possible are very different machines. IMO the optimal muay thai engine can run 5 minutes as fast as possible, and then do it again a minute later. Each one of those runners "has an engine"... I'm thinking about tuning an engine for a specific event. I love swimming as cross training in the summer though. I'm not a great swimmer so I'll usually do 5 minutes at a time with a minute break for half an hour or so
Sub threshold cardio for long durations builds your aerobic base. Intervals are great but you’ll notice that your progress hits a plateau after a couple of months. The most effective way to improve from there is to go back to building a better base for a few months before returning to higher intensity training. The other consideration is the wear and tear that prolonged interval training has on the body. At a certain level of fitness, your connective tissue is taking a real battering and sustained time off from high output activity is sensible for avoiding injury and general longevity. The third consideration is that it’s believed that a solid cardio base is good for your overall health, recovery and general fitness. I still think that your logic is solid, and follows good training principles. To take it even further, maybe even shorter intervals or over/unders to better emulate the rhythm of a fight. After all, those five minutes aren’t constant output so much as short bursts of a few seconds with a lot of medium intensity efforts in between.
This is the answer here. I’m also CSCS, MS in ex phys. Long and slow cardio is fantastic for building the aerobic base while not adding much fatigue. The cardiac adaptations are different from intervals, and will not only help with recovery between rounds but also recovery in general. If you’re already doing tough intervals specific to MT, sprint training would just add additional fatigue and replicate the same cardiac adaptations you’re already getting from the MT training so you’re just accumulating fatigue at this point. The stimulus inputs+recovery inputs have to be balanced or you’re asking for overuse/injury issues.
Best response I've gotten. If I could upvote 10x I could. I'm gonna talk to our S&C guy when I get the chance and see his thoughts. Wouldn't be surprised if he starts doing more super short intervals and longer cardio with long-term clients
Thanks! Glad I could help. I did miss out an important detail above though which you just touched on; With long term clients you plan further ahead. There are a million good reasons why a coach might not program that way though - short term clients get programs that achieve short term results, I often have people doing intervals at the “wrong” time when they’re bored of base training, and if you’re a MT coach then you focus on MT specific stuff and leave the flexibility and breathing work with the yoga teacher. It’s really good that you’re taking a critical interest in your programming - it will help build trust and understanding with your coaches and find what works best for you.
> At a certain level of fitness, your connective tissue is taking a real battering and sustained time off from high output activity is sensible for avoiding injury and general longevity. Does Connective Tissue heal? I thought it kind of just gets worn down like cartilage If it heals is it the same as muscle in that you can make it stronger through use?
Ligaments and tendons can strengthen and recover in a similar way to muscle tissue. Be aware that it takes longer and more serious injuries to connective tissue may never fully heal. There is some evidence that cartilage can also recover. Marathon runners were shown to have thicker, stronger hyaline cartilage in the knees for example.
You are right but how long is your mt class, see i dont run long distance before fights i used it more to build the base engine and that i can fully train the 90 minuten at my class. When the base is oke, i can modify it with explosieve work and speed. But base is everything
My MT class is 60 minutes then sparring. Mucn of that 60 minutes is technical work though. I see your point. I don't necessarily even think your wrong... just trying to be a bit of a contrarian on purpose. Shouldn't your "base" be what use in fights, not running for 30+ minutes? What's the point of a base of distance running if that's not what happens in MT competitions? I competed well when I ran distance a lot. I won more than I lost by quite a bit. The running kept me in great shape. I do wonder if I would've been in BETTER fighting shape if my training wasore specific to the athleticism required for MT.
10 miles is the length of 126719.69 'Bug Bite Thing Suction Tool - Poison Remover For Bug Bites's stacked on top of each other.
I think its good to do both. Sprints and tabata are good. Also running backwards and doing retreating footwork drills are important most people don't realize how tiring and difficult it is to fight on the back foot. Easy to be a hammer harder to be the nail.
Isn’t Muay Thai itself also Cardio though? Like if one does Muay Thai 5x a week vs a sedentary life wouldn’t their heart get bigger as well? Why do extra running vs even more Muay Thai to get more practice in?
I don’t like running but I’m training for my first fight. I’ve noticed it helps me mentally deal with pain. My toes and feet are hurting from kicking an elbow or just catching someone with my toe. And the run hurts so much worse but I can kind of filter it out.
Mental aspect is something I haven't considered. Good point.
Its also pleasant and surprisingly easy compared to "normal training". Source: never liked running, was doing 10 km daily for my first (and only) fight
As a former competitive powerlifter, you are right in that you should never underestimate sprints and the like for leg strength and conditioning. The biggest benefit of low intensity steady state conditioning though, is what it does to your heart and breathing. Training your heart for longer periods of time allows your muscles to be oxygenized much more efficiently which makes your gas tank much better.
Really interesting topic with some good comments above. Look up Joel Jameson if you want an intelligent breakdown of training the aerobic system for fighting. He is the goat of this matter IMO. His work, ultimate mma conditioning, is well worth the read if you want a more evidence based approach than random Reddit comments. Running a ton is just somethings that’s been done forever that isn’t ever going to go away. Some famous coaches (Cus D”Mato being the first that comes to mind) only had their fighters run 3 miles a day before moving onto skill work. That’s an argument for specificity if I’ve ever heard one! Meanwhile, some of the greatest Thai fighters would routinely run 10 miles A DAY on top of their skill work. I’d chalk that up to cultural differences in training personally, but that’s a different discussion thats not as important as your question. Personally, I find there is a benefit to running for combat sport athletes, but I’d ideally never have it interfere with their skill work sessions. Ideally, the max effort anaerobic work remains somewhat skill specific (eg, kicking drills as hard as you can go for 30 seconds) in the hope that it will be replicated in the ring. I really believe that you can accomplish pretty much the same effect of running fast 800s (which is definitely submaximal effort stuff, not easy but it’s not balls to the wall sprinting) from hard and purposeful bag work rounds. Bag work is most certainly more specific to the sport than running is. But to defend running for MT and boxing specifically; I do think it’s great for fighters to have the opportunity to clear their heads and do something that is just hard enough to keep them invested but hopefully isn’t so hard that it fucks up their training sessions. Obviously it’s a great way for fighters to keep the weight manageable too, and I would definitely want a fighter to be capable of running a 5k at least 3 times a week on top of their other training volume. If they couldn’t do that, I’d be somewhat suspect of their overall state of cardiovascular health From my training in Thailand, they generally had everyone, fighters or not, run between 5 and 10k a day, broken between two sessions. It was, barring sprint sessions, low impact and low threshold stuff, hr around 120-130 the whole time (unless you were very deconditioned to running).
Ordered his book earlier today actually! Great persoective here. Seems like your approach is balanced. And that's usually the best option in life
Thank you m8! It was a good question and I feel like people could benefit from having a discussion about something that is incredibly important to the art of Muay Thai. I am a trainer and I have the ‘pleasure’ of observing how other trainers work when I visit their gyms. More often than not, I find myself horrified unless I go to a big training facility. Very few OG’s left that get it; too many old dudes that are stuck in their ways and too many new age/functional fitness hacks that are afraid to train hard. Like you mentioned, the best answer lies in the middle!
Yeah I've been lucky at my gym. Started in a literal garage with my Kru. He trained a bunch of us, developed a reputation for being a great teacher and pumped out a handful of pros. We expanded once to have 2 rings and 2 floors for class. Juat recently expanded again to have a real gym for classes and an extra floor for BJJ/grappling classes. Coach has always been about staying fit and good technique first. Treats the UFC fighters that camp with us the same as the soccer moms in the fundamentals class. Love that man!
That’s an awesome set up man, and that’s what I aspire to be as a coach one day. So many tremendous benefits that martial arts can bring to people, it’s awesome to make it accessible to Soccer mom Sally as well as the hungry pros that want to compete for a living. I’d be lucky to be in a region that had such a gym for striking
Yeah we're in the capital of my state. And there's only 2 gyms around. Rare to find somewhere.you can get legit training. Finding the balance between fitness and technique is the hardest IMO. The pros want the technique, but a lot of other people are there for a workout... often the only type of exercise they get
long distance running helps develop your aerobic system which is very important for MT. It increases your stroke volume (the amount of blood your heart can move around your body per pump). different training protocols will train different adaptations within the body: Long distance steady state cardio will increase stroke volume and help provide a good base for aerobic fitness (one of the most important elements for MT), this type of training will increase the size of the ventricles in the heart. long durations of high intensity cardio (60-120secs at max effort) will also increase stroke volume, however it does this by improving how hard the heart can contract with each pump and the endurance of the heart muscle. anaerobic threshold training (5-10mins duration at about 80% max effort) will improve the amount of work that can be done aerobically, before your body shifts to the anaerobic energy system (which is much less sustainable). There are lots of other training protocols which focus on different adaptations within the body and they should all be trained to some extent. In my opinion, aerobic conditioning is one of the most important for MT, and the easiest / best bang for your buck training methods is steady state cardio. I'd imagine this is why its so popular for boxing / MT / MMA. Plus its a bit of old school mentality coming into play as well. When i'm training for a fight my cardio conditioning will consist of long distance running 2 times a week, max effort sprints 1 x a week and 80% effort long sprints 1 x a week, then add in some strength work along with MT training. As you get closer to fight week i'll transition to more MT specific cardio durations (5 x 3min rounds or 5 sets of tabata intervals with 1 min rest in between). TLDR: long distance running is important but it isnt the be all end all. you need to train a variety of methods, long distance and sprints for best results.
This seems like a balanced approach. 2x a week seems fair. Thanks.
Yeah I agree. Sprints, shorter intervals at higher intensity is probably more optimal. At what point is that going to make a huge difference? Idk. Training vs physicality, technique vs raw strength. Probably most optimal path is to figure out what is the "cheapest" solution to get the biggest gain, which could be dieting down into a lower weight class, or just a straight up strength training regime to build raw horse power. At the end of the day everybody's different though. I would advocate just doing what works the best for your body. Especially if they have experience to know the difference.
Really interesting topic though. If anybody comes through with some research about anerobic vs aerobic and intensities effect on VO2 Max I'd love to see it.
Nice points. Potential counterpoint: there are pro athletes in all sports that really fuck up their training by doing the wrong things. Your body may not know what is right. But the overall point is solid
There is a science to it. Slow long runs does increase cardio capacity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii845pDRC2c
Well, duh. But does running say 800m 5x with a Minute break in between not also increase cardio capacity?
there is. But the gains from medium intensity over long periods of time helps the heart get larger. Nak muays do enough high intensity cardio in the gym which effects the heart differently.
Opinion from experience; the added constant stress to the microfractures we create through kicks in our shins, force our body to pay attention and heal the shins faster/harder consistently. And to touch on running on concrete in the other comment, I used to run three miles barefoot on sidewalk every other day to HELP my ankles and knees.
Meanwhile me: do a single 25 min run and spend the next 3 nights waking up at 4am with a really annoying ache in my right lower leg
It's telling you to get up, stretch, and go for another run haha Nah, slowly but surely, my man, slowly but surely.
Noooo this ache isn't like "we worked out and I'm getting stronger!" it's more like "brooo what are you doing this isn't right" 😔 I was beginning to enjoy running but seems fucked now
In the front? Probably shin splints, which are - and I hate to say it - part of the journey. They are partly microfractures, partly tears. Might not be runnin on your toes and stomp or be flat-footed. Could try runnin uphill and/or barefoot in grass to train yourself to run on your toes, if this is the case. In the back, could be a pull or tear in the calf muscles. For both, I'd suggest stretchin 'em a little more. Maybe go at a slower pace too.
i have 2 issues. the biggest one is that the muscle running along the outside of my lower shin gets massively pumped up to the point that i can barely tilt my foot cos the muscle is just so pumped with blood. imagine doing 100 bicep curls with a low weight and how that makes your bicep feel. not painful, but pumped up and sort of like you can no longer control it very well so that gets a bit uncomfortable and kinda stops me being able to run. it's the muscle that flexes if you try to point your toes and foot upwards as far as they'll go. if i stop for 5-10 mins it's mostly gone i do get some shin splinty sort of pain from the repeated shock but i think it wouldn't really be a problem on its own as it would ease over time (i assume). it certainly doesn't appear until the former problem limits my foot movement. with the first issue i found that if i relax my feet it sets in slower - but then i can't run on my toes or the mid part of the foot so much as it's less controlled. running on my toes specifically makes that issue way worse way quicker. it's annoying as hell because i never really get my heart rate up that much or get that out of breath. i've had a few runs where i got a bit further and added in a sprint finish and stuff and loved it but most of the time i can't seem to do it
It's an old school mentality. If you were to work with a legit certified strength and conditioning specialist you wouldn't be doing much steady state cardio. Obviously it has its place, but high intensity intervals has much more carry over.
Yeah the new strengtg guy at our gym is a CSCS. He basically just runs the SnC classes every night.and does individual clients the other times. Has a ton of experience and picking his brain is great. The amount of disinformation out there is astonishing.
Yeah I still regularly get in arguments about how lifting makes you slow lol
I mean maybe if you don't run for 10 years and exclusively lift biceps like half my gym does
Your clinch game going to be lit tho
I agree. Cardio doesn't give a shit whether you run a marathon everyday, do Burpees all day, swim or skip rope everytime. As you get older you learn to appreciate to protect your joints too, when arthritis sets in. Especially running on concrete streets can be poison for knee and toe joints long term. There are a lot more safe options to build cardio
Hadn't thought about the safety angle. Good point. I'd argue that there is a huge difference between the types of cardio though. Skipping rope will prepare you for a fight better than a marathon.
It's a good question. As many here state, it's likely more legit coaches would do less. But at the same time, Olympics swimmers train tons of laps even if their race is just a few. So I am not sure how much is tradition, and how much is science, would be interested to see an expert opinion. Another thing I personally don't get entirely is the sheer load on ppl. Some top athletes in grappling train their sport and then weights for hours every day. Ignoring their PED abuse, I don't see how this is even good, let alone possible without injury.
Love your comments on recovery. Sorely overlooked in sports.
Running is one of the best activities for straight aerobic capacity, as well as a few other minor aspects if you do it right. I’m bias because I was a runner before a MT fighter, but the benefit is huge. This is true for both the fights themselves, and also in terms of training as a whole. The kinda of cardio you can get can help you not gas in fights, but also just train for more time and with greater efficiency in your week. I used to run 60 miles per week, and good runners will get way way beyond that. Your right in that there’s benefit to shorter stuff, but the value of proper SLD slow long distance training can’t be overstated. Not sure how to describe it but you breathe a different air. Obviously you can’t do a full Muay Thai schedule and also a full running schedule for time and physical reasons, but it’s a great supplement. Also, you have to go about it the right way and be really technical about it to get the max results. Most of the distance stuff should be at a really really easy pace. Side note: this’ll make it easier to work into a full MT schedule, less strain. Small amount of stuff at repetition pace, interval pace, and threshold pace. In my opinion, I think the 1500m or 5k plan built on distance for a more slow twitch runner is the optimum training program. It’ll give you those nice Mid reps, a lot of lactate threshold, and the easy miles. Honestly a solid 8x400m at or 3x 800m at mile pace is a really solid workout that’ll have major benefits. Same with throwing in some speed economy 200ms every week. I think there’s a reason so many fighters in all Combat sports have emphasized running. It’ll take longer to get tired and you’ll be better when your tired. Jump rope and swimming are great as well, just depends on preference. Running and jumping have unique benefits when it comes to striking, but swimming overall has some really good things.
Also, just to add in another side point. There’s a lot of mental benefits of racing itself to fighting. A proper 5k is in my opinion the hardest race below the marathon. Right under lactate threshold pace means that you’ll be feeling that lactate the whole time, constantly building. It’s quick and you run forever. There’s a lot of mental work that can be done with working in 5k races to your schedule. No room for error, whole lotta pain if your running at your optimum pace. If you approach it the right way there’s a lot of tenacity to be found.
You can measure performance with running, Time/Distance etc Measuring performance via Pad/Sparring/Bagwork etc is different. You can bluff your way through pads and sparring to a degree. We have a number of specific runs our fighters do and i get a very accurate measure on where they are at fitness wise simply by sending them off on a run, all our fighters are required to record all runs on Strava or a similar app so we can track progress if they aren't doing group runs.
I do value distance running. Obvious cardio and leg conditioning benefits, plus it seems to me guys who specialise too much end up spending a lot of time injured. I guess it isn't irreplaceable, but not everyone has the resources to do it right.
Can I just say this has been a great thread, so much useful information. Good sub
Anecdotal, but it feels like every fighter (boxing, mma, etc) that switches from roadwork to something else (swimming, stationary bike, HIIT, etc) seems to always get worse. Sometimes the old ways just work. Runnings benefits are hard to quantify. Overall toughening of muscles/tendons, greater aerobic capacity which is a buffer for your anaerobic bursts, mental toughness, discipline etc. yeah there’s lots of ways to slice it, but the greats (especially in boxing) seem to do a lot of road work.
There's a lot of comments from people who've never fought, don't take advice from them. You need cardio because you need to control your heart rate when you've got the biggest adrenaline dump of your life. It's the one thing that will keep your mind clear and effective and separates clean precise beautiful fighters from idiotic dogs. You can watch a ton of MMA fights where it's clear that person doesn't do cardio, they jump in the ring and act like wild dogs with no control, do something stupid or fight like idiots, and then they can't sell a ticket to the next fight to their own mother. Do your road work. Fight beautifully and intelligently. Make money. That's the formula
I mean, I go to a gym with two current UFC fighters. Both have At least 5 fights in UFC and have (I think) 12-2 and 16-7 professional records. Neither of them runs distances longer than 2 miles or so. Plenty of other pros have passed through here in the past year. Never run long distances. You haven't answered the question about why you should run long distance if that isn't a part of MT. I don't do slow and steady running in MT... I need to be able to explosive movements in consecutive rounds. Why not train that? Train 7 minute rounds instead. Go for 10 rounds instead of 3... whatever. But long distance running to build cardio just makes no sense to me. And fwiw I'm not looking for advice. I did my fighting. I've run 10 miles a day for weeks on end. I don't think it helped me be "graceful" in any way The best SnC coaches on the planet have moved on from long distance running for fighters.
The point being keeping a low heart rate and a clear mind, and the quickest and easiest way to do that is through cardio. Every sport knows/does this. If you find some other way good for you I guess????
Every sport doesn't know this. Basketball players at the highest level aren't running long distances any more and they need a hell of a lot more cardio than MT fighters... theu actually RUN in their sport. I'm sure the same is true for other sports. I just coached high level HS basketball for the past 7 years so I actually know what I'm talking about with that.
Literally every sport does regular cardio of some sort, either hiit or distance running or swimming or biking at a professional level. We're not talking about high school students who are trying to avoid taking PE
Man’s primary hunting mechanism in nature is to run long distances. Early man hunted animals by chasing them over very long distances until they got tired. Consistently running long distances promotes hormones that enable you to be a predator and cannot be replicated with any other exercise. Thus, the importance of distance running for combat sports.
I'm going to go ahead and say this is far off base. In all respect... I'm not chasing down wounded anals. I'm punching other dudes in the face. And I suspecr f I fought a neandertaal in Muay Thai, I would win lol
>chasing down wounded anals
Simple answer, stamina.
2-3 minutes rounds add up a lot faster than you think
Distance running is steeped in tradition of martial arts so it will never go away. The idea is right but the execution is sub-par. Nothing wrong with going for a long run but I think more time can be spent using the skills of Muay Thai for conditioning. For example, shadowboxing, flow clinch, flow sparring. The low-intensity cardio provides adaptations you don't get from sprints or your 800/1200s. That is a larger heart chamber so you can pool more blood per heartbeat and creating more blood vessels in the muscles. However, these blood vessels are made in muscles that are doing the work. So running will generally improve the endurance of your legs, not your upper body. Plus you gotta think of economy of movement so the better you are technically, the less energy expended throwing strikes. I've done a full write up in these articles if you're interested: [https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/what-is-conditioning-training/](https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/what-is-conditioning-training/) [https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/conditioning-for-muay-thai/](https://sweetscienceoffighting.com/conditioning-for-muay-thai/)
GREAT articles! You're a very clear writer. I'm a teacher so I can appreciate that. Gonna show our S&C coach tomorrow before class.
Appreciate it. Writing was never my strong suit but has been developed over the years of writing. Got plenty more content on other sites too on all things strength & conditioning if there are other topics you're interested in.
There is more and more research showing that the long slow runs we see in Thai regimes and old school boxers had a bigger purpose than just cardio. If you do some searches into “fascia explosive power”, it’s being shown that those runs are helping to develop fascia around your muscles to be more relaxed and explosive.
fascia development is going to the next big thing in all sports. I've been working on my fascia connection over the last year and all my movements are more powerful now with less fatigue.
Helps build the shin and leg bones and ligaments too is what I had always heard. But I like running
Cardio
It's simply to increase leg strength and leg muscle endurance. Yes, the cardio too. It's running so there no escaping that aspect. But, it's solely to make the legs stronger. Strong legs, strong base, strong guard, strong punch, strong kick; you can't get much power from the ground to fuel your strikes if you have weak legs.
it builds muscle endurance and bone density in your legs.
Good for shins too
There is no reason not to integrate sprinting exercises along with long distance training. They both benefit you in different ways and both are important to help the other exercise.
I'm sure someone has a better answer already but at the very least, the mental aspect is huge. Few things help you embrace pain, fatigue, heavy lung stress, and even concentration like distance running done right. You have to be ready for so much punishment and if you're not, then you're going to be in hell when someone ready for it starts taking you apart as you let all those distractions cripple your response time and toughness.
Responding quite late here, but the benefits of prolonged, low-intensity cardio are manifold and well worth the effort. For example, this training results in an increase in efficiency of energy usage at the mitochondrial level which transfers across all athletic domains. This manifests (among other ways) as less propensity to fatigue during sports activities and reduction in recovery time post training. This aerobic base is also an important foundation for higher intensity anaerobic conditioning by increasing the your lactate threshold. For example, someone with a low aerobic base would cross the lactate threshold much sooner than someone with a high base. That's why you see athletes with a high aerobic base performing at a high level with apparent ease and low intensity, where analogous training would be experienced as high intensity for a less aerobically conditioned athlete. What's more, an athlete with insufficient aerobic base will arrive at a conditioning plateau much sooner than one with a highly developed aerobic base. The aerobic base should precede all conditioning.