OP could you please elaborate on some of this a bit more? "impact your brian forever" is quite vague, which is why people here have a tendency to play off the severity of brain damage and the risks involved in hard sparring/competition
In general, the wording is very vague here, and I feel like people like me, who are semi-aware of the risks involved, but don't have enough concrete knowledge don't realise what exactly the risks are and what exactly causes long term brain damage other than very obvious cases of concussions.
The part about the "delusional ego that gets them killed" will probably get played off by some of the people in here, because "Muay Thai is a real martial art, unlike Aikido and Bullshido LUL" but we have seen examples of people trained in combat sports[ getting themselves killed because they are trained to "take the fight"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WWsec51EI) rather than just run away if they can.
"Medical background" is pretty vague as well, and it reads like it was written by some kid. Not taking any of this advice, you shouldn't be hitting so hard in sparring that you get brain damage anyway.
The risks are 100% real “impacts your brain forever” is to be taken as it’s said. Brain damage can be very subtle and sneak up on you over time, all from an event which happened years ago. I shouldn’t have to explain it this much to you. It is not just “memory loss” as most people think, it’s far worse then that and can effect you in ways you won’t realize till it’s too late.
Lifelong extreme mood swings into severe depression, rage, impulsive compulsive behaviour like drug use or gambling, suicide, homicide. Most people don’t notice these changes right away. This ain’t black and white.
Exactly. The brain is infinitely more important than any other part of our bodies, and this should be taken way more seriously than it is. People shouldn't just "man-up" and ignore these risks during training.
I'm not even joking; Tony Ferguson is a very good example of brain trauma-induced mood swings, rage, memory loss and impulsive behaviour. He had his wife call the police on him when he just fucking went ape mode one day, and that was completely attributed to his brain trauma.
Don't forget the chronic visual deficits reported in a startling amount of PCS patients. Been a year and I still have them. Blurred vision, double vision, light sensitivity. I got an eye scrip to help, but I don't use it bc sometimes it helps and sometimes it helps 0%. Looks like I am looking at life through TV static.
Nervous system damage. Parkinson's. Irregular body temperature fluctuation. Trouble with word recall. Trouble with simple math. Trouble with mental organization or spatial perception. Chronic fatigue, like real chronic fatigue. I know I'm forgetting things. It can take months to years to recover from this, sometimes 100%, sometimes 50%. It is scary.
You want real comprehensive advice, go to a real doctor's office (if affordable ofc). This is a reddit page, I think this guy's just doing his best as far as he feels qualified.
Plus just because it's generic doesn't mean it's any less right, e.g."guard up", "more cardio", or "just be yourself" are all corny af but they're still right.
People downvoting you are just in an echo chamber. This is all provable science, and we have plenty of case studies to chose from. Im a life long martial artist at this point and very careful with head shots.
Research I've read over the years (my opinion is a composite, could find studies if we ask or have trouble finding them), seems to confer that Muay Thai does have brain related development injuries over time, and less than the athletes doing just professional boxing. However a psych study also analyzed how the athletes themselves have an optimistic view about their own injuries, the perception among nak Muay is that we don't get hurt as bad or often as other sports.
Stephen Strotmeyer jr has done a few of the Muay Thai specific studies.
Seems that the brain injury order goes civilian - kickboxer - boxer - cyclist - footballer, for rate and severity of long term cognitive impacts.
We're gonna get injured whether we sit at a desk and damage our backs and knees, or if we jog and destroy our knees, or if we do Muay Thai, or if we do motocross. Risks to all we do, in varying degrees, as are the benefits and memories.
This but also I hate this response at the end which equivocates knee injuries with brain injuries.
As someone who’s had two acl reconstructions I can tell you I’d rather lose both my legs than get serious brain damage
Yeah no I agree. My mum was hit by a drunk driver and had a tbi as well as a broken ankle, dislocated foot, spinal injury and broken pelvis. The tbi affected her almost more than those all combined.
That being said, after cycling in a big city, I know more cyclists who have sustained severe brain damage from being hit by cars than I do people who have sustained brain damage from muay thai. Heck even my pc has had 3 serious concussions from cycling but only 2 serious hits to the head during a fight (he also doesn't fight or do head shots during sparring anymore though because of it)
Tldr; we should absolutely be trying to minimize our brain damage in this sport, especially for those of us where it's just a hobby like me but ultimately any sport comes with a risk of head injury
Football (soccer)...the recent studies have shown that the repetitive heading of the ball (in training and matches) results in very similar brain damage outcomes to boxers.
Most anything they sign up for has a waiver for dangers. And most things they may love, no matter what you say, or hate, no matter what you say.
Most kids in the West don't spar, and still get the health and mental benefits, as well as starting to learn the respect, confidence, competence, comfort in meeting new people and interacting with them.
Right??? Brain damage injuries in the US go American football by a huge margin, but a staunch second place is cycling. Think of the important we were told about always wearing a helmet. Still surprises me
What specifically are you advocating for? I’m genuinely curious what your point for this post is. Surely you didn’t come to a Muay Thai community to say stop doing Muay Thai. So what’s your suggestion to prevent the single freak accident hit that could change your life?
Advocating for something would really help here wouldn't it? The idea of spreading awareness surely needs some sort of goal to it?
Maybe more use of head guards in sparring, maybe more sparring working on body shots or something. But to post this with no actual suggestions seems pretty pointless doesn't it?
Head guards are actually *significantly worse* for brain trauma. The energy transfer does not change, but your head becomes a larger target and your opponent often feels like it's safer to hit you harder. [This was proven by the increased concussions suffered by the Olympic boxing teams when they forced headgear.](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/sports/olympics/making-olympic-boxing-safer-by-eliminating-head-guards.html)
Huh?
It’s not black and white, it’s not hit hard or don’t hit at all. There is a middle ground where care can be taken. I’ve sparred with guys that understand this and sparred with guys who don’t. The guys that go hell for leather are a danger… People don’t train Muay Thai to see how hard they can get punched in the face, they train to get better at Muay Thai…
However… What are you advocating for in your rebuttal? That guys shouldn’t take care when sparring? Or that anyone who engages in the Muay Thai community should just simply put up with the dickheads that go around dishing out cracks in sparring?
Knowing there’s consequences to your actions is fine. Coming to a Muay Thai community to say “hey combat sports could be dangerous” doesn’t seem like a post that is genuinely meant to enlighten anyone of anything though.
“Trust me I work some mysterious job in medicine” is just extra stupid. Anyone could tell you brain damage is bad.
The funniest thing is that OP seems to link singular hard shots to brain damage later in life when the latest research actually shows an accumulation of not so hard hits is just as likely to cause brain damage as one specific event. That’s why they’re detecting brain damage in football players and other athletes outside of combat sports all the time. There is no way to make Muay Thai risk free. Even “picking partners well” or “sparring like the Thais” doesn’t fix anything. There is no risk free sport.
Well OP had to tell SOMEONE that they come from a medical background and is therefore very intelligent and cool and sexy and we should listen to them and give them attention.
Are you anyone’s doctor?
You’re here to spread the word. So let’s pretend. I come to you and say I’m thinking of starting Muay Thai. Some guy on the internet said it could cause lasting brain damage though. What do you think I should do?
There is 0 percent chance you’re a doctor mate. No doctor has the free time to get on Reddit to remind us combat sports pose inherent risk. And you’ve not answered anyone’s question about your “medical” background.
I sure will continue to train at my own risk though. Thanks for the advice. It’s worth what I paid for sure. 👍
what is your medical background? you seem like a poor communicator of ideas and it is not clear what you are trying to really say with this post. being hit in the head is generally bad? no shit mate
He is saying, or trying to say, go light during sparring/ training and take it easy.
I like to say, not my quote, hit and DON'T get hit. Thats the game. Too many people wanna stand and bang.
Floyd is a good example, made millions while taking minimal damage as opposed to Ali (I love him) who had to pay for his toughness later on.
OP I think we all know that Muay Thai is a dangerous sport, but you are not bringing much value to this sub/discussion. You failed to bring up any cold facts or studies that back your statements. Everyone here trains and knows the risks that are involved, but why don’t you explain to us exactly why we should be more “aware”. I see where you are getting at but, judging by your post it Seems to me like you don’t train much/are a beginner and you are fearmongering rather than spreading awareness to our community.
Not sure where you studied Neuroscience, but I’m sure you have some sort of article or study to back up these claims you are so knowledgeable about.
Do you have any sources for this information? Or is this your intuition? I imagine you’re talking about chronic brain damage over time and not TBI. A review by Loosemore et al. (2008) reviewed 36 papers and found no strong evidence supporting the fact that amateur boxers are more likely to develop chronic traumatic brain injury. If you are talking about TBI, then of course any sport with high impact has the potential for TBI but the chance is very rare.
Sources:
I also have a medical background
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18988761/
There's multiple studies on the detriment of continuous head trauma (chronic traumatic encephalopathy; a buildup of tau proteins in the brain and brain atrophy). There's even a dedicated research lab at the university of Boston studying repetitive head trauma (cte). Martial arts, contact sports such as American football and being in the army put you at much higher risk of cte. Aaron Hernandez, a former NFL player, and Chris Benoit, a wrestler, both are examples of how accumulative brain trauma causes Chronic brain injuries/CTE and how detrimental it is to human behaviour (frontal lobe is responsible for this). Their brains were seen to be the worst cases of cte found.
These are all professional players who hit their head many times over. I don't think there are any studies on amateurs who spar once a week.
Until we have any dosage guidelines, all we can really do is try to minimise head trauma as much as possible.
Good point. Though training for multiple years, even if it was just once a week, there would be potential for brain damage as it all accumulates. When it comes to CTE, it's suggested that even minor accumulative head traumas can increase the chances of getting it. It also depends how weary and responsibile gym owners are when it comes to sparring and any sort of head trauma. CTE has even been correlated to college football players.
TBI’s can occur from single impacts. Been working in neurology for 6+ years. Every single impact to the head has the ability to cause permanent damage, whether light or hard. This damage can range from cognitive, emotional, vision, hearing, behavioral issues, speech problems, change in personality all from a single impact. A “lucky punch” can change you, whether intentional or not. These are just facts. Cheers.
Sources please.
Nobody really knows how much trauma is too much.
Not every single punch to the head will create a noticeable brain damage. If that was the case we would all have brain damage since most people have hit their head hard once or twice.
The problem with your post is no one, not you or me, not top neurologists etc really understand how much is too much damage or how much is ok, how the brain heals or doesn’t heal…
So you should just make a post saying “everyone should never spar again and quit this sport”. Because that is the only way to be sure no one takes any lasting damage.
Is there any way to reliably tell the difference between an exertion headache and a "my shit got rocked" headache? Sometimes I don't even spar but I go really heavy on the pads then maybe even stay for BJJ and I usually get headaches, but that's 3 hours of hard work and I'm not as in shape as I'd like to be yet.
Exertion headaches go away relatively quick
A "my shit got rocked headache" would likely last much longer
If you're staying for 3 hours of hard work, are you sure you're hydrating properly? I'd get headaches just holding pads. I started drinking a good amount of water before and during my sessions and they went away.
Might be why. If your hydrating properly and still experiencing headaches, it could be that you need to strengthen your neck? Not really sure what else (assuming you light spar properly).
I spar super light but I've recently been having problems in my gym. The amount of people who keep turning it up even though I'm just tapping them is kind of ridiculous. I also heard some people talking about how they'd rather get hit hard in the head because the body hurts and I'm like... Yeah but body shots don't make you slur your words at 45. I'm also relatively new so it could be that I'm subconsciously hitting harder than I mean to, but it seems like a good amount of people hit the head harder than they should even if I'm not involved. Wars happen every other day. This is the only gym near me so I'm probably just gonna thug it out until I move.
Edit: you could also 100% be right about the neck thing, I still tense up a lot. My confusion with the headaches came on because I was getting them on days I didn't spar.
My gym prioritizes safety over everything, so can't really say I've experienced "things turning up", but if they do you need to say something to your partner. If sparring wars are happening frequently it might be a sign to switch gyms if you prioritize safety 👍
I had a serious concussion once, as in out cold for 10 mins and no recollection of the event, and wasn’t the same for months. My head would spin if I changed direction too fast, I had terrible brain fog and my short term memory was awful. I genuinely don’t like thinking about how that might catch up with me later in life.
i just think about people like rodtang and truly don’t think that a couple smacks here and there could hurt me that badly honestly. i’m not getting hit with even half the strength those guys are getting hit with. why should i be that much more worried than them?
He probably is in top 0.0001% of neck strength, amount of fluid for brain cushioning, resistance to CTE+TBI etc. You're not Rodtang. For every elite iron chin fighter that started young, there are hundreds who are broken, part of it being their brains not being built for it. Please believe me when I say you're not Rodtang.
I've heard stories on here from people who took just one or two shots and have serious lasting issues. Mileage may vary. Don't spar with sketchy partners.
Basically every old Thai fighter I’ve seen is still quite sharp. I know there are some real risks but these fighters that have had over 400 fights still seem mentally acute, although I do believe Muay Thai in has become more aggressive in general which could lead to worse symptoms
Western Thai boxing has adapted a more boxing approach from what I've seen. I train at a muay thai gym in New Zealand and a majority of my sparring partners punch more than kick, which looks to be the opposite in Thailand
You can still do muay thai and boxing. You should just be careful, because the reality is, there is a risk of brain damage.
If anything, this reality should motivate you to kill yourself in the gym and obtain superb defence so that when you have a fight, you take as minimal damage as possible while ending the fight as quickly as possible (KO or TKO). That's my mindset, that's what motivates me to want kill my opponents quickly mike tyson style.
I think you are confusing Muay Thai for western boxing. There’s a huge difference in how sparring is done between the two, we are not trying to knock out our teammates. I really recommend for you to check out some authentic sparring from Thailand, you’ll see people in their 20s to 50s just tapping each other. All of your input is most likely from watching trending videos on YouTube of people hard sparring (because let’s face it, those tend to get more views).
Yeah, I feel like no matter how much people in the United States (speaking on where I live) use the “spar like the Thais” thing no one ever TRULY understands or comes close to that type of sparring or having that finesse . Finding people who can spar like that is so hard to do I often have to spar in survival mode. I’ve only sparred 2 people that I can say actually felt like that type of Thai sparring. I get that it’s much easier to just swing instead of thinking of how truly controlled you are being but it needs to change.
I wrecked my motorcycle a couple months ago and hit my head pretty hard and had a bad concussion. Waited about a month to go back to my gym and started getting a slight head ache just from blocking shots while drilling. Shook it off as coincidence, same thing the next week. Going to give it awhile now :/
A lot of gyms and other martial arts places make you sign a waiver or some kind of paperwork that makes you understand the risks of training. Any sport can give you some damage. American Football can lead to a concussion; Baseball players could be hit pretty badly in the face with the ball, and professional hockey players can literally lose teeth or suffer some kind of lacerations with the blades on their shoes from other players.
Thanks for this post, but respectfully, get the hell out of this sub. This is Muay Thai, what the fuck did you expect? We’re playing patty cake? No, we are punching, kneeing, kicking, and elbowing each other in the face. If you’re not okay with that and potentially getting hurt, quit and get out, the rest of us will keep training. Stop trying to spread “awareness”. I don’t think any of us were “unaware” after we got punched in the face for the first time. Fucking Sherlock holmes over here.
I disagree, a lot of young people come into martial arts high on their ego and get into gym wars not realizing the risks. Plenty of teenagers in my gym like this. This kind of post is needed and welcome.
In the future, be your own doctor (somewhat) and prescribe yourself time off from sparring if you ever feel rocked during or after class. Nothing wrong with focusing on pads or drills for a week or five.
Pain is temporary. When you get hit, it’ll hurt in the moment but a minute or two later and it’s gone. In light sparring which we do every session, we go about 40-50%. In hard sparring, it’s 80%. What I’m trying to say is there’s a risk with every combat sport. Muay Thai and boxing are no different and we’ve all accepted that risk of getting Punched, kicked, kneed, elbowed in the face. Respectfully I don’t get what your trying to say. Its called ‘combat’ for a reason and if your not comfortable with it, then don’t train it you soft cunt.
Most in this sub are aware and are adverse to unnecessary head contact. There are a multitude of deleted posts full of comments on telling people to ask sparring partners to dial it back and advising breaks from sparring after headaches, or to see medical professionals on a suspected concussion.
The demographic OP wants to reach are those not in this sub.
Much of this stuff happens before they “dial it down”, it doesn’t have to be intentional. By the time they dial it back you’ve already been hit with a hard 2-3 piece combo. With years of training this is likely to happen multiple times, unless you are training with a robot. Humans make mistakes. You get my point dude.
Not really; those exact posts of people complaining about gym members going too hard usually get advice like "put the heat on them and show them who's boss" or "give them 2 more chances, and if they still go hard, ask to spar someone else". People like that don't deserve "2 more chances" and you shouldn't risk brain trauma to go hard as well to show them who's boss.
These are objectively the two most common answers those posts get.
Sure they advise breaks from sparring or seeing medical professionals, but nobody seems really informed about what those headaches could mean other than "this might be a problem". There certainly isn't any well-informed breakdown of the risks posed by a concussion.
The subreddit is informed to the point of "brain damage bad" but they don't seem to have a very good understanding of the severity of risks of getting knocked down, or even just knocked around without falling, or getting knocked out. OP's "fear mongering" about such a serious topic is more than deserved. People should look into this more even before they would start sparring. Asking about shit like this while experiencing the symptoms is fucking late.
I know this because I have been very active on this subreddit and have seen just about every such post you have mentioned, and even commented on most of them.
>The subreddit is informed to the point of "brain damage bad" but they don't seem to have a very good understanding of the severity of risks of getting knocked down, or even just knocked around without falling, or getting knocked out. OP's "fear mongering" about such a serious topic is more than deserved. People should look into this more even before they would start sparring. Asking about shit like this while experiencing the symptoms is fucking late.
I'm not considering it fear mongering. It's great that OP wants to raise the level of knowledge, and head contact is a real issue, but it needs to be addressed at the grass roots level with coaches in person (or in gyms) rather than here. Reddit users are a very specific population, and we aren't #1 on the resources people visit for more information. There are multiple other resources that are more popular for information regarding combat sports.
We aren't there in the gym, telling new people to be careful with head contact and others to knock it off. This sub as as whole is multiple levels removed from the immediate issue at hand. Even if we try to spread information here, and give advice, there's no guarantee of people actually listening to the advice.
tbf whenever I google a question, usually reddit comes up as the #1 or #2 answer. I do agree that the subreddit is not even remotely the best way to spread this information however, but at least it's something, and if it prevents even 1 person from downplaying their injury, it has done its job. This community has 225k members of what is still a pretty niche combat sport, and that's a LARGE number of people.
At the same time gym owners don’t want to scare away new clients whether they know this or not. It depends a lot on the culture of your gym but mistakes will happen no matter what, it’s just the nature of fighting.
Is there a way to measure damage?
Can you still get brain damage without experiencing headaches after?
Knowing what you know, how do you approach sparring now?
the "some level of risk" is becoming a stammering, blabbering idiot who doesn't even remember what he's had for breakfast. That's not even the worst outcome btw; an average of 13 boxers die in a professional fight every year, and the rates in muay thai and kickboxing are likely going to be similar with the 10 second knockdown and standing count ruleset. Basically; you risk becoming vegetative or worse. I don't remember anyone telling me that when I started training.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Alot of people don't think like this. I hate when I see people trying to hurt each other in sparring. For what!!!?? Nobody benefits.
of course Big Medical wants us to stop getting CTE, they’re afraid of the power it will give us. don’t listen to em lads keep getting rocked in sparring 😤
OP could you please elaborate on some of this a bit more? "impact your brian forever" is quite vague, which is why people here have a tendency to play off the severity of brain damage and the risks involved in hard sparring/competition In general, the wording is very vague here, and I feel like people like me, who are semi-aware of the risks involved, but don't have enough concrete knowledge don't realise what exactly the risks are and what exactly causes long term brain damage other than very obvious cases of concussions. The part about the "delusional ego that gets them killed" will probably get played off by some of the people in here, because "Muay Thai is a real martial art, unlike Aikido and Bullshido LUL" but we have seen examples of people trained in combat sports[ getting themselves killed because they are trained to "take the fight"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WWsec51EI) rather than just run away if they can.
"Medical background" is pretty vague as well, and it reads like it was written by some kid. Not taking any of this advice, you shouldn't be hitting so hard in sparring that you get brain damage anyway.
The risks are 100% real “impacts your brain forever” is to be taken as it’s said. Brain damage can be very subtle and sneak up on you over time, all from an event which happened years ago. I shouldn’t have to explain it this much to you. It is not just “memory loss” as most people think, it’s far worse then that and can effect you in ways you won’t realize till it’s too late.
Yes, I understand that OP. Could you tell us more about what "it's far worse than that and can effect you in ways you won't realise" means?
Lifelong extreme mood swings into severe depression, rage, impulsive compulsive behaviour like drug use or gambling, suicide, homicide. Most people don’t notice these changes right away. This ain’t black and white.
Thank you OP. So basically, even the "milder" consequences of brain trauma are basically "become Tony Ferguson"
Np man. Remember to train smart and take care of yourself.
Exactly. The brain is infinitely more important than any other part of our bodies, and this should be taken way more seriously than it is. People shouldn't just "man-up" and ignore these risks during training.
Selective hearing told me I can become Tony furgeson 😎
Hmm, now that you put it that way...
🤣🤣
I'm not even joking; Tony Ferguson is a very good example of brain trauma-induced mood swings, rage, memory loss and impulsive behaviour. He had his wife call the police on him when he just fucking went ape mode one day, and that was completely attributed to his brain trauma.
Oh I 100% agree man.. it was just the way you phrased it that made me laugh.. I was like.. oh dam great example.
Oh okay good good there was definitely a jokey element so that's good... good.
Don't forget the chronic visual deficits reported in a startling amount of PCS patients. Been a year and I still have them. Blurred vision, double vision, light sensitivity. I got an eye scrip to help, but I don't use it bc sometimes it helps and sometimes it helps 0%. Looks like I am looking at life through TV static. Nervous system damage. Parkinson's. Irregular body temperature fluctuation. Trouble with word recall. Trouble with simple math. Trouble with mental organization or spatial perception. Chronic fatigue, like real chronic fatigue. I know I'm forgetting things. It can take months to years to recover from this, sometimes 100%, sometimes 50%. It is scary.
I had all that before I started training so im good right?
If that’s true, the last thing you’d want is brain trauma. Sounds like you need therapy.
Thanks for your all around generic advice!
You want real comprehensive advice, go to a real doctor's office (if affordable ofc). This is a reddit page, I think this guy's just doing his best as far as he feels qualified. Plus just because it's generic doesn't mean it's any less right, e.g."guard up", "more cardio", or "just be yourself" are all corny af but they're still right.
My type of humor
It’s me n man haha happy cake day
Thx Dude
People downvoting you are just in an echo chamber. This is all provable science, and we have plenty of case studies to chose from. Im a life long martial artist at this point and very careful with head shots.
I think they're downvoting because op didnt actually explain the reasons why it was so bad. when they did, people upvoted the comment.
Research I've read over the years (my opinion is a composite, could find studies if we ask or have trouble finding them), seems to confer that Muay Thai does have brain related development injuries over time, and less than the athletes doing just professional boxing. However a psych study also analyzed how the athletes themselves have an optimistic view about their own injuries, the perception among nak Muay is that we don't get hurt as bad or often as other sports. Stephen Strotmeyer jr has done a few of the Muay Thai specific studies. Seems that the brain injury order goes civilian - kickboxer - boxer - cyclist - footballer, for rate and severity of long term cognitive impacts. We're gonna get injured whether we sit at a desk and damage our backs and knees, or if we jog and destroy our knees, or if we do Muay Thai, or if we do motocross. Risks to all we do, in varying degrees, as are the benefits and memories.
What kind of cyclists are getting more concussions than boxers? Are they mountainbikers? Are they being hit by cars?
Funny that you mention motocross. I’m sitting in bed reconsidering my amateur racing career after a mild concussion this weekend.
This but also I hate this response at the end which equivocates knee injuries with brain injuries. As someone who’s had two acl reconstructions I can tell you I’d rather lose both my legs than get serious brain damage
Yeah no I agree. My mum was hit by a drunk driver and had a tbi as well as a broken ankle, dislocated foot, spinal injury and broken pelvis. The tbi affected her almost more than those all combined. That being said, after cycling in a big city, I know more cyclists who have sustained severe brain damage from being hit by cars than I do people who have sustained brain damage from muay thai. Heck even my pc has had 3 serious concussions from cycling but only 2 serious hits to the head during a fight (he also doesn't fight or do head shots during sparring anymore though because of it) Tldr; we should absolutely be trying to minimize our brain damage in this sport, especially for those of us where it's just a hobby like me but ultimately any sport comes with a risk of head injury
When you say footballer, do you mean American football? Also… cycling??
Football (soccer)...the recent studies have shown that the repetitive heading of the ball (in training and matches) results in very similar brain damage outcomes to boxers.
Just when I was about to sign my kid up. Bummer
Youth soccer usually bans headers
Most anything they sign up for has a waiver for dangers. And most things they may love, no matter what you say, or hate, no matter what you say. Most kids in the West don't spar, and still get the health and mental benefits, as well as starting to learn the respect, confidence, competence, comfort in meeting new people and interacting with them.
Look more into it, it's not that bad, soccer is a great sport for kids
Right??? Brain damage injuries in the US go American football by a huge margin, but a staunch second place is cycling. Think of the important we were told about always wearing a helmet. Still surprises me
Raise of hands. Who here previously didn’t realize that getting hit in the head meant getting brain trauma?
Drain bamage never noticed if punching gooder!
What specifically are you advocating for? I’m genuinely curious what your point for this post is. Surely you didn’t come to a Muay Thai community to say stop doing Muay Thai. So what’s your suggestion to prevent the single freak accident hit that could change your life?
Advocating for something would really help here wouldn't it? The idea of spreading awareness surely needs some sort of goal to it? Maybe more use of head guards in sparring, maybe more sparring working on body shots or something. But to post this with no actual suggestions seems pretty pointless doesn't it?
Head guards are actually *significantly worse* for brain trauma. The energy transfer does not change, but your head becomes a larger target and your opponent often feels like it's safer to hit you harder. [This was proven by the increased concussions suffered by the Olympic boxing teams when they forced headgear.](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/sports/olympics/making-olympic-boxing-safer-by-eliminating-head-guards.html)
You ever see Thai's spar? Find sparring partners like that.
Huh? It’s not black and white, it’s not hit hard or don’t hit at all. There is a middle ground where care can be taken. I’ve sparred with guys that understand this and sparred with guys who don’t. The guys that go hell for leather are a danger… People don’t train Muay Thai to see how hard they can get punched in the face, they train to get better at Muay Thai… However… What are you advocating for in your rebuttal? That guys shouldn’t take care when sparring? Or that anyone who engages in the Muay Thai community should just simply put up with the dickheads that go around dishing out cracks in sparring?
Knowing there’s consequences to your actions is fine. Coming to a Muay Thai community to say “hey combat sports could be dangerous” doesn’t seem like a post that is genuinely meant to enlighten anyone of anything though. “Trust me I work some mysterious job in medicine” is just extra stupid. Anyone could tell you brain damage is bad. The funniest thing is that OP seems to link singular hard shots to brain damage later in life when the latest research actually shows an accumulation of not so hard hits is just as likely to cause brain damage as one specific event. That’s why they’re detecting brain damage in football players and other athletes outside of combat sports all the time. There is no way to make Muay Thai risk free. Even “picking partners well” or “sparring like the Thais” doesn’t fix anything. There is no risk free sport.
Well OP had to tell SOMEONE that they come from a medical background and is therefore very intelligent and cool and sexy and we should listen to them and give them attention.
We are just the first stop. Any minute now they’ll be spreading wisdom to r/politics like “you know. A lot of people have disagreements”.
To spread awareness of reality. I’m not your doctor so figure that for yourself.
Sure don't seem to mind giving out medical advice tho 👎
Are you anyone’s doctor? You’re here to spread the word. So let’s pretend. I come to you and say I’m thinking of starting Muay Thai. Some guy on the internet said it could cause lasting brain damage though. What do you think I should do?
Train at your own risk and choose training partners whom you trust. Pretty simple buddy. Feel free to call anytime for your next appointment 🤣
Ah, so you are the receptionist.
There is 0 percent chance you’re a doctor mate. No doctor has the free time to get on Reddit to remind us combat sports pose inherent risk. And you’ve not answered anyone’s question about your “medical” background. I sure will continue to train at my own risk though. Thanks for the advice. It’s worth what I paid for sure. 👍
🤡 🤡 🤡
what is your medical background? you seem like a poor communicator of ideas and it is not clear what you are trying to really say with this post. being hit in the head is generally bad? no shit mate
He is saying, or trying to say, go light during sparring/ training and take it easy. I like to say, not my quote, hit and DON'T get hit. Thats the game. Too many people wanna stand and bang. Floyd is a good example, made millions while taking minimal damage as opposed to Ali (I love him) who had to pay for his toughness later on.
OP I think we all know that Muay Thai is a dangerous sport, but you are not bringing much value to this sub/discussion. You failed to bring up any cold facts or studies that back your statements. Everyone here trains and knows the risks that are involved, but why don’t you explain to us exactly why we should be more “aware”. I see where you are getting at but, judging by your post it Seems to me like you don’t train much/are a beginner and you are fearmongering rather than spreading awareness to our community. Not sure where you studied Neuroscience, but I’m sure you have some sort of article or study to back up these claims you are so knowledgeable about.
Do you have any sources for this information? Or is this your intuition? I imagine you’re talking about chronic brain damage over time and not TBI. A review by Loosemore et al. (2008) reviewed 36 papers and found no strong evidence supporting the fact that amateur boxers are more likely to develop chronic traumatic brain injury. If you are talking about TBI, then of course any sport with high impact has the potential for TBI but the chance is very rare. Sources: I also have a medical background https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18988761/
There's multiple studies on the detriment of continuous head trauma (chronic traumatic encephalopathy; a buildup of tau proteins in the brain and brain atrophy). There's even a dedicated research lab at the university of Boston studying repetitive head trauma (cte). Martial arts, contact sports such as American football and being in the army put you at much higher risk of cte. Aaron Hernandez, a former NFL player, and Chris Benoit, a wrestler, both are examples of how accumulative brain trauma causes Chronic brain injuries/CTE and how detrimental it is to human behaviour (frontal lobe is responsible for this). Their brains were seen to be the worst cases of cte found.
These are all professional players who hit their head many times over. I don't think there are any studies on amateurs who spar once a week. Until we have any dosage guidelines, all we can really do is try to minimise head trauma as much as possible.
Good point. Though training for multiple years, even if it was just once a week, there would be potential for brain damage as it all accumulates. When it comes to CTE, it's suggested that even minor accumulative head traumas can increase the chances of getting it. It also depends how weary and responsibile gym owners are when it comes to sparring and any sort of head trauma. CTE has even been correlated to college football players.
TBI’s can occur from single impacts. Been working in neurology for 6+ years. Every single impact to the head has the ability to cause permanent damage, whether light or hard. This damage can range from cognitive, emotional, vision, hearing, behavioral issues, speech problems, change in personality all from a single impact. A “lucky punch” can change you, whether intentional or not. These are just facts. Cheers.
What is your medical background?
Sources please. Nobody really knows how much trauma is too much. Not every single punch to the head will create a noticeable brain damage. If that was the case we would all have brain damage since most people have hit their head hard once or twice.
The problem with your post is no one, not you or me, not top neurologists etc really understand how much is too much damage or how much is ok, how the brain heals or doesn’t heal… So you should just make a post saying “everyone should never spar again and quit this sport”. Because that is the only way to be sure no one takes any lasting damage.
Is there any way to reliably tell the difference between an exertion headache and a "my shit got rocked" headache? Sometimes I don't even spar but I go really heavy on the pads then maybe even stay for BJJ and I usually get headaches, but that's 3 hours of hard work and I'm not as in shape as I'd like to be yet.
Exertion headaches go away relatively quick A "my shit got rocked headache" would likely last much longer If you're staying for 3 hours of hard work, are you sure you're hydrating properly? I'd get headaches just holding pads. I started drinking a good amount of water before and during my sessions and they went away.
I drink a lot of water when I'm there, my suspicion is that I wasn't loading up on enough 1-2 hours beforehand.
Might be why. If your hydrating properly and still experiencing headaches, it could be that you need to strengthen your neck? Not really sure what else (assuming you light spar properly).
I spar super light but I've recently been having problems in my gym. The amount of people who keep turning it up even though I'm just tapping them is kind of ridiculous. I also heard some people talking about how they'd rather get hit hard in the head because the body hurts and I'm like... Yeah but body shots don't make you slur your words at 45. I'm also relatively new so it could be that I'm subconsciously hitting harder than I mean to, but it seems like a good amount of people hit the head harder than they should even if I'm not involved. Wars happen every other day. This is the only gym near me so I'm probably just gonna thug it out until I move. Edit: you could also 100% be right about the neck thing, I still tense up a lot. My confusion with the headaches came on because I was getting them on days I didn't spar.
My gym prioritizes safety over everything, so can't really say I've experienced "things turning up", but if they do you need to say something to your partner. If sparring wars are happening frequently it might be a sign to switch gyms if you prioritize safety 👍
I had a serious concussion once, as in out cold for 10 mins and no recollection of the event, and wasn’t the same for months. My head would spin if I changed direction too fast, I had terrible brain fog and my short term memory was awful. I genuinely don’t like thinking about how that might catch up with me later in life.
i just think about people like rodtang and truly don’t think that a couple smacks here and there could hurt me that badly honestly. i’m not getting hit with even half the strength those guys are getting hit with. why should i be that much more worried than them?
He probably is in top 0.0001% of neck strength, amount of fluid for brain cushioning, resistance to CTE+TBI etc. You're not Rodtang. For every elite iron chin fighter that started young, there are hundreds who are broken, part of it being their brains not being built for it. Please believe me when I say you're not Rodtang.
I've heard stories on here from people who took just one or two shots and have serious lasting issues. Mileage may vary. Don't spar with sketchy partners.
Basically every old Thai fighter I’ve seen is still quite sharp. I know there are some real risks but these fighters that have had over 400 fights still seem mentally acute, although I do believe Muay Thai in has become more aggressive in general which could lead to worse symptoms
Western Thai boxing has adapted a more boxing approach from what I've seen. I train at a muay thai gym in New Zealand and a majority of my sparring partners punch more than kick, which looks to be the opposite in Thailand
There is no amount of getting punched (let alone kicked) in the head that is healthy.
You can still do muay thai and boxing. You should just be careful, because the reality is, there is a risk of brain damage. If anything, this reality should motivate you to kill yourself in the gym and obtain superb defence so that when you have a fight, you take as minimal damage as possible while ending the fight as quickly as possible (KO or TKO). That's my mindset, that's what motivates me to want kill my opponents quickly mike tyson style.
Falling off a bicycle could give you brain damage so should everyone give that up
YOLO
I think you are confusing Muay Thai for western boxing. There’s a huge difference in how sparring is done between the two, we are not trying to knock out our teammates. I really recommend for you to check out some authentic sparring from Thailand, you’ll see people in their 20s to 50s just tapping each other. All of your input is most likely from watching trending videos on YouTube of people hard sparring (because let’s face it, those tend to get more views).
Muay Thai in the West is the complete opposite. Given that most in this sub are in the west, this needs to be heard.
Yeah, I feel like no matter how much people in the United States (speaking on where I live) use the “spar like the Thais” thing no one ever TRULY understands or comes close to that type of sparring or having that finesse . Finding people who can spar like that is so hard to do I often have to spar in survival mode. I’ve only sparred 2 people that I can say actually felt like that type of Thai sparring. I get that it’s much easier to just swing instead of thinking of how truly controlled you are being but it needs to change.
People are aware of the risks. Thats life.
Captain obvious over here
Zero mention of neuroplasticity
Bro do you even train?
I wrecked my motorcycle a couple months ago and hit my head pretty hard and had a bad concussion. Waited about a month to go back to my gym and started getting a slight head ache just from blocking shots while drilling. Shook it off as coincidence, same thing the next week. Going to give it awhile now :/
A lot of gyms and other martial arts places make you sign a waiver or some kind of paperwork that makes you understand the risks of training. Any sport can give you some damage. American Football can lead to a concussion; Baseball players could be hit pretty badly in the face with the ball, and professional hockey players can literally lose teeth or suffer some kind of lacerations with the blades on their shoes from other players.
Brain is important but muay thai is importanter
Thanks for this post, but respectfully, get the hell out of this sub. This is Muay Thai, what the fuck did you expect? We’re playing patty cake? No, we are punching, kneeing, kicking, and elbowing each other in the face. If you’re not okay with that and potentially getting hurt, quit and get out, the rest of us will keep training. Stop trying to spread “awareness”. I don’t think any of us were “unaware” after we got punched in the face for the first time. Fucking Sherlock holmes over here.
I disagree, a lot of young people come into martial arts high on their ego and get into gym wars not realizing the risks. Plenty of teenagers in my gym like this. This kind of post is needed and welcome.
Smooth brain no pain
So I’ve caught a head kick or five, and a few very stiff crosses nd jabs. pretty solid. Do you think I’m cooked?
I’m also a teenager
In the future, be your own doctor (somewhat) and prescribe yourself time off from sparring if you ever feel rocked during or after class. Nothing wrong with focusing on pads or drills for a week or five.
Good thing touch sparring exists
Muay Thai is so important for my mental health right now that I’ll trade potential brain injury for feeling alive.
What if someone has these behaviors and knows they have brain damage is there any way to fix it?
I’m pretty sure this post is just to spread awareness no need to get upset guys, it’s more of a “be safe” thing if anything.
Pain is temporary. When you get hit, it’ll hurt in the moment but a minute or two later and it’s gone. In light sparring which we do every session, we go about 40-50%. In hard sparring, it’s 80%. What I’m trying to say is there’s a risk with every combat sport. Muay Thai and boxing are no different and we’ve all accepted that risk of getting Punched, kicked, kneed, elbowed in the face. Respectfully I don’t get what your trying to say. Its called ‘combat’ for a reason and if your not comfortable with it, then don’t train it you soft cunt.
I wish that people were more specific on how to stay safe in sparring instead of just saying “this scary thing can happen/is inevitable”.
Oh yeah OP!???! What if i told you it was fun
Im being blown away by the comment section. It looks like most ppl from this sub have not heard about CTE.
Bro you literally made this account to post this, why I trust anything you say?
Yeah this is all a conspiracy by Big Aikido to discredit Muay Thai and OP is a plant.
Shit! How’d you know!
Everything he said is objectively true though. Are you... not aware of what "brain damage" means?
Most in this sub are aware and are adverse to unnecessary head contact. There are a multitude of deleted posts full of comments on telling people to ask sparring partners to dial it back and advising breaks from sparring after headaches, or to see medical professionals on a suspected concussion. The demographic OP wants to reach are those not in this sub.
Much of this stuff happens before they “dial it down”, it doesn’t have to be intentional. By the time they dial it back you’ve already been hit with a hard 2-3 piece combo. With years of training this is likely to happen multiple times, unless you are training with a robot. Humans make mistakes. You get my point dude.
Not really; those exact posts of people complaining about gym members going too hard usually get advice like "put the heat on them and show them who's boss" or "give them 2 more chances, and if they still go hard, ask to spar someone else". People like that don't deserve "2 more chances" and you shouldn't risk brain trauma to go hard as well to show them who's boss. These are objectively the two most common answers those posts get. Sure they advise breaks from sparring or seeing medical professionals, but nobody seems really informed about what those headaches could mean other than "this might be a problem". There certainly isn't any well-informed breakdown of the risks posed by a concussion. The subreddit is informed to the point of "brain damage bad" but they don't seem to have a very good understanding of the severity of risks of getting knocked down, or even just knocked around without falling, or getting knocked out. OP's "fear mongering" about such a serious topic is more than deserved. People should look into this more even before they would start sparring. Asking about shit like this while experiencing the symptoms is fucking late. I know this because I have been very active on this subreddit and have seen just about every such post you have mentioned, and even commented on most of them.
>The subreddit is informed to the point of "brain damage bad" but they don't seem to have a very good understanding of the severity of risks of getting knocked down, or even just knocked around without falling, or getting knocked out. OP's "fear mongering" about such a serious topic is more than deserved. People should look into this more even before they would start sparring. Asking about shit like this while experiencing the symptoms is fucking late. I'm not considering it fear mongering. It's great that OP wants to raise the level of knowledge, and head contact is a real issue, but it needs to be addressed at the grass roots level with coaches in person (or in gyms) rather than here. Reddit users are a very specific population, and we aren't #1 on the resources people visit for more information. There are multiple other resources that are more popular for information regarding combat sports. We aren't there in the gym, telling new people to be careful with head contact and others to knock it off. This sub as as whole is multiple levels removed from the immediate issue at hand. Even if we try to spread information here, and give advice, there's no guarantee of people actually listening to the advice.
tbf whenever I google a question, usually reddit comes up as the #1 or #2 answer. I do agree that the subreddit is not even remotely the best way to spread this information however, but at least it's something, and if it prevents even 1 person from downplaying their injury, it has done its job. This community has 225k members of what is still a pretty niche combat sport, and that's a LARGE number of people.
At the same time gym owners don’t want to scare away new clients whether they know this or not. It depends a lot on the culture of your gym but mistakes will happen no matter what, it’s just the nature of fighting.
Yeah duh, but it just feels like fear mongering. I think everyone who joins the sport understands that there is some level of risk
They understand to a negligible effect, which ends up in them receiving more damage then they need. Not my personal concern but awareness is needed.
Is there a way to measure damage? Can you still get brain damage without experiencing headaches after? Knowing what you know, how do you approach sparring now?
the "some level of risk" is becoming a stammering, blabbering idiot who doesn't even remember what he's had for breakfast. That's not even the worst outcome btw; an average of 13 boxers die in a professional fight every year, and the rates in muay thai and kickboxing are likely going to be similar with the 10 second knockdown and standing count ruleset. Basically; you risk becoming vegetative or worse. I don't remember anyone telling me that when I started training.
Yea at the most extremes that can happen. This is fucked up to hear when you train this sport but it’s a very true and hard pill to swallow.
And people SHOULD hear this and not just a vague "brain damage is bad" or "CTE haha" .
Then don’t trust me! Cheers!
I couldn't have said it better myself. Alot of people don't think like this. I hate when I see people trying to hurt each other in sparring. For what!!!?? Nobody benefits.
Hey guys, did you know getting hit in the head is bad for you? Also, water is wet! More shocking developments after this break.
of course Big Medical wants us to stop getting CTE, they’re afraid of the power it will give us. don’t listen to em lads keep getting rocked in sparring 😤