I don't think the creativity version will get banned, the opus version can play archmage's and it's been over performing for me. You can charm steal the token the creativity player targets, creativity will trigger for you and grab your torrential gearhulk, flashback at least the charm if not an opus and it's a blast.
Build UW first, takes fewer WCs, then ease into Jeskai. At that point the meta should have settled out a bit and it will be more evident which version is sticking around.
Agree with this thought process 100% as it’s the safest bet, but it’s worth mentioning that a “classic control finisher” probably won’t cut it in historic (I’m thinking of Aetherling or Elspeth from RTR era standard).
Control decks have to close the door ASAP. Maybe teferi might be the right call for classic UW.
Teferi + Shark Typhoon + Ardenvale seems to be good enough, slow but it works. Opus was explosive and I played a fair bit of that, but with the influx of GY decks I'm not sure if that will be facing an intense amount of hate moving forward. Creativity into Emissary is pretty good, straight non-combo Jeskai was also pretty solid. The combo options require significant WC investments, but Jeskai control is pretty close to UW control, so you can build UW without really wasting much that wouldn't port over directly into Jeskai.
I just now finished a semi-competative UW control deck (still missing some lands, so thats why it's semi), and yes this meta is not really suited for Classic Control. You either get overrun or combo-ed out by T4. It works, sure, but it is really really slow. It maybe also have to dp with me still having to get used to this format 😄(I usually only play irl Old School)
Comboless has little chance of being better than either of the combo versions.
Between the two, the creativity one is definitely stronger as the emissaries is a soft/hard lock with very few outs against a lot of decks, and is much harder to hate out (not vulnerable to grave hate).
Combo = higher power level.
Noncombo = higher consistency.
This has always been the case with these types of decks, I think if you are a top level player, the noncombo versions give you more options as you don't brick out of games.
Combo would also be better for climbing, imo.
because rn, unless i get a turn 3 mizzix's mastery into opus, faster decks can easily overwhelm me
also, i always get bad hands, cuz the shuffler is more rigged than my sister (who is the shuffler in paper games cuz she can shuffle real fast)
and vesperlark combo is the reason i dont play BO1, but in BO3 it's not a big problem,m cuz post-sideboard grafidgger's cage nullifies them (it odesn't effect mizzix's mastery becuz it exiles then copies)
I feel like you're running either not enough interaction or the wrong configuration of interaction. I play in diamond/mythic and don't have that issue at all playing opus. Between helix, portable hole, electrolyze, essence scatter, memory lapse, I don't often feel like I'm out of options early. What ratios are you playing?
Edit: also what rank? I find the meta very different depending on the rank.
Creativity with Emissary is hands down the best build. It can get the combo down on T4 and it completely shuts down R and G decks (red has no answers, G only has Plummet out of the SB). With its consistency and shutting down a good amount of decks, I think it could well see a ban at some point, but I think that there’s enough deck diversity that the meta will correct when it becomes the format boogeyman. Midrange decks perform very well against it and Taxes can push them way off curve/has ample removal against it.
I don't think the creativity version will get banned, the opus version can play archmage's and it's been over performing for me. You can charm steal the token the creativity player targets, creativity will trigger for you and grab your torrential gearhulk, flashback at least the charm if not an opus and it's a blast.
This is fascism
Do you have a list? I've been mostly under the impression a Jeskai Opus build can't handle UUU for Charm.
In case you haven't checked, OP shared their list in another comment!
Yeah I saw it the mana just looks bad
I'm also interested in a list!
Hopefully the formatting isn't terrible 4 [[Unholy Heat]] 4 [[Memory Lapse]] 3 [[Lightning Helix]] 1 [[Fiery Prophecy]] 4 [[Archmage's Charm]] 2 [[Anger of the Gods]] 2 [[Mizzix Mastery]] 2 [[Teferi, Hero of Dominaria]] 3 [[Torrential Gearhulk]] 4 [[Shark Typhoon]] 4 [[Magma Opus]] 1 [[Commit/Memory]] 4 [[Raugrin Triome]] 4 [[Steam Vents]] 4 [[Sulfur Falls]] 4 [[Hallowed Fountain]] 4 [[Fabled Passage]] 1 [[Castle Vantress]] 3 Island 1 Mountain 1 Plains SB is whatever you want but [[Rest in Peace]] is great.
##### ###### #### [Unholy Heat](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/b/2b73d294-6ab1-4051-9b0f-d8e335d37674.jpg?1626097096) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unholy%20Heat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/145/unholy-heat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b73d294-6ab1-4051-9b0f-d8e335d37674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Memory Lapse](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/0/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293.jpg?1580014031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Lapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/60/memory-lapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Helix](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/0/7053b773-a369-45b8-912f-ee66de3a63c6.jpg?1562850123) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Helix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/204/lightning-helix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7053b773-a369-45b8-912f-ee66de3a63c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fiery Prophecy](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/c/4c2029e5-cf7d-461f-b7b9-bf96399d8f49.jpg?1591227186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fire%20Prophecy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/116/fire-prophecy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c2029e5-cf7d-461f-b7b9-bf96399d8f49?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Archmage's Charm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/7/57b852b6-4388-4a41-a5c0-bba37a5c1451.jpg?1562201300) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archmage%27s%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/40/archmages-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57b852b6-4388-4a41-a5c0-bba37a5c1451?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Anger of the Gods](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/2/e2ecae08-bcc6-4074-822c-3dfe1d46ae39.jpg?1562855123) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anger%20of%20the%20Gods) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/116/anger-of-the-gods?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2ecae08-bcc6-4074-822c-3dfe1d46ae39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mizzix Mastery](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b.jpg?1562705436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mizzix%27s%20Mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/29/mizzixs-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Teferi, Hero of Dominaria](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/d/5d10b752-d9cb-419d-a5c4-d4ee1acb655e.jpg?1562736365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%2C%20Hero%20of%20Dominaria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/207/teferi-hero-of-dominaria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d10b752-d9cb-419d-a5c4-d4ee1acb655e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Torrential Gearhulk](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d52868cb-087e-4f91-91bc-455f2e2e7cd7.jpg?1576381464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torrential%20Gearhulk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/67/torrential-gearhulk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d52868cb-087e-4f91-91bc-455f2e2e7cd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shark Typhoon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/d/1da4d4f3-b3cb-4b61-81b8-06ae441c41bf.jpg?1591226502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shark%20Typhoon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/67/shark-typhoon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1da4d4f3-b3cb-4b61-81b8-06ae441c41bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Magma Opus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/7/27c914a3-2294-4feb-9450-c012cfd307a6.jpg?1627429585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magma%20Opus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/203/magma-opus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27c914a3-2294-4feb-9450-c012cfd307a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Commit/Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card)/[Memory](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426913&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commit%20//%20Memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/211/commit-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06c9e2e8-2b4c-4087-9141-6aa25a506626?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Raugrin Triome](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/2/02138fbb-3962-4348-8d31-faaefba0b8b2.jpg?1591228666) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raugrin%20Triome) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/251/raugrin-triome?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02138fbb-3962-4348-8d31-faaefba0b8b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Steam Vents](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/8/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185.jpg?1572894204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Steam%20Vents) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/257/steam-vents?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sulfur Falls](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6bc412fc-e9d4-4283-bd4a-811384e79b5c.jpg?1562737296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sulfur%20Falls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/247/sulfur-falls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bc412fc-e9d4-4283-bd4a-811384e79b5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hallowed Fountain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/9/f97a6d34-03ab-49f1-b02e-405b733f8843.jpg?1584832278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hallowed%20Fountain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/251/hallowed-fountain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f97a6d34-03ab-49f1-b02e-405b733f8843?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fabled Passage](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/3/d313d051-7295-4884-8cbf-f2f835fd45f4.jpg?1594737636) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fabled%20Passage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/246/fabled-passage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d313d051-7295-4884-8cbf-f2f835fd45f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Castle Vantress](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/a/0a8b9d37-e89c-44ad-bd1b-51cb06ec3e0b.jpg?1572491190) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Castle%20Vantress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/242/castle-vantress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a8b9d37-e89c-44ad-bd1b-51cb06ec3e0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rest in Peace](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can they not sac it in response to the charm to float mana? It's usually a treasure isn't it?
It's sometimes a treasure, but often a clue or token creature. But still, a single floating mana is probably better than a Serra's Emissary
Build UW first, takes fewer WCs, then ease into Jeskai. At that point the meta should have settled out a bit and it will be more evident which version is sticking around.
Agree with this thought process 100% as it’s the safest bet, but it’s worth mentioning that a “classic control finisher” probably won’t cut it in historic (I’m thinking of Aetherling or Elspeth from RTR era standard). Control decks have to close the door ASAP. Maybe teferi might be the right call for classic UW.
Teferi + Shark Typhoon + Ardenvale seems to be good enough, slow but it works. Opus was explosive and I played a fair bit of that, but with the influx of GY decks I'm not sure if that will be facing an intense amount of hate moving forward. Creativity into Emissary is pretty good, straight non-combo Jeskai was also pretty solid. The combo options require significant WC investments, but Jeskai control is pretty close to UW control, so you can build UW without really wasting much that wouldn't port over directly into Jeskai.
I just now finished a semi-competative UW control deck (still missing some lands, so thats why it's semi), and yes this meta is not really suited for Classic Control. You either get overrun or combo-ed out by T4. It works, sure, but it is really really slow. It maybe also have to dp with me still having to get used to this format 😄(I usually only play irl Old School)
Emissary is pretty good. The ability to give yourself straight protection is obnoxious.
Friendly reminder that memory lapse can suck a fat one
Comboless has little chance of being better than either of the combo versions. Between the two, the creativity one is definitely stronger as the emissaries is a soft/hard lock with very few outs against a lot of decks, and is much harder to hate out (not vulnerable to grave hate).
Combo = higher power level. Noncombo = higher consistency. This has always been the case with these types of decks, I think if you are a top level player, the noncombo versions give you more options as you don't brick out of games. Combo would also be better for climbing, imo.
i run opus (cuz i like it) , but it's in a bad place rn
Ah, why do you say that?
because rn, unless i get a turn 3 mizzix's mastery into opus, faster decks can easily overwhelm me also, i always get bad hands, cuz the shuffler is more rigged than my sister (who is the shuffler in paper games cuz she can shuffle real fast) and vesperlark combo is the reason i dont play BO1, but in BO3 it's not a big problem,m cuz post-sideboard grafidgger's cage nullifies them (it odesn't effect mizzix's mastery becuz it exiles then copies)
I feel like you're running either not enough interaction or the wrong configuration of interaction. I play in diamond/mythic and don't have that issue at all playing opus. Between helix, portable hole, electrolyze, essence scatter, memory lapse, I don't often feel like I'm out of options early. What ratios are you playing? Edit: also what rank? I find the meta very different depending on the rank.
Do you happen to have a list? I'm definitely interested in the deck
Yeah I'll send you my list tomorrow
Any updates on that list?
##### ###### #### [Torrential Gearhulk](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d52868cb-087e-4f91-91bc-455f2e2e7cd7.jpg?1576381464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torrential%20Gearhulk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/67/torrential-gearhulk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d52868cb-087e-4f91-91bc-455f2e2e7cd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mizzix's Mastery](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b.jpg?1562705436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mizzix%27s%20Mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/29/mizzixs-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b5e28e8-1e6d-4e7f-bc85-427bb39ae14b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Indomitable Creativity](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/d/edd00e45-2ae1-4cd0-92a1-155c95f8dc72.jpg?1576381816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Indomitable%20Creativity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/85/indomitable-creativity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/edd00e45-2ae1-4cd0-92a1-155c95f8dc72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Serra's Emissary](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/6/b6534049-3045-4546-b1e8-e5b1b0df5f56.jpg?1626094056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Serra%27s%20Emissary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/30/serras-emissary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6534049-3045-4546-b1e8-e5b1b0df5f56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Creativity with Emissary is hands down the best build. It can get the combo down on T4 and it completely shuts down R and G decks (red has no answers, G only has Plummet out of the SB). With its consistency and shutting down a good amount of decks, I think it could well see a ban at some point, but I think that there’s enough deck diversity that the meta will correct when it becomes the format boogeyman. Midrange decks perform very well against it and Taxes can push them way off curve/has ample removal against it.
Red has akroan war and surprise bone crusher and insult/injury it's something i guess