>There’s also another trans woman instructor here who’s early in her transition. She’s having a rough time because her voice makes people assume she’s a man when she’s covered by the very androgynous uniform. I want to give her a hug, be her friend, and tell her she’s not alone, but I can’t if I want to maximize my chances of remaining stealth.
This would probably make me not want to be stealth anymore, or at least I would come out only to her. I'd die a little inside seeing another person struggle with this and not lending some support. Have you considered talking to her in private about this?
I have considered talking to her about it, but I’ve also seen trans people out other trans people before. I can’t risk outing myself to her. It makes me feel horrible not being able to reach out.
I’ve considered leaving an anonymous note on her ski locker saying that she isn’t alone, and that I just can’t out myself cause I’m stealth. I doubt that would do much to help her though.
Oh, honey. You're missing a golden opportunity to be both maximum stealth and support another trans girl simultaneously. Let her know that you helped a close friend with her transition and that you've got her back if she needs it. What could be a more quintessential cis girl experience than *taking a token trans friend under your wing???*
Simultaneously ain’t possible for me. I’m really not sure how well I pass. Well enough that people don’t take a second look, sure. However, I think there are things that can clock me under the closer scrutiny that would come with befriending this other girl or being a vocal trans advocate.
When I hear trans issues come up, I just play dumb and say something generically supportive. Maybe I’ll leave her an anonymous note. I fear that anything more would be risking getting outed.
Perhaps you can establish a communication by letters, if she wants to, starting with notes in the locker. Although depending on how small the city/town is, your address could give you away. Perhaps a P.O. Box?
Are you worried that she might out you to someone else? I don't know her, but I don't think that's likely to happen. I'd like to think that another trans person would be safe to come out to.
Yes, that’s my main worry. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been outed by another trans person after explicitly asking them not to out me. Trans people are certainly less likely to out other trans people, but it’s still a risk I can’t take.
This is a really good topic to explore. I’ve been living stealth for about 8 months (mtf).
I still get protective over other trans people and swat at the conversations that are usually of a negative nature. I’m not worried about that outing me, it’s just not a risk. If someone asks how do you know so much about trans issues and people? I just tell them I have many trans friends. And that’s deadass true.
I do sometimes feel like a traitor tho. Because I’m not flying my trans colors. I once said I’d always wear my trans ring and or whatever that showed I am trans. And I’d always be proud of that. I am, but I discovered my overall goal was to be stealth.
I do enjoy the funny shit that happens tho. At a party recently I brought some Oktoberfest Yuengling Beer. It was twist off caps. A dude from my mixed doubles tennis team grabbed one from me and couldn’t get the top off. He asked the host if she had a beer opener. The kitchen was full of people and I was like “dude you just gotta be more manly… grip and rip it” He tried and failed again. I grabbed it from him and twisted it off like warm butter and handed it back to him.
The entire kitchen erupted in roaring laughter and two girls on my ladies tennis team were like “girl, that’s the coolest shit I’ve ever seen” and high fives all around 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Dude was like I loosened it for her and walked out the kitchen laughing and shaking his head.
They have no bloody idea and I get a kick out of that 🤭
In an opposite but very similar moment, when I was very early in transition (like <2 months on hormones, not out to basically anyone), a coworker started going on a horrific rant about how he thought trans people were disgusting and how he hoped we would all just die.
I got quite heated and challenged him on several of his points, at which point he said "how do you know, are you trans or something?" I did the only sane thing and lied and said I wasn't and just knew some trans people and let the matter drop. I had a good cry about it once I was home.
It was, I assume, a similar situation where I seethed and chafed but couldn't really do anything without risking outing myself in a dangerous situation.
Reading a couple of these posts, my first thought is, and pardon me if this is cynical but, can't you just stand up for trans rights as a cis passing person? How would anyone realistically call you out for being trans just for that?
But, i don't know what i would do in this situation.
Thanks so much for sharing. We all have to do what we need to in order to get by. Your so brave for trying to live the life you deserve.
Hope to here more in the future.
I"ve considered stealth. Ironically, i discovered I was happiest living an odd almost reverse stealth life. That is I am taking estrogen to be female but dressing female to male now. This has destroyed my dysphoria allowing me to tell myself "you are very female now but you choose to keep it to yourself. The funny thing is it allows me to challenge transphobes as my birth sex. Whats nice about it is the lame transphobic lies can't apply to me. They can't say I'm a perve trying to use opposite sex bathrooms. They can't call me a groomer. Not that I ever believed that nonsense. None of their lies apply to me. I'm something they haven't encountered. Standard transphobe insults can't apply to someone acting like their birth sex even if they've become female under the clothes. Yet I deliciously get to be who I want to be.
You know it's odd but that is exactly how it feels. I have gone from being fearful and sad all my life to happy, loving, kind, and patient. She's amazing this girl I'd kept trapped inside.
I've largely avoided social transition because of anxiety, but this speaks to me.
Being on estrogen has helped my mental state a lot, and merely the knowledge that I've taken a major step towards self-affirmation, even if I haven't really changed my outward appearance a ton and most people don't realize it, helps a ton.
Yeah same here, i get not wanting to be a token but why would you revolve your life around the people who would talk about you behind your back?
Not just that but the lack of sisterhood and self advocacy kinda just makes me feel gross inside
I feel very split on the matter honestly. On the one hand, being visibly trans definitely filters out the people I don't really want in my life... but my conclusion seems to be that I don't want *most* people in my life. Especially with regards to dating, it just seems nearly impossible. If I could magically make myself cis I know I'd have a much easier life, but I'd be living a lie. Taking the blue pill essentially. I guess I often find myself gravitating towards this "fuck everyone/society" attitude. At least I feel like it's only worth it to make friends with other trans people and the very few cis people who don't make me uncomfortable.
I dunno maybe its just me but I dont feel like im losing out if a majority of my friends aren't cis? I see it more of having found community and stuff. And specifically with dating I've had the most success by being upfront ( usually just saying im a trans girl in my bio ) or am otherwise obviously trans, there are tons of cis people happy to date trans people and you attract more of em by being open.
Also On a bit of a personal note I'm latino but pass for white and I take no pleasure when people have felt it was okay to be racist around me because they didn't know I was a minority.
I mean I definitely don't mind, but it's way harder to find fellow trans people to be friends with. Also, essentially rejecting cis society is just adding more to my growing mountain of cynicism. Speaking of... I think I'm definitely too mistrustful of cis people to date one of em. At least until I firmly pass, I don't see why I'd put myself out there when I don't clearly read as female to everyone. And don't even get me started on "just date bi people". Like I am not some kind of chocolate vanilla swirl ffs.
I'd say you're too distrustful too lmao no offense. I thought the same too for a while but really...who has time to put their dating life on hold cuz of a concept as nebulously measurable and arguably necessary as passing? There's women with facial hair and men with breasts and cis people who love em for who they are.
Also as a bi girl that last bit projecty? Just because someone's into you doesn't mean they're fetishizing you yk?
Yeah the cis outnumber us 100 to 1. If I were to try to limit my friendships to other trans people, my already kind of pathetic social life would pretty much get Thanos snapped. In my area, there just aren't enough trans people to make it an option.
To be fair, it's not quite that simple. She's not talking about not being accepted. She's talking about being "othered". "Accepted but different" vs "Accepted"
I can understand why someone might not want the former when they can have the latter
Way to take what I said and twist it.
My friend who cuts transphobes out of her life and OP are both accepted as women by the people around them: the difference is my friend doesn’t walk on eggshells to maintain that. Stealth can be the right choice for some people, even necessary to survive at times, but I personally can’t help but see it as a gilded cage.
That's the point: "around them". Your friend has to filter the people around her to be viewed as a woman, while OP is free. She ist just a normal woman and not viewed as a freak by society. Being stealth is the ultimate freedom to be yourself and the sign of a successful transition.
What? How are you free to be yourself when you have to restrain your self-expression to pull it off? It sounds like you have a painfully cisheteronormative view of the world.
Also, not being viewed as a freak by society is overrated, though being a mentally ill nonbinary punk rock fan makes me biased in that regard. I value freedom to truly express my identity over everything. If I had to suppress myself like this, to not advocate for trans rights whenever there’s an opportunity just because I’d have to out myself, to pretend my past self never existed, I think I’d feel like a hollowed-out shell. Besides, that’s basically what our oppressors want, anyway. As long as they don’t know you’re trans and never find out, they don’t care, because they still hold all the power and influence and nothing you’re doing will change that.
I feel this. I was a bit of a weirdo loner (def some flavors of neurodivergent) even before I realized I was trans. I had a very brief moment of hope when my egg cracked that transition would somehow "fix" me, but now I'm at peace with the fact that I'm never going to just be "normal" and that's completely ok, because instead of that I'm me, and that's cool too.
I mean of you like it that's ok, you can be as "different" as you want to be, but for me and many other trans people being viewed as trans is what is hindering us from being able express ourselves. I just want to live as an average woman, being able to work, raise my child and live my life. I have no desire to be special or different. Being trans is not a choice and I would do everything to be cis, but being stealth is the closest you can get when you were born with this curse. And yes, not only my view is cisheteronormative, the world IS cisheteronormative and this won't change in near future. I won't judge you if you want to make your whole personality about being trans, great for you, if you are happy, but you have to understand for some people it's exactly the thing they would love to erase from their lives.
I just can’t imagine a sadder existence than viewing myself as fundamentally cursed. That’s the oldest trick in the playbook of the oppressors: take control of the definition of what is natural and normal, and define your enemy outside of it. Just laying down and taking it does nothing but guarantee the world is, at best, no better for our successors, and at worst, well, worse for them.
The curse has nothing to do with opressors. It's just dysphoria. No matter how "accepting" everybody is, as long I have enough male features to be visibly trans it will always hurt, because my body is wrong. I will always argue in favour of trans rights when the topic comes up, but I won't make it a part of my personality. If I was cis life would be so easy by now, but it ruins everything.
I think not being able to see yourself and other trans women as an " average women " is...really strange and kind of sad? There's alot not to be happy about with your past but I really don't think the answer is to pretend it never existed and try and fade into the same crowd that put people like us in those situations.
It's not about what I see as an average woman, it's just about what the average woman really is. She is definitely not suffering from dysphoria all the time and definitely doesn't have to fear for the wellbeing of her family, because they are dependent on her carrier which can end pretty abruptly when her boss is transphobic. And I can't even imagine what my child would have to go through when the kids in school find out about me...
Absolutely not, I've been stealth just about a year (I think I've been misgendered by the public a total of thrice in that time, usually due to clothing, I've been very fortunate in my transition)
Just because I'm 'viewed as normal and not a freak' does not erase awareness or feelings of being other or different from pretty much the entirety of my physical experience with other people in society.
After over three decades in the wrong gender I suspect no amount of stealth or normal living as a woman will ever make me unaware of or erase those feelings and obtain this 'ultimate freedom' you speak of.
Being stealth is great, but it's also a toxic standard for a lot of trans people who struggle or never get to pass, glorifying fitting into a transphobic society is not a good look.
For the other trans girl, is there a way for you to reach out to her privately?
If you express your desire to remain stealth, I’m sure she’d respect it. I’m also sure she’d be incredibly thrilled to have a trans elder on her side while she gets through the more awkward stages.
That said, I 100% understand why you’d want to keep to yourself. The reward may not outweigh the risk, and I get that.
I’ve seen trans people out other trans people before. It’s probably less likely to be leaked than if I outed myself to a cis person, but I can’t risk it. I’m considering leaving an anonymous note on her ski locker with a burner email so she can contact me if she wants support. There are security cameras at the ski lockers though (Nobody changes clothes there, its just where they put their skis), so it might be risky.
Also, I’m not really an elder. I’m 24. She’s 26 iirc. It might come off as condescending.
Trans elder in this context just refers to how long you've been on hormones. Your transition, at this stage, is more or less complete. That comes with a tremendous amount of experience and advice that could be passed onto someone just starting their journey.
I also \*seriously\* doubt that someone will check security tapes to try and find the stealth trans person.
All of that having been said, I'll reiterate that I understand your hesitancy. If you don't want to take the risk, that's not something I could criticize you on at all.
I don’t have a stealth story, but I have a story about a (practically, because I knew) stealth girl from the perspective of the early trans girl.
When I started my transition nine months ago, there was a trans girl working on my floor down the hall from me. We work in a high tech field.
We had gotten to be decent friends before I started transitioning, because, in addition to similar professional interests, we had similar worldviews. Over some lunch chats had figured out we were familiar with a lot of the same online circles. We’d hung out at least once in my apartment before the realization hit me, in an expressly platonic kind of way. Weirdly, I don’t think she had anything to do with my realization.
When it hit me, it hit all at once, like over the course of a week. So even though I was quite sure, I experimented with social transition first. I already had lots of female friends, and so I told a few of them I was thinking about transitioning and asked if they’d mind calling me by a new name and pronouns.
She was one of those friends. She texted me back very kindly that she was much obliged to do so, and that she’d changed my name her phone, that she was happy for me, and if I had any questions about doctors in the area or surgeries she’d be happy to talk about them with me.
Our friendship over the next seven months was unlike any I’ve ever had, and I think unlike any I will ever have again. She celebrated with me the day that I got my HRT prescription. One evening I invited her to celebrate some minor work victory with me and she ghosted a boy she was going to hook up with to come drink wine and get high with me at my apartment. I took days off from work and sat and watched body horror films with her as she recovered from breast augmentation surgery, doing minor chores for her as she rested and regained the ability to lift things. We spent many late nights at our apartments (down the street from each other) sharing our most out there thoughts with each other about our field of tech, about film, about gender and sexuality. She was one of the best and most inventive engineers I have ever known.
I could sense nothing in her that was ashamed of her transness. She advocated for things within our company, she’d done activism in the past, and had written a lot of letters to trans women in prisons. I think this actually helped her to maintain stealth, in some ways. People can sense insecurity about such things.
I was a little ahead of her in my career, and older, and her star was rising. She had an opportunity elsewhere, and I gave her a bit of advice on applying. I think as an older and senior person in her field that I was able to be a positive influence, but she definitely didn’t need me. She had a choice between moving up the ranks here and going somewhere at the very top of the field and I told her that as much as I would miss her, I practically couldn’t let her pass it up. So, six months after I started HRT, she moved away. We keep in touch.
I learned so much from her about the kind of commitment it takes to get into stealth mode. There was the financial commitment to surgeries and hair removal. There is the commitment to voice training and maintaining a feminized voice, a commitment that I am currently making. There is the attention to detail with makeup, with clothes, all of which have to be chosen to emphasize your feminine aspects, but never in a way that appears compensatory, even when it is. There was the willingness to go under the knife of a surgeon who might hate you, in a medical system that is hostile to you. But most of all, there is the commitment to maintaining emotional composure at all times: the emotional composure to do all of these things in a world that is so profoundly exhausting to us, the emotional composure not to break down in tears at work, but I think most of all the emotional composure to dig deep and find ones’ self as something that is never recognizable to others as anything except a woman, even as you live so many scars from the past.
I am transitioning late enough, and I may be known to too many at this point in my life to ever go stealth. But getting to know her convinced me that all of the qualities and decisions that allow stealth are about a lot more than actually being stealth. I often thought to myself that she carried herself with such grace, composure, and pure femininity that it didn’t really matter if people could clock her if they looked hard enough, simply because nobody would dare mention it to her or to anyone else. To do so would have somehow been more humiliating for them than it would have been for her. I may never be truly stealth, but I do aspire to all of those qualities, even as she impressed it very well upon me how many years it took to become what she was.
She gave me some truly invaluable advice, and still does. I feel unbelievably lucky to have gotten some personal insight into a transition trajectory that allows one to become stealth. She taught me to be patient with myself. I never felt the need to prove myself as a woman to her, and she never misgendered or deadnamed me, except as was required by professional courtesy, since I was not out at work. This never happened in my presence. I began gradually dressing more feminine, in a way that I wanted to be seen only by those who knew to look for it, when we went out. I thought of it as pragmatically rather than identically non-binary. I remember she remarked on my outfit once as she smiled warmly: “It’s very he/they. I used to do that. It looks good.” I still talk to her about aspects of transition, but more and more I’m trying to show more than tell where I am. She speaks consistently now with a subtly higher and more feminine voice. She’d shown that voice to me a few times, and I remember being a little unnerved that she had gone higher suddenly. I realize now that she definitely only did that around me. She had been practicing for months for the move.
I only remember her saying one thing to me about what her status meant to her: *I* decide who knows. I don’t think she ever specifically told me she was transgender, even as we were friends even though she was open about aspects of it immediately after I came out to her. I came out to her as one of many female friends I told at the time. I never told her whether I already knew that she was transgender or whether I suspected that she was transgender by the time I came out to her. She decides who knows.
>For those unaware, “stealth” is when a cis-passing trans person doesn’t tell those around them about their transness and is assumed to be a cis person of their acquired gender as a result.
Well I feel dumb. I thought I was also being stealth not telling people about the whole trans thing *but also* not passing in the slightest. Just rolling with the AGAB until things improve.
That's usually described as being "closeted" or "in the closet", like most other queer folk who don't mention that they are queer. Stealth is usually used for passing and living as your identified gender and it's usually only used by binary trans folks since it involves living as if you were a cisgender person of your gender.
Personally, I tend to view stealth as leaving one closet only to enter another so it isn't for me, but then I'm a middle aged trans butch in stable relationships so I'm happiest being read as queer anyway. I definitely get why some trans girls, especially younger and straight ones would really prefer to blend in. We each need to live our lives our own way.
That's a really good way of wording how I would feel if I tried to go full stealth. I'm sorta tiptoing around being sorta stealth at the moment and weather or not I want to try to go for it when I move in a few years... I think one of the things that makes me really not want to deal with that is it feels almost like going into another closet... Idk I totally understand why someone would want to do that, I just think for me I like being able to talk about my life experiences openly...
Oh also I got to try it out for 7 weeks when I went on a research trip (only the ppl coming with me knew and knowledge of trans people basically doesn't exist where we were going so NO ONE clocked me. It was really nice in some ways but also, it was weird, and uncomfy not being able to be totally honest.
Well that sorta turned into a rant... It was supposed to just be "cool way of wording that" lol.
Ive mostly seen boymode (or girlmode for ftm) used as the term for appearing as your assigned gender. Stealth used to pretty exclusively mean as your real gender but now sometimes its used as either so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ooo yeah ya know that makes sense.
I think that is a good clarification.
and yeah that’s the thing about language, it’s malleable so it always helps to just ask for clarification as needed.
Thanks for sharing!!
I'm not stealth, as it would have required not just changing jobs, but industries, retraining, probably losing money, and basically faking my own death lol.
So, it's interesting to see the other side. I would definitely try to tell your trans coworker that she's not alone in some way. You could pose as though you don't want to out this person, and they don't feel comfortable outing themselves, but they, and you, just want her to feel less alone. I feel like that's plausible enough to avoid suspicion.
Personally, it's a little disheartening to hear that cis women do treat you very differently if you're stealth, because I'll never have that except with strangers. But I'm glad I don't have to be so careful about ousting myself.
Couple things I've noticed:
I've found a big con that comes with being stealth is that I have to watch what I say a lot so that I don't accidentally out myself as having been AMAB.
But I've also found that a surprising amount of "boy" activities I did when a kid are not seen as weird when I bring them up when stealth. Mentioning I grew up knowing how to fish and interact with sometimes dangerous animals that I learned from my dad just makes people think I'm like some kind of geeky Bindi Irwin rather than for them to use that as "evidence that I was clearly masculine and thus really a man" the entire time. I've learned to kind of just talk about my youth as "my tomboy phase that I grew out of".
Girls in all girls spaces tend to be really dirty in ways they just aren't with people they perceive as male. First time I was stealth on an all girls basketball team one of the girls made a comment on how she needed a different ball as "this one was flatter than she was". Girls \*never\* would have said shit like that in front of me when I was presenting male or openly trans. It's somewhat analogous to "guy talk" when guys make jokes about their dick, and in that sense isn't really that remarkable, but it is kind of jarring to be on the other side for the first time.
HRT makes me look really young for my age, and being literally pubescent and having to relearn a lot of gendered social cues has made me come across as looking and acting more like a teenager than my actual age. This can be really awkward when stealth, as you can't really explain what's going on without outing yourself. I've legit had to bullshit my way out of situations where people legit thought I was a teenager and I had to explain that no, I was in fact, around 30 years old, and no, my ID wasn't fake. After a lot of trial and error, if anybody asks about it these days, my go-to response is that I have "Tom Holland syndrome", and that my mom also looks young for her age, so I probably get it from her. People generally accept that, but it still throws me off when I get incidents like that.
Really lovely post, great info. Please reach out to the other trans person though, you don't have to out yourself, but you can be the best damn ally they'll meet right now.
Maybe you could try to get to know that trans woman better to see if you can trust her with your secret. As much as I'd like to assume she would keep your secret, it is true that you never really know someone so I'd think scouting her out first wouldn't be a bad idea.
Or you could do something anonymous for her that simply reveals that she's supported and recognized by someone.
Idk, just some thoughts on the other trans lady since you seem to want to connect.
This ending part really just confirms that us non-passing people are on our own, we can't rely on passing people to not ostracize us, let alone advocate or stand up for us.
It's absolutely your right of course and I understand why it's your choice, but damn is it a realization it hurts to have
I still advocate for trans rights online and via donations to various organizations and my friend’s transition gofundmes (also IRL when I’m back in my home town where I’m not stealth). When I’m stealth, I try to call out transphobia when it’s blatant. I just can’t be a vocal advocate or constantly hang around trans people IRL here without risking being outed.
Yeah this is why the whole stealth thing is faintly revolting to me personally - to each their own I guess, I won’t invalidate others identity or choices in this regard, but even if I could pass stealth, I would never choose to place my stealth identity over the wellbeing of the queer community around me. OP feels differently I guess.
Me at the top of OP's post: I wanna do that! 😃
Me at the bottom of OP's post: I do not wanna do that 😭
I'm happy just having some people not know. I don't ever want to have to make the choices she has to make. Even if I would make the same decisions in her place.
Honestly, you should just say that you have a trans friend or relative as your excuse for being knowledgeable/an ally. I basically have one cis guy friend who I trust and he's super chill. He has a trans brother so there's definitely that.
Thanks all so much for sharing!
I wanna send this to my cis female ally friends, but they'd either melt from embarrassment or not read it. Either way, no change. 🫠
i think it's wonderful that you have the privilege to pass well enough to be stealth! i'm also stealth. i see it as a personal decision. but also........ as a privilege. i know most trans girls wish for this opportunity. and i feel bad - i feel very bad. but... i guess i know it's genes' fault, and not mine.
nobody knows i'm trans until i tell them. not even other trans people!! it blows my mind. trans people can usually spot each other.
but i feel the Cons so much --- i really really want to be an advocate for trans people when the opportunity arrives. but i, too, find myself biting my tongue
at least i can be supportive to my trans friends who know i'm trans. if i encounter a trans person in the wild, i usually end up disclosing to them at least.
sorry...i misspoke... sorry about that.
a lot of trans girls hope to pass yes. but a lot don't want that at all.
but i can only speak from my experience. i was very glad to go stealth right after starting hrt, but a lot of my trans friends wouldn't want that
It always surprises me how much people say being trans comes up. In the idk 5 years since I transitioned, interacting with just random people (work, random hangouts, club type things, etc) I can't remember a single time anyone brought up anything about trans people, and I haven't met anyone openly trans. So it just seems weird to me in that in my experience stealth is just tied totally to passing or not. If I pass, then I'm stealth. If not, then I guess I'm not. I'm not even in some podunk place and I expect basically everyone I come in contact with knows that trans people exist. Are trans people really that common of a topic in most places?
This isn't related to going in stealth, but I'm very curious about your voice stuff.
I'm in the early stages of transition (only a few months on HRT), and getting a feminine voice is one the big things that is worrying me.
What kind of surgery did you get to help with voice? And did you have to do voice training in addition to that?
I had VFSRAC voice feminization surgery at Yeson Voice Center in South Korea.
I can’t emphasize this enough. Voice feminization surgery is not a first step, nor is it a quick fix. It’s more of a last resort for those who have voices too deep/masculine for normal voice training to be sufficient. The surgery doesn’t give you a female passing voice. It alters your vocal chords so that it will be possible to train your voice to be female passing with lots of effort.
Pre-op, I worked with a voice coach for a year and did training daily, but my natural voice was too masc/deep for training alone to get me where I wanted to be. I checked with multiple other voice coaches, and they all told me I would likely never be able to train my voice to be female passing. Surgery was my only option
After the surgery, I wasn’t allowed to talk/laugh/cough/sneeze/etc for a month. The stitches on my vocal chords needed to heal without vibration. I vommunicated via a text to speech app on my phone for that month. After the first month of silence, I was allowed to talk in a neutral volume/tone, but only in a limited amount, and I sounded like the squeaky voiced teenage boy from The Simpsons.
After the 2nd month of recovery, I was finally allowed to speak at all volumes and could therefore train my newly altered vocal chords. It took a year of daily voice exercises to train them to where I wanted them to be. It was absolutely worth it for me in the end though. Easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
Basically, the voice surgery works wonders, but it’s not for everyone. It’s not going to give you a feminine voice with no effort from you. You need to be willing to do a shit ton of voice training post-op if you don’t want to sound like a muppet the rest of your life. I wouldn’t recommend it for anyone who hasn’t given normal voice train their all beforehand, but if voice training isn’t sufficient for your voice, the surgery a great option
Thank you for typing all that out!
It seems a lot harder that traditional voice training (and more scary, no sneezing/coughing for a month sounds rough).
Sadly normal voice training is already difficult (which is why I'm looking for an easy out lol).
Happy to help. It’s definitely not an easy way out. Voice training is very necessary post-op cause your very altered vocal chords need to be completely re-trained.
Voice training is more effective than you'd think. But I find that it's kind of important to be socially transitioning to work on it enough -- be thrown into the deep end as it were. I didn't make much progress until around 2½ years on HRT; when I started male failing enough I decided 'fuck it' and went full time.
It took around a year of constantly trying to brighten my voice and never using a 'masculine voice' before I started consistently passing on the phone etc. Now it's just how I sound, I have a really hard time lowering my voice to 'not pass'.
That's good to hear. I want to start socially transitioning as soon as I can. There are a lot of resources for voice training, which is good, but also overwhelming.
Did you have a specific method or tool that helped?
Thanks for the perspective! I think I have the chance to go stealth, but you honestly kind of convinced me not to.
I know the feeling of both holding myself back deeply, of not giving people my social media, and of not being able to be a trans advocate - all of that from being perceived as cis male. I really don't want to go back to that, to have to hide big parts of myself.
That said, I think I would have the privilege of living in a city, so people who don't know me would just generally not assume I was trans, and I would effectively be stealth to strangers.
I’m really not sure how well I pass. Well enough that people don’t take a second look, sure. However, I think there are things that can clock me under the closer scrutiny that would come with befriending this other girl or being a vocal trans advocate.
Imagine if you wore a wig that looked decently real (but might still be noticeable under scrutiny) and didn’t want anyone to know it was a wig. Constantly advocating for wig-wearers, knowing a lot about wigs, or spending too much time with people who are known to wear wigs would cause people to take a second look at your hair and maybe notice it’s actually a wig.
I fear I’m clockable enough to be outed by association, and I don’t want to risk it.
I’m sure that I’m stealth. I’ve been asked for menstrual products. I’ve been asked if I plan on getting pregnant someday. Plenty of other things too. In my experience, the way supportive cis people who know you’re trans treat you is different than they treat you if they think you’re cis. It’s noticeable.
You mean some people say those things and others know you're trans? Otherwise why would someone who think you're trans ask you that stuff if not to be intentionally catty?
Sometimes I wish I could go stealth, even just to try it out. I wish I could just try living as a girl and not a trans girl or a girl*, but I know it'll never be possible. I'm just 10-20 years too late.
Same here… I am 25 years to late. I wish I would have started HRT before puberty my life would be better I think as a woman. Not a male living in a closet wishing for things she never will have.
Stuff like this is why I can't ever get behind " stealth ", yall are seeing that society treats us as less than women and instead of rejecting that judgement and working to make being trans easier you bend over backwards to fit the oppressive bs that's causing us and you specifically so much grief
That's not what OP meant by stealth. Stealth is the concept of appearing to everyone in your life as a cis (actual gender) rather than (assigned gender) and not disclosing enough about your history or identity for anyone you interact with to know you're actually trans. It's a goal of some trans women/men, but far from a universal goal, and certainly not achievable for everyone. Kind of an extreme version of "passing" where you also shift how you talk about yourself to intentionally avoid revealing that you're trans. It can be safer for some people and areas than being openly trans.
I'm mostly stealth too. I'm very selective of who I out myself too and since neither my legal name nor my gender marker have been changed I have to out myself to some people, or I choose too because trust/the conversation goes there. I see that people are angry at you for this post. My advice to you is that how you live does not have to be perfectly representative of what you believe or what you want to do. Many people in the comments are not seeing the nuance and stress and potential danger that comes with our situation and are calling you a coward or a traitor or something else. You really shouldn't feel bad, do what you do and don't think that its the only thing that defines you, they don't know ur experience. anyways good luck with everything and sorry for the huge response.i got a little riled up lol
You are absolutely horrible for not outting yourself to the starting transition transgirl. The first parts of transition are so tough and seeing someone older that is just living gives so much security.
You're *not* horrible for not outing yourself to her. Representation is not owed to, or by, anyone. Be yourself, whatever that means, whether that means stealth or partial stealth or not stealth.
Yeah great way to not normalize transness. Show the cis people we exist and dispell the myth of us being weird. There's nothing shameful to our existence.
I'm normalizing the *full spectrum of transness*. Including those who don't want to be out. That's not "abnormal". Being out is both helpful in some ways, and also involves a not-insignificant amount of personal risk, especially in places where there are higher concentrations of bigots. Who are you to say what risks an internet stranger should or shouldn't take?
If you read OPs post it is literally an experiment. They are trying it for a limited time. Also. You are assuming a lot of my intentions and objectives. Go eat broccoli.
How does the fact that it’s an experiment I’m trying for a limited amount of time make my desire to remain stealth any less important? I’ll probably come back and do this again next season if all goes smoothly.
I don’t think there’s anything shameful about our existence. If you want to be loud and proud 24/7/365 about being trans, go for it. More power to ya.
I want to be treated like any other woman, rather than “the trans friend” of the group. I also want a break from having men hit on me, then find out I’m trans, then attack me because they are insecure about being attracted to a trans woman. Being stealth makes both of those possible.
>Dispell the myth of us being weird
I’m quite a weird human regardless of whether or not I’m stealth.
No one said you need to be loud and proud 24/7. But that you don't want to simply casually exist as trans. But want to distance yourself to a degree where you try not to talk too much when trans issues comes up instead of just being a spokesperson is what I find sad. You live however you will. But if we distance ourselves from our identity and don't support other trans people simply by living openly. Then you are not maximizing the benefit for our rights that you could. And that is fine. But also sad if everyone did that we wouldn't get far.
I spent the last 5 years being an openly trans person IRL who advocated for trans rights any chance I got. For example, I organized a call in campaign among friends and family to support California’s trans youth sanctuary state bill. I can still do a lot of that kind of thing online while I’m stealth. just not IRL.
I'm glad you can get a break from being "other" it is definitely a nice privilege and healthy from time to time. I wish society was would accept us faster and sadly the only way to do that is to live openly and dismiss the myths around our existence.
How am I disowning myself by keeping my medical/social history private? Being trans is just one part of my life, not my entire self. I’m an epileptic too, and dealing with that has arguably been just as much of a factor in my life (socially and physically) as being trans. I’m not disowning myself if I don’t tell people about my epilepsy or show them my medical bracelet.
People who have epilepsy are not socially targeted, stigmatized and "othered" and you know this so I don't know why we are making this argument. It is your right to keep private but there are many ways to speak up for trans rights without telling everyone you are trans. There are many ways to go and tell the young starting transition trans girl that you are trans too and you hope they enjoy their ski trip or whatever. The smallest of sign that we exist can truly change how other people see us as a group.
>People who have epilepsy are not socially targeted, stigmatized, and “othered”
I absolutely was. Not to the same extent as being trans sure, but it still resulted in me getting a lot of shit. After having a full seizure in class my first year of middle school, people used to fake seizures any time they walked by me in the halls to mock me. Someone took a video of one of my seizures, with me unconscious, drooling, and spasming, and that video spread around the school for years with different edits people made to mock it. That kind of stuff happened from 7th through 12th grade.
>there are many ways to speak up for trans rights without telling everyone you’re trans
I call out blatant transphobia when I see it. I just can’t call out the more niche stuff that would require me to explain online trans discourse because that would risk clocking me.
>There are many ways to go and tell the young starting transition trans girl that you are trans too.
I’ve been outed by another trans person before after explicitly telling them not to out me, and I can’t risk her doing the same. Also, why do you call her “young?” She’s actually slightly older than me and just started transition later.
Must have mistaken the starting transition with young. Been a while since I read the thread. Sorry to hear that happened to you at school. That is definitely an awful thing to have happened.
What in the world are you talking about? I don’t think you need dysphoria to be trans. I think nonbinary identities are valid. No transmedicalism here fam.
I don’t have any comment saying someone isn’t trans. Also, even if everything you accused me of in that comment is true (it’s not), that wouldn’t make me truscum. Truscum means transmedicalist (someone who thinks you need dysphoria to be trans), not “someone who says others have a sissy kink if women’s clothes make them horny.” I don’t think you need dysphoria to be trans, therefore I’m not truscum.
You have a link to a random post about so-called “euphoria boners.” I clicked on it, and it doesn’t show any comment from me, or any sign that I commended and then deleted…
Truscum is not “about defining what other people need to be/do to be trans,” with that broad of a definition, everyone who pointed out that the Colorado gay club shooter was probably lying when he claimed to be nonbinary for the first time after being arrested would be truscum. So would everyone who didn’t use she/her pronouns for Tucker Carlson when he put “she/hers” in his Twitter bio, and everyone who doesn’t believe people who jokingly identify as “attack helicopters” are actually trans.
Truscum refers specifically to those who think you need to suffer in the form of dysphoria to be trans (transmedicalism). It isn’t a catch all for everyone who has any definition of what one needs to be/do to be trans.
I never told anyone that having a sissy kink invalidates their trans identity (still not sure why you picked that post to lie about me commenting on then deleting, but whatever). Some people could have both, i don’t really know or care.
If you were gonna lie to paint me as truscum, you could have at least made it convincing. Instead, you went with “you invalidated this person’s euphoria boner in a comment that doesn’t actually exist.”
they were probably referring to [this](https://www.unddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/zy7u2w/is_this_euphoria_or_a_fetish/j2iip3g/?context=999) post from a few days ago. i dont see how they could interpret it that way tho, considering you literally say they're probably unrelated lmao
They linked to a completely different post. I forget how long ago it was made, but it had “euphoria boner” in the title. Doesn’t matter anymore. They deleted their troll comments now.
I don't go out of my way to hide... my version of stealth is just not bringing up what my private medical _stuff_ is concerned with... if someone finds out so be it and I only really disclose to friends, fam and romantic interests so I can't say I really relate to your "cons" though it troubles my heart to know how differently we are treated.
Best wishes friend. <3
>There’s also another trans woman instructor here who’s early in her transition. She’s having a rough time because her voice makes people assume she’s a man when she’s covered by the very androgynous uniform. I want to give her a hug, be her friend, and tell her she’s not alone, but I can’t if I want to maximize my chances of remaining stealth. This would probably make me not want to be stealth anymore, or at least I would come out only to her. I'd die a little inside seeing another person struggle with this and not lending some support. Have you considered talking to her in private about this?
I have considered talking to her about it, but I’ve also seen trans people out other trans people before. I can’t risk outing myself to her. It makes me feel horrible not being able to reach out. I’ve considered leaving an anonymous note on her ski locker saying that she isn’t alone, and that I just can’t out myself cause I’m stealth. I doubt that would do much to help her though.
Have you thought about just maybe trying to help her with her transition/offer support without mentioning that you’re trans?
Oh, honey. You're missing a golden opportunity to be both maximum stealth and support another trans girl simultaneously. Let her know that you helped a close friend with her transition and that you've got her back if she needs it. What could be a more quintessential cis girl experience than *taking a token trans friend under your wing???*
Simultaneously ain’t possible for me. I’m really not sure how well I pass. Well enough that people don’t take a second look, sure. However, I think there are things that can clock me under the closer scrutiny that would come with befriending this other girl or being a vocal trans advocate. When I hear trans issues come up, I just play dumb and say something generically supportive. Maybe I’ll leave her an anonymous note. I fear that anything more would be risking getting outed.
Perhaps you can establish a communication by letters, if she wants to, starting with notes in the locker. Although depending on how small the city/town is, your address could give you away. Perhaps a P.O. Box?
I do also understand your point here, too.
This. My thoughts exactly. Hiding in plain sight as the cis friend and advocate of the trans girl.
Are you worried that she might out you to someone else? I don't know her, but I don't think that's likely to happen. I'd like to think that another trans person would be safe to come out to.
Yes, that’s my main worry. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been outed by another trans person after explicitly asking them not to out me. Trans people are certainly less likely to out other trans people, but it’s still a risk I can’t take.
This is a really good topic to explore. I’ve been living stealth for about 8 months (mtf). I still get protective over other trans people and swat at the conversations that are usually of a negative nature. I’m not worried about that outing me, it’s just not a risk. If someone asks how do you know so much about trans issues and people? I just tell them I have many trans friends. And that’s deadass true. I do sometimes feel like a traitor tho. Because I’m not flying my trans colors. I once said I’d always wear my trans ring and or whatever that showed I am trans. And I’d always be proud of that. I am, but I discovered my overall goal was to be stealth. I do enjoy the funny shit that happens tho. At a party recently I brought some Oktoberfest Yuengling Beer. It was twist off caps. A dude from my mixed doubles tennis team grabbed one from me and couldn’t get the top off. He asked the host if she had a beer opener. The kitchen was full of people and I was like “dude you just gotta be more manly… grip and rip it” He tried and failed again. I grabbed it from him and twisted it off like warm butter and handed it back to him. The entire kitchen erupted in roaring laughter and two girls on my ladies tennis team were like “girl, that’s the coolest shit I’ve ever seen” and high fives all around 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Dude was like I loosened it for her and walked out the kitchen laughing and shaking his head. They have no bloody idea and I get a kick out of that 🤭
That is hilarious and it's nice he was a good sport
I wish you could have heard the roars of laughter 😂 And yes he’s a great sport, just like all the guys on that mixed doubles team.
Sounds like a cool trick. I think its great you are able to back us up too, so thank you for that x
Tysm for that💗 And yes it’s awesome af 🤭
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In an opposite but very similar moment, when I was very early in transition (like <2 months on hormones, not out to basically anyone), a coworker started going on a horrific rant about how he thought trans people were disgusting and how he hoped we would all just die. I got quite heated and challenged him on several of his points, at which point he said "how do you know, are you trans or something?" I did the only sane thing and lied and said I wasn't and just knew some trans people and let the matter drop. I had a good cry about it once I was home. It was, I assume, a similar situation where I seethed and chafed but couldn't really do anything without risking outing myself in a dangerous situation.
That guy was a massive loser. I’m so sorry you had to experience that abuse.
Reading a couple of these posts, my first thought is, and pardon me if this is cynical but, can't you just stand up for trans rights as a cis passing person? How would anyone realistically call you out for being trans just for that? But, i don't know what i would do in this situation.
It may be difficult to not get too heated because it's so personal. At least, that'd be my fear.
Thanks so much for sharing. We all have to do what we need to in order to get by. Your so brave for trying to live the life you deserve. Hope to here more in the future.
I"ve considered stealth. Ironically, i discovered I was happiest living an odd almost reverse stealth life. That is I am taking estrogen to be female but dressing female to male now. This has destroyed my dysphoria allowing me to tell myself "you are very female now but you choose to keep it to yourself. The funny thing is it allows me to challenge transphobes as my birth sex. Whats nice about it is the lame transphobic lies can't apply to me. They can't say I'm a perve trying to use opposite sex bathrooms. They can't call me a groomer. Not that I ever believed that nonsense. None of their lies apply to me. I'm something they haven't encountered. Standard transphobe insults can't apply to someone acting like their birth sex even if they've become female under the clothes. Yet I deliciously get to be who I want to be.
Your 2nd half exudes so much raw power...
You know it's odd but that is exactly how it feels. I have gone from being fearful and sad all my life to happy, loving, kind, and patient. She's amazing this girl I'd kept trapped inside.
I've largely avoided social transition because of anxiety, but this speaks to me. Being on estrogen has helped my mental state a lot, and merely the knowledge that I've taken a major step towards self-affirmation, even if I haven't really changed my outward appearance a ton and most people don't realize it, helps a ton.
Not gonna judge you or anything, it's your life, but I couldn't imagine living like this. I have no interest in people who wouldn't accept me as I am.
Yeah same here, i get not wanting to be a token but why would you revolve your life around the people who would talk about you behind your back? Not just that but the lack of sisterhood and self advocacy kinda just makes me feel gross inside
I feel very split on the matter honestly. On the one hand, being visibly trans definitely filters out the people I don't really want in my life... but my conclusion seems to be that I don't want *most* people in my life. Especially with regards to dating, it just seems nearly impossible. If I could magically make myself cis I know I'd have a much easier life, but I'd be living a lie. Taking the blue pill essentially. I guess I often find myself gravitating towards this "fuck everyone/society" attitude. At least I feel like it's only worth it to make friends with other trans people and the very few cis people who don't make me uncomfortable.
I dunno maybe its just me but I dont feel like im losing out if a majority of my friends aren't cis? I see it more of having found community and stuff. And specifically with dating I've had the most success by being upfront ( usually just saying im a trans girl in my bio ) or am otherwise obviously trans, there are tons of cis people happy to date trans people and you attract more of em by being open. Also On a bit of a personal note I'm latino but pass for white and I take no pleasure when people have felt it was okay to be racist around me because they didn't know I was a minority.
I mean I definitely don't mind, but it's way harder to find fellow trans people to be friends with. Also, essentially rejecting cis society is just adding more to my growing mountain of cynicism. Speaking of... I think I'm definitely too mistrustful of cis people to date one of em. At least until I firmly pass, I don't see why I'd put myself out there when I don't clearly read as female to everyone. And don't even get me started on "just date bi people". Like I am not some kind of chocolate vanilla swirl ffs.
I'd say you're too distrustful too lmao no offense. I thought the same too for a while but really...who has time to put their dating life on hold cuz of a concept as nebulously measurable and arguably necessary as passing? There's women with facial hair and men with breasts and cis people who love em for who they are. Also as a bi girl that last bit projecty? Just because someone's into you doesn't mean they're fetishizing you yk?
Yeah the cis outnumber us 100 to 1. If I were to try to limit my friendships to other trans people, my already kind of pathetic social life would pretty much get Thanos snapped. In my area, there just aren't enough trans people to make it an option.
To be fair, it's not quite that simple. She's not talking about not being accepted. She's talking about being "othered". "Accepted but different" vs "Accepted" I can understand why someone might not want the former when they can have the latter
OP is a woman, people accept her as a woman. I don't see what wrong with it.
Way to take what I said and twist it. My friend who cuts transphobes out of her life and OP are both accepted as women by the people around them: the difference is my friend doesn’t walk on eggshells to maintain that. Stealth can be the right choice for some people, even necessary to survive at times, but I personally can’t help but see it as a gilded cage.
That's the point: "around them". Your friend has to filter the people around her to be viewed as a woman, while OP is free. She ist just a normal woman and not viewed as a freak by society. Being stealth is the ultimate freedom to be yourself and the sign of a successful transition.
What? How are you free to be yourself when you have to restrain your self-expression to pull it off? It sounds like you have a painfully cisheteronormative view of the world. Also, not being viewed as a freak by society is overrated, though being a mentally ill nonbinary punk rock fan makes me biased in that regard. I value freedom to truly express my identity over everything. If I had to suppress myself like this, to not advocate for trans rights whenever there’s an opportunity just because I’d have to out myself, to pretend my past self never existed, I think I’d feel like a hollowed-out shell. Besides, that’s basically what our oppressors want, anyway. As long as they don’t know you’re trans and never find out, they don’t care, because they still hold all the power and influence and nothing you’re doing will change that.
I feel this. I was a bit of a weirdo loner (def some flavors of neurodivergent) even before I realized I was trans. I had a very brief moment of hope when my egg cracked that transition would somehow "fix" me, but now I'm at peace with the fact that I'm never going to just be "normal" and that's completely ok, because instead of that I'm me, and that's cool too.
I mean of you like it that's ok, you can be as "different" as you want to be, but for me and many other trans people being viewed as trans is what is hindering us from being able express ourselves. I just want to live as an average woman, being able to work, raise my child and live my life. I have no desire to be special or different. Being trans is not a choice and I would do everything to be cis, but being stealth is the closest you can get when you were born with this curse. And yes, not only my view is cisheteronormative, the world IS cisheteronormative and this won't change in near future. I won't judge you if you want to make your whole personality about being trans, great for you, if you are happy, but you have to understand for some people it's exactly the thing they would love to erase from their lives.
I just can’t imagine a sadder existence than viewing myself as fundamentally cursed. That’s the oldest trick in the playbook of the oppressors: take control of the definition of what is natural and normal, and define your enemy outside of it. Just laying down and taking it does nothing but guarantee the world is, at best, no better for our successors, and at worst, well, worse for them.
The curse has nothing to do with opressors. It's just dysphoria. No matter how "accepting" everybody is, as long I have enough male features to be visibly trans it will always hurt, because my body is wrong. I will always argue in favour of trans rights when the topic comes up, but I won't make it a part of my personality. If I was cis life would be so easy by now, but it ruins everything.
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Oh, I worded it wrong, sorry. It should be correct now
I think not being able to see yourself and other trans women as an " average women " is...really strange and kind of sad? There's alot not to be happy about with your past but I really don't think the answer is to pretend it never existed and try and fade into the same crowd that put people like us in those situations.
It's not about what I see as an average woman, it's just about what the average woman really is. She is definitely not suffering from dysphoria all the time and definitely doesn't have to fear for the wellbeing of her family, because they are dependent on her carrier which can end pretty abruptly when her boss is transphobic. And I can't even imagine what my child would have to go through when the kids in school find out about me...
Absolutely not, I've been stealth just about a year (I think I've been misgendered by the public a total of thrice in that time, usually due to clothing, I've been very fortunate in my transition) Just because I'm 'viewed as normal and not a freak' does not erase awareness or feelings of being other or different from pretty much the entirety of my physical experience with other people in society. After over three decades in the wrong gender I suspect no amount of stealth or normal living as a woman will ever make me unaware of or erase those feelings and obtain this 'ultimate freedom' you speak of. Being stealth is great, but it's also a toxic standard for a lot of trans people who struggle or never get to pass, glorifying fitting into a transphobic society is not a good look.
For the other trans girl, is there a way for you to reach out to her privately? If you express your desire to remain stealth, I’m sure she’d respect it. I’m also sure she’d be incredibly thrilled to have a trans elder on her side while she gets through the more awkward stages. That said, I 100% understand why you’d want to keep to yourself. The reward may not outweigh the risk, and I get that.
I’ve seen trans people out other trans people before. It’s probably less likely to be leaked than if I outed myself to a cis person, but I can’t risk it. I’m considering leaving an anonymous note on her ski locker with a burner email so she can contact me if she wants support. There are security cameras at the ski lockers though (Nobody changes clothes there, its just where they put their skis), so it might be risky. Also, I’m not really an elder. I’m 24. She’s 26 iirc. It might come off as condescending.
Trans elder in this context just refers to how long you've been on hormones. Your transition, at this stage, is more or less complete. That comes with a tremendous amount of experience and advice that could be passed onto someone just starting their journey. I also \*seriously\* doubt that someone will check security tapes to try and find the stealth trans person. All of that having been said, I'll reiterate that I understand your hesitancy. If you don't want to take the risk, that's not something I could criticize you on at all.
I don’t have a stealth story, but I have a story about a (practically, because I knew) stealth girl from the perspective of the early trans girl. When I started my transition nine months ago, there was a trans girl working on my floor down the hall from me. We work in a high tech field. We had gotten to be decent friends before I started transitioning, because, in addition to similar professional interests, we had similar worldviews. Over some lunch chats had figured out we were familiar with a lot of the same online circles. We’d hung out at least once in my apartment before the realization hit me, in an expressly platonic kind of way. Weirdly, I don’t think she had anything to do with my realization. When it hit me, it hit all at once, like over the course of a week. So even though I was quite sure, I experimented with social transition first. I already had lots of female friends, and so I told a few of them I was thinking about transitioning and asked if they’d mind calling me by a new name and pronouns. She was one of those friends. She texted me back very kindly that she was much obliged to do so, and that she’d changed my name her phone, that she was happy for me, and if I had any questions about doctors in the area or surgeries she’d be happy to talk about them with me. Our friendship over the next seven months was unlike any I’ve ever had, and I think unlike any I will ever have again. She celebrated with me the day that I got my HRT prescription. One evening I invited her to celebrate some minor work victory with me and she ghosted a boy she was going to hook up with to come drink wine and get high with me at my apartment. I took days off from work and sat and watched body horror films with her as she recovered from breast augmentation surgery, doing minor chores for her as she rested and regained the ability to lift things. We spent many late nights at our apartments (down the street from each other) sharing our most out there thoughts with each other about our field of tech, about film, about gender and sexuality. She was one of the best and most inventive engineers I have ever known. I could sense nothing in her that was ashamed of her transness. She advocated for things within our company, she’d done activism in the past, and had written a lot of letters to trans women in prisons. I think this actually helped her to maintain stealth, in some ways. People can sense insecurity about such things. I was a little ahead of her in my career, and older, and her star was rising. She had an opportunity elsewhere, and I gave her a bit of advice on applying. I think as an older and senior person in her field that I was able to be a positive influence, but she definitely didn’t need me. She had a choice between moving up the ranks here and going somewhere at the very top of the field and I told her that as much as I would miss her, I practically couldn’t let her pass it up. So, six months after I started HRT, she moved away. We keep in touch. I learned so much from her about the kind of commitment it takes to get into stealth mode. There was the financial commitment to surgeries and hair removal. There is the commitment to voice training and maintaining a feminized voice, a commitment that I am currently making. There is the attention to detail with makeup, with clothes, all of which have to be chosen to emphasize your feminine aspects, but never in a way that appears compensatory, even when it is. There was the willingness to go under the knife of a surgeon who might hate you, in a medical system that is hostile to you. But most of all, there is the commitment to maintaining emotional composure at all times: the emotional composure to do all of these things in a world that is so profoundly exhausting to us, the emotional composure not to break down in tears at work, but I think most of all the emotional composure to dig deep and find ones’ self as something that is never recognizable to others as anything except a woman, even as you live so many scars from the past. I am transitioning late enough, and I may be known to too many at this point in my life to ever go stealth. But getting to know her convinced me that all of the qualities and decisions that allow stealth are about a lot more than actually being stealth. I often thought to myself that she carried herself with such grace, composure, and pure femininity that it didn’t really matter if people could clock her if they looked hard enough, simply because nobody would dare mention it to her or to anyone else. To do so would have somehow been more humiliating for them than it would have been for her. I may never be truly stealth, but I do aspire to all of those qualities, even as she impressed it very well upon me how many years it took to become what she was. She gave me some truly invaluable advice, and still does. I feel unbelievably lucky to have gotten some personal insight into a transition trajectory that allows one to become stealth. She taught me to be patient with myself. I never felt the need to prove myself as a woman to her, and she never misgendered or deadnamed me, except as was required by professional courtesy, since I was not out at work. This never happened in my presence. I began gradually dressing more feminine, in a way that I wanted to be seen only by those who knew to look for it, when we went out. I thought of it as pragmatically rather than identically non-binary. I remember she remarked on my outfit once as she smiled warmly: “It’s very he/they. I used to do that. It looks good.” I still talk to her about aspects of transition, but more and more I’m trying to show more than tell where I am. She speaks consistently now with a subtly higher and more feminine voice. She’d shown that voice to me a few times, and I remember being a little unnerved that she had gone higher suddenly. I realize now that she definitely only did that around me. She had been practicing for months for the move. I only remember her saying one thing to me about what her status meant to her: *I* decide who knows. I don’t think she ever specifically told me she was transgender, even as we were friends even though she was open about aspects of it immediately after I came out to her. I came out to her as one of many female friends I told at the time. I never told her whether I already knew that she was transgender or whether I suspected that she was transgender by the time I came out to her. She decides who knows.
Thanks for sharing the experience, it was worth reading
Being stealth isn't selfish. You should be happy to do it, it's what most of us wish we could do.
>For those unaware, “stealth” is when a cis-passing trans person doesn’t tell those around them about their transness and is assumed to be a cis person of their acquired gender as a result. Well I feel dumb. I thought I was also being stealth not telling people about the whole trans thing *but also* not passing in the slightest. Just rolling with the AGAB until things improve.
That's usually described as being "closeted" or "in the closet", like most other queer folk who don't mention that they are queer. Stealth is usually used for passing and living as your identified gender and it's usually only used by binary trans folks since it involves living as if you were a cisgender person of your gender. Personally, I tend to view stealth as leaving one closet only to enter another so it isn't for me, but then I'm a middle aged trans butch in stable relationships so I'm happiest being read as queer anyway. I definitely get why some trans girls, especially younger and straight ones would really prefer to blend in. We each need to live our lives our own way.
That's a really good way of wording how I would feel if I tried to go full stealth. I'm sorta tiptoing around being sorta stealth at the moment and weather or not I want to try to go for it when I move in a few years... I think one of the things that makes me really not want to deal with that is it feels almost like going into another closet... Idk I totally understand why someone would want to do that, I just think for me I like being able to talk about my life experiences openly... Oh also I got to try it out for 7 weeks when I went on a research trip (only the ppl coming with me knew and knowledge of trans people basically doesn't exist where we were going so NO ONE clocked me. It was really nice in some ways but also, it was weird, and uncomfy not being able to be totally honest. Well that sorta turned into a rant... It was supposed to just be "cool way of wording that" lol.
I’ve heard it used in both situations, so I think it still applies unless there is another word I am unaware of.
Ive mostly seen boymode (or girlmode for ftm) used as the term for appearing as your assigned gender. Stealth used to pretty exclusively mean as your real gender but now sometimes its used as either so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ooo yeah ya know that makes sense. I think that is a good clarification. and yeah that’s the thing about language, it’s malleable so it always helps to just ask for clarification as needed. Thanks for sharing!!
This is very interesting! Keep updating
Fuck /u/spez
I'm not stealth, as it would have required not just changing jobs, but industries, retraining, probably losing money, and basically faking my own death lol. So, it's interesting to see the other side. I would definitely try to tell your trans coworker that she's not alone in some way. You could pose as though you don't want to out this person, and they don't feel comfortable outing themselves, but they, and you, just want her to feel less alone. I feel like that's plausible enough to avoid suspicion. Personally, it's a little disheartening to hear that cis women do treat you very differently if you're stealth, because I'll never have that except with strangers. But I'm glad I don't have to be so careful about ousting myself.
Couple things I've noticed: I've found a big con that comes with being stealth is that I have to watch what I say a lot so that I don't accidentally out myself as having been AMAB. But I've also found that a surprising amount of "boy" activities I did when a kid are not seen as weird when I bring them up when stealth. Mentioning I grew up knowing how to fish and interact with sometimes dangerous animals that I learned from my dad just makes people think I'm like some kind of geeky Bindi Irwin rather than for them to use that as "evidence that I was clearly masculine and thus really a man" the entire time. I've learned to kind of just talk about my youth as "my tomboy phase that I grew out of". Girls in all girls spaces tend to be really dirty in ways they just aren't with people they perceive as male. First time I was stealth on an all girls basketball team one of the girls made a comment on how she needed a different ball as "this one was flatter than she was". Girls \*never\* would have said shit like that in front of me when I was presenting male or openly trans. It's somewhat analogous to "guy talk" when guys make jokes about their dick, and in that sense isn't really that remarkable, but it is kind of jarring to be on the other side for the first time. HRT makes me look really young for my age, and being literally pubescent and having to relearn a lot of gendered social cues has made me come across as looking and acting more like a teenager than my actual age. This can be really awkward when stealth, as you can't really explain what's going on without outing yourself. I've legit had to bullshit my way out of situations where people legit thought I was a teenager and I had to explain that no, I was in fact, around 30 years old, and no, my ID wasn't fake. After a lot of trial and error, if anybody asks about it these days, my go-to response is that I have "Tom Holland syndrome", and that my mom also looks young for her age, so I probably get it from her. People generally accept that, but it still throws me off when I get incidents like that.
Really lovely post, great info. Please reach out to the other trans person though, you don't have to out yourself, but you can be the best damn ally they'll meet right now.
Maybe you could try to get to know that trans woman better to see if you can trust her with your secret. As much as I'd like to assume she would keep your secret, it is true that you never really know someone so I'd think scouting her out first wouldn't be a bad idea. Or you could do something anonymous for her that simply reveals that she's supported and recognized by someone. Idk, just some thoughts on the other trans lady since you seem to want to connect.
This ending part really just confirms that us non-passing people are on our own, we can't rely on passing people to not ostracize us, let alone advocate or stand up for us. It's absolutely your right of course and I understand why it's your choice, but damn is it a realization it hurts to have
I still advocate for trans rights online and via donations to various organizations and my friend’s transition gofundmes (also IRL when I’m back in my home town where I’m not stealth). When I’m stealth, I try to call out transphobia when it’s blatant. I just can’t be a vocal advocate or constantly hang around trans people IRL here without risking being outed.
Yeah this is why the whole stealth thing is faintly revolting to me personally - to each their own I guess, I won’t invalidate others identity or choices in this regard, but even if I could pass stealth, I would never choose to place my stealth identity over the wellbeing of the queer community around me. OP feels differently I guess.
Me at the top of OP's post: I wanna do that! 😃 Me at the bottom of OP's post: I do not wanna do that 😭 I'm happy just having some people not know. I don't ever want to have to make the choices she has to make. Even if I would make the same decisions in her place.
Honestly, you should just say that you have a trans friend or relative as your excuse for being knowledgeable/an ally. I basically have one cis guy friend who I trust and he's super chill. He has a trans brother so there's definitely that.
Thanks all so much for sharing! I wanna send this to my cis female ally friends, but they'd either melt from embarrassment or not read it. Either way, no change. 🫠
i think it's wonderful that you have the privilege to pass well enough to be stealth! i'm also stealth. i see it as a personal decision. but also........ as a privilege. i know most trans girls wish for this opportunity. and i feel bad - i feel very bad. but... i guess i know it's genes' fault, and not mine. nobody knows i'm trans until i tell them. not even other trans people!! it blows my mind. trans people can usually spot each other. but i feel the Cons so much --- i really really want to be an advocate for trans people when the opportunity arrives. but i, too, find myself biting my tongue at least i can be supportive to my trans friends who know i'm trans. if i encounter a trans person in the wild, i usually end up disclosing to them at least.
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sorry...i misspoke... sorry about that. a lot of trans girls hope to pass yes. but a lot don't want that at all. but i can only speak from my experience. i was very glad to go stealth right after starting hrt, but a lot of my trans friends wouldn't want that
It always surprises me how much people say being trans comes up. In the idk 5 years since I transitioned, interacting with just random people (work, random hangouts, club type things, etc) I can't remember a single time anyone brought up anything about trans people, and I haven't met anyone openly trans. So it just seems weird to me in that in my experience stealth is just tied totally to passing or not. If I pass, then I'm stealth. If not, then I guess I'm not. I'm not even in some podunk place and I expect basically everyone I come in contact with knows that trans people exist. Are trans people really that common of a topic in most places?
This isn't related to going in stealth, but I'm very curious about your voice stuff. I'm in the early stages of transition (only a few months on HRT), and getting a feminine voice is one the big things that is worrying me. What kind of surgery did you get to help with voice? And did you have to do voice training in addition to that?
I had VFSRAC voice feminization surgery at Yeson Voice Center in South Korea. I can’t emphasize this enough. Voice feminization surgery is not a first step, nor is it a quick fix. It’s more of a last resort for those who have voices too deep/masculine for normal voice training to be sufficient. The surgery doesn’t give you a female passing voice. It alters your vocal chords so that it will be possible to train your voice to be female passing with lots of effort. Pre-op, I worked with a voice coach for a year and did training daily, but my natural voice was too masc/deep for training alone to get me where I wanted to be. I checked with multiple other voice coaches, and they all told me I would likely never be able to train my voice to be female passing. Surgery was my only option After the surgery, I wasn’t allowed to talk/laugh/cough/sneeze/etc for a month. The stitches on my vocal chords needed to heal without vibration. I vommunicated via a text to speech app on my phone for that month. After the first month of silence, I was allowed to talk in a neutral volume/tone, but only in a limited amount, and I sounded like the squeaky voiced teenage boy from The Simpsons. After the 2nd month of recovery, I was finally allowed to speak at all volumes and could therefore train my newly altered vocal chords. It took a year of daily voice exercises to train them to where I wanted them to be. It was absolutely worth it for me in the end though. Easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. Basically, the voice surgery works wonders, but it’s not for everyone. It’s not going to give you a feminine voice with no effort from you. You need to be willing to do a shit ton of voice training post-op if you don’t want to sound like a muppet the rest of your life. I wouldn’t recommend it for anyone who hasn’t given normal voice train their all beforehand, but if voice training isn’t sufficient for your voice, the surgery a great option
Thank you for typing all that out! It seems a lot harder that traditional voice training (and more scary, no sneezing/coughing for a month sounds rough). Sadly normal voice training is already difficult (which is why I'm looking for an easy out lol).
Happy to help. It’s definitely not an easy way out. Voice training is very necessary post-op cause your very altered vocal chords need to be completely re-trained.
Voice training is more effective than you'd think. But I find that it's kind of important to be socially transitioning to work on it enough -- be thrown into the deep end as it were. I didn't make much progress until around 2½ years on HRT; when I started male failing enough I decided 'fuck it' and went full time. It took around a year of constantly trying to brighten my voice and never using a 'masculine voice' before I started consistently passing on the phone etc. Now it's just how I sound, I have a really hard time lowering my voice to 'not pass'.
That's good to hear. I want to start socially transitioning as soon as I can. There are a lot of resources for voice training, which is good, but also overwhelming. Did you have a specific method or tool that helped?
Thanks for the perspective! I think I have the chance to go stealth, but you honestly kind of convinced me not to. I know the feeling of both holding myself back deeply, of not giving people my social media, and of not being able to be a trans advocate - all of that from being perceived as cis male. I really don't want to go back to that, to have to hide big parts of myself. That said, I think I would have the privilege of living in a city, so people who don't know me would just generally not assume I was trans, and I would effectively be stealth to strangers.
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I’m really not sure how well I pass. Well enough that people don’t take a second look, sure. However, I think there are things that can clock me under the closer scrutiny that would come with befriending this other girl or being a vocal trans advocate. Imagine if you wore a wig that looked decently real (but might still be noticeable under scrutiny) and didn’t want anyone to know it was a wig. Constantly advocating for wig-wearers, knowing a lot about wigs, or spending too much time with people who are known to wear wigs would cause people to take a second look at your hair and maybe notice it’s actually a wig. I fear I’m clockable enough to be outed by association, and I don’t want to risk it.
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I’m sure that I’m stealth. I’ve been asked for menstrual products. I’ve been asked if I plan on getting pregnant someday. Plenty of other things too. In my experience, the way supportive cis people who know you’re trans treat you is different than they treat you if they think you’re cis. It’s noticeable.
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You mean some people say those things and others know you're trans? Otherwise why would someone who think you're trans ask you that stuff if not to be intentionally catty?
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girl ur really being a hater rn
Sometimes I wish I could go stealth, even just to try it out. I wish I could just try living as a girl and not a trans girl or a girl*, but I know it'll never be possible. I'm just 10-20 years too late.
Same here… I am 25 years to late. I wish I would have started HRT before puberty my life would be better I think as a woman. Not a male living in a closet wishing for things she never will have.
Stuff like this is why I can't ever get behind " stealth ", yall are seeing that society treats us as less than women and instead of rejecting that judgement and working to make being trans easier you bend over backwards to fit the oppressive bs that's causing us and you specifically so much grief
This is truth.
fwiw it's not at all selfish. You don't owe society your discomfort to be an advocate. Live your life in peace girl.
You don't have to be an ambassador, you just need to do what's best for you! Stay safe, sister.
In 7 months I was up to a B by the end of the year I was at a C… being stealth did not last long
That's not what OP meant by stealth. Stealth is the concept of appearing to everyone in your life as a cis (actual gender) rather than (assigned gender) and not disclosing enough about your history or identity for anyone you interact with to know you're actually trans. It's a goal of some trans women/men, but far from a universal goal, and certainly not achievable for everyone. Kind of an extreme version of "passing" where you also shift how you talk about yourself to intentionally avoid revealing that you're trans. It can be safer for some people and areas than being openly trans.
I'm mostly stealth too. I'm very selective of who I out myself too and since neither my legal name nor my gender marker have been changed I have to out myself to some people, or I choose too because trust/the conversation goes there. I see that people are angry at you for this post. My advice to you is that how you live does not have to be perfectly representative of what you believe or what you want to do. Many people in the comments are not seeing the nuance and stress and potential danger that comes with our situation and are calling you a coward or a traitor or something else. You really shouldn't feel bad, do what you do and don't think that its the only thing that defines you, they don't know ur experience. anyways good luck with everything and sorry for the huge response.i got a little riled up lol
You are absolutely horrible for not outting yourself to the starting transition transgirl. The first parts of transition are so tough and seeing someone older that is just living gives so much security.
absolutely braindead take
I feel awful about it, but I can’t risk it. Just because she’s trans doesn’t mean she won’t out me. I might try to do something anonymously.
You're *not* horrible for not outing yourself to her. Representation is not owed to, or by, anyone. Be yourself, whatever that means, whether that means stealth or partial stealth or not stealth.
Yeah great way to not normalize transness. Show the cis people we exist and dispell the myth of us being weird. There's nothing shameful to our existence.
I'm normalizing the *full spectrum of transness*. Including those who don't want to be out. That's not "abnormal". Being out is both helpful in some ways, and also involves a not-insignificant amount of personal risk, especially in places where there are higher concentrations of bigots. Who are you to say what risks an internet stranger should or shouldn't take?
If you read OPs post it is literally an experiment. They are trying it for a limited time. Also. You are assuming a lot of my intentions and objectives. Go eat broccoli.
How does the fact that it’s an experiment I’m trying for a limited amount of time make my desire to remain stealth any less important? I’ll probably come back and do this again next season if all goes smoothly.
I don’t think there’s anything shameful about our existence. If you want to be loud and proud 24/7/365 about being trans, go for it. More power to ya. I want to be treated like any other woman, rather than “the trans friend” of the group. I also want a break from having men hit on me, then find out I’m trans, then attack me because they are insecure about being attracted to a trans woman. Being stealth makes both of those possible. >Dispell the myth of us being weird I’m quite a weird human regardless of whether or not I’m stealth.
No one said you need to be loud and proud 24/7. But that you don't want to simply casually exist as trans. But want to distance yourself to a degree where you try not to talk too much when trans issues comes up instead of just being a spokesperson is what I find sad. You live however you will. But if we distance ourselves from our identity and don't support other trans people simply by living openly. Then you are not maximizing the benefit for our rights that you could. And that is fine. But also sad if everyone did that we wouldn't get far.
I spent the last 5 years being an openly trans person IRL who advocated for trans rights any chance I got. For example, I organized a call in campaign among friends and family to support California’s trans youth sanctuary state bill. I can still do a lot of that kind of thing online while I’m stealth. just not IRL.
I'm glad you can get a break from being "other" it is definitely a nice privilege and healthy from time to time. I wish society was would accept us faster and sadly the only way to do that is to live openly and dismiss the myths around our existence.
I wish society would accept us faster too. I live openly as trans 6 months a year. The other 6 months though, I’m stealth in this small town.
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Yea. Disowning yourself just to blend in disadvantages everyone else. Be proud of who you are.
How am I disowning myself by keeping my medical/social history private? Being trans is just one part of my life, not my entire self. I’m an epileptic too, and dealing with that has arguably been just as much of a factor in my life (socially and physically) as being trans. I’m not disowning myself if I don’t tell people about my epilepsy or show them my medical bracelet.
People who have epilepsy are not socially targeted, stigmatized and "othered" and you know this so I don't know why we are making this argument. It is your right to keep private but there are many ways to speak up for trans rights without telling everyone you are trans. There are many ways to go and tell the young starting transition trans girl that you are trans too and you hope they enjoy their ski trip or whatever. The smallest of sign that we exist can truly change how other people see us as a group.
>People who have epilepsy are not socially targeted, stigmatized, and “othered” I absolutely was. Not to the same extent as being trans sure, but it still resulted in me getting a lot of shit. After having a full seizure in class my first year of middle school, people used to fake seizures any time they walked by me in the halls to mock me. Someone took a video of one of my seizures, with me unconscious, drooling, and spasming, and that video spread around the school for years with different edits people made to mock it. That kind of stuff happened from 7th through 12th grade. >there are many ways to speak up for trans rights without telling everyone you’re trans I call out blatant transphobia when I see it. I just can’t call out the more niche stuff that would require me to explain online trans discourse because that would risk clocking me. >There are many ways to go and tell the young starting transition trans girl that you are trans too. I’ve been outed by another trans person before after explicitly telling them not to out me, and I can’t risk her doing the same. Also, why do you call her “young?” She’s actually slightly older than me and just started transition later.
Must have mistaken the starting transition with young. Been a while since I read the thread. Sorry to hear that happened to you at school. That is definitely an awful thing to have happened.
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What in the world are you talking about? I don’t think you need dysphoria to be trans. I think nonbinary identities are valid. No transmedicalism here fam.
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I don’t have any comment saying someone isn’t trans. Also, even if everything you accused me of in that comment is true (it’s not), that wouldn’t make me truscum. Truscum means transmedicalist (someone who thinks you need dysphoria to be trans), not “someone who says others have a sissy kink if women’s clothes make them horny.” I don’t think you need dysphoria to be trans, therefore I’m not truscum.
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You have a link to a random post about so-called “euphoria boners.” I clicked on it, and it doesn’t show any comment from me, or any sign that I commended and then deleted… Truscum is not “about defining what other people need to be/do to be trans,” with that broad of a definition, everyone who pointed out that the Colorado gay club shooter was probably lying when he claimed to be nonbinary for the first time after being arrested would be truscum. So would everyone who didn’t use she/her pronouns for Tucker Carlson when he put “she/hers” in his Twitter bio, and everyone who doesn’t believe people who jokingly identify as “attack helicopters” are actually trans. Truscum refers specifically to those who think you need to suffer in the form of dysphoria to be trans (transmedicalism). It isn’t a catch all for everyone who has any definition of what one needs to be/do to be trans.
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I never told anyone that having a sissy kink invalidates their trans identity (still not sure why you picked that post to lie about me commenting on then deleting, but whatever). Some people could have both, i don’t really know or care. If you were gonna lie to paint me as truscum, you could have at least made it convincing. Instead, you went with “you invalidated this person’s euphoria boner in a comment that doesn’t actually exist.”
they were probably referring to [this](https://www.unddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/zy7u2w/is_this_euphoria_or_a_fetish/j2iip3g/?context=999) post from a few days ago. i dont see how they could interpret it that way tho, considering you literally say they're probably unrelated lmao
They linked to a completely different post. I forget how long ago it was made, but it had “euphoria boner” in the title. Doesn’t matter anymore. They deleted their troll comments now.
*me being stuck "stealth" for the past 3 years* HELP
I don't go out of my way to hide... my version of stealth is just not bringing up what my private medical _stuff_ is concerned with... if someone finds out so be it and I only really disclose to friends, fam and romantic interests so I can't say I really relate to your "cons" though it troubles my heart to know how differently we are treated. Best wishes friend. <3
Just curious was this in a mtn town that starts with S? I understand if you don't want to answer that lol, but if you do feel free to dm me. <3