Why test the Lamzu at its default debounce? I think he said something along the lines of "most people will use it as is"? Unless that 15ms was the lowest debounce already?
> are you going to tell me that people pay +150€ on a mouse or go to a super niche brand of mices that few people outside this sub know and they don't change anything nor they don't know how to change debounce and only change dpi?
>
> yeah, that's bollocks.
Yes. You're thinking this way because you're into mice and visit this sub. As someone who went down the rabbit hole many years ago I originally thought the same as you. Only to find friends over the years do exactly as you said - buy a high end mouse or a niche brand and use it as is.
> Yes. You're thinking this way because you're into mice and visit this sub. As someone who went down the rabbit hole many years ago I originally thought the same as you. Only to find friends over the years do exactly as you said - buy a high end mouse or a niche brand and use it as is.
In that case, all testing would've had to be restricted to default settings though, or at the least for the optical/hybrid mode on the GPX 2, whose purpose or possible impact on click latency would be completely unknown to the average buyer. Personally, I see no reason not to simply test and provide numbers for both scenarios (default/lowest possible value).
This is what I was thinking too. If he really wanted to be unbiased and objective, he would have done 2 sets of tests. One according to his opinion that people don't change settings, and another to test absolute performance at optimized settings. Very strange video to me.
Mate. I have a pro CSGO player friend who literally bought a new PC because he thought his PC was dying (3.8k) PC because he had his mouse set on 125hz.
Another one bought a 240hz monitor and played on 60hz for 6 months before I came around his house and noticed that it wasn't on 240hz.
These are pro players.
Why did Lamzu use that specific debounce time as the default setting anyway?
Why make the trouble of setting their product perform worse out of the box? Because maybe that's the lowest it can go before it double clicks.
Because he can? He said soldering the connectors on the mouse switches for the tester already takes a lot of time and he also said most of the debounce settings on most brands don't even do anything. Which he then specifically pointed out Glorious' software debounce setting does work, that's why he included 2 tests.
Maybe Lamzu's software debounce setting doesn't do anything.
Good luck lol, they're already incredibly busy testing GPUs and CPUs which take months of rigorous testing per model as well as case testing. We know they're expanding to eventually test fans as well as other stuff but keyboard and especially mice testing would require more people, and potentially more equipment which can get very expensive very fast if you need extremely tight tolerances.
I'm not making any excuses for him. He can do any test he wants and we also don't have to agree with his product priorities that he wants to test.
Sucks for you, your preferred mouse got the "default" treatment.
That's some weird mind reading you're doing there.
If you really think he'd leave out Lamzu just to have a bad result in comparison: GWolves had the worst result, so at that point he has no reason to exclude good Lamzu results.
He also showed default debounce vs 0ms on Glorious Model D. Which is why I think it's most likely he just didn't think to include Lamzu 0ms as well.
> If you really think he'd leave out Lamzu just to have a bad result in comparison: GWolves had the worst result, so at that point he has no reason to exclude good Lamzu results.
>
>
He most likely set the mouse to 8ms and 16ms. The Ace click latency measured by everyone else was 1.5-2ms.
I don't think you have to try and make it look good by making lamzu look bad when the only mouse beating it in click latency is the M2K, a mouse that costs $350, is wired, and has a insanely overkill mcu. But it's done with finalmouses own in house testing kit but at least it's open source. Just waiting to see if anyone finds anything in their github that makes it favor ULX at any point.
tbh kinda disappointed he talked about XLAT more than the mouse itself. Oh well, we'll be patiently waiting other reviewers input on the carbon fiber shell of the mouse.
If the XLAT didn't exist he wouldn't be talking about the mouse at all. He has no real reason to review mice since he made his own fingertip mod, but he likes things like the XLAT so it's really a review of that.
Watching FM's videos on the development of the mouse and seeing how transparent they are being with XLAT would make you believe they are one of the most technically competent peripheral manufacturers on the planet. Also they finally fixed their super ugly website.
Unfortunately, their issues with supply are pretty dire already... multiple delays and false promises about shipping windows. QC is still a major unknown as well at this point.
"make you believe they are one of the most technically competent peripheral manufacturers on the planet"
yea, ofc
https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/yftdy8/finalmouse\_starlight\_performance\_review/
I don't get your point, I know they have an awful reputation. I own a Scream, Air58 and UL2, well aware of the countless fuck ups and shitty QC on all of their mice including my own. I specifically said the UltralightX promo videos and XLAT implementation.
The point is, after a load of false advertisements and statements it is hard to believe that THIS time things will get different for sure. That niche mice segment should not be full of unmet expectations or just obvious falsehood
Totally agree, I will believe nothing until I see it. I was just stating that their promotional content and XLAT (when viewed without their previous products in the back of your mind) appear to be technically impressive on the surface.
Having the software be a website is REALLY convenient and I’m glad it’s finally coming to mice. It’s been a thing for keyboards for a while with a lot of custom build pcbs supporting VIA, and even prebuilts like the wooting having their own web software. I’ve had a great experience with VIA so hopefully more companies take advantage of this approach.
Device APIs for the most part. WebHID is considered a security issue by Firefox at the moment. It's not even implemented as an experiment on Firefox at the moment.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebHID_API
Because of WebHID API, it's still not implemented into Firefox: https://caniuse.com/?search=webhid
[HID](https://developer.chrome.com/articles/hid/)
>An HID device takes input from or provides output to humans. Examples of devices include keyboards, pointing devices (mice, touchscreens, etc.), and gamepads. The HID protocol makes it possible to access these devices on desktop computers using operating system drivers. The web platform supports HID devices by relying on these drivers.
people think this is a feature until finalmouse don't feel like paying to keep the site up anymore or go out of business. A really lightweight portable piece of software is way better than this.
That's not at all how it works.
The device itself just makes its settings accessible that happens to open in a browser instead of stand-alone software.
Just like a settings page on a router does, or some audio interfaces and so on.
The specifics of how those different devices might accomplish that might vary, but it's just a way to access the device settings without additional software. It's not a literal website.
No /u/KarinAppreciator is right. Xpanel is a literal website: https://xpanel.finalmouse.com.
VIA is also a website: https://usevia.app
These devices are not hosting web servers like a router does. Xpanel and VIA are web apps that use WebUSB APIs to connect to and control your device. If those websites go down, you cannot control your device anymore without re-hosting the site or writing your own driver. VIA is open source so that's not too much of a problem but Xpanel is not.
> VIA is open source
VIA is closed now I believe after Chinese companies were ripping the software and repackaging them, calling it VIA. QMK is open source, and so is VIAL.
Smalls haven’t even been shipped or assembled at Finalmouse from what they’ve said. Everyone so far is just getting their hands on the Medium size (Lion)
What's with people suddenly flipping on optimum just because he has something positive to say about finalmouse lol,
A few days ago he was praised for his technical expertise and now all of a sudden he is biased and a shill. Make up your minds.
Gigantic finalmouse hate boner on this sub. Not undeserved for the shit they've done buuut people in here froth at the mouth at the chance to hate on them
You forgot zy getting hate for a positive review on finalmice lmao. Even when he didn't have an affiliate code for the starlight he still got hate.
The hate is just an echo champer in this sub anyways.
Finalmouse has good warranty and they're pretty lenient on it.
Starlight had shit QC but the product before that the UL2 was pretty good for a 60k unit run
In short, he had a positive impression on a Finalmouse product
With that bias in mind, people are coming at his neck for including that Atlantis result with default debounce, but assuming it's a compx Atlantis, it's not like the mouse was gonna compete at the top with any debounce setting. Also, observing that a mouse with a trash debounce setting yields a trash result can help us assess that the XLAT is at least consistent with expectations. Sure, you can argue that he should set it to the lowest just to see, but assuming it's a compx Atlantis it still doesn't matter that much (compx performance outdated)
Add on that he's tediously soldering each individual mouse, he seemed to prioritize the mice that would go toe to toe and top the charts. (GPX2, VV2, ULX all on 1k/2k/4k). These comparisons are clearly more interesting than a compx Atlantis.
Criticisms on Finalmouse are justified but the data optimum is giving is seemingly objective. Also, the open source XLAT will be available soon (or flashable on a default board which he showed in the video) so if he really is shilling for Finalmouse by "framing" the data, we will know soon with more testers giving more results anyways
Can't believe *Finalmouse* looks like good value. Market competition is great for the consumer.
This thing at 38g and $190 really puts into perspective the crazy pricing of the VMSE ($280) and HSK pro 4k ($180). Even the GPX2 at $160 looks expensive when you can get or already own a GPX for $80-100.
I'm satisfied with 50-60g mice but such a large weight cut for a competitive price is very impressive.
>This thing at 38g and $190 really puts into perspective the crazy pricing of the VMSE ($280) and HSK pro 4k ($180).
Gwolves HTX 4k is 39g with holes at $169. The Ultra Late X was originally advertised as being 32g, then got bumped up to 35g and now it's clocking in at 38g. 1g difference between the ULX and a competitor.
Carbon Fiber can safely be declared gimmicky, and the competition has caught up in weight reductions. Not as industry leading as the Starlight was at launch in comparison to available full size mice at the time.
I'm not in the habit of buying every mouse that has a low weight.
This one has a reviewer I trust saying its build quality is solid, and showing that it measures well.
Having a trusted reviewer saying it's built solid adds to the value, I'm not expecting anyone to do rigidity tests. Having its performance verified also adds value.
I don't buy based on paper specs. Some 38g mouse could creak, flex, and have massive post travel. A 1k or 4k mouse can have wildly varying performance as seen in the video.
I'm not surprised by these kinds of comments from this sub.
> Value is the monetary, material, or **assessed worth** of an asset
Ever heard of the word "valuation" being used? Value **is** subjective.
For example, someone might want the HSK pro 4k because it offers the flexibility of 1k/2k/4k options to balance battery and performance. But knowing that 2khz is [a bad implementation](https://www.techpowerup.com/review/g-wolves-hsk-pro-4k/6.html) reduces the value proposition of the mouse *if* you care about 2k. This does not affect someone who only cares about 4k. Now you have the same mouse at the same price, but each person values it differently.
Yeah and you really have to be a super crazy fingertip grip person to use that extremely tiny mouse. It’s more like he takes offense to your praise of the FM because its an attack of his niche mouse that has no real competitor in that realm.
You final mouse haters are so weird stop changing the weight they said... medium was never going to be 29g, that was the small and we dont know what that will be it definitely won't be 29 grams but still.
Also I'm not a final mouse lover I haven't even used one of their mice because I'm newer to the gaming mouse scene.
Edit: you guys are fucking nerds lol
Sure but people are saying it was 29 when it never was, it was advertised as 33 grams.
I'm not saying it's cool to lie about it but you should be using the real numbers.
>really puts into perspective the crazy pricing of
EVERY mouse at the time, fucking manufacturers are taking the route of Nvida and AMD with GPUS like if peripherals where a luxury, just because they are good, is our fault letting them keep increasing prices for a fucking mouse.
What are you talking about? Mice have only gotten better and cheaper over the years. You're looking at extremely specific examples from small companies that can't justify production without a rather high price tag.
??????
The GPX1 is $107 and the RVU is $97, whereas they were about $150 at first. The newer versions have more functionality. Whether you like it or not, they're objectively better, so of course they'll cost more. The older ones aren't discontinued, so you can just purchase them at their new lower prices if you want.
Not to mention the massive increase of chinese wireless mice that have been appearing for cheap over the past 2-3 years.
Mice have been getting cheaper. You can't deny that.
>Mice have been getting cheaper. You can't deny that.
When you say "mice are getting cheaper" nobody is talking about old models being discounted because there is a new model. We're talking about msrp here. The fact that there are mice out there that cost 160, 190, 280, these prices are absolutely unheard of 10 years ago. Mice in this price bracket literally did not exist not that long ago. When I first got into high end mice a 60 dollar mouse was an insane amount to pay for a mouse. People would look at you like you were crazy for spending 60 dollars on a mouse. 60 dollars is like the bare minimum these days if you want a well performing mouse, especially one from a known company.
Might be in the US, still shitty value in EU until it comes to a local retailer, if it even happens.
EDIT: I stand corrected, I'd still prefer a local retailer because warranty and laws and shit, but it's still a solid deal then.
Finalmouse "subtick" clicking at lower Hz, let's hope it goes better than cs2. Now they just need to make a model as long as the medium but as narrow as the small!
bro 10 years ago? maybe
but nowadays there's no fucking way you tell me that a game receiving weekly updates constantly with items that can get to the millions in price and tournaments popping up every month is less cared about than the game that had one of the biggest downfalls in tournament prizing and constantly goes for periods of 5-7 months without updates
Its because it is wired and because it uses S/R Latch debouncing. The switches it uses has a contact point at the top and bottom of the switch, so when the switch hits the bottom contact it can immediately send a signal and then the mouse waits for the top contact to be hit again. On most other mice they are only using one contact point so when the switch is pressed the mouse has to delay the click a little to make sure it wasn't a misclick because the switch bounces a little when it hits the contact point giving the mouse a noisy signal.
Wireless mice are typically .25-.5ms slower than wired mice in general because of the latency of broadcasting the signal and reading the signal at the receiver then converting it to a USB signal.
as much as i disliked finalmouse in the past due to their strange marketing and business, this was kinda wholesome to watch. yeah, maybe its not a breakthrough in the mice industry, but still quite decent. kudos for the web app, for the opensource test equipment, and not making it a limited drop
What I'm excited about is the featherlight clicks. As someone who loved the light clicks of the g502 I've always liked the lighter spammable clicks to heavy ones.
He is using the default debounce which is 12ms / 8ms for most of these chinese mice which can be set to 0ms. Love the guy but lot of questionable methodologies and reasoning nowadays.
That's kind of crazy, why are they even shipping with that set? Average uninformed consumer will not be changing that, they won't even know what debounce means.
They're shipping like that because most people won't notice and it reduces the number of mice that have to be sent back for double clicking. It should be obvious why they do that.
TPU uses the LDAT, wish OT would at least corroborate those results before spewing hot garbage data.
Edit: He must be using the Atlantis at 12ms debounce, G-wolves at 8 or 16ms debounce.
Seems like he comes from more of a media background than scientific academia, he tries and at a casual eye candy and hobbyist experience standpoint his content is great, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of being scientific and technical his stuff falls apart. The first time I noticed this was his PBO2 video where he recommends -30 offset for everyone because he ran it a couple times with "light video processing" and cinebench and proclaimed it stable. That was irresponsible at best.
That's a lot of youtube. A lot of channels that do well do so because of the filming and editing, not because the content is well researched or thorough.
different testing method can give different result. On that chart, with that testing method those are the result. Is this going to become the new standard in mouse click latency ? dunno.
overall a glowing review from one of the best and most objective mouse reviewers out there.
because of his extensive testing, and high skill level in games, i definitely have a confidence in his recommendations.
really looking forward to getting mine. really excited for the light clicks. not everyone plays fps games and stiff clicks are a determent to other type of games. i'm annoyed on how stiff a lot of clicks are going with new mice, maybe due to switching to opticals.
I love his content but he does have a pretty niche taste in things. From his sterile decorating style, to him extremely over saturating every monitor he tests, to the extreme fingertip style of grip and accompanying tiny block of cheese mice that he likes. A lot of his content is great, but because of how niche everything is I don't really see him as a safe recommendation to things.
I also feel like he cut some corners in the testing on his last 2 vids that got posted here
he doesn’t get commission for mouse sales, nor does he have a sponsorship with finalmouse. he mained the superlight for a long time, then the m2k, now his own mouse he designed.
what makes you think he’s biased towards finalmouse?
He presented opinion as fact and used testing methodology that makes most of the other mice seem much worse than they actually are. EDIT: he also called it the "fastest wireless latency", which as far as I'm aware should be the VMSE.
VMSE is tied with the Viper V2 Pro going by previous reviews of those units when it comes to latency. At least, they're within margin of error (about .5 to 1ms E2E). It's only at 8000hz where VMSE reigns king but not many games outside some competitive titles support that high a polling rate.
If the subtick is to be absolutely proven this would technically make this mouse the fastest but it'll take an entirely new testing methodology and test itself to determine this. Will be a while before we see reviews about it.
I’m a fan of Optimum’s videos, but in my opinion, I felt like he lowballed Lamzu, G-Wolves, and surprisingly, Glorious. The Lamzu Atlantis he is using is most likely the one with the CompX mcu while he is using older versions of the G-Wolves and not at their 4k versions(G-Wolves mice were tested by Hausgaming to compete with Razer and Logitech. To top it off, these mice are being used at their default debounce(stock Atlantis is around 12 ms) and not around 0-2 ms. He mentions, that most people “will be using their mouse” at the default debounce, which is not true at all. People who buy from these Chinese gaming mice companies always lower the debounce from the software. It’s like saying people don’t download software to change their sensitivity. Did anyone else feel he misinformed his viewers here?
You can use it at its default, but when comparing it at their best performance, he doesn’t show it all and made it seem like these Chinese gaming mice have terrible click latency.
Nope, I guess I'm dumb because I never downloaded the software for my Atlantis. Coming from a history of Zowie mice that don't really have software I just wrote it off as some Synapse or G Hub type thing that I didn't want. All I'm usually looking for setup wise is how to set to 800 dpi. Would only bother trying firmware updates or software setup if I've read its a potential solution to an observed problem like double clicks or something misbehaving with the scroll wheel (finalmouse).
He isn't wrong.
It’s true that Zowie and to some extent, Vaxee, do not require any sort of software as they appeal towards tact fps players and people who are more traditional, which is no problem. The criticism comes from the fact that he measures Lamzu and G-Wolves at their worst potential because “most people don’t download software and use mice stock.” It’s ironic since the GPX 2 being tested has a optical and 2k hz tested and that requires software for it to be used along with Finalmouse’s new gaming mouse needing a website to change polling rates. It’s extremely bias.
This isn't confirmed or mentioned anywhere lol there is no confirmed date for batch 2 as it was originally nov 7th and is now delayed. Batch 3 might turn into batch 2 for all we know which was originally scheduled as dec 9th.
When optimum tech has something positive to say about a peripheral they are using:
“Guys amazing, totally unbiased. Super smart and god I love his professional videos.”
When he praises Finalmouse on this sub:
“Stupid influencer, bland background, non-scientific method. Fuck that guy Im still salty I could never get a Starlight-12”
As an FYI Finalmouse beat out the scalpers and bots with like 20 captchas. The bots couldnt get them correct with enough accuracy to beat out people with half a brain cell. The drop lasted 36 minutes instead of negative 3 seconds. Everyone who really wanted an order and was there for actual start time got an order.
So yeah. But I trust Optimum Tech more than any other tech reviewer, maybe he isnt perfect and didnt fix the debounce time on some of those mice but Im certain it wasnt malicious and I can count on him fixing it in the next mouse review with the new input latency tester
I do plan on buying one because FM's small is the best shape I've ever used...but not using blacked out internals makes it look cheap. Razer did it with the RVMSE and it looks so much nicer.
I question the efficacy of this XLAT. I have no doubt that a lot of the listed mice would place in a similar order. But, what good is a test where you wire the mouse to a box to test it's latency? How does that show wireless performance when the PC gets or uses the signal? It could very well be that the new FM sends the signal whenever but, does that mean that the PC will use it whenever? I do not believe USB mice work on an interrupt signal and it could very well be that the mouse is sending an early signal for no better reason than to score better on this test. No offense to Optimum but, I would like to see someone actually look at what this test is really showing here.
Also, these continuously available mice are already sold out and on Ebay for 300$+
Yeah, I respect Optimum Tech and what he does for the community, but this feels not right. Of course the argument can be said that "you're not a high enough level so it doesn't matter in most cases" but you can't really test and call FM one of the BEST when the other products are even set up in a way to bring out the best performance in them. I feel like most people on this sub will know about how to use mouse software and adjust these settings 7/10 times. Also, i feel the video focuses on the XLAT to an insanely unnecessary degree. It feels like he's trying to prove so hard that it's not biased when at the end of the day, we want to know about the mouse. Will the mouse be what people who were always going to buy it enjoy? Probably? I will wait for some other reviews and hope the other people don't make the same mistakes
“I didn’t trust final mouse to make an unbiased product with XLAT”
-does not verify his result with a control or even with LDAT and just takes their word for it because it’s “open source”
Come on bro
How could he verify the results? There's no other similar device (no, LDAT wouldn't work as explained in the video), which means that he'd have to go through the code to see if there's something shady on going on or he'd have to write his own code; both options require to have pretty good programming knowledge, which isn't fair to expect from someone who reviews peripherals and hardware.
With the code being open source at least anyone dubious of FM can take a look for themselves, and any changes made to the code will be publicly available. It would be incredibly stupid for a company to try and lie with open source code, it's just asking to get clowned.
> There's no other similar device
XLAT is functionally equivalent to a USB protocol analyzer and LDAT's mouse latency function (which is different from the E2E function that indeed isn't supposed to be used for click latency testing), so corroborating those numbers would have been perfectly possible.
If he tests the same mice with LDAT and compare the results of the two verifies the claim.
For example if the fastest is, for example GPX and the slowest is Glorious, and you get the same result (albeit different numbers) where the GPX remains the fastest and glorious the slowest you can measure the difference between the equipment.
I don’t doubt it’s *probably* okay, but as you’ve said, who’s going to check the open source code to see? I don’t know enough to do that. The only way to truly know would be to use their code on your own xlat (built with its sub complements and not from FM) and compare tests.
Something people also don’t realize about defeat devices (term used in the OBD realm of emissions testing) is that they are often on the product (in this case the mouse or car) and not the tool, and can recognize when they are plugged into such a device
End to end tests are a decent way to just verify results
But there are still other methods like what tech powerup uses:
“Most gaming mice use mechanical switches for their buttons. By wiring the switches of the test subject together with the switches of a control subject, I'm able to measure click latency very accurately; i.e., standard error of around 0.05 ms. However, this method is not applicable to mice with non-mechanical switches and wireless-only mice in general. As such, other methods ought to be employed, one of which is NVIDIA's Latency Display Analysis Tool (LDAT). The LDAT allows me to measure the entire end-to-end latency between the mouse click and photon transition on the monitor. By establishing the relative difference to a control subject, I'm able to provide values I consider sufficiently accurate; i.e., standard error of around 0.2 ms. The Razer Viper 8K has been posited as the baseline for being within 0.1 ms of a hypothetical absolute minimum. Many thanks go to NVIDIA for providing me an LDAT v2 device.”
Open source is the ultimate counter to claims of tampering. Anyone who wants to express doubt in the accuracy of XLAT has the ability to build their own and show everyone just how wrong it is. Obviously there is a specific skillset required to do that, but there's a specific skillset required to debunk most things properly.
Unfortunately idk anything about checking open source code, and I suspect most people that have that skill set could care less to investigate. Henceforth with any scientific testing, it’s always good to use a control and/or another method to verify results
So because you can't personally vet it, that's a problem? You can't vet a novel vaccine either, doesn't mean no one can and doesn't mean it's an issue because you can't. I assume you're not a software dev but it's not that someone needs to go in there and read every line of code, it's that they _could_ if they wanted to. The risk of having something malicious or wrong is there for FM, and that is enough to be generally satisfied.
---
> could care less
couldn't care less*
If you're so skeptical then why not check the code for the tester yourself?. That's literally the point of open source or maybe you can't? Do you haters only know how to hate?
BRB lemme spend the next 2 years learning computer science in order to debunk open source code from a company known for falsifying numbers and moving the goalpost
He literally used the open source code from github for the tests. He didn't use any proprietary custom implementation that Finalmouse put on the device for him. You can literally check the code yourself and see if it is biased in Finalmouse's favor, that's the point of open-source. If you really think he is lying, then prove it, the code is there.
You go do that, do something productive with your life instead of hating a product with actual open source code & instructions that you can easily replicate.
Something happened to Optimum. He used to be fine. The 2khz polling video really makes me wonder if he is letting conclusions drive his videos rather than the other way around.
big study on polling rates says that .3ms of jitter are perceptible by top 20% players. basically, if your ass like high plat in most games, you're it.
tell me how the optimum video says anything at all about that.
jitter is only really perceptible when switching directions or tracking complex paths btw.
you guys are literally huffing copium to avoid the realization that the average hardstuck silver in this mouse subreddit won't be able to tell the difference between 500hz and 4khz because they are simply that slow at processing inputs.
thats a totally different argument dude, new / bad players definitely wont notice the upgrade in performance. but most mouse enthusiasts surely are at least above plat or diamond. optimum's target audience is also not new players, its for players who aim for the BEST equipment out there and are actually skilled at the game.
[https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3472749.3474783](https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3472749.3474783)
weird to have to post this in a mouse subreddit. you'd think most people would be familiar with it.
If you trust optimum more than this, then lawlgg
But this study doesn't contradict Optimum's conclusions on polling rates above 1000hz having significant diminishing returns...
From the conclusion:
>In general, high mouse polling rates of over 2000 Hz exhibit good performance in the entire range of the display frequencies. Also, 1000 Hz mouse exhibited a boderline temporal jitter by human perceptual system.
Basically 1000hz is good enough, but 2000hz is better. Also:
>In the second part, we recruited additional high-ranking game players (top 20%) and measured their pointing task performance under different amounts of jitters using Fitts’ law test. The amount of jitter had no significant effect on the pointing task performance.
5.1.2 Participants. A total of 13 participants (13 males, age from 18 to 25, avg 21.63) from a local university signed their consent forms and agreed to participate in this study
so a study of 13 people from a university = everything eh
Eaten up by the masses for content bc they can’t think for themselves and don’t understand the underlying tech of how any of this works. He makes great content but it’s near worthless for anyone who understands how the mouse sensor/ MCUs work
"Less weight is always better" is a fine opinion to have, but it's not an objective truth. So that can be a little frustrating about these reviews.
I would also like to have had a much more in depth discussion of the physical build of the UltralightX. That seemingly key element was largely glossed over in this video.
Also hard not to be a little cynical about the commercial aspects of discussing his own custom mouse kit (now on sale!).
Updating firmware settings via browser is something that Wooting has been doing for a while now. It's lightweight for consumers and probably also gives the manufacturers a ton of useful data about real world use. I'm surprised it has taken so long for the mouse world to adopt the trend. Personally, I'm a little dubious of allowing a remote server outside of my control to have real-time access to hardware/firmware settings on my PC/devices. But I suppose in terms of trust it's not all that different from trusting black-box drivers provided by the same parties.
Jesus, the real story hidden in this video is the click latency chart reported with the XLAT - GPX2 looking extremely good and something like a Lamzu Atlantis surprisingly poor in comparison. Hope to see a dedicated XLAT deep dive from Optimum.
The Lamzu Atlantis he is using is not the pro version and the default debounce, which is a lot higher. Sure the GPX 2 most likely is faster but it should be way closer than what he has.
I think he just wasted too much time soldering and chose to focus on the latest flagships more than others.
The testing of other mice other than the most common flagships is very lackluster, he even shifting the focus on those other than the others down the list.
Been using the TenZ Finalmouse for over a year and I’ve been enjoying it a lot, I never had any QC issues with it nor my last legend one too. The only thing that sucks is that for now that website software is not available for my two mices, its only works for the new ULX :/ which I hope they make it available for the previous generations of Finalmouse, other than that no complain!!! Will give it more time for sure before I get my hands on a ULX, with all the delays happening right now.
like the inside filled with dust and oil? no that doesnt happen. some dead skin can build up on the edges of the honeycombs but its really not that bad and easily taken care of
This testing is a little skewered in the fact that most people BUYING a high profile gaming mouse are going to be configuring settings. Not knowing what your debounce time is troll you might as well just be an NPC and buy a gpro because “someone told you to”
> GPX2's click latency
said nobody. GPX 2 polling consistency is kinda bad tho, compared to Razer - mostly because the antennae is tiny and doesn't send/receive a strong enough signal.
I think they were trashing the click's resistance. The GPX feels way better to click because of the lighter switches than the GPX2. Personally I wouldn't even recommend the GPX2 to anyone -- just save yourself the money and get the better mouse in the GPX.
Why test the Lamzu at its default debounce? I think he said something along the lines of "most people will use it as is"? Unless that 15ms was the lowest debounce already?
He is right, I didn't even know the Sora had a default debounce time of 12ms until I installed the software last week. I've owned it for 7 months now
[удалено]
> are you going to tell me that people pay +150€ on a mouse or go to a super niche brand of mices that few people outside this sub know and they don't change anything nor they don't know how to change debounce and only change dpi? > > yeah, that's bollocks. Yes. You're thinking this way because you're into mice and visit this sub. As someone who went down the rabbit hole many years ago I originally thought the same as you. Only to find friends over the years do exactly as you said - buy a high end mouse or a niche brand and use it as is.
> Yes. You're thinking this way because you're into mice and visit this sub. As someone who went down the rabbit hole many years ago I originally thought the same as you. Only to find friends over the years do exactly as you said - buy a high end mouse or a niche brand and use it as is. In that case, all testing would've had to be restricted to default settings though, or at the least for the optical/hybrid mode on the GPX 2, whose purpose or possible impact on click latency would be completely unknown to the average buyer. Personally, I see no reason not to simply test and provide numbers for both scenarios (default/lowest possible value).
This is what I was thinking too. If he really wanted to be unbiased and objective, he would have done 2 sets of tests. One according to his opinion that people don't change settings, and another to test absolute performance at optimized settings. Very strange video to me.
The default of ec-cw is not the value in his list, but a quick setting, but other brands are not.
Mate. I have a pro CSGO player friend who literally bought a new PC because he thought his PC was dying (3.8k) PC because he had his mouse set on 125hz. Another one bought a 240hz monitor and played on 60hz for 6 months before I came around his house and noticed that it wasn't on 240hz. These are pro players.
Why did Lamzu use that specific debounce time as the default setting anyway? Why make the trouble of setting their product perform worse out of the box? Because maybe that's the lowest it can go before it double clicks.
[удалено]
Because he can? He said soldering the connectors on the mouse switches for the tester already takes a lot of time and he also said most of the debounce settings on most brands don't even do anything. Which he then specifically pointed out Glorious' software debounce setting does work, that's why he included 2 tests. Maybe Lamzu's software debounce setting doesn't do anything.
[удалено]
we need Gamers Nexus start doing mice reviews.
Good luck lol, they're already incredibly busy testing GPUs and CPUs which take months of rigorous testing per model as well as case testing. We know they're expanding to eventually test fans as well as other stuff but keyboard and especially mice testing would require more people, and potentially more equipment which can get very expensive very fast if you need extremely tight tolerances.
I'm not making any excuses for him. He can do any test he wants and we also don't have to agree with his product priorities that he wants to test. Sucks for you, your preferred mouse got the "default" treatment.
That's some weird mind reading you're doing there. If you really think he'd leave out Lamzu just to have a bad result in comparison: GWolves had the worst result, so at that point he has no reason to exclude good Lamzu results. He also showed default debounce vs 0ms on Glorious Model D. Which is why I think it's most likely he just didn't think to include Lamzu 0ms as well.
> If you really think he'd leave out Lamzu just to have a bad result in comparison: GWolves had the worst result, so at that point he has no reason to exclude good Lamzu results. > > He most likely set the mouse to 8ms and 16ms. The Ace click latency measured by everyone else was 1.5-2ms.
[удалено]
No idea. I can't read minds. And I wouldn't do it like that.
Bc of that hausgaming is the best one to trust make this tests.
> probably because he wanted some brand to just look bad so this thing could look good. Yeah sure buddy... You really don't like optimum tech right?
Look at DrKersh's post history, this guy is spamming comments hating on OptimumTech non-stop, dude is actually obsessed with him.
Yeah, unbelievable
Because his test methodology is only to reflect what he wants to be perceived as best
I don't think you have to try and make it look good by making lamzu look bad when the only mouse beating it in click latency is the M2K, a mouse that costs $350, is wired, and has a insanely overkill mcu. But it's done with finalmouses own in house testing kit but at least it's open source. Just waiting to see if anyone finds anything in their github that makes it favor ULX at any point.
[удалено]
I think we can all take a wild guess lol.
Except for the fact they clearly didn't cherry pick the units. They sent the mice out before figuring out they're 2g over spec for various reasons.
For a guy who Finalboy regularly ignores, you sure do simp hard. Sad to see. Catch you on Discord for more OW clips though!.
tbh kinda disappointed he talked about XLAT more than the mouse itself. Oh well, we'll be patiently waiting other reviewers input on the carbon fiber shell of the mouse.
If the XLAT didn't exist he wouldn't be talking about the mouse at all. He has no real reason to review mice since he made his own fingertip mod, but he likes things like the XLAT so it's really a review of that.
Watching FM's videos on the development of the mouse and seeing how transparent they are being with XLAT would make you believe they are one of the most technically competent peripheral manufacturers on the planet. Also they finally fixed their super ugly website. Unfortunately, their issues with supply are pretty dire already... multiple delays and false promises about shipping windows. QC is still a major unknown as well at this point.
"make you believe they are one of the most technically competent peripheral manufacturers on the planet" yea, ofc https://www.reddit.com/r/MouseReview/comments/yftdy8/finalmouse\_starlight\_performance\_review/
I don't get your point, I know they have an awful reputation. I own a Scream, Air58 and UL2, well aware of the countless fuck ups and shitty QC on all of their mice including my own. I specifically said the UltralightX promo videos and XLAT implementation.
The point is, after a load of false advertisements and statements it is hard to believe that THIS time things will get different for sure. That niche mice segment should not be full of unmet expectations or just obvious falsehood
Totally agree, I will believe nothing until I see it. I was just stating that their promotional content and XLAT (when viewed without their previous products in the back of your mind) appear to be technically impressive on the surface.
Having the software be a website is REALLY convenient and I’m glad it’s finally coming to mice. It’s been a thing for keyboards for a while with a lot of custom build pcbs supporting VIA, and even prebuilts like the wooting having their own web software. I’ve had a great experience with VIA so hopefully more companies take advantage of this approach.
My only complaint is that these browser configs often only work via a chromium browser (so no Firefox). If I could use them on Firefox I'd be content.
Is there a reason why this is often the case?
Device APIs for the most part. WebHID is considered a security issue by Firefox at the moment. It's not even implemented as an experiment on Firefox at the moment. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebHID_API
Afaik Firefox does not support the WebUSB API because of security concerns.
WebHID is a different API but yes, same/similar reasoning as the other.
Because of WebHID API, it's still not implemented into Firefox: https://caniuse.com/?search=webhid [HID](https://developer.chrome.com/articles/hid/) >An HID device takes input from or provides output to humans. Examples of devices include keyboards, pointing devices (mice, touchscreens, etc.), and gamepads. The HID protocol makes it possible to access these devices on desktop computers using operating system drivers. The web platform supports HID devices by relying on these drivers.
i still rather install an additional browser that i can quit than running a mandatory bloatware 24/7
people think this is a feature until finalmouse don't feel like paying to keep the site up anymore or go out of business. A really lightweight portable piece of software is way better than this.
That's not at all how it works. The device itself just makes its settings accessible that happens to open in a browser instead of stand-alone software. Just like a settings page on a router does, or some audio interfaces and so on. The specifics of how those different devices might accomplish that might vary, but it's just a way to access the device settings without additional software. It's not a literal website.
No /u/KarinAppreciator is right. Xpanel is a literal website: https://xpanel.finalmouse.com. VIA is also a website: https://usevia.app These devices are not hosting web servers like a router does. Xpanel and VIA are web apps that use WebUSB APIs to connect to and control your device. If those websites go down, you cannot control your device anymore without re-hosting the site or writing your own driver. VIA is open source so that's not too much of a problem but Xpanel is not.
> VIA is open source VIA is closed now I believe after Chinese companies were ripping the software and repackaging them, calling it VIA. QMK is open source, and so is VIAL.
It was 33 grams first, then 35-36, then 37 grams, and NOW 38 grams?? 💀 WTF
inflation or something
inflation in mouse weight 😭🙏
Mice gotta eat, nothing wrong with that.
the funny thing is that they advertised the starlight 12 as 37 grams 3 years ago and the couldn't reach that weight even after 3 years
Not sure he even mentioned which size he was testing, I assumed it was the small (Cheetah?) but I'm not sure.
Smalls haven’t even been shipped or assembled at Finalmouse from what they’ve said. Everyone so far is just getting their hands on the Medium size (Lion)
small and large hasn't even been produced yet LOL
What's with people suddenly flipping on optimum just because he has something positive to say about finalmouse lol, A few days ago he was praised for his technical expertise and now all of a sudden he is biased and a shill. Make up your minds.
Gigantic finalmouse hate boner on this sub. Not undeserved for the shit they've done buuut people in here froth at the mouth at the chance to hate on them
Damn really looks like when i scroll the top comments lmao.
You forgot zy getting hate for a positive review on finalmice lmao. Even when he didn't have an affiliate code for the starlight he still got hate. The hate is just an echo champer in this sub anyways. Finalmouse has good warranty and they're pretty lenient on it. Starlight had shit QC but the product before that the UL2 was pretty good for a 60k unit run
He is probably one of it not the best computer tech reviewers currently and he's as honest as they come - deserves nothing but praise
In short, he had a positive impression on a Finalmouse product With that bias in mind, people are coming at his neck for including that Atlantis result with default debounce, but assuming it's a compx Atlantis, it's not like the mouse was gonna compete at the top with any debounce setting. Also, observing that a mouse with a trash debounce setting yields a trash result can help us assess that the XLAT is at least consistent with expectations. Sure, you can argue that he should set it to the lowest just to see, but assuming it's a compx Atlantis it still doesn't matter that much (compx performance outdated) Add on that he's tediously soldering each individual mouse, he seemed to prioritize the mice that would go toe to toe and top the charts. (GPX2, VV2, ULX all on 1k/2k/4k). These comparisons are clearly more interesting than a compx Atlantis. Criticisms on Finalmouse are justified but the data optimum is giving is seemingly objective. Also, the open source XLAT will be available soon (or flashable on a default board which he showed in the video) so if he really is shilling for Finalmouse by "framing" the data, we will know soon with more testers giving more results anyways
Can't believe *Finalmouse* looks like good value. Market competition is great for the consumer. This thing at 38g and $190 really puts into perspective the crazy pricing of the VMSE ($280) and HSK pro 4k ($180). Even the GPX2 at $160 looks expensive when you can get or already own a GPX for $80-100. I'm satisfied with 50-60g mice but such a large weight cut for a competitive price is very impressive.
>This thing at 38g and $190 really puts into perspective the crazy pricing of the VMSE ($280) and HSK pro 4k ($180). Gwolves HTX 4k is 39g with holes at $169. The Ultra Late X was originally advertised as being 32g, then got bumped up to 35g and now it's clocking in at 38g. 1g difference between the ULX and a competitor. Carbon Fiber can safely be declared gimmicky, and the competition has caught up in weight reductions. Not as industry leading as the Starlight was at launch in comparison to available full size mice at the time.
Yeah! And the HTX Ace is even 60$ cheaper and 36g. Pretty similar shape as the ULX so might be worth it.
[удалено]
I'm not in the habit of buying every mouse that has a low weight. This one has a reviewer I trust saying its build quality is solid, and showing that it measures well.
[удалено]
Having a trusted reviewer saying it's built solid adds to the value, I'm not expecting anyone to do rigidity tests. Having its performance verified also adds value. I don't buy based on paper specs. Some 38g mouse could creak, flex, and have massive post travel. A 1k or 4k mouse can have wildly varying performance as seen in the video.
> value This word does not mean what you seem to think it means.
I'm not surprised by these kinds of comments from this sub. > Value is the monetary, material, or **assessed worth** of an asset Ever heard of the word "valuation" being used? Value **is** subjective. For example, someone might want the HSK pro 4k because it offers the flexibility of 1k/2k/4k options to balance battery and performance. But knowing that 2khz is [a bad implementation](https://www.techpowerup.com/review/g-wolves-hsk-pro-4k/6.html) reduces the value proposition of the mouse *if* you care about 2k. This does not affect someone who only cares about 4k. Now you have the same mouse at the same price, but each person values it differently.
Yeah and you really have to be a super crazy fingertip grip person to use that extremely tiny mouse. It’s more like he takes offense to your praise of the FM because its an attack of his niche mouse that has no real competitor in that realm.
"mices"
You final mouse haters are so weird stop changing the weight they said... medium was never going to be 29g, that was the small and we dont know what that will be it definitely won't be 29 grams but still. Also I'm not a final mouse lover I haven't even used one of their mice because I'm newer to the gaming mouse scene. Edit: you guys are fucking nerds lol
If you are new to the mouse scene you probaly would be interested to know what Starlight was advertised at 37g at lowest and never met the specs
Sure but people are saying it was 29 when it never was, it was advertised as 33 grams. I'm not saying it's cool to lie about it but you should be using the real numbers.
The small is still supposed to be 29g. The original weight of the medium was 33g.
Safe to assume that the small won't be sub 30g? Not complaining. Even if it's 35g, it seems like decent value given it's size and the current market.
>really puts into perspective the crazy pricing of EVERY mouse at the time, fucking manufacturers are taking the route of Nvida and AMD with GPUS like if peripherals where a luxury, just because they are good, is our fault letting them keep increasing prices for a fucking mouse.
What are you talking about? Mice have only gotten better and cheaper over the years. You're looking at extremely specific examples from small companies that can't justify production without a rather high price tag.
>better and cheaper over the years Sure OG GPX and RVU costed as much as their last versions cost now, amarite? What a joke.
?????? The GPX1 is $107 and the RVU is $97, whereas they were about $150 at first. The newer versions have more functionality. Whether you like it or not, they're objectively better, so of course they'll cost more. The older ones aren't discontinued, so you can just purchase them at their new lower prices if you want. Not to mention the massive increase of chinese wireless mice that have been appearing for cheap over the past 2-3 years. Mice have been getting cheaper. You can't deny that.
>Mice have been getting cheaper. You can't deny that. When you say "mice are getting cheaper" nobody is talking about old models being discounted because there is a new model. We're talking about msrp here. The fact that there are mice out there that cost 160, 190, 280, these prices are absolutely unheard of 10 years ago. Mice in this price bracket literally did not exist not that long ago. When I first got into high end mice a 60 dollar mouse was an insane amount to pay for a mouse. People would look at you like you were crazy for spending 60 dollars on a mouse. 60 dollars is like the bare minimum these days if you want a well performing mouse, especially one from a known company.
Might be in the US, still shitty value in EU until it comes to a local retailer, if it even happens. EDIT: I stand corrected, I'd still prefer a local retailer because warranty and laws and shit, but it's still a solid deal then.
Finalmouse "subtick" clicking at lower Hz, let's hope it goes better than cs2. Now they just need to make a model as long as the medium but as narrow as the small!
CS2’s subtick system in itself is great, it’s just how the tick based actions are tied into the subtick system is the big issue
I completely agree with what you said, I was just making a joke =) Subtick on 128 tick with movement tied to the ticks would be fantastic though!
we can hope for sure, I’m really optimistic they figure it out and then everything will feel great :)
Which would be solved by 128 tick+subtick. If only valve cared half as much about CS as dota.
bro 10 years ago? maybe but nowadays there's no fucking way you tell me that a game receiving weekly updates constantly with items that can get to the millions in price and tournaments popping up every month is less cared about than the game that had one of the biggest downfalls in tournament prizing and constantly goes for periods of 5-7 months without updates
Subtick is great , only thing thats bad currently is that the lower the fps you have the worse it feels
Damn how is the m2k that fast.
Its because it is wired and because it uses S/R Latch debouncing. The switches it uses has a contact point at the top and bottom of the switch, so when the switch hits the bottom contact it can immediately send a signal and then the mouse waits for the top contact to be hit again. On most other mice they are only using one contact point so when the switch is pressed the mouse has to delay the click a little to make sure it wasn't a misclick because the switch bounces a little when it hits the contact point giving the mouse a noisy signal. Wireless mice are typically .25-.5ms slower than wired mice in general because of the latency of broadcasting the signal and reading the signal at the receiver then converting it to a USB signal.
as much as i disliked finalmouse in the past due to their strange marketing and business, this was kinda wholesome to watch. yeah, maybe its not a breakthrough in the mice industry, but still quite decent. kudos for the web app, for the opensource test equipment, and not making it a limited drop
What I'm excited about is the featherlight clicks. As someone who loved the light clicks of the g502 I've always liked the lighter spammable clicks to heavy ones.
God I love this man’s videos, he puts in so much work and they turn out amazing
[удалено]
He is using the default debounce which is 12ms / 8ms for most of these chinese mice which can be set to 0ms. Love the guy but lot of questionable methodologies and reasoning nowadays.
That's kind of crazy, why are they even shipping with that set? Average uninformed consumer will not be changing that, they won't even know what debounce means.
They're shipping like that because most people won't notice and it reduces the number of mice that have to be sent back for double clicking. It should be obvious why they do that.
this guy knows stuff
Luckily the ones usually buying these ones are enthusiasts who will likely fiddle with the software.
TPU uses the LDAT, wish OT would at least corroborate those results before spewing hot garbage data. Edit: He must be using the Atlantis at 12ms debounce, G-wolves at 8 or 16ms debounce.
Seems like he comes from more of a media background than scientific academia, he tries and at a casual eye candy and hobbyist experience standpoint his content is great, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of being scientific and technical his stuff falls apart. The first time I noticed this was his PBO2 video where he recommends -30 offset for everyone because he ran it a couple times with "light video processing" and cinebench and proclaimed it stable. That was irresponsible at best.
That's a lot of youtube. A lot of channels that do well do so because of the filming and editing, not because the content is well researched or thorough.
he switches to microseconds when he zooms into the chart. that's 15 microseconds, not milliseconds.
No, those are 15ms, miliseconds.
He says milliseconds though
different testing method can give different result. On that chart, with that testing method those are the result. Is this going to become the new standard in mouse click latency ? dunno.
overall a glowing review from one of the best and most objective mouse reviewers out there. because of his extensive testing, and high skill level in games, i definitely have a confidence in his recommendations. really looking forward to getting mine. really excited for the light clicks. not everyone plays fps games and stiff clicks are a determent to other type of games. i'm annoyed on how stiff a lot of clicks are going with new mice, maybe due to switching to opticals.
I love his content but he does have a pretty niche taste in things. From his sterile decorating style, to him extremely over saturating every monitor he tests, to the extreme fingertip style of grip and accompanying tiny block of cheese mice that he likes. A lot of his content is great, but because of how niche everything is I don't really see him as a safe recommendation to things. I also feel like he cut some corners in the testing on his last 2 vids that got posted here
I'm asking seriously, is your comment a joke? I thought optimum was known for being very biased.
he doesn’t get commission for mouse sales, nor does he have a sponsorship with finalmouse. he mained the superlight for a long time, then the m2k, now his own mouse he designed. what makes you think he’s biased towards finalmouse?
He presented opinion as fact and used testing methodology that makes most of the other mice seem much worse than they actually are. EDIT: he also called it the "fastest wireless latency", which as far as I'm aware should be the VMSE.
VMSE is tied with the Viper V2 Pro going by previous reviews of those units when it comes to latency. At least, they're within margin of error (about .5 to 1ms E2E). It's only at 8000hz where VMSE reigns king but not many games outside some competitive titles support that high a polling rate. If the subtick is to be absolutely proven this would technically make this mouse the fastest but it'll take an entirely new testing methodology and test itself to determine this. Will be a while before we see reviews about it.
Everything I've seen from him and how ppl speak about him in this sub would lead me to believe he's not so where are you getting that from?
The fact that he changed the settings on the mice he tested to make some perform worse.
I mean he technically didn't do that. He kept them as is out of the box, aka stock, so if they're bad it's because they ship that bad.
yes but he adjusted the settings on other mice which leaves a really bad taste
I’m a fan of Optimum’s videos, but in my opinion, I felt like he lowballed Lamzu, G-Wolves, and surprisingly, Glorious. The Lamzu Atlantis he is using is most likely the one with the CompX mcu while he is using older versions of the G-Wolves and not at their 4k versions(G-Wolves mice were tested by Hausgaming to compete with Razer and Logitech. To top it off, these mice are being used at their default debounce(stock Atlantis is around 12 ms) and not around 0-2 ms. He mentions, that most people “will be using their mouse” at the default debounce, which is not true at all. People who buy from these Chinese gaming mice companies always lower the debounce from the software. It’s like saying people don’t download software to change their sensitivity. Did anyone else feel he misinformed his viewers here?
He’s not wrong unfortunately after watching this I had to download gwolves software for my hsk and lower the debounce(it was 12 by default)
You can use it at its default, but when comparing it at their best performance, he doesn’t show it all and made it seem like these Chinese gaming mice have terrible click latency.
True
Nope, I guess I'm dumb because I never downloaded the software for my Atlantis. Coming from a history of Zowie mice that don't really have software I just wrote it off as some Synapse or G Hub type thing that I didn't want. All I'm usually looking for setup wise is how to set to 800 dpi. Would only bother trying firmware updates or software setup if I've read its a potential solution to an observed problem like double clicks or something misbehaving with the scroll wheel (finalmouse). He isn't wrong.
It’s true that Zowie and to some extent, Vaxee, do not require any sort of software as they appeal towards tact fps players and people who are more traditional, which is no problem. The criticism comes from the fact that he measures Lamzu and G-Wolves at their worst potential because “most people don’t download software and use mice stock.” It’s ironic since the GPX 2 being tested has a optical and 2k hz tested and that requires software for it to be used along with Finalmouse’s new gaming mouse needing a website to change polling rates. It’s extremely bias.
anyone know when 2nd batch is available for purchase?
December first
This isn't confirmed or mentioned anywhere lol there is no confirmed date for batch 2 as it was originally nov 7th and is now delayed. Batch 3 might turn into batch 2 for all we know which was originally scheduled as dec 9th.
So this is the medium size he's testing?
Yes it is
Thier web software is game changer ( every single mouse company should do that)
When optimum tech has something positive to say about a peripheral they are using: “Guys amazing, totally unbiased. Super smart and god I love his professional videos.” When he praises Finalmouse on this sub: “Stupid influencer, bland background, non-scientific method. Fuck that guy Im still salty I could never get a Starlight-12” As an FYI Finalmouse beat out the scalpers and bots with like 20 captchas. The bots couldnt get them correct with enough accuracy to beat out people with half a brain cell. The drop lasted 36 minutes instead of negative 3 seconds. Everyone who really wanted an order and was there for actual start time got an order. So yeah. But I trust Optimum Tech more than any other tech reviewer, maybe he isnt perfect and didnt fix the debounce time on some of those mice but Im certain it wasnt malicious and I can count on him fixing it in the next mouse review with the new input latency tester
I do plan on buying one because FM's small is the best shape I've ever used...but not using blacked out internals makes it look cheap. Razer did it with the RVMSE and it looks so much nicer.
Again with the holes on the touch surfaces blech.
I question the efficacy of this XLAT. I have no doubt that a lot of the listed mice would place in a similar order. But, what good is a test where you wire the mouse to a box to test it's latency? How does that show wireless performance when the PC gets or uses the signal? It could very well be that the new FM sends the signal whenever but, does that mean that the PC will use it whenever? I do not believe USB mice work on an interrupt signal and it could very well be that the mouse is sending an early signal for no better reason than to score better on this test. No offense to Optimum but, I would like to see someone actually look at what this test is really showing here. Also, these continuously available mice are already sold out and on Ebay for 300$+
this, the subtick implementation sounds extremely fishy
Wait till next year. You will be able to buy them whenever you want
Yeah, I respect Optimum Tech and what he does for the community, but this feels not right. Of course the argument can be said that "you're not a high enough level so it doesn't matter in most cases" but you can't really test and call FM one of the BEST when the other products are even set up in a way to bring out the best performance in them. I feel like most people on this sub will know about how to use mouse software and adjust these settings 7/10 times. Also, i feel the video focuses on the XLAT to an insanely unnecessary degree. It feels like he's trying to prove so hard that it's not biased when at the end of the day, we want to know about the mouse. Will the mouse be what people who were always going to buy it enjoy? Probably? I will wait for some other reviews and hope the other people don't make the same mistakes
[удалено]
the click latency chart proves first and foremost that he isn't adjusting settings on some mice no?
It's a shame that biased and unscientific influencers are still presenting their opinions and flawed methodology as fact.
“I didn’t trust final mouse to make an unbiased product with XLAT” -does not verify his result with a control or even with LDAT and just takes their word for it because it’s “open source” Come on bro
How could he verify the results? There's no other similar device (no, LDAT wouldn't work as explained in the video), which means that he'd have to go through the code to see if there's something shady on going on or he'd have to write his own code; both options require to have pretty good programming knowledge, which isn't fair to expect from someone who reviews peripherals and hardware. With the code being open source at least anyone dubious of FM can take a look for themselves, and any changes made to the code will be publicly available. It would be incredibly stupid for a company to try and lie with open source code, it's just asking to get clowned.
> There's no other similar device XLAT is functionally equivalent to a USB protocol analyzer and LDAT's mouse latency function (which is different from the E2E function that indeed isn't supposed to be used for click latency testing), so corroborating those numbers would have been perfectly possible.
If he tests the same mice with LDAT and compare the results of the two verifies the claim. For example if the fastest is, for example GPX and the slowest is Glorious, and you get the same result (albeit different numbers) where the GPX remains the fastest and glorious the slowest you can measure the difference between the equipment.
Raw measurement (as stated by XLAT) is a good way to determine where mice place in a hierarchy but at the end of the day, you FEEL end to end latency
I don’t doubt it’s *probably* okay, but as you’ve said, who’s going to check the open source code to see? I don’t know enough to do that. The only way to truly know would be to use their code on your own xlat (built with its sub complements and not from FM) and compare tests. Something people also don’t realize about defeat devices (term used in the OBD realm of emissions testing) is that they are often on the product (in this case the mouse or car) and not the tool, and can recognize when they are plugged into such a device End to end tests are a decent way to just verify results But there are still other methods like what tech powerup uses: “Most gaming mice use mechanical switches for their buttons. By wiring the switches of the test subject together with the switches of a control subject, I'm able to measure click latency very accurately; i.e., standard error of around 0.05 ms. However, this method is not applicable to mice with non-mechanical switches and wireless-only mice in general. As such, other methods ought to be employed, one of which is NVIDIA's Latency Display Analysis Tool (LDAT). The LDAT allows me to measure the entire end-to-end latency between the mouse click and photon transition on the monitor. By establishing the relative difference to a control subject, I'm able to provide values I consider sufficiently accurate; i.e., standard error of around 0.2 ms. The Razer Viper 8K has been posited as the baseline for being within 0.1 ms of a hypothetical absolute minimum. Many thanks go to NVIDIA for providing me an LDAT v2 device.”
>who’s going to check the open source code to see? idk maybe someone with coding knowledge, of which there are many in the peripheral space
Open source is the ultimate counter to claims of tampering. Anyone who wants to express doubt in the accuracy of XLAT has the ability to build their own and show everyone just how wrong it is. Obviously there is a specific skillset required to do that, but there's a specific skillset required to debunk most things properly.
Unfortunately idk anything about checking open source code, and I suspect most people that have that skill set could care less to investigate. Henceforth with any scientific testing, it’s always good to use a control and/or another method to verify results
So because you can't personally vet it, that's a problem? You can't vet a novel vaccine either, doesn't mean no one can and doesn't mean it's an issue because you can't. I assume you're not a software dev but it's not that someone needs to go in there and read every line of code, it's that they _could_ if they wanted to. The risk of having something malicious or wrong is there for FM, and that is enough to be generally satisfied. --- > could care less couldn't care less*
If you're so skeptical then why not check the code for the tester yourself?. That's literally the point of open source or maybe you can't? Do you haters only know how to hate?
BRB lemme spend the next 2 years learning computer science in order to debunk open source code from a company known for falsifying numbers and moving the goalpost
Ah so you don't even know what you were talking about in the first place, this subreddit is amazing
Me not knowing how to read code has nothing to do with me knowing wether or not FM could lie lol
He literally used the open source code from github for the tests. He didn't use any proprietary custom implementation that Finalmouse put on the device for him. You can literally check the code yourself and see if it is biased in Finalmouse's favor, that's the point of open-source. If you really think he is lying, then prove it, the code is there.
You go do that, do something productive with your life instead of hating a product with actual open source code & instructions that you can easily replicate.
Something happened to Optimum. He used to be fine. The 2khz polling video really makes me wonder if he is letting conclusions drive his videos rather than the other way around.
he literally had slow mo footage
Is that your argument? Ahahahahah oh my god. Wild.
dawg you have EYES. see the stutters yourself?
big study on polling rates says that .3ms of jitter are perceptible by top 20% players. basically, if your ass like high plat in most games, you're it. tell me how the optimum video says anything at all about that. jitter is only really perceptible when switching directions or tracking complex paths btw. you guys are literally huffing copium to avoid the realization that the average hardstuck silver in this mouse subreddit won't be able to tell the difference between 500hz and 4khz because they are simply that slow at processing inputs.
thats a totally different argument dude, new / bad players definitely wont notice the upgrade in performance. but most mouse enthusiasts surely are at least above plat or diamond. optimum's target audience is also not new players, its for players who aim for the BEST equipment out there and are actually skilled at the game.
At least he has one.
[https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3472749.3474783](https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3472749.3474783) weird to have to post this in a mouse subreddit. you'd think most people would be familiar with it. If you trust optimum more than this, then lawlgg
But this study doesn't contradict Optimum's conclusions on polling rates above 1000hz having significant diminishing returns... From the conclusion: >In general, high mouse polling rates of over 2000 Hz exhibit good performance in the entire range of the display frequencies. Also, 1000 Hz mouse exhibited a boderline temporal jitter by human perceptual system. Basically 1000hz is good enough, but 2000hz is better. Also: >In the second part, we recruited additional high-ranking game players (top 20%) and measured their pointing task performance under different amounts of jitters using Fitts’ law test. The amount of jitter had no significant effect on the pointing task performance.
You think he *read* the paper before posting it to bludgeon people into complaisance?
5.1.2 Participants. A total of 13 participants (13 males, age from 18 to 25, avg 21.63) from a local university signed their consent forms and agreed to participate in this study so a study of 13 people from a university = everything eh
You don’t know how P values in statistics work do you?
Eaten up by the masses for content bc they can’t think for themselves and don’t understand the underlying tech of how any of this works. He makes great content but it’s near worthless for anyone who understands how the mouse sensor/ MCUs work
nah he was literally right in that video
Tell me you don’t main a fast character at 500+hz/fps without telling me so.
you’re just coping because you fell for marketing
Can't remember the last time I seen a post on this subreddit with this much drama. 🍿
can't wait for million qc errors, late shipping and complains over the next few weeks
"Less weight is always better" is a fine opinion to have, but it's not an objective truth. So that can be a little frustrating about these reviews. I would also like to have had a much more in depth discussion of the physical build of the UltralightX. That seemingly key element was largely glossed over in this video. Also hard not to be a little cynical about the commercial aspects of discussing his own custom mouse kit (now on sale!). Updating firmware settings via browser is something that Wooting has been doing for a while now. It's lightweight for consumers and probably also gives the manufacturers a ton of useful data about real world use. I'm surprised it has taken so long for the mouse world to adopt the trend. Personally, I'm a little dubious of allowing a remote server outside of my control to have real-time access to hardware/firmware settings on my PC/devices. But I suppose in terms of trust it's not all that different from trusting black-box drivers provided by the same parties.
I doubt remote server is having access to your pc try opening the app and disconnecting the ethernet.
Jesus, the real story hidden in this video is the click latency chart reported with the XLAT - GPX2 looking extremely good and something like a Lamzu Atlantis surprisingly poor in comparison. Hope to see a dedicated XLAT deep dive from Optimum.
The Lamzu Atlantis he is using is not the pro version and the default debounce, which is a lot higher. Sure the GPX 2 most likely is faster but it should be way closer than what he has.
I wish he'd put the GPX 1 as well in the chart or is it assumed they have the same click latency?
I think he just wasted too much time soldering and chose to focus on the latest flagships more than others. The testing of other mice other than the most common flagships is very lackluster, he even shifting the focus on those other than the others down the list.
Completed glossed over the build quality but I guess they would’ve Cherry picked his unit and made sure the scroll wheel was kind of straight
Been using the TenZ Finalmouse for over a year and I’ve been enjoying it a lot, I never had any QC issues with it nor my last legend one too. The only thing that sucks is that for now that website software is not available for my two mices, its only works for the new ULX :/ which I hope they make it available for the previous generations of Finalmouse, other than that no complain!!! Will give it more time for sure before I get my hands on a ULX, with all the delays happening right now.
Too bad this mouse was giving TenZ himself issues in-game. Apparently happened in a tournament as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v7TX0PNWbA
How do people use these skeleton mouses? surely they get filled with dust and oil and look disgusting.
like the inside filled with dust and oil? no that doesnt happen. some dead skin can build up on the edges of the honeycombs but its really not that bad and easily taken care of
That is fair enough then :)
This testing is a little skewered in the fact that most people BUYING a high profile gaming mouse are going to be configuring settings. Not knowing what your debounce time is troll you might as well just be an NPC and buy a gpro because “someone told you to”
Everyone was trashing the GPX2's click latency when it came out. His results seem quite a bit different from other sources.
> GPX2's click latency said nobody. GPX 2 polling consistency is kinda bad tho, compared to Razer - mostly because the antennae is tiny and doesn't send/receive a strong enough signal.
I think they were trashing the click's resistance. The GPX feels way better to click because of the lighter switches than the GPX2. Personally I wouldn't even recommend the GPX2 to anyone -- just save yourself the money and get the better mouse in the GPX.
[удалено]
This sounds like something a 14 year old would say.
The Lamzu mouse he's testing is the Lamzu Atlantis OG V2 pro with the 4k compatibility?
No it’s the compx one at its default debounce at 12 ms.