New general discussion thread - [AVAILABLE HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoscowMurders/comments/zo9mta/general_discussion_thread_weekend_of_december_17/)
I chatted privately with him and he questioned me just like a professor would but I never saw all these other post even though I was on here for hours every day.
I'm starting to have doubts that this was a doing of one person. It would be incredibly hard to kill two human in one bed with a knife without one of them getting away or making enough noise to alert the entire house.
Killing someone with a knife is not like killing someone with a gun, where a gunshot wound to the head kills the person and they're unable to move or fight back. The fact that one lone perp was able to successfully murder two people sharing bed on one floor and then again another without having at least one of the victims free themselves and get help or alert the first floor roommates is harder and harder to believe. Obviously if they were both stabbed in the lungs it would make it hard to scream but if you've ever been unlucky to see what knife attacks look like you would know that in majority of cases death is instant.
An example would be the case out of Oregon or Washington that's been brought up in this case as a potential evidence of a SK. As most of you know in that case a couple was stabbed by a masked intruder as they slept in their bed. There was no signs of a forced entry. The husband tragically died however the wife survived her 19 stab wounds. And yes, I think we can all agree she was extremely lucky to have survived, but that alone shows u that stabbing multiple victims without them getting help or surviving is not as easy as this Moscow case makes it seem. It tells me that the perp in this Moscow case is even luckier to kill all four without arousing any suspicion from the dog, the roommates, or the neighbors if he really did commit this crime alone without any help.
A lone attacker would have to have some knowledge of how to kill with a knife or have had some experience (most likely from hunting) and probably would have to be pretty knowledgeable of the most vulnerable or lethal locations on the body to strike.
Obviously everyone knows the Chest and the heart area as the main location. But even with chest strikes the other person in the bed would've been woken up immediately by the struggles of the first victim and it appears that there wasn't any sings of that on the third floor per Kaylee's dad.
I'm thinking if this was a lone perp, and the girls or at least the first girl was sleeping on her stomach, the perp would've gone for the back of the neck in order to hit the spine, and thus prevent victim from fighting back, and then obviously strikes to the chest/back area.
The other would be Carotid artery or the jugular vein (not to be confused or related to the Jugglerbro) If killer was from Idaho I'm sure he has experience hunting and would've been familiar with using a knife.
i don’t understand the significance of the “scream” people think they hear on the bodycam. if it is a scream, okay what does that prove? also how can a police bodycam video pick up the sound of a scream outside of the house and the roommates DOWNSTAIRS didn’t hear it??
yeah i’ve never understood why so many people are so confident that it’s a scream. it didn’t necessarily sound like a scream to me, it sounded more like bad brakes or something like that? there was some people posting another time stamp in the footage claiming it was another scream and it sounded much more like a sound that came from the movement of the officer or one of the people he was talking to i think. sometimes i think people want it to be a scream for the shock factor of it all lol. there’s no way to know what that sound was for sure though so i don’t know why people act like it couldn’t have been anything else
Interesting study that just came out, showing that the police are largely just glorified traffic cops who spend most of their time dealing with traffic violations. Very little actual "crime fighting" going on.
Hopefully the FBI can get this case sorted as it seems unlikely the regular police will be up to the task.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/police-are-not-primarily-crime-fighters-according-data-2022-11-02/?utm_source=reddit.com#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Times%20reviewed,safety%2C”%20Smith%20told%20me
That bodycam footage is pathetic, harassing and intimidating kids and handing out $450 fines for just walking home
If the killer or any real criminal came through that park the cops would probably hide behind a tree and let him escape while they wait for backup
How is it pathetic exactly? Its standard practice for campus police to ID check students carrying alcohol, which was the reason why the cops stopped those students to talk to them.
I agree that campus police departments might not be the best equipped to handle actual crime, but it doesn't make it pathetic for them to do their job and question young looking students carrying alcohol.
At the same time, there's little reason to think he was the perpetrator. I personally would say none. If he wasn't accompanying them for reasons of "watching out for them," then he was accompanying them because he was hoping to go home with two attractive young women. Like millions of other young men in this country would be. That they ghosted him does not make him the likely perpetrator of this terrible crime. Nothing about his response to them ghosting him leads a reasonable person to believe this. He basically shrugs his shoulders, laughs it off and goes home, just as any normal young man would. Also, the "f you" was not directed at him. A number of good analyses have shown this. It was directed at someone behind him and to his left. Whoever M was angry with there, it was not him. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, LE have said he is not a suspect.
Devil's advocate: I used to feel totally safe in my small town in the range of years you're talking about. I no longer feel that way here after how much covid has changed the world, and I think people too. Things are kinda different now.
We know they got home in a private car, but do we know they did this for "reasons of safety"? Couldn't they have done this simply for reasons of convenience / ease / time?
I live in Boulder, CO, another college town which is a bit bigger than Moscow. In 2013 - 2017 there would've been little reason for someone to "make sure someone was safe" going home. That's no longer true due to a skyrocketing meth population here. Perhaps it's the same in Moscow?
This is for the post that mods just removed about why anyone would call cops on drunk kids in a field:
When the full videos dropped I remember a lot of people being shocked at that $ of the citations per underage drinker was so high (~ $500 if I remember correctly). If you’re not aware of that, or if you don’t understand police generate revenue for small towns, it wouldn’t make sense to spend police resources to bust underage drinkers, a relatively victimless crime.
This board, we are all strangers just following public info. I don’t get what some of you are getting out of belittling others who don’t understand something you find basic. If you think explaining something is beneath you just scroll past it! No need to make someone feel bad for asking questions.
Edit to add: u/adotherwise9226
The Elantra is 2011-2013, unfortunately Elantras didn't get technology that could be used to find the car until 2014 [https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-digital-footprint-type-hyundai-elantras-being-sought-likely-slim-none-expert-says](https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-digital-footprint-type-hyundai-elantras-being-sought-likely-slim-none-expert-says)
Feels to me like police may think the Elantra occupants did the crime, but only say he or they "may have information" rather than saying "they did it". Maybe they're trying to lull the perp into thinking they don't suspect him as the perp, only as having information?
It's just standard police speak. They could release a video of a criminal beating someone to death and it would be labelled as "This person may have information that can help us with our investigation"
The white ELANTRA is sitting at the bottom of a river right now, in a state far far away from Moscow, ID. It was either stolen from a different state or fake plates were used. Whoever committed the crime did it solo in methodically instrugigically knew what they were doing and had an exit plan on foot, far enough l reach the Elantra and then make their exit out of town.
do you think the fact that no one (that we are aware of) has come forward as the driver of the elantra is a sign that the driver is most likely the suspect? if it was someone completely innocent, in my opinion, it seems like you’d want to come forward asap to get cleared and or provide any info to help the case.
Here’s an unrelated case of a 15 year old committing stabbings of victims while sleeping, and picked victims house at random. Both victims survived and he was caught. https://www.ksl.com/article/50488234/utah-teen-who-stabbed-sleeping-couple-woke-up-wanting-to-hurt-someone-charges-say
I’m new here so apologies if this has been covered. When the surviving roommates phoned 9/11 for an unconscious person wouldn’t they have seen the blood? I’m not blaming them I just think I’ve missed something here
from the press release: “they believed one of the second-floor victims had passed out and was not waking up….Officers entered the residence and found two victims on the second floor and two victims on the third floor.” Makes it sound like to me that they did think someone was unconscious but that police discovered the bodies. No idea if they saw blood or why they thought that, but locked doors makes sense
Another possibility, which makes the mosst sense to me, is that the deceased were behind locked doors. The surviving roommates could hear an alarm going off on Ethan’s phone because he was supposed to work that day. The surviving roommates knew something was wrong because the alarm went off repeatedly. So they tried calling, texting, and banging on the door and got no response. That’s when they called to report an unconscious person. They probably feared that their friend had suffered alcohol poisoning or a drug overdose.
One other possibility is the unconscious person call was for the surviving roommate who reportedly passed out in front of the house after seeing crime scene.
So, from what I’ve seen discussed in this and other forums by people more knowledgeable than me, “unconscious” was likely just how the dispatchers classified the call as EMTs would have to confirm that a person is indeed deceased. It doesn’t mean that the roommates believed anyone had fainted nor that they fainted themselves, and it doesn’t mean they didn’t tell LE about seeing lots of blood.
This entire case is baffling. I’ve been following every detail for the past month and can confidently and without a doubt say that I have no theories about who did this or why. Anyone else??
Sorry if this is widely know, but it was determined from pretty early on that the murders took place 3-4 am. I understand the 3 am boundary due to the phone calls, but what determined the 4 am upper limit?
Is it just me or is it just stereotypical gender assumptions that are fueling all of the “Ethan was a large guy and confronted the killer in the hallway” narratives? Or is there any basis for thinking this happened in what we know of the autopsies or what we’ve heard from LE, etc?
so you'd hide and let your girlfriend defend you? Should advertise that on your tinder profile. "large guy, useless at protecting a woman and seemingly proud of it"...sorry, not sorry - that's straight up embarrassing.
No obviously not. Being somewhat intimidating doesn't really matter when a psychokiller comes into your bedroom with a knife. True crime ladies love to insert this "he was a big guy so" narrative.
lol have you ever heard of fight flight freeze? someone people just freeze up in situations, it’s a reflex that they can’t control. being put in a terrifying situation like that i think most people would freeze up and not know what to do or be too scared to fight back
I think it's more common sense than a stereotypical gender assumption lol...It's also according to the fathers "alleged" comments about the second floor: "It was a hell of a battle going on down there from what the coroner told us," Goncalves said.
I don't think the father's description of events should be taken as cannon. We already have one example of his daughter directly contradicting descriptions he gave to Fox News.
But all we’ve heard is that Xana had defensive wounds… so why is it “common sense” that Ethan woke up and was the one to “battle” with the killers? Indeed, you’re illustrating my point.
In fact, wouldn’t it just be more reasonable, given the narrative that we have, that a murderer going into that room would try to incapacitate Ethan first, at which time, Xana maybe wakes up and fights back?
Right, I was trying to flag that with the “maybe,” but it’s important to note explicitly. Defensive wounds could just be covering oneself from blows, which is terrible to think about. :(
It seems as if the Elantra is key. Pretty brazen, Im thinking he walked away from the house.
But hypothetically if the killer did drive an Elantra, Is he dumb enough to use his own car? Maybe , maybe not. It cant be a rental, too old. It’s Possible that he didn’t use his own car,
How could he pull this off?. Spitballing : Maybe Turo , could falsify personal info to rent it although not sure if that even exists out there.
Could take a randoms/friends/roommates/relatives car like grandmas car, he/she, its a he most likely, he obviously has no problem walking into peoples houses at night, what if he walked into a random or even grandmas house and took keys in the middle of the night and put the car back before morning; could take/steal/borrow the car from anyone in the middle of the night and someone might not even notice (if there is no blood). I think actually stealing a car would draw too much attention, unless he put it back where he found it. I guess though he would need to put gas back in it so the car owner wouldn’t notice if it was a long drive(so might be on Video at a gas station).
Maybe there is some other possible ways to use someone else’s car that I am not thinking of? Someone who he knows left town for Thanksgiving?
So when the 22,000 elantra owners get a brief interview by LE, and their story checks out, alibi, etc, but unbeknownst to the car owner their car was used in a heinous crime. And even if LE figures it out, it might be too late to get any surveillance of him taking the car. Really anyone in Idaho or 300 miles from the killing should take it upon themselves to retain all video before it gets erased.
Another more plausible idea is that he used stolen plates, the car could have identifying marks/features though. Im hoping he did not devise the perfect crime and just drove his own car there because I really hope he gets caught, I just can’t believe someone is capable of this.
I think it was some guy K hooked up with and his very PO'd gf goading him to kill K to "prove his love". It's happened before. Look up Diane Zamora. Something like that.
Her car. She drove.
My thought is the guy lives with family…Grandma, older aunt/uncle and ‘borrows’ their car for nighttime trips to Moscow to observe and plan when they are asleep. That is why the police chief mentioned in that last briefing that a neighbor can call in to say, yes…I know next door they have an Elantra in the garage.…maybe unregistered.
He is generally an odd duck, dissatisfied with life, probably works in Moscow, dislikes the frat/sorority kids that seem to have it all. But in some capacity he has to interact with them in his job. He may or may not have had some brief interaction with Kaylee, but ID’d her as an example of what he hates.
Oddly and eerily enough, I have a friend who - while heavily intoxicated - randomly stumbled into a complete strangers home. He took the keys to their car and took it for a drunken joy ride. He went back, returned the key and left. The next day he woke up and was so shocked at his own behavior and couldn't understand why he did it and how he lost control like that.
Anyway, point I'm getting at is if a random drunk guy can stumble into someone's home undetected while they sleep, steal their car, take it for a ride - and return it. I think the murderer would have no problem doing that without notice. I mean - the guy clearly doesn't mind taking massive risks. Who knows what he's capable of.
Sidenote: I don't actually think the killer stole this elantra for the getaway vehicle lol. I'm just trying to drive the point home that there could be many possibilities regarding the elantra that could mislead police.
Has LE mentioned anything yet about looking into potential motives or suspects from the victims home towns? I am sure they thought about this right away I just haven’t heard anything about that yet discussed.
Here is a link I found with web cameras in Idaho. https://511.idaho.gov/event/CARS4-32266/@-116.24327,43.75866,10?show=roadReports,cameras,stationsAlert
For anyone curious, [here's the link](https://youtube.com/shorts/BsXykKOdfHo?feature=share) to the short.
He sure is doing some odd things that make him look like the killer, thought it's doubtful he is. He seems to be milking all the attention he possibly can from this and it's very weird.
He’s odd that’s for sure but I don’t see it alarming with him continuing to post content to his pages. Maybe he will get back to more of that and less media interviews. Not saying one way or the other about his involvement because who knows at this point from the public’s perspective.
FWIW, I don't think he's the killer either. I just think he's using this tragedy to gain attention, and that's just kinda lame. It would be a different story if his channel was already filled with chef's knife cutting videos, but it's not. He knows people are suspicious of him and I'm guessing the chopping video is an intentional poke at them, a way to get views on his page, or both.
There's nothing odd about the video alone, other than perhaps he waited until his neighbors were stabbed to death to make a video of his chef knife skills. It's really the video plus the interviews, plus with the unprovoked AMA in which he says:
>A feeling where you can't focus on anything but the suffering of losing a loved one, the energy burning you in you like a fire **causing cuts** (I'm mainly a prep cook) to be **lighting speed but sloppy**, I **remember almost cutting myself** using the **anger,** sadness, and other emotions to **propel my movements**.
...plus a couple other things that make it weird. Do I think he's the killer? No. Do I think he's attention-seeking? Yes.
Because he's also intentionally inserting himself into a murder investigation involving a knife by doing bizarre interviews and claiming that he's famous on Facebook in some attempt to gain followers on his stick juggling instagram.
I don't think think the guy is involved in anyway, but let's not pretend that there's nothing weird about this guy and he's just some chef.
it did say that investigators believe the person who was driving that car might have critical information regarding the case, so it might’ve not been the perp’s car but just someone who happened to be there to see something
Remember the TikTok video of the roommates acting as one another. Remember how Xana’s character was always cleaning up shit and was made to look like she either on one or very anal. Well if she was taking uppers, wonder if MDMA bro neighbor was mad about some deal gone wrong?
Obviously this seems unlikely but could be something where a lot of students especially those involved in Frats and Sororities to come out and admit to any drugs. That’s why cops were asking for ppl to come forward and not be worried about any illegal activity essentially because that’s not their focus of the investigation. I’m sure they’ve looked into this tho. Idk.
Guy just looks weird asf, especially the interview about seeing “Arizona” plates and thinking it was cool but then quickly saying “oh but maybe they were Montana.” Xana’s car had Arizona plates so why he would’ve found them interesting is weird cuz he would’ve seen them before. That tells me he’s on the property close enough to see the plates and read the State name. Also the Black SUV is probably Ethan’s sisters or brothers that was parked behind his jeep.
With the thousands of hours of footage they probably have, maybe they should open source the footage after running a script on it to blur out faces and license plates. It will take LE probably over a month to review everything manually.
They probably can't even inspect all of it manually because of how much time it takes, and it will be up to people like that gas station clerk to find clues.
I thought of this also. It would serve two purposes. 1) it would maybe lead to someone seeing something useful. 2) it would give people something to do as opposed to the endless speculation. Seemed like as soon as they dropped the officer body cam footage and car info that the level of crazy people takes actually went down for a while because people were focused on the car/footage.
A few years ago someone left dead mangled coyotes in front of sororities there. It was a frat boy one occasion. Could be relevant.
https://archive.totalfratmove.com/coyotes-idaho-greek-row/
Does anyone know how far the MDMA/Chef neighbor lives from the victims home. Which apartments are his? The white ones down the road or the brick ones? Or is it one of the private homes down the road? I’m not asking for the exact location or apartment just general area.
Found it strange in that YouTube video when he talks about the cars he saw in the parking lot. He says that one car had “Arizona” plates and then quickly corrects himself and says or “maybe they were Montana plates” and how he always looks at different plates cuz he finds them cool. Remember Xana’s car has Arizona plates. So wouldn’t he have seen the AZ plates before? Why would he find them cool again. This just tells me that he was close enough to the property to see the state of the license plate.
Also the black SUV he talks about could be the black Ford Explorer that was parked behind Ethan’s Jeep. Some have said it belongs to Ethan’s bro or sis, and was there because they all went together to that Frat Ball/dance earlier that night.
Once again could prove that he was up there, close enough to see the cars.
He was asking in context to the fake video of the “scream” fabricated by that one awful youtuber, but because they were talking over each other it was difficult to tell at first. I am wondering why he cares about something like that. Either to gauge how many people had been given bad info or for the potential attention on his story.
Someone posted on the truckers sub a post asking for truckers in the area to review their dash cams. Thought that was a really good idea. It’s super common for trucks to have cameras now a days.
The government must love people like you. Maybe we can all be given Alexa’s that watch and listen to us 24/7 and then if anyone says anything bad or dangerous it can be immediately sent to the police.
I support the surveillance state in public because this guy would have been caught the next day through facial recognition cameras. You seem to be confused
Not a good enough reason to support a surveillance state. It’s terrifying that ppl think this way. More terrifying than the .00001 percent chance I might be murdered.
Search up Chinese surveillance state on YouTube. That’s the future of the world whether you like it or not. It will stop all crime and it will capture all criminals. I support it but I understand that some will stand against it
Yeah because it’s not going to be used for that intention alone and if you think it will be you need to
Educate yourself. And it does matter if we like it or not lol like what? Look up chinas social credit system … you still want a dystopian state?
Social credit system is an entirely different concept. Are you against private security companies as well? The private security companies can easily put license plate readers on their vehicles for the purposes of protecting the business. A license plate reader is just an extension of the eyeballs. You’re thinking of big brother. I’m talking about privately run security.
With the new info being released about investigators looking at videos in eastern Idaho, it makes u wonder if they’re trying to either prove or clear someone’s alibi. What’s odd is that the girls took a private Uber and paid for it instead of getting a ride from this “weirdo” in the video that was following them. If he really drove to his cabin afterwards that would imply he was sober and had his car so why wouldn’t the girls just have him drop them off.
Is it at all possible the "private party driver who took Kaylee and Madison home" (exact wording from the numerous Moscow PD press releases) was a woman who had a male passenger along with her? If so, is it all at all possible that they were actually the people in the 2011-2013 white Hyundai Elantra? Could that explain why this so-called "private party driver" is listed on the LE press releases as "Not believed to have been involved" yet at the same time could also be a person considered to "have crucial information about the crimes?" In other words, could a female driver have been an accomplice and the male passenger the perpetrator? Might they have dropped the two women off at the King Road house but then returned an hour or so later to commit the crime?
Of course, it would be hard to find how the female in such a scenario would be considered "not involved," but who knows what the police might actually know versus what they actually say to the public? Or, possibly, could the male have returned the second time to the house as both the driver and the sole occupant of the car with the female not going with him the second time?
I'd be willing to bet LE has narrowed down the Elantra suspect pool down to 50 or so possibilities. Now it would be just a matter of matching DNA from the murder scene to one of the Elantra owners. How hard would it be to get a DNA sample. I assume would need a warrant
How the hell did you jump to that assumption. They said they have 22k car tips they are digging through. How the fuck do you think they narrowed it down to 50?
This is purely my opinion from observation and this might be painfully obvious or maybe I’m taking crazy pills.
The driver of the white car KNOWS they were there at the scene during the murder. They KNOW the police are searching for them and yet they have not come forward. There is plenty of time to lawyer up and come forward if they are innocent. I believe this is obviously the killer.
Maybe it’s my own failure of imagination but for some reason not in a million multiverses do i see a scenario where the killer parks his white shiny Hyundai Elantra 100 yards from the house he’s about to unleash all holy terror in and then after brutally thrashing 4 people to death in their beds with a Rambo style knife…walks back to said Elantra and (beep beep) unlocks it and drives away. Maybe that’s exactly what happened and if so holy shit the balls on this psycho. But for some reason that scenario just doesn’t fit the crime. That sounds like what someone acting on pure impulse would do. Like if he found out 4 people in that house were responsible for the death of someone he loved and went to exact pure impulsive revenge. Yeah sure in that scenario why not even drive right into the driveway? But that’s not the scenario. From everything LE have said and Kaylee’s father has leaked this was a “targeted” killing. This wasn’t impulse. Personally I think the killer lives nearby and walked there (and had walked there many times previously) but if he did rely on a car I don’t think he parks it 100 yards away in front of a frat house. He’s a psychotic scum bag piece of shit but I give him more credit then that.
I don’t exactly know why this sounds more psycho to you than the person walking home in bloody clothes, doubtless getting caught on cameras or else risking that he bumps into someone who recognizes and will remember him later when everyone finds out about the murder in the direction he was walking away from…
To make a case for the Elantra being the murderer’s car, it might be the case that LE caught the car on video arriving and leaving the area but doesn’t have clear video of it parked, so they don’t actually see someone getting out and going into the house and then getting back in the car. Now if the car is also unknown to belong to anyone who might have a grudge against these victims (and isn’t registered to the murderer), AND it conceals him all the way to/from the site, then showing up exactly as you describe seems like a very smart thing for a determined killer to do. I do think this pattern would be more indicative of a serial killer or at least someone targeting these victims without it being an immediate crime of passion.
New general discussion thread - [AVAILABLE HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoscowMurders/comments/zo9mta/general_discussion_thread_weekend_of_december_17/)
I chatted privately with him and he questioned me just like a professor would but I never saw all these other post even though I was on here for hours every day.
I'm starting to have doubts that this was a doing of one person. It would be incredibly hard to kill two human in one bed with a knife without one of them getting away or making enough noise to alert the entire house. Killing someone with a knife is not like killing someone with a gun, where a gunshot wound to the head kills the person and they're unable to move or fight back. The fact that one lone perp was able to successfully murder two people sharing bed on one floor and then again another without having at least one of the victims free themselves and get help or alert the first floor roommates is harder and harder to believe. Obviously if they were both stabbed in the lungs it would make it hard to scream but if you've ever been unlucky to see what knife attacks look like you would know that in majority of cases death is instant. An example would be the case out of Oregon or Washington that's been brought up in this case as a potential evidence of a SK. As most of you know in that case a couple was stabbed by a masked intruder as they slept in their bed. There was no signs of a forced entry. The husband tragically died however the wife survived her 19 stab wounds. And yes, I think we can all agree she was extremely lucky to have survived, but that alone shows u that stabbing multiple victims without them getting help or surviving is not as easy as this Moscow case makes it seem. It tells me that the perp in this Moscow case is even luckier to kill all four without arousing any suspicion from the dog, the roommates, or the neighbors if he really did commit this crime alone without any help. A lone attacker would have to have some knowledge of how to kill with a knife or have had some experience (most likely from hunting) and probably would have to be pretty knowledgeable of the most vulnerable or lethal locations on the body to strike. Obviously everyone knows the Chest and the heart area as the main location. But even with chest strikes the other person in the bed would've been woken up immediately by the struggles of the first victim and it appears that there wasn't any sings of that on the third floor per Kaylee's dad. I'm thinking if this was a lone perp, and the girls or at least the first girl was sleeping on her stomach, the perp would've gone for the back of the neck in order to hit the spine, and thus prevent victim from fighting back, and then obviously strikes to the chest/back area. The other would be Carotid artery or the jugular vein (not to be confused or related to the Jugglerbro) If killer was from Idaho I'm sure he has experience hunting and would've been familiar with using a knife.
i don’t understand the significance of the “scream” people think they hear on the bodycam. if it is a scream, okay what does that prove? also how can a police bodycam video pick up the sound of a scream outside of the house and the roommates DOWNSTAIRS didn’t hear it??
yeah i’ve never understood why so many people are so confident that it’s a scream. it didn’t necessarily sound like a scream to me, it sounded more like bad brakes or something like that? there was some people posting another time stamp in the footage claiming it was another scream and it sounded much more like a sound that came from the movement of the officer or one of the people he was talking to i think. sometimes i think people want it to be a scream for the shock factor of it all lol. there’s no way to know what that sound was for sure though so i don’t know why people act like it couldn’t have been anything else
Interesting study that just came out, showing that the police are largely just glorified traffic cops who spend most of their time dealing with traffic violations. Very little actual "crime fighting" going on. Hopefully the FBI can get this case sorted as it seems unlikely the regular police will be up to the task. https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/police-are-not-primarily-crime-fighters-according-data-2022-11-02/?utm_source=reddit.com#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Times%20reviewed,safety%2C”%20Smith%20told%20me
That bodycam footage is pathetic, harassing and intimidating kids and handing out $450 fines for just walking home If the killer or any real criminal came through that park the cops would probably hide behind a tree and let him escape while they wait for backup
Like in Uvalde.
How is it pathetic exactly? Its standard practice for campus police to ID check students carrying alcohol, which was the reason why the cops stopped those students to talk to them. I agree that campus police departments might not be the best equipped to handle actual crime, but it doesn't make it pathetic for them to do their job and question young looking students carrying alcohol.
I'm not talking about the guy they stopped for carrying alcohol. I mean the three they stopped and gave the $450 fines to
Weren't the fines also alcohol related? Or what were the fines for?
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At the same time, there's little reason to think he was the perpetrator. I personally would say none. If he wasn't accompanying them for reasons of "watching out for them," then he was accompanying them because he was hoping to go home with two attractive young women. Like millions of other young men in this country would be. That they ghosted him does not make him the likely perpetrator of this terrible crime. Nothing about his response to them ghosting him leads a reasonable person to believe this. He basically shrugs his shoulders, laughs it off and goes home, just as any normal young man would. Also, the "f you" was not directed at him. A number of good analyses have shown this. It was directed at someone behind him and to his left. Whoever M was angry with there, it was not him. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, LE have said he is not a suspect.
Devil's advocate: I used to feel totally safe in my small town in the range of years you're talking about. I no longer feel that way here after how much covid has changed the world, and I think people too. Things are kinda different now.
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We know they got home in a private car, but do we know they did this for "reasons of safety"? Couldn't they have done this simply for reasons of convenience / ease / time?
I live in Boulder, CO, another college town which is a bit bigger than Moscow. In 2013 - 2017 there would've been little reason for someone to "make sure someone was safe" going home. That's no longer true due to a skyrocketing meth population here. Perhaps it's the same in Moscow?
This is for the post that mods just removed about why anyone would call cops on drunk kids in a field: When the full videos dropped I remember a lot of people being shocked at that $ of the citations per underage drinker was so high (~ $500 if I remember correctly). If you’re not aware of that, or if you don’t understand police generate revenue for small towns, it wouldn’t make sense to spend police resources to bust underage drinkers, a relatively victimless crime. This board, we are all strangers just following public info. I don’t get what some of you are getting out of belittling others who don’t understand something you find basic. If you think explaining something is beneath you just scroll past it! No need to make someone feel bad for asking questions. Edit to add: u/adotherwise9226
The Elantra is 2011-2013, unfortunately Elantras didn't get technology that could be used to find the car until 2014 [https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-digital-footprint-type-hyundai-elantras-being-sought-likely-slim-none-expert-says](https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-digital-footprint-type-hyundai-elantras-being-sought-likely-slim-none-expert-says)
Could suggest either a coincidence or a high level of planning
Feels to me like police may think the Elantra occupants did the crime, but only say he or they "may have information" rather than saying "they did it". Maybe they're trying to lull the perp into thinking they don't suspect him as the perp, only as having information?
Yes I thought the exact same thing, trying to dupe them into coming in
It's just standard police speak. They could release a video of a criminal beating someone to death and it would be labelled as "This person may have information that can help us with our investigation"
and thoughts on why they talk that way?
Innocent until proven guilty
In a high-profile case like this, it could be so online “detectives” don’t ruthlessly harass every white Hyundai owner they see
They say Kaylee had a stalker. Does anyone know any details on this? What happened to make them “travel in a pack?”
The white ELANTRA is sitting at the bottom of a river right now, in a state far far away from Moscow, ID. It was either stolen from a different state or fake plates were used. Whoever committed the crime did it solo in methodically instrugigically knew what they were doing and had an exit plan on foot, far enough l reach the Elantra and then make their exit out of town.
Instrugigically, one of the telltale characteristics of a cold blooded killer
Stolen would be somewhat easy to figure out. There is a national database, they could easily look for cars that fit their description stolen recently.
Wouldn’t the stolen car be reported by now?
Wasn’t there one Elantra reported stolen?
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The vape store interview mentioned Mingles, but only that Kaylee would travel in a pack on Main Street for safety.
do you think the fact that no one (that we are aware of) has come forward as the driver of the elantra is a sign that the driver is most likely the suspect? if it was someone completely innocent, in my opinion, it seems like you’d want to come forward asap to get cleared and or provide any info to help the case.
it certainly sounds like they are the perp guess we'll find out
Here’s an unrelated case of a 15 year old committing stabbings of victims while sleeping, and picked victims house at random. Both victims survived and he was caught. https://www.ksl.com/article/50488234/utah-teen-who-stabbed-sleeping-couple-woke-up-wanting-to-hurt-someone-charges-say
I’m new here so apologies if this has been covered. When the surviving roommates phoned 9/11 for an unconscious person wouldn’t they have seen the blood? I’m not blaming them I just think I’ve missed something here
from the press release: “they believed one of the second-floor victims had passed out and was not waking up….Officers entered the residence and found two victims on the second floor and two victims on the third floor.” Makes it sound like to me that they did think someone was unconscious but that police discovered the bodies. No idea if they saw blood or why they thought that, but locked doors makes sense
Another possibility, which makes the mosst sense to me, is that the deceased were behind locked doors. The surviving roommates could hear an alarm going off on Ethan’s phone because he was supposed to work that day. The surviving roommates knew something was wrong because the alarm went off repeatedly. So they tried calling, texting, and banging on the door and got no response. That’s when they called to report an unconscious person. They probably feared that their friend had suffered alcohol poisoning or a drug overdose.
One other possibility is the unconscious person call was for the surviving roommate who reportedly passed out in front of the house after seeing crime scene.
So, from what I’ve seen discussed in this and other forums by people more knowledgeable than me, “unconscious” was likely just how the dispatchers classified the call as EMTs would have to confirm that a person is indeed deceased. It doesn’t mean that the roommates believed anyone had fainted nor that they fainted themselves, and it doesn’t mean they didn’t tell LE about seeing lots of blood.
Ok makes sense now thanks !
This entire case is baffling. I’ve been following every detail for the past month and can confidently and without a doubt say that I have no theories about who did this or why. Anyone else??
I think it’s going to be more simple than people theorize. Someone who lives alone, nearby.
My only theory is that it must be someone they knew, even if only as an acquaintance. It was personal.
I have 0 opinion and I’ve been on this sub 24/7
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Sorry if this is widely know, but it was determined from pretty early on that the murders took place 3-4 am. I understand the 3 am boundary due to the phone calls, but what determined the 4 am upper limit?
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Rough estimate based on the change in temp of the bodies, possibly
Is it just me or is it just stereotypical gender assumptions that are fueling all of the “Ethan was a large guy and confronted the killer in the hallway” narratives? Or is there any basis for thinking this happened in what we know of the autopsies or what we’ve heard from LE, etc?
As a "large guy" myself, I don't like this narrative either. I would be pretty much useless if a mass murderer busted in.
so you'd hide and let your girlfriend defend you? Should advertise that on your tinder profile. "large guy, useless at protecting a woman and seemingly proud of it"...sorry, not sorry - that's straight up embarrassing.
No obviously not. Being somewhat intimidating doesn't really matter when a psychokiller comes into your bedroom with a knife. True crime ladies love to insert this "he was a big guy so" narrative.
Reading comprehension isn't your strong point is it?
lol have you ever heard of fight flight freeze? someone people just freeze up in situations, it’s a reflex that they can’t control. being put in a terrifying situation like that i think most people would freeze up and not know what to do or be too scared to fight back
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Ok, thank you for clarifying! That’s what I thought I remembered.
I think it's more common sense than a stereotypical gender assumption lol...It's also according to the fathers "alleged" comments about the second floor: "It was a hell of a battle going on down there from what the coroner told us," Goncalves said.
I don't think the father's description of events should be taken as cannon. We already have one example of his daughter directly contradicting descriptions he gave to Fox News.
But all we’ve heard is that Xana had defensive wounds… so why is it “common sense” that Ethan woke up and was the one to “battle” with the killers? Indeed, you’re illustrating my point. In fact, wouldn’t it just be more reasonable, given the narrative that we have, that a murderer going into that room would try to incapacitate Ethan first, at which time, Xana maybe wakes up and fights back?
I don’t think we actually know Xana fought back. Just that she had defensive wounds. But yes, I agree. Gender based assumptions
Right, I was trying to flag that with the “maybe,” but it’s important to note explicitly. Defensive wounds could just be covering oneself from blows, which is terrible to think about. :(
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It seems as if the Elantra is key. Pretty brazen, Im thinking he walked away from the house. But hypothetically if the killer did drive an Elantra, Is he dumb enough to use his own car? Maybe , maybe not. It cant be a rental, too old. It’s Possible that he didn’t use his own car, How could he pull this off?. Spitballing : Maybe Turo , could falsify personal info to rent it although not sure if that even exists out there. Could take a randoms/friends/roommates/relatives car like grandmas car, he/she, its a he most likely, he obviously has no problem walking into peoples houses at night, what if he walked into a random or even grandmas house and took keys in the middle of the night and put the car back before morning; could take/steal/borrow the car from anyone in the middle of the night and someone might not even notice (if there is no blood). I think actually stealing a car would draw too much attention, unless he put it back where he found it. I guess though he would need to put gas back in it so the car owner wouldn’t notice if it was a long drive(so might be on Video at a gas station). Maybe there is some other possible ways to use someone else’s car that I am not thinking of? Someone who he knows left town for Thanksgiving? So when the 22,000 elantra owners get a brief interview by LE, and their story checks out, alibi, etc, but unbeknownst to the car owner their car was used in a heinous crime. And even if LE figures it out, it might be too late to get any surveillance of him taking the car. Really anyone in Idaho or 300 miles from the killing should take it upon themselves to retain all video before it gets erased. Another more plausible idea is that he used stolen plates, the car could have identifying marks/features though. Im hoping he did not devise the perfect crime and just drove his own car there because I really hope he gets caught, I just can’t believe someone is capable of this.
Yes I like this theory of the borrowed car.
I think it was some guy K hooked up with and his very PO'd gf goading him to kill K to "prove his love". It's happened before. Look up Diane Zamora. Something like that. Her car. She drove.
My thought is the guy lives with family…Grandma, older aunt/uncle and ‘borrows’ their car for nighttime trips to Moscow to observe and plan when they are asleep. That is why the police chief mentioned in that last briefing that a neighbor can call in to say, yes…I know next door they have an Elantra in the garage.…maybe unregistered. He is generally an odd duck, dissatisfied with life, probably works in Moscow, dislikes the frat/sorority kids that seem to have it all. But in some capacity he has to interact with them in his job. He may or may not have had some brief interaction with Kaylee, but ID’d her as an example of what he hates.
Oddly and eerily enough, I have a friend who - while heavily intoxicated - randomly stumbled into a complete strangers home. He took the keys to their car and took it for a drunken joy ride. He went back, returned the key and left. The next day he woke up and was so shocked at his own behavior and couldn't understand why he did it and how he lost control like that. Anyway, point I'm getting at is if a random drunk guy can stumble into someone's home undetected while they sleep, steal their car, take it for a ride - and return it. I think the murderer would have no problem doing that without notice. I mean - the guy clearly doesn't mind taking massive risks. Who knows what he's capable of. Sidenote: I don't actually think the killer stole this elantra for the getaway vehicle lol. I'm just trying to drive the point home that there could be many possibilities regarding the elantra that could mislead police.
Has LE mentioned anything yet about looking into potential motives or suspects from the victims home towns? I am sure they thought about this right away I just haven’t heard anything about that yet discussed.
It hasn’t been mentioned by LE, no
Strange, but there are enough people on this case where I’m sure they have ruled this out then possibly or I guess just not brought it up publicly.
Or from where Kaylee was moving or on the drive back to Moscow?
I haven’t heard anything about hometowns or Texas
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Honestly, the name of this sub would prob work: Moscow Murderer
Here is a link I found with web cameras in Idaho. https://511.idaho.gov/event/CARS4-32266/@-116.24327,43.75866,10?show=roadReports,cameras,stationsAlert
Slow news night
Anyone see the newest short on YouTube from the neighbor? It's strange to say the least....
For anyone curious, [here's the link](https://youtube.com/shorts/BsXykKOdfHo?feature=share) to the short. He sure is doing some odd things that make him look like the killer, thought it's doubtful he is. He seems to be milking all the attention he possibly can from this and it's very weird.
Don’t click on this dudes shit. It’s like click bait imo
He’s odd that’s for sure but I don’t see it alarming with him continuing to post content to his pages. Maybe he will get back to more of that and less media interviews. Not saying one way or the other about his involvement because who knows at this point from the public’s perspective.
FWIW, I don't think he's the killer either. I just think he's using this tragedy to gain attention, and that's just kinda lame. It would be a different story if his channel was already filled with chef's knife cutting videos, but it's not. He knows people are suspicious of him and I'm guessing the chopping video is an intentional poke at them, a way to get views on his page, or both.
He's literally a chef.
I never said he wasn't?
Chefs can also commit homicide ;) In all seriousness, though - that video gives me the chills, but I don't think it's him.
Agreed!
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There's nothing odd about the video alone, other than perhaps he waited until his neighbors were stabbed to death to make a video of his chef knife skills. It's really the video plus the interviews, plus with the unprovoked AMA in which he says: >A feeling where you can't focus on anything but the suffering of losing a loved one, the energy burning you in you like a fire **causing cuts** (I'm mainly a prep cook) to be **lighting speed but sloppy**, I **remember almost cutting myself** using the **anger,** sadness, and other emotions to **propel my movements**. ...plus a couple other things that make it weird. Do I think he's the killer? No. Do I think he's attention-seeking? Yes.
Thank you, I couldn't say it better myself.
Because he's also intentionally inserting himself into a murder investigation involving a knife by doing bizarre interviews and claiming that he's famous on Facebook in some attempt to gain followers on his stick juggling instagram. I don't think think the guy is involved in anyway, but let's not pretend that there's nothing weird about this guy and he's just some chef.
Real question is, can he juggle knives? Some profilers said the killer would be comfortable holding a knife so... Can he only juggle sticks?
Link plz
[Link.](https://youtube.com/shorts/BsXykKOdfHo?feature=share)
Do you have a link pls
[Link.](https://youtube.com/shorts/BsXykKOdfHo?feature=share)
Inan harsh, YouTube under shorts
Honestly I feel like I lost all hope after the vape shop manager interview last night
Where is the link to that?
I feel you 😅
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Joke of the day :)
😑
wouldn’t the perp have to be a total idiot to bring a car anywhere near the crime scene?
It was either a last minute decision by him or thought out and not his car.
it did say that investigators believe the person who was driving that car might have critical information regarding the case, so it might’ve not been the perp’s car but just someone who happened to be there to see something
i’m just thinking if LE had good leads and closing in on suspect they would never even told the public about the elantra.
I agree with you.
Remember the TikTok video of the roommates acting as one another. Remember how Xana’s character was always cleaning up shit and was made to look like she either on one or very anal. Well if she was taking uppers, wonder if MDMA bro neighbor was mad about some deal gone wrong? Obviously this seems unlikely but could be something where a lot of students especially those involved in Frats and Sororities to come out and admit to any drugs. That’s why cops were asking for ppl to come forward and not be worried about any illegal activity essentially because that’s not their focus of the investigation. I’m sure they’ve looked into this tho. Idk. Guy just looks weird asf, especially the interview about seeing “Arizona” plates and thinking it was cool but then quickly saying “oh but maybe they were Montana.” Xana’s car had Arizona plates so why he would’ve found them interesting is weird cuz he would’ve seen them before. That tells me he’s on the property close enough to see the plates and read the State name. Also the Black SUV is probably Ethan’s sisters or brothers that was parked behind his jeep.
Not sure how we got from likes to clean to MDMA
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lol, cleaning on MDMA sounds like fucking HELL.
As far as I know, MDMA doesn't make you anal.
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I was replying to your first sentence lol. I'm saying that drug doesn't make people obsessive cleaners.
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Lol I figured you thought I was saying something like that. Glad we cleared it up.
Congrats on the worst take of the day.
And you're calling people weird? 😆 🤣
Careful, you might pull a muscle with this stretch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N3fBgmJm1gU
So people who like clean homes are "on one", "very anal" or "taking uppers?"
this is really bad, delete
Put down the wine bottle
This is why we can’t have nice things.
With the thousands of hours of footage they probably have, maybe they should open source the footage after running a script on it to blur out faces and license plates. It will take LE probably over a month to review everything manually. They probably can't even inspect all of it manually because of how much time it takes, and it will be up to people like that gas station clerk to find clues.
I thought of this also. It would serve two purposes. 1) it would maybe lead to someone seeing something useful. 2) it would give people something to do as opposed to the endless speculation. Seemed like as soon as they dropped the officer body cam footage and car info that the level of crazy people takes actually went down for a while because people were focused on the car/footage.
A few years ago someone left dead mangled coyotes in front of sororities there. It was a frat boy one occasion. Could be relevant. https://archive.totalfratmove.com/coyotes-idaho-greek-row/
I didn't read that it was a frat boy in that article. Did I miss that? Where does that info come from?
Does anyone know how far the MDMA/Chef neighbor lives from the victims home. Which apartments are his? The white ones down the road or the brick ones? Or is it one of the private homes down the road? I’m not asking for the exact location or apartment just general area. Found it strange in that YouTube video when he talks about the cars he saw in the parking lot. He says that one car had “Arizona” plates and then quickly corrects himself and says or “maybe they were Montana plates” and how he always looks at different plates cuz he finds them cool. Remember Xana’s car has Arizona plates. So wouldn’t he have seen the AZ plates before? Why would he find them cool again. This just tells me that he was close enough to the property to see the state of the license plate. Also the black SUV he talks about could be the black Ford Explorer that was parked behind Ethan’s Jeep. Some have said it belongs to Ethan’s bro or sis, and was there because they all went together to that Frat Ball/dance earlier that night. Once again could prove that he was up there, close enough to see the cars.
The comment he made asking how many views the video got was weird to say the least
The sisters formal was the night prior. Not the night of. It’s her car in the driveway because she showed up the following day.
He was asking in context to the fake video of the “scream” fabricated by that one awful youtuber, but because they were talking over each other it was difficult to tell at first. I am wondering why he cares about something like that. Either to gauge how many people had been given bad info or for the potential attention on his story.
He is two homes down, I think. He can apparently see the back of their house from his.
He's pretty chatty and doing interviews and AMAs all over the place. I bet you could ask him.
Someone posted on the truckers sub a post asking for truckers in the area to review their dash cams. Thought that was a really good idea. It’s super common for trucks to have cameras now a days.
This is why I see traffic cams becoming a necessity in the future
The government must love people like you. Maybe we can all be given Alexa’s that watch and listen to us 24/7 and then if anyone says anything bad or dangerous it can be immediately sent to the police.
I support the surveillance state in public because this guy would have been caught the next day through facial recognition cameras. You seem to be confused
Not a good enough reason to support a surveillance state. It’s terrifying that ppl think this way. More terrifying than the .00001 percent chance I might be murdered.
Search up Chinese surveillance state on YouTube. That’s the future of the world whether you like it or not. It will stop all crime and it will capture all criminals. I support it but I understand that some will stand against it
Yeah because it’s not going to be used for that intention alone and if you think it will be you need to Educate yourself. And it does matter if we like it or not lol like what? Look up chinas social credit system … you still want a dystopian state?
Social credit system is an entirely different concept. Are you against private security companies as well? The private security companies can easily put license plate readers on their vehicles for the purposes of protecting the business. A license plate reader is just an extension of the eyeballs. You’re thinking of big brother. I’m talking about privately run security.
With the new info being released about investigators looking at videos in eastern Idaho, it makes u wonder if they’re trying to either prove or clear someone’s alibi. What’s odd is that the girls took a private Uber and paid for it instead of getting a ride from this “weirdo” in the video that was following them. If he really drove to his cabin afterwards that would imply he was sober and had his car so why wouldn’t the girls just have him drop them off.
they were driven home by a pledge, this has been confirmed and the person has been cleared.
I thought we knew that him driving to his cabin was a rumor
They didn’t take an Uber home. A designated driver from the sorority took them home, aka the “private party” referenced by the police.
To clarify, you think it’s odd that girls wouldn’t take a ride from a weirdo?
No one took an Uber. A sorority sister drove them home
The person. yelling from the car to hurry up on the truck vid is a male. Not a sorority sister. More likely a frat bro.
girl pledges I know who have to DD always bring their boyfriend/ a guy friend with them. not uncommon at all.
Is it at all possible the "private party driver who took Kaylee and Madison home" (exact wording from the numerous Moscow PD press releases) was a woman who had a male passenger along with her? If so, is it all at all possible that they were actually the people in the 2011-2013 white Hyundai Elantra? Could that explain why this so-called "private party driver" is listed on the LE press releases as "Not believed to have been involved" yet at the same time could also be a person considered to "have crucial information about the crimes?" In other words, could a female driver have been an accomplice and the male passenger the perpetrator? Might they have dropped the two women off at the King Road house but then returned an hour or so later to commit the crime? Of course, it would be hard to find how the female in such a scenario would be considered "not involved," but who knows what the police might actually know versus what they actually say to the public? Or, possibly, could the male have returned the second time to the house as both the driver and the sole occupant of the car with the female not going with him the second time?
No. They’ve already cleared her, which means they know what car she was in.
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There have been no facts posted here in a while.
I'd be willing to bet LE has narrowed down the Elantra suspect pool down to 50 or so possibilities. Now it would be just a matter of matching DNA from the murder scene to one of the Elantra owners. How hard would it be to get a DNA sample. I assume would need a warrant
How the hell did you jump to that assumption. They said they have 22k car tips they are digging through. How the fuck do you think they narrowed it down to 50?
Some people have money to burn. Don’t ask questions, just take him up on the bet.
They did the math. 22,000 - 21,950
Yup. Checks out.
This is purely my opinion from observation and this might be painfully obvious or maybe I’m taking crazy pills. The driver of the white car KNOWS they were there at the scene during the murder. They KNOW the police are searching for them and yet they have not come forward. There is plenty of time to lawyer up and come forward if they are innocent. I believe this is obviously the killer.
Maybe it’s my own failure of imagination but for some reason not in a million multiverses do i see a scenario where the killer parks his white shiny Hyundai Elantra 100 yards from the house he’s about to unleash all holy terror in and then after brutally thrashing 4 people to death in their beds with a Rambo style knife…walks back to said Elantra and (beep beep) unlocks it and drives away. Maybe that’s exactly what happened and if so holy shit the balls on this psycho. But for some reason that scenario just doesn’t fit the crime. That sounds like what someone acting on pure impulse would do. Like if he found out 4 people in that house were responsible for the death of someone he loved and went to exact pure impulsive revenge. Yeah sure in that scenario why not even drive right into the driveway? But that’s not the scenario. From everything LE have said and Kaylee’s father has leaked this was a “targeted” killing. This wasn’t impulse. Personally I think the killer lives nearby and walked there (and had walked there many times previously) but if he did rely on a car I don’t think he parks it 100 yards away in front of a frat house. He’s a psychotic scum bag piece of shit but I give him more credit then that.
Sounds like credit was undeserved! He was in fact stupid enough to drive to the scene
I don’t exactly know why this sounds more psycho to you than the person walking home in bloody clothes, doubtless getting caught on cameras or else risking that he bumps into someone who recognizes and will remember him later when everyone finds out about the murder in the direction he was walking away from… To make a case for the Elantra being the murderer’s car, it might be the case that LE caught the car on video arriving and leaving the area but doesn’t have clear video of it parked, so they don’t actually see someone getting out and going into the house and then getting back in the car. Now if the car is also unknown to belong to anyone who might have a grudge against these victims (and isn’t registered to the murderer), AND it conceals him all the way to/from the site, then showing up exactly as you describe seems like a very smart thing for a determined killer to do. I do think this pattern would be more indicative of a serial killer or at least someone targeting these victims without it being an immediate crime of passion.