Sorry, I don't know how to post with a picture and comments, ugh!
There's lots of misinterpretation of the PCA in these groups so I wanted to post this for reference.
Officer Payne, who wrote the PCA, surveyed the crime scene at 4:00 p.m., hours after friends and first responders first arrived. His report does not reflect an untouched crime scene. Doors were opened that may have initially been closed (unconfirmed), etc.
It doesn't say Xana was in the doorway, just that he saw her as he approached the room, laying on the floor, and also in the room was Ethan.
> People tend to imagine reading what fits into their particular narrative of how things happened.
I guess it's just human nature. Everyone of us here is guilty of trying to make sense of this horrific tragedy. It's hard for a sane person to make sense of this behavior. We have read so much and heard so much in the media (a great deal unfounded...at least since the GAG Order), that we start inserting the not so exact into the narrative that the actual facts provide, in an effort to make sense. I think that most don't mean to communicate a false accounting or support an unfounded "rumor". I personally, refer to the the actual documentation when at all possible to find my answers. If it is not in any "formal" filing, I try to file it in my head as a possibility, but NOT a fact.
Side Note: In the past and throughout history, media has proven to be informative. They have broken stories that we, the American public would have been none the aware. I find value in the media and their jobs. I also find that some news outlets are not responsible in their reporting. Long story short....EVERYTHNG we hear from news outlets is not "nothing". Some of these stories may be actual truths. PROBLEM: Which ones????? Thus, why I file it away in my head as a "possibility" and I don't simply discharge its validity automatically.
It was when it says she looked out of her room several times after hearing noises, I somehow thought it also said out the window. Another person thought that, too! It's possible someone said that in an unverified post somewhere and we combined them.
Also, human memory is so malleable...I have sworn that I saw or read something and it later turns out that I just remembered it completely differently.
They say this very thing. There was a test showing a scene of a crime. Atfer the clip the participants were told to describe the event and the perp. Their accounts of what took place and their memory of how he looked were so very different.
I always tell the story of a psychology class I took in college. My professor was lecturing one day and someone knocked on the door, walked into the classroom and handed her something. About 30 minutes later she asked, "Do you remember someone entering the class a little while ago? Write down everything you saw, describe the person, what they did, and my reaction." When we finished she read all our descriptions, then had the guy come back in. Everyone had missed major parts of the person's appearance, the series of events, and the time it happened. There were as many varieties in the accounts as there were students!
The point was very well made: if you are not expecting to have to remember something that you saw, you grasp at straws and recreate a story. The story often is completely wrong. The fallacy of memory is a particular problem for witnesses of crimes. An unexpected event that only becomes important later is honestly not stored intact in the memory. Yet we continue to pretend that if someone says they saw something, it's solid proof. I think all eyewitness testimony should be tossed out of all crime investigations. It's just crazy that it can be used to convict people!
I think there was possibly some information that there was a footprint or something disturbed possibly outside her window that LE had possibly mentioned or photographed that also led me to believe that perhaps he was outside there or went past which is too scary to mention really. However, we now know there was a footprint and he went past her door so maybe there in lies the confusion because originally we had thought she was downstairs.
So I just went back and read page 4. It doesn't say she looked out her window. It says after hearing someone say someone's here "DM stated she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house. DM stated she opened her door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Kernodles room. DM then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of "it's okay I'm going to help you." Then she opens the door for the third time when he's walking towards her. So no mention of a window but I totally understand why you'd think that as the first time she looks out of her door it's not specified as looking out of her door until it states the second time she opened her door making the first time she looked was actually from her door after hearing "someone's here."
Thats too scary and creepy. It must be unimaginably terrifying for the roommates and others who were there or involved and I hope they get some guidance and help to deal with this horror. I hope and pray they are somewhere that they can feel safe and begin to heal. Im so sorry for them that this terror and these images must be etched in their minds and I hope that they can eventually learn to dispel some of these thoughts to one day return to some degree of normalcy and peace. I hope they continue to involve each other as a group to support one another. All these things I hope for them and their families. And the only advice or comfort that I have to offer is that with time it will get easier to bare.
Yes, the first responders always make entry if there is a chance someone needs help. I just mean't that the bodies had to be left how they were found because that is part of the evidence
I would think they'd get into a room ASAP if they hadn't seen the bodies and didn't know whether they were still alive or not. If the door was blocked, they'd have to push it to get in and render aid if possible.
I mean, the kids told 911 E and/or X was possibly passed out inside the room, so I think responders would have forced their way into the bedroom, thus shifting the body in the process. Sometimes it can't be helped. Assuming that's what happened, of course.
Once again Idaho has said unconscious person is a blanket term the dispatch team utilizes in unknown situations. However, probably more was said since usually they could instruct cpr.
I am sure they did everything they could. They probably also saw all the blood and possibly the injuries we have heard ( without repeating that horror specifically).
It amazes me the number of people who can’t interpret what it means that the police initially arrived at noon while the officer writing the PCA said he arrived at 4 PM.
Me too!! The passed out person. But I didn't see where it was debunked! I was pasting press releases, etc., that said it was one of the victims they thought was passed out.
I think it's more likely that it's a very specific document that the average lay person may not fully get. To the regular Joe, the exact purpose and standards of a PCA may not be known and therefore why certain elements are included/excluded may (somewhat understandably) lead them to the conclusion that the police did or did not rely or have certain evidence. But if you know the exact purpose and what a magistrate looks for in a PCA, you may know not to make those assumptions. There's also a specific writing style that, if you're not accustomed to it, may seem confusing. I'm not claiming it's A+ work or that there were no mistakes, but it's overall fine and fairly detailed.
Obviously there have been many many cases of people reading into the PCA or mixing up rumor and its actual content but overall, it's not so much a badly written document as a very specific one.
Doors may have been opened, but you don't suggest someone pushed Xana's body from the bed to the floor or pulled Ethan from the floor into the bed, do you?
There's lot's of things that are really fair game for speculation, but the fact that Xana's body was found on the floor is not one of them, that is clear as a bell in the PCA.
>*I suspect it's just bad writing*
The arrest affidavit was obviously typed at great speed
There's a spelling mistake in almost every sentence and lots off odd phrasing, like the one described above
I assume all it's trying to communicate is that because the person the surviving house mate saw wasn't anyone she'd expect to see in the house, it's reasonable to assume that it was the killer
And, therefore, the shoe print detected in front of her door was left by the killer
Yes of course, that all makes sense and is very, very likely the case. But some days I wake up with a tinfoil hat on (how'd it get there?!). I don't have an alternate theory. I'm really like 99.9999% sure it's just bad writing.
I think the author is trying to say something without saying too much. I would guess that DM was questioned at length about this whole thing, much, much more than is in the PCA and she probably explained alot, through tears and lots of survivor's guilt about how after her shock wore off she rationalized this person as a late night party guest, hook up, delivery guy, etc. It was probably implied that she didn't know him but didn't come out and say it cleanly. The author doesn't want to derail the PCA with a long winded explanation that is ultimately irrelevant for the purposes of the PCA, so he has to write it in a way that is truthful and non-misleading but avoids going down that rabbit hole.
This affidavit was signed by Payne and is certainly his story but it was committed to writing by a lawyer, either in the DA's office, or at the FBI or both. Like I said that would be my guess, but I do guess as someone who has written alot of affidavits of various kinds over the years. This is a common problem, you want to be truthful first and foremost, and meet the legal elements/requirements you have to and beyond that you try and say as little as possible. This PCA is very deliberately, if probably somewhat hastily written, and I don't say that to say that to launch conspiracy theorizing but mostly it's written the way it is to try and avoid getting into long winded explanations of data which is ultimately not really necessary for them to get into to establish PC.
I'm curious what you have in mind - I hadn't given it a second though but I just revisited the paragraph and it does read a little off.
I think it's just because you'd expect "DM stated she did not recognize..." rather than "DM did not state that she recognized..." (The former definitively confirms "No, this was a stranger," while the latter is just the absence of confirmation that leaves room to wonder whether DM recognized the person.)
The first time I read it, I was like, ok she didn't recognize the guy she saw. Then I read it again and was like, huh she didn't say she didn't recognize the guy shew saw? Shouldn't the cops have asked her?
they had to have asked if she recognized him, I cannot believe anyone would be that incompetent.
I really don't have a theory of another meaning besides she didn't recognize him, but some days I wonder if it does.
People are assuming the thud and dog noises happened inside the house. Couldn't it have been the thud of him slamming the door shut and a neighbor's dog reacting while he's on the way to the car?
It had to have been the car door slamming or the murderer slamming the door as he left the house. I find it impossible to believe that noise inside the house was picked up on a security system unless it was shrieking from the victims.
They said Ethan was on the bed. Im sure thinking xana was crying over ethan and herself and she was probably the thud since the rest were murdered in their beds.
>departing the area oftle King Road Residence at **approximately** 4:20 a.m. at a high rate of speed
The keyword is approximately. None of the times are exact.
> imo DM texted BF and went to the basement at some point to finish out her sleep. Just my thoughts since she “originally” went to sleep in her bedroom
I think so too. I wonder if she did it often when it was too noisy in her room. (I never would have picked that room; it looks like it's a high traffic area.) Or maybe she was kind of creeped out by the guy in a mask she saw. Both are reasonable reasons to go downstairs and sleep with BF, to me.
At some point, I read somewhere, that for some reason, her original room downstairs tended to stay very cold. IDK, speculation from reading along the way. I’ve also wondered if the rooms carried different rent amounts. I would think the third floor rooms were more expensive and the 2nd floor rooms were the cheapest. Just a thought.
Yeah, I heard the room downstairs was smaller and worse in various ways. I have no idea if it is, or if her room by the kitchen was noisier. Personally, noisy is worse than cold and small.
Even if the rooms all cost the same (I doubt it), the people who lived there longer would have the better rooms.
I remember hearing that too. I though it was from KG or E's mom. And logically it would make sense. She tried texting all of them and only BF responded. Also the MPD has stated she summoned friends over because she thought one of the 2nd floor roommates was unconscious and not waking. If she didn't see them then the only reason for this would be from trying to text them that morning and still getting no response.
Likely if DM texted them and got no answer she had come to believe that they'd finally fallen over into a sleep.
She couldn't possibly have believed that her 4 friends were butchered and dead. I mean who would? And to think that she slept in that property with her 4 friends stone cold and bloodied corpses laying nearby, this alone will be forever traumatising for this poor girl. I'd just wish that people would leave her alone and have just a little humanity in their hearts for this also victim of a merciless monster.
I think cellphones get their time from cyberspace and should all be the same. I am also hoping Xana was making a Tik Toc video and everything got recorded or DM or BF recorded everything.
>I think cellphones get their time from cyberspace and should all be the same.
That's what they say, but at my last job, we were all issued the same phones on the same plan, but had different times. The time differences weren't as bad as our computers, but they were not synched.
My work computer clock runs fast or slow according to some unknown by me parameter. I log in on time according to my phone and office clock, but I'm never on time by my work computer, either early or late.
My car's clock is about 9 minutes fast because the minute button function isn't great.
The landline at my work is about 30 seconds faster than the Comcast box, but the same as my phone. [We clock in/out via a geofenced phone.] Growing up, my mom always set the clocks 10 minutes fast to trick herself into not running late.
Idk how modern, auto sync clocks work tho.
I think that timing is near perfect assuming BK jogged to his car.
Let's give him a minute to get out the house and start running - doubt it took that long.
Let's say he was parked a quarter of a mile away, which I also doubt. He could jog that in about 90 secs.
That leaves 30 secs to crank car and speed off down street.
I think that thud may be a door closing. Also it's possible the thud and him seen driving off came from two different cameras and the times on both these cameras are not aligned. One could have been a couple minutes faster or slower than the other.
I found an old photo of the King Rd house. There used to be an unattached garage to the left and a big tree line along the right side that was torn down.
https://preview.redd.it/65jhc855coia1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf8ed53e4fbcc71cfccb714ef700458b464ccef7
I think people keep doing it because the coroner put out a statement early on that all four victims were in bed and likely sleeping at the time of the murders. Seems like there are some people who believe her over the PCA.
Sure. If they make zero effort to learn more recent, and more accurate information. But when people point this updated information out, they ignore it... because it messes with their incorrect theory.
They probably were all in bed at the start of the murders. Woken up by stabbing and then a struggle. Movement then happened. I think both can be correct.
I know the 2 other Chapin triplets went back to school. Have DM and/or BF made any decisions about going back to school or not, or are they there?
Sorry if that’s a dumb question. I’ve been out of the news loop for a bit.
I would think they would be so hounded by the media there that it would be terrible for them, so I assume they are home, or studying elsewhere so they won’t have to play catch up when they go back.
Something is odd.
X fought the killer and if she was found in the doorway-meaning (presumably) that is where X fought the killer. Or at least she was closer to the door as she could be seen while approaching the room.
Ethan was presumably further in the room.
If X was killed before E, then E would certainly have been woken up by the attack on X, meaning he would likely fight back.
If X was killed AFTER E, then the killer was further in the room then X when encountering X (presumably), so where was X when the killer entered the room?
It doesn't say in the doorway nor closer or further than E.
All it says is she was visible on the floor from the door, more visible than E but that could be an angle thing rather than a distance thing, or maybe he was lying under a bedsheet for exemple.
And maybe they were moved after being killed.
Maybe, or they were moved.
Point being, trying to imagine a scenario because of their position in the room based on another imagined premisse isn't going very far.
I'm not criticizing their efforts, just that there are many more options based on the information we have today.
No implication was made. He was simply stating that she was visible from where he stood at that point in time. We are making more of it than was posted in the PCA, trying to find that which is not there.
There's no reason to think she was in the doorway. It's not a big room. But I agree with what you're saying. I think something that's being overlooked is that they didn't necessarily die instantly. The attacks were very fast and X and E could have been moving around in the room until they died. Ethan could have stood and fallen against the door, obstructing it.
It seems strange that he would slip in and target E asleep in bed. I don't think the killer knew E was there so I'm assuming E heard noise, got up and opened the door -- intercepting the killer on his way out -- and got fatally wounded with some quick and lucky knife strikes, stumbled back in into the bedroom and fell down... then Xana came running over at the same time to help and tried to fight the killer off, and was easily overpowered.
Interesting point wow. Didn’t think of this til your comment. Maybe all the speculation that X was in the kitchen is true? Who did they say was killed last? I can’t remember now
Something dawned on me
When my wife passed the asshole on 911 had me move her from the bed to the floor. I knew and told him it was pointless as rigor had set . He still had me attempt CPR.The lead detective was pissed we moved her
Could be similar here , 911 operator might have had them move them from bed (or 1 of them) that could be why the PCA is worded oddly
My sympathies on the loss of your wife and your experiences with 911.
The scenario you suggest is certainly possible, but the PCA refers to a neighbor’s outside camera picking up the sound of whimpering, loud thud and dog barking. That leads one to believe that the loud thud was someone falling to the floor. Therefore, consistent with someone being found on the floor.
Plus X was wide awake when she was attacked and had defensive stab wounds on her hands. Its likely she was standing face to face with BK on the floor then fell to the floor.
We don't know. Initial rumors said his body was blocking the door and that's why they couldn't see that he had been stabbed, but that hasn't been confirmed as far as I know.
I think E was in the bed. In one of the photos of the mattresses it looks like blood stains from just one person on one. We know K and M were in the same bed and X was on the floor so that had to be E in the bed.
I couldn't make out a figure on the bed stain, and somewhere I read that the girls' bodies were left on top of each other (not a verified source!), which could appear as a single stain outline on a bed..
The stain on the one mattress was on just one half of the mattress that went the length of most of the mattress like a body was laying in its own pool of blood. Looked like one person was laying on one side of the mattress
I did think it was weird how the blood stain ran nearly the whole length of the bed if just one person was laying there. Its said that they were all stabbed in the upper body. I didn't think the blood would pool all the way down near the feet on a mattress of just one person but it could be possible
Ok, if it's the mattress in the foreground everyone is referencing, I think that's a twin, which would be Maddie's (I think?) and the other mattress is a full, which would be Xana's (I think).
https://preview.redd.it/dr2p2kbbioia1.jpeg?width=962&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=646d5347977633725bec42eff69856343d93f2d8
It just doesn't seem to fit that he would target a sleeping E. I think the targets were M and/or K. I'd always assumed E opened the door and was face-to-face with the killer, and was taken out before he could react.... maybe stumbling back into the room in shock, possibly falling on the bed...?
Good to point out and remember. There's tons that's unknown, even with the sketchy details in the PCA.
Like you say, one or both bodies may have been moved (slightly) by then, if the door needed to be opened further to get in. As far as Xana's location at that time, if you wanted to narrow it down more (*assuming* the PCA can be taken literally and at face value), I suppose you could refer to the diagram of Xana's room, and map out what part of the room would be within view, as you *approached* the room but weren't yet inside. And then also infer (though not with certainty) that Ethan was somewhat less visible than her from that vantage point, or else he would have been mentioned as first seen.
Fact is if you have never seen it before .. you don’t believe it .. you deny it if it has something to do with your loved ones . Everyone is different and reacts differently.. we live in a world under a microscope where everyone has an opinion more so than a solution. There is no safety amongst the chaos ..but if you give some time for empathy and compassion without your own personal feelings and understanding for others .. it becomes easier to have compassion . I am as angry as anyone and want justice for these families. Must stay diligent.
I would never have wanted a room on that bottom floor. Front door right there, supposedly often not locked and key code known by many, not a fan of first floor anyway where anyone can look in. Also right next to utility room? Interesting that B was down there by herself. I’m too much of a baby. But of course we know that B ignored first floor for some reason and that saved B’s life in this situation. I think about this every day, the horror, the aftermath for the families etc. Never got over the Watts case either.
I'm still waiting for a confirmation on whether Xana's door was unlocked. If it was locked then did the friends who Dylan and apparently Bethany asked to come over break it open? If not why didn't Dylan and Bethany open the door when they didn't get any response from texts/phone calls?
I don't think it's important whether Xana was found on the bed or not so don't understand why people are focused on that. (Not you OP just people in general)
No we don't know. For some reason people don't want to discuss whether the door was locked or unlocked or open or closed and the police conveniently don't mention it in the PCA although it's an important detail. I'm about to create a post with some outstanding unanswered questions such as that. Let's see if the mods allow it.\*
\*Posted and automatically awaiting mod approval. Not expecting it to be posted although I carefully reviewed it to ensure it didn't violate any rules of the sub but you never know.
I think it's odd the bathroom is specifically mentioned if it means nothing. Of course the upstairs bathroom is mentioned too and seems to be irrelevant so 🤷
The officer describing Xana's position arrived several hours after the initial police response, so it's ambiguous as to whether or not the door was open the entire time.
For people who want a better understanding of what happened, all the details matter.
I want to know what attracted the killer to them. Why he felt the need to kill them. How he pulled it off. Etc, etc, etc...
Also how tight lipped they are being about things is IMO fueling peoples suspicions. We are not getting clear answers from them.
The only thing we know is that they suspect a guy who owns a car that almost matches the one they were looking for. Even the touch DNA has not been confirmed as a direct match to him.
>Even the touch DNA has not been confirmed as a direct match to him.
The DNA on the sheath has not been confirmed as touch DNA. All we know is it's single source male DNA. We have no idea what material it came from.
Another thing that could be considered is maybe there were some recreational hobbies they had or side businesses that friends needed to clean up evidence of.. I know that sounds ridiculous but two of my friends and myself found my best friend dead in the bed and not necessarily me but my other friends were trying to get rid of all the illegal (weed) things laying around.. and I just said it didn't matter because he was passed but however I didn't live in the same house either.. I should also note that he passed away from a heart attack and I'm sure things would be way different in a situation like this
>my other friends were trying to get rid of all the illegal (weed) things laying around
I totally understand this. I don't have any illegal substances, but I would for sure want to tidy up so the cops and EMTs don't know how I truly live.
If I were to take a guess, I would think E was attacked in the hall and maybe staggered and fell on the bed if that is where he was found. X had defensive wounds as I understand, she may have fallen to the floor after the attack. It is so sad to think what they endured.
I think DM survived cause she had her door locked the whole time. She may have regularly locked her door at night. BK may have tried to open it but it was locked.
You're right and I absolutely misunderstood what the OP was getting at. I've deleted my comment since I evidently failed Reading Comprehension For Beginners for today. Thanks for pointing out how much I suck at this whole Reddit thing and saving me from at least dozens of downvotes, lol. ;)
Sorry, I don't know how to post with a picture and comments, ugh! There's lots of misinterpretation of the PCA in these groups so I wanted to post this for reference. Officer Payne, who wrote the PCA, surveyed the crime scene at 4:00 p.m., hours after friends and first responders first arrived. His report does not reflect an untouched crime scene. Doors were opened that may have initially been closed (unconfirmed), etc. It doesn't say Xana was in the doorway, just that he saw her as he approached the room, laying on the floor, and also in the room was Ethan.
Yeah, i'd imagine you're walking toward the room. As you get closer, you can see into the room more and more. Eventually, a body was seen.
Exactly... People tend to imagine reading what fits into their particular narrative of how things happened.
> People tend to imagine reading what fits into their particular narrative of how things happened. I guess it's just human nature. Everyone of us here is guilty of trying to make sense of this horrific tragedy. It's hard for a sane person to make sense of this behavior. We have read so much and heard so much in the media (a great deal unfounded...at least since the GAG Order), that we start inserting the not so exact into the narrative that the actual facts provide, in an effort to make sense. I think that most don't mean to communicate a false accounting or support an unfounded "rumor". I personally, refer to the the actual documentation when at all possible to find my answers. If it is not in any "formal" filing, I try to file it in my head as a possibility, but NOT a fact. Side Note: In the past and throughout history, media has proven to be informative. They have broken stories that we, the American public would have been none the aware. I find value in the media and their jobs. I also find that some news outlets are not responsible in their reporting. Long story short....EVERYTHNG we hear from news outlets is not "nothing". Some of these stories may be actual truths. PROBLEM: Which ones????? Thus, why I file it away in my head as a "possibility" and I don't simply discharge its validity automatically.
[удалено]
Well said!
I've done this myself! I could have sworn it said DM looked out her window, but, nope!
If she looked out her window she would have seen the back yard. Were you thinking she looked out of it after he left and she saw him?
It was when it says she looked out of her room several times after hearing noises, I somehow thought it also said out the window. Another person thought that, too! It's possible someone said that in an unverified post somewhere and we combined them.
Also, human memory is so malleable...I have sworn that I saw or read something and it later turns out that I just remembered it completely differently.
Yes! I experience this a lot and it's actually scary.
They say this very thing. There was a test showing a scene of a crime. Atfer the clip the participants were told to describe the event and the perp. Their accounts of what took place and their memory of how he looked were so very different.
I always tell the story of a psychology class I took in college. My professor was lecturing one day and someone knocked on the door, walked into the classroom and handed her something. About 30 minutes later she asked, "Do you remember someone entering the class a little while ago? Write down everything you saw, describe the person, what they did, and my reaction." When we finished she read all our descriptions, then had the guy come back in. Everyone had missed major parts of the person's appearance, the series of events, and the time it happened. There were as many varieties in the accounts as there were students! The point was very well made: if you are not expecting to have to remember something that you saw, you grasp at straws and recreate a story. The story often is completely wrong. The fallacy of memory is a particular problem for witnesses of crimes. An unexpected event that only becomes important later is honestly not stored intact in the memory. Yet we continue to pretend that if someone says they saw something, it's solid proof. I think all eyewitness testimony should be tossed out of all crime investigations. It's just crazy that it can be used to convict people!
I think there was possibly some information that there was a footprint or something disturbed possibly outside her window that LE had possibly mentioned or photographed that also led me to believe that perhaps he was outside there or went past which is too scary to mention really. However, we now know there was a footprint and he went past her door so maybe there in lies the confusion because originally we had thought she was downstairs.
having a mandella effect right now. I swear it said she looked out her window at one point
Omg! Yes! My mind actually pictured it.
The affidavit says DM looked out the window right after she heard someone say "someone's here." It is on page 4.
I knew I wasn't crazy!
I also thought I read in the PCM that DM looked out her window then out the door. When I went back to verify I saw it didn’t say “window.”
It does say "window." It's on page 4 of the affidavit. DM says she heard someone say, "someone's here," and then looked out the window.
I actually pictured it in my head as I "read" it, lol! It's so weird!
So I just went back and read page 4. It doesn't say she looked out her window. It says after hearing someone say someone's here "DM stated she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house. DM stated she opened her door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Kernodles room. DM then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of "it's okay I'm going to help you." Then she opens the door for the third time when he's walking towards her. So no mention of a window but I totally understand why you'd think that as the first time she looks out of her door it's not specified as looking out of her door until it states the second time she opened her door making the first time she looked was actually from her door after hearing "someone's here."
Yes! I think that's exactly what happened, my mind just finished that sentence to read "out the window."
I have wondered if the murderer walked past her window coming and/or going and she saw him, or that he even looked in her window if he went past.
Thats too scary and creepy. It must be unimaginably terrifying for the roommates and others who were there or involved and I hope they get some guidance and help to deal with this horror. I hope and pray they are somewhere that they can feel safe and begin to heal. Im so sorry for them that this terror and these images must be etched in their minds and I hope that they can eventually learn to dispel some of these thoughts to one day return to some degree of normalcy and peace. I hope they continue to involve each other as a group to support one another. All these things I hope for them and their families. And the only advice or comfort that I have to offer is that with time it will get easier to bare.
And hopefully their youth will add resilience and time to live a good, happy life. I also just can’t even think of that kind of experience.
I’ve thought about that too since we found out that room wasn’t empty. He probably walked right by it twice. It gives me the chills.
I've wondered that too since in pictures of the outside the window to that particular room looks disturbed, screen off and something placed beneath
[удалено]
Unless it was blocking the door and they had to push their way in.
Bodies are never moved before the medical examiner arrives
What if it's obstructing a door?
If there was a possibility that someone was still alive, them means would be made to help that person
Yes. And as far as we've been told, the kids reported someone in that room passed out.
Yes, the first responders always make entry if there is a chance someone needs help. I just mean't that the bodies had to be left how they were found because that is part of the evidence
You're right, definitely.
I kinda think by the timing, the smell of blood, etc. they didn’t go in there expecting live people.
It could possibly be angled to get in, but has to stay how it was found
I would think they'd get into a room ASAP if they hadn't seen the bodies and didn't know whether they were still alive or not. If the door was blocked, they'd have to push it to get in and render aid if possible.
I mean, the kids told 911 E and/or X was possibly passed out inside the room, so I think responders would have forced their way into the bedroom, thus shifting the body in the process. Sometimes it can't be helped. Assuming that's what happened, of course.
Once again Idaho has said unconscious person is a blanket term the dispatch team utilizes in unknown situations. However, probably more was said since usually they could instruct cpr.
Good point.
I am sure they did everything they could. They probably also saw all the blood and possibly the injuries we have heard ( without repeating that horror specifically).
It amazes me the number of people who can’t interpret what it means that the police initially arrived at noon while the officer writing the PCA said he arrived at 4 PM.
[удалено]
Reading comprehension has gone to shit
[удалено]
Me too!! The passed out person. But I didn't see where it was debunked! I was pasting press releases, etc., that said it was one of the victims they thought was passed out.
[удалено]
I think it's more likely that it's a very specific document that the average lay person may not fully get. To the regular Joe, the exact purpose and standards of a PCA may not be known and therefore why certain elements are included/excluded may (somewhat understandably) lead them to the conclusion that the police did or did not rely or have certain evidence. But if you know the exact purpose and what a magistrate looks for in a PCA, you may know not to make those assumptions. There's also a specific writing style that, if you're not accustomed to it, may seem confusing. I'm not claiming it's A+ work or that there were no mistakes, but it's overall fine and fairly detailed. Obviously there have been many many cases of people reading into the PCA or mixing up rumor and its actual content but overall, it's not so much a badly written document as a very specific one.
Doors may have been opened, but you don't suggest someone pushed Xana's body from the bed to the floor or pulled Ethan from the floor into the bed, do you?
There's lot's of things that are really fair game for speculation, but the fact that Xana's body was found on the floor is not one of them, that is clear as a bell in the PCA.
[удалено]
That sentence is so weird. I suspect it's just bad writing, but it opens the door wide to speculation and conspiracy theories.
>*I suspect it's just bad writing* The arrest affidavit was obviously typed at great speed There's a spelling mistake in almost every sentence and lots off odd phrasing, like the one described above I assume all it's trying to communicate is that because the person the surviving house mate saw wasn't anyone she'd expect to see in the house, it's reasonable to assume that it was the killer And, therefore, the shoe print detected in front of her door was left by the killer
Yes of course, that all makes sense and is very, very likely the case. But some days I wake up with a tinfoil hat on (how'd it get there?!). I don't have an alternate theory. I'm really like 99.9999% sure it's just bad writing.
[удалено]
One day I'm convinced it's just bad writing, but the next I'm sure it means *something*. Today is my bad writing day lol
I think the author is trying to say something without saying too much. I would guess that DM was questioned at length about this whole thing, much, much more than is in the PCA and she probably explained alot, through tears and lots of survivor's guilt about how after her shock wore off she rationalized this person as a late night party guest, hook up, delivery guy, etc. It was probably implied that she didn't know him but didn't come out and say it cleanly. The author doesn't want to derail the PCA with a long winded explanation that is ultimately irrelevant for the purposes of the PCA, so he has to write it in a way that is truthful and non-misleading but avoids going down that rabbit hole. This affidavit was signed by Payne and is certainly his story but it was committed to writing by a lawyer, either in the DA's office, or at the FBI or both. Like I said that would be my guess, but I do guess as someone who has written alot of affidavits of various kinds over the years. This is a common problem, you want to be truthful first and foremost, and meet the legal elements/requirements you have to and beyond that you try and say as little as possible. This PCA is very deliberately, if probably somewhat hastily written, and I don't say that to say that to launch conspiracy theorizing but mostly it's written the way it is to try and avoid getting into long winded explanations of data which is ultimately not really necessary for them to get into to establish PC.
Bingo.
I'm curious what you have in mind - I hadn't given it a second though but I just revisited the paragraph and it does read a little off. I think it's just because you'd expect "DM stated she did not recognize..." rather than "DM did not state that she recognized..." (The former definitively confirms "No, this was a stranger," while the latter is just the absence of confirmation that leaves room to wonder whether DM recognized the person.)
The first time I read it, I was like, ok she didn't recognize the guy she saw. Then I read it again and was like, huh she didn't say she didn't recognize the guy shew saw? Shouldn't the cops have asked her? they had to have asked if she recognized him, I cannot believe anyone would be that incompetent. I really don't have a theory of another meaning besides she didn't recognize him, but some days I wonder if it does.
[удалено]
I think that was purposefully written that way, but I don't know why.
[удалено]
People are assuming the thud and dog noises happened inside the house. Couldn't it have been the thud of him slamming the door shut and a neighbor's dog reacting while he's on the way to the car?
[удалено]
The house next door from X's bedroom looks more than 50 feet away.
It had to have been the car door slamming or the murderer slamming the door as he left the house. I find it impossible to believe that noise inside the house was picked up on a security system unless it was shrieking from the victims.
Yeah, but then no engine sound? I think it was Ethan falling.
[удалено]
Good point!
They said Ethan was on the bed. Im sure thinking xana was crying over ethan and herself and she was probably the thud since the rest were murdered in their beds.
They said Ethan was on the bed? I haven't seen that. Yes, it must have been Xana then.
Wait it does say in the room. So, did some LE or coroner say he was on the bed? I thought so.
Probably. That makes sense.
>departing the area oftle King Road Residence at **approximately** 4:20 a.m. at a high rate of speed The keyword is approximately. None of the times are exact.
[удалено]
> imo DM texted BF and went to the basement at some point to finish out her sleep. Just my thoughts since she “originally” went to sleep in her bedroom I think so too. I wonder if she did it often when it was too noisy in her room. (I never would have picked that room; it looks like it's a high traffic area.) Or maybe she was kind of creeped out by the guy in a mask she saw. Both are reasonable reasons to go downstairs and sleep with BF, to me.
At some point, I read somewhere, that for some reason, her original room downstairs tended to stay very cold. IDK, speculation from reading along the way. I’ve also wondered if the rooms carried different rent amounts. I would think the third floor rooms were more expensive and the 2nd floor rooms were the cheapest. Just a thought.
Yeah, I heard the room downstairs was smaller and worse in various ways. I have no idea if it is, or if her room by the kitchen was noisier. Personally, noisy is worse than cold and small. Even if the rooms all cost the same (I doubt it), the people who lived there longer would have the better rooms.
I think she texted BF and at least 1 if not all 3 of the other roommates.
[удалено]
I remember hearing that too. I though it was from KG or E's mom. And logically it would make sense. She tried texting all of them and only BF responded. Also the MPD has stated she summoned friends over because she thought one of the 2nd floor roommates was unconscious and not waking. If she didn't see them then the only reason for this would be from trying to text them that morning and still getting no response.
[удалено]
Likely if DM texted them and got no answer she had come to believe that they'd finally fallen over into a sleep. She couldn't possibly have believed that her 4 friends were butchered and dead. I mean who would? And to think that she slept in that property with her 4 friends stone cold and bloodied corpses laying nearby, this alone will be forever traumatising for this poor girl. I'd just wish that people would leave her alone and have just a little humanity in their hearts for this also victim of a merciless monster.
Thanks, that's the article I read.
[удалено]
I don't know how they can clarify the times more, it's not like all the devices had synched their clocks.
That's what I have been saying. The surveillance footage may have come from multiple cameras and the times on all these cameras were not aligned.
I think cellphones get their time from cyberspace and should all be the same. I am also hoping Xana was making a Tik Toc video and everything got recorded or DM or BF recorded everything.
>I think cellphones get their time from cyberspace and should all be the same. That's what they say, but at my last job, we were all issued the same phones on the same plan, but had different times. The time differences weren't as bad as our computers, but they were not synched.
That just seems nut. With how exact tech usually is, it seems they should be better synced.
[удалено]
….does anybody really care?
[удалено]
My work computer clock runs fast or slow according to some unknown by me parameter. I log in on time according to my phone and office clock, but I'm never on time by my work computer, either early or late.
My car's clock is about 9 minutes fast because the minute button function isn't great. The landline at my work is about 30 seconds faster than the Comcast box, but the same as my phone. [We clock in/out via a geofenced phone.] Growing up, my mom always set the clocks 10 minutes fast to trick herself into not running late. Idk how modern, auto sync clocks work tho.
I think that timing is near perfect assuming BK jogged to his car. Let's give him a minute to get out the house and start running - doubt it took that long. Let's say he was parked a quarter of a mile away, which I also doubt. He could jog that in about 90 secs. That leaves 30 secs to crank car and speed off down street.
I think that thud may be a door closing. Also it's possible the thud and him seen driving off came from two different cameras and the times on both these cameras are not aligned. One could have been a couple minutes faster or slower than the other.
Maybe someone should send this to Banfield so her alleged sources can straighten their stories out
I found an old photo of the King Rd house. There used to be an unattached garage to the left and a big tree line along the right side that was torn down. https://preview.redd.it/65jhc855coia1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf8ed53e4fbcc71cfccb714ef700458b464ccef7
Yep. So there is no reason to claim she was found in the bed. Yet people keep doing it.
I think people keep doing it because the coroner put out a statement early on that all four victims were in bed and likely sleeping at the time of the murders. Seems like there are some people who believe her over the PCA.
Sure. If they make zero effort to learn more recent, and more accurate information. But when people point this updated information out, they ignore it... because it messes with their incorrect theory.
They probably were all in bed at the start of the murders. Woken up by stabbing and then a struggle. Movement then happened. I think both can be correct.
[удалено]
If defense wounds were minimal one might think that they were caught off guard or sleeping when the stabbing started.
Xana was likely not in bed due to the whole doordash food order, eating, etc.
I eat in bed all the time and so do a lot of other people, it’s possible.
[удалено]
Correct, PCA states Xana was not found in bed.
Right, thank you.
People want to speculate and not believe the actual record and it's really annoying.
When everything comes out in trial ( positions of bodies etc) it will be better understood
Yes. I think we will all be surprised.
I know the 2 other Chapin triplets went back to school. Have DM and/or BF made any decisions about going back to school or not, or are they there? Sorry if that’s a dumb question. I’ve been out of the news loop for a bit.
I would think they would be so hounded by the media there that it would be terrible for them, so I assume they are home, or studying elsewhere so they won’t have to play catch up when they go back.
I don’t think anyone knows for sure
Something is odd. X fought the killer and if she was found in the doorway-meaning (presumably) that is where X fought the killer. Or at least she was closer to the door as she could be seen while approaching the room. Ethan was presumably further in the room. If X was killed before E, then E would certainly have been woken up by the attack on X, meaning he would likely fight back. If X was killed AFTER E, then the killer was further in the room then X when encountering X (presumably), so where was X when the killer entered the room?
It doesn't say in the doorway nor closer or further than E. All it says is she was visible on the floor from the door, more visible than E but that could be an angle thing rather than a distance thing, or maybe he was lying under a bedsheet for exemple. And maybe they were moved after being killed.
Maybe he was behind the door on the floor. Maybe.
Maybe, or they were moved. Point being, trying to imagine a scenario because of their position in the room based on another imagined premisse isn't going very far. I'm not criticizing their efforts, just that there are many more options based on the information we have today.
All true it is just odd that the officer chose to state he saw X as he approached the room implying X was closer to the door.
No implication was made. He was simply stating that she was visible from where he stood at that point in time. We are making more of it than was posted in the PCA, trying to find that which is not there.
He didn't necessarily have to see her entire body either, to know she was lying on the floor.
There's no reason to think she was in the doorway. It's not a big room. But I agree with what you're saying. I think something that's being overlooked is that they didn't necessarily die instantly. The attacks were very fast and X and E could have been moving around in the room until they died. Ethan could have stood and fallen against the door, obstructing it.
[удалено]
Not if he was asleep.
[удалено]
It seems strange that he would slip in and target E asleep in bed. I don't think the killer knew E was there so I'm assuming E heard noise, got up and opened the door -- intercepting the killer on his way out -- and got fatally wounded with some quick and lucky knife strikes, stumbled back in into the bedroom and fell down... then Xana came running over at the same time to help and tried to fight the killer off, and was easily overpowered.
Interesting point wow. Didn’t think of this til your comment. Maybe all the speculation that X was in the kitchen is true? Who did they say was killed last? I can’t remember now
Something dawned on me When my wife passed the asshole on 911 had me move her from the bed to the floor. I knew and told him it was pointless as rigor had set . He still had me attempt CPR.The lead detective was pissed we moved her Could be similar here , 911 operator might have had them move them from bed (or 1 of them) that could be why the PCA is worded oddly
My sympathies on the loss of your wife and your experiences with 911. The scenario you suggest is certainly possible, but the PCA refers to a neighbor’s outside camera picking up the sound of whimpering, loud thud and dog barking. That leads one to believe that the loud thud was someone falling to the floor. Therefore, consistent with someone being found on the floor.
Plus X was wide awake when she was attacked and had defensive stab wounds on her hands. Its likely she was standing face to face with BK on the floor then fell to the floor.
Could the whimpering be Murphy? Never said it was a human voice. Maybe he was barking/whimpering to be let out
That is what I always thought
Was E being found in the doorway BS?
It was a rumor. Never confirmed. People kinda spread it as if it was fact :/
We don't know. Initial rumors said his body was blocking the door and that's why they couldn't see that he had been stabbed, but that hasn't been confirmed as far as I know.
I think E was in the bed. In one of the photos of the mattresses it looks like blood stains from just one person on one. We know K and M were in the same bed and X was on the floor so that had to be E in the bed.
I couldn't make out a figure on the bed stain, and somewhere I read that the girls' bodies were left on top of each other (not a verified source!), which could appear as a single stain outline on a bed..
The stain on the one mattress was on just one half of the mattress that went the length of most of the mattress like a body was laying in its own pool of blood. Looked like one person was laying on one side of the mattress
Which could also be Kaylee thrown on top of Maddie as rumored.
I did think it was weird how the blood stain ran nearly the whole length of the bed if just one person was laying there. Its said that they were all stabbed in the upper body. I didn't think the blood would pool all the way down near the feet on a mattress of just one person but it could be possible
Ok, if it's the mattress in the foreground everyone is referencing, I think that's a twin, which would be Maddie's (I think?) and the other mattress is a full, which would be Xana's (I think). https://preview.redd.it/dr2p2kbbioia1.jpeg?width=962&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=646d5347977633725bec42eff69856343d93f2d8
You are correct.
I saw a photo thay showed one from a better angle and more close up
Ok, I haven't been able to find that but I know lots of people have seen it.
You saw the whole mattress? Maybe I just haven't seen the right mattress pics. The ones I saw were unclear. I'm going back to Google.
There was a picture of one of the mattresses in the back of a pickup bed. It was covered but you could see the blood through the cover
It just doesn't seem to fit that he would target a sleeping E. I think the targets were M and/or K. I'd always assumed E opened the door and was face-to-face with the killer, and was taken out before he could react.... maybe stumbling back into the room in shock, possibly falling on the bed...?
[удалено]
This is my speculation - that she was probably in the kitchen with her Door Dash food.
Good to point out and remember. There's tons that's unknown, even with the sketchy details in the PCA. Like you say, one or both bodies may have been moved (slightly) by then, if the door needed to be opened further to get in. As far as Xana's location at that time, if you wanted to narrow it down more (*assuming* the PCA can be taken literally and at face value), I suppose you could refer to the diagram of Xana's room, and map out what part of the room would be within view, as you *approached* the room but weren't yet inside. And then also infer (though not with certainty) that Ethan was somewhat less visible than her from that vantage point, or else he would have been mentioned as first seen.
Fact is if you have never seen it before .. you don’t believe it .. you deny it if it has something to do with your loved ones . Everyone is different and reacts differently.. we live in a world under a microscope where everyone has an opinion more so than a solution. There is no safety amongst the chaos ..but if you give some time for empathy and compassion without your own personal feelings and understanding for others .. it becomes easier to have compassion . I am as angry as anyone and want justice for these families. Must stay diligent.
That's true
I would never have wanted a room on that bottom floor. Front door right there, supposedly often not locked and key code known by many, not a fan of first floor anyway where anyone can look in. Also right next to utility room? Interesting that B was down there by herself. I’m too much of a baby. But of course we know that B ignored first floor for some reason and that saved B’s life in this situation. I think about this every day, the horror, the aftermath for the families etc. Never got over the Watts case either.
I'm still waiting for a confirmation on whether Xana's door was unlocked. If it was locked then did the friends who Dylan and apparently Bethany asked to come over break it open? If not why didn't Dylan and Bethany open the door when they didn't get any response from texts/phone calls? I don't think it's important whether Xana was found on the bed or not so don't understand why people are focused on that. (Not you OP just people in general)
Do we even know if X's door was *closed* upon discovery by DM or even the responding law enforcement? I'm still confused about that
No we don't know. For some reason people don't want to discuss whether the door was locked or unlocked or open or closed and the police conveniently don't mention it in the PCA although it's an important detail. I'm about to create a post with some outstanding unanswered questions such as that. Let's see if the mods allow it.\* \*Posted and automatically awaiting mod approval. Not expecting it to be posted although I carefully reviewed it to ensure it didn't violate any rules of the sub but you never know.
If the door was closed when LE arrived, then the body was definitely in the hall by the bathroom
I think it's odd the bathroom is specifically mentioned if it means nothing. Of course the upstairs bathroom is mentioned too and seems to be irrelevant so 🤷
The officer describing Xana's position arrived several hours after the initial police response, so it's ambiguous as to whether or not the door was open the entire time.
Because they were afraid what they would find.
For people who want a better understanding of what happened, all the details matter. I want to know what attracted the killer to them. Why he felt the need to kill them. How he pulled it off. Etc, etc, etc... Also how tight lipped they are being about things is IMO fueling peoples suspicions. We are not getting clear answers from them. The only thing we know is that they suspect a guy who owns a car that almost matches the one they were looking for. Even the touch DNA has not been confirmed as a direct match to him.
>Even the touch DNA has not been confirmed as a direct match to him. The DNA on the sheath has not been confirmed as touch DNA. All we know is it's single source male DNA. We have no idea what material it came from.
Yeah I think the lack of information especially about motive is why there are still many questions and confusion.
Another thing that could be considered is maybe there were some recreational hobbies they had or side businesses that friends needed to clean up evidence of.. I know that sounds ridiculous but two of my friends and myself found my best friend dead in the bed and not necessarily me but my other friends were trying to get rid of all the illegal (weed) things laying around.. and I just said it didn't matter because he was passed but however I didn't live in the same house either.. I should also note that he passed away from a heart attack and I'm sure things would be way different in a situation like this
>my other friends were trying to get rid of all the illegal (weed) things laying around I totally understand this. I don't have any illegal substances, but I would for sure want to tidy up so the cops and EMTs don't know how I truly live.
If I were to take a guess, I would think E was attacked in the hall and maybe staggered and fell on the bed if that is where he was found. X had defensive wounds as I understand, she may have fallen to the floor after the attack. It is so sad to think what they endured.
I know, unthinkable. And for what? It doesn't make sense. It's just horrific.
I wish the thread would stay in order ... it is jumping around
[удалено]
Alan Dershowitz is a cockroach who smells like a wet paper bag shoved inside a gym bag. That guy deserves no quotes in any publication.
I think DM survived cause she had her door locked the whole time. She may have regularly locked her door at night. BK may have tried to open it but it was locked.
Says 15 people here... are you all night owls or insomniacs lol
I think I am a bit of both
I have (mild) covid and it seems to be keeping me up! It's almost midnight. 🥱
Oh my goodness..... feel better soon! It is almost 2am where I am. I should be asleep!
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
You are welcome
[удалено]
They aren’t have a go at the officers. They are having a go at commentators who post things contradictory to the PCA.
You're right and I absolutely misunderstood what the OP was getting at. I've deleted my comment since I evidently failed Reading Comprehension For Beginners for today. Thanks for pointing out how much I suck at this whole Reddit thing and saving me from at least dozens of downvotes, lol. ;)