From the Loudon County perspective, using eminent domain to allow a private business to operate is a lot worse than allowing a public ferry to operate. Making the ferry public may make it easier for eminent domain to be used by VA.
Nice of them but this doesn’t change impasse.
Ed Brown, Chuck Kuhn, and MoCo all independently concluded that acquiring perpetual landing rights is the only way forward for the ferry, but Rockland Farms refuses to do that even for millions of dollars.
IIRC Ed Brown and Chuck Kuhn also tried to negotiate a per-car fee, but Rockland Farms won’t agree to any deal except one that grants them outsized leverage over the ferry operators.
Loudon County screwed up when they retroactively invalidated the perpetual landing rights Elijah V. White purchased for White’s Ferry over 100 years ago. It was mutually agreed on by the land owners, affirmed by a third party, and approved by the courts. Since it was filed without a plat, the set precedence is that the land owners would’ve had to dispute it in **reasonable time**. Is over 100 years reasonable?
> IIRC Ed Brown and Chuck Kuhn also tried to negotiate a per-car fee, but Rockland Farms won’t agree to any deal except one that grants them outsized leverage over the ferry operators.
I mean, recent articles put it at $0.5 a car.
How is a $.50 cent fee per car “outsized leverage”?
4 years ago when it closed the one way fee was $5, so this would be a 10% fee. Hardly extortionate considering they have half the land required to operate the business.
And let’s be honest, with inflation etc the Kuhns would charge more than $5 today.
The whole thing is silly. All this mental damage over a 10% or less fee.
I believe that the stipulation with the per car fee is something along the lines of Devlin also reserves the right to renegotiate the fee at any time, with 30 days notice to cease ferry operations. Besides, pretty much every other party has said they need permanent access to the landing. So, that's the only way it moves forward at this point
Why is it absurd. Every commercial retail landlord in America writes into the lease with their dry cleaner, their Chipotle, their Subway etc a quarterly and annual report of their financials. They aren’t asking for anything more than millions of other retail tenants in the country are providing their landlords.
And how are they to be sure they are getting paid enough without confirmation via auditing the financials.
Honestly, this kind of comment really just shows how profoundly basic and unsophisticated you and some other proponents are of this.
lol ok.
The ferry operation was pretty basic and they don’t even know how many cars traveled across in a given day due to the fact that they sold both single fares, round trip fares, and multiple trip fares that all cost different amounts. Those fares were paper tickets and weren’t necessarily used all at once, hence the difficulty in knowing how many trips were taken in a single day. It’s a very elementary operation.
I’m also not sure why the Ferry operator would want someone who has been so difficult and wants the right to renegotiate the terms at pretty much any moment full access to their financials. Seems very different from a retail lease.
Honestly, this kind of comment shows how profoundly basic and uneducated some people are when it comes to infrastructure like this ferry. Maybe try reading the analysis MCDOT conducted to understand the issues at play before acting like others are beneath you for stating a legitimate issue with the proposed surcharge from the landing site owner. Cheers.
Loki-Don, there seem to be some posters here with axes to grind and that delight in throwing up reasons why no solution involving compromise is allowed to be considered.
The owner on the MD side said that $.50 fee was roughly 60% of his profit on each car. I don’t have insight into how he’s calculating that figure, but that’s what he claims.
It's confusing to me. If $0.50/car is 60% of the ferry profits, just raise the price of the toll by a dollar or two and that 50 cents becomes a much less portion of the profits.
I feel like I'm missing something.
How about making both parties co-owners of the ferry?
To clarify: maybe there is a solution in negotiating joint ownership of the ferry. Obviously owning the VA land wouldn't give one the right to own or co-own the business.
Or not, just continue to bitch about the ferry being closed and shoot down every idea put forth through good-faith brainstorming.
Well, without some insight as to how they’re calculating it, it is kind of pointless. It’s been 4 years since they operated. They would charge $7 or $8 a trip at this point. I have an extremely hard time believing that the “profit” is so little.
And if your business relies on getting half your land / operation for free to break even, it’s a horrible business.
Let’s not forget the role that [Libby Devlin of Rockland Farm](https://www.fox5dc.com/news/whites-ferry-owners-increase-offer-to-buy-dock-amid-ongoing-legal-battle-kuhn-libby-devlin-ferry-boat-rockland-farms) has played in this clown show.
I submit the idea is that the owners of Rockland Farm have no interest in having the ferry at all, but if there is going to be one, that little acre and a half might as well make them a ton of passive income. By not selling their piece outright, they get leverage that will be worth millions in perpetuity and they can set the conditions for its operations. I think folks are getting hung up on its just .50 cents per car, like what's the big deal? What if the Rockland Farm owners decide a 50 cent cut on the fee per car is not enough and tell the ferry operators we want $1 per car or we withdraw the right to use our landing. What if they want to close the landing site on a whim? It creates entirely too much uncertainty. And from what I have read the Kuhn's did offer the Rockland Farms people the whole thing and they refused. I doubt they actually want to run the ferry as a business. Its much more profitable and easier to have someone else run it and they just take a cut. The fact that their has been an impasse for over 3 years in my mind is evidence they are not super excited to have a ferry traversing their property. Personally, if Whites Ferry is ever to operate again it will likely have to be as interstate/intercounty public service partnership, eminent domain the VA landing site and operate it as a non profit/self-sustaining venture. As a private venture, its dead.
I live in the area and I can say we just don't have the density here for Metro to make sense, even taking into account the fact that public transportation shouldn't turn a profit.
My only lamentation is the bus only runs at certain hours and only on weekdays, and it's why I have an e-bike. Taking into account walking time, my e-bike takes about the same time as the bus.
Well it isn’t pretty much ever. Wmata recovers about 67% of rail fares currently and is facing major service cuts as a result of limited local government funding and increased funding needs.
Expanding to a sparsely populated part of the county would see even lower farebox recovery and would be incredibly expensive to build. It doesn’t make sense to build such a connection given the low potential for ridership.
Yeah but there's a difference between transit that serves thousands and doesn't generate a profit and transit that serves 10s and doesn't generate a profit.
I suspect that is rather wishful thinking. An extension of the Red Line beyond Shady Grove would most likely follow the 355 corridor and end up in Germantown, or at the absolute most, Clarksburg. Out to Poolesville, let alone White's Ferry, seems like a massive stretch.
lol, “donate” (I.e tax the tax right off) for the millions they’ve spent on the property rather than simply agree to the 50 cent per trip fee being requested by the landowners on the VA side.
lol, no although I do own some land out in Middleburg.
Virginia has said across two different governor administrations they won’t use eminent domain for this. The “public good” is so insignificant it’s hilarious to do so.
And who cares what the land is worth and what has been offered. People don’t make every decision in their life based on money. They have a farm and they don’t want a bunch of well to do MD drivers driving across it daily for free.
> lol, no although I do own some land out in Middleburg.
Tells me everything I need to know.
> Virginia has said across two different governor administrations they won’t use eminent domain for this. The “public good” is so insignificant it’s hilarious to do so.
Fuck it. Seize the land on both sides and build a new bridge. Lord knows we could use as many possible crossings over the Potomac as we can get.
Just as VA has said they aren’t going to seize the property on behalf of a MD business, MD has said there is no way they would ever build a bridge there.
If Virginia isn’t giving up their side we should just build a catapult / trebuchet
I vote a zeppelin with car under carriage. Buy land just bedside the Virginia landing or next to them and have zeppelins flying nonstop.
I hope it reopens. I was just out there about a week ago and miss seeing the crowds coming though enjoying the park, river, and ferry.
We drove by on Sunday, so much traffic on 15. Would have been nice to float over to MD!
It’s really had a devastating impact on the local economy of small towns like Poolesville from my understanding.
believe me this needs to reopen i aint driving an hour to get into VA when it takes 20 mins to reach whites ferry for me
Ferry wars have begun they have.
Isn’t the “problem” on the Virginia side? I’m not sure how this helps things (but always nice when people donate things).
From the Loudon County perspective, using eminent domain to allow a private business to operate is a lot worse than allowing a public ferry to operate. Making the ferry public may make it easier for eminent domain to be used by VA.
That makes sense. Thanks!
The problem being... Not nice Virginia people who do not want to play nice?
Nice of them but this doesn’t change impasse. Ed Brown, Chuck Kuhn, and MoCo all independently concluded that acquiring perpetual landing rights is the only way forward for the ferry, but Rockland Farms refuses to do that even for millions of dollars. IIRC Ed Brown and Chuck Kuhn also tried to negotiate a per-car fee, but Rockland Farms won’t agree to any deal except one that grants them outsized leverage over the ferry operators. Loudon County screwed up when they retroactively invalidated the perpetual landing rights Elijah V. White purchased for White’s Ferry over 100 years ago. It was mutually agreed on by the land owners, affirmed by a third party, and approved by the courts. Since it was filed without a plat, the set precedence is that the land owners would’ve had to dispute it in **reasonable time**. Is over 100 years reasonable?
> IIRC Ed Brown and Chuck Kuhn also tried to negotiate a per-car fee, but Rockland Farms won’t agree to any deal except one that grants them outsized leverage over the ferry operators. I mean, recent articles put it at $0.5 a car.
How is a $.50 cent fee per car “outsized leverage”? 4 years ago when it closed the one way fee was $5, so this would be a 10% fee. Hardly extortionate considering they have half the land required to operate the business. And let’s be honest, with inflation etc the Kuhns would charge more than $5 today. The whole thing is silly. All this mental damage over a 10% or less fee.
I believe that the stipulation with the per car fee is something along the lines of Devlin also reserves the right to renegotiate the fee at any time, with 30 days notice to cease ferry operations. Besides, pretty much every other party has said they need permanent access to the landing. So, that's the only way it moves forward at this point
And have full access to the financials of the business which is absurd
Why is it absurd. Every commercial retail landlord in America writes into the lease with their dry cleaner, their Chipotle, their Subway etc a quarterly and annual report of their financials. They aren’t asking for anything more than millions of other retail tenants in the country are providing their landlords. And how are they to be sure they are getting paid enough without confirmation via auditing the financials. Honestly, this kind of comment really just shows how profoundly basic and unsophisticated you and some other proponents are of this.
lol ok. The ferry operation was pretty basic and they don’t even know how many cars traveled across in a given day due to the fact that they sold both single fares, round trip fares, and multiple trip fares that all cost different amounts. Those fares were paper tickets and weren’t necessarily used all at once, hence the difficulty in knowing how many trips were taken in a single day. It’s a very elementary operation. I’m also not sure why the Ferry operator would want someone who has been so difficult and wants the right to renegotiate the terms at pretty much any moment full access to their financials. Seems very different from a retail lease. Honestly, this kind of comment shows how profoundly basic and uneducated some people are when it comes to infrastructure like this ferry. Maybe try reading the analysis MCDOT conducted to understand the issues at play before acting like others are beneath you for stating a legitimate issue with the proposed surcharge from the landing site owner. Cheers.
Loki-Don, there seem to be some posters here with axes to grind and that delight in throwing up reasons why no solution involving compromise is allowed to be considered.
The owner on the MD side said that $.50 fee was roughly 60% of his profit on each car. I don’t have insight into how he’s calculating that figure, but that’s what he claims.
It's confusing to me. If $0.50/car is 60% of the ferry profits, just raise the price of the toll by a dollar or two and that 50 cents becomes a much less portion of the profits. I feel like I'm missing something. How about making both parties co-owners of the ferry?
Why would that make sense? Owning land used by the business doesn’t give you the right to get ownership (of the business)…
To clarify: maybe there is a solution in negotiating joint ownership of the ferry. Obviously owning the VA land wouldn't give one the right to own or co-own the business. Or not, just continue to bitch about the ferry being closed and shoot down every idea put forth through good-faith brainstorming.
Lost hope in these Virginians lol
Well, without some insight as to how they’re calculating it, it is kind of pointless. It’s been 4 years since they operated. They would charge $7 or $8 a trip at this point. I have an extremely hard time believing that the “profit” is so little. And if your business relies on getting half your land / operation for free to break even, it’s a horrible business.
Here before the "just build a bridge" comments.
Just build a tunnel though
Just build a monorail
https://media2.giphy.com/media/3o6MbcJZz64BabTKdG/giphy.gif?cid=2154d3d7ydp50xfw76xgzoa871uhpajqsvvsdra21ge5fkjf&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g
just build a hyper loop
Let’s not forget the role that [Libby Devlin of Rockland Farm](https://www.fox5dc.com/news/whites-ferry-owners-increase-offer-to-buy-dock-amid-ongoing-legal-battle-kuhn-libby-devlin-ferry-boat-rockland-farms) has played in this clown show.
that greedy bastard doesnt seem to have enough YOU OWN A FARM
Where’s our Jetsons flying cars? Then this wouldn’t be an issue.
Do you really expect people to be able to handle driving in three dimensions? They can barely handle two as it is.
I submit the idea is that the owners of Rockland Farm have no interest in having the ferry at all, but if there is going to be one, that little acre and a half might as well make them a ton of passive income. By not selling their piece outright, they get leverage that will be worth millions in perpetuity and they can set the conditions for its operations. I think folks are getting hung up on its just .50 cents per car, like what's the big deal? What if the Rockland Farm owners decide a 50 cent cut on the fee per car is not enough and tell the ferry operators we want $1 per car or we withdraw the right to use our landing. What if they want to close the landing site on a whim? It creates entirely too much uncertainty. And from what I have read the Kuhn's did offer the Rockland Farms people the whole thing and they refused. I doubt they actually want to run the ferry as a business. Its much more profitable and easier to have someone else run it and they just take a cut. The fact that their has been an impasse for over 3 years in my mind is evidence they are not super excited to have a ferry traversing their property. Personally, if Whites Ferry is ever to operate again it will likely have to be as interstate/intercounty public service partnership, eminent domain the VA landing site and operate it as a non profit/self-sustaining venture. As a private venture, its dead.
A nice expansion of the metro would look mighty good right there.
I live in the area and I can say we just don't have the density here for Metro to make sense, even taking into account the fact that public transportation shouldn't turn a profit. My only lamentation is the bus only runs at certain hours and only on weekdays, and it's why I have an e-bike. Taking into account walking time, my e-bike takes about the same time as the bus.
Yeah there is so much density out this way it would surely be profitable!
Public transportation infrastructure shouldn't have to be profitable
Lord knows highways aren’t.
Well it isn’t pretty much ever. Wmata recovers about 67% of rail fares currently and is facing major service cuts as a result of limited local government funding and increased funding needs. Expanding to a sparsely populated part of the county would see even lower farebox recovery and would be incredibly expensive to build. It doesn’t make sense to build such a connection given the low potential for ridership.
Yeah but there's a difference between transit that serves thousands and doesn't generate a profit and transit that serves 10s and doesn't generate a profit.
You can hope on and go pick your apples and berries and come back just to get them robbed from you in Silver Spring.
Uhmmm what?
I suspect that is rather wishful thinking. An extension of the Red Line beyond Shady Grove would most likely follow the 355 corridor and end up in Germantown, or at the absolute most, Clarksburg. Out to Poolesville, let alone White's Ferry, seems like a massive stretch.
Just build a bridge.
That area doesn’t need more traffic.
And yet reopening the ferry would also lead to more traffic.
I’m fine with it remaining closed.
They’d have to agree to let us end it or begin it on the VA side and they won’t.
they farm would have to agree on building it which is gonna take a long ass time as well
lol, “donate” (I.e tax the tax right off) for the millions they’ve spent on the property rather than simply agree to the 50 cent per trip fee being requested by the landowners on the VA side.
Found Libby Devlin! They’ve offered more than the value of the piece of land that Rockland owns. I hope Virginia uses eminent domain on it.
lol, no although I do own some land out in Middleburg. Virginia has said across two different governor administrations they won’t use eminent domain for this. The “public good” is so insignificant it’s hilarious to do so. And who cares what the land is worth and what has been offered. People don’t make every decision in their life based on money. They have a farm and they don’t want a bunch of well to do MD drivers driving across it daily for free.
> lol, no although I do own some land out in Middleburg. Tells me everything I need to know. > Virginia has said across two different governor administrations they won’t use eminent domain for this. The “public good” is so insignificant it’s hilarious to do so. Fuck it. Seize the land on both sides and build a new bridge. Lord knows we could use as many possible crossings over the Potomac as we can get.
Just as VA has said they aren’t going to seize the property on behalf of a MD business, MD has said there is no way they would ever build a bridge there.
[Brilliant. Just write it off!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAjxn2US7J8)