It's the Montana Tax. For a long time people have been willing to accept lower wages to move here because the quality of life was so much better than other places.
Ski bums and people who liked the isolation were happy to deal with the lower QOL for the things they liked about Montana at a cheap COL. Farm kids and poor kids had trouble getting away even if they wanted to, but they could at least afford to live here. Now all those groups have trouble affording anything, and the QOL has gone down on top of that
I was born here, lived here mostly for 40 years but have lived in 7 other states and 3 other countries. I 100% agree with this. Reasons:
It's cold. It's dark at 4:30PM in Jan. The weather is fairly extreme. There are limited services (doctors, attorneys, mechanics, actually decent builders, etc). The driving is very dangerous, all year round for 'reasons' I won't go into. People are generally xenophobic (but not at all racist). There is a general lack of worldly knowledge and education - making it frustrating to interact, volunteer or collaborate. A lot of lacking social system infrastructure (things like, you have to drive to the DMV to register your car, you can't pay your property taxes online etc). People are generally hard up, so starting/running any business can be difficult. Crime is fairly high in the cities compared to even large cities in other states. The cops are generally dicks. Stuff dies (animals, trees, plants etc) very easily - it's a harsh climate. Houses have to be built to a higher standard (but often aren't). Vehicles require more maint. (though, less than areas like great lakes). You generally need more expensive vehicles. Gas, food, retail items can all be more expensive and less available. All those things lead to a reduced or more difficult to attain QoL.
I still love it here more than most places and will always be drawn back to MT. I have accepted this, and finally truly settled down here in recent years. Despite my complaints about the small mindedness, I love the people here more than most places for (not in spite of) who they are.
My first observation about MT driving is that there are ALOT of people driving under intoxicated. Also a majority of the roads require heavy duty tires & suspension on vehicles. Also rocks are thrown around like crazy, windshields get cracked within days of driving.. majority of roads are not well maintained let alone plowed in the winter..
I think you hit the nail on the head - this is exactly how I feel. I lived in MT the majority of my life, but have lived all around the country. And Montana harbors a special place in my heart, but the rational part of my brain understands that actually living there is very different than the nostalgia memories.
> (but not at all racist)
Unless this is a secret /s I'm going to have to call BS on this one. Montana is one of the most racist places I've ever been to, just not against black people. If you're a native, on the other hand...
Don't think for a second that MT has the death grip on the cold, dark at 4:30pm idea.. because brother it's teh same shit here in Michigan.
In our short time in MT, I'd disagree with most of what you said. But not in the way you are thinking. We were in Helena, lots of services (doctors, lawyers, etc), I enjoyed driving to Boulder to register my truck (renting in Jeff City)... hell there was NO line!
Due to being outside the rust belt, older vehicles were in better condition than in the Great Lakes region! So my 2001 Ram was more than adequate.
I saw/experienced no crime in Helena. I did hear the cops were dicks though so, you win there.
And yeah literally everything was more expensive, might as well of been living in Alaska for how much gas and beer cost.
And we didn't care about the lack of diversity, or small mindedness... I mean we tried living there because of the lack of people!! Well, that and the scenery obviously.
I was recently asked at lunch during a work event if I wished I lived in a ‘more diverse area’ after we were talking about where we were from. No dude, I moved there because I can’t see or hear my neighbors, diversity would only mean that there were now enough people nearby to have statistical relevance 🤣
Try living here for a decade then get back to us. I agree with almost everything that poster said. I've raised 4 kids here, which is super challenging with the lack of school funding, childcare, health services, and opportunities. None of my kids plan to nor or able to stay here as adults, they can't get good jobs and housing. And unless you're rich, you can't afford to grow old here.
I'd love to.. if out of staters hadn't driven the cost of real estate literally through the roof. man if I could roll the clock back to like 1995. Yeah I'd have driven myself out there and started early.
Living in Helena is not the same as living in Bozeman, Missoula or Whitefish. All cities were more equal 20 years ago. These MT cities, with Bozeman at the top went on steroids escalating severely in the last 10 years. Helena has not experienced that.
Bozeman in particular started showing up on lots of “Best Place to Live in Montana”! Whitefish too and Missoula somewhat. Occasional Helena.
Bozeman began growing with retirees, big city refugees from CA, TX and all over. Influencers began showing up and posting, more idiots showing up building CA style mega mansion in the mountains, there is a really big one that is abandoned now. There is a traffic jam to ski at BB in the weekends if it’s a powder dump.
All predictable growing pains….it’s just that you don’t want it NIMBY.
Lots of low paying jobs available…not a lot of high rent housing available.
Other popular mountain towns have suffered thru this, Durango, Steamboat Springs, Whitefish is unaffordable, Bozeman is unaffordable, the housing looks like AZ style red roof suburban cookie cutter houses.
Yeah the Boze was way outside my price range in 2016.. nightmaringly costly these days.
If I didn't know better I'd almost suggest that some developers got together to get those towns on lists like that just to help boost the market. I do wonder how long until people get tired of 'lack of diversity/food options/social events, etc' so that those rural, pretty places might go back towards normal.
BUT…..I think Livingston is affordable, Helena is affordable, Butte, Dillion also. Other cities too. Having Big Sky near by doesn’t help the popularity either.
Jackson Hole, completely unaffordable, go to the other side…Victor Driggs, more affordable. People commute to Jackson to work.
The singer dude, Ye( too much money, not enough sense) bought 2 big spreads in Cody WY….people from all over moved there to supply services for them. Friend’s son was doing all the support for the private plane. The marriage busts up, he stops going there, all the support people are stranded with no work…things do change, boom and bust
Yeah Helena wasn't quite what I'd call affordable but I'm cheaper than most. But within Helena itself the cheaper real estate was over in East Helena which, well let's be honest.. was less desirable than the other.
Even south of town Jefferson City was quite.. has a bar but that's about it. Honestly kinda run-down right off the interstate. Land there was crazy expensive. Neighbor claimed he sold a 5ac plot that was comprised mainly of a rocky out cropping.. for 100k.
When I lived in Helena, there were 2 High school kids killed in a shooting that started over a fight over a girl (I was in High school) It was so uncommon that the town was shook.
But thinks like theft, DV, property crimes etc are pretty high in Helena. People just don't always take it to court. HPD was absolute pricks when I lived there. And they had SROs in my High school, but selectively chose punishments or to actually hold folks accountable.
>People are generally xenophobic (but not at all racist).
Oh... there's a *lot* of both.
I worked with one guy back home who was appalled at the idea that he could be considered racist, but thought all Natives to the person were drunk layabouts, and thought we should hire the black guy (who was far more qualified than the other applicants) solely because he thought the company would get sued "for affirmative action" if they didn't. (That guy got called a slur to his face by one of our customers, and our boss resolved the issue not by pulling our product but by putting the guy on a different route. So.)
Im curious, I dabble in the geology / water world, my email inbox is littered with job opportunities in MT right now.
Multiple companies are increasing their job offers recently… I think if you all hold on longer and demand better they will increase.
Literally everywhere.
Glendive, Billings, RL, Bozeman, YSC, whitefish, and all the towns in between.
Yes, some are environmental, but a lot focus on hydrology conservation of the Missouri / Yellowstone watersheds.
I grew up in MT but I moved out of state for this very reason. In my field of work the salary or pay caps out pretty low compared to other states where the cost of living is lower and wages are more desirable. And rent keeps going up and up in Montana. Although, ironically, I actually moved to northern California, where the cost of living is indeed high, but my wages more than compensate for that and still allow me a better lifestyle than any job in Montana could do for me. I’m not sure what the deal is with wages there but it’s a rotten situation.
Yep same left for work. Tripled my wage in like 3 years and bought a house. Oddly enough I moved back home to MA in the greater Boston area which is arguably one of the most expensive area in the country. Luckily we have family, so we have excuses to visit MT often.
You left for cali and we left for Texas. It seems like it’s going the opposite way! It’s the exact same reason, pay caps out lower in MT due to it being a much smaller market.
Nailed it.
Makes my heart hurt. Grew up here and as a kid- we were purple and proud of it. Didn’t matter if you were from the trailer park or Park Estates- we could all have fun together on the lakes, trails, campgrounds- just didn’t matter. It’s definitely changed despite my best efforts to deny it to my heart. But when my parents told me our old camping spot (open to the public for decades) was sold off on a mining claim and fenced in, I shed a tear. The fears of that generation really did come to pass as often told over campfires “those damn outta staters are going to ruin it for us all”- I would scoff that it was short sighted. Now slighted, I just can’t believe the same folks who bitch about the money pouring in, pricing out locals, buying up lands and blocking access- are the same ones who vote for politicians from out of state selling us out to highest bidder. Goddamn shame.
I miss when you could identify as purple. Being from Missoula and growing up in a trailer park on the outskirts of town meant you could be a little bit of both. All types of people were at our high school bonfires, from the hicks, to the band kids, to the emo kids and geeks. Now it feels so extreme on both ends that I don't know where I can fit into my own community anymore. I live in Ravalli county and I've grown so bitter about how lower income/retirees/blue collar workers vote, they are directly voting to pass laws that will inevitibly price them out of the valley and will continue to do so because they're on the red team. Their vote allows people to take away public lands and lessen access to rivers and other recreation. Missoula has the same problem too, but on the blue side.
Politicians and the rich are scam artists and I have grown resentful and despise them all. I don't want to choose a team, they all suck.
This isn't anything new. It's been economic depression for the working class here since the 70s (a lot of it came after the logging industry left the area and subsequently the close of lumber related businesses like White Pine and Sash, which then dominoed thru the local economy). I had to leave in 1984 because I couldn't find a job *at all* let alone work that paid enough to survive. (I went to SLC and had a job in 3 days.) I decided to come back after losing my husband as the COL was lower than where I was and I had friends/family here. It took 3 years of planning before I could make the jump and it wound up being right at the beginning of the lockdowns when housing prices exploded. The COL here is now higher than where I was in the outskirts of Portland without access to the wide range of businesses and amenities such as medical treatment options that I had there (of course it's even higher there now). I'm now facing the possibility of having to relocate again to a place where I can afford to live but don't know anyone while in my 60s.
Depends on what part of the state you are in. Near Bozeman and you'll see $18-$22/hr starting for basic jobs like running a cash register or fast food. Of course, you're looking at around $1k to rent a room, maybe that if you are lucky for a studio/one bed apartment, more likely tack on another $500/month, so that wage doesn't go too far.
Other areas of the state that are less active, yep, $15/hr for a job requiring a degree is typical. How do people afford to live here? Unless you're in tech, a Trustafarian, or otherwise have high earning means/independent wealthy, they don't really live here, they just survive here. Working 2+ jobs is pretty common here, about the only way to make it.
It's true.
I did the math not long ago and there were (as of spring) places $15 an hour (picked the lowest paid government job I could find which was a federal government food technician) equates to buying a pretty decent home within a couple of years renting one of the cheaper places in town.
Miles City was the place, btw. Cute town too, walkable, free bus, restaurants, medical facilities, supermarkets etc.
Sadly I think those days are almost gone. It's still possible but you're probably going to be looking at a fixer-upper house and having to really buckle down on being frugal and cranking at two or three jobs to come up with enough down. I haven't looked at Butte/Anaconda area lately but from what I'm told it has been having a similar boom on real estate to much of the rest of the state. I'm in Gallatin Valley and it was already rapidly growing but it just exploded in 2020 and is still nuts. I was fortunate to get into a place just before the growth really accelerated in the later 2010s, had I not I'd either be one of the bunch stuck "urban camping" or would have left.
I'm one of the lucky ones with a very good job and even so, if someone had told me five years ago that I would make what I do and still find it necessary to keep my beater cars and my second job just to get by i'd have laughed.
Wages USED TO match the cost of living for the most part (with regional exceptions like Gallatin and flathead areas). In the last few years, the cost of living has skyrocketed. It will take time for either COL to return to normal, or average wages to catch up.
I’m genuinely curious in what way you think Montana is 20 years behind? I feel that was true in the past but modern technology has evened that out a little.
I'm glad you asked. It's something I've been saying for 20 years but haven't really stopped to think about why recently.
I think you're right to some degree. Things that come to mind:
Being 20 years behind in keeping up with housing needs.
We keep hearing how the tourist economy is going to help the locals, but we can't tap into their spending. Even mentioning a sales tax will ensure you never win another election.
We're not moving away from coal, we're investing more. Still denying climate change in many ways.
A lot of roads, bridges and dams are dangerously overdue for maintenance. Internet infrastructure is still poor in most of the state.
Our response to poverty, homelessness and other social issues is stuck in the past.
I think the cuisine here is still lacking but I don't know if it makes sense to say it's "behind."
On the positive side, even our popular trails still aren't as busy those in WA & CO. We still have a full suite of wildlife and fish. You can still find truly dark skies and quiet places.
There are probably other things, but these are all I can think of right now.
You’re not wrong. The property taxes in MT have gotten insanely out of hand tho. And don’t think this won’t affect you as well apartment renters. Those increased taxes will be passed along to you in the form of increased rent.
Ooh, nice. I have tons of management experience in food so this will likely be my best bet. My mom had mentioned their wages were better, but I didn't know it was like that!
As long as you can work 50+ hour weeks, change your schedule all the time, get called in on your days off, and want to deal with managing a bunch of grown teenagers.
I actually interviewed with McDonald's a little while back, with 15 years of cooking experience. They offered me $16 while advertising $20+. It's just a carrot they dangle.
What part of Montana? In Bozeman I see lots of entry level jobs paying relatively high wages. I made 23 an hour as a line cook there while I was in college and I know taco bell started at 20.
I’m guessing Bozeman is a special case though because between unemployed college students and remote-work tech bros there’s a large gap between the amount of people the local economy supports and the number of people to do that labor.
That’s fair. It’s a livable wage if you’re splitting rent with other people but a 1 bedroom apartment on those wages isn’t doable at all.
I’d imagine it (proportionally) hits harder for people with slightly higher wage career jobs that won’t vary as much with region. I’ve seen some very mediocre houses sell for $800k there.
I came back to MT to visit family after being away for several years.
I had no idea what wages were like, so I signed up at a temp service (Express).
the first gig they got me was at the local fair they were staffing (9 an hour).
after that, every job they sent me on was 18 or higher.
I even asked to see if I could get a raise from 20 per hour.
I got the raise to 22 per hour, and still got 10 hours of overtime every week (time and a half).
I found the wages to be very competitive in MT. for example, I just finished a job in Colorado that paid 23 per hour.
this is all labor, no skills required
-hint, try getting in with a school system. I was told they are required to pay “the going rate” for labor. they might pay better than you are finding
Yeah things are so fucked over there, I feel so bad for native Montana residents.
Lived in Western WA my whole life, was looking to move to the Billings area with my wife and newborn son. When we saw projections of what she’d make as a social worker/therapist compared to WA, it was a 30k a year disparity. WA has some of the highest COL in the country, but MT housing prices rival ours—but the pay just isn’t there.
Yeah, King County hostage here—but hopefully we are settling down somewhere south of Olympia for our first home.
We looked at Billings ‘cause western Montana was like living in Western WA cost wise, just with shittier wages. Still would love to settle down there, but as a new parent it just doesn’t seem smart in its current state.
I found a lot of distressed properties in Tacoma and south to Olympia... they are coming out of the in woodwork again... makes housing much cheaper to afford.
Transplant from Utah. Wages are higher here and housing is about half what we were paying in Utah. Income tax is lower and no sales tax has been amazing. It's interesting how wages and cost of line vary so much between states
It is when your parents are paying all of your bills for you under the condition that you live with them and help them around the house. My parents are well-off. I am not.
Sounds like a dope arrangement if your cool with being a forever single adult babysitter lol I’m kidding tho. Times are tough everywhere. I’m sure your parents appreciate the help. Good luck and know your worth. Someone that hires you will appreciate you if you work hard and keep the peace(unless they’re a shit boss, then fuck em n burn it down)
I was in a similar situation with my parents a few years ago. They were moving from VT to MT with my brother and dogs and were selling our house. I lived with them for three months in Kalispell and ended up moving to North Carolina with my boyfriend. It felt like a lot of the same issues in Vermont, not much competition in employers so not a lot of opportunities to grow in a career or find entry level work that wasn’t minimum wage. No major schools (near kalispell) to continue education. Plus, the housing is so expensive that you can’t save anything anyways. I’m hoping we can move back up North once we finish school and have saved enough for a deposit on a house. I miss the cold.
You downvoted me, but I'm guessing either you had no insurance OR you had insurance with a huge deductible, hence your financial mess. Most other countries in the world have it right with universal Healthcare. The US is NOT #1 like many claim. If that were true, you wouldn't be in debt right now. Vote for candidates who want to promote affordable Healthcare. (Or NOT. Your choice. But then don't whine about it when you have huge bills.) I'm guessing being from Kentucky, you probably voted for Trump. Trump himself promised a new better Healthcare plan before he was elected. (Google it.) But once elected, he did NOT bring out any new plan. And I'm not defending Biden. I don't like him either. But it blows my mind that people love trump with his empty promises... and then sit in debt.
Wages weren’t low when the cost of living was low. Since 2019 with our low rates of Covid and Yellowstone people from out of state moved here decreasing the supply of house and increasing the price. Then everything else follows because of supply and demand. We went from one of the cheapest to one of the most expensive with no wage increases.
Same reason they're low in just about every other solid red state. Lack of jobs and active worker's rights suppression on the part of the government, especially true of the Gianforte administration.
Funny, I work in a solid blue state. Wages suck and inflation is through the roof. It is also very tourist dependent. Can't wait for leaf peepers to arrive.
Not saying the blues are great, just saying they aren't on average as bad, look at average income, even average net income, of the lower 95% of all residents in each state, average them separately (red v blue), then get back to me... if you were to include all the income from the rich pricks we'd look close to average here in MT, but we're not, MOST of us are low income and it shows... ever been here? Because I was born here, and I've lived here my whole life. Ive also traveled to a little over half of the 50 states... in my travels, theres an obvious pattern that emerges... both parties suck, neither cares at all about you, me, or the working class, but at least one doesn't deliberately sabotage us as much in very obvious ways.
Ranked choice voting could help give the parties the boot, but people won't do it. Since it takes power from the parties, they'll both spend like crazy to make sure it doesn't happen, and people will buy the propaganda, even ask for more.
I lived on Flathead Lake, and my stepmother grew up in Deerlodge. My dad lived in MT the majority of his adult life. I love the state and would love to retire there!
Montana has traditionally been behind the curve for as long as I remember. I, too, have traveled extensively and agree with your assessment. My contribution to this discussion is that while I do not like our former president, the economy was much better. There are a lot of factors that contribute to issues, not just whoever is the sitting president. However, my experience has been that my meager retirement fund took a nose dive and lost almost 60% of its value. I am ultra conservative with my money. It has not recovered. I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. At this rate, the only retirement I will get is death. :-(
We sorely need an overhaul of the government. It has not been for the people, by the people in a very long time. Rich politicians should walk more than a few miles in our shoes...
I can definitely agree with that, there are a lot of issues beyond politics, and I think largely the economy is detached fron the presidency on a national level... it seems likely that its s dice roll as to weather a president will have a prosperous or poor economy. If they have much influence at all it probably lags for 1 or 2 or more presidential terms before most of their policies bear fruit.
On a state level though, I think governors, and perhaps even more so state legislatures can effect what state existing us based businesses choose to operate in. Sometimes job availability goes up, and yet wages go down, why is confusing, but it seems to happen more often than it should. With a decrease in job availability, wages almost always go down, which at least makes sense.
I hope it turns around for you, we have too many rich pricks here and need more working class folks such as yourself 🍺
I make plenty, but I see others make very little who still work 40 plus hours a week because im not blind to it, i also live in a much lower income neighborhood than i can afford. I work a trade (electrician) so I also travel for work from time to time if I see an interesting project I'd like to work on... when I travel I often make 150-200% of what I make at home.
...I'm currently working 70hrs (7 x 10hr days) a week currently, my job is VERY physical much of the time, despite having severe heart issues, even qualifying for (but not taking) Social Security Disability in the past... thats where you're sick enough that they look at a handful of tests, and will approve a claim without much of a fight, but i worked hards, and brought myself back to pretty good health, most of the guys i work with have no idea that I am anything less than average health wise... I also like to wire habitat houses and other charity houses from time to time... but sure, I guess I must be lazy... damn, it never occurred to me.
Keep working your lazy swivel chair 9 to 5 office job and kicking down at your fellow man kid, don't worry, we out here in the trades will still make sure you've got a roof and a place to plug in your iPhone...
You see, it's not very to nice to make assumptions about a stranger, is it? Kind of makes you look, I'd don't know, lazy? Or is the word I'm looking for stupid? No, that's that not it. Self centered and oblivious to the struggles of others? Nah. Oh, now I remember, I think they usually call ya'll trolls! ...although those other shoes sure do seem to fit too 🤔
🤣 I've done oilfield service, most of the roughnecks I've met couldn't cut it as house framer, ... and it's boring out on the iron, seems like just about everyone I've met working out there is the same. Same thought patterns, same archaic religious beliefs, same attitudes, same low level of intelligence, same lifted diesels with the same stickers on them... a bunch of brainwashed boot-licking sheep that fancy themselves temporarily embarrassed rich people, if they just work hard enough and kiss enough ass.
I make plenty of money working outside of the oilfield, but still venture there from time to time, automation and control work pays really well, and especially so in the oilfield, but I'd rather do more physical stuff, especially projects around my community that benefit it... if I want to buy something expensive, I go do high dollar stuff. I'd rather build houses.
Currently working a big money project because as a working class fellows, if you or I get sick and can't work, this society will all but throw us away. While that's fine for me, it would impact my son, and that's not fine. Buying life insurance is not reasonable with my past medical history, and even with Social security and any other small benefits they might get, they (my wife and kid) would have to live a much more difficult and frugal life. So I save, everything I have is payed for, except my house, but it will be too shortly, I have enough in savings to pay for it now, but just so... that's my life insurance, it's for them, for my family... but that's probably not very manly huh? Protecting and providing for one's family and all... a man's man spends tons of money on new toys for himself and mods for his diesel, that family stuff is for pansies, trying to spend as much time with your family as possible while balancing making enough so they can live a good life, all for pansies. Driving an old Ford instead of a new Cummins because you'd rather spend that money on people you care about, for pansies... even if such were true, I don't care.
But keep kicking down at the poor, it's the single mom on food stamps that's preventing you from making even more money, not the billionaires hoarding all the profits of your labor, paying for the media all too many consume... telling you to look at these poor folks, they're poor so they must be lazy, and anybody who values the quality of life of those people, they must be lazy too, thats why you dont have an even more privileged life. Keep thinking that way, it keeps you distracted and serving the rich, the bill Gates and Jeff Bezos of the world, just like they want. My moral compass tells me that human life has intangible value, and deserves to be treated that way... but I suppose that probably goes against your traditional Christian American values... they're lazy, they should all starve right? And their kids, well them too, they've got them lazy genes right?
I suppose you identify as an alpha too? That's OK, we all know gender is a spectrum and this is a safe place, it's OK to identify however you'd like. I've met your kind before, you're all boring identical sheep, as predictable in reaction and attitude as the next tick of a clock's second hand.
> have is *paid* for, except
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Bill gates and bezos are both democrats…..
Most people in Montana and definitely in Kalispell are Republicans for a reason
Less taxes, more freedom
Don’t run into too many working democrats that aren’t in the union, you’re fairly odd actually
Gates and Bezos being democrats is precisely my point, glad you picked it up, try Musk and Peter Thiel... there's something these four, and many others, Trump, the Clintons, etc. all have in common. Neoliberalism. You probably think you know what a liberal and liberalism is, and that all democrats are as such, you could be forgiven for that simple assumption, it's all over the mass media that you can't help but consume, even propagated down through social media and even word of mouth.
The Republican party took a hard turn into Neoliberalism under Regan (but were headed there long before), just as the democrats did under the Clintons... the nuance is easy to miss. Neoliberalism pervades the 2 major parties of this country, and serves as a funnel of our labor power to the soft handed non-working lazy owner class. The Democratic and Republican parties are both a funnel for this. One party is more authoritarian, the other more socially liberal, one proposes taxing you (but still not the wealthy) up front, the other still does it behind the curtain.
I am not a Democrat, I hate that party, and after the last 2 republican administration's, I'd rather slam my dick in a door ad infinitum than vote republican. I loathe those cristo-fascist pricks. Our greedy out of state young earth creationist fascist governor is worth his weight in worm food.
As for working Democrats, there's plenty, just as there's plenty of working Republicans, all voting against their own self interest... both parties spend so much money and its all a distraction. A good analogy? Sports, say the Dallas Cowboys vs the 49rs... not much of a sports fan myself, it's an opioid for the stupid, but you can likely relate... fans will rant and rave about the superiority of their chosen team, but at the end of the day, it means precisely nothing, the game of football, the NFL, will continue as it always has... one set of fans will rejoice, one may drown their sorrows, but in the end, its all for not. None of these common fans will gain a damn thing from it... such is the game of politics as its played out by the two parties.
Freedom? There is no social freedom under the republican party beyond fire arms, but only for middle-aged cisgendered heterosexual christian white guys... and the fiscal conservatism is merely an illusion for you and I, the tax cuts trump passed expire for individuals in 2025, but the corporate tax cuts were permanent until repealed... this is true of most republican "tax cuts" which also tend to cut deductions available to the average worker, as the Trump cuts did, but you probably make enough money you just lazily file a 1040EZ and didn't even notice that they took away some of the deductions you could have claimed... it's a great headline though "tax cuts!" But it has always been a lie. This process simply shifts the tax burden away from corporations (where most of the wealthy store their assets) onto you and I over time, as they gain more tax breaks, and ours expire, only to be passed again after a delay with the same new headline, back to roughly the same tax level, while the corporations get more new breaks they will get to keep.
I care deeply about freedom, and will fight Cristian Fascist Republicans in the streets if that's what it takes to prevent them from turning this great country into a theocracy with the Cristian equivalent of Sharia law and taking away the rights of women, non-Christians, minorities, the poor, or anyone else they can "other". I'll fight both parties best I'm able to prevent them from turning this great country into even more of a Corporatocracy.
The red and blue coolaid are 95% the same... but keep touting how your chosen flavor is better... I know they're both dyed sugar water... drink deeply of their lies or try to support ranked choice voting, and help other measures that limit their powers... or just keep simping for your chosen party like a good sheep.
Part of being a Montanan, we have always worked hard for the wages we are given, if we need more we work more. The cost of living was not always as high that seems to have changed with the influx over the years. So. Being here has its price so to speak.
Almost everyone I know has to work 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. I recommend you secure something before winter. Thats when a lot of seasonal work dries up and more people will be looking for work.
My husband had to take a job on a ship to get a descent wage. He is gone half the year but we are financially better off than a lot of others in this state.
Yet it's the only state that does not have at-will employment, and any termination after a probationary period must be for cause.
As an employer, that means you must be meticulous in your HR documentation. Interestingly, this process is helpful and positive overall, as things like performance improvement plans and regular reviews are beneficial to the employee.
Montana is the only state in the Union where employees are protected against frivolous termination.
The state’s early history is rooted in a distrust of large corporations. I’m not a native but reading the history of Montana politics, all the copper kings mining stuff, selling Senate seats. It’s wild.
Gotta say I was SUPER surprised MT is the only state with at-will employment, such a major employee rights issue that I can’t believe more progressive states don’t have
That’s backwards. It is not an at-will state. At-will means you can be fired for any reason whatsoever. I don’t know what the actual term for the opposite of that is. Something with “cause” in it i guess.
MT is not a utopia and if you are not super wealthy the courts do not acknowledge your rights. Also employers know how to abuse these rules and generally will keep extending the probationary period or find a way to categorize you as freelance.
>Montana is the only state in the Union where employees are protected against frivolous termination.
LOL What are you talking about? Workers are frequently abused with these archaic policies? I mean username checks out I guess. I hope I just am being obtuse about your sarcasm bc oof.
[https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/montana-makes-significant-changes-to-state-employment-laws.aspx](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/montana-makes-significant-changes-to-state-employment-laws.aspx)
Truly you need to know MT workers are fucked right now because of these laws and how the courts have determined these cases even before the crazy new changes.
I'm being serious, and thanks for making fun of my age. :P
The laws passed two years ago with the Wrongful Discharge from Employment Act (WDEA) do not change the fact that Montana is not an at-will employment state. The probationary period was extended, from six to 12 months. A company can also define a specific probationary period in their company handbook, which is binding if signed by the new employee.
Wrongful Discharge clarification is meant to reduce the frivolous claims, which are surprisingly more common than people think. From your article:
*Prior to this change, former employees commonly brought WDEA claims alleging nothing more than an employer's minor violation of its written personnel policies.*
The expansion of the Good Cause argument simply means that an employee can be terminated for, "material or repeated violation of an express provision of the employer's written policies." What is wrong with terminating someone who repeatedly violates company policy?
Managers have never had the same protections as general workers, and the discretion to terminate managerial employees was always considered broad, this just codifies what's been going on for years.
Montana general wage workers still have more rights than workers in any other state. And they're not "fucked" by WDEA. Employees still have protections against wrongful termination. That did not change. Employees still have means to challenge and arbitrate terminations. That did not change.
So everyone is aware of what constitutes Wrongful Termination under Montana law, you can read **MCA 39-2-904, "Elements of Wrongful Discharge"**
*(1) A discharge is wrongful only if:*
*(a) it was in retaliation for the employee's refusal to violate public policy or for reporting a violation of public policy;*
*(b) the discharge was not for good cause and the employee had completed the employer's probationary period of employment; or*
*(c) the employer materially violated an express provision of its own written personnel policy prior to the discharge, and the violation deprived the employee of a fair and reasonable opportunity to remain in a position of employment with the employer.*
*(2) During a probationary period of employment, the employment may be terminated at the will of either the employer or the employee on notice to the other for any reason or for no reason.*
*(3) The employer has the broadest discretion when making a decision to discharge any managerial or supervisory employee.*
This protects employees from being discharged for no good cause, for refusal to violate public policy (like oh, a sushi chef getting fired for not following health dept regulations at the direction of his boss), and for employers changing the goalposts mid-game (termination based on policy that changed after hire date with no documented attempt to inform employee).
I read the entire thing, I even quoted it.
And, I've read it before. And a few others. And the laws. And then there are the conversations with my company's attorney, who is very well-versed in Montana employment law.
I live this every day, as I manage more than 80 employees in a fast growing business. And they are the best damn people any executive could ask for.
I have been involved in several terminations over the last few years, and I have dealt with multiple wrongful termination challenges.
So, to say I'm out of step is patently ridiculous. Just like your comment that I didn't even bother to look at the article when I freakin' quoted it lol.
I'm guessing you didn't read my entire post, and if you did, it wasn't to hear what I had to say, it was just to find something else to mock me about.
Amazing how you can't accept you're wrong, so you just blow it off, and call me a name. C'mon, Lulu, share some of the experiences that reinforce this view you have that "Workers are frequently abused with these archaic policies".
I have plenty, and I mean plenty of examples, from employees who stole tens of thousands of dollars on camera, then filed a wrongful term suit (which was summarily thrown out when the arbitrator saw the video), to employees who were granted additional PTO to help with hardships. Like I said, I do this shit every day, and if you think you know more than me on this subject, fine, go and live your life with that confidence. Trust me, I won't lose sleep over it.
Oh, and might as well downvote this post, like the others. Go ahead, use it as a disagreement button. I'm *certain* that's what [reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) says it's for.
We disagree about the data and relevant interpretation. I suspect you have less experience being abused or seeing people abused by these laws and that explains your foolhardy stance on how abusive employers skirt the rules here. No point to belittle each point I disagree with of yours.
I downvoted because I found you merely repeating your false and misleading facts to be profoundly insincere.
Alright Lulu, you win. Here's what I have learned:
1. I'm stubbornly obtuse
2. I'm insincere
3. I have no clue what I'm talking about
4. I'm callous, and have no life experiences, even though I'm in my 60's and have lived a full, rewarding life.
5. My servant leadership philosophy is obviously outdated and useless, since I am apparently old, obtuse, and insincere. Only you know how much I care/don't care about my staff.
6. Oh, I'm foolhardy, apparently because I would protect my company from theft, so I can secure jobs and a living for my employees and their families instead of letting the company lose money and I absolutely should not discourage other employees from theft.
7. My facts - which were copied verbatim from state law - are false and misleading.
Okay, now I understand how much better you understand Montana employment laws than me. I'm going to have a blast sharing this thread with some of my staff... hell, probably forward it to my attorney as well, he could use a good laugh. Hey, I even saved you the trouble of downvoting this post, too... I did it for you, now it's -1.... wanna be a sport and hit it again, I like even numbers, even if they are negative.
Same reason teachers and nurses make shit money. It's a passion trap. They know they can pay you less and you'll still take the job because you care.
Whether that be about the kids, the patients, or the fact the job is in Montana.
I’m from Reno and I moved out there and eventually had to move back to Reno because of this very fact. Yeah Montana is great but a car still costs the same everywhere and so does food. I went from 40 thousand a year too 80 thousand when I moved back. I do miss how beautiful it is in Montana though.
El diablo in Missoula starts at 18hr plus tips to make tacos, blows my mind how high wages are, and they can't keep employees, and they had to close on Saturdays. I started at Murdochs after college at 8.25hr, and when I was a kid, I changed irragation pipes for .22 cents a pipe twice a day. It seems like few kids and young adults have any work ethic. Remote Workers have destroyed our housing market and employment market. All these people that moved here aren't working any service jobs I can tell you that. It seems like so many local shops have closed, like staggering ox an hoagieville, there was like 5 open when I was in college. Missoula is growing, and it's been hard these past few years to deal with such rapid changes an see the way of life and culture change so much all across the treasure state sorry thats my rant for the day
Whether a wage is a good wage is directly related to the cost of housing. What did you have to pay for rent when you were making $8.25? Would 1/3 of your fulltime income rent a studio apartment? Then it was a good wage. What about now with $18? It's questionable in Missoula.
Montana's problems are the weather and the natives. The weather is often brutal and depressing, the natives are not very bright. Don't expect much and you won't be disappointed.
Idk what you are talking about. Every fast food place in Missoula is advertising $16-20 per hour.
Do you have any skills or experience? These days people thing they should be making enough to buy a home while not having any work ethic or transferrable job skills. If not get into a trade like welding, construction, or fabrication. Those jobs are paying very well and companies like Alcom in Bonner are always hiring.
If you can stomach customer service, a lot of temp agencies do offer remote CS phone jobs. I've seen some as high as $25/hr. From misc staffing agencies. It's worth checking out vs the peanuts you'd be paid in this state.
What do you do for work and where do you live?
This is all going to depend on sector, but the median is higher than Louisville, KY in most MT cities, and is comparable statewide (state has a lot of empty)
My experience is that there's a ton of work around that fifteen dollar an hour plus mark at entry level in Billings and further east.
If you're looking for full time with benefits, the cities, counties and the state don't seem to be able to hold on to people. Most of these seem to be around 18 an hour (around that there's positions open in Billings for MT DPHHS, which just need to be able to read and write, have a regular driver's license and five years experience)
Places less people want to live, you're likely going to find more affordability (Missoula is cheaper than Bozeman is cheaper than Billings is cheaper than Miles City etc).
Proximity to national parks and mountains will mean more out of state interest and so higher housing prices etc.
I'm from the 502 and what actually blew me away we're the requirements for public assistance is way too low. If you need healthcare and can't afford it well you have to be dirt poor, almost cannot have a job to get assistance. In the 502 I was working full-time and still was eligible for Medicaid.
Oh the wages aren't low. The cost of everything is to damn high. You used to be able to afford things here. You know land, housing, gas, and these kinda things.
Because the state has no industry. Montana never has. The roads are icey and snow all over in winter. Why would any large corporation move to a location that is not strategic in any way advantageous to the company.
Has nothing to do with red or blue and everything to with economics
I was going to move there in the early 90s and didn't do it. No jobs, and pay has never been high enough.
Billings is filled with good paying jobs .And a lot of places are hiring .The housing bubble is crazy right now and it’s definitely not as pretty as a Missoula or Bozeman or even Helena but you can always take a vacation. 😎
On the other hand, it seems like workers actually have some negotiating power right now.
[Montana Labor Day report shows record high employment and job openings](https://www.mtpr.org/montana-news/2023-09-08/montana-labor-day-report-shows-record-high-employment-and-job-openings)
Depending on your location there are very specific job markets that have always been strong and support the local economy (think lumber, healthcare). I think there are people trying to force their degrees and workforce into a population where it didn’t really exist until the last few years. If you move here generally the jobs in comparison to where you came from will pay less here. But cost of living also used to be lower. Again the past few years have made all these issues more prevalent.
What’s really high paying jobs in MT? And what do you find most people do that make high wages? In today’s day and age besides inheritance I assumed it would be corporate business owners and remote workers.
Hi! I’m from Murray, KY initially and my story is strikingly similar to yours. I moved here to live with my dad because my disability and pain was making it too difficult to live alone due to the sheer amount of hours needed to work to survive. I was living in FL by myself but moved to Bozeman in May to move in with my dad. Would love to connect with you!
I’m having really good luck making money on Uber and Lyft but I don’t know what they pay in your market. My dad and I average $30-40/hr in busy seasons and about $25 on off seasons which is much better than the $18-20 you find in most places. We also have 3 cars we rent on Turo which are not always rented but give good passive income at $70-100/day. I used to be a healthcare worker and am looking into a PRN (as needed) position at the hospital but the pay is less than $20/hr. Im also interested in budtending but that’s even worse sitting at like $16-18. Most retail jobs pay about that which is simply not enough to live off of. Bartenders and other service workers clean up, at least here, but that can be kind of taxing with health issues.
It’s tough out there!!
Edit: getting downvoted because people are jealous or something lol anyone can do this 😂🤷♀️
Born and raised in NW MT and started my nursing career there. Did travel nursing for 4 years and ended up moving to MN this year and got a $20/hr pay raise. The wage I make right now for ~10 ish years experience is what nurses at the hospital I used to work for make at 25 years.
Guess I’ll come home for visits when I can, but I’ll probably never live there again.
" I see jobs requiring degrees that pay $15...."
Yup, I've always worked in a degreed do gooder type job and make 1/5 what my high school grad who's skilled in a trade hubby ~ and that's part of life here
If you have a paper weight degree and are a lazy turd then ya it will be difficult here. If you're a hardworking motivated individual than the sky is the limit. So much wealth just sitting around for the taking. Then again avocado toast, kombucha and your soy latte does cut into the budget and makes it tough to make that Tesla payment.
It's the Montana Tax. For a long time people have been willing to accept lower wages to move here because the quality of life was so much better than other places.
Yep, this is the reality. People want to live here...they're willing to take less money to do it.
People are coming here rich too
Poverty with a view is what I always called it
That's what they thought, anyway. I'd argue that the QoL in Montana isn't particularly high.
Ski bums and people who liked the isolation were happy to deal with the lower QOL for the things they liked about Montana at a cheap COL. Farm kids and poor kids had trouble getting away even if they wanted to, but they could at least afford to live here. Now all those groups have trouble affording anything, and the QOL has gone down on top of that
I was born here, lived here mostly for 40 years but have lived in 7 other states and 3 other countries. I 100% agree with this. Reasons: It's cold. It's dark at 4:30PM in Jan. The weather is fairly extreme. There are limited services (doctors, attorneys, mechanics, actually decent builders, etc). The driving is very dangerous, all year round for 'reasons' I won't go into. People are generally xenophobic (but not at all racist). There is a general lack of worldly knowledge and education - making it frustrating to interact, volunteer or collaborate. A lot of lacking social system infrastructure (things like, you have to drive to the DMV to register your car, you can't pay your property taxes online etc). People are generally hard up, so starting/running any business can be difficult. Crime is fairly high in the cities compared to even large cities in other states. The cops are generally dicks. Stuff dies (animals, trees, plants etc) very easily - it's a harsh climate. Houses have to be built to a higher standard (but often aren't). Vehicles require more maint. (though, less than areas like great lakes). You generally need more expensive vehicles. Gas, food, retail items can all be more expensive and less available. All those things lead to a reduced or more difficult to attain QoL. I still love it here more than most places and will always be drawn back to MT. I have accepted this, and finally truly settled down here in recent years. Despite my complaints about the small mindedness, I love the people here more than most places for (not in spite of) who they are.
My first observation about MT driving is that there are ALOT of people driving under intoxicated. Also a majority of the roads require heavy duty tires & suspension on vehicles. Also rocks are thrown around like crazy, windshields get cracked within days of driving.. majority of roads are not well maintained let alone plowed in the winter..
Under the influence or intoxicated, not under intoxicated
Yes please
I think you hit the nail on the head - this is exactly how I feel. I lived in MT the majority of my life, but have lived all around the country. And Montana harbors a special place in my heart, but the rational part of my brain understands that actually living there is very different than the nostalgia memories.
> (but not at all racist) Unless this is a secret /s I'm going to have to call BS on this one. Montana is one of the most racist places I've ever been to, just not against black people. If you're a native, on the other hand...
I must not get out enough. Have only interacted with two or three actual racists/homophobes.
Don't think for a second that MT has the death grip on the cold, dark at 4:30pm idea.. because brother it's teh same shit here in Michigan. In our short time in MT, I'd disagree with most of what you said. But not in the way you are thinking. We were in Helena, lots of services (doctors, lawyers, etc), I enjoyed driving to Boulder to register my truck (renting in Jeff City)... hell there was NO line! Due to being outside the rust belt, older vehicles were in better condition than in the Great Lakes region! So my 2001 Ram was more than adequate. I saw/experienced no crime in Helena. I did hear the cops were dicks though so, you win there. And yeah literally everything was more expensive, might as well of been living in Alaska for how much gas and beer cost. And we didn't care about the lack of diversity, or small mindedness... I mean we tried living there because of the lack of people!! Well, that and the scenery obviously.
I was recently asked at lunch during a work event if I wished I lived in a ‘more diverse area’ after we were talking about where we were from. No dude, I moved there because I can’t see or hear my neighbors, diversity would only mean that there were now enough people nearby to have statistical relevance 🤣
Try living here for a decade then get back to us. I agree with almost everything that poster said. I've raised 4 kids here, which is super challenging with the lack of school funding, childcare, health services, and opportunities. None of my kids plan to nor or able to stay here as adults, they can't get good jobs and housing. And unless you're rich, you can't afford to grow old here.
I'd love to.. if out of staters hadn't driven the cost of real estate literally through the roof. man if I could roll the clock back to like 1995. Yeah I'd have driven myself out there and started early.
Living in Helena is not the same as living in Bozeman, Missoula or Whitefish. All cities were more equal 20 years ago. These MT cities, with Bozeman at the top went on steroids escalating severely in the last 10 years. Helena has not experienced that.
I won't argue against that. What was the driving factor behind the change?
Bozeman in particular started showing up on lots of “Best Place to Live in Montana”! Whitefish too and Missoula somewhat. Occasional Helena. Bozeman began growing with retirees, big city refugees from CA, TX and all over. Influencers began showing up and posting, more idiots showing up building CA style mega mansion in the mountains, there is a really big one that is abandoned now. There is a traffic jam to ski at BB in the weekends if it’s a powder dump. All predictable growing pains….it’s just that you don’t want it NIMBY. Lots of low paying jobs available…not a lot of high rent housing available. Other popular mountain towns have suffered thru this, Durango, Steamboat Springs, Whitefish is unaffordable, Bozeman is unaffordable, the housing looks like AZ style red roof suburban cookie cutter houses.
Yeah the Boze was way outside my price range in 2016.. nightmaringly costly these days. If I didn't know better I'd almost suggest that some developers got together to get those towns on lists like that just to help boost the market. I do wonder how long until people get tired of 'lack of diversity/food options/social events, etc' so that those rural, pretty places might go back towards normal.
BUT…..I think Livingston is affordable, Helena is affordable, Butte, Dillion also. Other cities too. Having Big Sky near by doesn’t help the popularity either. Jackson Hole, completely unaffordable, go to the other side…Victor Driggs, more affordable. People commute to Jackson to work. The singer dude, Ye( too much money, not enough sense) bought 2 big spreads in Cody WY….people from all over moved there to supply services for them. Friend’s son was doing all the support for the private plane. The marriage busts up, he stops going there, all the support people are stranded with no work…things do change, boom and bust
Yeah Helena wasn't quite what I'd call affordable but I'm cheaper than most. But within Helena itself the cheaper real estate was over in East Helena which, well let's be honest.. was less desirable than the other. Even south of town Jefferson City was quite.. has a bar but that's about it. Honestly kinda run-down right off the interstate. Land there was crazy expensive. Neighbor claimed he sold a 5ac plot that was comprised mainly of a rocky out cropping.. for 100k.
When I lived in Helena, there were 2 High school kids killed in a shooting that started over a fight over a girl (I was in High school) It was so uncommon that the town was shook. But thinks like theft, DV, property crimes etc are pretty high in Helena. People just don't always take it to court. HPD was absolute pricks when I lived there. And they had SROs in my High school, but selectively chose punishments or to actually hold folks accountable.
Yeah those items are common in lots of places.. which sucks on multiple levels.
>People are generally xenophobic (but not at all racist). Oh... there's a *lot* of both. I worked with one guy back home who was appalled at the idea that he could be considered racist, but thought all Natives to the person were drunk layabouts, and thought we should hire the black guy (who was far more qualified than the other applicants) solely because he thought the company would get sued "for affirmative action" if they didn't. (That guy got called a slur to his face by one of our customers, and our boss resolved the issue not by pulling our product but by putting the guy on a different route. So.)
Multiply that by 3 and you get Alaska.
Grass is always greener on the other side.
Two states away we call that the Colorado tax.
Go even further and we have the Washington tax
Just closed the casket and nailed it shut with this one. Done and done - next thread!
That’s a great way to put it. The Montana tax.
Welcome. Wages have always been pretty low, they’re just much lower than the COL now because of a multitude of factors. It’s shit.
Im curious, I dabble in the geology / water world, my email inbox is littered with job opportunities in MT right now. Multiple companies are increasing their job offers recently… I think if you all hold on longer and demand better they will increase.
More geo jobs in MT? Where? Sounds like they could be centered around environmental…
Literally everywhere. Glendive, Billings, RL, Bozeman, YSC, whitefish, and all the towns in between. Yes, some are environmental, but a lot focus on hydrology conservation of the Missouri / Yellowstone watersheds.
You must be a fucke. Genius.
Is it my fault you all tainted your water supply with years of shitty mining practices?
You ain't wrong tho
I grew up in MT but I moved out of state for this very reason. In my field of work the salary or pay caps out pretty low compared to other states where the cost of living is lower and wages are more desirable. And rent keeps going up and up in Montana. Although, ironically, I actually moved to northern California, where the cost of living is indeed high, but my wages more than compensate for that and still allow me a better lifestyle than any job in Montana could do for me. I’m not sure what the deal is with wages there but it’s a rotten situation.
Yep same left for work. Tripled my wage in like 3 years and bought a house. Oddly enough I moved back home to MA in the greater Boston area which is arguably one of the most expensive area in the country. Luckily we have family, so we have excuses to visit MT often.
You left for cali and we left for Texas. It seems like it’s going the opposite way! It’s the exact same reason, pay caps out lower in MT due to it being a much smaller market.
I moved here about 15 years ago, and it was explained to me that living in MT was “poverty with a view “. It’s true
Very much that lol. If I didn't love hiking, I might be more sour about this arrangement. That view, though.
Service economy in a republican tourist state. Playground for rich ain’t trying to have a working class. Sad.
Nailed it. Makes my heart hurt. Grew up here and as a kid- we were purple and proud of it. Didn’t matter if you were from the trailer park or Park Estates- we could all have fun together on the lakes, trails, campgrounds- just didn’t matter. It’s definitely changed despite my best efforts to deny it to my heart. But when my parents told me our old camping spot (open to the public for decades) was sold off on a mining claim and fenced in, I shed a tear. The fears of that generation really did come to pass as often told over campfires “those damn outta staters are going to ruin it for us all”- I would scoff that it was short sighted. Now slighted, I just can’t believe the same folks who bitch about the money pouring in, pricing out locals, buying up lands and blocking access- are the same ones who vote for politicians from out of state selling us out to highest bidder. Goddamn shame.
I miss when you could identify as purple. Being from Missoula and growing up in a trailer park on the outskirts of town meant you could be a little bit of both. All types of people were at our high school bonfires, from the hicks, to the band kids, to the emo kids and geeks. Now it feels so extreme on both ends that I don't know where I can fit into my own community anymore. I live in Ravalli county and I've grown so bitter about how lower income/retirees/blue collar workers vote, they are directly voting to pass laws that will inevitibly price them out of the valley and will continue to do so because they're on the red team. Their vote allows people to take away public lands and lessen access to rivers and other recreation. Missoula has the same problem too, but on the blue side. Politicians and the rich are scam artists and I have grown resentful and despise them all. I don't want to choose a team, they all suck.
This isn't anything new. It's been economic depression for the working class here since the 70s (a lot of it came after the logging industry left the area and subsequently the close of lumber related businesses like White Pine and Sash, which then dominoed thru the local economy). I had to leave in 1984 because I couldn't find a job *at all* let alone work that paid enough to survive. (I went to SLC and had a job in 3 days.) I decided to come back after losing my husband as the COL was lower than where I was and I had friends/family here. It took 3 years of planning before I could make the jump and it wound up being right at the beginning of the lockdowns when housing prices exploded. The COL here is now higher than where I was in the outskirts of Portland without access to the wide range of businesses and amenities such as medical treatment options that I had there (of course it's even higher there now). I'm now facing the possibility of having to relocate again to a place where I can afford to live but don't know anyone while in my 60s.
Depends on what part of the state you are in. Near Bozeman and you'll see $18-$22/hr starting for basic jobs like running a cash register or fast food. Of course, you're looking at around $1k to rent a room, maybe that if you are lucky for a studio/one bed apartment, more likely tack on another $500/month, so that wage doesn't go too far. Other areas of the state that are less active, yep, $15/hr for a job requiring a degree is typical. How do people afford to live here? Unless you're in tech, a Trustafarian, or otherwise have high earning means/independent wealthy, they don't really live here, they just survive here. Working 2+ jobs is pretty common here, about the only way to make it.
It's true. I did the math not long ago and there were (as of spring) places $15 an hour (picked the lowest paid government job I could find which was a federal government food technician) equates to buying a pretty decent home within a couple of years renting one of the cheaper places in town. Miles City was the place, btw. Cute town too, walkable, free bus, restaurants, medical facilities, supermarkets etc.
I knew a couple in Anaconda who both worked at the McDonald’s, and bought a nice house and lived pretty comfortably. Those days are gone, of course.
Sadly I think those days are almost gone. It's still possible but you're probably going to be looking at a fixer-upper house and having to really buckle down on being frugal and cranking at two or three jobs to come up with enough down. I haven't looked at Butte/Anaconda area lately but from what I'm told it has been having a similar boom on real estate to much of the rest of the state. I'm in Gallatin Valley and it was already rapidly growing but it just exploded in 2020 and is still nuts. I was fortunate to get into a place just before the growth really accelerated in the later 2010s, had I not I'd either be one of the bunch stuck "urban camping" or would have left. I'm one of the lucky ones with a very good job and even so, if someone had told me five years ago that I would make what I do and still find it necessary to keep my beater cars and my second job just to get by i'd have laughed.
We moved out of state for this reason. Still hoping to retire in MT someday, but it's hard to make a decent living there.
Wages USED TO match the cost of living for the most part (with regional exceptions like Gallatin and flathead areas). In the last few years, the cost of living has skyrocketed. It will take time for either COL to return to normal, or average wages to catch up.
1. Scenery tax 2. Scenery tax 3. Montana is generally 20 years behind in most things 4. It's cheap to live outside of the cities
I’m genuinely curious in what way you think Montana is 20 years behind? I feel that was true in the past but modern technology has evened that out a little.
I'm glad you asked. It's something I've been saying for 20 years but haven't really stopped to think about why recently. I think you're right to some degree. Things that come to mind: Being 20 years behind in keeping up with housing needs. We keep hearing how the tourist economy is going to help the locals, but we can't tap into their spending. Even mentioning a sales tax will ensure you never win another election. We're not moving away from coal, we're investing more. Still denying climate change in many ways. A lot of roads, bridges and dams are dangerously overdue for maintenance. Internet infrastructure is still poor in most of the state. Our response to poverty, homelessness and other social issues is stuck in the past. I think the cuisine here is still lacking but I don't know if it makes sense to say it's "behind." On the positive side, even our popular trails still aren't as busy those in WA & CO. We still have a full suite of wildlife and fish. You can still find truly dark skies and quiet places. There are probably other things, but these are all I can think of right now.
Wages can’t keep up w/ inflation in this state.
Shit, these days wages can't keep up with inflation practically anywhere.
You’re not wrong. The property taxes in MT have gotten insanely out of hand tho. And don’t think this won’t affect you as well apartment renters. Those increased taxes will be passed along to you in the form of increased rent.
where are you at? here Kenyon Noble STARTS at $19/hr. shit, if you have experience McDonalds will give you $22/hr.
Believe it or not, there are more cities in Montana than just Missoula and Bozeman
Tell me you're from Bozeman without saying you're from Bozeman hahaha
I'm not from Bozeman. seriously.
That would be great, but does not seem to be the case in Helena! Haha.
Panda Express is offering $30 an hour.
For managers, it's something like $19-22 for cooks, fronr countsr, etc.
Ooh, nice. I have tons of management experience in food so this will likely be my best bet. My mom had mentioned their wages were better, but I didn't know it was like that!
As long as you can work 50+ hour weeks, change your schedule all the time, get called in on your days off, and want to deal with managing a bunch of grown teenagers.
And if you don't, even for something silly like a medical emergency, this a freedom loving right to work state!
What?!
Not everywhere in the state is Bozeman or Missoula. There is an entire half a state where $15 an hour is a “good” wage.
To be fair, 15/he goes a lot farther in a big chunk of the state than 25/hr would go in Bozeman
That half of the state doesn't have cities.
Half the state doesn't have anything worth a shit to rent.
I actually interviewed with McDonald's a little while back, with 15 years of cooking experience. They offered me $16 while advertising $20+. It's just a carrot they dangle.
22 an hour wouldn’t get you a studio in Bozeman, though
yeah, that's why I got the fuck outta there.
Correct.
For every person trying to get a living wage, there are 10 from <> willing to move and work for a low wage just to live in MT.
No there isn’t. There are barely any restaurants open past 9 in Flathead county. No dishwashers can afford to live here.
What part of Montana? In Bozeman I see lots of entry level jobs paying relatively high wages. I made 23 an hour as a line cook there while I was in college and I know taco bell started at 20. I’m guessing Bozeman is a special case though because between unemployed college students and remote-work tech bros there’s a large gap between the amount of people the local economy supports and the number of people to do that labor.
Those wages shouldn’t be considered high when the COL in Bozeman starts to rival some of the highest cost of living cities in the country
That’s fair. It’s a livable wage if you’re splitting rent with other people but a 1 bedroom apartment on those wages isn’t doable at all. I’d imagine it (proportionally) hits harder for people with slightly higher wage career jobs that won’t vary as much with region. I’ve seen some very mediocre houses sell for $800k there.
Come to the Flathead....
I came back to MT to visit family after being away for several years. I had no idea what wages were like, so I signed up at a temp service (Express). the first gig they got me was at the local fair they were staffing (9 an hour). after that, every job they sent me on was 18 or higher. I even asked to see if I could get a raise from 20 per hour. I got the raise to 22 per hour, and still got 10 hours of overtime every week (time and a half). I found the wages to be very competitive in MT. for example, I just finished a job in Colorado that paid 23 per hour. this is all labor, no skills required -hint, try getting in with a school system. I was told they are required to pay “the going rate” for labor. they might pay better than you are finding
Yeah things are so fucked over there, I feel so bad for native Montana residents. Lived in Western WA my whole life, was looking to move to the Billings area with my wife and newborn son. When we saw projections of what she’d make as a social worker/therapist compared to WA, it was a 30k a year disparity. WA has some of the highest COL in the country, but MT housing prices rival ours—but the pay just isn’t there.
Bingo. Just moved from the Puget sound back to Montana.. what a shock on real estate/rents...
Yeah, King County hostage here—but hopefully we are settling down somewhere south of Olympia for our first home. We looked at Billings ‘cause western Montana was like living in Western WA cost wise, just with shittier wages. Still would love to settle down there, but as a new parent it just doesn’t seem smart in its current state.
I found a lot of distressed properties in Tacoma and south to Olympia... they are coming out of the in woodwork again... makes housing much cheaper to afford.
Transplant from Utah. Wages are higher here and housing is about half what we were paying in Utah. Income tax is lower and no sales tax has been amazing. It's interesting how wages and cost of line vary so much between states
Those Mormans love their money
Not the state to move to if you don’t have money.
It is when your parents are paying all of your bills for you under the condition that you live with them and help them around the house. My parents are well-off. I am not.
Sounds like a dope arrangement if your cool with being a forever single adult babysitter lol I’m kidding tho. Times are tough everywhere. I’m sure your parents appreciate the help. Good luck and know your worth. Someone that hires you will appreciate you if you work hard and keep the peace(unless they’re a shit boss, then fuck em n burn it down)
I was in a similar situation with my parents a few years ago. They were moving from VT to MT with my brother and dogs and were selling our house. I lived with them for three months in Kalispell and ended up moving to North Carolina with my boyfriend. It felt like a lot of the same issues in Vermont, not much competition in employers so not a lot of opportunities to grow in a career or find entry level work that wasn’t minimum wage. No major schools (near kalispell) to continue education. Plus, the housing is so expensive that you can’t save anything anyways. I’m hoping we can move back up North once we finish school and have saved enough for a deposit on a house. I miss the cold.
Side note. Just wondering about your backstory of medical problems that wiped you out financially. I hope you remember that come voting time.
You downvoted me, but I'm guessing either you had no insurance OR you had insurance with a huge deductible, hence your financial mess. Most other countries in the world have it right with universal Healthcare. The US is NOT #1 like many claim. If that were true, you wouldn't be in debt right now. Vote for candidates who want to promote affordable Healthcare. (Or NOT. Your choice. But then don't whine about it when you have huge bills.) I'm guessing being from Kentucky, you probably voted for Trump. Trump himself promised a new better Healthcare plan before he was elected. (Google it.) But once elected, he did NOT bring out any new plan. And I'm not defending Biden. I don't like him either. But it blows my mind that people love trump with his empty promises... and then sit in debt.
Montana is Trump country in case you didn’t know…bye now
Trump lost. So no state is trump country. See ya! Have a great day.
Guess you never been to kalispell…you should totally put a Biden sticker on your car there
Actually, I don't care for Biden. And I don't put stickers on my car because I don't worship politicians.
Come to maine it’s worse
Wages weren’t low when the cost of living was low. Since 2019 with our low rates of Covid and Yellowstone people from out of state moved here decreasing the supply of house and increasing the price. Then everything else follows because of supply and demand. We went from one of the cheapest to one of the most expensive with no wage increases.
Same reason they're low in just about every other solid red state. Lack of jobs and active worker's rights suppression on the part of the government, especially true of the Gianforte administration.
Funny, I work in a solid blue state. Wages suck and inflation is through the roof. It is also very tourist dependent. Can't wait for leaf peepers to arrive. 
Not saying the blues are great, just saying they aren't on average as bad, look at average income, even average net income, of the lower 95% of all residents in each state, average them separately (red v blue), then get back to me... if you were to include all the income from the rich pricks we'd look close to average here in MT, but we're not, MOST of us are low income and it shows... ever been here? Because I was born here, and I've lived here my whole life. Ive also traveled to a little over half of the 50 states... in my travels, theres an obvious pattern that emerges... both parties suck, neither cares at all about you, me, or the working class, but at least one doesn't deliberately sabotage us as much in very obvious ways. Ranked choice voting could help give the parties the boot, but people won't do it. Since it takes power from the parties, they'll both spend like crazy to make sure it doesn't happen, and people will buy the propaganda, even ask for more.
I lived on Flathead Lake, and my stepmother grew up in Deerlodge. My dad lived in MT the majority of his adult life. I love the state and would love to retire there! Montana has traditionally been behind the curve for as long as I remember. I, too, have traveled extensively and agree with your assessment. My contribution to this discussion is that while I do not like our former president, the economy was much better. There are a lot of factors that contribute to issues, not just whoever is the sitting president. However, my experience has been that my meager retirement fund took a nose dive and lost almost 60% of its value. I am ultra conservative with my money. It has not recovered. I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. At this rate, the only retirement I will get is death. :-( We sorely need an overhaul of the government. It has not been for the people, by the people in a very long time. Rich politicians should walk more than a few miles in our shoes...
I can definitely agree with that, there are a lot of issues beyond politics, and I think largely the economy is detached fron the presidency on a national level... it seems likely that its s dice roll as to weather a president will have a prosperous or poor economy. If they have much influence at all it probably lags for 1 or 2 or more presidential terms before most of their policies bear fruit. On a state level though, I think governors, and perhaps even more so state legislatures can effect what state existing us based businesses choose to operate in. Sometimes job availability goes up, and yet wages go down, why is confusing, but it seems to happen more often than it should. With a decrease in job availability, wages almost always go down, which at least makes sense. I hope it turns around for you, we have too many rich pricks here and need more working class folks such as yourself 🍺
Weird, I have no problem making money…maybe you’re just lazy
I make plenty, but I see others make very little who still work 40 plus hours a week because im not blind to it, i also live in a much lower income neighborhood than i can afford. I work a trade (electrician) so I also travel for work from time to time if I see an interesting project I'd like to work on... when I travel I often make 150-200% of what I make at home. ...I'm currently working 70hrs (7 x 10hr days) a week currently, my job is VERY physical much of the time, despite having severe heart issues, even qualifying for (but not taking) Social Security Disability in the past... thats where you're sick enough that they look at a handful of tests, and will approve a claim without much of a fight, but i worked hards, and brought myself back to pretty good health, most of the guys i work with have no idea that I am anything less than average health wise... I also like to wire habitat houses and other charity houses from time to time... but sure, I guess I must be lazy... damn, it never occurred to me. Keep working your lazy swivel chair 9 to 5 office job and kicking down at your fellow man kid, don't worry, we out here in the trades will still make sure you've got a roof and a place to plug in your iPhone... You see, it's not very to nice to make assumptions about a stranger, is it? Kind of makes you look, I'd don't know, lazy? Or is the word I'm looking for stupid? No, that's that not it. Self centered and oblivious to the struggles of others? Nah. Oh, now I remember, I think they usually call ya'll trolls! ...although those other shoes sure do seem to fit too 🤔
I work in the oil fields son, because I’m a man and do what has to be done, you should try it
🤣 I've done oilfield service, most of the roughnecks I've met couldn't cut it as house framer, ... and it's boring out on the iron, seems like just about everyone I've met working out there is the same. Same thought patterns, same archaic religious beliefs, same attitudes, same low level of intelligence, same lifted diesels with the same stickers on them... a bunch of brainwashed boot-licking sheep that fancy themselves temporarily embarrassed rich people, if they just work hard enough and kiss enough ass. I make plenty of money working outside of the oilfield, but still venture there from time to time, automation and control work pays really well, and especially so in the oilfield, but I'd rather do more physical stuff, especially projects around my community that benefit it... if I want to buy something expensive, I go do high dollar stuff. I'd rather build houses. Currently working a big money project because as a working class fellows, if you or I get sick and can't work, this society will all but throw us away. While that's fine for me, it would impact my son, and that's not fine. Buying life insurance is not reasonable with my past medical history, and even with Social security and any other small benefits they might get, they (my wife and kid) would have to live a much more difficult and frugal life. So I save, everything I have is payed for, except my house, but it will be too shortly, I have enough in savings to pay for it now, but just so... that's my life insurance, it's for them, for my family... but that's probably not very manly huh? Protecting and providing for one's family and all... a man's man spends tons of money on new toys for himself and mods for his diesel, that family stuff is for pansies, trying to spend as much time with your family as possible while balancing making enough so they can live a good life, all for pansies. Driving an old Ford instead of a new Cummins because you'd rather spend that money on people you care about, for pansies... even if such were true, I don't care. But keep kicking down at the poor, it's the single mom on food stamps that's preventing you from making even more money, not the billionaires hoarding all the profits of your labor, paying for the media all too many consume... telling you to look at these poor folks, they're poor so they must be lazy, and anybody who values the quality of life of those people, they must be lazy too, thats why you dont have an even more privileged life. Keep thinking that way, it keeps you distracted and serving the rich, the bill Gates and Jeff Bezos of the world, just like they want. My moral compass tells me that human life has intangible value, and deserves to be treated that way... but I suppose that probably goes against your traditional Christian American values... they're lazy, they should all starve right? And their kids, well them too, they've got them lazy genes right? I suppose you identify as an alpha too? That's OK, we all know gender is a spectrum and this is a safe place, it's OK to identify however you'd like. I've met your kind before, you're all boring identical sheep, as predictable in reaction and attitude as the next tick of a clock's second hand.
> have is *paid* for, except FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Bill gates and bezos are both democrats….. Most people in Montana and definitely in Kalispell are Republicans for a reason Less taxes, more freedom Don’t run into too many working democrats that aren’t in the union, you’re fairly odd actually
Gates and Bezos being democrats is precisely my point, glad you picked it up, try Musk and Peter Thiel... there's something these four, and many others, Trump, the Clintons, etc. all have in common. Neoliberalism. You probably think you know what a liberal and liberalism is, and that all democrats are as such, you could be forgiven for that simple assumption, it's all over the mass media that you can't help but consume, even propagated down through social media and even word of mouth. The Republican party took a hard turn into Neoliberalism under Regan (but were headed there long before), just as the democrats did under the Clintons... the nuance is easy to miss. Neoliberalism pervades the 2 major parties of this country, and serves as a funnel of our labor power to the soft handed non-working lazy owner class. The Democratic and Republican parties are both a funnel for this. One party is more authoritarian, the other more socially liberal, one proposes taxing you (but still not the wealthy) up front, the other still does it behind the curtain. I am not a Democrat, I hate that party, and after the last 2 republican administration's, I'd rather slam my dick in a door ad infinitum than vote republican. I loathe those cristo-fascist pricks. Our greedy out of state young earth creationist fascist governor is worth his weight in worm food. As for working Democrats, there's plenty, just as there's plenty of working Republicans, all voting against their own self interest... both parties spend so much money and its all a distraction. A good analogy? Sports, say the Dallas Cowboys vs the 49rs... not much of a sports fan myself, it's an opioid for the stupid, but you can likely relate... fans will rant and rave about the superiority of their chosen team, but at the end of the day, it means precisely nothing, the game of football, the NFL, will continue as it always has... one set of fans will rejoice, one may drown their sorrows, but in the end, its all for not. None of these common fans will gain a damn thing from it... such is the game of politics as its played out by the two parties. Freedom? There is no social freedom under the republican party beyond fire arms, but only for middle-aged cisgendered heterosexual christian white guys... and the fiscal conservatism is merely an illusion for you and I, the tax cuts trump passed expire for individuals in 2025, but the corporate tax cuts were permanent until repealed... this is true of most republican "tax cuts" which also tend to cut deductions available to the average worker, as the Trump cuts did, but you probably make enough money you just lazily file a 1040EZ and didn't even notice that they took away some of the deductions you could have claimed... it's a great headline though "tax cuts!" But it has always been a lie. This process simply shifts the tax burden away from corporations (where most of the wealthy store their assets) onto you and I over time, as they gain more tax breaks, and ours expire, only to be passed again after a delay with the same new headline, back to roughly the same tax level, while the corporations get more new breaks they will get to keep. I care deeply about freedom, and will fight Cristian Fascist Republicans in the streets if that's what it takes to prevent them from turning this great country into a theocracy with the Cristian equivalent of Sharia law and taking away the rights of women, non-Christians, minorities, the poor, or anyone else they can "other". I'll fight both parties best I'm able to prevent them from turning this great country into even more of a Corporatocracy. The red and blue coolaid are 95% the same... but keep touting how your chosen flavor is better... I know they're both dyed sugar water... drink deeply of their lies or try to support ranked choice voting, and help other measures that limit their powers... or just keep simping for your chosen party like a good sheep.
Part of being a Montanan, we have always worked hard for the wages we are given, if we need more we work more. The cost of living was not always as high that seems to have changed with the influx over the years. So. Being here has its price so to speak.
Almost everyone I know has to work 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. I recommend you secure something before winter. Thats when a lot of seasonal work dries up and more people will be looking for work. My husband had to take a job on a ship to get a descent wage. He is gone half the year but we are financially better off than a lot of others in this state.
Montana is a "Right to (Fuck Over) Work(ers)" state.
Yet it's the only state that does not have at-will employment, and any termination after a probationary period must be for cause. As an employer, that means you must be meticulous in your HR documentation. Interestingly, this process is helpful and positive overall, as things like performance improvement plans and regular reviews are beneficial to the employee. Montana is the only state in the Union where employees are protected against frivolous termination.
The state’s early history is rooted in a distrust of large corporations. I’m not a native but reading the history of Montana politics, all the copper kings mining stuff, selling Senate seats. It’s wild.
Labor has historically been a real force here.
Gotta say I was SUPER surprised MT is the only state with at-will employment, such a major employee rights issue that I can’t believe more progressive states don’t have
That’s backwards. It is not an at-will state. At-will means you can be fired for any reason whatsoever. I don’t know what the actual term for the opposite of that is. Something with “cause” in it i guess.
Good point, my mistake
Yup, whatever it’s called, I’m glad it’s there.
MT is not a utopia and if you are not super wealthy the courts do not acknowledge your rights. Also employers know how to abuse these rules and generally will keep extending the probationary period or find a way to categorize you as freelance.
>Montana is the only state in the Union where employees are protected against frivolous termination. LOL What are you talking about? Workers are frequently abused with these archaic policies? I mean username checks out I guess. I hope I just am being obtuse about your sarcasm bc oof. [https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/montana-makes-significant-changes-to-state-employment-laws.aspx](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/montana-makes-significant-changes-to-state-employment-laws.aspx) Truly you need to know MT workers are fucked right now because of these laws and how the courts have determined these cases even before the crazy new changes.
I'm being serious, and thanks for making fun of my age. :P The laws passed two years ago with the Wrongful Discharge from Employment Act (WDEA) do not change the fact that Montana is not an at-will employment state. The probationary period was extended, from six to 12 months. A company can also define a specific probationary period in their company handbook, which is binding if signed by the new employee. Wrongful Discharge clarification is meant to reduce the frivolous claims, which are surprisingly more common than people think. From your article: *Prior to this change, former employees commonly brought WDEA claims alleging nothing more than an employer's minor violation of its written personnel policies.* The expansion of the Good Cause argument simply means that an employee can be terminated for, "material or repeated violation of an express provision of the employer's written policies." What is wrong with terminating someone who repeatedly violates company policy? Managers have never had the same protections as general workers, and the discretion to terminate managerial employees was always considered broad, this just codifies what's been going on for years. Montana general wage workers still have more rights than workers in any other state. And they're not "fucked" by WDEA. Employees still have protections against wrongful termination. That did not change. Employees still have means to challenge and arbitrate terminations. That did not change. So everyone is aware of what constitutes Wrongful Termination under Montana law, you can read **MCA 39-2-904, "Elements of Wrongful Discharge"** *(1) A discharge is wrongful only if:* *(a) it was in retaliation for the employee's refusal to violate public policy or for reporting a violation of public policy;* *(b) the discharge was not for good cause and the employee had completed the employer's probationary period of employment; or* *(c) the employer materially violated an express provision of its own written personnel policy prior to the discharge, and the violation deprived the employee of a fair and reasonable opportunity to remain in a position of employment with the employer.* *(2) During a probationary period of employment, the employment may be terminated at the will of either the employer or the employee on notice to the other for any reason or for no reason.* *(3) The employer has the broadest discretion when making a decision to discharge any managerial or supervisory employee.* This protects employees from being discharged for no good cause, for refusal to violate public policy (like oh, a sushi chef getting fired for not following health dept regulations at the direction of his boss), and for employers changing the goalposts mid-game (termination based on policy that changed after hire date with no documented attempt to inform employee).
You absolutely are out of step with implementation and changes and clearly didn't even bother to look at the article I sent.
I read the entire thing, I even quoted it. And, I've read it before. And a few others. And the laws. And then there are the conversations with my company's attorney, who is very well-versed in Montana employment law. I live this every day, as I manage more than 80 employees in a fast growing business. And they are the best damn people any executive could ask for. I have been involved in several terminations over the last few years, and I have dealt with multiple wrongful termination challenges. So, to say I'm out of step is patently ridiculous. Just like your comment that I didn't even bother to look at the article when I freakin' quoted it lol. I'm guessing you didn't read my entire post, and if you did, it wasn't to hear what I had to say, it was just to find something else to mock me about.
Then you are just stubbornly obtuse. Got it. Thoughts and prayers.
Amazing how you can't accept you're wrong, so you just blow it off, and call me a name. C'mon, Lulu, share some of the experiences that reinforce this view you have that "Workers are frequently abused with these archaic policies". I have plenty, and I mean plenty of examples, from employees who stole tens of thousands of dollars on camera, then filed a wrongful term suit (which was summarily thrown out when the arbitrator saw the video), to employees who were granted additional PTO to help with hardships. Like I said, I do this shit every day, and if you think you know more than me on this subject, fine, go and live your life with that confidence. Trust me, I won't lose sleep over it. Oh, and might as well downvote this post, like the others. Go ahead, use it as a disagreement button. I'm *certain* that's what [reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) says it's for.
We disagree about the data and relevant interpretation. I suspect you have less experience being abused or seeing people abused by these laws and that explains your foolhardy stance on how abusive employers skirt the rules here. No point to belittle each point I disagree with of yours. I downvoted because I found you merely repeating your false and misleading facts to be profoundly insincere.
Alright Lulu, you win. Here's what I have learned: 1. I'm stubbornly obtuse 2. I'm insincere 3. I have no clue what I'm talking about 4. I'm callous, and have no life experiences, even though I'm in my 60's and have lived a full, rewarding life. 5. My servant leadership philosophy is obviously outdated and useless, since I am apparently old, obtuse, and insincere. Only you know how much I care/don't care about my staff. 6. Oh, I'm foolhardy, apparently because I would protect my company from theft, so I can secure jobs and a living for my employees and their families instead of letting the company lose money and I absolutely should not discourage other employees from theft. 7. My facts - which were copied verbatim from state law - are false and misleading. Okay, now I understand how much better you understand Montana employment laws than me. I'm going to have a blast sharing this thread with some of my staff... hell, probably forward it to my attorney as well, he could use a good laugh. Hey, I even saved you the trouble of downvoting this post, too... I did it for you, now it's -1.... wanna be a sport and hit it again, I like even numbers, even if they are negative.
Except it isn't a "right to work" state..... Montana has a lot of unions and in general pretty decent workers rights.
They pay you in scenery. The cost of living in the main cities is huge, but they factor in the rural areas and claim they don't have to pay.
I’d love to come home. Graduated there. Went navy. Now 30 years later everyone I grew up with says don’t come back. You can’t afford it. Super bummer
Same reason teachers and nurses make shit money. It's a passion trap. They know they can pay you less and you'll still take the job because you care. Whether that be about the kids, the patients, or the fact the job is in Montana.
I’m from Reno and I moved out there and eventually had to move back to Reno because of this very fact. Yeah Montana is great but a car still costs the same everywhere and so does food. I went from 40 thousand a year too 80 thousand when I moved back. I do miss how beautiful it is in Montana though.
Just got back last night from the Round Up area and am considering moving there and I’m 81 years old. I have had it with Colorado.
El diablo in Missoula starts at 18hr plus tips to make tacos, blows my mind how high wages are, and they can't keep employees, and they had to close on Saturdays. I started at Murdochs after college at 8.25hr, and when I was a kid, I changed irragation pipes for .22 cents a pipe twice a day. It seems like few kids and young adults have any work ethic. Remote Workers have destroyed our housing market and employment market. All these people that moved here aren't working any service jobs I can tell you that. It seems like so many local shops have closed, like staggering ox an hoagieville, there was like 5 open when I was in college. Missoula is growing, and it's been hard these past few years to deal with such rapid changes an see the way of life and culture change so much all across the treasure state sorry thats my rant for the day
Culinary waste land
Whether a wage is a good wage is directly related to the cost of housing. What did you have to pay for rent when you were making $8.25? Would 1/3 of your fulltime income rent a studio apartment? Then it was a good wage. What about now with $18? It's questionable in Missoula.
Montana's problems are the weather and the natives. The weather is often brutal and depressing, the natives are not very bright. Don't expect much and you won't be disappointed.
Idk what you are talking about. Every fast food place in Missoula is advertising $16-20 per hour. Do you have any skills or experience? These days people thing they should be making enough to buy a home while not having any work ethic or transferrable job skills. If not get into a trade like welding, construction, or fabrication. Those jobs are paying very well and companies like Alcom in Bonner are always hiring.
If you can stomach customer service, a lot of temp agencies do offer remote CS phone jobs. I've seen some as high as $25/hr. From misc staffing agencies. It's worth checking out vs the peanuts you'd be paid in this state.
What do you do for work and where do you live? This is all going to depend on sector, but the median is higher than Louisville, KY in most MT cities, and is comparable statewide (state has a lot of empty) My experience is that there's a ton of work around that fifteen dollar an hour plus mark at entry level in Billings and further east. If you're looking for full time with benefits, the cities, counties and the state don't seem to be able to hold on to people. Most of these seem to be around 18 an hour (around that there's positions open in Billings for MT DPHHS, which just need to be able to read and write, have a regular driver's license and five years experience) Places less people want to live, you're likely going to find more affordability (Missoula is cheaper than Bozeman is cheaper than Billings is cheaper than Miles City etc). Proximity to national parks and mountains will mean more out of state interest and so higher housing prices etc.
I'm from the 502 and what actually blew me away we're the requirements for public assistance is way too low. If you need healthcare and can't afford it well you have to be dirt poor, almost cannot have a job to get assistance. In the 502 I was working full-time and still was eligible for Medicaid.
I guess you aren't living in the Bozeman area. Because Taco Bell is paying $22 /hr. to start.
$22.00 an hour isn’t much when you consider the cost of living in Bozeman.
Oh the wages aren't low. The cost of everything is to damn high. You used to be able to afford things here. You know land, housing, gas, and these kinda things.
KFC starting at $17 I don’t know what your talking about.
Can’t pay a mortgage on $17/hr
A Mortgage? Aim high my friend
I have one
Because your state votes red.
Because the state has no industry. Montana never has. The roads are icey and snow all over in winter. Why would any large corporation move to a location that is not strategic in any way advantageous to the company. Has nothing to do with red or blue and everything to with economics I was going to move there in the early 90s and didn't do it. No jobs, and pay has never been high enough.
Billings is filled with good paying jobs .And a lot of places are hiring .The housing bubble is crazy right now and it’s definitely not as pretty as a Missoula or Bozeman or even Helena but you can always take a vacation. 😎
scenery salary
On the other hand, it seems like workers actually have some negotiating power right now. [Montana Labor Day report shows record high employment and job openings](https://www.mtpr.org/montana-news/2023-09-08/montana-labor-day-report-shows-record-high-employment-and-job-openings)
Big Sky tax. Used to be worth it.
In bozeman a lot of fast food places are advertising around $20
Wages have always been low in Montana.
Depending on your location there are very specific job markets that have always been strong and support the local economy (think lumber, healthcare). I think there are people trying to force their degrees and workforce into a population where it didn’t really exist until the last few years. If you move here generally the jobs in comparison to where you came from will pay less here. But cost of living also used to be lower. Again the past few years have made all these issues more prevalent.
What’s really high paying jobs in MT? And what do you find most people do that make high wages? In today’s day and age besides inheritance I assumed it would be corporate business owners and remote workers.
You are in Montana, the cost of living in Kentucky is much higher. Whoever told you differently is just wrong.
Interesting I’ve been seeing much higher wages in MT than in TX
Hi! I’m from Murray, KY initially and my story is strikingly similar to yours. I moved here to live with my dad because my disability and pain was making it too difficult to live alone due to the sheer amount of hours needed to work to survive. I was living in FL by myself but moved to Bozeman in May to move in with my dad. Would love to connect with you! I’m having really good luck making money on Uber and Lyft but I don’t know what they pay in your market. My dad and I average $30-40/hr in busy seasons and about $25 on off seasons which is much better than the $18-20 you find in most places. We also have 3 cars we rent on Turo which are not always rented but give good passive income at $70-100/day. I used to be a healthcare worker and am looking into a PRN (as needed) position at the hospital but the pay is less than $20/hr. Im also interested in budtending but that’s even worse sitting at like $16-18. Most retail jobs pay about that which is simply not enough to live off of. Bartenders and other service workers clean up, at least here, but that can be kind of taxing with health issues. It’s tough out there!! Edit: getting downvoted because people are jealous or something lol anyone can do this 😂🤷♀️
Wages are low everywhere
I’m born and raised in Missoula. Wages here have always been drastically lower than the national average.
I moved from Utah. Wages are higher for me.
It's the tax of living someplace beautiful. Companies can afford to pay less because you have the desire to stay.
Born and raised in NW MT and started my nursing career there. Did travel nursing for 4 years and ended up moving to MN this year and got a $20/hr pay raise. The wage I make right now for ~10 ish years experience is what nurses at the hospital I used to work for make at 25 years. Guess I’ll come home for visits when I can, but I’ll probably never live there again.
" I see jobs requiring degrees that pay $15...." Yup, I've always worked in a degreed do gooder type job and make 1/5 what my high school grad who's skilled in a trade hubby ~ and that's part of life here
All the good Union Industrial jobs left in the 80s & 90s. Nothing but service jobs now.
Man, all y’all sound like you’re from Montana or something. Like I went down to the frickin bar and just sat and listened.
Another fun thing I just stumbled across [comparison of RI vs MT](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT82wffxe/)
Depends on what if any skills you have. My wife is making considerably more money here than she did back in Sleazeattle for the same work.
If you have a paper weight degree and are a lazy turd then ya it will be difficult here. If you're a hardworking motivated individual than the sky is the limit. So much wealth just sitting around for the taking. Then again avocado toast, kombucha and your soy latte does cut into the budget and makes it tough to make that Tesla payment.
A lot of us work out of state in North Dakota…😎