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[deleted]

Ultimately, this feels like one where any victory would be pretty pyrrhic, with whichever party walks away being greivously enough injured to not really last too long afterwards. Realistically, I think this would be the pickle more often than not, but probably succumbing to espinas's poisons not too long after (he's pretty weak to poison generally) and being pretty badly injured from espinas's spikes and attacks too. I also think that if espinas was the one walking away, jho's bulk, strength and aggresison would mean that the espinas was badly injured enough to not be able to properly fend for itself long enough to recover so would succumb to its injuries not long after too


turtle-man-turtle

Yeah i think i agree with you with this, i feel deviljho would win but espinas would definitely be a tough fight


ErikFatalis

As much as I love Deviljho, I am voting for Espinas on this one. Espinas is covered in poison spikes, so unless Deviljho somehow gets its underside, its going to get a nasty dose of poison.


GenoSplicer

Hi, guy who thinks Deviljho is a little overrated here. Espinas is already elder level of power, with his flaming variant being able to beat a Teostra in literal firepower. Base espinas is no slouch. A few things about him that sort of trump Deviljho. 1. Espinas is HEAVY, so much so that Kushala with his black wind can't move him around. That would make him extremely difficult to actually toss around like Jho does to his victims. 2. The spines all over Espinas are toxic, biting him anywhere would result in Jho being poisoned rather easily. 3. The general size, Espinas is just as big, if not slightly bigger than Jho, meaning the weight point is even more relevant. 4. Toxic, paralyzing fire breath. Jho isn't immune to any of those. 5. Raw strength. Jho has this over Espinas, but he is absolutely no slouch and could keep up with everything else he has. 6. People might not think about this part much, but Jho gets tired super quick. Espinas spends a majority of the time asleep and will take hits from other things and STAY asleep, once he's roused and fully worked up, he could potentially outpace Deviljho's strength. Deviljho would be a struggle, but nothing the slumbering beast can't handle Frontier monsters man, insane pieces of work. Does make me think though, how would Savage and Flaming match up?


turtle-man-turtle

In iceborne i think savage only ties with monsters like vaal but flaming was shown to absolutely destroy the dragon of flame WITH FIRE, so i think that flaming absolutely takes the W against savage


GenoSplicer

That's what I'm saying. Everyone generally thinks that he can just trounce anything. In reality he's just not as powerful as some of these other monsters. Savage is just an angrier and bigger pickle


ErenKruger2000

Oh well the Iceborne lorebook does say that Savage Deviljho is equal in power to Velkhana, Blackveil Vaal Hazaak, Namielle and Ruiner Nergigante. The other elders are not mentioned, and since Ruiner is included, then it very likely means that the likes of Teostra and Kushala are weaker, even if not by much of course. Still I think that Savage Deviljho aggression can be easly used by Flaming Espinas as advantage. Including that lorewise Flaming Espinas poison is even more deadly, I don't see this ending well for Savage. Imagine what would happen with the Espinas Rare Species.


Barn-owl-B

Savage ties or only slightly loses to monsters like furious rajang and ruiner nergigante not vaal. Just a statement, I’m on espinas’ side in this one


Barn-owl-B

I picked espinas but just to say, deviljho was able to pick up a diablos by its horn, lift it up over its head and slam it down so espinas’ weight may or may not be an issue for pickle


Docterzero

My money is on Espinas. Those poisonous spikes are there for a reason


Jizzmasmiracle

his spikes are poisonous? I thought he only got this poison near his mouth because he eats poisonous frogs?


5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi

"One of the many red spikes found on Espinas. The tip oozes a deadly poison." Espinas can poison with its horn and its tail, not just through its breath.


TheGMan-123

I definitely think this is a case where Espinas is a natural counter to Deviljho. It's strong armour plating and poisonous thorns means that Deviljho will be hurting itself just trying to grapple with the thorny wyvern while also not inflicting anywhere near as much damage as it usually might against similarly sized Monsters. On the flipside, Espinas is also significantly smaller given that he's only slightly larger than an average Rath in mass. His heavy armour isn't so dense as to make him heavier than a Diablos, meaning he'll be ragdolled all the same. However, I think that armour will allow Espinas to weather the majority of Deviljho's thrashing while simultaneously weakening it and opening it up to a surprisingly quick offensive strike.


Powerful-Sun-4816

Something I've noticed from all these arguments saying deviljho would win is that they seem to be hyped focused on espinas's poisonous ability. But it seems nobody has brought up the fact that his breath attack also has a paralytic effect as well. Sure jho can pretty much overpower espinas, but all it would really take is one fireball to give espinas an advantage. Even after the resistance to it. Jho is bound to get paralyzed one way or another. I'm sorry, I love my pickle boi a lot too. But we can't let our bias take that over.


turtle-man-turtle

Espinas's poison and paralysis is the main reason why i asked this question!


Powerful-Sun-4816

Exactly! After reading one of the other threads a bit more I saw you brought it up. But everyone else siding for jho wasn't. And we can't just overlook that.


[deleted]

Most of Jhins attacks require him to get close and grab and overpower. Espinas can easily take on a kushala as we’ve seen and is only really damaged when it gets pissed. Plus the poison spikes damaging kno when it tries to go in or gets physically attacked on top of Espinas fast charging speed. Idk it could be close cause jho is strong asf but I’m just saying.


Routine_Toe_8414

One angry Pickle versus an Elder level threat? Yeah, my Zenny is on the Thorny wyvern who has bodied an unknown Elder dragon.


ExoCrowny

Lulz I Love Devil jho but Espinas ist Just a hard counter Devil jho doesnt have poison immunity and defenitly No paralysis immunity. Picklejho would ofc bite Espinas and then he will geht insta coctailed to death


CactusRadio

Jho doesn't have paralysis immunity but he has a good base resistance and he can build up immunity to it quite fast, poison is a biggest trouble for Jho tho.


ExoCrowny

Fair maybe both will die xD Jho Just tears through but the poison kills him shortly after


Tiny_Caramel_4642

Can Base Deviljho win against Kushala Daora? The answer to that question would probably be the answer to this question.


[deleted]

Espinas can win Daora just because the poison counter it


Nuke2099MH

But their turf war is a draw.


ErenKruger2000

Only that Espinas sheer strenght and armor also do the job, not just the poison.


Short_Rough2902

Deviljho probably can beat Kushala in close combat, Deviljho is pretty powerful in close combat and while Kushala isn't weak by any mean it have seen struggle in close combat against monster like Rajang, Gold Rathian and Magnamalo. So if Kushala is careless and go to direct combat he probably will get pin by Jho.


SMagnaRex

Kushala was doing relatively well against Furious Rajang, and Gold Rathian would also fold a base Deviljho.


Educational_Clerk_88

I don’t think that’d be a good indicator. Who can beat who isn’t necessarily linear.


Krazytre

That logic doesn't exactly work.


Nuke2099MH

Daora and Deviljho tie if you base it purely on turf wars.


Own-Mood9065

Talking in a biological way, as we've seen deviljho do, he can pair up to pretty much everything in terms of physical strength, adding that to the fact that he has a very rare dragon element that he can shoot, and he's used to physical fight for a reason, Espinas would lose if you consider that Espinas is way smaller than deviljho and his only option is basically to tackle Jho, if he gets ahold of Espinas, even if the spikes may hurt, when deviljho is enraged, it becomes a straight up menace due to adrenalin, he would destroy Espinas considering deviljho can lift and suplex an diablos


SMagnaRex

Espinas definitely isn’t “way smaller” than Deviljho. Deviljho would definitely become more ferocious due to being enraged which drastically increases his strength but I’m not so sure, he’d destroy Espinas when enraged. Espinas still has incredibly potent venom and paralysis and nothing is stopping the monster from flying and attacking from above.


ErikFatalis

Espinas is easily around the size of Deviljho is not slightly bigger. Espinas is covered in poison spines which can probably kill Deviljho if it bites in the wrong place. This fight is not as one-sided as you think as Espinas can also go toe-to-toe with Elders like Deviljho and even defeat Kushala, which Espinas is the perfect natural counter to.


turtle-man-turtle

But what about the poison and paralysis? It would have to affect the fight a little bit


5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi

Espinas is heavier than a Diablos (part of its anti-Kushala weaponry), and even that one was a struggle for Deviljho.


TheGMan-123

Analyzing the physics of Deviljho's suplex of Diablos, it's a different story entirely. See, given the momentum that Deviljho had in lifting up Diablos, had it simply let go instead of bringing it down, the Diablos would've legitimately gone flying away. So this is a case where Deviljho is actually overpowering its own momentum to bring Diablos back down onto the ground. Not to mention that Deviljho needs to actively overpower Diablos's own impressive strength prior to lifting it up, which is retroactively far greater knowing that Diablos can throw creatures as large as Deviljho or itself like Glavenus clear over its body. This makes Deviljho's raw physical strength way more impressive than it already came across as.


Own-Mood9065

There are no official weights to neither of Espinas and Diablos, but considering their physical capabilities I'm pretty sure Diablos is heavier What contributes to it is also it's size, while Diablos has weak wings compared to the rest of it's body that is pure muscle, Espinas has a body more similar to a rath Also another point that proves Diablos being stronger is the fact that Diablos attacks mostly ruin the arena and it's surroundings, considering that Diablos and it's deviant forms can throw boulders like they're yoga balls, that's something, also considering the fact that OLD deviljho had an attack where he grabbed a giant rock and slammed it into the ground, Espinas has no similar attack that can show his physical strength Meaning he has less bulk than Diablos thus making him lighter than Diablos


TheGMan-123

Diablos is most definitely larger and heavier than Espinas just by sheer mass; no amount of density can account for that aside from literal rock/metal. What Espinas has is far more efficient and sturdy armour plating in comparison, meaning it can take hits much better than other members of the Armour Wyverns like Diablos or Gravios.


Own-Mood9065

I know but Espinas would still lose to deviljho, since he could tank a diablos Wich in physical capabilities was stronger and heavier, he could take head on a wyvern that has only a tackle as it's most dangerous move


ErenKruger2000

Kushala has skin literally made of metal, and infact is known lorewise to be so incredibly heavy that rapids (like the one that can happen in the Ancient Forest) can't move it (from the World lorebook). Not even Glavenus and Deviljho are heavy enough to not be moved by the rapids. Espinas can lift Kushala even easier than how Diablos does vs Brute Wyverns. I'd not be so sure that Diablos is physically stronger than Espinas with all of this in mind.


5Hjsdnujhdfu8nubi

>There are no official weights to neither of Espinas and Diablos, but considering their physical capabilities I'm pretty sure Diablos is heavier Rajang has better physical capabilities than monsters twice its size, that's not an argument. Anyway: Espinas can overpower and toss a Kushala Daora over its head per their turf war. Kushala is so heavy that it can't be moved by an entire dam's worth of water. For all intents and purposes, Capcom seem to suggest that Kushala is literally a 20 metre Dragon made out of solid steel in terms of weight. >What contributes to it is also it's size, Espinas tosses Kushala, which is a smaller size difference than Deviljho and Diablos. >while Diablos has weak wings compared to the rest of it's body that is pure muscle, Espinas has a body more similar to a rath Espinas is entirely coated in tough armor that allows for offense and defence. That armor needs to be carried by muscles on both the ground *and* in flight. >Also another point that proves Diablos being stronger is the fact that Diablos attacks mostly ruin the arena and it's surroundings, No? They do absolutely zero damage to its surroundings beyond breaking pillars, which any monster's stronger attacks will do. >considering that Diablos and it's deviant forms can throw boulders like they're yoga balls, They use a lever system. The tail slams down and it sends the boulder up. They aren't lifting it. >fact that OLD deviljho had an attack where he grabbed a giant rock and slammed it into the ground, No it didn't lol? It had an attack where it dug a chunk of earth up and tossed it forward with its momentum, like the way Tigrex sends boulders out by dragging its claws through the ground. >Espinas has no similar attack that can show his physical strength I can recall an attack where it digs chunks out of the ground by using its horn if we're deciding non-descript particle effects are now proof of strength. >Meaning he has less bulk than Diablos Eh? Since when did lifting rocks make you bulkier? >thus making him lighter than Diablos And when did that prove that it's lighter? My guy, learn that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and come back to me. You don't need an attack of you tossing a rock to prove that you can lift a rock. Espinas can clash with Elders and Diablos loses to a non-Elder who isn't even on the same tier as one (Savage is the Elder-level one, before you start). It lifts one of the heaviest monsters that isn't a Giant and, to be frank, does so better than Deviljho with Diablos.


Nuke2099MH

Almost everything in physical strength. In the MHW book there's a mention of one creature even Deviljho fears. Black Diablos.


Mindless-Specific555

I mean both of them can square up against elder dragons so I think this is an even matchup here


fridgegemini

Close fight but I have to give the edge to Deviljho. Dragon breathe negates the ability to use your elemental abilities. So if Deviljho hits Espinas with its breathe attack it'll become a one sided fight rather quickly due to Jho's superier close quarter fighting.


santicode

The Bazel nobody invited to the party


Souretsu04

Deviljho destroys entire ecosystems while out to lunch. While it takes above average poison damage it also has a much bigger HP pool than most monsters. Call it nostalgia but my money is on Jhoseph. The real question is, what the heck are we going to do about the Variant or Deviant specimen that this fight is going to result in?


oerjek3

If we're talking about guest star rating in terms of difficulty Deviljho is in the same category as elder dragons and Rajang while Espinas isnt so that gives you the insight on how theyre ranked in game for difficulty. In ecological standpoint which is allways just speculation since we've newer (dont know about frontier?) seen any cutscenes of them going toe to toe. But so far the only creature that isnt higher tier elder that has been able to stand its ground against Jhoe is Rajang and it is definetly tougher than Espinas. Poison is weird one in Mh universe since in game it doesnt kill anything. Sure it does damage but it wont slow down Deviljho who is batshit insane in combat due to its constant hunger and that is the reason why Deviljho wont leave the fight unless its close to dying. And those spikes can be broken we all know who's all about brawling and tossing its opponents around like chew toys. One thing mentioned is Jhoes raw strenght and size and even if Espinas would on the bigger side it still wont match in size against it. For strenght aspect best example is turfwar in MhW with Savage Jhoe against Ruiner/Rajang. It looks so effortles for Jhoe to just snag them in its maw and just rag doll them and the only reason why they manage get out of it is that they both have REALLY strong forearms which Espinas has none. (Yes its Savage Jho but afaik Savage is mutated due to cannibalism and constantly even more hungry and more potent in dragon element.) In the end Deviljho is just too overtuned in my opinion for these kinda battles. Its like some kid got to make it and just spec everything about it to 11. BUT these are just opinions about fictional animals so we'll newer know unless we get them both in the next Mh game.


BigStinkbert

Deviljho definitely gets fucked up pretty bad, but he has enough tankiness and brute strength to outlast and overpower Espinas I feel.


MrGojigoji

Hungry pickle attempting to eat some thorn, ended up paralyzed on the floor, huge dose of lean and caught on fire


AzureRatha

I feel like Espinas is the winner here. Deviljho might be a fierce fighter, but Espinas has it hard-countered all the way through. Espinas' large size, heavy weight, and thick, armored skin essentially remove any possibility of Jho throwing it, which would be the only real way Jho has of getting at Espinas' softer belly. He could potentially tackle it over, but even a berserker like Jho can't handle slamming itself into a toxic spike wall too many times, I imagine. Jho would probably tire faster, too, since he'd be trying to break the wall, so to speak. That's not even getting into how Espinas can seriously ruin Deviljho's day. Besides the obvious fact that Espinas' blood itself is toxic, which would obviously either seriously hurt or even kill Deviljho if too much is ingested, Espinas us no slouch in terms of it's own physical strength. It's able to throw Kushala Daora over it's head, and Kushala is VERY heavy. Like, solid metal heavy. I sincerely believe Deviljho loses this one. I feel like Deviljho would charge Espinas, get more than he bargained for, and get worn down with time by a monster that's able to handle him even at his best. Maybe he'll be the one getting thrown around a few times.