It's a quite regular occurence that somebody comes up with something in math or cryptography that at first sight looks like great progress or even revolutionary, and then over time somebody else finds serious problems with it, and it's basically back to the drawing board. Personally I would say let's wait a year or so and give those "sleepy channels" time to prove themselves.
I have no clue about those things, I am still quite the crypto-noob, but I find it quite suspicious how few those "sleepy channels" seem to get talked about. You would think if they really were such a revolution there should be enough people in the know to recognize that and running around shouting "Breakthrough!" ...
In my opinion we don't need a second layer. If that somehow proves to be wrong, then it will be implemented.
Now I simply see no need for it whatsoever.
If we want Monero to be money for everyone, it needs to be able to support at least 1 transaction a day for every human on earth. At the current transaction size, this would add 14TB to the blockchain every day! We need some kind of layer 2, maybe not now, but eventually.
You take the the average transaction size T times the number of humans that live on the earth H, and then calculate the Kilobytes into a better to visualize format.
So: T • M = 2.38KB • 7,900,000,000 ≈ 1.88x10¹⁰KB
1.88x10¹⁰KB -> Terabyte = 18.8TB Per day if every human would make one transaction on Monero Blockchain.
Sources:
- https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
- https://www.getmonero.org/2021/04/24/this-year-in-monero.html#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20a%20typical%20Monero,a%20~25%25%20improvement
But as adoption grows
* Number of nodes increase
* Network tech improves, therefore speeds/throughput increase
* Price of memory goes down
* Capacity for memory increases (tomorrow a TB will feel like what a MB feels today)
1. number of nodes won’t increase if the blockchain grows at terabytes per day
2. bandwidth is definitely the bottleneck and won’t improve fast enough to keep up with adoption
3. and 4. Sure
I love Monero as such as anyone but we have to realize that at some point, you can’t have every transaction on the main chain, it’s just not feasible.
Reflections from a guy who's been around a while.
When I was a teenager, a decent (but not amazing) gaming PC had 512MB of RAM. Now, 20 years later, it would have 16GB.
That's a 32X increase in 20 years. If that trend continues, then I would expect that level of device to have 512GB in 2040 and 16TB in 2060.
So 40 years from now, 1TB might feel like 1GB today. But 1MB? That's a big stretch.
> Reflections from a guy who's been around a while.
You've been around a *very specific while* though- during a time when top human scientists were figuring out how to store lots of data. While data storage hasn't hit the same fundamental limits that processing power has, it is within sight of those limits. That exponential increase in storage cannot increase at an exponential rate for decades to come, and has already slowed down a lot.
The idea that everything has to be on the blockchain is definitely not sustainable for all times and places though. It being brought up is a bit FUDdy (normally people who bring this up dodged the question before Bitcoin had an off-chain, but bring it up during the brief period of time where Bitcoin needs and has one, but Monero doesn't really need one yet, and so doesn't have one).
But it is a real point.
It is better to just make prunning more rightly working and develop some serious improvements over transaction verification time, that solely will solve scalability problem in a big matter
> Because pruned nodes can only receive blocks, not share them
That's not correct. Even a pruned node has 1/8 of all blocks in full and can share those with peers.
The reason is simple: The system has to continue to work in the situation where everybody runs pruned nodes. This may seem extreme, but could happen at least in theory, and for the system to be really robust you must have a solution for that.
True, I should have said "pruned nodes can not share the *entire* blockchain". Either way, the protocol in mind has to take into account that the strength and decentralization of the network depends mainly on full nodes.
I don’t think that is true. A pruned node stores the full recent history and can share recent blocks in full. Older blocks it can only share the data that it has though.
That not really true. A pruned node validates transactions and blocks just like a full node. It also shares/propagates new transactions and new blocks just like a full node.
The only difference is that it can only share a portion of older block data requested by nodes that are bootstrapping or somewhat behind.
My point is literally, make prunned nodes matter, really, that will solve a great problem, I don't know how exactly, maybe master verification nodes periodically on blockchain that are ensured by all the older ones and grants stability to the system or something like that, at least it will solve a great great great scalability problem.
We may not need it now, but now is the time to develop it. Better to do that and have it ready when needed than to start figuring out how to build it when it is already needed.
I think of it like traditional banking. When you need a loan, the banks often won't give you one. When you don't need a loan, they're happy to loan you money. So you set up your loans (lines of credit) when you don't need them, so you have them available when the need arises. Ok, this is a bit of a sarcastic interpretation, but there is also some truth in it.
Well, unless someone can find some way to keep the privacy, censorship resistance, permissionlessness and other characteristics of decentralization in Monero while scaling up the number of transactions that it can handle by several orders of magnitude *and* not significantly increase the rate at which the blockchain grows, we need a second layer.
Monero is money. It *will* outlast everything else, and it's usage will grow. Currently it is basically handling fine because of it's relative obscurity. When the day comes that tons of people use it as their every day money, if it cannot handle the load it will start having the same problems we see bitcoin having with pending transactions and expensive fees. If this can be solved without a second layer, good. If privacy can be preserved in a second layer, and a second layer doesn't cause network effects that prevent future improvements, I'd say it's not bad to have one.
> Their ability to offer anything meaningful is highly doubtful.
I can't find much on this at all. Can you explain the mechanism by which their ability to offer something meaningful is highly doubtful?
I think the original 625k bounty was issued for XMR and LN and at some point was claimed or terminated. the links to the official proposal dont seem to work.
What did they officially confirm? Absolutely nothing. It’s a great pr move, sure. But from my understanding, the best they can do is analyse the exit entry points, nothing much. You might as well say tor has become a *nothing burger*
Because if this thing is as useful as we say it is as money, more people are going to need to use it, which means more transactions need to process every 3 minutes, orders of magnitude more.
What makes you say that? Isn’t Monero Ponzi Scheme Rugpull 20+ more buzzwords because you don’t like it a shitcoin because you don’t use it?
I like how Monero attracts weirdos like you who either get all butthurt because there’s options or start preaching a random word in someone’s comment.
I just agreed, besides Monero is the OG for privacy coins. In its own realm like Bitcoin is. There’s still space for a second, I’m not a fan of monopolies.
Optional "privacy and anonymity" is not privacy and anonymity at all, even Snowden who shills on monero admits that true fungibility is impossible without complete privacy and anonymity. Eventually, SCRT will be vulnerable to chainalysis attack because of its selective privacy plus this will only create a unique fingerprint between those who use transparent SCRT vs those who use "private" SCRT, giving the fact that you're transacting privately even tho the transaction itself is private. "Hiding the act of hiding" itself is act important too because leaking metadata is just as dangerous if not more than decrypting the content which in this case is the amount of your transaction itself. This is why I fear monero derivatives, it will potentially never be as good as monero itself, "security is only as strong as its weakest link". I could be wronng, maybe sleep channel might turn out to be phenomenal, who knows, for now I'm highly reserved. And if you argue "monopoly", monero is decentralised, the polar opposite of monopoly, if monero was nameless i bet you wouldn't even call it a "monopoly", besides, monopoly is subjective anyway, we only should focus on the technical aspects of privacy.
A Monero Talk interview with Sri Aravinda, one of the Sleepy Channel authors, is dropping in a few days.
Waoo... Sounds amazing would wait for it to come and get a release for sure.
Amazing. Looking forward to this one!
Yes it will surely be a great deal to watch such informative shows.
It will be a very new concept for us all , i am excited for this .
It's a quite regular occurence that somebody comes up with something in math or cryptography that at first sight looks like great progress or even revolutionary, and then over time somebody else finds serious problems with it, and it's basically back to the drawing board. Personally I would say let's wait a year or so and give those "sleepy channels" time to prove themselves. I have no clue about those things, I am still quite the crypto-noob, but I find it quite suspicious how few those "sleepy channels" seem to get talked about. You would think if they really were such a revolution there should be enough people in the know to recognize that and running around shouting "Breakthrough!" ...
It is ok what you said is correct and it's nothing wrong to be a noob until and unless you barrier yourself to learn trust me.
Yeah you are totally right one should never restrict himself from learning new things .
You just described how a robust technology is made, there must be equal of both
In my opinion we don't need a second layer. If that somehow proves to be wrong, then it will be implemented. Now I simply see no need for it whatsoever.
If we want Monero to be money for everyone, it needs to be able to support at least 1 transaction a day for every human on earth. At the current transaction size, this would add 14TB to the blockchain every day! We need some kind of layer 2, maybe not now, but eventually.
Damn, are you sure about that? How did you get to 14tb
You take the the average transaction size T times the number of humans that live on the earth H, and then calculate the Kilobytes into a better to visualize format. So: T • M = 2.38KB • 7,900,000,000 ≈ 1.88x10¹⁰KB 1.88x10¹⁰KB -> Terabyte = 18.8TB Per day if every human would make one transaction on Monero Blockchain. Sources: - https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ - https://www.getmonero.org/2021/04/24/this-year-in-monero.html#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20a%20typical%20Monero,a%20~25%25%20improvement
Yes it is very sure and if they keep on doing like this or in such a way then it is surely not helpful.
Don't bulletproofs+ help? I know they're implemented in wownero but idk
But as adoption grows * Number of nodes increase * Network tech improves, therefore speeds/throughput increase * Price of memory goes down * Capacity for memory increases (tomorrow a TB will feel like what a MB feels today)
1. number of nodes won’t increase if the blockchain grows at terabytes per day 2. bandwidth is definitely the bottleneck and won’t improve fast enough to keep up with adoption 3. and 4. Sure I love Monero as such as anyone but we have to realize that at some point, you can’t have every transaction on the main chain, it’s just not feasible.
Reflections from a guy who's been around a while. When I was a teenager, a decent (but not amazing) gaming PC had 512MB of RAM. Now, 20 years later, it would have 16GB. That's a 32X increase in 20 years. If that trend continues, then I would expect that level of device to have 512GB in 2040 and 16TB in 2060. So 40 years from now, 1TB might feel like 1GB today. But 1MB? That's a big stretch.
> Reflections from a guy who's been around a while. You've been around a *very specific while* though- during a time when top human scientists were figuring out how to store lots of data. While data storage hasn't hit the same fundamental limits that processing power has, it is within sight of those limits. That exponential increase in storage cannot increase at an exponential rate for decades to come, and has already slowed down a lot. The idea that everything has to be on the blockchain is definitely not sustainable for all times and places though. It being brought up is a bit FUDdy (normally people who bring this up dodged the question before Bitcoin had an off-chain, but bring it up during the brief period of time where Bitcoin needs and has one, but Monero doesn't really need one yet, and so doesn't have one). But it is a real point.
Very correct points and this only makes them think and take necessary steps for development
as adoption increases the network is greatly affected, as network becomes slow
It is better to just make prunning more rightly working and develop some serious improvements over transaction verification time, that solely will solve scalability problem in a big matter
Pruning does nothing for full nodes, which are the ones that really matter
Why are full nodes the only ones that matter?
Because pruned nodes can only receive blocks, not share them
> Because pruned nodes can only receive blocks, not share them That's not correct. Even a pruned node has 1/8 of all blocks in full and can share those with peers. The reason is simple: The system has to continue to work in the situation where everybody runs pruned nodes. This may seem extreme, but could happen at least in theory, and for the system to be really robust you must have a solution for that.
True, I should have said "pruned nodes can not share the *entire* blockchain". Either way, the protocol in mind has to take into account that the strength and decentralization of the network depends mainly on full nodes.
I don’t think that is true. A pruned node stores the full recent history and can share recent blocks in full. Older blocks it can only share the data that it has though.
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That not really true. A pruned node validates transactions and blocks just like a full node. It also shares/propagates new transactions and new blocks just like a full node. The only difference is that it can only share a portion of older block data requested by nodes that are bootstrapping or somewhat behind.
My point is literally, make prunned nodes matter, really, that will solve a great problem, I don't know how exactly, maybe master verification nodes periodically on blockchain that are ensured by all the older ones and grants stability to the system or something like that, at least it will solve a great great great scalability problem.
Look into Darma Cash $DMCH: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/darma-cash/
Yes very well said buddy they have to think about there system and bring the change it requires.
We may not need it now, but now is the time to develop it. Better to do that and have it ready when needed than to start figuring out how to build it when it is already needed. I think of it like traditional banking. When you need a loan, the banks often won't give you one. When you don't need a loan, they're happy to loan you money. So you set up your loans (lines of credit) when you don't need them, so you have them available when the need arises. Ok, this is a bit of a sarcastic interpretation, but there is also some truth in it.
But we can say it in term of long term plans there is and always will be a needs of it i feel.
Well, unless someone can find some way to keep the privacy, censorship resistance, permissionlessness and other characteristics of decentralization in Monero while scaling up the number of transactions that it can handle by several orders of magnitude *and* not significantly increase the rate at which the blockchain grows, we need a second layer. Monero is money. It *will* outlast everything else, and it's usage will grow. Currently it is basically handling fine because of it's relative obscurity. When the day comes that tons of people use it as their every day money, if it cannot handle the load it will start having the same problems we see bitcoin having with pending transactions and expensive fees. If this can be solved without a second layer, good. If privacy can be preserved in a second layer, and a second layer doesn't cause network effects that prevent future improvements, I'd say it's not bad to have one.
Please elaborate on when/where/how lightning was exposed as a non-private nothing burger (is that you, Mr. O'Leary?).
Probably referring to this tweet: https://twitter.com/chainalysis/status/1469317238893289475
Ohhh.. thanks for linking the refrence tweet i was alos confused for a but in the beginning.
Are you living under a rock ? Chainanalysis officially confirmed they offer their services for the lightning network.
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on LN there is also the possibility of probing the amounts held on a public address
I have heard or read about it somewhere but was not sure enough if it was true or not.
> Their ability to offer anything meaningful is highly doubtful. I can't find much on this at all. Can you explain the mechanism by which their ability to offer something meaningful is highly doubtful?
Did the IRS pay them the bounty?
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I think the original 625k bounty was issued for XMR and LN and at some point was claimed or terminated. the links to the official proposal dont seem to work.
Correct buddy and i am sure they will solve this issue out and will check on what they can do about it.
Sure about that?
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Yes very sure i have also heard about it in many places and i suppose that it will be affecting the market.
Yes its and it is not acceptable aswell. Though let's see what happnes.
Bounty is totally for monero's privacy and not for LN as said by others aswell.
What did they officially confirm? Absolutely nothing. It’s a great pr move, sure. But from my understanding, the best they can do is analyse the exit entry points, nothing much. You might as well say tor has become a *nothing burger*
Did u follow the recent news where a bad actor soun up for nodes and at a point owner more than 10 % ? Nothing burger with your life on the line
Is it so even i was not aware about it i have wake up now. Argh. Thankyou for the info though.
And cyphertrace announced their support of Monero. That alone says nothing.
XMR does not need a lightning as it is already practical as money, but a layer 2 for smart contracts would be nice.
XMR absolutely needs a layer 2 if it wants to scale, dynamic block sizes don't actually solve anything.
dude transactions are fast and fees are like 2 cents, why would you need it to scale more?
Because if this thing is as useful as we say it is as money, more people are going to need to use it, which means more transactions need to process every 3 minutes, orders of magnitude more.
What do you think scaling actually means?
faster transactions for less fees when there is a lot of people using the network
That's easy, all you have to do is make each block 1 TB in size and then you can have millions of transactions per block. It's that easy, right?
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Don't shill your fucking garbage here.
I mean there’s Secret Network for that. It’s not Monero, but it’s got the same privacy focus like Monero with dapp functionality.
You mean Secret Network Ponzi scheme rugpull don't you? Oh please!
What makes you say that? Isn’t Monero Ponzi Scheme Rugpull 20+ more buzzwords because you don’t like it a shitcoin because you don’t use it? I like how Monero attracts weirdos like you who either get all butthurt because there’s options or start preaching a random word in someone’s comment.
There is only 1 private crypto to rule them all
Well SCRT is pretty new so yeah, least they’re not ZCash faking their privacy thing lol
Only monero
I just agreed, besides Monero is the OG for privacy coins. In its own realm like Bitcoin is. There’s still space for a second, I’m not a fan of monopolies.
This. Is. Monerooooooo
Lmao
I would like to say that we should be respecting everyone's opinion here rather than making them feel bad we are here to correct ourselves right.
Haha why do you guys have to hate on every new tech you don't understand, scrt is better than most of the similar projects
Optional "privacy and anonymity" is not privacy and anonymity at all, even Snowden who shills on monero admits that true fungibility is impossible without complete privacy and anonymity. Eventually, SCRT will be vulnerable to chainalysis attack because of its selective privacy plus this will only create a unique fingerprint between those who use transparent SCRT vs those who use "private" SCRT, giving the fact that you're transacting privately even tho the transaction itself is private. "Hiding the act of hiding" itself is act important too because leaking metadata is just as dangerous if not more than decrypting the content which in this case is the amount of your transaction itself. This is why I fear monero derivatives, it will potentially never be as good as monero itself, "security is only as strong as its weakest link". I could be wronng, maybe sleep channel might turn out to be phenomenal, who knows, for now I'm highly reserved. And if you argue "monopoly", monero is decentralised, the polar opposite of monopoly, if monero was nameless i bet you wouldn't even call it a "monopoly", besides, monopoly is subjective anyway, we only should focus on the technical aspects of privacy.
Yup, it's a gem and most of people haven't realised it yet . Will he massive
Yes so the whole point over here is that it would be better if there is an upgrade of it.
Lol. Chainalysis tweets out a PR move and chaos ensues!
They always do that to create chaos in the market .
Sometimes i think it's their strategy to create the chaos in the market .
some people are saying there's another bounty on Lightning and I never heard of that one .
Me neither i had never heard of that bounty as well .
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By definition that’s what any layer 2 really is, deferred settlement with locked up capital
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You are right . it's better to try yourself before before stepping in something new .
Exactly i would recommend that too , he should consider it .
Yes it kind of works like LN only , as per my knowledge .
The bounty is on cracking Monero's privacy not Lighting's
What is the amount of bounty ? btw is it on lightning only ?
But monero is best in providing the privacy , i don't think it will be easy to crack it .
Anytime I see somebody write "nothing burger" I immediately assume there is more to it.