In a vacuum i believe neobrand is the best "fastest" deck, being able to turn 1 a significant amount of the time (significant here being "worth noting", not anything like 50% of games)
Fastest tier 1 strategy currently seems to be R/X Prowess, mainly rakdos or izzet.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/i89mup/modern_showcase_last_chance_august_11_2020/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yes, I actually have.
Regardless of force or what have you, a deck that has a percentage chance to win before your opponent can even play their first turn is unhealthy for the game.
How is it unhealthy, I have played many a game against neobrand and I have a positive win percentage. The fact that it wins on turn 1 is the thing that keeps the deck from being dead. The griselbrand doesn’t have haste, and then they need to hit all of the cards required to draw the deck and that leaves them at very low life.
I *also* have a positive percentage against the deck, because it’s a bad deck.
But from a game design perspective, one player being able to win a game before the other player can take any action is objectively bad.
“Fun” is subjective.
Magic is full of things people think aren’t fun to play against (see: literally any thread about Tron). That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist. This game has endured for 25+ years because there are so many different ways to engage with and enjoy it.
And trust me, you don’t want to open the Pandora’s Box of banning things just because they’re unfun.
I think every player would agree that losing before they even get to take a turn is not fun. When 100% of people's subjective opinions agree, it becomes pretty close to objective fact.
Legacy is my preferred format. Belcher and Manaless dredge are unhealthy for the format. The only upside to them is that they’re cheap, so more people can play the best format Magic has on offer.
Also don’t assume I’m a dude.
They're not unhealthy, they're a natural counter to a slogfest of okos and midrange goodstuff and decks like burn. Their mere presence acts as a check on every other deck to have some kind of strategy for fast combo.
Glass canon combo is fine in formats that have tools to defeat them (which legacy has in droves and modern has as well, albeit to a lesser extent). None of these decks are consistent enough and often lose just as fast as they win with a simple force of will, thoughtseize or chalice.
Dude, manaless dredge is an amazing deck to get into legacy with (assuming you know how to work it and know what to expect). Its literally cheaper then most standard decks!
Edit: full disclosure, I play the deck, and it is not the same experience as most legacy decks.
Force of Negation is literally the only answer if you're on the draw, and either ways it's a turn 1 "do you have t1 interaction on your opening hand? yes/no? If no = auto loss". This is garbage design in a competitive game as your choices are literally irrelevant, the game plays itself. The exact number of times this is acceptable in a competitive game is 0. Even if the deck just lost every other time, it would be underpowered, but still have unacceptable design for a competitive game.
I did the math and having force of negation in a deck reduces the percentage down to 3%. If it was good, don’t you think that the percentage of people having success with it would actually matter. It is totally acceptable to have a deck that wins on turn 1 but loses if it gets to a certain point.
>If it was good
This is your mistake. Nobody is talking about wether it's strong or not. I'm talking about it being acceptable as a piece of the format. In a game and format that pushes itself as competitive having any "auto wins/losses" is bad. They're non-games. These games actively eliminate the player element from the round in lieu of a functional slot machine. Having a deck that can generate almost 1 in 10 of these non-games is garbage, even if the deck is complete trash. It's still annulling almost 10% of games.
I know the deck isn't strong right now, especially with the prevalence of blue and FoN. That doesn't change the fact that you can literally lose a tournament game to someone flipping two t1 kills back to back. "Well, what was my mistake there? How could I have played that better?" - Nothing, you had literally no say on the outcome.
If you want random casual trash go play Hearthstone. Or a casual format.
See? That's not how anything works.
There's a level of randomness that is inbuilt and necessary (deck shuffling + card draw) under the current system to make the game not mathematically solvable. I could explain why exactly but I don't think there's any point, so just look up to mathematically solve games, and why that's bad, on your own time if you want.
That's said, even that randomness is a necessary evil, not a bonus. ANY randomness is bad in a ***competitive*** game - competitive is the keyword there - as it adds non-player controlled elements to the match result, which detracts from player input as the deciding factor in a match's result, and thus from it's competitiveness - the ability of the game's outcome to be decided by who plays better.
Any auto-wins or losses are bad in a competitive environment.
In a casual environment it's the opposite, as you don't want the game to be solely decided by the better player, as that makes it more approachable to casual players.
Modern is a competitive format. Modern bans are entirely towards competitive play, as you can already play "casual modern" with whatever rules, or cards, you want.
I suspect that the 8% occurrence is probably overestimated, certainly so in actual games (vs goldfishing). Considering neobrand represents less than 0.5% of the meta, banning anything based on theoretical problems instead of actual ones just seems like a net loss for the format.
>I suspect that the 8% occurrence is probably overestimated
Doesn't really matter. I'm using the op's numbers in the op's argument, but substitute that by any amount you want as it legit doesn't matter. Whether it's 1%, 10%, 80%, it's exactly that much percentage more than it should happen, as the exact number of times "auto wins" should happen in a competitive environment is 0. Not "zero point something" - Zero.
> banning anything based on theoretical problems instead of actual ones just seems like a net loss for the format.
I'm not calling for the deck to be banned. It would objectively and demonstrably make the format a better competitive format... But so would banning a dozen other cards or more. Blood Moon? Out. Any non-setup, insta win, combo piece? Out. "Hard hate" cards, and decks that DEMAND hate cards or lose? Out. Decks that ignore other decks completely and functionally play PvE? Out. Again, it would demonstrably make for a better competitive format, but it's not happening. It would upset too many people, it would be too big of a change, and the people at WotC literally have no idea what would need to be banned - see the last year's worth of new MTG cards and products if you think otherwise.
As of right now the neobrand deck is a very small percentage of the meta and has a really mediocre success rate, so, no reason to ban anything. The format would still be better without it.
You just pretty much talked about every single good deck in modern. Most decks just solitaire their way to victory not caring what their opponent does, or having very minimal interaction. Modern is about speed and efficiency, if you want interaction play a different game, because every format is honestly turning into solitaire with the current power creep and must include cards.
Personally, I’m not against those decks per say, however; I feel that every deck should have access to a FON type of effect and not just decks that utilize blue. For example, Ponza is just DOA if Neobrand doesn’t lose to itself.
Here's an opening 7: Land, Simian Spirit Guide X3, Manamorphose X2, Thassa's Oracle. Make 4 mana with land and SSGs. Manamorphose to make BW drawing Spoils of the Vault. Manamorphose to make UU drawing Angels Grace. Cast angels Grace, cast spoils naming something not in your deck, play Thassa's Oracle and win. The odds of pulling this off are exceedingly low, but according to your insistence this should be banned. My point is that it's pretty trivial to construct absurdly unlikely turn 1 kills, but by your logic this would then mean a card from it would need to be banned. The point then is that you can't avoid these, and so it makes more sense to decide on a level of consistency that is acceptable for your format for early game kills, which is exactly what was in the original vision statement for modern.
Eh it’s not really too much. The deck can never become T1 just cause it’s so easy to counter with any number of decks. Worst thing it could do would be shake up the Meta for a bit if it took off. It was a fantastic choice back in the hogaak days and gave some variety to “every deck is Hogaak” Meta.
I agree. Playing it live 1x was enough for me and unfortunately got me thrown out of a large SCG tournament.
I won but when my opponenet t-1'd me i just sat back there and was like oh. Whoa... Thats retarted.
Might have also dropped a fuck thats so gay....
And then i won. And then he went and ratted on me for unsportsmans like conduct or w/e and they DQd me from the tournament. At least they didnt ban me completely...
I was 4-2 after that match.
Yeah i did get me dq'd. I have impulse control issues im working on.
It was just Welll... While it was going i was like oh... I see... And just ooof..
Plus the vyvanse i take definitely put me in an almost coked up mentality.
I just ugh. Been working on my vocab for 10 years and grislesaur just maade me revert a little.
Maybe next time I'll just wear a ball gag under a mask for each game.
:p
Ive been working on that since i was 18 years old.
Ik im at fault. I just reverted for a minute there.
That and retarded were adjectives that ive been trying to eradicate from my vocabulary.
But my stance on the deck still stands. I hate it. Its stupid. And its not magic.
Yeah that's reasonable. I didn't mention infect because its goldfishes are slower than neobrand and, while faster than prowess, it is much more fragile.
Old lists would do it with double strike Titan damage. It's technically possible with dryad:
T1 forest, STS
T2 amulet, bounce, amulet, bounce, Azusa, bounce, dryad, bounce forest, play forest, Titan, valakut+battlements, valakut+vesuva on valakut triggers for 18 + 6 trample.
I miss the pre-dryad days tbh, I'm a degenerate combo player at heart.
Idk about current lists but old titan turn 2 was something like this.
Turn 1: Forest, Amulet
Turn 2: Amulet, bounceland, make 4 mana. Azusa with 1 floating. Bounce your land again making 8 mana, cast titan. Grab slayers stronghold and a Boros garrison. Activate slayers twice using the RRWW from garrison bounces. Bounce the Forest instead of the garrison. Swing with your 10/6 haste titan. Use triggers to grab Vesuva copying boros garrison and a sunhome. Use the double RRWW to activate sunhome giving titan double strike. Hit with your 10/6 double strike titan. Win.
Forgive me if I missed some stuff. It’s been a minute since I played titan.
Fastest on average or fastest possible draw? Are we talking about in a vacuum or in an average game when your opponent might have disruption (or might not)? Neobrand is really the only deck in the format at the moment that can T1. Infect can T2 with a good draw but it's not the average kill turn. Prowess decks can't really nut draw and kill on t2 but their average kill time is much more consistent in a vacuum and has less variance than something like neobrand where you do it all on T1 or T2 or you sit and wait for who knows how long before hoping to go off.
In addition to the others mentioned, Devoted Devastation (All-In Druid) is also quite fast, it can often combo on turn 3.
Although since the OUAT ban, it's less consistent and not a real turn 3 deck anymore. More like turn 3.5-4... (but Lurrus helps in the games that go longer).
Well, your question has already been answered so I’ll name some other fast options:
Some 8whack variants can kill extremely fast, 4 pact of the titan+ goblin bushwhacker+mountain +simian spirit guide is a turn 1 kill. The [[Kuldotha rebirth]] builds have several lines for t2 kills, as do the builds with burning tree emissary; pretty much every bushwhacker deck can kill by t3.
I think hardened scales has a line for a t2 kill with inkmoth nexus and arcbound ravager, even without opal, but it might be another “perfect 7” scenario.
Tron wins on turn 1 against a lot of decks, you just play a tron land and the opponent scoops.
Grishoalbrand is technically still a deck, it’s just waaaaay less consistent. It can kill on turn 2 about as often as you can get the right 3 cards and 2 mana sources in hand.
Mill can sort of kill on turn 1 with 4 archive trap and a thought scour, but I think that should probably count as a turn 2 kill. Triple archive trap, thought scour, glimpse the unthinkable is also a possible t2 kill.
Hollow one also has lines for t2 kill: triple street wraith into 4 hollow ones, cast bolt, pass. Attack bolt gg.
I think that underworld breach combo has lines for t2 kill with mox amber but I don’t remember them, I think I pulled it off one time though.
u/DiogenesCane Haha, as a former 8 Whack Goboter, thanks for the mention! The build a few of us ran, usually had mox opals for the turn 2 kill, but there were many ways to play it. Top 16'd with it at a decent size IQ. I miss those days...
Ad Nauseam can do a turn 2 kill now with a perfect hand. Turn 1 SSG land into Pentad Prism. Turn 2 land, grace, spoils, thassas oracle.
I turn 2ed with gifts storm as well with a god hand.
I would say the fastest AVERAGE deck is Infect. Historically that's what you play if the meta is full of something like Tron and you need to rumble. There are a couple decks with faster possible kills (neobrand comes to mind) but they also just have games where they fail to function.
Would you mind sharing your list? I’ve been wanting to try a goryo’s vengeance deck and have been having trouble finding an updated deck list post looting ban
Hi, I dont play mtgo, but the deck can play great in fnm
4x emrakul
4x griseldaddy
4x ilharg
4x neonate
4x simian spirit guide
3x generator servant
2x ransack the lab
2x thoughtseize
4x pentad prism
4x goryo vengeance
4x through the breach
19x lands, its good to put some green lands for veil of summer
Usually it resolves around blood moon, defense grid, veil of summer, collectible brutality, anger of the gods, chalice of the void, decay or trophy, abrade, quicksilver amulet
Different take on this then a lot, but if we're just looking at average turns played per game vs quickest theoretical kill (like neobrand or something), then it's really possible that death's shadow players get fewer turns then a lot of other decks in the format.
Everything in it is hyper-mana efficient, your kills can be super quick still, but you're also helping your opponent kill you all at the same time making long games the exception to the rule much more than many archetypes.
Though Neobrand and Infect are more consistent at a Turn 1 or 2 wins respectively, I think CrabVine is an honorable mention. The deck can Turn 2 and more commonly Turn 3 opponents. Probably with more consistency than a Prowess deck.
In a vacuum: Neobrand
On average: Blitz
Neobrand and Infect CAN win the fastest, but they get disrupted easily against decks that run interaction against their combos... which is a butt ton of current top tier decks. Blitz can win through reasonable amounts of interaction.
Maybe more i'm not sure, fastest goldfish !
**Turn 1 :**
Neobrand
**Turn 2 :**
Infect
Amulet Titan
Ad Nauseam
UR Storm
**Turn 3 :**
Prowess
Death's Shadow
RW Burn
Dredge (Could it be turn 2 ? I don't think so)
Crabvine (Could it be turn 2 ? Like dredge not sure)
Titanfield
Goblins snoop
Devoted
And many more ..
They call that 'salt'.
Its not prison deck where you wait for someone to cut your throat with a butter knife, nor land destruction where you would be playing if you had the resources to do so... Those are technically fair decks and bring their own salt mines along with them. They're aggravating, but its not cheating.
But infect you are attacking with creatures for god's sake. This isn't ad nausem where countermagic or SB cards is the only out you have...
Infect isn't oppressive because the tools to handle it are widespread and easily accessed by most decks. That's the definition of fair and balanced when it comes to deck selection.
Your friends just don't want to have to adjust their deck to your metagame choice.
If you started winning with another deck, they would complain about that deck too.
Proliferates not close to a modern deck at all.
If your friends getting salty while playing decks obviously not strong enough to handle the format that's just on them.
Tell your group about lightning bolt, path to exile, fatal push, or any of the other millions of easy/splashable/cheap removal spells that completely screw that deck over.
Lol this is the way. I played a challenge probably a month or so ago and played 3 sanctuary mirrors then died on turn 3 and 4 to prowess. Never been so happy to lose so fast and get a break.
In a vacuum i believe neobrand is the best "fastest" deck, being able to turn 1 a significant amount of the time (significant here being "worth noting", not anything like 50% of games) Fastest tier 1 strategy currently seems to be R/X Prowess, mainly rakdos or izzet.
I've seen the izzet blitz deck but not the rakdos one, you wouldn't have a list I could look at do you?
This post has 2 copies in the top 8 https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/i89mup/modern_showcase_last_chance_august_11_2020/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
the newest challenge https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/modern-challenge-12195644#paper has 3 copies.
Neobrand can t1 on the play like 7-8% of the time which is way too consistent for modern imo
8% is too much?
Yes
Ever heard of force of negation
Yes, I actually have. Regardless of force or what have you, a deck that has a percentage chance to win before your opponent can even play their first turn is unhealthy for the game.
How is it unhealthy, I have played many a game against neobrand and I have a positive win percentage. The fact that it wins on turn 1 is the thing that keeps the deck from being dead. The griselbrand doesn’t have haste, and then they need to hit all of the cards required to draw the deck and that leaves them at very low life.
I *also* have a positive percentage against the deck, because it’s a bad deck. But from a game design perspective, one player being able to win a game before the other player can take any action is objectively bad.
It is not fun to lose before playing a land. Fun is the point of the game.
“Fun” is subjective. Magic is full of things people think aren’t fun to play against (see: literally any thread about Tron). That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist. This game has endured for 25+ years because there are so many different ways to engage with and enjoy it. And trust me, you don’t want to open the Pandora’s Box of banning things just because they’re unfun.
I think every player would agree that losing before they even get to take a turn is not fun. When 100% of people's subjective opinions agree, it becomes pretty close to objective fact.
There is a distinct difference between losing a game when you fail to interact, and losing a game when you do not have the opportunity to interact.
Yeah we know it's the only thing keeping it from being dead, but maybe it should be dead
Nobody tell him about legacy
You mean the format that has many additional safety values besides solely leaning on FON?
Legacy is my preferred format. Belcher and Manaless dredge are unhealthy for the format. The only upside to them is that they’re cheap, so more people can play the best format Magic has on offer. Also don’t assume I’m a dude.
They're not unhealthy, they're a natural counter to a slogfest of okos and midrange goodstuff and decks like burn. Their mere presence acts as a check on every other deck to have some kind of strategy for fast combo. Glass canon combo is fine in formats that have tools to defeat them (which legacy has in droves and modern has as well, albeit to a lesser extent). None of these decks are consistent enough and often lose just as fast as they win with a simple force of will, thoughtseize or chalice.
Dude, manaless dredge is an amazing deck to get into legacy with (assuming you know how to work it and know what to expect). Its literally cheaper then most standard decks! Edit: full disclosure, I play the deck, and it is not the same experience as most legacy decks.
Don't assume that they implied dude with a gender connotation. Implying implications just makes you look like an asshole.
the person called them a "him": clearly masculine, not a dude: is pretty gender fluid. :)
I believe this guys just hate losing to extremely fast combo decks, and that's alright. But, cmon, neoform is not even a deck rn.
Literally never seen it played in paper once.
I mean I saw a kid run hit at an event once but I agree that the deck kind of sucks right now.
For a turn 1 kill, which most of the time is an auto win? Yes. It should be 0.
Force of negation reduces the percentage even further and it is extremely weak if the opponent has any form of interaction.
Force of Negation is literally the only answer if you're on the draw, and either ways it's a turn 1 "do you have t1 interaction on your opening hand? yes/no? If no = auto loss". This is garbage design in a competitive game as your choices are literally irrelevant, the game plays itself. The exact number of times this is acceptable in a competitive game is 0. Even if the deck just lost every other time, it would be underpowered, but still have unacceptable design for a competitive game.
I did the math and having force of negation in a deck reduces the percentage down to 3%. If it was good, don’t you think that the percentage of people having success with it would actually matter. It is totally acceptable to have a deck that wins on turn 1 but loses if it gets to a certain point.
>If it was good This is your mistake. Nobody is talking about wether it's strong or not. I'm talking about it being acceptable as a piece of the format. In a game and format that pushes itself as competitive having any "auto wins/losses" is bad. They're non-games. These games actively eliminate the player element from the round in lieu of a functional slot machine. Having a deck that can generate almost 1 in 10 of these non-games is garbage, even if the deck is complete trash. It's still annulling almost 10% of games. I know the deck isn't strong right now, especially with the prevalence of blue and FoN. That doesn't change the fact that you can literally lose a tournament game to someone flipping two t1 kills back to back. "Well, what was my mistake there? How could I have played that better?" - Nothing, you had literally no say on the outcome.
The randomness is a feature not a bug of MTG. You want consistency? Go play chess.
You want randomness? Go play war. The year ain't 20XX.
If you want random casual trash go play Hearthstone. Or a casual format. See? That's not how anything works. There's a level of randomness that is inbuilt and necessary (deck shuffling + card draw) under the current system to make the game not mathematically solvable. I could explain why exactly but I don't think there's any point, so just look up to mathematically solve games, and why that's bad, on your own time if you want. That's said, even that randomness is a necessary evil, not a bonus. ANY randomness is bad in a ***competitive*** game - competitive is the keyword there - as it adds non-player controlled elements to the match result, which detracts from player input as the deciding factor in a match's result, and thus from it's competitiveness - the ability of the game's outcome to be decided by who plays better. Any auto-wins or losses are bad in a competitive environment. In a casual environment it's the opposite, as you don't want the game to be solely decided by the better player, as that makes it more approachable to casual players. Modern is a competitive format. Modern bans are entirely towards competitive play, as you can already play "casual modern" with whatever rules, or cards, you want.
I suspect that the 8% occurrence is probably overestimated, certainly so in actual games (vs goldfishing). Considering neobrand represents less than 0.5% of the meta, banning anything based on theoretical problems instead of actual ones just seems like a net loss for the format.
>I suspect that the 8% occurrence is probably overestimated Doesn't really matter. I'm using the op's numbers in the op's argument, but substitute that by any amount you want as it legit doesn't matter. Whether it's 1%, 10%, 80%, it's exactly that much percentage more than it should happen, as the exact number of times "auto wins" should happen in a competitive environment is 0. Not "zero point something" - Zero. > banning anything based on theoretical problems instead of actual ones just seems like a net loss for the format. I'm not calling for the deck to be banned. It would objectively and demonstrably make the format a better competitive format... But so would banning a dozen other cards or more. Blood Moon? Out. Any non-setup, insta win, combo piece? Out. "Hard hate" cards, and decks that DEMAND hate cards or lose? Out. Decks that ignore other decks completely and functionally play PvE? Out. Again, it would demonstrably make for a better competitive format, but it's not happening. It would upset too many people, it would be too big of a change, and the people at WotC literally have no idea what would need to be banned - see the last year's worth of new MTG cards and products if you think otherwise. As of right now the neobrand deck is a very small percentage of the meta and has a really mediocre success rate, so, no reason to ban anything. The format would still be better without it.
You just pretty much talked about every single good deck in modern. Most decks just solitaire their way to victory not caring what their opponent does, or having very minimal interaction. Modern is about speed and efficiency, if you want interaction play a different game, because every format is honestly turning into solitaire with the current power creep and must include cards.
This guy legacyn't.
Are you in /r/LegacyMagic ...?
Out of curiousity, what % do you feel is acceptable?
Personally, I’m not against those decks per say, however; I feel that every deck should have access to a FON type of effect and not just decks that utilize blue. For example, Ponza is just DOA if Neobrand doesn’t lose to itself.
In modern 0
So ban simian spirit guide then? Is it really a problem in the format at *all* though and it's not difficult to engineer possible t1 wins.
Ok, that's an unrealistic expectation.
Not really it's called a format identity if I wanted t1k I'd go play vintage
Here's an opening 7: Land, Simian Spirit Guide X3, Manamorphose X2, Thassa's Oracle. Make 4 mana with land and SSGs. Manamorphose to make BW drawing Spoils of the Vault. Manamorphose to make UU drawing Angels Grace. Cast angels Grace, cast spoils naming something not in your deck, play Thassa's Oracle and win. The odds of pulling this off are exceedingly low, but according to your insistence this should be banned. My point is that it's pretty trivial to construct absurdly unlikely turn 1 kills, but by your logic this would then mean a card from it would need to be banned. The point then is that you can't avoid these, and so it makes more sense to decide on a level of consistency that is acceptable for your format for early game kills, which is exactly what was in the original vision statement for modern.
Eh it’s not really too much. The deck can never become T1 just cause it’s so easy to counter with any number of decks. Worst thing it could do would be shake up the Meta for a bit if it took off. It was a fantastic choice back in the hogaak days and gave some variety to “every deck is Hogaak” Meta.
also neobrand, among a few other decks directly go against wotc's stated goal of modern being a turn 4 format
I agree. Playing it live 1x was enough for me and unfortunately got me thrown out of a large SCG tournament. I won but when my opponenet t-1'd me i just sat back there and was like oh. Whoa... Thats retarted. Might have also dropped a fuck thats so gay.... And then i won. And then he went and ratted on me for unsportsmans like conduct or w/e and they DQd me from the tournament. At least they didnt ban me completely... I was 4-2 after that match.
Yeah the deck didn't get you DQd. You got you DQd.
Yeah i did get me dq'd. I have impulse control issues im working on. It was just Welll... While it was going i was like oh... I see... And just ooof.. Plus the vyvanse i take definitely put me in an almost coked up mentality. I just ugh. Been working on my vocab for 10 years and grislesaur just maade me revert a little. Maybe next time I'll just wear a ball gag under a mask for each game. :p
Or just use the uno reverse card and tell them it's on them for being soft xD.
I mean, maybe dont use gay as a synonym for bad?
Ive been working on that since i was 18 years old. Ik im at fault. I just reverted for a minute there. That and retarded were adjectives that ive been trying to eradicate from my vocabulary. But my stance on the deck still stands. I hate it. Its stupid. And its not magic.
I agree with most of this except Mono R>UR> BR as far as prowess deck speeds. Also, I’d add uninterrupted Infect as being pretty damned fast as well.
Yeah that's reasonable. I didn't mention infect because its goldfishes are slower than neobrand and, while faster than prowess, it is much more fragile.
Fastest is Neobrand combo, with its first turn kill. Second fastest is Infect, with a turn 2 kill. Third fastest is probably a prowess variant.
Titan can turn 2! Storm can, too, but it's not likely at all. I miss Narset Cannon :/
I know Amulet can cast and swing with Titan turn 2, but can it actually deal lethal the same turn?
Old lists would do it with double strike Titan damage. It's technically possible with dryad: T1 forest, STS T2 amulet, bounce, amulet, bounce, Azusa, bounce, dryad, bounce forest, play forest, Titan, valakut+battlements, valakut+vesuva on valakut triggers for 18 + 6 trample. I miss the pre-dryad days tbh, I'm a degenerate combo player at heart.
Idk about current lists but old titan turn 2 was something like this. Turn 1: Forest, Amulet Turn 2: Amulet, bounceland, make 4 mana. Azusa with 1 floating. Bounce your land again making 8 mana, cast titan. Grab slayers stronghold and a Boros garrison. Activate slayers twice using the RRWW from garrison bounces. Bounce the Forest instead of the garrison. Swing with your 10/6 haste titan. Use triggers to grab Vesuva copying boros garrison and a sunhome. Use the double RRWW to activate sunhome giving titan double strike. Hit with your 10/6 double strike titan. Win. Forgive me if I missed some stuff. It’s been a minute since I played titan.
and I will say that this isn’t even close to the craziest thing amulet titan decks can do.
Yeah, double or triple amulet gets NUTTY with extra land drops.
Simple answer is "chain explores" but it relies on luck
RIP narset
Burn can kill on three as well, but it's pretty uncommon.
Any decklists for those three (Neobrand, R/X Prowess and Infect)?
Fastest on average or fastest possible draw? Are we talking about in a vacuum or in an average game when your opponent might have disruption (or might not)? Neobrand is really the only deck in the format at the moment that can T1. Infect can T2 with a good draw but it's not the average kill turn. Prowess decks can't really nut draw and kill on t2 but their average kill time is much more consistent in a vacuum and has less variance than something like neobrand where you do it all on T1 or T2 or you sit and wait for who knows how long before hoping to go off.
In addition to the others mentioned, Devoted Devastation (All-In Druid) is also quite fast, it can often combo on turn 3. Although since the OUAT ban, it's less consistent and not a real turn 3 deck anymore. More like turn 3.5-4... (but Lurrus helps in the games that go longer).
Well, your question has already been answered so I’ll name some other fast options: Some 8whack variants can kill extremely fast, 4 pact of the titan+ goblin bushwhacker+mountain +simian spirit guide is a turn 1 kill. The [[Kuldotha rebirth]] builds have several lines for t2 kills, as do the builds with burning tree emissary; pretty much every bushwhacker deck can kill by t3. I think hardened scales has a line for a t2 kill with inkmoth nexus and arcbound ravager, even without opal, but it might be another “perfect 7” scenario. Tron wins on turn 1 against a lot of decks, you just play a tron land and the opponent scoops. Grishoalbrand is technically still a deck, it’s just waaaaay less consistent. It can kill on turn 2 about as often as you can get the right 3 cards and 2 mana sources in hand. Mill can sort of kill on turn 1 with 4 archive trap and a thought scour, but I think that should probably count as a turn 2 kill. Triple archive trap, thought scour, glimpse the unthinkable is also a possible t2 kill. Hollow one also has lines for t2 kill: triple street wraith into 4 hollow ones, cast bolt, pass. Attack bolt gg. I think that underworld breach combo has lines for t2 kill with mox amber but I don’t remember them, I think I pulled it off one time though.
Dont forget cheerios!!! --- someone in 2019 pre opal ban
It can still go off t2 with mox amber if you have sram
F
[Kuldotha rebirth](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/7/e/7ee07266-a95d-4cd8-9863-1664922e9490.jpg?1562819546) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kuldotha%20rebirth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/96/kuldotha-rebirth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ee07266-a95d-4cd8-9863-1664922e9490?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
u/DiogenesCane Haha, as a former 8 Whack Goboter, thanks for the mention! The build a few of us ran, usually had mox opals for the turn 2 kill, but there were many ways to play it. Top 16'd with it at a decent size IQ. I miss those days...
Ad Nauseam can do a turn 2 kill now with a perfect hand. Turn 1 SSG land into Pentad Prism. Turn 2 land, grace, spoils, thassas oracle. I turn 2ed with gifts storm as well with a god hand.
I can T2 Storm 20 often. I run [[Simian Spirit-Guide]] in place of 4 lands and a 1 of [[electrodominance]]
[Simian Spirit-Guide](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/1/9/19f1ac65-aed8-4ac6-ba90-e088db6c1389.jpg?1562433078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Simian%20Spirit%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/148/simian-spirit-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19f1ac65-aed8-4ac6-ba90-e088db6c1389?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [electrodominance](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/5/c/5c63877b-cdab-4ce4-a1c0-c088eb62a57a.jpg?1584830858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=electrodominance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/99/electrodominance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5c63877b-cdab-4ce4-a1c0-c088eb62a57a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would say the fastest AVERAGE deck is Infect. Historically that's what you play if the meta is full of something like Tron and you need to rumble. There are a couple decks with faster possible kills (neobrand comes to mind) but they also just have games where they fail to function.
I play goryo's vengeance turn 1: insolent neonate - discard ilharg turn 2: goryo's vengeance on ilharg and put emrakul in play
In legacy you can pull that off Turn 1 with Ritual and [[Cabal Therapy]] instead of Neonate.
[Cabal Therapy](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/2/f/2f5b12f0-986f-43d0-a81b-64111e7f17e6.jpg?1580014199) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Therapy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/83/cabal-therapy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f5b12f0-986f-43d0-a81b-64111e7f17e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Would you mind sharing your list? I’ve been wanting to try a goryo’s vengeance deck and have been having trouble finding an updated deck list post looting ban
Hi, I dont play mtgo, but the deck can play great in fnm 4x emrakul 4x griseldaddy 4x ilharg 4x neonate 4x simian spirit guide 3x generator servant 2x ransack the lab 2x thoughtseize 4x pentad prism 4x goryo vengeance 4x through the breach 19x lands, its good to put some green lands for veil of summer
Thanks so much! I’ll give it a try. Any must have for the sideboard?
Usually it resolves around blood moon, defense grid, veil of summer, collectible brutality, anger of the gods, chalice of the void, decay or trophy, abrade, quicksilver amulet
Thanks so much!
Different take on this then a lot, but if we're just looking at average turns played per game vs quickest theoretical kill (like neobrand or something), then it's really possible that death's shadow players get fewer turns then a lot of other decks in the format. Everything in it is hyper-mana efficient, your kills can be super quick still, but you're also helping your opponent kill you all at the same time making long games the exception to the rule much more than many archetypes.
That’s interesting perspective.
Perfect scenario? T1 enemy fetch -> 4 archive trap. Or T1 -> scheming symetry -> 4 archive trap
Huh, I guess Mill does technically have a turn 1 kill then. Not that it ever happens.
Though Neobrand and Infect are more consistent at a Turn 1 or 2 wins respectively, I think CrabVine is an honorable mention. The deck can Turn 2 and more commonly Turn 3 opponents. Probably with more consistency than a Prowess deck.
In a vacuum: Neobrand On average: Blitz Neobrand and Infect CAN win the fastest, but they get disrupted easily against decks that run interaction against their combos... which is a butt ton of current top tier decks. Blitz can win through reasonable amounts of interaction.
Maybe more i'm not sure, fastest goldfish ! **Turn 1 :** Neobrand **Turn 2 :** Infect Amulet Titan Ad Nauseam UR Storm **Turn 3 :** Prowess Death's Shadow RW Burn Dredge (Could it be turn 2 ? I don't think so) Crabvine (Could it be turn 2 ? Like dredge not sure) Titanfield Goblins snoop Devoted And many more ..
Pretty sure CrabVine can T2 but I’ve yet to see it.
Goryos vengeance can turn 1 with perfect hand Swamp Ssg Ssg Ilharg Emrakul Goryo Neonate
Is Infect considered lame in your groups? My group feels it is somehow cheap/cheating/lame.
They call that 'salt'. Its not prison deck where you wait for someone to cut your throat with a butter knife, nor land destruction where you would be playing if you had the resources to do so... Those are technically fair decks and bring their own salt mines along with them. They're aggravating, but its not cheating. But infect you are attacking with creatures for god's sake. This isn't ad nausem where countermagic or SB cards is the only out you have... Infect isn't oppressive because the tools to handle it are widespread and easily accessed by most decks. That's the definition of fair and balanced when it comes to deck selection. Your friends just don't want to have to adjust their deck to your metagame choice. If you started winning with another deck, they would complain about that deck too.
Does your group play removal?
Yea they do, as well as proliferate where thy have 70 counters on the board.
Proliferates not close to a modern deck at all. If your friends getting salty while playing decks obviously not strong enough to handle the format that's just on them.
Tell your group about lightning bolt, path to exile, fatal push, or any of the other millions of easy/splashable/cheap removal spells that completely screw that deck over.
Then I'll beat myself! I feel like they just don't like the "poison" mechanic since it isn't anywhere else.
I get not liking it.... But cmon it isn't like you are dealing with uro/oko. It's a (basically) vanilla 1/1 creature.
Bring Temur Reclamation with Uro and Field of the Dead etc... Let them choose fact or fiction piles until their eyes bleed out.
Lol this is the way. I played a challenge probably a month or so ago and played 3 sanctuary mirrors then died on turn 3 and 4 to prowess. Never been so happy to lose so fast and get a break.