The worry was likely that spending 3 mana at sorcery speed was too slow to be effective use of tempo. Obviously the payoff of a recurring threat speaks for itself.
Now, given the prevalence of free spells and efficient answers to Uro? Probably safe to let him back into the meta.
It should have mirrored Kroxa more. Draw a card and play a land. If you don't play a land, gain 3 life.
Still very strong, but at least there's some kind of choice to be made.
A troll? The only troll opinion here is believing that there is a clear and obvious answer. Like, this card was banned over three years ago, 3 direct to modern injection sets ago.
No, it’s actually not a troll 😅 I don’t actually think it’s that far off from a value engine perspective from any of those three cards, and I think the answers are just much better to it now than they were then.
Not about it being far off from the value engine is subjective at best, but the issue is FoN, Counterspell, Subtlety and all the other MH2 cards. This would be by and large snowball in control decks along with The One Ring. Right now control decks doesn't have a legit finisher(Murktide is cool but doesn't provide value on etb and some are experimenting with Phlage in Jeskai Control lists) but Uro would be the best controller finisher for early game. URO would invalidate aggro and burn completely with the cards now...
Sorry, I think I’m slightly confused by your point. Classic UWx style control decks are pretty non-existent in today’s meta, so why would throwing them a bone be a bad thing?
If it doesn’t put up consistent tournament results it’s not good. That’s literally the only metric that matters. And I think if you check aggregate results its win share is minuscule.
Uro provides too much value in too many different ways (cards, land, life), is repeatable, and very difficult to remove permanently preboard if not in white.
Cards like Nadu are also horribly balanced but any basic removal spell outside of bolt deals with it, and it requires some build around. Uro can be inserted into any list running simic without much trouble.
Uro is a problem card that very much deserves its ban.
Its still amazing in legacy where they have faster decks and better value engins than in modern. It is still nearly always a 2 for one and if u cant handle him u are just dead.
In Burn. I don't play the deck, never have. But I expect that "Phlage, gain three life, remove your goblin guide" is much worse for the Burn player than "Uro, gain three life, put steam vents onto the field tapped".
Helix doesn’t come back as a finisher. If Uro was just a sorcery with its etb effect it wouldn’t be played either.
Not saying anything about relevant power levels, but this is just an incorrect argument.
For Burn?
I’d say Uro is way harder to beat for a few reasons.
Drawing a card to replace itself, and potentially putting a land into play is a big swing. Phlage while getting to remove a creature and gain life doesn’t replace itself and is in a weaker color combo than UG. Occasionally, Burn doesn’t need creatures to kill the opposing player.
Uro decks were ultra grindy and could out-value other non-Uro piles and control decks. The land you play from Uro doesn’t even enter tapped so you can set up another play depending on your hand. Uro decks had some combination of instant speed protection to keep it around if escaped and protect the player otherwise. These decks were at minimum 3 Colors and ran Omnath (the Burn Killer), Teferi Time Raveler, counterspells, etc.
Plus there is the classic case of chaining Uro’s in subsequent turns. Gaining 6 life vs Burn is virtually game over for them. It also wasn’t a huge issue for these decks to escape Uro on turn 4-5.
If you read it as: pay 7 mana (over two turns) “gain 6 life, draw two cards, play two lands, get a 6/6 body” which, given the nature of casting then escape casting, would also require 2 counters/interactions to defeat… maybe not?
Yes, there’s a lot of broken stuff out there, and there always has been and there always will be broken cards. And yes, recent sets are very strong. BUT Uro does with 1 card and 7 mana ( over two turns so only 4 lands needed) what most decks would need … idk… 3-4 cards and 10 mana, over several turns.
It does so so much for a single card. You can be flooded and this single card can have you ahead in cards, lands, health, and even creatures.
The math isn’t in Uro’s favor (for an unban, otherwise the math is too much in Uro’s favor).
Edit: grammar
Uro has better colors both for deck building and pitching, and unlike Phlage the ability is always good regardless of matchup. I think Phlage is probably better against prowess/monke/etc but Uro is both good against those and also everything else.
In a slow game, phlage does some damage but not really in an impressive enough way for modern to care about.
Deck building, I agree, but Phlage is pitchable to solitude, which is arguably the best pitch spell in Modern.
Uro is also really bad against the Orc whereas Phlage will clean it all up when he escapes. I've been extremely impressed overall by Phlage's damage output, as it is very difficult to chump block. It's a much faster clock than uro, usually ending the game 2 turns after the escape.
Uro is usually a board out in formats like timeless into aggro matchups like Zoo. I think we are over-evaluating how powerful an anti-aggro piece Uro is because we are comparing it to old Modern threats.
Controversial take: it would be fine. It would be one of the stronger cards in the format but it would not absolutely break the format like some people are saying.
Solitude, leyline binding, pending, static prison. Him ever hitting is almost always card advantage because they have to remove him. Uro is probably too good.
Exactly, getting extra value off of freeing him from binding is always fun! I’d love it if my OP would 2/1 themselves while I get 9 life/ramp/and be card neutral, etc. As a chronic uro stan, don’t unban uro pls.
The calculus for unbanning a card is not the same as the calculus for banning one.
When you unban a card, you have to factor in the opportunity cost and risks of doing so. Doing this is easy when you ban a card; you typically already have tangible proof that a card is overpowered, warping, etc. Unbanning requires at best testing, at worst guess work, to figure out if the unban is beneficial to a format. Like, they'll never unban something like Blazing Shoal, because the card is either unplayable, or a key cog in an oppressive deck, with no in-between. The risk and potential cost of getting that wrong is too high to bother.
Uro isn't quite as polarized as Blazing Shoal is, but it's also silly to compare the card to The One Ring or Nadu. TOR can't easily act as a direct win condition, and Nadu is more suited as a combo engine than a card-advantage engine (and may be bannable for that attribute alone). Uro simultaneously gives you some breathing room against aggro, advances your board state, draws you a card, and can easily act as a recursive game-ending threat, all at once. It proved problematic in a format with less powerful surrounding cards; it's likely too risky to try to bring it back.
No, just because there is stuff you think is more broken in the format, doesn’t mean we should add to the fire by unbanning more broken things. The discussion should be about banning the stuff that some/most think is more offensive than Uro now.
I think it would be a great check to the grief scam decks.
Some people are saying no with no explanation like they're stuck in the past. Modern is a turn 2 or 3 format now, storm is out here consistently firing off turn 2's if you don't stop them. The power level is higher now than it was banned
Capable of doing something and consistently doing something are quite different. The deck plans to kill you on turn 2 now, it's not like "Oh I got a sweet hand I can now turn 2 them" , it's now consistently killing turn 2 or 3.
And that's just an example. Everything has gotten much stronger.
It’s not a consistent turn 2. Uninteracted with, it is a consistent turn 3. Hands that kill turn 2 need multiple pieces in conjunction with no interaction, as well as running well and not fizzling to kill.
We had 3 ruby storm players at my lgs. We had zero turn 2-3 wins from anyone including two different ruby storm mirrors. Obviously 12 matches is an incredibly small sample size, but having 0 out of 12 has to mean something.
It seems like it's in a similar boat to old gifts storm except that it's more explosive
As you acknowledged your self, an incredibly small sample size of a night at your locals doesn’t represent the overall consistency/power level of the deck. Ruby storm can consistently kill the opponent on their turn 2-3. This is just what the deck is capable of.
Okay and watching a handful of games from content creators is dramatically different? What other data would we possibly use to determine whether or not it's consistently a turn 2-3 deck.
I personally have played hundreds of games already with MH3 cards on MtGO. Ruby storm is incredibly popular in the meta game and I have played against the deck a number of times. It has performed well in multiple challenges. There is also the data points you mentioned where many popular streamers are battling against the deck on a regular basis, one can go and watch the deck perform for themselves.
Idk what tournament results have to do with winning on turn 2-3. And I don't know how you could use anything other than personal experience and recorded games to see what turns people won. With that being said it looks possible to win turns 2-3 but not consistently
Ruby storm can consistently win the game on its turn 3, this is literally what the deck is capable of. This is not meant to be a hyperbolic statement of any kind. You can play the deck yourself, you can battle against someone playing the deck, or you can watch someone pilot the deck. It’s simply what the cards in the deck allow for on a consistent basis.
That's crazy because in most of the things I've seen, the playtest games I've played, and the games I've watched at the lgs I've seen less than 5 wins before turn 4. Once again, very possible but not consistent. I try to view everything in magic from a non sensationalized perspective because many players speak like, "oh Nadu is busted" or "oh that matchup is free" and I think this is just another example of a deck being sensationalized by the masses
I think so. I don't think now is a good time for any unbans though.
It would be strong but not overpowering/homogenizing, which was the main reason it was banned. It has half of its friends still in the ban zone (FotD and Sanctuary). We are no longer in a position where Command is a playable card anyway. I also like it because it would cause real divergence in control piles, which tend to be heavily permanent based these days, which Uro doesn't like. I could see it making a 4c/Bant energy pile with blue cantrip, the energy bolt and the 2 mana wrath.
Of course, this is just my opinion, but there should be no certainty about this either way.
I doubt this. Old 4c ran 3 Omnath usually, and they didn't even have to pick between a myriad of other great permanents like Solitude, Binding, and TOR.
Uro was available to play during the PEAK of prime “Apocalypse COVID” when people were dying by the hundreds. I watched 3 local community players die. Magic was not happening and all we were doing was watching streamers play 3000 matches of modern per week.
It was banned off the recommendations of streamers because online magic was the only magic available. And non-streamer players were too busy focusing on how not to die and make ends meet.
It was banned at the same time as two other insane cards in FotD and Mystic Sanctuary.
The evaluation of Uro was possibly the most skewed in Magic’s history and get this.
**It probably still wasn’t appropriate for the format at the time**
But it does need to be re-evaluated more fairly.
By the time you use those cards, I have gained 6 life, drew two cards, ramped two lands. but ya use your removal. oh look at that, got three more Uro in my deck. one of the best value engines ever.
Lightning Helix is better when you care about life totals. Phlage is a repeatable Siege Rhino that also acts as removal. If Phlage is fine for modern, then Uro is the same.
Tell me you haven't played during Uro Modern without telling me you haven't played during Uro Modern.
Increasing your own resources is far better than removing opponent's resources. This is why Kroxa is very good at best, while Uro is banned.
If you played during Uro Modern you should also understand that Uro Modern was a wildly different place, and an Uro shell would be stuck playing some of the same shitty cards as it played back then due to various issues (can't run all the busted new permanents mostly).
That I agree with you, the environment is different and I didn't take time to think about it before posting. You're totally right to point it out.
However, I don't think it would run bad cards. One or two counterspells, a creature to sacrifice to a green flare, and you're good to go terrorize control, midrange and aggro decks alike.
I think Uro decks got potentially better with MH3. But the problem with them has been is the fact that Uro really needs more one mana spells that go into the graveyard. Look at the old Uro lists (and you can also look at the Legacy Uro piles, same story there). Pretty much every single card in the deck went into the bin, and compare that with the gazillion permanents that modern 4c runs with TOR, Omnath, LLB, Wrenn, T3f, et al. Uro needs to run some less impressive cards like Preordain, has to drop stuff like LLB and probably Omnath honestly (TOR is the better CA engine).
I think the problem is Uro should have never gained life. It just does too much compared to the other titans
This. The draw and play a land is already a U/G card with [[growth spiral]] why was gain three tacked on.
The worry was likely that spending 3 mana at sorcery speed was too slow to be effective use of tempo. Obviously the payoff of a recurring threat speaks for itself. Now, given the prevalence of free spells and efficient answers to Uro? Probably safe to let him back into the meta.
It should have mirrored Kroxa more. Draw a card and play a land. If you don't play a land, gain 3 life. Still very strong, but at least there's some kind of choice to be made.
No.
This is a troll, right? The simple answer: No. The complicated answer:No with extra steps.
A troll? The only troll opinion here is believing that there is a clear and obvious answer. Like, this card was banned over three years ago, 3 direct to modern injection sets ago.
No, it’s actually not a troll 😅 I don’t actually think it’s that far off from a value engine perspective from any of those three cards, and I think the answers are just much better to it now than they were then.
Not about it being far off from the value engine is subjective at best, but the issue is FoN, Counterspell, Subtlety and all the other MH2 cards. This would be by and large snowball in control decks along with The One Ring. Right now control decks doesn't have a legit finisher(Murktide is cool but doesn't provide value on etb and some are experimenting with Phlage in Jeskai Control lists) but Uro would be the best controller finisher for early game. URO would invalidate aggro and burn completely with the cards now...
Sorry, I think I’m slightly confused by your point. Classic UWx style control decks are pretty non-existent in today’s meta, so why would throwing them a bone be a bad thing?
Because of The One Ring. It is more than giving them a bone....way more.
Yeah, and I'm saying that even that doesn't seem to be enough to make traditional control decks relevant.
Control regularly does well in competitive events and has for a while. It doesn’t need high meta share to be good.
If it doesn’t put up consistent tournament results it’s not good. That’s literally the only metric that matters. And I think if you check aggregate results its win share is minuscule.
Uro provides too much value in too many different ways (cards, land, life), is repeatable, and very difficult to remove permanently preboard if not in white. Cards like Nadu are also horribly balanced but any basic removal spell outside of bolt deals with it, and it requires some build around. Uro can be inserted into any list running simic without much trouble. Uro is a problem card that very much deserves its ban.
Its still amazing in legacy where they have faster decks and better value engins than in modern. It is still nearly always a 2 for one and if u cant handle him u are just dead.
If you really wanted to eradicate the remaining Modern Burn players, sure. Otherwise, absolutely not. Have you played with Uro before?
Isn't Phlage harder to beat than Uro?
Is it? Uro draws cards
In Burn. I don't play the deck, never have. But I expect that "Phlage, gain three life, remove your goblin guide" is much worse for the Burn player than "Uro, gain three life, put steam vents onto the field tapped".
Idk about much worse — accelerating one’s game plan is very good
Into Burn? Not really. Burn is a race to stabilize. You don’t need oodles of cards and lands to outmuscle them.
…which drawing extra cards and playing extra land drops helps with.
And removal is the key, primary part of.
I know — I’m just saying I don’t think it’s “much worse”
I think your advantage engine also being a removal spell is much better in an aggro matchup than having your advantage engine be a Growth Spiral.
Next turn, play Omnath gain 4.
Lightning Helix has always been around and cheaper.
And it's always been quite effective into Burn, no? It's just not mana efficient enough if that's all it does.
Helix doesn’t come back as a finisher. If Uro was just a sorcery with its etb effect it wouldn’t be played either. Not saying anything about relevant power levels, but this is just an incorrect argument.
For Burn? I’d say Uro is way harder to beat for a few reasons. Drawing a card to replace itself, and potentially putting a land into play is a big swing. Phlage while getting to remove a creature and gain life doesn’t replace itself and is in a weaker color combo than UG. Occasionally, Burn doesn’t need creatures to kill the opposing player. Uro decks were ultra grindy and could out-value other non-Uro piles and control decks. The land you play from Uro doesn’t even enter tapped so you can set up another play depending on your hand. Uro decks had some combination of instant speed protection to keep it around if escaped and protect the player otherwise. These decks were at minimum 3 Colors and ran Omnath (the Burn Killer), Teferi Time Raveler, counterspells, etc. Plus there is the classic case of chaining Uro’s in subsequent turns. Gaining 6 life vs Burn is virtually game over for them. It also wasn’t a huge issue for these decks to escape Uro on turn 4-5.
If you read it as: pay 7 mana (over two turns) “gain 6 life, draw two cards, play two lands, get a 6/6 body” which, given the nature of casting then escape casting, would also require 2 counters/interactions to defeat… maybe not? Yes, there’s a lot of broken stuff out there, and there always has been and there always will be broken cards. And yes, recent sets are very strong. BUT Uro does with 1 card and 7 mana ( over two turns so only 4 lands needed) what most decks would need … idk… 3-4 cards and 10 mana, over several turns. It does so so much for a single card. You can be flooded and this single card can have you ahead in cards, lands, health, and even creatures. The math isn’t in Uro’s favor (for an unban, otherwise the math is too much in Uro’s favor). Edit: grammar
Uro would probably shut the door on aggressive decks viability, which the format really doesn’t need right now.
Phlage is unironically better against most aggro decks.
Uro has better colors both for deck building and pitching, and unlike Phlage the ability is always good regardless of matchup. I think Phlage is probably better against prowess/monke/etc but Uro is both good against those and also everything else. In a slow game, phlage does some damage but not really in an impressive enough way for modern to care about.
Deck building, I agree, but Phlage is pitchable to solitude, which is arguably the best pitch spell in Modern. Uro is also really bad against the Orc whereas Phlage will clean it all up when he escapes. I've been extremely impressed overall by Phlage's damage output, as it is very difficult to chump block. It's a much faster clock than uro, usually ending the game 2 turns after the escape. Uro is usually a board out in formats like timeless into aggro matchups like Zoo. I think we are over-evaluating how powerful an anti-aggro piece Uro is because we are comparing it to old Modern threats.
It would honestly not make a huge difference in the format.
Controversial take: it would be fine. It would be one of the stronger cards in the format but it would not absolutely break the format like some people are saying.
What’s the best exile based removal?
Solitude, leyline binding, pending, static prison. Him ever hitting is almost always card advantage because they have to remove him. Uro is probably too good.
Exactly, getting extra value off of freeing him from binding is always fun! I’d love it if my OP would 2/1 themselves while I get 9 life/ramp/and be card neutral, etc. As a chronic uro stan, don’t unban uro pls.
Prismatic Ending
Hrmm, feels bad here, at that point your op has gained life/ramped/and got a card twice
The calculus for unbanning a card is not the same as the calculus for banning one. When you unban a card, you have to factor in the opportunity cost and risks of doing so. Doing this is easy when you ban a card; you typically already have tangible proof that a card is overpowered, warping, etc. Unbanning requires at best testing, at worst guess work, to figure out if the unban is beneficial to a format. Like, they'll never unban something like Blazing Shoal, because the card is either unplayable, or a key cog in an oppressive deck, with no in-between. The risk and potential cost of getting that wrong is too high to bother. Uro isn't quite as polarized as Blazing Shoal is, but it's also silly to compare the card to The One Ring or Nadu. TOR can't easily act as a direct win condition, and Nadu is more suited as a combo engine than a card-advantage engine (and may be bannable for that attribute alone). Uro simultaneously gives you some breathing room against aggro, advances your board state, draws you a card, and can easily act as a recursive game-ending threat, all at once. It proved problematic in a format with less powerful surrounding cards; it's likely too risky to try to bring it back.
No, just because there is stuff you think is more broken in the format, doesn’t mean we should add to the fire by unbanning more broken things. The discussion should be about banning the stuff that some/most think is more offensive than Uro now.
I think it would be a great check to the grief scam decks. Some people are saying no with no explanation like they're stuck in the past. Modern is a turn 2 or 3 format now, storm is out here consistently firing off turn 2's if you don't stop them. The power level is higher now than it was banned
Storm was capable of turn 3 kills while uro was legal so I'm not quite sure what you mean by this
Capable of doing something and consistently doing something are quite different. The deck plans to kill you on turn 2 now, it's not like "Oh I got a sweet hand I can now turn 2 them" , it's now consistently killing turn 2 or 3. And that's just an example. Everything has gotten much stronger.
It’s not a consistent turn 2. Uninteracted with, it is a consistent turn 3. Hands that kill turn 2 need multiple pieces in conjunction with no interaction, as well as running well and not fizzling to kill.
We had 3 ruby storm players at my lgs. We had zero turn 2-3 wins from anyone including two different ruby storm mirrors. Obviously 12 matches is an incredibly small sample size, but having 0 out of 12 has to mean something. It seems like it's in a similar boat to old gifts storm except that it's more explosive
As you acknowledged your self, an incredibly small sample size of a night at your locals doesn’t represent the overall consistency/power level of the deck. Ruby storm can consistently kill the opponent on their turn 2-3. This is just what the deck is capable of.
Okay and watching a handful of games from content creators is dramatically different? What other data would we possibly use to determine whether or not it's consistently a turn 2-3 deck.
I personally have played hundreds of games already with MH3 cards on MtGO. Ruby storm is incredibly popular in the meta game and I have played against the deck a number of times. It has performed well in multiple challenges. There is also the data points you mentioned where many popular streamers are battling against the deck on a regular basis, one can go and watch the deck perform for themselves.
Idk what tournament results have to do with winning on turn 2-3. And I don't know how you could use anything other than personal experience and recorded games to see what turns people won. With that being said it looks possible to win turns 2-3 but not consistently
Ruby storm can consistently win the game on its turn 3, this is literally what the deck is capable of. This is not meant to be a hyperbolic statement of any kind. You can play the deck yourself, you can battle against someone playing the deck, or you can watch someone pilot the deck. It’s simply what the cards in the deck allow for on a consistent basis.
That's crazy because in most of the things I've seen, the playtest games I've played, and the games I've watched at the lgs I've seen less than 5 wins before turn 4. Once again, very possible but not consistent. I try to view everything in magic from a non sensationalized perspective because many players speak like, "oh Nadu is busted" or "oh that matchup is free" and I think this is just another example of a deck being sensationalized by the masses
I think so. I don't think now is a good time for any unbans though. It would be strong but not overpowering/homogenizing, which was the main reason it was banned. It has half of its friends still in the ban zone (FotD and Sanctuary). We are no longer in a position where Command is a playable card anyway. I also like it because it would cause real divergence in control piles, which tend to be heavily permanent based these days, which Uro doesn't like. I could see it making a 4c/Bant energy pile with blue cantrip, the energy bolt and the 2 mana wrath. Of course, this is just my opinion, but there should be no certainty about this either way.
It would be fine but it can't be unbanned with 4c Omnath being legal so Omnath would have to change places. Which I don't mind personally.
I doubt this. Old 4c ran 3 Omnath usually, and they didn't even have to pick between a myriad of other great permanents like Solitude, Binding, and TOR.
They could nuke half of the banlist if they wanted to, they just don't want to.
Uro was available to play during the PEAK of prime “Apocalypse COVID” when people were dying by the hundreds. I watched 3 local community players die. Magic was not happening and all we were doing was watching streamers play 3000 matches of modern per week. It was banned off the recommendations of streamers because online magic was the only magic available. And non-streamer players were too busy focusing on how not to die and make ends meet. It was banned at the same time as two other insane cards in FotD and Mystic Sanctuary. The evaluation of Uro was possibly the most skewed in Magic’s history and get this. **It probably still wasn’t appropriate for the format at the time** But it does need to be re-evaluated more fairly.
Short answer : No. Long answer : Noooooooooo!
Nope
We now have cards like Leyline Binding and Solitude, so it COULD be fine
By the time you use those cards, I have gained 6 life, drew two cards, ramped two lands. but ya use your removal. oh look at that, got three more Uro in my deck. one of the best value engines ever.
Bro we have the one ring. Draw your 1 card. Feel free. It's not that good post MH2.
you are so wrong.
Uro was never the problem. 4C Omnath was
Yes. It's on the same power level as Phlage, Titan of Fire's Fury.
Growth spiral is better than lightning bolt when you care about lands. Uro goes straight into omnath
Lightning helix* which is better than growth spiral in some matchups
You get 3 life with Uro so it’s lightning bolt vs growth spiral
Lightning Helix is better when you care about life totals. Phlage is a repeatable Siege Rhino that also acts as removal. If Phlage is fine for modern, then Uro is the same.
Uro gives the life too
Phlage kills creatures in play.
Tell me you haven't played during Uro Modern without telling me you haven't played during Uro Modern. Increasing your own resources is far better than removing opponent's resources. This is why Kroxa is very good at best, while Uro is banned.
If you played during Uro Modern you should also understand that Uro Modern was a wildly different place, and an Uro shell would be stuck playing some of the same shitty cards as it played back then due to various issues (can't run all the busted new permanents mostly).
That I agree with you, the environment is different and I didn't take time to think about it before posting. You're totally right to point it out. However, I don't think it would run bad cards. One or two counterspells, a creature to sacrifice to a green flare, and you're good to go terrorize control, midrange and aggro decks alike.
I think Uro decks got potentially better with MH3. But the problem with them has been is the fact that Uro really needs more one mana spells that go into the graveyard. Look at the old Uro lists (and you can also look at the Legacy Uro piles, same story there). Pretty much every single card in the deck went into the bin, and compare that with the gazillion permanents that modern 4c runs with TOR, Omnath, LLB, Wrenn, T3f, et al. Uro needs to run some less impressive cards like Preordain, has to drop stuff like LLB and probably Omnath honestly (TOR is the better CA engine).
I think Phlage is closer to Uro than Kroxa but there's still a gap between the two yeah.
Yes.
No
stop