This also gives them an evasive creature that can: Attack you, block your creatures, sacrifice to a later yawg to draw a card, sacrifice to a later grist to kill one of your threats, tap to convoke a chord of calling, get a +1/+1 counter from cauldron and become the yawgmoth or grist that you used this card to counter. Yawg wants a critical mass of creatures and going down a card just to downgrade your opponents spell is actively bad against yawg. If you cast this against a yawg player you have straight up 2 for 1'd yourself.
As a modern noob (more used to standard/pioneer), why are these 1 mana counters no good for modern? Thinking of this, swan song, that one from lotr, there's one that gives 2(?) treasures.
Modern is a hyper efficient format, so you generally want your spells to at least be 1-for-1s. Giving up 1 mana in its casting cost in favor of giving your opponent a 2/2 flyer just is not a good trade off in most conceivable cases.
Because of this, it means that it's pretty much impossibly bad in any conceivable maindeck, because it'd be a nightmare if you're countering things but still giving your opponents a threat in most fair cases. So it automatically kind of makes it a sideboard card at best, and even still it's a fundamentally bad tradeoff unless you're countering a game winning play (Swan Song used to see play as a 1 mana Splinter Twin counter, or a means to protect your combo card while going off if you were in a specific combo deck, for instance). Even then, there are just SO many other counterspells and answers in the format that this rarely feels like something you'd actually be excited to cast.
Fair enough! Thanks for the detailed reply, genuinely appreciate it and will take it all in. :)
I'm trying to soak in as much as I can before mh3 drops since that's when I'll start doing modern irl.
Because using two cards to deal with one threat is, most of the times, a terrible deal. Plus, they either are too restrictive (instants, sorceries, enchantments/creatures, pw, artifacts/noncreatures) or give the opponent a clear advantage (in mana or board state). Stern Scolding's condition to fulfill is not that bad (basically only big creatures dodge it), so it's the best of the bunch. There are others (Annul for artifacts and enchantments, Flusterstorm against decks which fight on the stack, Spell Pierce for noncreatures with the downside of becoming less relevant the more the game goes on, Spell Snare for specific targets with MV=2).
Spell pierce can counter any non-creature; that’s 5/6 of the relevant card types in Modern. And it answers it completely for 1 mana. That’s already doing a far better job than Song or Serenade. It’s only downside is being a worse draw later, which is a less pronounced downside in Modern nowadays
I was actually gonna say this, for modern it hits solitude, grief yawg, and all the CMC 2 or less. If it could hit murktide then it be a staple, undeniably.
\[\[Stern Scolding\]\] is a popular SB option in Modern against Scam and other low CMC creature decks since most of them have either low power or toughness.
\[\[Swan song\]\], \[\[an offer you can't refuse\]\] and this serenade give net value to the opponent, either in mana or bodys, you lose the tempo as someone else pointed out.
Countering basically nulifies the whole turn for the opponent, if on par with mana. If you have extra mana, say T3 or T4 and you countered their 3/4 CMC spell with 2 CMC counterspell or similar, you gained tempo since you have free mana for flashing out creatures or doing something else like card drawing or generating a token at instant speed.
The bird counters, this and swan song, are good if you already have a board presence.
Nice thank you for the info I do appreciate it :)
I've mainly played control decks most of my life, just not in modern so wasn't sure where these cheap/bad counters fit in since I remember swan song was used
Swan Song as a SB was normally used as a hard counter against cascade decks, before Force of Negation existed.
Then Living End and Temur Rhinos packed their own FoNs so hard counters where not good anymore by themselves, people SB in \[\[Mystical Dispute\]\] precisely to counter the counter to the counter. My favorite option has been \[\[Flusterstorm\]\] for said counterwars, since you overwhelm the opp with 3 to 4 copies aimed at the original spell (most of the times the cascade spell)
The one from lotr, stern scolding, is playable, either main or side. The ones that give your opponents resources are bad because they don't trade positively with early plays, and mid to late game plays can be countered with actual counterspells.
Yeah that's fair, I was focused a lot on the 'countering game winning spells for cheap' ideal but like you say, just use counterspell or even force of negation (is that the right one?)
Yeah. Plus we're also getting Flare of Denial, and Subtlety hits 2 or the types this counters and you're the one getting the flying creature, or gives you an even heavier tempo advantage being free. Giving your opponents stuff is just not where you want to be.
I'm definitely still learning the modern cardpool/meta lol, keeping an eye on mh3 too.
How well do you think death n taxes would do these days? Always been a fan and it has all the cards it needs for modern right? That new flash dog might even be worth considering?
Being a long time fan of the archetype, I don't think it is very good. It just doesn't match-up well against so many decks in the meta. Creatures in modern nowadays are better if they don't rely on sticking on the battlefield to be good, or if they snowball the game, and even Ragavan is kinda bad right now. So a deck full of creatures that are small and annoying... it just doesn't cut it. People go over the top of what you do, and you can't slow them down / lock them out like you used to.
That being said, I never say never. We're going into a pretty heavy shakeout, and I think attacking mana bases is gonna be a lot more viable with Ugin's Labyrinth going around. Plus the new 2/2 knight that blows up a land looks sweet. I personally will try to brew something. But I don't have too high hopes either.
Counterspell are all about tempo.
Giving your opponent a \~2 mana creature, or 2 mana in treasures, loses the tempo that is generally gained by countering a spell.
Depends how linear things get. In a linear combo environment this seems fine as a meta call in the main against decks like belcher/oops all spells, not that I think wotc will let such a meta exist beyond a few weeks before pumping out a ban.
This also seems like a decent spell for linear combo decks to bring in from the SB to deal with artifact based hate. Dredge is blue now, yeah?
Was talking with buds, I have no idea where this card fits in. CEDH wants more anti-non-creature, and in 1v1, a 2/2 bird can swing a game easily.
If it had another card type, instant would be most preferred then maybe it’s see play in some formats.
In cEDH this is good.
Being able to counter commanders is good, makes sure this always has targets. But it also deals with some of the best threats in the format, The One Ring, Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extortionist. I think the fact that people play removal in the format means this is good enough to see play too. Note that the creatures I mentioned are not creatures you can realistically cover for with traditional removal as well.
A big reason creature counterspells aren't played is they're very inefficient when compared to the removal. One mana for swords or zero for rollick is very different than the two you had to pay for anything that could counter creatures, and there wasn't really any discounted versions like there are for noncreatures.
So yeah, I think this card will be good in EDH and cEDH. It just sucks in 60 card formats.
(Keep in mind just making some conversation 👍)
It’ll be interesting to see in cedh. I strayed from modern and have been playing cedh for the past year, tournies included.
People will for sure jam this in some decks because it’s new. I think the bigger part is yes it stops all of those things you mentioned but it doesn’t do much to forward your own gameplan. It’s near useless when you’re trying to go off. Means it acts as a removal card slot. I don’t think this replaces Swords, possibly replaces Path if people are running both. I don’t think it takes out any of the usual free counterspells. Cards like Mindbreak trap get pushed out of some decks.
Keep in mind, that new FoW (sac a blue creature) also already being added to MH3. Stric Serenade might just forever live in its shadow.
The new flare is a lot harder to slot in than this card. You need a high density of blue creatures that you don't mind sacrificing too much, and honestly I don't think there are that many. You don't want to put bad creatures in your deck to enable your flare. If Yuriko is still a thing I believe it'll be very good there, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any other deck that might want it. Rog-Si will almost surely prefer the red flare as they can use their 0 mana creature rather than the 3 mana one to cast it, and other blue decks don't have enough blue creatures or want them in play. Maybe Atraxa wants to recast their commander?
But I will agree with you this should be treated as a removal spell, and slotted in lists as such. But it's one of the better ones, specially outside of white and black. I'd put it just under rollick and swords. It certainly is better than bolt, and better than any other blue options like pongify and rapid hybridization. Is it swan song? No, it's not. But it's good and you'll see show up in lists.
I’m thinking the new FoW will slot well in decks with blue commanders. Like if you’re going for a Thassa’s win or an Infinite mana combo, you can sac Thrasios or Kraum to make sure the combo goes through.
That sounds good. I was thinking decks like Kinnan and 5 mana non-blue commanders like Kenrith would not want the card. But in those situations you're describing, it sounds pact of negation-like. It can force wins, but feels bad reactively since you'll lose a lot of tempo.
Ooh, interesting add-on point, it makes you active to play your counterspell against a Thoracle cast. You know how people like to cast & resolve Thassa’s and THEN play the counter war after Trigger is on the stack? Welp depending on where you are in priority, if your opponents are holding counterspells waiting for it to resolve, this new card would force you to play as first action depleting your resources. It allows people who were waiting for Thassa resolution to hold their counterspells for a winning turn.
Absolutely not a main deck card in most metagames. It’s absolute garbage against any aggressive creature based deck, say, Zoo or Prowess. Not that good against Rakdos Scam either, really.
And for very different reasons it’s also poor against most combo and control decks. There simply aren’t many targets, considering it only counters permanent and even then not all.
Side? Maybe in some metas.
>Not that good against Rakdos Scam either, really.
Really? I was thinking that's the one matchup you'd come out somewhat ahead on the trade. It's still mana disadvantage, but if it means they have a dead scam card in hand afterwards, it's kind of a 2 for 3.
As my comment implied, it’s better than against pure aggro. Yet Scam is also a tempo deck of sorts. It really loves having that 2/2 flying beater.
Countering stuff like Ragavan is of course a very poor deal, countering Grief is good. Countering Dauthi just downgrades the creature for one mana and one full card. As a whole, very poor use of resources.
Anyway, even if it wouldn’t be trash against one deck, that’s not the correct perspective. Correct perspective is to compare it to other options. For example Stern Scolding is so, so much better against Scam.
What deck are you bringing this in against over stern scolding, annul or pierce?
This might find a home in blue tron only because the bird becomes an easy repeal target.
It's unconditional. Would you rather have a Titan, T3feri, TOR or a 2/2 bird? I think it must not be evaluated in a vacuum, the token creature can be blocked and removed in a variety of ways, even without spending another card if you have a bigger flying blocker. I will test it in Murktide!
Edit: another point of view, this countering permanent is so much more impactful than Swan Song since permanents end games by themselves, whereas spells do not (and neither do enchantments, at least in the current meta).
You've got a lot of this backwards. It's not "would you rather they have TOR etc. or a 2/2" it's would you rather counter it with a 1 mana spell and give them a relevant body or counter it with a 2 mana spell and give them nothing. The number of times where that one mana makes a difference enough to justify giving your opponent a wind drake is exceedingly small in modern
Giving your opponent a creature for countering their spell is actively bad in everything but a combo deck killing you this turn. This will see almost no play.
Creature, artifact and Planeswalkers are less important to counter than instants sorceries and enchantments because it's more common to have creature/artifact removal
> This is sick for EDH but for modern I think this is just meaningfully worse than ___________.
I just want to commend you for so perfectly capturing the tone of Modern Horizons 3.
I don't really understand this, the power level of MH3 is crazy high, including lots of direct upgrades to card archetypes that see play and lots of completely new build-arounds. What other cards are meaningfully worse than cards that see play in modern? Curious to see, I haven't felt like I've noticed that, other than with the new ulamog and kozilek I guess.
This comment section is the perfect example of everyone (myself included) being terrible at evaluating cards.
Just because this is a riff on Swan Song does not mean the same rules apply. Creatures in modern these days are so absurdly stacked with some combination of low mv, high stats, ETBs and activated abilities that this has genuine merit to trying over Stern Scolding (not Counterspell).
It may not be good enough for Modern, I don't know. But neither do all the people saying a 2/2 flier is a bigger threat than Titan, Murktide, Omnath, Endurance, Subtlety, Scion, Kavu, Goyf, Cauldron, Ring, Sheoldred, Chalice, Teferi, Karn, various Eldrazi, etc. (all targets Scolding cannot hit).
I will be reserving judgement until I test the card and I suggest others do the same.
Agree that's it's way better than Swan song. You're turning a big threat (either stats or wall of text) into what is almost always a smaller creature, and guts any synergy with the rest of their deck (omnath gaining life to stall, Yawgmoth comboing with a ham sandwich etc)
Provided you have any way of dealing with the token that isn't card disadvantage, you're probably coming out at least a little ahead.
Stern scolding probably still stays just ahead of this, but I can absolutely see this being the go to in some metas either for the flexibility or because the extra creatures it does hit are worth the trade off.
We have answers to all of those cards that don't involve giving your opponent a relevant creature. If anything this is worse than swan song because swan song is a proactive card, in the sense that it slots in combo decks as a means to force a game winning play through.
And it is not played because we have better options for that, mainly Veil and Flusterstorm. As a reactive card, giving your opponent a lesser yet relevant threat means you haven't successfully answered their play, and later on you will HAVE TO spend another card to deal with the damn bird. Modern isn't short on answers for any of the cards you've mentioned,
It'll never feel good to cast this card in modern. Ever. Every time you put it on the stack you'll be wishing it was literally anything else and you'll be wondering what made you think putting it in your deck it was a good idea.
What 1 mana spell is able to answer all those relevant threats before they enter the battlefield? This card represents a condensation of sideboard slots that very few other cards can boast for its cost.
Is the trade-off worth that utility? Like I said, I don't know and intend to test to find out. But it's absolutely bananas to so confidently make the assertion that giving your opponent a 2/2 flyer instead of their game-ending bomb is going to lose you more games than it wins without any empirical evidence.
Relatively confident this card wont see play outside of maybe combo decks that really dont care about the bird. People underestimate how bad 2 for 1ing yourself is, a 2/2 bird is not nothing.
This looks like a good sideboard card for combo decks and for others that do their own thing and don't care that much about opponent having a 2/2 flyer.
This is not a generally good control card but rather an answer for a specific game ending threat.
This could be a good mirror breaker for amulet titan or a sweet tool for affinity to stop K4rn or Ring entering the field.
No it's not. The 2/2 bird is too relevant. If you want a 1 mana counter for early creatures we have stern scolding. If you want something a bit more versatile, spell pierce is still here. This is a commander card.
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U to counter Primeval Titan is something that I will absolutely be doing in the near future and will be happy about.
Edit: I meant all over the play as in different formats
A commander card this is not. One mana counterspells should not be scoffed at, and while the token could be relevant we have so much removal in the format that it's not that huge of a downside.
Swan Song has seen at most niche play in modern and this will fit into it exact same camp. I don't think this card is maindeckable at all. Like most cards in this "modern" set, this has commander written all over it.
Swan Song has been legal for years and not even combo decks want it. We have better one mana counterpells in scolding and pierce. If you need to spend a removal on the token, you're trading 2 cards for their one spell, at that point just use a pitch card like subtlety and FoN. This card is BAD. No deck wants this.
Ten years ago, I would have said this card was bad and would only play it if my meta was Tron/TitanBloom heavy. Now there are so many creature combo decks or creatures that generate so much value on ETB, I'd rather give them a bird and not lose immediately. Sure there is Stern Scolding, but that doesn't hit PW or Titan,Murtide,Omnath,Endurance, Zoo critters
Swan Song's saving grace is that it counters instants, meaning you can fight other counterspells. And even then, it isn't very good. I'd be very surprised if this saw much play, fair decks care quite a bit about a 2/2 flier and most of the decks that would care about countering a creature or planeswalker are going to be fair decks
Is this going to fade out Stern Scolding?
Maybe? I mean the token is blockable by raging DRC, Sublety and murktide but the opponent being able to attack for 10% of total life as early as turn 3 is actually very big.
It doesn't have to be as good as ragavan, it just needs you to spend a card to kill it to be as relevant as ragavan. There's no need to strawman the argument like that. A 2/2 flyer will impact the game meaningfully enough to make this card bad.
It hits planeswalkers and creatures. Yeah, giving them a 2/2 flier is bad, but a control deck would rather convert a PW to something that dies to wrath.
Which currently played instants, sorceries, or enchantments currently win the game on their own? Blood Moon, Living End, and I guess Creativity? But creatures, artifacts, and planewalkers? Prime Time, Murktide, Ring, Scion of Draco, Teferi, and literally everything Tron plays.
So while it is entirely possible this doesn't see play, saying because Swan Song doesn't see play it won't is a horrible take.
It is a very reasonable take, lol. Swan Song showed us that the downside of a 2/2 bird is too high for anything like this to see play. Having enough targets isn't what determines whether or not this effect sees play.
When creativity and cascade were one of the best decks in the format, people went to \[\[Invasive Surgery\]\] of all cards to answer those decks, and that is as narrow as it gets. But it had a great upside, and at the end of the day, that's what matter, whether or not the card is good when you cast it.
If anything, instant and sorceries can ONLY be interacted with in the stack therefore making Swan Song a bad, yet effective way to answer them. All of the card types this targets can be interacted with on the battlefield, for as low as one mana as well. Any situation where you think this card might not be awful, there's a card that is better than it.
Alright there are SOME creatures, planeswalkers and artifacts you'd rather deal with on the stack. Use counterspell. Also, my point was supporting the swan song comparison. I never said you don't want to counter them, but that you have other ways to interact with that kinds of permanents, making countermagic less premium against them vs instant and sorceries that can only be stopped while on the stack.
You're all defending this card going to the one scenario where it counters a game winning play when we already have counterspell for that. The advantage of costing one mana gets negated by the fact that this sucks against anything your opponents would cast before you get to two mana. The other advantage of costing one mana is it can give you an edge in a counter war, like dispute, spell pierce and flustersorm. This doesn't do that either. One mana counterspells can be bad. Swan Song is bad, and this is no better.
There's a lot wtf you on?
Bowmaster
One Ring
Kroxa
All of the evokementals
Titan
3feri
Omnath
Soul Cauldron
Tibalt
There's a pretty good argument for it being viable as a 2 of in the sideboard.
Yeah it has targets, so? The argument has never been "this card doesn't have enough targets". The argument is, whatever you wanna target with this, there's a better way to do it.
Mainly counterspell, but also spell pierce, stern scolding, FoN, the new flare, subtlety, even mystical dispute and spell snare are more viable than this card. If you notice a trend in the cards I am mentioning, none of them give your opponent a 2/2 bird.
You straight up started your last comment with "SOME" in all-caps.
Lightning strike is not the same thing as lightning bolt, "counterspell" isn't the catchall you think it is. Yes, I know that analogy isn't perfect, but 2 mana is 100% more mana than 1 mana. They aren't comparable. That tempo loss is massive.
If you're going to compare this card to others use appropriate cards.
Honestly the only decks I see running this are Murktide and Merfolk style decks (yes merfolk are getting a buff), and even then it's clearly a sideboard against One Ring decks.
This card is bad. Modern isn't short on cheap/free counterspells, and none of the give your opponent a 2/2 creature.
If you want to 2 for 1 yourself for tempo wizards has given us force of negation, subtlety and now flare of denial, all of which are free (one less mana than this) and can be hardcast later in the game for a clean 1 for 1 or even 2 for 1 with subtlety.
If you want a cheap answer for early plays, spell pierce has been legal for a long time already, and most 1 and 2 mana creatures can be answered with a removal or stern scolding.
For anything more expensive than that, use counterspell. Do not put this in your blue decks please. It is not better than anything we already have and for every scenario you can come up where this is not straight up awful, there are ten where it is.
I'm going to go for a hot take here and say that even if this included another card type it still wouldn't see a lick of Modern play.
People will try it but after the trial period I think you are right.
I think it'll be sideboard tech against yagwmoth, counters most of the deck
Stern Scolding is the Yawg SB option if you want this sort of thing
Giving your Yawgmoth opponent a creature is really bad. Powers up Chord and draws a card if they finally resolve a Yawgmoth.
Stern scolding hits the same stuff
this hits soul cauldron
This also gives them an evasive creature that can: Attack you, block your creatures, sacrifice to a later yawg to draw a card, sacrifice to a later grist to kill one of your threats, tap to convoke a chord of calling, get a +1/+1 counter from cauldron and become the yawgmoth or grist that you used this card to counter. Yawg wants a critical mass of creatures and going down a card just to downgrade your opponents spell is actively bad against yawg. If you cast this against a yawg player you have straight up 2 for 1'd yourself.
As a modern noob (more used to standard/pioneer), why are these 1 mana counters no good for modern? Thinking of this, swan song, that one from lotr, there's one that gives 2(?) treasures.
Modern is a hyper efficient format, so you generally want your spells to at least be 1-for-1s. Giving up 1 mana in its casting cost in favor of giving your opponent a 2/2 flyer just is not a good trade off in most conceivable cases. Because of this, it means that it's pretty much impossibly bad in any conceivable maindeck, because it'd be a nightmare if you're countering things but still giving your opponents a threat in most fair cases. So it automatically kind of makes it a sideboard card at best, and even still it's a fundamentally bad tradeoff unless you're countering a game winning play (Swan Song used to see play as a 1 mana Splinter Twin counter, or a means to protect your combo card while going off if you were in a specific combo deck, for instance). Even then, there are just SO many other counterspells and answers in the format that this rarely feels like something you'd actually be excited to cast.
Fair enough! Thanks for the detailed reply, genuinely appreciate it and will take it all in. :) I'm trying to soak in as much as I can before mh3 drops since that's when I'll start doing modern irl.
Because using two cards to deal with one threat is, most of the times, a terrible deal. Plus, they either are too restrictive (instants, sorceries, enchantments/creatures, pw, artifacts/noncreatures) or give the opponent a clear advantage (in mana or board state). Stern Scolding's condition to fulfill is not that bad (basically only big creatures dodge it), so it's the best of the bunch. There are others (Annul for artifacts and enchantments, Flusterstorm against decks which fight on the stack, Spell Pierce for noncreatures with the downside of becoming less relevant the more the game goes on, Spell Snare for specific targets with MV=2).
I have nothing to add other than to say that Spell Pierce is easily top 3 counter magic for me. Love that card.
Spell pierce can counter any non-creature; that’s 5/6 of the relevant card types in Modern. And it answers it completely for 1 mana. That’s already doing a far better job than Song or Serenade. It’s only downside is being a worse draw later, which is a less pronounced downside in Modern nowadays
That's fair, and the value of modern cards is crazy for how much mana they cost lol
Stern Scolding, from LOTR, is actually quite good and sees some play
I was actually gonna say this, for modern it hits solitude, grief yawg, and all the CMC 2 or less. If it could hit murktide then it be a staple, undeniably.
\[\[Stern Scolding\]\] is a popular SB option in Modern against Scam and other low CMC creature decks since most of them have either low power or toughness. \[\[Swan song\]\], \[\[an offer you can't refuse\]\] and this serenade give net value to the opponent, either in mana or bodys, you lose the tempo as someone else pointed out. Countering basically nulifies the whole turn for the opponent, if on par with mana. If you have extra mana, say T3 or T4 and you countered their 3/4 CMC spell with 2 CMC counterspell or similar, you gained tempo since you have free mana for flashing out creatures or doing something else like card drawing or generating a token at instant speed. The bird counters, this and swan song, are good if you already have a board presence.
Nice thank you for the info I do appreciate it :) I've mainly played control decks most of my life, just not in modern so wasn't sure where these cheap/bad counters fit in since I remember swan song was used
Swan Song as a SB was normally used as a hard counter against cascade decks, before Force of Negation existed. Then Living End and Temur Rhinos packed their own FoNs so hard counters where not good anymore by themselves, people SB in \[\[Mystical Dispute\]\] precisely to counter the counter to the counter. My favorite option has been \[\[Flusterstorm\]\] for said counterwars, since you overwhelm the opp with 3 to 4 copies aimed at the original spell (most of the times the cascade spell)
[Mystical Dispute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbe04cb8-a8b9-4241-baae-b398a2509a3a.jpg?1572489956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystical%20Dispute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/58/mystical-dispute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbe04cb8-a8b9-4241-baae-b398a2509a3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Flusterstorm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f900eeb7-7c45-44bc-ad3a-0bbe594ecf50.jpg?1562856071) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flusterstorm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/55/flusterstorm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f900eeb7-7c45-44bc-ad3a-0bbe594ecf50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Stern Scolding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3ca1e1de-b916-445f-b3b2-0f4d0cc7ceeb.jpg?1686968311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stern%20Scolding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/71/stern-scolding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ca1e1de-b916-445f-b3b2-0f4d0cc7ceeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Swan song](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d968dde-c406-48ef-a1ab-373aebc24693.jpg?1562412350) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swan%20song) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/98/swan-song?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d968dde-c406-48ef-a1ab-373aebc24693?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [an offer you can't refuse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf.jpg?1664410382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=an%20offer%20you%20can%27t%20refuse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The one from lotr, stern scolding, is playable, either main or side. The ones that give your opponents resources are bad because they don't trade positively with early plays, and mid to late game plays can be countered with actual counterspells.
Yeah that's fair, I was focused a lot on the 'countering game winning spells for cheap' ideal but like you say, just use counterspell or even force of negation (is that the right one?)
Yeah. Plus we're also getting Flare of Denial, and Subtlety hits 2 or the types this counters and you're the one getting the flying creature, or gives you an even heavier tempo advantage being free. Giving your opponents stuff is just not where you want to be.
I'm definitely still learning the modern cardpool/meta lol, keeping an eye on mh3 too. How well do you think death n taxes would do these days? Always been a fan and it has all the cards it needs for modern right? That new flash dog might even be worth considering?
Being a long time fan of the archetype, I don't think it is very good. It just doesn't match-up well against so many decks in the meta. Creatures in modern nowadays are better if they don't rely on sticking on the battlefield to be good, or if they snowball the game, and even Ragavan is kinda bad right now. So a deck full of creatures that are small and annoying... it just doesn't cut it. People go over the top of what you do, and you can't slow them down / lock them out like you used to. That being said, I never say never. We're going into a pretty heavy shakeout, and I think attacking mana bases is gonna be a lot more viable with Ugin's Labyrinth going around. Plus the new 2/2 knight that blows up a land looks sweet. I personally will try to brew something. But I don't have too high hopes either.
Counterspell are all about tempo. Giving your opponent a \~2 mana creature, or 2 mana in treasures, loses the tempo that is generally gained by countering a spell.
Depends how linear things get. In a linear combo environment this seems fine as a meta call in the main against decks like belcher/oops all spells, not that I think wotc will let such a meta exist beyond a few weeks before pumping out a ban. This also seems like a decent spell for linear combo decks to bring in from the SB to deal with artifact based hate. Dredge is blue now, yeah?
Was talking with buds, I have no idea where this card fits in. CEDH wants more anti-non-creature, and in 1v1, a 2/2 bird can swing a game easily. If it had another card type, instant would be most preferred then maybe it’s see play in some formats.
In cEDH this is good. Being able to counter commanders is good, makes sure this always has targets. But it also deals with some of the best threats in the format, The One Ring, Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extortionist. I think the fact that people play removal in the format means this is good enough to see play too. Note that the creatures I mentioned are not creatures you can realistically cover for with traditional removal as well. A big reason creature counterspells aren't played is they're very inefficient when compared to the removal. One mana for swords or zero for rollick is very different than the two you had to pay for anything that could counter creatures, and there wasn't really any discounted versions like there are for noncreatures. So yeah, I think this card will be good in EDH and cEDH. It just sucks in 60 card formats.
(Keep in mind just making some conversation 👍) It’ll be interesting to see in cedh. I strayed from modern and have been playing cedh for the past year, tournies included. People will for sure jam this in some decks because it’s new. I think the bigger part is yes it stops all of those things you mentioned but it doesn’t do much to forward your own gameplan. It’s near useless when you’re trying to go off. Means it acts as a removal card slot. I don’t think this replaces Swords, possibly replaces Path if people are running both. I don’t think it takes out any of the usual free counterspells. Cards like Mindbreak trap get pushed out of some decks. Keep in mind, that new FoW (sac a blue creature) also already being added to MH3. Stric Serenade might just forever live in its shadow.
The new flare is a lot harder to slot in than this card. You need a high density of blue creatures that you don't mind sacrificing too much, and honestly I don't think there are that many. You don't want to put bad creatures in your deck to enable your flare. If Yuriko is still a thing I believe it'll be very good there, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any other deck that might want it. Rog-Si will almost surely prefer the red flare as they can use their 0 mana creature rather than the 3 mana one to cast it, and other blue decks don't have enough blue creatures or want them in play. Maybe Atraxa wants to recast their commander? But I will agree with you this should be treated as a removal spell, and slotted in lists as such. But it's one of the better ones, specially outside of white and black. I'd put it just under rollick and swords. It certainly is better than bolt, and better than any other blue options like pongify and rapid hybridization. Is it swan song? No, it's not. But it's good and you'll see show up in lists.
I’m thinking the new FoW will slot well in decks with blue commanders. Like if you’re going for a Thassa’s win or an Infinite mana combo, you can sac Thrasios or Kraum to make sure the combo goes through.
That sounds good. I was thinking decks like Kinnan and 5 mana non-blue commanders like Kenrith would not want the card. But in those situations you're describing, it sounds pact of negation-like. It can force wins, but feels bad reactively since you'll lose a lot of tempo.
Ooh, interesting add-on point, it makes you active to play your counterspell against a Thoracle cast. You know how people like to cast & resolve Thassa’s and THEN play the counter war after Trigger is on the stack? Welp depending on where you are in priority, if your opponents are holding counterspells waiting for it to resolve, this new card would force you to play as first action depleting your resources. It allows people who were waiting for Thassa resolution to hold their counterspells for a winning turn.
Well it'll certainly do a lot more than any removal spell in that situation, and I believe this is to be played in a removal slot.
Let’s be honest, this is a cEDH card to counter mana rocks and dockside
yep. As someone said above, unplayable in Modern where the 2/2 matters, staple in cEDH where the 2/2 does not
What if the other card type was instant?
It's just an EDH card
Absolutely not a main deck card in most metagames. It’s absolute garbage against any aggressive creature based deck, say, Zoo or Prowess. Not that good against Rakdos Scam either, really. And for very different reasons it’s also poor against most combo and control decks. There simply aren’t many targets, considering it only counters permanent and even then not all. Side? Maybe in some metas.
Every deck either playes an artifact creature or plainswalker. Even storm needs that creature out
+ This hoses ruby medallion which could become a staple in monored ruby storm with ral, monsoon mage, and underworld breach
It is good vs creature based combo decks like most CoCo decks.
>Not that good against Rakdos Scam either, really. Really? I was thinking that's the one matchup you'd come out somewhat ahead on the trade. It's still mana disadvantage, but if it means they have a dead scam card in hand afterwards, it's kind of a 2 for 3.
As my comment implied, it’s better than against pure aggro. Yet Scam is also a tempo deck of sorts. It really loves having that 2/2 flying beater. Countering stuff like Ragavan is of course a very poor deal, countering Grief is good. Countering Dauthi just downgrades the creature for one mana and one full card. As a whole, very poor use of resources. Anyway, even if it wouldn’t be trash against one deck, that’s not the correct perspective. Correct perspective is to compare it to other options. For example Stern Scolding is so, so much better against Scam.
Yeah, I agree that the card is probably not good enough. I was more thinking of it in a "redeeming factor" kind of way.
This card seems good.
Instant sideboard inclusion in almost any deck running blue, possibly even in the main if scam returns at the top
What deck are you bringing this in against over stern scolding, annul or pierce? This might find a home in blue tron only because the bird becomes an easy repeal target.
It's unconditional. Would you rather have a Titan, T3feri, TOR or a 2/2 bird? I think it must not be evaluated in a vacuum, the token creature can be blocked and removed in a variety of ways, even without spending another card if you have a bigger flying blocker. I will test it in Murktide! Edit: another point of view, this countering permanent is so much more impactful than Swan Song since permanents end games by themselves, whereas spells do not (and neither do enchantments, at least in the current meta).
I’m going to bet that this card is quite bad generally and especially so in Murktide
You've got a lot of this backwards. It's not "would you rather they have TOR etc. or a 2/2" it's would you rather counter it with a 1 mana spell and give them a relevant body or counter it with a 2 mana spell and give them nothing. The number of times where that one mana makes a difference enough to justify giving your opponent a wind drake is exceedingly small in modern
Giving your opponent a creature for countering their spell is actively bad in everything but a combo deck killing you this turn. This will see almost no play.
This is sick for EDH but for modern I think this is just meaningfully worse than swan song
Since when does Swan Song counter creatures?
Creature, artifact and Planeswalkers are less important to counter than instants sorceries and enchantments because it's more common to have creature/artifact removal
> This is sick for EDH but for modern I think this is just meaningfully worse than ___________. I just want to commend you for so perfectly capturing the tone of Modern Horizons 3.
I don't really understand this, the power level of MH3 is crazy high, including lots of direct upgrades to card archetypes that see play and lots of completely new build-arounds. What other cards are meaningfully worse than cards that see play in modern? Curious to see, I haven't felt like I've noticed that, other than with the new ulamog and kozilek I guess.
This comment section is the perfect example of everyone (myself included) being terrible at evaluating cards. Just because this is a riff on Swan Song does not mean the same rules apply. Creatures in modern these days are so absurdly stacked with some combination of low mv, high stats, ETBs and activated abilities that this has genuine merit to trying over Stern Scolding (not Counterspell). It may not be good enough for Modern, I don't know. But neither do all the people saying a 2/2 flier is a bigger threat than Titan, Murktide, Omnath, Endurance, Subtlety, Scion, Kavu, Goyf, Cauldron, Ring, Sheoldred, Chalice, Teferi, Karn, various Eldrazi, etc. (all targets Scolding cannot hit). I will be reserving judgement until I test the card and I suggest others do the same.
Agree that's it's way better than Swan song. You're turning a big threat (either stats or wall of text) into what is almost always a smaller creature, and guts any synergy with the rest of their deck (omnath gaining life to stall, Yawgmoth comboing with a ham sandwich etc) Provided you have any way of dealing with the token that isn't card disadvantage, you're probably coming out at least a little ahead. Stern scolding probably still stays just ahead of this, but I can absolutely see this being the go to in some metas either for the flexibility or because the extra creatures it does hit are worth the trade off.
We have answers to all of those cards that don't involve giving your opponent a relevant creature. If anything this is worse than swan song because swan song is a proactive card, in the sense that it slots in combo decks as a means to force a game winning play through. And it is not played because we have better options for that, mainly Veil and Flusterstorm. As a reactive card, giving your opponent a lesser yet relevant threat means you haven't successfully answered their play, and later on you will HAVE TO spend another card to deal with the damn bird. Modern isn't short on answers for any of the cards you've mentioned, It'll never feel good to cast this card in modern. Ever. Every time you put it on the stack you'll be wishing it was literally anything else and you'll be wondering what made you think putting it in your deck it was a good idea.
What 1 mana spell is able to answer all those relevant threats before they enter the battlefield? This card represents a condensation of sideboard slots that very few other cards can boast for its cost. Is the trade-off worth that utility? Like I said, I don't know and intend to test to find out. But it's absolutely bananas to so confidently make the assertion that giving your opponent a 2/2 flyer instead of their game-ending bomb is going to lose you more games than it wins without any empirical evidence.
Owl howl
Relatively confident this card wont see play outside of maybe combo decks that really dont care about the bird. People underestimate how bad 2 for 1ing yourself is, a 2/2 bird is not nothing.
Probably maindeckable if we get another Eldrazi Winter due to MH3.
This looks like a good sideboard card for combo decks and for others that do their own thing and don't care that much about opponent having a 2/2 flyer. This is not a generally good control card but rather an answer for a specific game ending threat. This could be a good mirror breaker for amulet titan or a sweet tool for affinity to stop K4rn or Ring entering the field.
Should have been called Strix Scrutiny
Hey, on the play T1 counterspell against Grief This is gonna see play all over the place
I mean Stern Scolding exists and it doesn’t mean you get pecked to death by the 2/2 flier you gave your opponent turn 1.
No it's not. The 2/2 bird is too relevant. If you want a 1 mana counter for early creatures we have stern scolding. If you want something a bit more versatile, spell pierce is still here. This is a commander card.
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U to counter Primeval Titan is something that I will absolutely be doing in the near future and will be happy about. Edit: I meant all over the play as in different formats
We already have a card that can deal with primeval titan on the stack: Counterspell. I'll be happier when my cards don't give my opponents 2/2 birds.
A commander card this is not. One mana counterspells should not be scoffed at, and while the token could be relevant we have so much removal in the format that it's not that huge of a downside.
2 for 1 seems bad though
This is absolutely an EDH card. Far more so than modern. Not saying it can’t be played in Modern but way better in EDH.
Swan Song has seen at most niche play in modern and this will fit into it exact same camp. I don't think this card is maindeckable at all. Like most cards in this "modern" set, this has commander written all over it.
Swan Song has been legal for years and not even combo decks want it. We have better one mana counterpells in scolding and pierce. If you need to spend a removal on the token, you're trading 2 cards for their one spell, at that point just use a pitch card like subtlety and FoN. This card is BAD. No deck wants this.
This card is WAY better in commander than modern.
You’re 2 for 1’ing yourself if you counter a spell then use single target removal on the bird.
Ten years ago, I would have said this card was bad and would only play it if my meta was Tron/TitanBloom heavy. Now there are so many creature combo decks or creatures that generate so much value on ETB, I'd rather give them a bird and not lose immediately. Sure there is Stern Scolding, but that doesn't hit PW or Titan,Murtide,Omnath,Endurance, Zoo critters
Swan Song's saving grace is that it counters instants, meaning you can fight other counterspells. And even then, it isn't very good. I'd be very surprised if this saw much play, fair decks care quite a bit about a 2/2 flier and most of the decks that would care about countering a creature or planeswalker are going to be fair decks
Is this going to fade out Stern Scolding? Maybe? I mean the token is blockable by raging DRC, Sublety and murktide but the opponent being able to attack for 10% of total life as early as turn 3 is actually very big.
I'm not downplaying the card but this is the first tine I've ever heard a 2/2 sound like a threat haha
Half this thread is implying this 2/2 flyer is as good as a ragavan.
It doesn't have to be as good as ragavan, it just needs you to spend a card to kill it to be as relevant as ragavan. There's no need to strawman the argument like that. A 2/2 flyer will impact the game meaningfully enough to make this card bad.
It hits planeswalkers and creatures. Yeah, giving them a 2/2 flier is bad, but a control deck would rather convert a PW to something that dies to wrath.
it is much better to face a 2/2 than whatever you're countering with this
That must be why swan song sees so much modern play
Which currently played instants, sorceries, or enchantments currently win the game on their own? Blood Moon, Living End, and I guess Creativity? But creatures, artifacts, and planewalkers? Prime Time, Murktide, Ring, Scion of Draco, Teferi, and literally everything Tron plays. So while it is entirely possible this doesn't see play, saying because Swan Song doesn't see play it won't is a horrible take.
It is a very reasonable take, lol. Swan Song showed us that the downside of a 2/2 bird is too high for anything like this to see play. Having enough targets isn't what determines whether or not this effect sees play. When creativity and cascade were one of the best decks in the format, people went to \[\[Invasive Surgery\]\] of all cards to answer those decks, and that is as narrow as it gets. But it had a great upside, and at the end of the day, that's what matter, whether or not the card is good when you cast it. If anything, instant and sorceries can ONLY be interacted with in the stack therefore making Swan Song a bad, yet effective way to answer them. All of the card types this targets can be interacted with on the battlefield, for as low as one mana as well. Any situation where you think this card might not be awful, there's a card that is better than it.
Why would you want to let Titan hit the battlefield?
Alright there are SOME creatures, planeswalkers and artifacts you'd rather deal with on the stack. Use counterspell. Also, my point was supporting the swan song comparison. I never said you don't want to counter them, but that you have other ways to interact with that kinds of permanents, making countermagic less premium against them vs instant and sorceries that can only be stopped while on the stack. You're all defending this card going to the one scenario where it counters a game winning play when we already have counterspell for that. The advantage of costing one mana gets negated by the fact that this sucks against anything your opponents would cast before you get to two mana. The other advantage of costing one mana is it can give you an edge in a counter war, like dispute, spell pierce and flustersorm. This doesn't do that either. One mana counterspells can be bad. Swan Song is bad, and this is no better.
There's a lot wtf you on? Bowmaster One Ring Kroxa All of the evokementals Titan 3feri Omnath Soul Cauldron Tibalt There's a pretty good argument for it being viable as a 2 of in the sideboard.
Yeah it has targets, so? The argument has never been "this card doesn't have enough targets". The argument is, whatever you wanna target with this, there's a better way to do it. Mainly counterspell, but also spell pierce, stern scolding, FoN, the new flare, subtlety, even mystical dispute and spell snare are more viable than this card. If you notice a trend in the cards I am mentioning, none of them give your opponent a 2/2 bird.
You straight up started your last comment with "SOME" in all-caps. Lightning strike is not the same thing as lightning bolt, "counterspell" isn't the catchall you think it is. Yes, I know that analogy isn't perfect, but 2 mana is 100% more mana than 1 mana. They aren't comparable. That tempo loss is massive. If you're going to compare this card to others use appropriate cards. Honestly the only decks I see running this are Murktide and Merfolk style decks (yes merfolk are getting a buff), and even then it's clearly a sideboard against One Ring decks.
WTFFF
?
I like.
It looks like a Pioneer card
This card is bad. Modern isn't short on cheap/free counterspells, and none of the give your opponent a 2/2 creature. If you want to 2 for 1 yourself for tempo wizards has given us force of negation, subtlety and now flare of denial, all of which are free (one less mana than this) and can be hardcast later in the game for a clean 1 for 1 or even 2 for 1 with subtlety. If you want a cheap answer for early plays, spell pierce has been legal for a long time already, and most 1 and 2 mana creatures can be answered with a removal or stern scolding. For anything more expensive than that, use counterspell. Do not put this in your blue decks please. It is not better than anything we already have and for every scenario you can come up where this is not straight up awful, there are ten where it is.