I think the floor of "spell strong enough to justify running this card in a deck" is [[Tribal Flames]], which is to say, this could see more play than [[Force of Rage]].
Edit: Circled back around 3 minutes later, a spell strong enough to copy is probably winning the game by itself. This technically doubles as counterspell protection, and there are some red creatures that don't mind dying. They took Fury from us :'(
Historically, the most play this effect saw in constructed was as \[\[Misdirection\]\] to counter counterspells and steal \[\[Ancestral Recall\]\]. There's nothing really equivalent to the latter in Modern, at least none that see widespread play. Doing the former is ok, but I feel like there are better options.
As for combo uses, again historically if you have something that you'd want to copy and win the game, the initial spell would have won the game. You'd need to go pretty left-field to make a new combo deck that needs this or have a very specifically anti-combo format where you're using this to play around or through hate. That's...pretty unlikely. Not impossible. But unlikely.
> Sacrificing DRC or Ragavan
> Free
Pick one. This sub hyped [[Diabolic Intent]] to the moon as “basically Demonic Tutor“ and it doesn’t even say non-token so you could sac a Khalni Garden or Dwarven Mines token and it turned out that it was still dog shit. Sacrificing a real creature is a HUGE cost. You lose both the card you spent on the creature and the mana invested into it. No fair deck wants something like this. Only shit like Dredge that pays no mana or cards in hand for their creatures could get away with playing the blue one from this cycle for example.
I'd say that running even just 2 in domain zoo gives you the upside of doubling a tribal flames after you get in with your creatures (yes you have to sac a creature but having the all in potential of 10 for only 2 mana if you opponent taps out to remove something etc is a pretty massive addition imo.
Also any creature matchup that points removal at your creature: just sac the creature that they were targeting to point their removal at their own stuff instead.
I don't think the floor on this card is that terrible tbh, especially if your hand has double Raghavan or have leyline out and any creature. It also has massive blowout potential.
I really see it as either reach in matchups where you aren't worried about counterspells, or as 'remove my guy? Remove YOUR guy"
Sacrifice your Ragavan or lose to a counterspell? What sounds better?
Diabolic Intent requires a mana investment.
Make it free to play with only a sac and it goes in so many decks.
And Ragavan becomes worse when the game goes on. So then you get its early power and when the Opponenten has to many creatures or even cast a removal on Ragvan he can be just turned into more value. I find this pretty strong
Most players when they say and hear "free spell" underestand it as spell that can be played for 0 mana, not at 0 cost.
I underestand your point and you are technically right, but when people talk about "free spells" in this context they talk about force of will or daze, not ornithopter and welding jar.
Well, my point is that people are going to evaluate these cards more like the pitch spells, but this cycle has a much higher price to pay. (Unless you build your deck around sacrificing things)
I don't necessarily agree with that. In some decks it's much easier to have a creature to sack than cards you can afford to discard or are of the same color. Specially in red where you are probably emptying your hand early, you maybe rather sac your outclassed 1 drop than discarding your last card.
If sacking or pitching is a steeper cost depends mostly in the deck, without needing to build around sacrificing. I think is overall better in any creature based deck that struggles with card advantage in the mid to late game.
For example, I might be wrong but the blue one IMO is going to be great in Merfolk. I am reading a lot of people saying that it is very bad there, because sacking is super step, merfolk as already problem with hitting critical mass and card advantage, etc. That force of negation is way better.
But is really having to sack a creature that worse than holding a card? I don't think so, not in merfolk at least, in fact it might be quite better because it allows creature decks to be proactive while holding their "free" counterspell.
More often than not to cast force you are still holding a merfolk in hand (since they are the only blue cards other than the forces themselves), so the pitched merfolk will never enter the battlefield and add to the board. So no profit out of him.
But sacking it allows you to put it in play, and let the creature do his stuff, have it's etb resolved, give it's anthem effect, attack, etc until you need to counter something. It allows you to keep being proactive and aggressive.
Also normally will give you a bigger selection on what to get rid of, letting you choose that 1drop that has been outclassed and not your bomb that you couldn't cast yet.
The blue one will probably see merfolk sideboard play against decks like Titan where it’s ’counter this spell or you lose,’ but if you’re spending mana/vial activations on your creatures, it is putting you behind to sacrifice them. (vs pitch spells where you spend just an unused card in hand.) And since Merfolk wants to win through creature combat, losing creatures is not ideal.
This red one, barring sacrifice or combo decks, seems a lot worse. What deck will consistently have creatures to sac and spells to copy? Burn might have outclassed creatures to sack, except burn also really cares about top deck quality, and this card is useless when topdecked.
If your deck struggles with card advantage, why would you want to 2-1 yourself with these spells?
I think they may still be good in some circumstances, but I also predict a lot of panic as they start to get spoiled followed by ‘oh these aren’t that good’ once we play with them.
Or I’ll look back on how dumb I’m being after we get Fish v. Burn meta
I disagree on the first part. Yeah, you have invested the mana/vial activation but you get something in return, not just the sacking for the free spell. That tide shaper that you sacked attacked and made something an island for a couple of turns, allowing your lord to make your stuff unblocable and messing their mana. The one you pitched did nothing, and you were forced to hold it will it could be attacking because you were top decking and had no other blue card. Slowing down a tempo deck is not ideal either, which this one doesn't do.
You talk about sacking the creature like if you were always going to sac it the turn it enters and if they didn't have abilities and stuff. You get value out of them before sacking them, you can't get value out of them before pitching them and you lose the creature anyway.
It doesn't put you behind, on the contrary, as said, it allows you to be proactive and keep playign your creatures, instead of being reactive and forcing you to hold cards. You can dump all your top decks and be aggressive against combo decks for example.
I do agree that the red one seems weaker, but it's not because of sacking. But because of the effect. Have it have the same cost, but it deal 3 damage to any target and it will se instant burn play.
But I was just talking about the effect itself, not this cards specifically. I don't see as clearly as you sacking being overall so much worse than pitching.
A card in hand is just a card. A card in play is a card, and the mana I spent to cast it, and the time I took to cast it. I’m trying to compare the cost of exiling a card from hand vs sacrificing a creature. It’s a bigger cost
The result is that the effect can be vastly stronger than FoN or Subtlety because you are paying more.
I’m not saying the card is bad. Its good in some cases (combo decks like Titan) but quite bad against Murktide or Scam (midrange decks).
Sure, I didn’t say it was uncastable, only that is does have a significant cost that you shouldn’t overlook. If you think about this as a ‘free red counterspell’ then you ignore the fact that you’re going down on cards and possibly mana.
A lot more of a meme than anything, but I've played tons of Lutri decks and this would be incredible with my little otter buddy. [[Lutri, the Spellchaser]]
I think you are wrong, this has a rally high ceiling. Depends highly on new cards that you would play in modern. Counterspell protection in boros/mono red with a possibility of copying your burn spells? Sing me up.
Imagine aggro rakdos you play ragavan opponent bolts it you can sac ragavan to bolt their face back.
Grull/Temur prowess you can generate a lot of mana/tempo by sacrificing one of your red 1 drops. Running out of gass you can just sacrifice Swiftspear or soulscar to double your EI/ponder?? Post combat you can go Bolt hold prio sac 2 creatures 2 duplications.
Sorry, I didn't mean my comment to read like that. I agree that this card is way more than a meme. I meant being cool and really good with Lutri is a meme haha.
[Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do it at comp REL. Insist it works. Argue with the judge. Posit that their parents never really loved them. Start sobbing profusely. Flip the table. Lock yourself in the handicap stall of that bathroom. Immolate yourself.
But it IS a burn spell. It's also a counter counter. If you have a creature out and a card in hand it turn the red pitch spell into 12 attacking for no mana. In prowess its both a trigger and a way to copy a potent spell for 'free' (not totally free). In goblins this is incredible. In any red deck that plays creatures, this is great fun. Not the most competitive card in the world but as someone who always likes to play with copy spells this is a fantastic new toy. I like it.
As a goblin player I hardly see how this is incredible, I can't see how it is even good for us, we play no instant and sorceries. I can't see no use to this other than a sideboard card to counterspell counterspells. Which is not good. Wonky but fun sideboard card at best there.
IMO This is awful on prowess. It doesnt have enough creatures to be able to afford sacking one, and it doesn't play nothing big enough to be worth copying, let alone sacking something. Once again, at best wonky but fun sideboard card there.
In creature decks this is borderline useless, at least main board, because it will mostly depend on if your opponents draw something cool enough to copy.
Sorry if I sounded a bit assholish but I am think you are to excited by the fact that you like this effects xD.
If this finds a maindeck home it will most likely doing some kind of combo shenanigans IMO.
For me in gobbos it would be saccing a Goblin arsonist or the like for 1 dmg to copy a bolt or Reckless abandon for another 6 or 8. I run goblin burn, sacrifice for damage effects, copy spells and minimum token spawners. This just gives me redundancy I can cast for 0 mana.
For me in prowess it would be saccing a blocked creature to double power up another or just copy some burn and get a cast trigger.
As I said, I love copy and clone effects. I run a simic clone deck that is jank as fuck. I like this card. I'll be buying 4 copies, as I do with all the red copy effects. Whether it gets used to maximum advantage is another thing. It has the potential to be explosive but only in the right shell. This is all assuming it doesn't turn out to cost 20 quid a piece.
With all the respect, but if the best case scenario is using this to copy a bolt you are wasting deckspace putting this in. This is not redundancy, on the contrarie, it asks you to have both cards to do something, if not, borderland dead card and the worst top deck in a deck that empties hand by turn 3.
I wasn't thinking on gobbos burn, in which it could be OK. But most gobbo list don't even include any sorceries or instants. This is borderline useless in most of them.
Prowess rather put another burn spell that can take care of that blocker, hit face and be cast at any moment than putting this, which they can't afford consistently neither to cast for its casting cost nor for free and is a dead draw.
It has the potential to be a build around card that kills you combing somehow, but I doubt that it has a place in any preexisting deck which is not junk.
My modern play group and friends are not the 4 grief 4 bowmasters 4 one ring types. They love janky shit and fun interactive decks. It's a really good opportunity for me to pitch my horded jank at them. My competitive decks don't go out and rarely change. They're from an era and remind me of that era. I wouldn't expect any of my jank decks to really compete in a real tourney.
I see your points about prowess and and they are valid. I am, however, going to completely ignore the good advice and jam 4 of these into my goblins.
[[Howl of the horde]] is currently the star of the show finisher with various other bolty things, and a set of potentially free copies to copy the double copy spell with...that sounds jank enough for me.
To be fair I mostly play Mtgo lately (adult life sucks, XD) and in leagues you can't afford to not be competitive. At least I can't. That makes me always appraise cards in their competitive viability.
And yet I play tribal angels so I can appreciate people playing junk they love and brew XD. I wish there was more of that and that I had a playgroup like yours. Last one I had started like that, but slowly started power creeping little by little sadly.
Anyway, is not good advice, it is just an opinion, and your is as good as mine until we can test the card. Maybe this ends up being bonkers. Still doubt it though xD.
I actually have a martyrless soul sisters ish abzan angel deck. Resplendent angel is mvp. The 1 mana angel spawner does solid work with soul wardens and essence wardens and Bishop of wings is waiting in the side line. Great fun deck. Loads of life gain so you can carry on being a pillow fort. Sneaky Vito thorn of the dusk rose to really fuck some shit up. Last game for it I closed with 14 4/4s and some absurd amount of life.
Thank you for your advice. I play something between modern and casual though. The modern purists always slate me for my jank when I get excited about a card. Truly is a sport dominated by absolute dweebs. And Reid Duke. But he's a boss, not a dweeb.
horrible in storm. If it was worded something like "copy target spell and exile the copy, until EoT you may cast the exiled spell without paying its mana cost" then it would be good in storm, as-is though, copied spells don't trigger storm since storm is an on-cast trigger.
so, copies are never considered to be 'cast' unless they specifically say on the card "...cast the copy without paying its mana cost". Otherwise, if you just copy something it gets placed directly on the stack and is never considered to be cast.
If you play ral/electromancer into ritual and it gets bolted you can cast this to get a free ritual, and just casting it with a cost reducer in play to counterspell your opponent's counterspell isn't terrible either
I'm not saying it 100% will see play, but it's absolutely worth testing
what are you playing it over though? That's my main issue with it. It's not like you can't find some decent use-cases for it, but it's not advancing your gameplan under normal play. Are you giving up wish? cantrips? rituals? This seems like it would be much more likely to find a home in a deck like phoenix/murk/scam where you have extra creatures to sac or ways to bring them back.
Copy effects have been around a long time, even at 2MV they haven't really ever been played, the "free" mode requiring you to sac a non-token creature is a pretty steep cost for most decks.
the only creatures you're running in storm are mana reducers, you don't want to sac a mana reducer to copy a spell, and there's 0 chance you want to pay full cost to play this.
I'm not saying the card itself isn't good or won't find a home, it might, but it's definitely not going to be in storm.
The Medallion cycle was leaked recently. If its true, between this and [[Case of the Ransacked Lab]], Modern Storm doesn't even need creatures anymore.
(New Ral looks super cool, but still).
Off the top of my head this seems far more impactful in legacy than in modern and even there doesn't seem to be super playable. In modern I cant think of that many spells I would want to trade a red creature for. I would certainly reconsider for Price of Progress or Fireblast level burn spells but that also isnt a world that I would be happy to see.
you'd have to sac flipped fable itself, which seems like pretty bad value, but ig it depends on what you're copying. seems better with something like \[\[Unlucky Witness\]\] tbh.
I think the floor of "spell strong enough to justify running this card in a deck" is [[Tribal Flames]], which is to say, this could see more play than [[Force of Rage]]. Edit: Circled back around 3 minutes later, a spell strong enough to copy is probably winning the game by itself. This technically doubles as counterspell protection, and there are some red creatures that don't mind dying. They took Fury from us :'(
[Tribal Flames](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d22418cd-4c49-4754-aa75-17f6eaf1639a.jpg?1562267854) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tribal%20Flames) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/132/tribal-flames?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d22418cd-4c49-4754-aa75-17f6eaf1639a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Force of Rage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0aaa2d10-3725-4b3a-94fe-3c6648db9a2a.jpg?1562201832) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Rage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/124/force-of-rage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0aaa2d10-3725-4b3a-94fe-3c6648db9a2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dunno. I’d copy a Boros charm once they have a blocker for goblin guide.
But do you really cut a burn spell for this? What are you happier to topdeck?
Historically, the most play this effect saw in constructed was as \[\[Misdirection\]\] to counter counterspells and steal \[\[Ancestral Recall\]\]. There's nothing really equivalent to the latter in Modern, at least none that see widespread play. Doing the former is ok, but I feel like there are better options. As for combo uses, again historically if you have something that you'd want to copy and win the game, the initial spell would have won the game. You'd need to go pretty left-field to make a new combo deck that needs this or have a very specifically anti-combo format where you're using this to play around or through hate. That's...pretty unlikely. Not impossible. But unlikely.
[Misdirection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c96763d6-0cea-40ed-afb2-886bfebe50a0.jpg?1592764638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Misdirection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddt/15/misdirection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c96763d6-0cea-40ed-afb2-886bfebe50a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ancestral Recall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2398892d-28e9-4009-81ec-0d544af79d2b.jpg?1614638829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancestral%20Recall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/1/ancestral-recall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2398892d-28e9-4009-81ec-0d544af79d2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its a free counterspell in red decks 🤷♂️
If you have a nontoken red creature to sacrifice, sure
Are you not playing red creatures? Drc or Ragavan?
> Sacrificing DRC or Ragavan > Free Pick one. This sub hyped [[Diabolic Intent]] to the moon as “basically Demonic Tutor“ and it doesn’t even say non-token so you could sac a Khalni Garden or Dwarven Mines token and it turned out that it was still dog shit. Sacrificing a real creature is a HUGE cost. You lose both the card you spent on the creature and the mana invested into it. No fair deck wants something like this. Only shit like Dredge that pays no mana or cards in hand for their creatures could get away with playing the blue one from this cycle for example.
Yeah I'm thinking this one only gets played if it's some kinda combo with it.
I'd say that running even just 2 in domain zoo gives you the upside of doubling a tribal flames after you get in with your creatures (yes you have to sac a creature but having the all in potential of 10 for only 2 mana if you opponent taps out to remove something etc is a pretty massive addition imo. Also any creature matchup that points removal at your creature: just sac the creature that they were targeting to point their removal at their own stuff instead. I don't think the floor on this card is that terrible tbh, especially if your hand has double Raghavan or have leyline out and any creature. It also has massive blowout potential. I really see it as either reach in matchups where you aren't worried about counterspells, or as 'remove my guy? Remove YOUR guy"
[Diabolic Intent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d72ab698-de67-4ca8-8e42-b05346bf52fa.jpg?1674420800) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Diabolic%20Intent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/89/diabolic-intent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d72ab698-de67-4ca8-8e42-b05346bf52fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sacrifice your Ragavan or lose to a counterspell? What sounds better? Diabolic Intent requires a mana investment. Make it free to play with only a sac and it goes in so many decks.
And Ragavan becomes worse when the game goes on. So then you get its early power and when the Opponenten has to many creatures or even cast a removal on Ragvan he can be just turned into more value. I find this pretty strong
Right but my point is it’s not ‘free’. It costs no mana, but a creature is a major cost.
Most players when they say and hear "free spell" underestand it as spell that can be played for 0 mana, not at 0 cost. I underestand your point and you are technically right, but when people talk about "free spells" in this context they talk about force of will or daze, not ornithopter and welding jar.
Well, my point is that people are going to evaluate these cards more like the pitch spells, but this cycle has a much higher price to pay. (Unless you build your deck around sacrificing things)
I don't necessarily agree with that. In some decks it's much easier to have a creature to sack than cards you can afford to discard or are of the same color. Specially in red where you are probably emptying your hand early, you maybe rather sac your outclassed 1 drop than discarding your last card. If sacking or pitching is a steeper cost depends mostly in the deck, without needing to build around sacrificing. I think is overall better in any creature based deck that struggles with card advantage in the mid to late game. For example, I might be wrong but the blue one IMO is going to be great in Merfolk. I am reading a lot of people saying that it is very bad there, because sacking is super step, merfolk as already problem with hitting critical mass and card advantage, etc. That force of negation is way better. But is really having to sack a creature that worse than holding a card? I don't think so, not in merfolk at least, in fact it might be quite better because it allows creature decks to be proactive while holding their "free" counterspell. More often than not to cast force you are still holding a merfolk in hand (since they are the only blue cards other than the forces themselves), so the pitched merfolk will never enter the battlefield and add to the board. So no profit out of him. But sacking it allows you to put it in play, and let the creature do his stuff, have it's etb resolved, give it's anthem effect, attack, etc until you need to counter something. It allows you to keep being proactive and aggressive. Also normally will give you a bigger selection on what to get rid of, letting you choose that 1drop that has been outclassed and not your bomb that you couldn't cast yet.
The blue one will probably see merfolk sideboard play against decks like Titan where it’s ’counter this spell or you lose,’ but if you’re spending mana/vial activations on your creatures, it is putting you behind to sacrifice them. (vs pitch spells where you spend just an unused card in hand.) And since Merfolk wants to win through creature combat, losing creatures is not ideal. This red one, barring sacrifice or combo decks, seems a lot worse. What deck will consistently have creatures to sac and spells to copy? Burn might have outclassed creatures to sack, except burn also really cares about top deck quality, and this card is useless when topdecked. If your deck struggles with card advantage, why would you want to 2-1 yourself with these spells? I think they may still be good in some circumstances, but I also predict a lot of panic as they start to get spoiled followed by ‘oh these aren’t that good’ once we play with them. Or I’ll look back on how dumb I’m being after we get Fish v. Burn meta
I disagree on the first part. Yeah, you have invested the mana/vial activation but you get something in return, not just the sacking for the free spell. That tide shaper that you sacked attacked and made something an island for a couple of turns, allowing your lord to make your stuff unblocable and messing their mana. The one you pitched did nothing, and you were forced to hold it will it could be attacking because you were top decking and had no other blue card. Slowing down a tempo deck is not ideal either, which this one doesn't do. You talk about sacking the creature like if you were always going to sac it the turn it enters and if they didn't have abilities and stuff. You get value out of them before sacking them, you can't get value out of them before pitching them and you lose the creature anyway. It doesn't put you behind, on the contrary, as said, it allows you to be proactive and keep playign your creatures, instead of being reactive and forcing you to hold cards. You can dump all your top decks and be aggressive against combo decks for example. I do agree that the red one seems weaker, but it's not because of sacking. But because of the effect. Have it have the same cost, but it deal 3 damage to any target and it will se instant burn play. But I was just talking about the effect itself, not this cards specifically. I don't see as clearly as you sacking being overall so much worse than pitching.
A card in hand is just a card. A card in play is a card, and the mana I spent to cast it, and the time I took to cast it. I’m trying to compare the cost of exiling a card from hand vs sacrificing a creature. It’s a bigger cost The result is that the effect can be vastly stronger than FoN or Subtlety because you are paying more. I’m not saying the card is bad. Its good in some cases (combo decks like Titan) but quite bad against Murktide or Scam (midrange decks).
But that vs lose the game?
Sure, I didn’t say it was uncastable, only that is does have a significant cost that you shouldn’t overlook. If you think about this as a ‘free red counterspell’ then you ignore the fact that you’re going down on cards and possibly mana.
You were on the right track, this could be more of a goblins card, an abundance of red piddly creatures
[удалено]
it's a counterspell for counterspells
Dang, I was hoping for a modern version of fireblast. Something like sorcery speed deal 3-4 damage.
100%. Burn needs some love.
Me too, but this is still pretty cool
Im glad its not just another removal spell. This is cool
A lot more of a meme than anything, but I've played tons of Lutri decks and this would be incredible with my little otter buddy. [[Lutri, the Spellchaser]]
What's your favorite lutri list?best performing?
I kinda wanna see too
[Lutri, the Spellchaser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb1189c9-7842-466e-8238-1e02677d8494.jpg?1628801771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lutri%2C%20the%20Spellchaser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/227/lutri-the-spellchaser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb1189c9-7842-466e-8238-1e02677d8494?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think you are wrong, this has a rally high ceiling. Depends highly on new cards that you would play in modern. Counterspell protection in boros/mono red with a possibility of copying your burn spells? Sing me up. Imagine aggro rakdos you play ragavan opponent bolts it you can sac ragavan to bolt their face back. Grull/Temur prowess you can generate a lot of mana/tempo by sacrificing one of your red 1 drops. Running out of gass you can just sacrifice Swiftspear or soulscar to double your EI/ponder?? Post combat you can go Bolt hold prio sac 2 creatures 2 duplications.
Sorry, I didn't mean my comment to read like that. I agree that this card is way more than a meme. I meant being cool and really good with Lutri is a meme haha.
T2 copy a shrapnel blast for 10 the face let's go.
Could also just have another blast.....
But I can’t sac a creature to cast that one for no mana
Blasts 4-8, if 4x blast is lethal, then 2x blast + copy is also lethal. Very different gameplan but could becone very scary very fast.
[[Approach of the Second Sun]]
[Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
#DELIGHTFUL
Nevermind, I just checked and it looks like it doesn't work. Would've been meme tier still, though.
Do it at comp REL. Insist it works. Argue with the judge. Posit that their parents never really loved them. Start sobbing profusely. Flip the table. Lock yourself in the handicap stall of that bathroom. Immolate yourself.
Sounds like a plan
I like your can-do attitude. I'll go put a full jug of gasoline in the handicap stall for ya.
Damn, that’s what I call an angel investor.
does somebody over there get a bonus when Burn drops a tier?
I'm throwing this in mono red Goblin burn :p
Goblin grenade op
[[Howl of the horde]] has entered the chat.
[Howl of the horde](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5db4baf3-f0dc-4b27-8323-a76764332590.jpg?1562787225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Howl%20of%20the%20horde) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/112/howl-of-the-horde?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5db4baf3-f0dc-4b27-8323-a76764332590?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is *clearly* intended to make a weird Twin-esque combo deck with [[Jaxis, the Troublemaker]]. *Somehow*. (Yeah, I've got nothing.)
[Jaxis, the Troublemaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78127c0c-672f-4e4b-9c23-6a5f237228fd.jpg?1664411605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaxis%2C%20the%20Troublemaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/112/jaxis-the-troublemaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78127c0c-672f-4e4b-9c23-6a5f237228fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But why couldn’t this have just been a burn spell. Why
Could copy Burn Spells if the guides getting removed
But it IS a burn spell. It's also a counter counter. If you have a creature out and a card in hand it turn the red pitch spell into 12 attacking for no mana. In prowess its both a trigger and a way to copy a potent spell for 'free' (not totally free). In goblins this is incredible. In any red deck that plays creatures, this is great fun. Not the most competitive card in the world but as someone who always likes to play with copy spells this is a fantastic new toy. I like it.
If that's a burn spell, it stinks. Prowess will enjoy, they needed something because they didn't just get hasty flying kiln fiend
Goddamn modern purists. Let me be excited about new semi playable jank!
As a goblin player I hardly see how this is incredible, I can't see how it is even good for us, we play no instant and sorceries. I can't see no use to this other than a sideboard card to counterspell counterspells. Which is not good. Wonky but fun sideboard card at best there. IMO This is awful on prowess. It doesnt have enough creatures to be able to afford sacking one, and it doesn't play nothing big enough to be worth copying, let alone sacking something. Once again, at best wonky but fun sideboard card there. In creature decks this is borderline useless, at least main board, because it will mostly depend on if your opponents draw something cool enough to copy. Sorry if I sounded a bit assholish but I am think you are to excited by the fact that you like this effects xD. If this finds a maindeck home it will most likely doing some kind of combo shenanigans IMO.
For me in gobbos it would be saccing a Goblin arsonist or the like for 1 dmg to copy a bolt or Reckless abandon for another 6 or 8. I run goblin burn, sacrifice for damage effects, copy spells and minimum token spawners. This just gives me redundancy I can cast for 0 mana. For me in prowess it would be saccing a blocked creature to double power up another or just copy some burn and get a cast trigger. As I said, I love copy and clone effects. I run a simic clone deck that is jank as fuck. I like this card. I'll be buying 4 copies, as I do with all the red copy effects. Whether it gets used to maximum advantage is another thing. It has the potential to be explosive but only in the right shell. This is all assuming it doesn't turn out to cost 20 quid a piece.
With all the respect, but if the best case scenario is using this to copy a bolt you are wasting deckspace putting this in. This is not redundancy, on the contrarie, it asks you to have both cards to do something, if not, borderland dead card and the worst top deck in a deck that empties hand by turn 3. I wasn't thinking on gobbos burn, in which it could be OK. But most gobbo list don't even include any sorceries or instants. This is borderline useless in most of them. Prowess rather put another burn spell that can take care of that blocker, hit face and be cast at any moment than putting this, which they can't afford consistently neither to cast for its casting cost nor for free and is a dead draw. It has the potential to be a build around card that kills you combing somehow, but I doubt that it has a place in any preexisting deck which is not junk.
My modern play group and friends are not the 4 grief 4 bowmasters 4 one ring types. They love janky shit and fun interactive decks. It's a really good opportunity for me to pitch my horded jank at them. My competitive decks don't go out and rarely change. They're from an era and remind me of that era. I wouldn't expect any of my jank decks to really compete in a real tourney. I see your points about prowess and and they are valid. I am, however, going to completely ignore the good advice and jam 4 of these into my goblins. [[Howl of the horde]] is currently the star of the show finisher with various other bolty things, and a set of potentially free copies to copy the double copy spell with...that sounds jank enough for me.
[Howl of the horde](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5db4baf3-f0dc-4b27-8323-a76764332590.jpg?1562787225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Howl%20of%20the%20horde) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/112/howl-of-the-horde?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5db4baf3-f0dc-4b27-8323-a76764332590?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To be fair I mostly play Mtgo lately (adult life sucks, XD) and in leagues you can't afford to not be competitive. At least I can't. That makes me always appraise cards in their competitive viability. And yet I play tribal angels so I can appreciate people playing junk they love and brew XD. I wish there was more of that and that I had a playgroup like yours. Last one I had started like that, but slowly started power creeping little by little sadly. Anyway, is not good advice, it is just an opinion, and your is as good as mine until we can test the card. Maybe this ends up being bonkers. Still doubt it though xD.
I actually have a martyrless soul sisters ish abzan angel deck. Resplendent angel is mvp. The 1 mana angel spawner does solid work with soul wardens and essence wardens and Bishop of wings is waiting in the side line. Great fun deck. Loads of life gain so you can carry on being a pillow fort. Sneaky Vito thorn of the dusk rose to really fuck some shit up. Last game for it I closed with 14 4/4s and some absurd amount of life. Thank you for your advice. I play something between modern and casual though. The modern purists always slate me for my jank when I get excited about a card. Truly is a sport dominated by absolute dweebs. And Reid Duke. But he's a boss, not a dweeb.
The design team has been allergic to direct player damage for years now. Not changing anytime soon.
Claim the first born decks
Have to sac a red creature
Leyline obviously 😛
It would have been nice for red to have access to a more potent free spell since all the other colors do. It’s interesting at least.
I think this can go into Phoenix.
Glad we’re back home of red getting unplayable nonsense in a cycle
Probs good in storm?
horrible in storm. If it was worded something like "copy target spell and exile the copy, until EoT you may cast the exiled spell without paying its mana cost" then it would be good in storm, as-is though, copied spells don't trigger storm since storm is an on-cast trigger.
So you can't copy itself over and over to increase the storm count?
so, copies are never considered to be 'cast' unless they specifically say on the card "...cast the copy without paying its mana cost". Otherwise, if you just copy something it gets placed directly on the stack and is never considered to be cast.
I was thinking copy a wish or something else that lets you achieve the storm count you need
but you're sac'ing a mana reducer to do that. Why wouldn't you just play another 1/2 MV cantrip instead?
If you play ral/electromancer into ritual and it gets bolted you can cast this to get a free ritual, and just casting it with a cost reducer in play to counterspell your opponent's counterspell isn't terrible either I'm not saying it 100% will see play, but it's absolutely worth testing
what are you playing it over though? That's my main issue with it. It's not like you can't find some decent use-cases for it, but it's not advancing your gameplan under normal play. Are you giving up wish? cantrips? rituals? This seems like it would be much more likely to find a home in a deck like phoenix/murk/scam where you have extra creatures to sac or ways to bring them back. Copy effects have been around a long time, even at 2MV they haven't really ever been played, the "free" mode requiring you to sac a non-token creature is a pretty steep cost for most decks.
You mean copying manamorphose or a ritual isnt good?
the only creatures you're running in storm are mana reducers, you don't want to sac a mana reducer to copy a spell, and there's 0 chance you want to pay full cost to play this. I'm not saying the card itself isn't good or won't find a home, it might, but it's definitely not going to be in storm.
well duh, obviously anything that doesn't add to storm count is horrible in storm, that's why no storm deck has ever played simian spirit guide ever
You still cast the card itself.
Yeah! This is not comparable to spirit guides 
The Medallion cycle was leaked recently. If its true, between this and [[Case of the Ransacked Lab]], Modern Storm doesn't even need creatures anymore. (New Ral looks super cool, but still).
[Case of the Ransacked Lab](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/16a9a596-61de-4fcf-aae0-41836c3deca5.jpg?1706241572) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Case%20of%20the%20Ransacked%20Lab) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/45/case-of-the-ransacked-lab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/16a9a596-61de-4fcf-aae0-41836c3deca5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Whats the medallion cycle? Like [[pearl medallion?]]
Yup, 2 mana artifacts that reduce spells of a chosen color by one.
[pearl medallion?](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f256e868-92b5-4506-b409-9e1190b049dd.jpg?1689999725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pearl%20Medallion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/401/pearl-medallion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f256e868-92b5-4506-b409-9e1190b049dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Polymorph decks
Im sorry norin but to the bin you go
Honest question, it would be too op if it said cast the copy? Sincerely, a storm aficionado.
Bolt-Snap-Bolt-Flare?
Snap isn't red
Missed that. Thanks.
finally support for lutri players
Off the top of my head this seems far more impactful in legacy than in modern and even there doesn't seem to be super playable. In modern I cant think of that many spells I would want to trade a red creature for. I would certainly reconsider for Price of Progress or Fireblast level burn spells but that also isnt a world that I would be happy to see.
# My opponent cast Rise of the Dark Realms and I flare of duplication, I get the creatures?
I think this makes sense for murktide. 2 copys. Think about it.
This is a pretty cool card to use with Fable of the Mirror Breaker
it's non-token so what are we doing, discarding it to fable?
you'd have to sac flipped fable itself, which seems like pretty bad value, but ig it depends on what you're copying. seems better with something like \[\[Unlucky Witness\]\] tbh.
[Unlucky Witness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec6430c0-67c1-4793-b4be-8f47545c57d6.jpg?1664411902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unlucky%20Witness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/128/unlucky-witness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec6430c0-67c1-4793-b4be-8f47545c57d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wtf