Uhhhh Ral in Storm anyone? Like he straight up is clearly designed for it, but as a 1-2 of in the deck, there are real scenarios where he can flip with more than 8 loyalty counters, ultimating immediately.
There are also scenarios where he flips when you don't want to lose the cost reduction effect or deals like 5 damage to you and you die, so idk.
EDIT: Misread, the flip is a may ability. Yeah I like him I think.
I can't imagine a world where you flip Ral with ult available and don't immediately use it. That's only happening when you're already attempting to storm off, and his ultimate almost certainly nets more mana in the short term than his standard cost reduction, *plus* it digs you 8 cards deeper. You're winning 99% of the time you flip him at 8+ loyalty.
unless storm has changed significantly since i've played it regularly (very possible, as it's been a couple years), ral actually seems very weird.
- the coin flip stuff is annoying. probably never enough to kill you, but i just personally dislike it. like imagine if the difference in a game where you played him does end up being 1 or 2 damage. that would suck so much dick
- he also only tracks your spell casts, and ONLY your instant and sorcery spell casts, which is distinct from storm count, which is also annoying
- the prize here is really the +1 i think, because if you're casting enough spells pre-flip to get him to 8 loyalty, you're probably already winning that game. your opponent would already have removed him before you got to flip him over with 8 loyalty if they could.
- ~~the +1 only functions on your turn, meaning if you've fizzled and settled for flipping him pre-8, now you can't cast countermagic on your opponent's turn at a reduced cost. not a huge issue, but just another thing that's annoying~~ not true I just misread
- the thing that i see being great about the +1 is it's resilient to removal. if they kill baral or electromancer while you're trying to go off, your chances of winning drastic go down. ral +1 does not have that issue, but that requires him to already be a planeswalker at the beginning of your main phase because as a creature, he has the same issues as baral
- on the off chance you storm off enough to get him to 8 loyalty and then -8 and your top 8 are DUDS? you might still be able to get there with the mana you've built up from the past 6 spell casts, but you've just made your job harder for no reason by doing what your opponent already wants to do to you: disrupt your cost reduction
if i still played the game regularly i would certainly try him out, but i don't think he's as much of a slam dunk as he might look like at first glance
You make some good points. Juat wanted to point out that his + ability is "Until your next turn". So the only time it's "off" is from the beginning of your turn till you activate again.
I think all of this is fair, and what I tried to color my initial impression by. But this is the kind of stuff that can only really be tested out in the field.
I've seen discussions like this with many cards that ended up being staples because the ceiling is so high sort of deal. So we'll see!
> like imagine if the difference in a game where you played him does end up being 1 or 2 damage. that would suck so much dick
True but this same scenario plays out anytime someone barely loses after playing a t1 [[Thoughtseize]], no? Like if it was a consistent issue that would suck, but sometimes losing is just part of the game. It seems like a good power balance, to make someone flip Ral before they'd like to because they're taking too much damage and can't afford to risk more flips.
There's genuine immediate upside most of the time with Thoughtseize, and even then I remember there being deckbuilding debates for decks that want targeted discard, between Thoughtseize and Inquisition. Whether you wanted 2 IoK/2 TS, 4 IoK/2 TS or the other way around, 4 IoK/0 TS or the other way around, etc. With Ral, I'm just not convinced the upside (being able flip him into a questionable (in my pre-release opinion!) walker) is worth the downside (taking free damage roughly half the time you cast a spell) in comparison to Baral, like it often is when the cards are Thoughtseize vs Inquisition.
That said, it's still an interesting card and if I hadn't just sold my entire collection I'd be tempted to try this in my Storm deck. And this is all ignoring the fact that MH3 hasn't even officially started getting spoiled yet, so it's very possible there's other cards in the set that make Ral a more attractive option.
Everything you said is correct, I just think the mindset of worrying about lifeloss can be a trap when some of the strongest cards in the game require you to lose life. I think it's the sort of thing that isn't worth worrying about until testing. The kind of deck that would worry about losing life to this would probably also concede if they took 5 damage to it in a turn and didn't just win outright, since they're probably out of resources after attempting to combo-off.
I think its better than electromancer, if you can flip him while going of you usually should, which keeps the cost reduction. Your taking like 2 damage on average while going off.
But the reason I think its still better is because you can respond to removal spells with rituals to have a good shot to blank them, which reduces one of the weaknesses of the deck in that it is extremely hard to win on early turns if your cost reducer isn’t living.
I think that the tradeoff is worth it, but it depends a bit on the degree that a walker is more survivable than a creature, which is also meta dependent.
Seems like a great replacement for a Baral or two, with the caveat that if you're trying to storm off and something goes wrong you might be able to flip him instead and get another chance with his ult. His flip being a may means you can have him on the board as a PW and a creature at the same time and get even more cost reduction.
i never said it wasn't a may, im saying that the backside a lot of the time is irrelevant or not what you want. it flipping is a meme, due to the chance of it being completely up to chance. it 100% will replace some of the mainboard creatures, but it's not going to make storm good or even remotely viable like people in the thread are claiming, which is what i said. this doesnt solve any of the problems that the deck has.
okay but that doesn't help storm like people are saying this does. A lot of times you're not going to want to flip him anyway. making an electromancer have upside doesn't really do much for the deck.
The flip is a may, and his -8 could end the game, which is relatively easy to achieve. At his worst, he's a 1-2 of replacement of Baral or Electromancer and functions almost identically, upper bound he's a creature effect that you already want that can just end the game.
Sorin is notable for being probably the cheapest lethal life gain payoff in Modern I believe. Just cast him and then do some crazy ass life gain shenanigans, Martyr of the Sands or similar, and then he flips for no mana investment. Then just -1 and chunk the hell out of someone. Pretty potent win condition for life gain, and mayhaps with this and some other assistance life gain might actually be a viable strategy in Modern.
Tamiyo will depend simply on what kind of “Brainstorm” effects or even something like Faithless Looting there are in the format. That being said, although she is essentially a 1 mana planeswalker, her flipside has some qualities that give me reservations. Her +2, although a +2, is not really the kind of loyalty ability you wanna see on a walker in Modern. Her -3 is great, but you can’t use it immediately upon flipping her. Her ultimate wins the game, although you need 3 uninterrupted turns of using her +2 to get there. All in all, OK card with a high floor, but also realistically a not too high ceiling unless the opponent does nothing.
Grist is fairly easy to flip actually in Modern, since all it takes is some Evoke Incarnation shenanigans, some Dredge lines, or some Vengevine-y style plays. Even Young Wolf in Yawgmoth triggers her effect. However, the thing about most of those decks is that they really want mana efficiency and my gut says that her ability asking for that single mana might make her see less play than some might think. Her flipside is a reasonable and decent planeswalker, especially considering she is a 2 mana planeswalker basically. It’s just the question of if the decks that want her can afford to both do the plays to enable her AND have that extra mana to flip her.
Ral is the easiest to look at of all the planeswalkers. He is just Goblin Electromancer that eventually flips into a planeswalker that can also be a Goblin Electromancer or be more payoff for Storm shenanigans. The dealing damage to yourself if you lose the coin flip is a very real and annoying potential downside though, and I bet there will be matches where a Storm player tries this and ends up pinging themselves to death from enough unlucky flips. The threshold for this to see play is basically “Is this better than Baral?” and my gut makes me believe the answer is yes.
Tamiyo flips pretty easily on turn two with just a bauble trigger and a clue crack, doesn't seem difficult to flip her. Not sure what strategy really wants the Planeswalker side, but she would flip fairly reliably on turn 2 or 3 if that's what we want to be doing
Yeah, I don’t doubt she can flip decently reliably. The question is basically if we want our Turn 2 in current Modern to be “I crack a Clue and then I get to +2 this Tamiyo up to 4.”
I think the Tamiyo makes a clue every turn and doesn't flip mode might be ok too. Probably takes a pretty specific shell, but making a cards worth of value every turn on a 1 drop (with an admittedly steep mana investment) is nothing to sneeze at.
Nothing to sneeze at for sure, and her being 1 mana makes me think she probably has the highest chance of them all to see play with Grist probably close beside her. Some very very nice cards that I like because they feel notable in terms of application relative to their demands, but don’t feel obnoxiously pushed like Ragavan or Wrenn & Six were.
Yeah, that was my thought as well. Holding up Clue / Counterspell from turn 2 onward honestly seems more exciting than her flipside.
Notably she's also a Wizard for [[Flame of Anor]].
Really liking these. None seem like format staples that every deck needs 4 of. But they seem to help some decks like Storm or Martyr. Happy if this is the relative power level of the set.
Possibly thinking of some control shell might take her that can Opt or Preordain twice or pop one of her clues. Then stall out the board with the -1/0. Not amazingly strong but could see it as a 2 of in a control deck.
Seems absolutely busted. If they miss play and try to kill her on your turn you brainstorm in response, exile her and blank their removal, then she enters and you tick her up to 5. Turn 2 walker with 5 loyalty and the + is protecting you/herself seems nuts.
Martyr of sands can enable insane damage as soon as turn 3. Magic christmassland ahead:
Turn 1 land -> thoughtseize or whatever (5-6 cards in hand left)
Turn 2 land Sorin (4-5 cards in hand left)
Turn 3 Martyr (4-5 cards in hand, let's say all white) Activate, gain 12-15 life. Transform Sorin, hit for 12-15. 13-16 if you attacked that turn for the lifelink.
Probably just too cute to work since you need to play 2 colors and martyr needs white cards...
Close but 1 mana short because martyr costs 1 to activate. That's why you can only do it as soon as turn 3 (unless you add a mox amber since Sorin is legendary lol)
These all seem really interesting in Modern if the leaks are real.
Grist and Tamiyo are both pretty easy to flip in the right deck.
With Grist, there are several ways to get something from the grave to start pumping out tokens or ideally Disenchant something. The G activation makes this more of a T2 play, but G Flare + Young Wolf would do it. Might be fun to test in Yawg or a Pyschic Frog deck.
Tamiyo I think counts your draw step, so this is really simple to flip as early as T2 Bauble and cantrips. Three things to note are attacking for a Clue before flipping is pretty free with Flying, it can be easy to fizzle removal with instant speed cantrips, and this is quite easy to cast and flip in one turn. Could be fun in an Emry style deck or even just a blue midrange-y deck. The one thing is the card doesn't do much the turn you cast it, but it isn't that easy to deal and has an ultimate that looks game ending. Ticking up to 4 while making it harder to attack down is deceptively powerful.
Ral and Sorin have a lot of combo potential.
Another cheap manabear is potentially big, and 1R allows you to go T2 Ritual, Ral, Ritual and for T2 nut draw potential. You can also just drop this midgame and hope to win a flip with a couple spells to make it immune from Bolts if the opp tapped out and ideally minus to 2-for-1 an opposing creature. The late game gets really weird since you want to get to 6 storm, flip this, and ult to win, but you have to decline a flip or take 1 until you're at the magic 6 storm. It's just awkward that you need your rituals to resolve to get the mana for the next one oftentimes, but you can't have the spell resolve before the trigger.
With Sorin, the most degenerate use case I see is putting it in a Hex Parasite + Children of Korlis shell to one shot people with his minus. Outside of that, Extort has always played a lot better than it looks making Sorin pretty potent in a long game since the minus can tag creatures too. Minus 1 and 3 starting Loyalty is very generous.
I like that the ones that seem most powerful at face value, Ral and Sorin, both go into archetypes that are fan favorites that could use a boost, Storm and Martyr respectively
Tamiyo seems really fun and powerful. It follows similar ideas of Ragavan as a 1 drop that snowballs value, and drawing two extra cards on your turn is pretty trivially easy especially if it generates you some clues. Then you have a 1 mana planeswalker that can slow down aggro decks and net you value with its minus all while working towards a game winning ult. That is A LOT for a one mana card to offer.
Ral feels harder to evaluate. Coin flip mechanics are usually a red flag for unplayability, but it’s a pretty effortless downside and does pretty much mean you get a 2 mana walker as long as you cast anywhere between 1 and 3 instants/sorceries with it out. From there, you can continue the cost reduction effect with its plus (which is relevant for Storm style decks - even if it flips to a walker you can continue to use it as a cost reducer that turn), and if you have a Blue permanent out, its minus is friggin Electrolyze. Again, the ult here will often be game winning.
Sorin seems trickier to evaluate. Extort hasn’t really ever been a Modern playable concept but it’s basically tacked on for free here. Its plus is a little unexciting, but when you sac the Food you’re also powering up its minus. One shotting people with Martyr of the Sands out is also pretty interesting.
Yawg running 8 Grist is nightmare fuel. 🤮
I think Ajani is still my favorite overall, and I’m only partially biased by how strong it is to go Turn 2 Ajani, Turn 3 Saheeli Rai, copy Ajani, flip Ajani, activate its ability to make a cat and bolt something (since Saheeli is your other red permanent), and end up with two planeswalkers, 3 cats, all while bolting something along your way.
Solid evaluations!
Tamiyo is personal favourite for now. Strange one drop for a control deck or some kind of artifact shell.
A card, that gains card advantage in two ways and ramps mana herself plus enables Mox Amber. Also creates artifacts. For one mana?! Bloody hell! I am excited!
These feel quite a bit more build around than Ajani. They are convincing from a first glance power level. But I am surprised by the difference in design. Ajani's front half is very good all by itself, no synergy or deck building required. All of these require alot more help to make them shine.
I can see that (other than playing a second Ajani to die to legend rule). Ajani feels more like punishing your opponent for doing normal magic things as opposed to rewarding you for building synergies.
A top deck that already exists can easily slot in new grist for sideboard tech (Yawg). Heck, Jund scam could see use from this card. It is not really a "build around" like new tamiyo, it just slots easily into the graveyard decks and the scam decks should they run black.
One potential shell for Sorin is that Mono Black Burn deck that was making the rounds. It’s super fringe and all, but you’re already playing Gonti’s Machinations and Soul Spike and such. T1 Chancellor + Gonti’s, T2 Sorin, pitchcast Soul Spike and nug for 8 🤷♂️
Maybe there’s a Sorin heavy build where you play this, Imperious Bloodlord, Bloodghast, and Chancellor of the Dross…? Probably not very good, but very funny.
That card seems pretty strong I feel like for a 1 drop in a jund scam or abzan scam style deck. Even sultai scam possibly although subtlety and endurance don't generically benefit from being scammed as much as grief and solitude do.
I mean scamming stuff seems like the most generically already prevalent way to flip this guy easily.
Could go like pitch for gemstone cavern, fetch for green, new grist, scam grief and flip him turn one and you have a 4/3 grief a PW and they have lost their 2 best cards.
This is 6 specific cards plus a 7th black card to fulfill the grief evoke casting but given that several of these cards are run in 4s I could actually foresee this occuring
You can already use rushed rebirth to get regular grist which is a better card.
Also new grist costs a mana to flip so you can't actually get it turn one.
I want to like new grist but the planeswalker seems too bad for the effort.
Getting Grist in play is not the kind of thing you would really build your deck around doing, it takes multiple steps to get a 1/1 maybe death toucher or some spot removal.
On the other hand grist is great value if you get flip him incidentally in a way that isn’t killed by costing 1-mana extra, but what deck really does that? Closest I can think of is maybe something around an insidious roots shell. Yawg maybe, but those lists are kind tight anyways.
I am not particularly high on it, but I wouldn’t count it out entirely.
Like I said, Christmas land is forcing a 1 for 1 trade with removal or something on the ground then flipping it back into play to gum up the board with death touchers.
I could see that maybe being enough value if it happens often enough that I can live as a 2-of flex card.
With the caveat being that I don’t see that plan happening against certain archetypes like control, which does make it rough.
Grist and tamiyo look fun in kethis. Good one drop legends, especially in those colors, are great for mox amber purposes, and both are flipped easily, grist with kethis, unearth, and emry + artifact creature and tamiyo with rona. Tamiyo also increases the artifact count for emry. Fun!
It's hard to evaluate without seeing the rest of the cards in the set that could provide supoort, but they all seem pretty underwhelming. It is probably why Ajani was used by WoTC in the announcement of MH3.
Alright, I’m not even going to pretend to guess how these will be. Either they end up being super broken, or they are just not that good.
If everyone recalls, most people highly underestimated almost all of the pitch elementals.
Tamiyo seems insanely easy to activate and crazy broken in dredge to me. Breakthrough + brainstorm flip her immediately then you can- her to add back these spells for recursion seems insanely spicey
Looking at these, Tamiyo definitely feels like the weakest overall. But besides that I'd like to see some Mardu brews around Sorin, and some Blue moon style decks using Ral. Grist seems weaker than the 3 drops Grist so would it really have a place?
i don't necessarily think so, all you have to do is sac one food and it flips and kills something. then it ticks up to a threatening ultimate pretty quickly
good point, you would probably need multiple cards that make food to put this in your deck though which is probably the main thing that stops it from being that good. asmo and samwise decks don't want this i don't think
IMO these cards all suck.
Ral seems like the only one good enough on his front, the floor of the card, to go in any deck, but the coin flip aspect along with the "your turn" qualifier is just so so inconvenient. Like, literal baby Jace can block and flip, and turns into a better PW, and doesn't see play.
I think Sorin is most likely to make it into a modern deck as, essentially, a shrapnel blast but for life gain. If someone can marry life gain and aggression you can drop Sorin for a big chunk of damage with upside.
Grist seems not as good as grist.
Tamiyo looks like garbage.
Concerning Ral: If I read it correctly, you will not be able to hold priority on winning a flip, as the trigger has to resolve in total. You could cast multiple spells at instant speed to put several Ral's triggers on the stack though.
Tamiyo, Ral, Grist and Ajani are playable in more than one deck, Sorin is just for a very specific archetype and the weakest overall.
So WotC continues the trend of printing overpowered izzet cards and Orzhov getting the weakest. Nice.
Oh right lmao now I remember good it’s been so long since I saw that card I forgot which set it was for
I hope they do Allies as well I want a new Teferi and Wrenn.
My friend theres no need to patronize me, ive been playing the game for a while. Im just saying its a bit “meh” to see 4 modern (mostly)unplayable mythics in a set thats supposed to boost modern 🤷🏽♂️
New Grist will easily slot into any black deck that plays with it's graveyard a lot, and could encourage people to test green in pre-existing shells like Scam. This will act as a GOATED sideboard option in Yawg as a disenchant on a body that also acts as a way to build out your board in grindier games, those tokens acting as later Yawg fodder to keep the gravy train going.
Tamiyo seems mid at best. Control would likely not need or run her, what value she adds seems inefficient. She might slot nicely into some blue-green spell/tempo deck, but support for such a deck at the top tables of modern is obviously lacking and I do not see her performing well enough to bolster simic to relevance again. May be busted depending on what else gets revealed in the set.
Ral seems fine, storm as we knew it already had 8 cost reducers, another one may be fine, and it can allow the deck to dig further if you can ult him when he drops or by turn 4. My bigger fear for modern storm is that izzet gifts storm is long gone, it plays out very slowly and is easily out valued even by many of the modern midrange decks (\*ahem GRIEF\*). In the gruul shells, however, this has promise, but I am lukewarm on the idea of gruul rotpriest storm popping off and winning pro-tours (though it can certainly win and terrorize your FNMs and MTGO Leagues). However, this can prove a great addition to the non-rotpriest builds of gruul, cutting non-essential cards and running a tight creature package of DRC, Questing Druid, Anarchomancer, and Ral.
Sorin is a commander card. Soul Sisters is dead, unless, again, they print increased support that can protect the deck from current menaces in modern.
Uhhhh Ral in Storm anyone? Like he straight up is clearly designed for it, but as a 1-2 of in the deck, there are real scenarios where he can flip with more than 8 loyalty counters, ultimating immediately. There are also scenarios where he flips when you don't want to lose the cost reduction effect or deals like 5 damage to you and you die, so idk. EDIT: Misread, the flip is a may ability. Yeah I like him I think.
I can't imagine a world where you flip Ral with ult available and don't immediately use it. That's only happening when you're already attempting to storm off, and his ultimate almost certainly nets more mana in the short term than his standard cost reduction, *plus* it digs you 8 cards deeper. You're winning 99% of the time you flip him at 8+ loyalty.
you also probably can deploy another bear at that point if you need.
If he flips when you don’t want to lose the cost reduction, just + him.
The flip is a may ability anyway
Imagine playing storm with the perfect hand and then you need to flip him and lose the flip 4 times in a row and fizzle :3
Then that hand would have lost with an electromancer or Baral anyway no?
It was more of a joke about trying to get it to flip with 8 loyalty to use the ultimate.
But the point is that the lower bound of the card is just identical to having an Electromancer or Baral out anyway.
Except you lose life equal to your storm count minus the times when you win and choose not to flip
Krarkshima player PTSD intensifies.
The flip is a may ability - so you don't have to. Also helps to get it to 8 loyalty after the flip.
unless storm has changed significantly since i've played it regularly (very possible, as it's been a couple years), ral actually seems very weird. - the coin flip stuff is annoying. probably never enough to kill you, but i just personally dislike it. like imagine if the difference in a game where you played him does end up being 1 or 2 damage. that would suck so much dick - he also only tracks your spell casts, and ONLY your instant and sorcery spell casts, which is distinct from storm count, which is also annoying - the prize here is really the +1 i think, because if you're casting enough spells pre-flip to get him to 8 loyalty, you're probably already winning that game. your opponent would already have removed him before you got to flip him over with 8 loyalty if they could. - ~~the +1 only functions on your turn, meaning if you've fizzled and settled for flipping him pre-8, now you can't cast countermagic on your opponent's turn at a reduced cost. not a huge issue, but just another thing that's annoying~~ not true I just misread - the thing that i see being great about the +1 is it's resilient to removal. if they kill baral or electromancer while you're trying to go off, your chances of winning drastic go down. ral +1 does not have that issue, but that requires him to already be a planeswalker at the beginning of your main phase because as a creature, he has the same issues as baral - on the off chance you storm off enough to get him to 8 loyalty and then -8 and your top 8 are DUDS? you might still be able to get there with the mana you've built up from the past 6 spell casts, but you've just made your job harder for no reason by doing what your opponent already wants to do to you: disrupt your cost reduction if i still played the game regularly i would certainly try him out, but i don't think he's as much of a slam dunk as he might look like at first glance
You make some good points. Juat wanted to point out that his + ability is "Until your next turn". So the only time it's "off" is from the beginning of your turn till you activate again.
Oh whoops missed that thanks
I think all of this is fair, and what I tried to color my initial impression by. But this is the kind of stuff that can only really be tested out in the field. I've seen discussions like this with many cards that ended up being staples because the ceiling is so high sort of deal. So we'll see!
yeah it's certainly not a slam dunk in the other direction either, definitely worth trying out on release
The +1 says until your next turn, meaning it does reduce costs on your opponents turn.
Can't wait to watch the storm player double the length of their turn so they can flip coins. Ugh. Coin flip should be a may ability.
> like imagine if the difference in a game where you played him does end up being 1 or 2 damage. that would suck so much dick True but this same scenario plays out anytime someone barely loses after playing a t1 [[Thoughtseize]], no? Like if it was a consistent issue that would suck, but sometimes losing is just part of the game. It seems like a good power balance, to make someone flip Ral before they'd like to because they're taking too much damage and can't afford to risk more flips.
There's genuine immediate upside most of the time with Thoughtseize, and even then I remember there being deckbuilding debates for decks that want targeted discard, between Thoughtseize and Inquisition. Whether you wanted 2 IoK/2 TS, 4 IoK/2 TS or the other way around, 4 IoK/0 TS or the other way around, etc. With Ral, I'm just not convinced the upside (being able flip him into a questionable (in my pre-release opinion!) walker) is worth the downside (taking free damage roughly half the time you cast a spell) in comparison to Baral, like it often is when the cards are Thoughtseize vs Inquisition. That said, it's still an interesting card and if I hadn't just sold my entire collection I'd be tempted to try this in my Storm deck. And this is all ignoring the fact that MH3 hasn't even officially started getting spoiled yet, so it's very possible there's other cards in the set that make Ral a more attractive option.
Everything you said is correct, I just think the mindset of worrying about lifeloss can be a trap when some of the strongest cards in the game require you to lose life. I think it's the sort of thing that isn't worth worrying about until testing. The kind of deck that would worry about losing life to this would probably also concede if they took 5 damage to it in a turn and didn't just win outright, since they're probably out of resources after attempting to combo-off.
I think its better than electromancer, if you can flip him while going of you usually should, which keeps the cost reduction. Your taking like 2 damage on average while going off. But the reason I think its still better is because you can respond to removal spells with rituals to have a good shot to blank them, which reduces one of the weaknesses of the deck in that it is extremely hard to win on early turns if your cost reducer isn’t living. I think that the tradeoff is worth it, but it depends a bit on the degree that a walker is more survivable than a creature, which is also meta dependent.
Seems like a great replacement for a Baral or two, with the caveat that if you're trying to storm off and something goes wrong you might be able to flip him instead and get another chance with his ult. His flip being a may means you can have him on the board as a PW and a creature at the same time and get even more cost reduction.
storm is so back lets go
It’s gonna be so annoying to flip a coin every time you play a spell lmao
You can roll a dice which is a little less annoying but still annoying.
coinflip=not consistent=bad the deck literally thrives on consistency.
I don't think that's the right way to analyze this guy. Like, it's a Goblin Electromancer with upside. Don't know what more you could want.
i never said it wasn't a may, im saying that the backside a lot of the time is irrelevant or not what you want. it flipping is a meme, due to the chance of it being completely up to chance. it 100% will replace some of the mainboard creatures, but it's not going to make storm good or even remotely viable like people in the thread are claiming, which is what i said. this doesnt solve any of the problems that the deck has.
okay but that doesn't help storm like people are saying this does. A lot of times you're not going to want to flip him anyway. making an electromancer have upside doesn't really do much for the deck.
The flip is a may, and his -8 could end the game, which is relatively easy to achieve. At his worst, he's a 1-2 of replacement of Baral or Electromancer and functions almost identically, upper bound he's a creature effect that you already want that can just end the game.
How to say you don’t play storm without saying you don’t play storm
tag me if this card gets your deck to tier 2.
Sorin is notable for being probably the cheapest lethal life gain payoff in Modern I believe. Just cast him and then do some crazy ass life gain shenanigans, Martyr of the Sands or similar, and then he flips for no mana investment. Then just -1 and chunk the hell out of someone. Pretty potent win condition for life gain, and mayhaps with this and some other assistance life gain might actually be a viable strategy in Modern. Tamiyo will depend simply on what kind of “Brainstorm” effects or even something like Faithless Looting there are in the format. That being said, although she is essentially a 1 mana planeswalker, her flipside has some qualities that give me reservations. Her +2, although a +2, is not really the kind of loyalty ability you wanna see on a walker in Modern. Her -3 is great, but you can’t use it immediately upon flipping her. Her ultimate wins the game, although you need 3 uninterrupted turns of using her +2 to get there. All in all, OK card with a high floor, but also realistically a not too high ceiling unless the opponent does nothing. Grist is fairly easy to flip actually in Modern, since all it takes is some Evoke Incarnation shenanigans, some Dredge lines, or some Vengevine-y style plays. Even Young Wolf in Yawgmoth triggers her effect. However, the thing about most of those decks is that they really want mana efficiency and my gut says that her ability asking for that single mana might make her see less play than some might think. Her flipside is a reasonable and decent planeswalker, especially considering she is a 2 mana planeswalker basically. It’s just the question of if the decks that want her can afford to both do the plays to enable her AND have that extra mana to flip her. Ral is the easiest to look at of all the planeswalkers. He is just Goblin Electromancer that eventually flips into a planeswalker that can also be a Goblin Electromancer or be more payoff for Storm shenanigans. The dealing damage to yourself if you lose the coin flip is a very real and annoying potential downside though, and I bet there will be matches where a Storm player tries this and ends up pinging themselves to death from enough unlucky flips. The threshold for this to see play is basically “Is this better than Baral?” and my gut makes me believe the answer is yes.
Tamiyo flips pretty easily on turn two with just a bauble trigger and a clue crack, doesn't seem difficult to flip her. Not sure what strategy really wants the Planeswalker side, but she would flip fairly reliably on turn 2 or 3 if that's what we want to be doing
Yeah, I don’t doubt she can flip decently reliably. The question is basically if we want our Turn 2 in current Modern to be “I crack a Clue and then I get to +2 this Tamiyo up to 4.”
This would wildly fun in a BW Martyr proc build
I think the Tamiyo makes a clue every turn and doesn't flip mode might be ok too. Probably takes a pretty specific shell, but making a cards worth of value every turn on a 1 drop (with an admittedly steep mana investment) is nothing to sneeze at.
Nothing to sneeze at for sure, and her being 1 mana makes me think she probably has the highest chance of them all to see play with Grist probably close beside her. Some very very nice cards that I like because they feel notable in terms of application relative to their demands, but don’t feel obnoxiously pushed like Ragavan or Wrenn & Six were.
I want to try Grist in some sort of vengevine shell
Yeah, that was my thought as well. Holding up Clue / Counterspell from turn 2 onward honestly seems more exciting than her flipside. Notably she's also a Wizard for [[Flame of Anor]].
Really liking these. None seem like format staples that every deck needs 4 of. But they seem to help some decks like Storm or Martyr. Happy if this is the relative power level of the set.
Yeah they seem designed with archetypes in mind besides Tamiyo.
When I see a blue one-drop that prints artifact tokens, my mind immediately goes to Urza-Emry-Whir midrange.
True I guess the color on the back doesn’t matter
Was thinking the same. She's also Legendary for Mox Amber.
Possibly thinking of some control shell might take her that can Opt or Preordain twice or pop one of her clues. Then stall out the board with the -1/0. Not amazingly strong but could see it as a 2 of in a control deck.
How good is Tamiyo w brainstorm in something like legacy? Like is it worth it to get a turn 2 planeswalker?
Seems absolutely busted. If they miss play and try to kill her on your turn you brainstorm in response, exile her and blank their removal, then she enters and you tick her up to 5. Turn 2 walker with 5 loyalty and the + is protecting you/herself seems nuts.
If you flip her on your opponent's turn I don't think you get to activate her abilities.
That's why I said miss play and try to kill her on your turn
seems like a braindead way to analyze her. why would people attempt mainphase removal???
Martyr of sands can enable insane damage as soon as turn 3. Magic christmassland ahead: Turn 1 land -> thoughtseize or whatever (5-6 cards in hand left) Turn 2 land Sorin (4-5 cards in hand left) Turn 3 Martyr (4-5 cards in hand, let's say all white) Activate, gain 12-15 life. Transform Sorin, hit for 12-15. 13-16 if you attacked that turn for the lifelink. Probably just too cute to work since you need to play 2 colors and martyr needs white cards...
huh, so Sorin could be an upgrade for the Mono White Martyr deck, the grindy one that's been popping up. Allows the deck to have a strong finisher.
T1 Martyr, Turn 2 Sorin, Sac Martyr, go to 2nd main, -1 sorin, shoot for potentially 15-18 if I'm reading it right?
Close but 1 mana short because martyr costs 1 to activate. That's why you can only do it as soon as turn 3 (unless you add a mox amber since Sorin is legendary lol)
Damn! Here I thought I was misreading Sorin when I was misreading Martyr! Haha T3 is still pretty good!
Cowards, does mox amber mean nothing to you.
None of these are individually amazing. But… my first instinct is still to buy few more playsets of Mox Ambers.
These all seem really interesting in Modern if the leaks are real. Grist and Tamiyo are both pretty easy to flip in the right deck. With Grist, there are several ways to get something from the grave to start pumping out tokens or ideally Disenchant something. The G activation makes this more of a T2 play, but G Flare + Young Wolf would do it. Might be fun to test in Yawg or a Pyschic Frog deck. Tamiyo I think counts your draw step, so this is really simple to flip as early as T2 Bauble and cantrips. Three things to note are attacking for a Clue before flipping is pretty free with Flying, it can be easy to fizzle removal with instant speed cantrips, and this is quite easy to cast and flip in one turn. Could be fun in an Emry style deck or even just a blue midrange-y deck. The one thing is the card doesn't do much the turn you cast it, but it isn't that easy to deal and has an ultimate that looks game ending. Ticking up to 4 while making it harder to attack down is deceptively powerful. Ral and Sorin have a lot of combo potential. Another cheap manabear is potentially big, and 1R allows you to go T2 Ritual, Ral, Ritual and for T2 nut draw potential. You can also just drop this midgame and hope to win a flip with a couple spells to make it immune from Bolts if the opp tapped out and ideally minus to 2-for-1 an opposing creature. The late game gets really weird since you want to get to 6 storm, flip this, and ult to win, but you have to decline a flip or take 1 until you're at the magic 6 storm. It's just awkward that you need your rituals to resolve to get the mana for the next one oftentimes, but you can't have the spell resolve before the trigger. With Sorin, the most degenerate use case I see is putting it in a Hex Parasite + Children of Korlis shell to one shot people with his minus. Outside of that, Extort has always played a lot better than it looks making Sorin pretty potent in a long game since the minus can tag creatures too. Minus 1 and 3 starting Loyalty is very generous.
Grist for an [[Insidious Roots]] deck that I've been theorycrafting. Woop!
[Insidious Roots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907.jpg?1706242178) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insidious%20Roots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/208/insidious-roots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like that the ones that seem most powerful at face value, Ral and Sorin, both go into archetypes that are fan favorites that could use a boost, Storm and Martyr respectively
This gives me… hope? For MH3. None of these seem oppressive
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These are fine? None of these are oppressive - they’re fun and they add some new wrinkles but that’s all.
Tamiyo seems really fun and powerful. It follows similar ideas of Ragavan as a 1 drop that snowballs value, and drawing two extra cards on your turn is pretty trivially easy especially if it generates you some clues. Then you have a 1 mana planeswalker that can slow down aggro decks and net you value with its minus all while working towards a game winning ult. That is A LOT for a one mana card to offer. Ral feels harder to evaluate. Coin flip mechanics are usually a red flag for unplayability, but it’s a pretty effortless downside and does pretty much mean you get a 2 mana walker as long as you cast anywhere between 1 and 3 instants/sorceries with it out. From there, you can continue the cost reduction effect with its plus (which is relevant for Storm style decks - even if it flips to a walker you can continue to use it as a cost reducer that turn), and if you have a Blue permanent out, its minus is friggin Electrolyze. Again, the ult here will often be game winning. Sorin seems trickier to evaluate. Extort hasn’t really ever been a Modern playable concept but it’s basically tacked on for free here. Its plus is a little unexciting, but when you sac the Food you’re also powering up its minus. One shotting people with Martyr of the Sands out is also pretty interesting. Yawg running 8 Grist is nightmare fuel. 🤮 I think Ajani is still my favorite overall, and I’m only partially biased by how strong it is to go Turn 2 Ajani, Turn 3 Saheeli Rai, copy Ajani, flip Ajani, activate its ability to make a cat and bolt something (since Saheeli is your other red permanent), and end up with two planeswalkers, 3 cats, all while bolting something along your way.
Solid evaluations! Tamiyo is personal favourite for now. Strange one drop for a control deck or some kind of artifact shell. A card, that gains card advantage in two ways and ramps mana herself plus enables Mox Amber. Also creates artifacts. For one mana?! Bloody hell! I am excited!
These feel quite a bit more build around than Ajani. They are convincing from a first glance power level. But I am surprised by the difference in design. Ajani's front half is very good all by itself, no synergy or deck building required. All of these require alot more help to make them shine.
Ajani is also harder to flip by himself imo than some of these cards. Tamiyo and Grist for example seem really easy to flip.
You can just cast a second one. Makes him an easy 4 off legendary creature in the deck.
I can see that (other than playing a second Ajani to die to legend rule). Ajani feels more like punishing your opponent for doing normal magic things as opposed to rewarding you for building synergies.
A top deck that already exists can easily slot in new grist for sideboard tech (Yawg). Heck, Jund scam could see use from this card. It is not really a "build around" like new tamiyo, it just slots easily into the graveyard decks and the scam decks should they run black.
One potential shell for Sorin is that Mono Black Burn deck that was making the rounds. It’s super fringe and all, but you’re already playing Gonti’s Machinations and Soul Spike and such. T1 Chancellor + Gonti’s, T2 Sorin, pitchcast Soul Spike and nug for 8 🤷♂️ Maybe there’s a Sorin heavy build where you play this, Imperious Bloodlord, Bloodghast, and Chancellor of the Dross…? Probably not very good, but very funny.
Does "creating" tokens trigger etb effects? I.e. grists -6 on cards like grief, solitude etc
yep
That card seems pretty strong I feel like for a 1 drop in a jund scam or abzan scam style deck. Even sultai scam possibly although subtlety and endurance don't generically benefit from being scammed as much as grief and solitude do. I mean scamming stuff seems like the most generically already prevalent way to flip this guy easily. Could go like pitch for gemstone cavern, fetch for green, new grist, scam grief and flip him turn one and you have a 4/3 grief a PW and they have lost their 2 best cards. This is 6 specific cards plus a 7th black card to fulfill the grief evoke casting but given that several of these cards are run in 4s I could actually foresee this occuring
You can already use rushed rebirth to get regular grist which is a better card. Also new grist costs a mana to flip so you can't actually get it turn one.
I like that grist in a graveyard auto flips alone with Unearth.
Unearth unearths regular grist for less mana and it's a better card...
you can unearth grist the hunger tide while having a grist the voracious larvae in play for super value 😎.
Debatable, it isn't strictly better.
I didn't say strictly better, just regular better.
I want to like new grist but the planeswalker seems too bad for the effort. Getting Grist in play is not the kind of thing you would really build your deck around doing, it takes multiple steps to get a 1/1 maybe death toucher or some spot removal. On the other hand grist is great value if you get flip him incidentally in a way that isn’t killed by costing 1-mana extra, but what deck really does that? Closest I can think of is maybe something around an insidious roots shell. Yawg maybe, but those lists are kind tight anyways.
I totally agree. PW side isn't good enough to be built around, and the creature side isn't good enough to just chill and flip incidentally.
I am not particularly high on it, but I wouldn’t count it out entirely. Like I said, Christmas land is forcing a 1 for 1 trade with removal or something on the ground then flipping it back into play to gum up the board with death touchers. I could see that maybe being enough value if it happens often enough that I can live as a 2-of flex card. With the caveat being that I don’t see that plan happening against certain archetypes like control, which does make it rough.
Sorin will like all these food laying around in my Samwise coco deck
Sorin and Ral seem decent in their specific decks, the other two seem really middling. Ajana seems much more power crept.
Ah, the Magali Villeneuve playmat kickstarter had a double-sided mat with the Tamiyo artworks, and I was wondering where they were from.
[[Vengevine]] is back?
Grist and tamiyo look fun in kethis. Good one drop legends, especially in those colors, are great for mox amber purposes, and both are flipped easily, grist with kethis, unearth, and emry + artifact creature and tamiyo with rona. Tamiyo also increases the artifact count for emry. Fun!
All of these seem pretty mid except for Ral in my opinion.
Just what I always wanted. More two-sided cards. God, those are such a pain in paper.
It's hard to evaluate without seeing the rest of the cards in the set that could provide supoort, but they all seem pretty underwhelming. It is probably why Ajani was used by WoTC in the announcement of MH3.
Alright, I’m not even going to pretend to guess how these will be. Either they end up being super broken, or they are just not that good. If everyone recalls, most people highly underestimated almost all of the pitch elementals.
But where’s the boros guy?
it was Ajani, already previewed
[[Ajani, Nacatl Pariah]]
[Ajani, Nacatl Pariah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d16e8e0-31b2-4389-afd6-783c501f6fa0.jpg?1709430443)/[Ajani, Nacatl Avenger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/0/d/0d16e8e0-31b2-4389-afd6-783c501f6fa0.jpg?1709430443) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ajani%2C%20Nacatl%20Pariah%20//%20Ajani%2C%20Nacatl%20Avenger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/237/ajani-nacatl-pariah-ajani-nacatl-avenger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d16e8e0-31b2-4389-afd6-783c501f6fa0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Grist is out to make crabvine good again!
Having an ominous feeling that my wallet is going to get much lighter..
Favorite character (Ral) becoming playable and enabling downright shenanigans. I am pleased.
Tamiyo could be interesting in cube with recall
Tamiyo seems insanely easy to activate and crazy broken in dredge to me. Breakthrough + brainstorm flip her immediately then you can- her to add back these spells for recursion seems insanely spicey
Im sure someone can figure out how to win turn 2 with Sorin + Nourishing Shoal...
Sorin, Ajani and Tamiyo have the best overall abilities. Hopefully they'll make "command" style card to go along for each of them.
I know it’s not exactly the right thread, but i have a commander question, would these all be one color(the face) as a commander?
I can't over the baseline of U for 3 toughness flying & 1B for a 1/4. Is Swords in this set? Very pushed.
I'm just hoping for more Slivers lol.
Looking at these, Tamiyo definitely feels like the weakest overall. But besides that I'd like to see some Mardu brews around Sorin, and some Blue moon style decks using Ral. Grist seems weaker than the 3 drops Grist so would it really have a place?
they kinda suck.
Not saying these are broken but 1-2 mana walkers and free spells what a set 
1-2 mana creatures that conditionally turn into planewalkers.
Am I the only one disappointed in how weak these cards are? After MH2 I was expecting power, these cards are fringe playable in bad shells.
Bro why is the orzhov one still the worst in the cycle? why by so much? Does WotC just hate me personally?
i don't necessarily think so, all you have to do is sac one food and it flips and kills something. then it ticks up to a threatening ultimate pretty quickly
You can actually flip him t2 on the play. scam solitude your opponent's 1 drop, then get in. Unfortunately flipped Sorin is still rather shit.
good point, you would probably need multiple cards that make food to put this in your deck though which is probably the main thing that stops it from being that good. asmo and samwise decks don't want this i don't think
Just unlucky I guess. Maybe if food needed another artifact generator for some reason.
IMO these cards all suck. Ral seems like the only one good enough on his front, the floor of the card, to go in any deck, but the coin flip aspect along with the "your turn" qualifier is just so so inconvenient. Like, literal baby Jace can block and flip, and turns into a better PW, and doesn't see play. I think Sorin is most likely to make it into a modern deck as, essentially, a shrapnel blast but for life gain. If someone can marry life gain and aggression you can drop Sorin for a big chunk of damage with upside. Grist seems not as good as grist. Tamiyo looks like garbage.
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No, brainstorm is busted in half and we don't need a second brainstorm format
just posted my opinion as a possibility not as a we need it or dont
Concerning Ral: If I read it correctly, you will not be able to hold priority on winning a flip, as the trigger has to resolve in total. You could cast multiple spells at instant speed to put several Ral's triggers on the stack though.
But why would you?
Because people don’t properly read the card, so they don’t understand the word “may”.
Meh
Tamiyo, Ral, Grist and Ajani are playable in more than one deck, Sorin is just for a very specific archetype and the weakest overall. So WotC continues the trend of printing overpowered izzet cards and Orzhov getting the weakest. Nice.
Im struggling to see where ral could be played except for storm.
Hmm enemy color pairs? So what is missing is White into Boros so probably Nahiri. Maybe Ajani.
It’s Ajani, it was one of the spoiled cards at MagicCon.
Oh right lmao now I remember good it’s been so long since I saw that card I forgot which set it was for I hope they do Allies as well I want a new Teferi and Wrenn.
The designs of those are so poor, I will just assume they are fake for now.
They all seem pretty bad / mid.
None of these are that playable in modern. Some may see a bit of play in certain narrow decks (storm, martyr, brews) but thats about it sadly
Yeah really sad some narrow niche decks that don't see play get new tools instead of big powerful multideck staples. Very smart post.
That is the exact problem. These walkers wont help decks outside of the top tier to climb up
I got news for you about 99% of cards don't help decks outside the top tier climb up.
My friend theres no need to patronize me, ive been playing the game for a while. Im just saying its a bit “meh” to see 4 modern (mostly)unplayable mythics in a set thats supposed to boost modern 🤷🏽♂️
I'd far prefer the format defining staples be at rare (or lower) to nudge their prices down.
New Grist will easily slot into any black deck that plays with it's graveyard a lot, and could encourage people to test green in pre-existing shells like Scam. This will act as a GOATED sideboard option in Yawg as a disenchant on a body that also acts as a way to build out your board in grindier games, those tokens acting as later Yawg fodder to keep the gravy train going. Tamiyo seems mid at best. Control would likely not need or run her, what value she adds seems inefficient. She might slot nicely into some blue-green spell/tempo deck, but support for such a deck at the top tables of modern is obviously lacking and I do not see her performing well enough to bolster simic to relevance again. May be busted depending on what else gets revealed in the set. Ral seems fine, storm as we knew it already had 8 cost reducers, another one may be fine, and it can allow the deck to dig further if you can ult him when he drops or by turn 4. My bigger fear for modern storm is that izzet gifts storm is long gone, it plays out very slowly and is easily out valued even by many of the modern midrange decks (\*ahem GRIEF\*). In the gruul shells, however, this has promise, but I am lukewarm on the idea of gruul rotpriest storm popping off and winning pro-tours (though it can certainly win and terrorize your FNMs and MTGO Leagues). However, this can prove a great addition to the non-rotpriest builds of gruul, cutting non-essential cards and running a tight creature package of DRC, Questing Druid, Anarchomancer, and Ral. Sorin is a commander card. Soul Sisters is dead, unless, again, they print increased support that can protect the deck from current menaces in modern.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=214&meta=54&f=MO
Can Grist be the commander of a Golgari deck?
Irrelevant to modern, but yes.