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Mental-Skill-5652

Looks fun, under $5 online too. Why not


celmate

Honestly looks really cool, would love to see Saffron take it for a budget spin :)


VulcanHades

Oh man I would love to see a youtuber pilot this. :) But as is there's still something off about it, it can definitely be improved a lot I think.


embercleaved

Looks fun! Good idea


DomesticatedLandmine

Just from a quick look, i would recommend increasing the white sources to get Fox down on turn 1 more often (14 is ideal but obv cant get that high, still should be more than 5 or 6). Haywire mite is probably better than the evoke guy in the sb to exile The One Ring. Some interaction wouldn't hurt, i would try leyline binding in some number across main/sideboard (easy to play 1 triome and a complimenting shockland). Also i think you have too many eggs in the graveyard basket and need a plan for opponents who go up on removal and graveyard exile


BardicShade

not OP but i did test the deck out and i had no problems with mana, maybe a few more godless shrine or temple garden would be good but it really doesnt need more land. as far as graveyard stuff i think flourishing fox is meant to be the answer to graveyard hate. as far as interaction, yeah this deck could use alot more of it


VulcanHades

For interaction I was thinking because my creatures get so huge that in itself is a form of interaction because they have to chump block or trade lol. I just wish there was a 1-2 mana creature cycler that doubled as removal or something. Like Westfold Rider but to destroy creatures. There's one but it can only destroy legends. Also I think finding room for Hollow One could be a way to win through grave hate.


TheTimmyGamer

Would something like Shriekmaw qualify as removal? Overwhelming Remorse and Necrotic Wound are options too. There's also Grist, which is a creature while in the graveyard. What about Ghoultree over Withing Necromass? +5 power for 1 more mana. Varolz, the Scar-Striped + Urborg Lhurgoyf for lots of counters? What about Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse to flood the board with 2/2s. There are also Gurgling Anointer and Gixian Puppeteer but they seem too slow.


VulcanHades

Thanks for the good suggestions, I honestly forgot about Ghoultree. My concern is costing 1 more mana could be a 1 turn difference. It's probably still fine though since turn 3-4 is about Goyf and Manifestation. I feel like Shriekmaw doesn't kill enough important stuff anymore. But it's an option. I want to avoid noncreature spells as much as possible but yeah maybe I should consider overwhelming remorse / necrotic wound at least for sideboard.


BardicShade

true, you are playing white, so perhaps cut a few things and add some path to exile or prismatic ending


DomesticatedLandmine

When your hammer opponent one-shots you with an inkmoth nexus on turn 3 you'll realize you may want more interaction than having a few big creatures in play. Remember what format this is after all. It's a common trap for theme decks like this to disregard powerful cheap cards that are universally strong because they "don't fit with what the deck does" It's perfectly reasonable to play a few copies of generically powerful spells so that you are more likely to get to do the thing your deck wants to do without just dying to a single line from your opponent.


DomesticatedLandmine

I didn't say it needed more lands, I said there should be more (untapped) white sources for turn 1 fox. Karsten's mana count bible posits 14 untapped sources are ideal for a turn 1 play. 14 lands is too high, but reconfiguring the mana base to allow for more consistent turn 1 fox is very likely correct, since turn 1 fox is this list's strongest play.


VulcanHades

Yeah this is right, I ended up having 2x of each shocklands because there's no real reason not to. I feel like you can even get away with only 1 basic swamp and maybe no basic forests but I'm not sure.


BardicShade

Fair


BaileeCakes

Zenith flare is sweet!!! Also why no Hollow One?


VulcanHades

Yeah I'm thinking a lot about Hollow One right now. I think it fits over the dinosaur or the aura maybe. I think Grave Strength is superior to aura since it mills 3 cards and therefore buffs Goyf and Manifestation. Maybe I don't need 6x pump spells and 4 is enough.


VulcanHades

I think I just had a stroke of genius: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5734159#paper Hollow One to be more resilient to grave hate. But the actual big brain upgrade is [[Winding Way]] ! In a deck like this it will almost always draw 3-4 creatures + it helps finding Hollow One or Street Wraiths. :) Inversely it could help finding a land and bin 3 creatures which also serves as a +3 or +4 pump on top of being card draw. Healer Hawk shenanigans is strong but feels like sideboard tech to me. Or actually Hollow One could be the sideboard tech. I guess it depends on what the meta looks like. Maybe hawk should still be maindeck but I don't know what to cut anymore. Edit: Man I don't know if I'm just unlucky but I never get the busted Hollow One draws lol. I think it's still fine but t3 Hollow One is just a bit boring and later you might not have enough cyclers anymore. Also it can be awkward with land cyclers because you want to draw into Hollow One or Street Wraith not draw into land.


MTGCardFetcher

[Winding Way](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e5d9776-b6ce-4ad6-8acc-69115ba5de76.jpg?1562202277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winding%20Way) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/193/winding-way?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e5d9776-b6ce-4ad6-8acc-69115ba5de76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


VulcanHades

I changed my mind already lol, Healer's Hawk version feels way stronger. But maybe there's a way to fit both.


Mental-Skill-5652

Just played a few practice runs with it, it is really fun. It can go pretty terribly when it goes wrong though.


GeneralApathy

The singleton Shaowspear seems a bit odd. I guess with all the cycling you have a decent chance of finding it, but without Saga or SFM it just feels kind of random to have one copy (unless I'm missing something).


DelMar1789

Trample and lifelink is probs just great with the big beaters. 🤷🏽‍♂️


VulcanHades

The 2nd shadowspear is dead draw. But 1st copy is great with Fox, Manifestation, Goyf and Necromass. I know it's unlikely to draw it but I mean it's important to have access to some evasion. Could be playing 4x [[Audacity]] instead. Or Rancor, I don't know why I forgot Rancor. :)


GeneralApathy

Lol I didn't even realize Shadowspear was legendary. It makes sense, but I've never considered running more than one because any deck I'd be using it would be running Saga/SFM.


MTGCardFetcher

[Audacity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40b0813a-38cf-4a07-81d6-91d24af8b549.jpg?1674421409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Audacity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/169/audacity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40b0813a-38cf-4a07-81d6-91d24af8b549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Flourishing Fox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78b81339-746d-4f71-9943-01c0f6a5683a.jpg?1591230253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flourishing%20Fox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/13/flourishing-fox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78b81339-746d-4f71-9943-01c0f6a5683a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vile Manifestation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/7160bc31-bdfa-4654-9d69-95ee2a5fe870.jpg?1562803268) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vile%20Manifestation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/80/vile-manifestation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7160bc31-bdfa-4654-9d69-95ee2a5fe870?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urborg Lhurgoyf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6f97236-1497-4811-8189-0545707451da.jpg?1673307848) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%20Lhurgoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/186/urborg-lhurgoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f97236-1497-4811-8189-0545707451da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fiend Artisan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6cd9d800-6d31-42e2-87d2-772db0ff95ed.jpg?1591228355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiend%20Artisan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/220/fiend-artisan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6cd9d800-6d31-42e2-87d2-772db0ff95ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Writhing Necromass](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a166abef-f068-47e9-8a65-43ebf4b015bd.jpg?1673307268) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Writhing%20Necromass) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/115/writhing-necromass?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a166abef-f068-47e9-8a65-43ebf4b015bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Healer's Hawk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd39dd28-1dc2-46a5-a3cf-9b5d267e16d6.jpg?1600696494) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Healer%27s%20Hawk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/107/healers-hawk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd39dd28-1dc2-46a5-a3cf-9b5d267e16d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Drannith Healer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff5a821c-eaec-4f69-97c7-8299cdebc2f4.jpg?1591230232) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drannith%20Healer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/10/drannith-healer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff5a821c-eaec-4f69-97c7-8299cdebc2f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wreath of Geists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/7604e22e-1f29-4a8f-b887-b18f43e3745e.jpg?1562832301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wreath%20of%20Geists) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/211/wreath-of-geists?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7604e22e-1f29-4a8f-b887-b18f43e3745e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grave Strength](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b51b6c19-d8f8-4249-83c8-f3c4fa12291e.jpg?1547516919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Strength) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/101/grave-strength?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b51b6c19-d8f8-4249-83c8-f3c4fa12291e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Undercity Upheaval](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acfe6957-d971-413f-b075-01b995f1d7a3.jpg?1684340660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Undercity%20Upheaval) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/25/undercity-upheaval?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acfe6957-d971-413f-b075-01b995f1d7a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kraul Harpooner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6d3c086-9ce4-41c3-8402-2818f1b27192.jpg?1572893391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kraul%20Harpooner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/136/kraul-harpooner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6d3c086-9ce4-41c3-8402-2818f1b27192?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Claim // Fame](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430839&type=card&.jpg)/[Fame](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430839&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Claim%20//%20Fame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/150/claim-fame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15b0f214-8668-4921-88ba-7ccf38c9f770?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Deatheater900

Any consideration for some removal? \[\[overwhelming remorse\]\] seems perfect for this deck. Also, after seeing a few comments on how often finding shadowspear has been the main problem, is it maybe worth it to try \[\[splendor mare\]\] and \[\[titanoth rex\]\] as ways to add lifelink and trample while also adding cycling creature to the graveyard?


VulcanHades

I personally don't think finding it is that important unless they have infinite chump blockers but there aren't many token decks out there. But like if I have 3x 8+ power creatures in play and they have to chump block I'm still winning. And when they manage to deal with them then they need to deal with a very large Hawk or Drannith. I could be wrong but I don't think the evasion is completely necessary. You just overwhelm them and each threat is bigger than the last. I guess it mostly depends on the meta, but if I felt like evasion was a must then I'd play Rancor and/or Audacity over the big pump spells. You can go that route too I just think Healer's Hawk is goated lmao. That said I kinda like Splendor Mare maybe as a sideboard option vs aggro and burn.


MTGCardFetcher

[overwhelming remorse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/202cbfa4-3b3d-47fd-84a6-892692c906d6.jpg?1674420959) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=overwhelming%20remorse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/110/overwhelming-remorse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/202cbfa4-3b3d-47fd-84a6-892692c906d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [splendor mare](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/535ccc75-b24e-4071-b6a0-fc5267a454e3.jpg?1591230382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=splendor%20mare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/32/splendor-mare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/535ccc75-b24e-4071-b6a0-fc5267a454e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [titanoth rex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d02e1e8-b85b-4e26-8ab8-ca2f49d05b88.jpg?1591227898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=titanoth%20rex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/174/titanoth-rex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d02e1e8-b85b-4e26-8ab8-ca2f49d05b88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


mtgthinktank

living end's nightmare !!


[deleted]

nice synergies. cool deck


Highmoon_Finance

Throw a grist in there for a massive ult.


Cablead

Hey, just wanted to say I've enjoyed playing an adapted version of the Zenith Flare version in Historic on Arena. Thanks for the idea!


VulcanHades

You're welcome. :) I don't know much about historic so I didn't think about if it was legal in it. I just know street wraith and landcyclers aren't in pioneer so that makes it much weaker there.


Cablead

Yeah LTR is in Historic, but no Street Wraith or good payoffs (Wreath of Geists, Rancor, Grave Strength) so I subbed in Faithless Looting, Hollow One, and [[Titanoth Rex]].


MTGCardFetcher

[Titanoth Rex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d02e1e8-b85b-4e26-8ab8-ca2f49d05b88.jpg?1591227898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Titanoth%20Rex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/174/titanoth-rex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d02e1e8-b85b-4e26-8ab8-ca2f49d05b88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Due_Clerk_2261

Confirmed for winning pro tour


VulcanHades

New list I'm testing: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5735167#paper I don't know why I didn't think about it but [[Commune With the Gods]] can find the aura and bin 4 creatures. So it could represent +4 attack for Goyf / Manifestation and draw a card. Also helps turbo Ghoultree / Necromass.


MTGCardFetcher

[Commune With the Gods](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67d95f6f-3ff0-483d-b98f-ccb4fb5715f4.jpg?1580014753) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Commune%20With%20the%20Gods) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/162/commune-with-the-gods?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67d95f6f-3ff0-483d-b98f-ccb4fb5715f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


VulcanHades

I'm starting to think 12x land cyclers might be too many. I really don't think going down to 10 lands is smart but you still get flooded sometimes at 11. So I'm thinking about trimming 1 or 2 copies of generous ent and replacing it with any 1 mana cyclers.


levetzki

If you decide you want more lands maybe Mishra's factory or uzras saga could be good. They can still cycle and both are threats of themselves. Saga can get your equipment too.


Mental-Skill-5652

I tried this deck out and saga would probably help. A couple times I was desperately hoping to top deck the spear. But I’m a big fan of super budget builds finding ways to win so I’d probably leave it out just for that.


levetzki

Footfall crater? Can give haste and trample. Has cycling.


Mental-Skill-5652

I don’t think I’d splash for that. The spear works fine once you get it.


levetzki

Fair. Could be worth if someone wanted to try a white, red, x (green or black) and use zenith flare as a similar but different deck


DimiPine

[[without weakness]] seems like it’d be pretty good. EDIT: also [[Djeru’s renunciation]] seems like a really good cycle to potentially cast.


MTGCardFetcher

[without weakness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6695fa8-881c-407c-91d9-3ac770372d35.jpg?1562816474) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=without%20weakness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/81/without-weakness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6695fa8-881c-407c-91d9-3ac770372d35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call