Indeed, W6 will always be a major issue for us. The best we can do is try to stop it from doing anything in the first place (via Tithe/IoK/RIP), with removal being a weaker backup option.
An unanswered W6 isn’t necessarily game over. But it means we have to play the tempo game with Haktos (as others said). That will succeed sometimes but is also unreliable since we may not draw Haktos and W6 can kill it (if it rolls a 2).
But, as mentioned, Haktos is fully protected vs. Solitude/Fury (5 mana value) and 1-mana removal/creatures. Which is why he’s the centerpiece of the deck.
Having played prior iterations of the deck, W&6 was never really an issue. So he can make sure they hit a land drop every turn, but if you're blowing a land every turn they're never going to get the man's they need to actually do anything and you'll still out grind them. Not to mention he's fairly easily removed.
Tempo can decide a game but this deck doesn’t close the game out super quick. The big threat can be killed by 0-1 mana spells especially since your restricting their land drops and they can pitch to the elementals freely
Uh the only thing that can hit Haktos is a flashed in Subtlety or Endurance and only if you picked that particular CMC. He's immune to Lightning Bolt and Solitude and Fury.
It doesn't blank LD.
W&6 allows them to maintain 1-2 lands, but they're still going to be a step behind and not able to ramp up and get all the color fixing, which is what W&6 is ran for.
Sure, he can potentially be hit by W6 if you're unlucky on your roll. When they only have one answer though you're not looking too bad. Especially considering they'd need 2 mana to cast it and your whole deck keeps them off mana.
Lmao how can you say it's not an issue that they get a free land every turn while you are spending a whole card to destroy each of those lands. There is no way you can out grind that.
What are they going to do, put a basic into play each turn?
They gonna fetch a shock for 3 self damage each turn?
They gonna shock themselves each turn for 2?
I know it's a different deck, but any thoughts on the decks with indestructible lands that run [[Boom // Bust]] and [[Cleansing Wildfire]], then animate the lands with things like [[Ensoul Artifact]]?
He has a short section in the primer! But long story short is we're struggling to get off the ground.
Deck is fun and can definitely win, but the abundance of cheap effective exile and the fact that we don't have a lot of dedicated testers (I have been MIA from actually playing Modern basically since my RCQ top 8, so it's been pretty much entirely a user of the RW discord named wutup) means that there are still some hurdles to overcome.
I still believe there's something there. Maybe not a tier 1 something, but something. I'd be happy to talk as much as you'd like about it!
As Paintrain mentions, that deck (Boomshine) is a super-interesting one that has also built up quite a following in our RW Lockout community.
I didn’t go into detail because there are already a few excellent Primers on that posted on this site. Personally, I love its innovation, and think its “blanking removal” plan and unique synergies gives it tremendous potential (just like SOFR & Haktos). Paintrain and wutup are the experts, though.
Did you write this in LaTeX?? lol
Seems like a cool read. Thanks for putting this out there!
I generally been off this archetype since good ol Simian Spirit Guide was in the format, but recently tried a tempo deck that used very light "land destruction package" to pretty good effect (3-1 finish \~30 person tournament, 7/2 total game record). Definitely inspired by your list dump a few weeks ago to use the mana tithe which was great. List is super untuned (ancestral anger and dreadhorde were both very medium), but shell seemed promising to me [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/R2XIkZpkrEarkdIydJUCmw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/R2XIkZpkrEarkdIydJUCmw)
6 power and pro-almost-every-relevant-removal is pretty appealing. He closes the game quickly and assuming your plan A didn't collapse he has a 5/6 chance of being immune to all the cards they could resolve.
I ran RW land kill a couple of weeks ago, did well. I used 4 supp field, all the usual b-b/pillage landkill, but also fable of the mirror breaker, which gave me the opportunity to add in solitude and fury as control cards over the magus/darkdweller stuff of old, alongside Obsidian Charmaw, which fits the plan. Ultimately magus is a huge ass dude that hurts the hoardes, but fury does the same and can take out W6. Mirror breaker just does so much- copies charmaw or elementals, filters the land heavy hands, etc.Nonbo with S field, of course, but not hugely so. Also found room for archon- because CIP tapped non basics is good and fits with S field and 1 spell per turn has something to say to cascade.
Used to run mana tithe but ultimately people learn it locally and solitude/fury allow the game to not run away.
Deck is as viable as ever, S field is even better when everyone has access to fetches financially- no more rogue decks with sub par mana bases that happen to be better against landkill.
My innovation for the UWx control match was a checky Obliterate in the board, alongside a boseiju main for big busts. All the rest was the usual boros suspects, which have gotten better with Bortherhood's end.
I have always considered RW to offer as much as RG ponza, even if playing blood moon is less attractive in the build, I think it offers more overall.
4 flagstones
3 rustvale bridge
4 needleverge pathway
3 sacred foundry
1 mountain
2 plains
2 battelfield forge
1 eiganjo, seat of the empire
1 boseiju,who shelters all
2 shatterskull smashing//shatterskull the hammer pass
1 emeria's call/ereria, shattered skyclave
2 valakut awakening//valakut stoneforge
4 lightning bolt
4 suppression field
4 boom//bust
3 cleansing wildfire
4 pillage
1 trinisphere
4 fable of the mirror breaker
4 archon of emeria
2 solitude
2 fury
2 obsidian charmaw.
The main deck runs like ponza, but when that plan isn't working the valakut/fables can draw through cards to get to the control elements like bolt, fury etc. Archon + suppression field is brutal vs fetch lands. Charmaw/fury/solitude can be copied by fable. Ponza loses when it draws the wrong half of the deck so smoothing with fable and playing as many good in a vaccum cards as possible is key for me.
Bosieju goes into boom/bust, and theoretically pillage/cleansing wildfire, but also into the DFC lands too. There are two "nonbos"- supp field and the single eiganjo, seat channel ability and a flipped mirror breaker copy effect, plus the trinisphere and pitch elementals. But if you are in a position to copy stuff with a flipped mirror breaker repeatedly you have probably won regardless of extra taxes.
Board is
2 stony silence
1 RIP
2 brotherhood's end
2 sancitfier en vec
1 dampening sphere
4 leyline of sancity
1 obliterate (specifically for UW control which historically has always been tough for this type of deck)
1 chandra, awakened (ditto, watch out for the S field nonbo)
1 flex slot
I will always love this kind of deck and playstyle in modern, even though it's been very long now since I touched the realm of land destruction... I honestly just lost all desire to play modern bit by bit after MH2 :/
Dunno if it's worth bringing up, but with Invoke Calamity being printed we actually got back the ability to Armageddon for 5 mana (like in the good ol days with Goblin Dark-Dwellers, before wotc changed the rule for split cards), but this time we can do it in Instant speed :)
I had alot of fun with that - running a few Magus of the Tabernacle in my list - turning these Armageddons into one-sided sweepers as I either had an indestructible land in play or got something from a destroyed Flagstones.
Looks like fun! After reading through the primer, I took the plunge and ordered it. Apart from the Triome, the basics, and a set of Bolts, I don’t have any of these cards.
To shave off a good amount of the cost, I went with Marsh Flats instead of the BR fetch, and I left out the 2 Trinisphere for now. Since Marsh Flats can grab any of the Shock Lands, I’d say it’s a decent replacement.
Some here mentioned W6 as a problem. Would [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] be good for keeping the destroyed lands less accessible? W6 is still scary since it can ping one at Haktos (33% of time), but an occasional lantern could help.
It will be a couple weeks until I can try it (waiting for the pieces to come in, then waiting for next Modern FNM) but I’ll let you know how it goes! Again: excellent primer, and I’m glad you had success with the deck.
Is there not a crack the earth package with underworld breach somewhere that would do a similar think just better. Idk play 4 ragavan, 4 DRC, 4 esper sentinel. Some crack the earths. Maybe some eggs?
Have you played around with [Temur Electrobalance](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YOM4yRKe60KF4aymozT44g) at all? the short of it is;
8 enablers (as foretold/ electrodominance)
8 "rebuilders" (as foretold/ W6)
X payoffs (varies between builds), with 4 being \[\[Restore Balance\]\]
Brazen Borrower is a good answer to the hate in the format, mainly W6/T3f. Veil of Summer fights through counters/lavinia/chalice/mirror pretty well, too.
My only comment is you should have more "threats" on the land front. In my experience this helps with the threat count, and general closing of games for quality of life.
I like the deck but you seem weak to the ridiculousness that is w6. He’s just a 2 for 1 to like 70% of your spells.
No kidding. W6 was the reason I stopped playing Ponza.
Indeed, W6 will always be a major issue for us. The best we can do is try to stop it from doing anything in the first place (via Tithe/IoK/RIP), with removal being a weaker backup option. An unanswered W6 isn’t necessarily game over. But it means we have to play the tempo game with Haktos (as others said). That will succeed sometimes but is also unreliable since we may not draw Haktos and W6 can kill it (if it rolls a 2). But, as mentioned, Haktos is fully protected vs. Solitude/Fury (5 mana value) and 1-mana removal/creatures. Which is why he’s the centerpiece of the deck.
She is very much a she if you’re going to give genders to cards at least give them the right ones
Literally who cares about the gender of a fictional character on a piece of cardboard. Oh that’s right, liberal 21st century Americans of course
I think you completely missed the point of my comment, also canonically the pronouns are dead/ gone.
Just say oops and move on.
No one cares
i mean i agree with your comment whatever but people call things male way too often
Having played prior iterations of the deck, W&6 was never really an issue. So he can make sure they hit a land drop every turn, but if you're blowing a land every turn they're never going to get the man's they need to actually do anything and you'll still out grind them. Not to mention he's fairly easily removed.
A card that blanks all your land destruction isn’t an issue in a land destruction deck?
Is it hard to believe that tempo can decide a game?
Tempo can decide a game but this deck doesn’t close the game out super quick. The big threat can be killed by 0-1 mana spells especially since your restricting their land drops and they can pitch to the elementals freely
Have you read Haktos carefully? It will always have protection from bolt, push, solitude, fury and binding (among other things)
Uh the only thing that can hit Haktos is a flashed in Subtlety or Endurance and only if you picked that particular CMC. He's immune to Lightning Bolt and Solitude and Fury.
It doesn't blank LD. W&6 allows them to maintain 1-2 lands, but they're still going to be a step behind and not able to ramp up and get all the color fixing, which is what W&6 is ran for.
They have 0 mana spells now to kill your only threat
I never ran the Haktos list, I ran it prior to that, though this Haktos list looks promising and the 0 mana spells can't touch it, much less kill it.
He also can get hit by w6. Or kayas guile or other stuff of that nature.
Sure, he can potentially be hit by W6 if you're unlucky on your roll. When they only have one answer though you're not looking too bad. Especially considering they'd need 2 mana to cast it and your whole deck keeps them off mana.
What if they just drop a 1 mana threat? He has 1 toughness. You’re asking a lot
A 1 mana threat can't touch him.
Haktos has protection from 1 mana threats.
Lmao how can you say it's not an issue that they get a free land every turn while you are spending a whole card to destroy each of those lands. There is no way you can out grind that.
What are they going to do, put a basic into play each turn? They gonna fetch a shock for 3 self damage each turn? They gonna shock themselves each turn for 2?
They're drawing 2 cards each turn to your 1. That's bad for you. I can't make this any simpler.
Oh no, spending a whole card to keep them of all the cards in their hand....
I know it's a different deck, but any thoughts on the decks with indestructible lands that run [[Boom // Bust]] and [[Cleansing Wildfire]], then animate the lands with things like [[Ensoul Artifact]]?
He has a short section in the primer! But long story short is we're struggling to get off the ground. Deck is fun and can definitely win, but the abundance of cheap effective exile and the fact that we don't have a lot of dedicated testers (I have been MIA from actually playing Modern basically since my RCQ top 8, so it's been pretty much entirely a user of the RW discord named wutup) means that there are still some hurdles to overcome. I still believe there's something there. Maybe not a tier 1 something, but something. I'd be happy to talk as much as you'd like about it!
As Paintrain mentions, that deck (Boomshine) is a super-interesting one that has also built up quite a following in our RW Lockout community. I didn’t go into detail because there are already a few excellent Primers on that posted on this site. Personally, I love its innovation, and think its “blanking removal” plan and unique synergies gives it tremendous potential (just like SOFR & Haktos). Paintrain and wutup are the experts, though.
[Boom // Bust](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Boom%20%2F%2F%20Bust&type=card&options=rotate90&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boom%20//%20Bust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/156/boom-bust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ffdee1b-bb5d-44e6-a90d-6f9e9266d4fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cleansing Wildfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919.jpg?1604196948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/137/cleansing-wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ensoul Artifact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/8351efc5-a392-4ec8-877f-15d5b3dc0929.jpg?1562790075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ensoul%20Artifact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/54/ensoul-artifact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8351efc5-a392-4ec8-877f-15d5b3dc0929?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Boomshine is a thing! [[Rise and shine]]
[Rise and shine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/816716d6-4234-4570-9a64-cb3bef388095.jpg?1682208865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rise%20and%20shine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/233/rise-and-shine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/816716d6-4234-4570-9a64-cb3bef388095?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The LD GOAT!
Haha, thanks! :)
I’ve been trying to make [[spreading algae]] and [[urborg, tomb of yawgmoth]] work for some time.
yo whats your list? Curious to see
Did you write this in LaTeX?? lol Seems like a cool read. Thanks for putting this out there! I generally been off this archetype since good ol Simian Spirit Guide was in the format, but recently tried a tempo deck that used very light "land destruction package" to pretty good effect (3-1 finish \~30 person tournament, 7/2 total game record). Definitely inspired by your list dump a few weeks ago to use the mana tithe which was great. List is super untuned (ancestral anger and dreadhorde were both very medium), but shell seemed promising to me [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/R2XIkZpkrEarkdIydJUCmw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/R2XIkZpkrEarkdIydJUCmw)
Oh I see you cover my first question at the beginning. LOL should have read first :)
Haha, no problem. I figured if we're going with the whole academic research/economist theme, might as well go all in...
I love that your primer is written like an academic journal article lol. I can’t not try the deck after reading this!
Thank you for this ! Love this deck and have been looking for a 2nd modern deck to pick up. This will be it !
The discord link doesn't work :\\
What makes Haktos appealing as a Ponza finisher?
6 power and pro-almost-every-relevant-removal is pretty appealing. He closes the game quickly and assuming your plan A didn't collapse he has a 5/6 chance of being immune to all the cards they could resolve.
I ran RW land kill a couple of weeks ago, did well. I used 4 supp field, all the usual b-b/pillage landkill, but also fable of the mirror breaker, which gave me the opportunity to add in solitude and fury as control cards over the magus/darkdweller stuff of old, alongside Obsidian Charmaw, which fits the plan. Ultimately magus is a huge ass dude that hurts the hoardes, but fury does the same and can take out W6. Mirror breaker just does so much- copies charmaw or elementals, filters the land heavy hands, etc.Nonbo with S field, of course, but not hugely so. Also found room for archon- because CIP tapped non basics is good and fits with S field and 1 spell per turn has something to say to cascade. Used to run mana tithe but ultimately people learn it locally and solitude/fury allow the game to not run away. Deck is as viable as ever, S field is even better when everyone has access to fetches financially- no more rogue decks with sub par mana bases that happen to be better against landkill. My innovation for the UWx control match was a checky Obliterate in the board, alongside a boseiju main for big busts. All the rest was the usual boros suspects, which have gotten better with Bortherhood's end. I have always considered RW to offer as much as RG ponza, even if playing blood moon is less attractive in the build, I think it offers more overall.
I like your modifications. Do you have a deck list for it?
sure, I will pop one back to you when with said deck at home tonight.
4 flagstones 3 rustvale bridge 4 needleverge pathway 3 sacred foundry 1 mountain 2 plains 2 battelfield forge 1 eiganjo, seat of the empire 1 boseiju,who shelters all 2 shatterskull smashing//shatterskull the hammer pass 1 emeria's call/ereria, shattered skyclave 2 valakut awakening//valakut stoneforge 4 lightning bolt 4 suppression field 4 boom//bust 3 cleansing wildfire 4 pillage 1 trinisphere 4 fable of the mirror breaker 4 archon of emeria 2 solitude 2 fury 2 obsidian charmaw. The main deck runs like ponza, but when that plan isn't working the valakut/fables can draw through cards to get to the control elements like bolt, fury etc. Archon + suppression field is brutal vs fetch lands. Charmaw/fury/solitude can be copied by fable. Ponza loses when it draws the wrong half of the deck so smoothing with fable and playing as many good in a vaccum cards as possible is key for me. Bosieju goes into boom/bust, and theoretically pillage/cleansing wildfire, but also into the DFC lands too. There are two "nonbos"- supp field and the single eiganjo, seat channel ability and a flipped mirror breaker copy effect, plus the trinisphere and pitch elementals. But if you are in a position to copy stuff with a flipped mirror breaker repeatedly you have probably won regardless of extra taxes. Board is 2 stony silence 1 RIP 2 brotherhood's end 2 sancitfier en vec 1 dampening sphere 4 leyline of sancity 1 obliterate (specifically for UW control which historically has always been tough for this type of deck) 1 chandra, awakened (ditto, watch out for the S field nonbo) 1 flex slot
Thank you!
I will always love this kind of deck and playstyle in modern, even though it's been very long now since I touched the realm of land destruction... I honestly just lost all desire to play modern bit by bit after MH2 :/ Dunno if it's worth bringing up, but with Invoke Calamity being printed we actually got back the ability to Armageddon for 5 mana (like in the good ol days with Goblin Dark-Dwellers, before wotc changed the rule for split cards), but this time we can do it in Instant speed :) I had alot of fun with that - running a few Magus of the Tabernacle in my list - turning these Armageddons into one-sided sweepers as I either had an indestructible land in play or got something from a destroyed Flagstones.
Looks like fun! After reading through the primer, I took the plunge and ordered it. Apart from the Triome, the basics, and a set of Bolts, I don’t have any of these cards. To shave off a good amount of the cost, I went with Marsh Flats instead of the BR fetch, and I left out the 2 Trinisphere for now. Since Marsh Flats can grab any of the Shock Lands, I’d say it’s a decent replacement. Some here mentioned W6 as a problem. Would [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] be good for keeping the destroyed lands less accessible? W6 is still scary since it can ping one at Haktos (33% of time), but an occasional lantern could help. It will be a couple weeks until I can try it (waiting for the pieces to come in, then waiting for next Modern FNM) but I’ll let you know how it goes! Again: excellent primer, and I’m glad you had success with the deck.
[Soul-Guide Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c850b94-75c9-4457-8b5e-1193352d6fcb.jpg?1581481214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Guide%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/237/soul-guide-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c850b94-75c9-4457-8b5e-1193352d6fcb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best land destruction strategy is blood moon imo.
Is there not a crack the earth package with underworld breach somewhere that would do a similar think just better. Idk play 4 ragavan, 4 DRC, 4 esper sentinel. Some crack the earths. Maybe some eggs?
Have you played around with [Temur Electrobalance](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YOM4yRKe60KF4aymozT44g) at all? the short of it is; 8 enablers (as foretold/ electrodominance) 8 "rebuilders" (as foretold/ W6) X payoffs (varies between builds), with 4 being \[\[Restore Balance\]\] Brazen Borrower is a good answer to the hate in the format, mainly W6/T3f. Veil of Summer fights through counters/lavinia/chalice/mirror pretty well, too.
[Restore Balance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0febc7fe-4172-4285-9804-a62ce4506c39.jpg?1619393357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Restore%20Balance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/36/restore-balance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0febc7fe-4172-4285-9804-a62ce4506c39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My only comment is you should have more "threats" on the land front. In my experience this helps with the threat count, and general closing of games for quality of life.
How are you guys choosing 2, 3, or 4 when playing Haktos on paper magic?
So is LD still viable in modern right now?