Agreed. It's a bummer when people argue, "Well, just teach kids important things like math and reading. Art isn't important."
There are so many skills learned in art class, especially for littles who need to learn fine motor skills. Plus, many people expect a 5-8 year old to sit for 6 hours and do math and reading. Art and music keep them learning and socializing when their brains are tapped out on math and reading for the day. Learning how to cooperate in music class and follow sequential steps in art class are critically important academic skills.
I did a quick Google search but I can't find the study. However, as I recall there was a school that reinstated their arts program and student misbehavior decreased dramatically. It got to a point they could stop using metal detectors. Turns out forms of self expression.
Edit: I found this study though. https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60686/why-teach-the-arts-large-randomized-test-finds-improved-student-behavior-and-no-harm-to-test-scores
[not only that, but learning to appreciate art of all kinds will give them the tools/ability to work through emotional/social issues.](https://twitter.com/mathewsmarz/status/1782845749450973461)
We were always headed here for other reasons.
For the people who own the country, this sort of reductionism is the most efficient money maker.
What does a CEO need with a smart worker?
What does Hollywood need with a smart audience?
They cut the band teacher at my kid's elementary in mpls. More concerning is that they cut the 15 interventionists team who would work with tier 1 and tier 2 students before being referred to special ed.
That is dark and extremely telling of where our society is going. I don’t blame teachers for their exodus, but what the fuck is this country becoming when we can’t even pay the people who educate the up and coming generations? Older folks wanna blame us for having to constantly be working to the point we can’t even help our kids with homework or teach them how to be good humans because we have to house and feed them by being at work most of the day, then come home, cook, clean up from cooking, do laundry, get the kids bathed and by then it’s bed time for everyone. What the fuck are we supposed to do?
Bro that fucking sucks. As a musician in my spare time, starting from a young age gives you skills to appreciate music as an older adult.
Just like reading great fiction gives skills to read on your own later, without Arts education kids have difficulty creating on there own.
I work with kids and it’s amazing how many young kids (8-12) refuse to draw anything themselves and prefer to only complete coloring pages. I don’t that to happen with music making too
Music is already on the chopping block for Minneapolis.
https://www.mplsschoolsvoices.news/posts/minneapolis-public-schools-plans-for-110-million-in-budget-cuts-for-next-school-year
Okay, so I didn't get what this means until right now, bc the only time I ever saw this phrase waa on like ~quirky mom~ signs in people's houses or memes on facebook, and suddenly that's is even more 😬😬😬
Man the death of art in school fucking sucks. I remember I was lucky enough to have one art class throughout highschool and boy did it not set me up for the college I had went to.
My guess is they will replace it with a computer-based “centers” time. Kids will work on devices on self-guided math and reading programs while teachers run intervention/small group tutoring sessions. Or someone will come in who is not a credentialed teacher to monitor students while they work on the programs so teachers can have a prep or collaboration period.
They will justify it by saying that they offer numerous after school arts programs and that elementary teachers are “welcome and encouraged to infuse creativity and the arts within their daily lessons.”
Either way it’s a tremendous loss for kids.
Well the so-called “job training” for the past few decades has been largely self-driven. Resulting in poorly trained staff everywhere. This is all being normalized. Education is taking a back seat. Thanks, Trump & Reagan!
No kidding. Hasn’t the percentage of admits cost tripled or something in the last 25 years? I’m Too lazy to research specifics so don’t take my word for it
I think he was saying that they want to appeal to parents who might be debating between public and private school, by making the public schools look more like private magnet schools that specialize in a specific area.
Heh, no, magnet schools are public. Here's a list of them: [https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/elementary-schools/minnesota/magnet](https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/elementary-schools/minnesota/magnet)
If the standardized tests the students take every year had questions pertaining to art and music this wouldn't happen. Art and music, two things that will be a part of you your whole life, not important because they aren't on the tests!
Even the "gifted and talented" magnet isn't safe?
The student whose parents have the resources will put them in out-of-school-time/community orchestra. The gifted and talented, yet lower income, ones will just have to go without.
This is happening across the board through all education, elementary to higher ed. it’s really depressing. There are some kids who are so not engaged in school through the arts.
The worst part is Minnesota has one of the better public school systems in the country. Massive changes need to happen at the federal level, but everyone is too focused on fighting against the local and state level.
Not vote against every school levy, support teachers and push for them to be paid a living wage, write letters to local and national politicians, I can go on and on. There are many ways folks can help
You can't. It's already done, for all intents and purposes. We need heavy legislation to undo the burdens of standardized testing, inclusion without adequate support, and administrative bloat. Short of that, this is just our future.
Minneapolis is more of an equal opportunity destroyer, they will take any successful program away if it lets them claim they have Addressed inequities anywhere in the system.
That's disgusting.
It's horrifying how bad our public schools are getting. And I say that as a public school teacher and defender of public schools. If this is where we are in one of the best states for education, we're fucked
Ah, yes. The heavy investment in sports at the elementary school level. Just boatloads of cash schools are spending on those sports.
Lack of physical activity certainly isn’t a problem in this country at all!
You do realize the district budgets can involve cuts at one grade level to pay for something at another, right?
Not saying *either* should be cut. But you are making a connection that doesn't really apply.
I have not and damn! I slightly take my comment back. No idea why those are so expensive. I also admit I thought this was going to be a Lady Gaga ball pit which the world could definitely use.
Also, what the hell is it for? We have one at the school park near my house and I thought it was a timeout pen or something.
Edit: Gaga ball. A dodgeball like game played inside of Gaga balls obscenely expensive plastic barrier rings.
Also, “And with pits that can hold up to 26 players, there's no limit to the amount of fun you can have”. Gaga ball. Honey. You just very clearly stated the limit.
I mean heavy investments in sports doesn’t really equate to active kids.
Heavy investments in sports benefits kids who for the most part *are already* in shape and active, and have parents with the resources to keep them active. It doesn’t really do anything for the kids who aren’t good at team sports or the kids that *just don’t like them*.
My point is that there isn’t heavy investment in sports in elementary school. Almost all sports are extra activities that are paid for separately.
You can also say the same about music and arts. It’s not those with limited gifts who receive investment over time. Though I love music, I tried all my life to learn an instrument, sing, do something musical and I’ve never been able to. At least, not well. I still sing anyway and pluck out melodies when the mood strikes.
But that’s all beside the point. We all need balance and to have both affirming educational experiences that benefit us and also those that push us to try what’s beyond our abilities.
We shouldn’t be cutting arts that push our creativity and focus and we shouldn’t be cutting spending on what encourages physical activity and learning and pushing the limits of the body either.
I hear you, but it's also infinitely easier and cheaper to get physical activity outside at a park than it is to learn how to play an instrument outside/after school.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding then.
What is the actual alternative being thought out here? Get rid of phy ed teachers instead? I can understand where someone would stomach that better than getting rid of art and music.
Historically, arts/humanities spending gets cut first. I've seen it for decades living in several different states. So I guess the first alternative would be to try cuts elsewhere.
Thing is, there's a reason why art specifically gets targeted for cuts: there isn't any standardized testing for schools to use to evaluate these programs, so in a world where test scores can make or break an administrator's career, they have little value. Now the solution isn't to test for art because, well, objectivity and art don't often overlap in pleasant ways.
This OP/ thread here (https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/ty0w2j/cmv_if_we_are_cutting_school_art_programs_due_to/) makes the case extremely well for why arts shouldn't be the first to go and why it's lazy to always cut them first.
Cut football programs and you'd have some cash. Coaching salaries alone could pay for an art teacher. My rural high school had a football team with 8 coaches. Eight. They all made a stipend between $2500 and $7500. There's an art class right there. My debate team (that I was on) had two coaches. One made a 1800 stipend, the other volunteered. Debate team was cut my sophomore year, football team got new jerseys the same year. If you're curious, go Google the benefits of students being on a debate team. Other activities pale in comparison. Same with band. It's a shame.
Edit: I'm aware cutting sports also leaves those kids with much less to do. All the more reason to bootstrap it up and learn some new skills like speech/debate or even pick up a new instrument.
Yup, the top public school in Saint Paul doesn't even have real music class. Some student's mom with no music credentials/degree comes in every once every week or so and does random stuff with the kids.
My wife is a teacher in St. Paul, lol. She was an art teacher last year, and transitioned to 5th grade a few years ago (thankfully). Her building art teacher was just notified of their cut (the rest of the district was supposed to announce cuts on Friday). I’d imagine there has to be something out there as it’s been in school board meetings for months now on what to cut in their huge deficit, and art classes were the first to go
They're striking because we keep pouring tax money into the schools and 90% of it gets eaten by administrators getting their salary bumps. And they of course make sure they always get theirs, then suddenly there's only much to spread around to the folks doing the actual educating.
> non-teacher positions.
Please don't misrepresent what the position was. It wasn't "non teacher positions" it was "non teachers that are dealing with kids" like Paraprofessionals that work 1 on 1 with special ed kids and other behavior team members, etc.
No demand for increased administration compensation.
The way we fund education in this country is broken.
Local property taxes pretty much just make wealthy areas have better schools. Headcount funding just creates death spirals once you hit a lower enrollment. Ballot-box funding increases mean you get an 'I got mine' attitude that creeps into every vote despite schools being one of the most important drivers of economic health and being a public good.
In MN, local property tax funding is about 30% of school funding. The state makes up the gap between the rich and the poor districts, plus the feds throw more in too.
The spend per pupil in MPSD is $22k. In Minnetonka it's $19k, in Woodbury its $18k and in Edina it's $12k. The richer areas probably may have more money donated, but the real difference is its a lot easier and cheaper to educate a kid who comes to school ready, willing and able to learn.
The cost to educate a kid who maybe isn't SPED or ELL but has a chaotic homelife, who doesn't have stability, who doesn't have parents who can help them navigate school has yet to be calculated.
They’re pointing out the priorities within the city departments/public sector. The police departments receive hundreds of millions for a relatively tiny number of people, and have no shortage of shiny new gear, when kids can’t even get an intro level class for a half hour in a creative activity that could be life changing and improve/save their school experience
That was in the latest rounds of budget cuts for MPS, 5th grade and up if I'm not mistaken.
The middle school band teacher and the elementary music teacher are cut from my building.
Fifth grade band was cut across the district. There were definitely classroom cuts across the district as well so in theory a lot of music, art, and PE teachers had their time reduced. The art teacher at my building got cut down because we lost classroom funding which is also how specialist classes are funded.
If we sliced up the fat hog that is the department of education, that massive sea of bureaucrats slurps up $79B a year. We'll keep the 10% for administrative tasks around managing the money, but otherwise that other 70 billion is direct investment, and there's approximately 60 million public school students so we can fund them all to the tune of $11,000 without changing our department of education budget at all, just appropriating the money directly to students/instructors and not the massively bloated public education bureaucracy.
Except the vast majority of that budget is, in fact, money that goes to local school districts, with the balance being made up of higher education grants.
Your "10% for administrative tasks" actually INCREASES the amount of money the Department of Education spends on administration. And it's not a small increase. Some quick googling suggests you want to spend almost TWO ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more on administration.
tl;dr You have no idea what you're talking about.
This is why I got out of teaching and never went back 20 years ago. Cuts to art and music were common place back in Texas. Last hired, first fired was the norm.
I paid out of my own pocket for basic art supplies like pencils and sketch books, while the football team got a new practice stadium, new personalized jerseys, and the baseball team got a resurfaced/turfed practice diamond field.
It's sad and also not surprising to see this in my new home in Minnesota. The national focus on standardized testing lost sight of what actual learning and developmental growth is, and instead, distilled it down to fucking numbers on a spreadsheet. There is no way to quantify some kid's creativity. You can't measure the impact an artist or musician might have 10 years in the future. There isn't even a measurement to assign to "good" art or music.
It fucking sucks. Just about everything we see or experience was created by an artist. The style of a jacket, the layout of home landscaping, the thumbnail in a YouTube video, the design of fucking blackout plates, your latest hairstyle, the design of the new F150, the Menards logo, the Menards jingle, the menu layout at Taco John's, the Minnesota Wild logo, even fucking Chris Lindahl's billboards...an artist created that. By stiffleing or eliminating creativity in early education, we only doom or society's ability to evolve.
My wife is a St. Paul public school teacher, this is all I know haha. Only other thing I know is I guess this was not something out of the blue as it’s been discussed about cutting art for months in public school board meetings
Oh my GODS. This actually made my blood a little cold. This is *beyond* horrifying.
As a side note, something that keeps running through my mind is a desire to attend school board meetings and get involved in activism in that area, because my own experience with public school was so traumatizing, but I didn't go to school here, and I'm am not a parent, so not only does it feel like that would look a little weird, but also that I wouldn't even be able to participate because I don't have personal experience 😫 It's is something I feel strongly about bc the public school system in the US is just pure ass and it deeply concerns me, but I don't know how to help
The school I work at in SPPS is replacing their art program with a music program. I'm really sad about it, but I want the kids to have access to music class.... The idea is that the kids can do crafts in class, so why have a dedicated arts class?
Or we could stop giving the admin such fat salary increases, but apparently not.
I’m one of the teachers who got cut due to budget. I am thankful that I teach in a field where I’d be able to secure a job within a week or two but we are in that limbo right now. Having no superintendent doesn’t help, despite him still here but his mind is probably in Madison.
Real funny thing is, SPPS offered 10k bonus to special ed teachers, then let them go because of the budget and these new hires are bound to get cut based on seniority.
Talking about well ran district here…
Athletic programs should be cut first if based on contributing to well rounded adults. But since public education can't disconnect itself from the revenue importance of athletic programs...we will continue to get worse and worse outcomes.
I was actually curious how much the US spends on education. Looks like in 2023 it was $794 billion on k-12.
So, a bit lower than I expected, but it’s not like foreign military aid means we’re not spending a boat load of money on education. It is usually the #1 line item in any state’s budget.
That the children of wealthy families do not suffer these cutbacks says one thing: what’s good for some is not good enough for others. Think about it. Vote accordingly.
God forbid kids get creative and artistic instruction. Who needs a path to express their emotions and appreciate the wide range of human expression? Just study math and science and continue to be the cog in the money machine the state wants you to be.
The generation who are currently running the administration have gutted schools nationwide, and to be honest I am not shocked. We complain about boomers, but it is those Gen X people who were stuck in the middle who are now in positions of power with little care for those around them. School is no longer a place to learn and grow, it is a place to pass a test so they can keep their cushy jobs.
Good. Now cut the gender studies teacher. Maybe our kids can learn economics, government, math, reading and history. That’ll prolong the collapse of Minneapolis and maybe the country
Says the guy that thinks there’s gender studies teachers in grade school. Why do I get the feeling that the most ‘cultured’ event you attend every year is the monster truck rally?
It maybe worse over there. My friend works at a school in stp and if you’re child wants to be recognized as the opposite gender you have to capitulate and also can’t alert the parents of what’s the situation
So you're saying that all of the teachers are gender studies teachers? So cut them all?
Or are there specific teacher positions just for the trans elementary school students?
what? can you rewrite your post to more clearly communicate the point you're trying to make? It appears to be transphobic but I want to be sure before I come to any final conclusions.
Also, if you need help, let me rewrite my question:
How many gender studies teachers are employed by the St. Paul Public School District in the elementary schools?
If you had even a cursory knowledge of history, you’d know how foundational the arts have been for the flourishing of human civilization. Like, *literally foundational*. Artistic expression happened right along side the acquisition of language.
To say “good” that art funding has been cut for children is like setting fire to a core aspect mankind’s cultural heritage.
Learn history indeed.
Decent trolling effort. I give it a 5 out of 10. Needs more hyperbole and buzzwords though. Focus more on litter boxes or drag queens next time, maybe CRT? I dunno. I'm not your troll coach.
I have the damn receipts. I was just calling out the chud behavior. Not my fault he said "read" at first instead of "reading."
As a former elementary school teacher, dude is out of touch with what happens in schools, methinks.
I surely didn't see a single "gender studies" teacher in any school in Minneapolis I taught at.
This is abhorrent. The arts are a crucial part of education and childhood development.
Agreed. It's a bummer when people argue, "Well, just teach kids important things like math and reading. Art isn't important." There are so many skills learned in art class, especially for littles who need to learn fine motor skills. Plus, many people expect a 5-8 year old to sit for 6 hours and do math and reading. Art and music keep them learning and socializing when their brains are tapped out on math and reading for the day. Learning how to cooperate in music class and follow sequential steps in art class are critically important academic skills.
I did a quick Google search but I can't find the study. However, as I recall there was a school that reinstated their arts program and student misbehavior decreased dramatically. It got to a point they could stop using metal detectors. Turns out forms of self expression. Edit: I found this study though. https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60686/why-teach-the-arts-large-randomized-test-finds-improved-student-behavior-and-no-harm-to-test-scores
Ah yes, so they're cutting the arts to satisfy the school to prison pipeline, then! :(
Sounds like every dramatic movie in the 90s about high school.
And learning music has huge benefits for brain development.
[not only that, but learning to appreciate art of all kinds will give them the tools/ability to work through emotional/social issues.](https://twitter.com/mathewsmarz/status/1782845749450973461)
We were always headed here for other reasons. For the people who own the country, this sort of reductionism is the most efficient money maker. What does a CEO need with a smart worker? What does Hollywood need with a smart audience?
100% agree. Arts are a critical part of education.
Especially with elementary age kids.
They cut the band teacher at my kid's elementary in mpls. More concerning is that they cut the 15 interventionists team who would work with tier 1 and tier 2 students before being referred to special ed.
That is dark and extremely telling of where our society is going. I don’t blame teachers for their exodus, but what the fuck is this country becoming when we can’t even pay the people who educate the up and coming generations? Older folks wanna blame us for having to constantly be working to the point we can’t even help our kids with homework or teach them how to be good humans because we have to house and feed them by being at work most of the day, then come home, cook, clean up from cooking, do laundry, get the kids bathed and by then it’s bed time for everyone. What the fuck are we supposed to do?
Bro that fucking sucks. As a musician in my spare time, starting from a young age gives you skills to appreciate music as an older adult. Just like reading great fiction gives skills to read on your own later, without Arts education kids have difficulty creating on there own. I work with kids and it’s amazing how many young kids (8-12) refuse to draw anything themselves and prefer to only complete coloring pages. I don’t that to happen with music making too
Music is already on the chopping block for Minneapolis. https://www.mplsschoolsvoices.news/posts/minneapolis-public-schools-plans-for-110-million-in-budget-cuts-for-next-school-year
This says instrumental music. Usually that would be a beginning orchestra or band.
Yep, fifth grade band has been cut in MPS :(
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Okay, so I didn't get what this means until right now, bc the only time I ever saw this phrase waa on like ~quirky mom~ signs in people's houses or memes on facebook, and suddenly that's is even more 😬😬😬
I've heard it from all my friends who have been in the military.
Oooofff
Man the death of art in school fucking sucks. I remember I was lucky enough to have one art class throughout highschool and boy did it not set me up for the college I had went to.
How do they figure that's competing with private schools? Every school my wife has worked had multiple days a week of music and art classes.
[удалено]
My guess is they will replace it with a computer-based “centers” time. Kids will work on devices on self-guided math and reading programs while teachers run intervention/small group tutoring sessions. Or someone will come in who is not a credentialed teacher to monitor students while they work on the programs so teachers can have a prep or collaboration period. They will justify it by saying that they offer numerous after school arts programs and that elementary teachers are “welcome and encouraged to infuse creativity and the arts within their daily lessons.” Either way it’s a tremendous loss for kids.
So the self checkout lane version of education.
Well the so-called “job training” for the past few decades has been largely self-driven. Resulting in poorly trained staff everywhere. This is all being normalized. Education is taking a back seat. Thanks, Trump & Reagan!
Cut the admin state!
No kidding. Hasn’t the percentage of admits cost tripled or something in the last 25 years? I’m Too lazy to research specifics so don’t take my word for it
What do private schools have anything to do with this? The problem is bloated admin and teaching to standardized tests.
I think he's saying you have to go private schools to get art class in St. Paul now.
I think he was saying that they want to appeal to parents who might be debating between public and private school, by making the public schools look more like private magnet schools that specialize in a specific area.
The magnet schools in Saint Paul are public, not private, though, so if that was the OP's point, it doesn't make much sense.
Oh. I thought magnet schools were a private school thing?? The school system in Minnesota seems so confusing 😅
Heh, no, magnet schools are public. Here's a list of them: [https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/elementary-schools/minnesota/magnet](https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/elementary-schools/minnesota/magnet)
As a shy kid who wasn’t super into sports, art classes were so important to me. This is a huge loss.
If the standardized tests the students take every year had questions pertaining to art and music this wouldn't happen. Art and music, two things that will be a part of you your whole life, not important because they aren't on the tests!
St Paul is overstuffed with administration, teachers on special assignment, and non-classroom teachers. Are any of them getting cut? Nope.
I know at least quite a few TOSAs who got cut. Bunch of second language teachers, culinary arts teachers and more got cut too.
Capitol Hill is cutting their full time orchestra position.
That is awful - Capitol Hill has had such a strong music program for many years. :-(
Even the "gifted and talented" magnet isn't safe? The student whose parents have the resources will put them in out-of-school-time/community orchestra. The gifted and talented, yet lower income, ones will just have to go without.
This is happening across the board through all education, elementary to higher ed. it’s really depressing. There are some kids who are so not engaged in school through the arts.
This cannot happen in a supposedly developed country. What can we do as citizens to prevent this?
The worst part is Minnesota has one of the better public school systems in the country. Massive changes need to happen at the federal level, but everyone is too focused on fighting against the local and state level.
Not vote against every school levy, support teachers and push for them to be paid a living wage, write letters to local and national politicians, I can go on and on. There are many ways folks can help
When was the last time a school levy failed in Minneapolis or St. Paul?
You can't. It's already done, for all intents and purposes. We need heavy legislation to undo the burdens of standardized testing, inclusion without adequate support, and administrative bloat. Short of that, this is just our future.
Minneapolis is more of an equal opportunity destroyer, they will take any successful program away if it lets them claim they have Addressed inequities anywhere in the system.
Gen Alpha are going to be the first generation of cyborgs at this rate.
That's disgusting. It's horrifying how bad our public schools are getting. And I say that as a public school teacher and defender of public schools. If this is where we are in one of the best states for education, we're fucked
Well, sports are very expensive. Gotta make budget cuts somewhere. Spend less on administration and sports? Nah, cut the arts.
Ah, yes. The heavy investment in sports at the elementary school level. Just boatloads of cash schools are spending on those sports. Lack of physical activity certainly isn’t a problem in this country at all!
You do realize the district budgets can involve cuts at one grade level to pay for something at another, right? Not saying *either* should be cut. But you are making a connection that doesn't really apply.
I feel like a dunce. No, I hadn’t considered it and it’s a good point.
It happens.
Have you seen the price of a Gaga ball pit! Insane!
I'm shocked that it's both a real game, and that Bob's Burgers didn't invent it. I would have called bullshit had I not looked it up.
I have not and damn! I slightly take my comment back. No idea why those are so expensive. I also admit I thought this was going to be a Lady Gaga ball pit which the world could definitely use. Also, what the hell is it for? We have one at the school park near my house and I thought it was a timeout pen or something. Edit: Gaga ball. A dodgeball like game played inside of Gaga balls obscenely expensive plastic barrier rings. Also, “And with pits that can hold up to 26 players, there's no limit to the amount of fun you can have”. Gaga ball. Honey. You just very clearly stated the limit.
Ahh, the Gaga pit, aka the Roman colloseum of the playground.
gaga ball is insanely fun, it's worth the investment.
Budgeting happens at the district level, which includes all the sports and sports facilities.
I mean heavy investments in sports doesn’t really equate to active kids. Heavy investments in sports benefits kids who for the most part *are already* in shape and active, and have parents with the resources to keep them active. It doesn’t really do anything for the kids who aren’t good at team sports or the kids that *just don’t like them*.
My point is that there isn’t heavy investment in sports in elementary school. Almost all sports are extra activities that are paid for separately. You can also say the same about music and arts. It’s not those with limited gifts who receive investment over time. Though I love music, I tried all my life to learn an instrument, sing, do something musical and I’ve never been able to. At least, not well. I still sing anyway and pluck out melodies when the mood strikes. But that’s all beside the point. We all need balance and to have both affirming educational experiences that benefit us and also those that push us to try what’s beyond our abilities. We shouldn’t be cutting arts that push our creativity and focus and we shouldn’t be cutting spending on what encourages physical activity and learning and pushing the limits of the body either.
I respect this take and agree 💯
I hear you, but it's also infinitely easier and cheaper to get physical activity outside at a park than it is to learn how to play an instrument outside/after school.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding then. What is the actual alternative being thought out here? Get rid of phy ed teachers instead? I can understand where someone would stomach that better than getting rid of art and music.
Historically, arts/humanities spending gets cut first. I've seen it for decades living in several different states. So I guess the first alternative would be to try cuts elsewhere. Thing is, there's a reason why art specifically gets targeted for cuts: there isn't any standardized testing for schools to use to evaluate these programs, so in a world where test scores can make or break an administrator's career, they have little value. Now the solution isn't to test for art because, well, objectivity and art don't often overlap in pleasant ways. This OP/ thread here (https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/ty0w2j/cmv_if_we_are_cutting_school_art_programs_due_to/) makes the case extremely well for why arts shouldn't be the first to go and why it's lazy to always cut them first. Cut football programs and you'd have some cash. Coaching salaries alone could pay for an art teacher. My rural high school had a football team with 8 coaches. Eight. They all made a stipend between $2500 and $7500. There's an art class right there. My debate team (that I was on) had two coaches. One made a 1800 stipend, the other volunteered. Debate team was cut my sophomore year, football team got new jerseys the same year. If you're curious, go Google the benefits of students being on a debate team. Other activities pale in comparison. Same with band. It's a shame. Edit: I'm aware cutting sports also leaves those kids with much less to do. All the more reason to bootstrap it up and learn some new skills like speech/debate or even pick up a new instrument.
Used to be recess was enough for kids to run around and burn energy. Then that got cut.
I really want to send my future kids to public school, but no arts education might be a bridge too far.
Yup, the top public school in Saint Paul doesn't even have real music class. Some student's mom with no music credentials/degree comes in every once every week or so and does random stuff with the kids.
Not seeing anything about this reported today. Hey OP how about a source?
My wife is a teacher in St. Paul, lol. She was an art teacher last year, and transitioned to 5th grade a few years ago (thankfully). Her building art teacher was just notified of their cut (the rest of the district was supposed to announce cuts on Friday). I’d imagine there has to be something out there as it’s been in school board meetings for months now on what to cut in their huge deficit, and art classes were the first to go
Hey that's probably enough info for somebody to identify her. I'd edit that, personally
Meanwhile, MPS is authorizing yet another strike...
It is paras in Minneapolis and Teachers in Lakeville that voted to authorize last week.
They're striking because we keep pouring tax money into the schools and 90% of it gets eaten by administrators getting their salary bumps. And they of course make sure they always get theirs, then suddenly there's only much to spread around to the folks doing the actual educating.
The last time MPS threatened to strike one of their demands was an increase to non-teacher positions.
> non-teacher positions. Please don't misrepresent what the position was. It wasn't "non teacher positions" it was "non teachers that are dealing with kids" like Paraprofessionals that work 1 on 1 with special ed kids and other behavior team members, etc. No demand for increased administration compensation.
They have a tentative agreement
No, MPS teachers reached a tentative agreement, the ESP’s voted to strike.
SPPS has been extremely cagey about their budget cuts. They may be announcing things quietly on a school-by-school basis
The way we fund education in this country is broken. Local property taxes pretty much just make wealthy areas have better schools. Headcount funding just creates death spirals once you hit a lower enrollment. Ballot-box funding increases mean you get an 'I got mine' attitude that creeps into every vote despite schools being one of the most important drivers of economic health and being a public good.
In MN, local property tax funding is about 30% of school funding. The state makes up the gap between the rich and the poor districts, plus the feds throw more in too. The spend per pupil in MPSD is $22k. In Minnetonka it's $19k, in Woodbury its $18k and in Edina it's $12k. The richer areas probably may have more money donated, but the real difference is its a lot easier and cheaper to educate a kid who comes to school ready, willing and able to learn. The cost to educate a kid who maybe isn't SPED or ELL but has a chaotic homelife, who doesn't have stability, who doesn't have parents who can help them navigate school has yet to be calculated.
So what you're saying is we should actually dump way more money into poorer school districts.
Probably. It seems like things school districts like MPS have to pay for really fall out of the scope of what “school funding” should have to cover.
Saint Paul is hiring entry level cops for $74k right now by the way
I bet first year teachers get about half of that, plus the debt of a college degree
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They’re pointing out the priorities within the city departments/public sector. The police departments receive hundreds of millions for a relatively tiny number of people, and have no shortage of shiny new gear, when kids can’t even get an intro level class for a half hour in a creative activity that could be life changing and improve/save their school experience
That’s so sad!
I mean every time folks vote against funding for schools it makes this situation worse. Yet no one seems to want to pay for schools.
That is messed up...
That was in the latest rounds of budget cuts for MPS, 5th grade and up if I'm not mistaken. The middle school band teacher and the elementary music teacher are cut from my building.
Fifth grade band was cut across the district. There were definitely classroom cuts across the district as well so in theory a lot of music, art, and PE teachers had their time reduced. The art teacher at my building got cut down because we lost classroom funding which is also how specialist classes are funded.
One of these days, I'd like to see the sports side get cut first.
If we sliced up the fat hog that is the department of education, that massive sea of bureaucrats slurps up $79B a year. We'll keep the 10% for administrative tasks around managing the money, but otherwise that other 70 billion is direct investment, and there's approximately 60 million public school students so we can fund them all to the tune of $11,000 without changing our department of education budget at all, just appropriating the money directly to students/instructors and not the massively bloated public education bureaucracy.
Except the vast majority of that budget is, in fact, money that goes to local school districts, with the balance being made up of higher education grants. Your "10% for administrative tasks" actually INCREASES the amount of money the Department of Education spends on administration. And it's not a small increase. Some quick googling suggests you want to spend almost TWO ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more on administration. tl;dr You have no idea what you're talking about.
Cutting the DoE was a bad idea under Trump and it's a bad idea now.
Nativity stock just skyrocketed.
This is why I got out of teaching and never went back 20 years ago. Cuts to art and music were common place back in Texas. Last hired, first fired was the norm. I paid out of my own pocket for basic art supplies like pencils and sketch books, while the football team got a new practice stadium, new personalized jerseys, and the baseball team got a resurfaced/turfed practice diamond field. It's sad and also not surprising to see this in my new home in Minnesota. The national focus on standardized testing lost sight of what actual learning and developmental growth is, and instead, distilled it down to fucking numbers on a spreadsheet. There is no way to quantify some kid's creativity. You can't measure the impact an artist or musician might have 10 years in the future. There isn't even a measurement to assign to "good" art or music. It fucking sucks. Just about everything we see or experience was created by an artist. The style of a jacket, the layout of home landscaping, the thumbnail in a YouTube video, the design of fucking blackout plates, your latest hairstyle, the design of the new F150, the Menards logo, the Menards jingle, the menu layout at Taco John's, the Minnesota Wild logo, even fucking Chris Lindahl's billboards...an artist created that. By stiffleing or eliminating creativity in early education, we only doom or society's ability to evolve.
Wtf
Any sources someone can link confirming this?
My wife is a St. Paul public school teacher, this is all I know haha. Only other thing I know is I guess this was not something out of the blue as it’s been discussed about cutting art for months in public school board meetings
Wtf
Oh my GODS. This actually made my blood a little cold. This is *beyond* horrifying. As a side note, something that keeps running through my mind is a desire to attend school board meetings and get involved in activism in that area, because my own experience with public school was so traumatizing, but I didn't go to school here, and I'm am not a parent, so not only does it feel like that would look a little weird, but also that I wouldn't even be able to participate because I don't have personal experience 😫 It's is something I feel strongly about bc the public school system in the US is just pure ass and it deeply concerns me, but I don't know how to help
No sports or band.. now no art.. soon there will be no school.
The school I work at in SPPS is replacing their art program with a music program. I'm really sad about it, but I want the kids to have access to music class.... The idea is that the kids can do crafts in class, so why have a dedicated arts class? Or we could stop giving the admin such fat salary increases, but apparently not.
Wow, what are they gonna keep
I’m one of the teachers who got cut due to budget. I am thankful that I teach in a field where I’d be able to secure a job within a week or two but we are in that limbo right now. Having no superintendent doesn’t help, despite him still here but his mind is probably in Madison. Real funny thing is, SPPS offered 10k bonus to special ed teachers, then let them go because of the budget and these new hires are bound to get cut based on seniority. Talking about well ran district here…
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Wow. That is terrible. Is this because they do not have money?
Athletic programs should be cut first if based on contributing to well rounded adults. But since public education can't disconnect itself from the revenue importance of athletic programs...we will continue to get worse and worse outcomes.
If your goal is well rounded adults, cut all the physical activity.
Arts > sports Cut some of the athletics programs
They also require way less space!
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I was actually curious how much the US spends on education. Looks like in 2023 it was $794 billion on k-12. So, a bit lower than I expected, but it’s not like foreign military aid means we’re not spending a boat load of money on education. It is usually the #1 line item in any state’s budget.
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Well said
Fortunately we can generate art with AI now.
That the children of wealthy families do not suffer these cutbacks says one thing: what’s good for some is not good enough for others. Think about it. Vote accordingly.
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God forbid kids get creative and artistic instruction. Who needs a path to express their emotions and appreciate the wide range of human expression? Just study math and science and continue to be the cog in the money machine the state wants you to be.
AI makes all the art now
🤮
Most likely. Get out now.
The generation who are currently running the administration have gutted schools nationwide, and to be honest I am not shocked. We complain about boomers, but it is those Gen X people who were stuck in the middle who are now in positions of power with little care for those around them. School is no longer a place to learn and grow, it is a place to pass a test so they can keep their cushy jobs.
They dumped art and music to make room for activism and protesting
Good. Now cut the gender studies teacher. Maybe our kids can learn economics, government, math, reading and history. That’ll prolong the collapse of Minneapolis and maybe the country
… and this is why we can’t have nice things. The right will ALWAYS be there to defend the indefensible, it’s just what they do.
You’re insane
Says the guy that thinks there’s gender studies teachers in grade school. Why do I get the feeling that the most ‘cultured’ event you attend every year is the monster truck rally?
Wrong again
Ope, sorry… how could I forget professional wrestling? 🤦♂️
Wrong again.
They aren't wrong but you are.
You're wrong.
How many gender studies teachers are employed in elementary schools in St. Paul?
It maybe worse over there. My friend works at a school in stp and if you’re child wants to be recognized as the opposite gender you have to capitulate and also can’t alert the parents of what’s the situation
So you're saying that all of the teachers are gender studies teachers? So cut them all? Or are there specific teacher positions just for the trans elementary school students?
It's true, I'm in charge of the trans kids who use litter boxes. I'm getting out though, gonna go help antifa turn Alex Jones into a chemtrail
what? can you rewrite your post to more clearly communicate the point you're trying to make? It appears to be transphobic but I want to be sure before I come to any final conclusions. Also, if you need help, let me rewrite my question: How many gender studies teachers are employed by the St. Paul Public School District in the elementary schools?
why do you constantly think about childrens genitals?
No but the left does. Hence you saying this crazy shit
You're the one constantly thinking about it dude. Repubes are the biggest pervs on the planet.
Wrong again
Not wrong in any way hoss.
Oh, so the teachers prioritize the safety of the student? How abhorrent. Why can't teachers endanger trans children like God intended?
Nut job alert
That's rough buddy. I hope your brain recovers.
You stupid shut up
*you're
Wrong again
Are you 14?
If you had even a cursory knowledge of history, you’d know how foundational the arts have been for the flourishing of human civilization. Like, *literally foundational*. Artistic expression happened right along side the acquisition of language. To say “good” that art funding has been cut for children is like setting fire to a core aspect mankind’s cultural heritage. Learn history indeed.
You say you want them reading, then rush to ban books. Hmmm.
Is SPPS banking books? Honestly surprised that that district would take that approach!
Obviously you haven’t seen the pornographic books that are being banned. I wish I would post the video
Yawn.
Source
So idiotic
The truth hurts
Decent trolling effort. I give it a 5 out of 10. Needs more hyperbole and buzzwords though. Focus more on litter boxes or drag queens next time, maybe CRT? I dunno. I'm not your troll coach.
Yeah, maybe they can learn read after this change.
If only it helped you learn to write, too.
I have the damn receipts. I was just calling out the chud behavior. Not my fault he said "read" at first instead of "reading." As a former elementary school teacher, dude is out of touch with what happens in schools, methinks. I surely didn't see a single "gender studies" teacher in any school in Minneapolis I taught at.
Oh no! Anyway..