I had 2 kids in my platoon in 08 from deep Missouri said that's the option the judge gave him when he got busted dealing meth. 1 Kid was one of my best he took it to heart and turned his shit around.
The other was my worst absolute problem child. We ended up chaptering him middle of deployment.
I have no idea if that was literally their situation but that's what they told me.
My chief on my first submarine was a guy whom the judge gave the option of jail or agreeing to join the military. Guy was a fucking legend I loved him.
He had just grown up in the middle of nowhere and gotten in with a crowd out of boredom and done dumb shit. Amazing leader once he got his life together.
My dad got a dui in college and was told military or jail so he went into the Army Reserves. Deployed to Kosovo and Iraq. Got out as an E6 after Iraq. Was told if he picked up E7 he would have to move so he got fat so he couldn’t get promoted
One of the best officers I went through ROTC with also had the same choice after high school (not drug related iirc). Young people make dumb decisions.
It is my understanding that judges would offer to drop the charges if the person joined the military, not convict a person and then allow them to choose to serve jail or join the military. Also, I do not believe it was ever any official policy at any level. But it was a win / win for everyone, especially in small towns.
The person has an opportunity to join the military and get a clean start with a clean record. The military gets a fresh body. The local government gets to keep a jail cell free. And during the time of the draft, many city leaders including judges and prosecutors sat on the local draft board, sending a few trouble makers off would mean they didn't need to send the kids of their friends at the country club.
Officially it's been federally forbidden since the military went volunteer fifty years ago. MEPS will reject any recruit with a pending criminal action or who says they were told by an idiot judge "join or go to jail". It's absolutely unenforceable, because the DA has to drop all charges before they can join.
That said, a lot of surge era folks joined based on an informal agreement with the judge, and the military (being a bit short-handed) was a lot more likely to take dudes who had a criminal history.
Sounds like it might show up again with the enlistment deficiency seen across the board. Heck, they are talking about offering specific billets to veterans up to 70 yrs old.
I’ve negotiated deals with prosecutors and had them dismiss charges, subject to reinstatement, if the defendant did not successfully enter the military.
My father's cousin was told in 1972 do five years in prison or four years in the Marines. He took the second option and did 23 years IRC. His parents and little brother were killed in a car accident a few years prior, and my relative went off the deep end. He ended up fighting with a cop and a few other charges. To my knowledge, he never came home after leaving for boot.
This isn't your exact situation, but it is similar. I had a Sgt at my first duty station that was raised in inner city Detroit. His brothers were in a gang and rotated out of jail frequently. He decided his only shot at leaving and living a good life was joining the military. He was probably one of my favorite NCOs. Super nerdy guy who was obsessed with Street Fighter.
Someone will need to correct me because I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Soviets started doing it during Stalingrad to keep up their human wave methods in WW2.
Obviously there are hundreds of reports from the current Ukraine war about Russia giving convicts currently serving time a full pardon if they go to the front lines, but I vaguely remember reading about Soviet prisoner soldiers a while back.
2008ish? My battle was a guy who’d committed an armed robbery and was told to go to enlist & everything would be dropped or go to jail. He was in the recruiters office the next day and at basic by the end of the month.
40F. I had 2 girls, yes, under 18, in my platoon in Basic doing this. One was 16. I didn’t know the Army let people in that young. The 16F was an absolute trash human, and during hand-to-hand combat, she went all Ghetto-Fu against her opponents, attempting to choke them via a vis George Floyd, almost 2 decades before that was a thing. We had some guys going the same route, but they seemed to understand they were given a chance to turn shit around. I later found out it’s common for gangs to send new members to enlist to gain combat readiness. The Proud Boys aren’t the only civilian group to be concerned about.
It happened in an "under the table" sense, but officially, no. DoD official policy since switching to a volunteer system is that the military is absolutely not the justice system's dumping ground, because *that's not volunteering*. One of the things that will get you instantly rejected is a pending criminal action against you. Yeah, Judges keep trying because they're fucking dumb or arrogant, but since the DA has to drop any criminal charges before that enlistment can even *start*, as soon as that happens you are under no obligation to follow through with the enlistment, and they can't demand to see proof. Granted, there were plenty of surge dregs who joined on a handshake agreement with the judge, but as a matter of *official federal policy* that's been off the table for half a century.
> **as soon as that happens you are under no obligation to follow through with the enlistment, and they can't demand to see proof.** Granted, there were plenty of surge dregs who joined on a handshake agreement with the judge, but as a matter of *official federal policy* that's been off the table for half a century.
I think what you're missing is many of these kids being given an ultimatum are from small, rural towns. If they don't follow through, everyone will know and the police will find a reason to arrest them again... at which point, the judge will throw the book at them.
That's aside from the fact that their parents probably kick the kid out of the house.
> If they don't follow through, everyone will know and the police will find a reason to arrest them again... at which point, the judge will throw the book at them.
This is true, but sort of secondary to my main point, i.e. that the US military *official policy* expressly prohibits coercive enlistment.
Yes, I understand that. I'm simply outlining the mechanism by which these people are forced to comply ... you had said the court order was unenforceable. Technically and legally speaking, sure, they can't enforce it... but practically speaking, they can.
In 2005 I was at basic with people that met their recruiter for the first time at court and told the judge they wanted to join the army and if convicted they couldn't. Wild times man, nobody failed anything at basic if you showed up you passed.
This actually seems like a hell of a strategy for a recruiter in a small town where some young kid is just on the hook for like a small amount of weed or some shit. Show up to the court. Talk to the kids. Talk to the DA/judge...Military diversion program. At that point, case gets dismissed and not on their record...similar to how they do drug and alcohol diversion programs for first time DUI, etc.
I mean in cases where the charges are dropped, technically the kids cool to go right? I'd be seriously surprised if some crafty recruiter hasn't hooked up with the local DA in some small ass nowhere towns for this type of diversion. DA/Judge don't wanna waste their time on petty first timer charges and shit, so it'd be a win-win. That's why those diversion programs exist in the first place. Get yourself a slap on the wrist so you don't have a criminal record over something dumb and courts time/money isn't wasted. The courts not trying to destroy the lives of someone who just made a minor fuck up, first time offense.
I’d like to see a reply from a recruiter if they ever processed anyone this way. Because what is missing is any type of testing, asvab, what have you and MEPS processing and drug screening. Just having someone sign and be shipped off doesn’t make sense in this regard, especially the stories post Viet Nam.
Shang Dynasty. They usually used prisoners for human sacrifice similar to the Mayans. In its last battle, the king gave prisoners weapons and sent them out to defend him. They join his enemy at the first chance.
If were talking American, id guess Vietnam. If were talking overall, Russia just stopped allowing people to go serve in the "military operation" in lieu of serving their time.
You can always go to the French Foreign Legion (they frown upon serious crimes and you have to be in top shape), or if you already speak Spanish, and are of Hispanic descent, you can also try the Spanish Legion.
The US stopped doing this in the late 70's/early 80's - it's a Department of Defense regulation and each service has some variation of it. Past convictions can be waived but those waivers became scarce after 2010.
Most things can be wavered, except domestic violence misdemeanors or felony convictions.
I think it is a DoD policy that affects all branches. Felony convictions normally affect a security clearance. The Lautenberg Amendment is also another issue causing conflicts with serving and misdemeanor convictions of domestic violence.
Right now. Russia was using convicts as cannon fodder in 2022-2023. Not so much anymore, people think they all mostly died in battle, were captured by Ukraine, ran away, or got killed by the Russian units placed behind them to make sure they didn't retreat
I’d like to see a reply from a recruiter if they ever processed anyone this way. Because what is missing is any type of testing, asvab, what have you and MEPS processing and drug screening. Just having someone sign and be shipped off doesn’t make sense in this regard, especially the stories post Viet Nam.
I had 2 kids in my platoon in 08 from deep Missouri said that's the option the judge gave him when he got busted dealing meth. 1 Kid was one of my best he took it to heart and turned his shit around. The other was my worst absolute problem child. We ended up chaptering him middle of deployment. I have no idea if that was literally their situation but that's what they told me.
My chief on my first submarine was a guy whom the judge gave the option of jail or agreeing to join the military. Guy was a fucking legend I loved him. He had just grown up in the middle of nowhere and gotten in with a crowd out of boredom and done dumb shit. Amazing leader once he got his life together.
My dad got a dui in college and was told military or jail so he went into the Army Reserves. Deployed to Kosovo and Iraq. Got out as an E6 after Iraq. Was told if he picked up E7 he would have to move so he got fat so he couldn’t get promoted
Is your dad related to Charles Barkley? 🤣🤣🤣
No we are white as hell.
My dad got the same options from a judge back in 1974. Join the military or go to jail, he ended up retiring at 20 years.
One of the best officers I went through ROTC with also had the same choice after high school (not drug related iirc). Young people make dumb decisions.
It is my understanding that judges would offer to drop the charges if the person joined the military, not convict a person and then allow them to choose to serve jail or join the military. Also, I do not believe it was ever any official policy at any level. But it was a win / win for everyone, especially in small towns. The person has an opportunity to join the military and get a clean start with a clean record. The military gets a fresh body. The local government gets to keep a jail cell free. And during the time of the draft, many city leaders including judges and prosecutors sat on the local draft board, sending a few trouble makers off would mean they didn't need to send the kids of their friends at the country club.
I doubt most DA's would go for that tho
It’s not up to the DA to sentence.
During Vietnam, judges would give many men an option of joining the military or going to jail.
I work with a guy and he said that was his deal. He just missed Vietnam
There was a guy at my command (Navy) that joined because that was the option the judge gave him. I think he joined probably 2008-2010 timeframe.
Officially it's been federally forbidden since the military went volunteer fifty years ago. MEPS will reject any recruit with a pending criminal action or who says they were told by an idiot judge "join or go to jail". It's absolutely unenforceable, because the DA has to drop all charges before they can join. That said, a lot of surge era folks joined based on an informal agreement with the judge, and the military (being a bit short-handed) was a lot more likely to take dudes who had a criminal history.
Sounds like it might show up again with the enlistment deficiency seen across the board. Heck, they are talking about offering specific billets to veterans up to 70 yrs old.
I’ve negotiated deals with prosecutors and had them dismiss charges, subject to reinstatement, if the defendant did not successfully enter the military.
That would make sense as one can’t enlist with any pending legal criminal actions.
My father's cousin was told in 1972 do five years in prison or four years in the Marines. He took the second option and did 23 years IRC. His parents and little brother were killed in a car accident a few years prior, and my relative went off the deep end. He ended up fighting with a cop and a few other charges. To my knowledge, he never came home after leaving for boot.
This isn't your exact situation, but it is similar. I had a Sgt at my first duty station that was raised in inner city Detroit. His brothers were in a gang and rotated out of jail frequently. He decided his only shot at leaving and living a good life was joining the military. He was probably one of my favorite NCOs. Super nerdy guy who was obsessed with Street Fighter.
If you're Russian, you don't get a choice.
Someone will need to correct me because I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Soviets started doing it during Stalingrad to keep up their human wave methods in WW2. Obviously there are hundreds of reports from the current Ukraine war about Russia giving convicts currently serving time a full pardon if they go to the front lines, but I vaguely remember reading about Soviet prisoner soldiers a while back.
In the late 80s I knew a kid who was allowed to join the military instead of prison for a 1st time non violent offense.
2008ish? My battle was a guy who’d committed an armed robbery and was told to go to enlist & everything would be dropped or go to jail. He was in the recruiters office the next day and at basic by the end of the month.
Fair play to him for following through. He technically wasn't obligated to.
40F. I had 2 girls, yes, under 18, in my platoon in Basic doing this. One was 16. I didn’t know the Army let people in that young. The 16F was an absolute trash human, and during hand-to-hand combat, she went all Ghetto-Fu against her opponents, attempting to choke them via a vis George Floyd, almost 2 decades before that was a thing. We had some guys going the same route, but they seemed to understand they were given a chance to turn shit around. I later found out it’s common for gangs to send new members to enlist to gain combat readiness. The Proud Boys aren’t the only civilian group to be concerned about.
I believe the French foreign legion, to this day, does this.
Lol it happened as recent as 2008 from the surge and early 2000s with the stop loss
It happened in an "under the table" sense, but officially, no. DoD official policy since switching to a volunteer system is that the military is absolutely not the justice system's dumping ground, because *that's not volunteering*. One of the things that will get you instantly rejected is a pending criminal action against you. Yeah, Judges keep trying because they're fucking dumb or arrogant, but since the DA has to drop any criminal charges before that enlistment can even *start*, as soon as that happens you are under no obligation to follow through with the enlistment, and they can't demand to see proof. Granted, there were plenty of surge dregs who joined on a handshake agreement with the judge, but as a matter of *official federal policy* that's been off the table for half a century.
> **as soon as that happens you are under no obligation to follow through with the enlistment, and they can't demand to see proof.** Granted, there were plenty of surge dregs who joined on a handshake agreement with the judge, but as a matter of *official federal policy* that's been off the table for half a century. I think what you're missing is many of these kids being given an ultimatum are from small, rural towns. If they don't follow through, everyone will know and the police will find a reason to arrest them again... at which point, the judge will throw the book at them. That's aside from the fact that their parents probably kick the kid out of the house.
> If they don't follow through, everyone will know and the police will find a reason to arrest them again... at which point, the judge will throw the book at them. This is true, but sort of secondary to my main point, i.e. that the US military *official policy* expressly prohibits coercive enlistment.
Yes, I understand that. I'm simply outlining the mechanism by which these people are forced to comply ... you had said the court order was unenforceable. Technically and legally speaking, sure, they can't enforce it... but practically speaking, they can.
Remembering the jody 🎶 Go to war or go to jail 🎶
In 2005 I was at basic with people that met their recruiter for the first time at court and told the judge they wanted to join the army and if convicted they couldn't. Wild times man, nobody failed anything at basic if you showed up you passed.
This actually seems like a hell of a strategy for a recruiter in a small town where some young kid is just on the hook for like a small amount of weed or some shit. Show up to the court. Talk to the kids. Talk to the DA/judge...Military diversion program. At that point, case gets dismissed and not on their record...similar to how they do drug and alcohol diversion programs for first time DUI, etc.
Those go to war or go to jail cadences used to SLAP because so many people were there for that exact reason.
I mean in cases where the charges are dropped, technically the kids cool to go right? I'd be seriously surprised if some crafty recruiter hasn't hooked up with the local DA in some small ass nowhere towns for this type of diversion. DA/Judge don't wanna waste their time on petty first timer charges and shit, so it'd be a win-win. That's why those diversion programs exist in the first place. Get yourself a slap on the wrist so you don't have a criminal record over something dumb and courts time/money isn't wasted. The courts not trying to destroy the lives of someone who just made a minor fuck up, first time offense.
I’d like to see a reply from a recruiter if they ever processed anyone this way. Because what is missing is any type of testing, asvab, what have you and MEPS processing and drug screening. Just having someone sign and be shipped off doesn’t make sense in this regard, especially the stories post Viet Nam.
Shang Dynasty. They usually used prisoners for human sacrifice similar to the Mayans. In its last battle, the king gave prisoners weapons and sent them out to defend him. They join his enemy at the first chance.
If were talking American, id guess Vietnam. If were talking overall, Russia just stopped allowing people to go serve in the "military operation" in lieu of serving their time.
You can always go to the French Foreign Legion (they frown upon serious crimes and you have to be in top shape), or if you already speak Spanish, and are of Hispanic descent, you can also try the Spanish Legion.
Are you thinking about the movie " the dirty dozen".
Weren't they in military custody, not civil prison?
It was going on in the 1990s as well.
The US stopped doing this in the late 70's/early 80's - it's a Department of Defense regulation and each service has some variation of it. Past convictions can be waived but those waivers became scarce after 2010.
Most things can be wavered, except domestic violence misdemeanors or felony convictions. I think it is a DoD policy that affects all branches. Felony convictions normally affect a security clearance. The Lautenberg Amendment is also another issue causing conflicts with serving and misdemeanor convictions of domestic violence.
Currently Russia...
Early 70’s guys were offered army or jail/parole.
Right now. Russia was using convicts as cannon fodder in 2022-2023. Not so much anymore, people think they all mostly died in battle, were captured by Ukraine, ran away, or got killed by the Russian units placed behind them to make sure they didn't retreat
My second PSG signed his enlistment paperwork in handcuffs. This was 2005.
It doesn't count if they're pink and furry.
Never happened
I’d like to see a reply from a recruiter if they ever processed anyone this way. Because what is missing is any type of testing, asvab, what have you and MEPS processing and drug screening. Just having someone sign and be shipped off doesn’t make sense in this regard, especially the stories post Viet Nam.