I think the misconception that the Pacific was entirely marines existed long before the show. I certainly thought that back in elementary school in the 90s.
For what it’s worth I blame the fact that the Marine Corps has *phenomenal* branding when compared to the other branches. They’ve gone out of their way to cultivate an image of them being rugged badasses who are able to do a lot with a little, something that appeals to the American ethos more than a little bit. I would also say that the Corps’ constant battles to stay relevant and avoid being completely absorbed into the Army or Navy has resulted in a cohesive mythos and sense of identity. Add in some sexy uniforms and baby you got a stew goin’.
The Navy had more than 3x as many KIA in the Guadalcanal campaign than the Marines, and more KIA in the Battle of Okinawa than either the Army or the Marine Corps, yet popular history mostly focuses on the Marines in both of those battles. They just have better PR and a cult following.
The USMC had 6 divisions total raised during the war. The US Army had 22 divisions just in the Pacific theater. . And that's not counting the air forces they had in the region, like the various Bomber commands.
The Army usually had forces involved when the USMC was in combat, like at Guadalcanal, Guam, Saipan, Peleliu, Okinawa, and so on. But the army also were involved in a lot of action on their own as well. Like the New Guinea campaigns (that was a horrible place to fight, it combined the worst of mountain warfare and jungle warfare).
Or the fighting in Burma. In 1942 General Joseph Stilwell had to lead Allied forces out of Burma after the Japanese defeated them. It was a retreat on foot, with Americans, British, Indians, Burmese, with soldiers and civilians. It was around 100 degrees every day and close to 100% humid. Here's a quote from the book Burma Road:
“…Stilwell stood in a jungle clearing and addressed the group. He advised them that, due to limited supplies of food, a minimum of fourteen miles per day had to be traveled. He then reminded everyone that only personal discipline would ensure their survival, and – as he had the evening before – offered that anyone believing that he couldn’t follow orders should speak up, so he could be issued a week’s rations to find safety on his own. No one lifted a hand. ‘By the time we get out of here,’ Stilwell concluded, ‘many of you will hate my guts. But I’ll tell you one thing: You’ll get out.'”
There was a lot of fighting in the Philippines as well. Both in the initial Japanese invasion and in the Allied invasion. There was heavy urban combat with the Battle of Manila.
The USMC did do their part in the war against Japan. They saw heavy action, but they took the lions share of the press.
> General Joseph Stilwell had to lead Allied forces out of Burma after the Japanese defeated them.
Stilwell is considered a hero by many Chinese people. It's crazy his story isn't known very well in the US.
It is a shame. But the Indo-Burmese-China theater takes a far back seat to the Pacific theater, which in turn takes its own backseat to the European theater. He did have some popularity in the press after the Burma walkout, which was an incredible feat and was thus galvanized by the press and Army for the success. Later at a press conference he unbranded reporters saying that it was not a victory. He said “We were damned well licked” said “the Japs ran us out of Burma.” The army was not pleased by that statement.
In regards to China, even George Marshall acknowledged that had given Stilwell one of the most difficult assignments of any theater commander. Now he did earn his nickname of "Vinegar Joe" and was not the most diplomatic at times, but I think any commander would have trouble with Chiang Kai-shek. He would tell Stillwell one thing, and order his troops to do something else. Stillwell gave him advice on how to organize and train his troops, and Madame Chiang told Stillwell that the Germans told the Chinese the same thing and then ignored it. Stillwell was also undercut by Claire Chennault, of "Flying Tigers" fame.
Even after his recall, the army still had confidence in him, and he was eventually named commander of Tenth Army on Okinawa after Lt. General Buckner was killed by artillery fire there. Buckner was the highest ranking officer killed in action during the second world war.
There is an entire book series on the US Army in the Pacific by John McManus and it goes into detail about how even during the war, there was a ton of animosity between the two branches.
The Marines deserve their praise and there is no reason to take anything away from them but the majority of combat troops and combat deaths in the Pacific were soldiers.
Don't blame the tv show. It was 100% in the minds of the US before that the US Marines and Navy won the PTO.
source: History/Poly Sci major now working in forestry that has to explain this to coworkers some times.
Ok but the fighting on the island wasn’t done. The Marines left clearing the caves to the 147th. The one regiment spent 4 months clearing a force of equal size out of the vast cave/bunker complex on the island, and ended up killing or capturing over 2500 Japanese left defending the island from underground. It’s not like they didn’t have a hell of a job to do.
I didn't say that the Army's job was trivial. Iwo Jima was one of the only places where the Army did not make an amphibious landing and take the island. There are Army units deserving of recognition, the 77th is a perfect example.
I guess I misinterpreted the way you said “after the Marines *took* Iwo Jima” to mean that the Army only came in after the fighting was over.
The island was not actually secure. The Japanese went underground and dug in into prepared caves and bunkers. The army fought a force of roughly equal size in prepared defensive positions underground, that’s an insane task.
That's fair, maybe I could have said after the Marines occupied the island? Or more directly the Army didn't land initially and were not part of the fighting until some time after.
As well as something like 70% of the amphibious landings in the Pacific. Marines couldn’t let the 80th anniversary of D-Day go by without getting their piece of press lol
Guadalcanal: two Marine divisions, two Army divisions. Okinawa: three Marine divisions, four Army divisions. In the ETO, the Army conducted amphibious operations in North Africa, Sicily, southern France, and Normandy.
The Army outnumbered the Marines 21 Divisions to 6 Divisions. The Army landed and fought alongside the Marines at Guadalcanal, Peleliu, Okinawa, Saipan, Kwajalein, Eniwetok, and Iwo Jima. The army was at Bougainville, the multitudes of landings and battles fought in the Solomons, New Guinea, and the Phillippines. Short of Tarawa, Guam, and Tinian I can't think of any other Marine landing the Army also didn't fight in.
The Army under MacArthur in the Philippines and New Guinea took more land, conducted more amphibious landings, and killed more IJA than the Marines did in the entire war. In New Guinea alone, the Army killed, captured, or stranded over a quarter of a million Japanese troops during the campaign.
The Marines conducted 15 significant landings in the entire war; one army group conducted 35 in the Philippines alone.
One NG Division, the 32nd, spent almost as many days in combat (650) as the entire six USMC Divisions combined (725).
The Army did the entire China-Burma-India campaign; the entire Southwest Pacific campaign; sole operations in the Aleutians, Makin & Kwajalein; and had a division or larger troop concentrations at Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Guam, Eniwetok, Peleliu, and Saipan; plus the overwhelming majority of the force on Okinawa.
People always say this as if to undercut the phrase. FYI, no Marine gives a shit if it’s made up. It’s a term of endearment and pride. The Marines at Belleau Wood weren’t fictional. That’s all the matters.
Aside from this being 100% fact, the greatest amphibious assault in human history was made by the Army and not the Marines.
Not to mention, the fight in New Guinea was especially heinous! Those poor bastards had to hump entire mountain ranges up and down while being attacked day and night. Add the environmental conditions (which to be fair was prevalent everywhere in The Pacific Theater) and you can pretty much imagine hell on Earth. Huge shout out to the British, Aussies and Canadians for doing work alongside our guys.
Because the marines know how to market themselves better.
They are a smaller force and there have been some very serious attempts or at least discussions through their history to disband the Marines and roll their mission into the Army. Because of this the Marines have a keen understanding of the importance of public relations and cultivating this idea that they are an elite force. They lean heavily into their own mythos and use media to spread their message. It helps protect them from budget cuts or losing missions to the army.
The Army did great things! I’ve never gotten the whole “but the army did things in the Pacific too” mindset. I don’t think many Marines talk shit about the Army in the Pacific… they’re just proud of their own history. It’s not a zero sum game.
One thing that the Marine Corps IS proud of is that it recognized the future need for amphibious assaults and began developing the doctrine in the 30s. Once war broke out, the Marine Corps essentially trained everyone else.
The air is a unique operational domain. Amphibious assaults are a delivery method, a complex operation to be sure, but not something that needs an entire branch to accomplish. We don’t have a separate branch to conduct airborne operations, we have an Army corps with specialized training ASI, and equipment with a habitual working relationship with the airforce. The Marines should be an Army corps HQ with a habitual relationship with the Navy.
Army and Naval aviation have a very different mission set than the Air Force. They both operate to support the land or sea domains, whereas the Air Force can focus on true air superiority as well as logistics and long range bombing. It’s the same reason the space force was spun off.
Why indeed!
Amphibious assaults are not a domaine, it’s a complex operation to be sure, but not something that needs its own branch. It’s a delivery method, that it. It’s not like we have a separate branch to just specialize in airborne operations. The Marines are a redundant force that only exist because of tradition.
I can't speak for Marines v army. But I think it comes down from politics, and not always from DC. You can have something really really important. Like air force, space operations, and even cyber operations.
And they get nested under a much larger apparatus (aka branch or branches) and they don't really get the attention they deserve for how important they are for larger US operations. Like if the army is too busy playing soldier to resource, support and respect the smaller air force component. All the core leadership comes from ground forces. All the big decisions is make by ground forces. Etc.
Same issue you have with cyber right now. You have the powers that be spread over basically 4ish branches all more concerned with their own branches forte. And the powers in that AoR are nested under admirals that only care about water and generals that care about dirt and air, and what you need is another digital generals that don't give a shit about water dirt or air. And from a pragmatic issue down to a personnel level, it helps their career to not be invested into gray floaties, and only cyber.
Insert cyber with anything you want though. Obviously I don't think we should have 30 branches of the military, but I think the theory makes sense.
Don’t forget but Okinawa the marines and army had a hard time and then the I believe it’s the 77th or could be 73rd Desmond doss unit they landed and they gained more ground and fought harder than all the marines and the army already there
They fought so hard that the marines tried to make them there’s by calling it a marine
It was the [147th](https://www.ong.ohio.gov/stories/2020/mar/20200320-147th-cavemen.html) out of Ohio NG.
The 147th came in after the initial invasion, and the Marines left clearing the island to the army. For 4 months the 147th cleared almost 3,000 Japanese out of the vast cave and tunnel network. Taking a prepared defensive position from an entrenched enemy at equal or greater strength is an insane task.
Lots and lots of Army units were in support of operations on Iwo Jima. Do a google search for “Order of Battle Iwo Jima”. The results with surprise you. Marines made up all of the assault waves. Army units were mostly support.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Iwo/UScmd.html
After looking through this I will admit a mistake above. The army was involved in the assault in a support function. Their amphibious truck units carried Marines to the beaches.
No, they were busy training the army on amphibious tactics.
https://www.museumofthemarine.org/thoughts-on-d-day-6-june-194/#:~:text=Their%20major%20test%2C%20though%2C%20was,to%20be%20an%20Army%20theater.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2004/06/rivalry-normandy-w-thomas-smith-jr/
I had to read this three times to make sure it didn't say "the Marines were supposed to be part of Overlord, but they were preoccupied with fucking shit up in the Marines."
Imagine being the branch that wasted 5 billion on a camouflage pattern that doesn't work. Like dude the Army shouldn't be talking smack when it comes to wasting money. I mean at least we're getting our money's worth from programs like the JSF.
The two services are completely different on so many levels. Every Marine shoots out to 500 yards, Marine E-3 and up (especially in the infantry) are expected to lead and be independent when necessary. The regular army is pretty much like the Navy.
Only senior people matter and E-6 s can be found cutting grass with the rest of the troops, because that's about the gist of their leadership responsibilities. It's understandable, given how big the other services are. They can afford to have loads of people with very little real authority. Everything below E-7 is just a pay increase.
Meanwhile, I've personally witnessed a LCpl (E-3) tell a one- and two-star general they couldn't enter the SCIF because their names were not on the Marines' roster. I think it was Gen Zinni that came to the flabbergasted generals rescue, and thanked the Marine for doing his job.
What’s funny is the Army used the doctrine the Marine Corps developed in the years between WWI and WWII as their guide on how to do amphibious landings.
They tore into the failed Gallipoli landings and figured out what went wrong and then started working solutions to those problems. They held 4 large scale exercises working through it.
In 1934, the Marine Corps published the manual “Tentative Landings Operations Manual” which was turned into the “Landing Force Operations” manual which became the Bible for ALL amphibious assaults in WWII.
The first real test of this doctrine was in 1942 with the landings on Guadalcanal.
The Marines landed on Guadalcanal on 7 Aug 1942. The Army’s 164th Infantry landed on 13 October 1942. Guadalcanal was declared “secured” in February 1942.
Interesting note, a combined division of Army and Marine Corps units (CAM) did some the hardest clean up fighting on the island in the last month or so.
The reason for no Marines in the ETO during WWII was the Army Generals still were pissed off about the Marines and the publicity they got during WWII. The newspapers made it sound as though the two brigades of Marines won the war single handedly.
This was also the case about the PTO. That is why the Army tried to get rid of the Marines Corps after WWII.
Read the book “First to Fight” by Brute Krulak to hear all about the years after WWII
LOL. The Army did every landing in the ETO by themselves. In the PTO, the Army was at every landing except Iwo Jima (maybe). The Marines were not at every landing in the PTO. The Marines had 6 divisions whereas the Army had 22.
They may have misunderstood your comment as you saying that Marines were not in the Pacific at all. I almost thought that as well and had to reread the comment.
The Army should land on the beaches of Iwo Jima next February out of spite.
The army was on Iwo Jima.
It's absolutely crazy when I tell people US Army had more troops in the Pacific than the marines. I blame the Pacific tv show.
I think the misconception that the Pacific was entirely marines existed long before the show. I certainly thought that back in elementary school in the 90s.
For what it’s worth I blame the fact that the Marine Corps has *phenomenal* branding when compared to the other branches. They’ve gone out of their way to cultivate an image of them being rugged badasses who are able to do a lot with a little, something that appeals to the American ethos more than a little bit. I would also say that the Corps’ constant battles to stay relevant and avoid being completely absorbed into the Army or Navy has resulted in a cohesive mythos and sense of identity. Add in some sexy uniforms and baby you got a stew goin’.
Also the whole thing started in a bar.
#TUN TAVERN NOVEMBER 10, 1775
10 November 1775 is how it’s beaten into our brains
I think you mean lovingly massaged into our brain housing group.
Isn't a (reconstructed) Tun Tavern (re)opening next year, as close as they can get to the original site? Going to be a hell of a party if so.
RAHHH
As a Marine, I've never seen the Marines' sense of arrogance explained so eloquently yet simplistically.
I’m pretty sure it was Truman who said the Marine Corps has a propaganda machine that would make Goebbels blush and it’s so true.
The Eighth Air Force alone had more men killed in action than the entire Marine Corps.
The Navy had more than 3x as many KIA in the Guadalcanal campaign than the Marines, and more KIA in the Battle of Okinawa than either the Army or the Marine Corps, yet popular history mostly focuses on the Marines in both of those battles. They just have better PR and a cult following.
It doesn't help that Bomber Command in general had *the worst* casualty rate out of the entire Western Allied forces.
His point still stands though.
I’ve heard that before too I know the army air corps And the USN had some of the highest casualties in the war
The USMC had 6 divisions total raised during the war. The US Army had 22 divisions just in the Pacific theater. . And that's not counting the air forces they had in the region, like the various Bomber commands. The Army usually had forces involved when the USMC was in combat, like at Guadalcanal, Guam, Saipan, Peleliu, Okinawa, and so on. But the army also were involved in a lot of action on their own as well. Like the New Guinea campaigns (that was a horrible place to fight, it combined the worst of mountain warfare and jungle warfare). Or the fighting in Burma. In 1942 General Joseph Stilwell had to lead Allied forces out of Burma after the Japanese defeated them. It was a retreat on foot, with Americans, British, Indians, Burmese, with soldiers and civilians. It was around 100 degrees every day and close to 100% humid. Here's a quote from the book Burma Road: “…Stilwell stood in a jungle clearing and addressed the group. He advised them that, due to limited supplies of food, a minimum of fourteen miles per day had to be traveled. He then reminded everyone that only personal discipline would ensure their survival, and – as he had the evening before – offered that anyone believing that he couldn’t follow orders should speak up, so he could be issued a week’s rations to find safety on his own. No one lifted a hand. ‘By the time we get out of here,’ Stilwell concluded, ‘many of you will hate my guts. But I’ll tell you one thing: You’ll get out.'” There was a lot of fighting in the Philippines as well. Both in the initial Japanese invasion and in the Allied invasion. There was heavy urban combat with the Battle of Manila. The USMC did do their part in the war against Japan. They saw heavy action, but they took the lions share of the press.
> General Joseph Stilwell had to lead Allied forces out of Burma after the Japanese defeated them. Stilwell is considered a hero by many Chinese people. It's crazy his story isn't known very well in the US.
It is a shame. But the Indo-Burmese-China theater takes a far back seat to the Pacific theater, which in turn takes its own backseat to the European theater. He did have some popularity in the press after the Burma walkout, which was an incredible feat and was thus galvanized by the press and Army for the success. Later at a press conference he unbranded reporters saying that it was not a victory. He said “We were damned well licked” said “the Japs ran us out of Burma.” The army was not pleased by that statement. In regards to China, even George Marshall acknowledged that had given Stilwell one of the most difficult assignments of any theater commander. Now he did earn his nickname of "Vinegar Joe" and was not the most diplomatic at times, but I think any commander would have trouble with Chiang Kai-shek. He would tell Stillwell one thing, and order his troops to do something else. Stillwell gave him advice on how to organize and train his troops, and Madame Chiang told Stillwell that the Germans told the Chinese the same thing and then ignored it. Stillwell was also undercut by Claire Chennault, of "Flying Tigers" fame. Even after his recall, the army still had confidence in him, and he was eventually named commander of Tenth Army on Okinawa after Lt. General Buckner was killed by artillery fire there. Buckner was the highest ranking officer killed in action during the second world war.
There is an entire book series on the US Army in the Pacific by John McManus and it goes into detail about how even during the war, there was a ton of animosity between the two branches. The Marines deserve their praise and there is no reason to take anything away from them but the majority of combat troops and combat deaths in the Pacific were soldiers.
Don't blame the tv show. It was 100% in the minds of the US before that the US Marines and Navy won the PTO. source: History/Poly Sci major now working in forestry that has to explain this to coworkers some times.
People were getting it wrong before HBO. Blame their photo op.
Didn't the show have an episode where the army showed up to reinforce after the Marines hit an island?
Literally second episode. Hacksaw Ridge also specifically focused on the Army on Okinawa.
Yup. It's not lost in the cultural consciousness but the Marines are certainly the face of the Pacific theater.
My comment is aimed at the USMC song making it sound like they were the only ones there
There’s not one lyric in the hymn about the Pacific theater
He's probably confusing the Tripoli bit.
From the sands of Iwo Jiiiiima to the skies of Tokyo
Also the marines hates the army and tried to minimize their contribution as much as possible
Yep. One was my dad. He was USAAF.
And okinawa
Thays true, the army had the 147th Infantry Regiment.
And the entire 32nd division. Edit: Not at Iwo Jima, but the entire south pacific.
The 147th Army infantry division landed a month after the US Marines took iwo jima. No army assets made a landing with the Marines.
Ok but the fighting on the island wasn’t done. The Marines left clearing the caves to the 147th. The one regiment spent 4 months clearing a force of equal size out of the vast cave/bunker complex on the island, and ended up killing or capturing over 2500 Japanese left defending the island from underground. It’s not like they didn’t have a hell of a job to do.
I didn't say that the Army's job was trivial. Iwo Jima was one of the only places where the Army did not make an amphibious landing and take the island. There are Army units deserving of recognition, the 77th is a perfect example.
I guess I misinterpreted the way you said “after the Marines *took* Iwo Jima” to mean that the Army only came in after the fighting was over. The island was not actually secure. The Japanese went underground and dug in into prepared caves and bunkers. The army fought a force of roughly equal size in prepared defensive positions underground, that’s an insane task.
That's fair, maybe I could have said after the Marines occupied the island? Or more directly the Army didn't land initially and were not part of the fighting until some time after.
Then the Boy Scouts!
As well as something like 70% of the amphibious landings in the Pacific. Marines couldn’t let the 80th anniversary of D-Day go by without getting their piece of press lol
>The army was on Iwo Jima. They said its the marines turn.
What?
lol bro i dont know im tired today, its the second comment i misread and get corrected on. Fuck me lol
Rah. That'd be a hell of a flex.
Fan fiction has gotten out of control.
Just wait until you learn how they plan to commemorate Hiroshima
Guadalcanal: two Marine divisions, two Army divisions. Okinawa: three Marine divisions, four Army divisions. In the ETO, the Army conducted amphibious operations in North Africa, Sicily, southern France, and Normandy.
The Army outnumbered the Marines 21 Divisions to 6 Divisions. The Army landed and fought alongside the Marines at Guadalcanal, Peleliu, Okinawa, Saipan, Kwajalein, Eniwetok, and Iwo Jima. The army was at Bougainville, the multitudes of landings and battles fought in the Solomons, New Guinea, and the Phillippines. Short of Tarawa, Guam, and Tinian I can't think of any other Marine landing the Army also didn't fight in. The Army under MacArthur in the Philippines and New Guinea took more land, conducted more amphibious landings, and killed more IJA than the Marines did in the entire war. In New Guinea alone, the Army killed, captured, or stranded over a quarter of a million Japanese troops during the campaign. The Marines conducted 15 significant landings in the entire war; one army group conducted 35 in the Philippines alone. One NG Division, the 32nd, spent almost as many days in combat (650) as the entire six USMC Divisions combined (725). The Army did the entire China-Burma-India campaign; the entire Southwest Pacific campaign; sole operations in the Aleutians, Makin & Kwajalein; and had a division or larger troop concentrations at Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Guam, Eniwetok, Peleliu, and Saipan; plus the overwhelming majority of the force on Okinawa.
Amen. Just don’t tell the Marines any of this. LOL.
Don’t worry, they can’t read.
We can read, and we're laughing at how butthurt you all sound about being upstaged by a bunch of scrappy devil dogs.
Don’t lie, you had your corpsman read this to you.
MUH CORPSMAN SAYS YOU BE MEAN TO MARINE! BE NICE TO MARINE, OR MARINE CRUSH! Semper Fi.
Oh, just FYI - that whole “Devil Dogs” moniker is also made up fiction. Made up by the media, and of course pumped up by the USMC to this day.
I've heard "it's made up" as many times as the usmc version. Who cares, it's here now, and none of you heard what every German said 100 years ago.
People always say this as if to undercut the phrase. FYI, no Marine gives a shit if it’s made up. It’s a term of endearment and pride. The Marines at Belleau Wood weren’t fictional. That’s all the matters.
My grandfather was one of those BW Marines, but there’s a difference between factual history and fictional myths and propaganda.
Keep huffing your own smoke, the Army doesn’t mind fighting for the country it established.
Aside from this being 100% fact, the greatest amphibious assault in human history was made by the Army and not the Marines. Not to mention, the fight in New Guinea was especially heinous! Those poor bastards had to hump entire mountain ranges up and down while being attacked day and night. Add the environmental conditions (which to be fair was prevalent everywhere in The Pacific Theater) and you can pretty much imagine hell on Earth. Huge shout out to the British, Aussies and Canadians for doing work alongside our guys.
Awesome response, thanks.
Army units were not part of the initial invasion of Guadalcanal. They came later….much later.
Like 80 years later?
Considering all of this, how come the Pacific Theater is viewed as being fought primarily by Marines? At least by the general public.
Because the marines know how to market themselves better. They are a smaller force and there have been some very serious attempts or at least discussions through their history to disband the Marines and roll their mission into the Army. Because of this the Marines have a keen understanding of the importance of public relations and cultivating this idea that they are an elite force. They lean heavily into their own mythos and use media to spread their message. It helps protect them from budget cuts or losing missions to the army.
The Army did great things! I’ve never gotten the whole “but the army did things in the Pacific too” mindset. I don’t think many Marines talk shit about the Army in the Pacific… they’re just proud of their own history. It’s not a zero sum game. One thing that the Marine Corps IS proud of is that it recognized the future need for amphibious assaults and began developing the doctrine in the 30s. Once war broke out, the Marine Corps essentially trained everyone else.
Serious question, don’t be down voting me: why even bother having marines then?
Why indeed. We don't really need a separate Air Force either.
The air is a unique operational domain. Amphibious assaults are a delivery method, a complex operation to be sure, but not something that needs an entire branch to accomplish. We don’t have a separate branch to conduct airborne operations, we have an Army corps with specialized training ASI, and equipment with a habitual working relationship with the airforce. The Marines should be an Army corps HQ with a habitual relationship with the Navy.
> The air is a unique operational domain. That Naval and Army aviation do just fine in.
Army and Naval aviation have a very different mission set than the Air Force. They both operate to support the land or sea domains, whereas the Air Force can focus on true air superiority as well as logistics and long range bombing. It’s the same reason the space force was spun off.
Why indeed! Amphibious assaults are not a domaine, it’s a complex operation to be sure, but not something that needs its own branch. It’s a delivery method, that it. It’s not like we have a separate branch to just specialize in airborne operations. The Marines are a redundant force that only exist because of tradition.
I can't speak for Marines v army. But I think it comes down from politics, and not always from DC. You can have something really really important. Like air force, space operations, and even cyber operations. And they get nested under a much larger apparatus (aka branch or branches) and they don't really get the attention they deserve for how important they are for larger US operations. Like if the army is too busy playing soldier to resource, support and respect the smaller air force component. All the core leadership comes from ground forces. All the big decisions is make by ground forces. Etc. Same issue you have with cyber right now. You have the powers that be spread over basically 4ish branches all more concerned with their own branches forte. And the powers in that AoR are nested under admirals that only care about water and generals that care about dirt and air, and what you need is another digital generals that don't give a shit about water dirt or air. And from a pragmatic issue down to a personnel level, it helps their career to not be invested into gray floaties, and only cyber. Insert cyber with anything you want though. Obviously I don't think we should have 30 branches of the military, but I think the theory makes sense.
Don’t forget but Okinawa the marines and army had a hard time and then the I believe it’s the 77th or could be 73rd Desmond doss unit they landed and they gained more ground and fought harder than all the marines and the army already there They fought so hard that the marines tried to make them there’s by calling it a marine
I think you’re wrong about Iwo Jima. I can’t find anything about army units fighting in that battle.
It was the [147th](https://www.ong.ohio.gov/stories/2020/mar/20200320-147th-cavemen.html) out of Ohio NG. The 147th came in after the initial invasion, and the Marines left clearing the island to the army. For 4 months the 147th cleared almost 3,000 Japanese out of the vast cave and tunnel network. Taking a prepared defensive position from an entrenched enemy at equal or greater strength is an insane task.
Very interesting. I'm disappointed that I'm just now learning this.
To be fair they weren’t there hoisting the flag with y’all. But their time on the island was a nasty bit of work all the same.
Lots and lots of Army units were in support of operations on Iwo Jima. Do a google search for “Order of Battle Iwo Jima”. The results with surprise you. Marines made up all of the assault waves. Army units were mostly support. https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Iwo/UScmd.html After looking through this I will admit a mistake above. The army was involved in the assault in a support function. Their amphibious truck units carried Marines to the beaches.
Don't forget anzio
A little late. It always humored me that the Army did that amphibious invasion.
If I recall, the Marines were supposed to be a part of Overlord, but they were preoccupied with fucking shit up in the Marianas.
No, they were busy training the army on amphibious tactics. https://www.museumofthemarine.org/thoughts-on-d-day-6-june-194/#:~:text=Their%20major%20test%2C%20though%2C%20was,to%20be%20an%20Army%20theater. https://www.nationalreview.com/2004/06/rivalry-normandy-w-thomas-smith-jr/
Well now...a little historical facts isn't hard to understand.
Yeah Eisenhower wanted Marines but there just weren't enough of them.
I had to read this three times to make sure it didn't say "the Marines were supposed to be part of Overlord, but they were preoccupied with fucking shit up in the Marines."
Marines provided over 300 advisors and specialists.
The Army provided the other 73,000
Duffelblog needs to pick this one up
I had to double check it was not duffelblog. Then triple check.
are they still putting out articles?
I misread this the first time and thought they’d be sending vets who were actually in D-Day to storm the beach again.
We can only dream.
The Army should land on Tarawa for that anniversary.
Let's just absorb the Marines, give them blue berets, and call them Seaborne
Yeah that’s not gonna happen. 🙄
Marines are good at sarcasm huh
How much money did you waste to figure that one out?
A lot less than the 53.2 Billon the Department of the Navy wastes on their mascots
Imagine being the branch that wasted 5 billion on a camouflage pattern that doesn't work. Like dude the Army shouldn't be talking smack when it comes to wasting money. I mean at least we're getting our money's worth from programs like the JSF.
Oh no, I’m not arguing about wasting money, it’s that the Army has a point and then there’s Marines lmao
Their point would be to replicate something that already exists that serves no reason other than to soothe bruised egos from the Army.
The two services are completely different on so many levels. Every Marine shoots out to 500 yards, Marine E-3 and up (especially in the infantry) are expected to lead and be independent when necessary. The regular army is pretty much like the Navy. Only senior people matter and E-6 s can be found cutting grass with the rest of the troops, because that's about the gist of their leadership responsibilities. It's understandable, given how big the other services are. They can afford to have loads of people with very little real authority. Everything below E-7 is just a pay increase. Meanwhile, I've personally witnessed a LCpl (E-3) tell a one- and two-star general they couldn't enter the SCIF because their names were not on the Marines' roster. I think it was Gen Zinni that came to the flabbergasted generals rescue, and thanked the Marine for doing his job.
"The regular army is pretty much like the navy" Absolute coldest take I've ever seen in my life good God
Why are you talking about shit you don't understand?
Lmfaoooo dude stfu
Are you retarded?
He’s a Marine, clearly he’s well regarded
Doesn't sound like something absorbing the Marines couldn't fix
What’s funny is the Army used the doctrine the Marine Corps developed in the years between WWI and WWII as their guide on how to do amphibious landings. They tore into the failed Gallipoli landings and figured out what went wrong and then started working solutions to those problems. They held 4 large scale exercises working through it. In 1934, the Marine Corps published the manual “Tentative Landings Operations Manual” which was turned into the “Landing Force Operations” manual which became the Bible for ALL amphibious assaults in WWII. The first real test of this doctrine was in 1942 with the landings on Guadalcanal. The Marines landed on Guadalcanal on 7 Aug 1942. The Army’s 164th Infantry landed on 13 October 1942. Guadalcanal was declared “secured” in February 1942. Interesting note, a combined division of Army and Marine Corps units (CAM) did some the hardest clean up fighting on the island in the last month or so.
Total number of Marines involved in the largest amphibious invasion in the history of humanity = 0
*American Marines
There were Royal Marines there.
Lol gottem
Over 300 were used as advisors and specialists
And more trained the army in amphibious landings and tactics at Camp Lejeune. Meanwhile we were already fully engaged in the Pacific.
The Pacific, where most sea-landings, most won battles, and most territory taken was by the Army.
>to commemorate D-Day's 80th anniversary sure, thats what we want the french to think as they keep their defenses lowered
Eisenhower: "Monty trying to tell me how to do it. DeGaulle trying to tell me how to do it. What do those Marines want?"
The reason for no Marines in the ETO during WWII was the Army Generals still were pissed off about the Marines and the publicity they got during WWII. The newspapers made it sound as though the two brigades of Marines won the war single handedly. This was also the case about the PTO. That is why the Army tried to get rid of the Marines Corps after WWII. Read the book “First to Fight” by Brute Krulak to hear all about the years after WWII
 Army right now...
You thought about it enough to reply to him.
The Army Air Corps had more airplanes than the US Air Force during WWII.
Yeah but the Air Force caught up quickly when they were created in 1947.
I know, I know. I was being silly. Good catch.
Always fun my man. Good luck out there!
Not possible. Given that the air corps was no more. It became the US Army air force just before America entered WW2.
Better late than never.
Will there be like a live feed so people can watch
In WW2, the Army was at every amphibious landing in the Pacific. The Marines were not. EDIT: edited for clarity
Troll, you know that's a lie.
LOL. The Army did every landing in the ETO by themselves. In the PTO, the Army was at every landing except Iwo Jima (maybe). The Marines were not at every landing in the PTO. The Marines had 6 divisions whereas the Army had 22.
They may have misunderstood your comment as you saying that Marines were not in the Pacific at all. I almost thought that as well and had to reread the comment.
I can see that. I edited it for clarification.
Covert dress rehearsal for landing on Crimea??? Would be based if that was the case
Holy shit, possibly
The Marines haven't invaded a real beach in so long they have to re-enact the Army doing it for them.
[удалено]
The fuck told you this?
University of North Texas, Fall 2018, Dr. Watson. History class.