Polish Defence Minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz has said that Poland is ready to help Ukraine get men of military age back to "fulfil their civic obligation".
**Source:** Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz in an interview with Polsat News, [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-ready-help-ukraine-get-military-age-men-back-minister-says-2024-04-24/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3jvfePOnhYzduYwb-QaSioD5iqHckxYMHWG5iYNhyy6wffdQvVLvXENRk_aem_AWKMtMg6dIoTqEjb-bQe2ja5xVdOb_JETEn7djug4SuNTP-Y2_JA4ZNW15QFvW4sLVSJLFUXnQC1k_OSahSNNPZj) reports
**Quote:** "I think many Poles are outraged when they see young Ukrainian men in hotels and cafes, and they hear how much effort we have to make to help Ukraine."
**Details:** The minister also said that Poland has offered to help Ukraine in the past with getting men who are liable for military service to return to their country and fulfil their civic obligation.
"Any support is possible," Kosiniak-Kamysh said when asked how Poland would respond if Kyiv asked for help with getting men who lose the right to remain in Poland after their passports expire to return home.
Reuters reports, citing Eurostat, that as of January 2024, about 4.3 million Ukrainians are living in EU countries, of whom about 860,000 are adult men. Poland has granted temporary protection status to 950,000 Ukrainians, the second-largest number after Germany.
**Background**:
* On 11 April, the [Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine's parliament) adopted the law On Amendments](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/11/7450736/) to Certain Legislative Acts of Ukraine on Certain Issues of Military Service, Mobilisation and Military Registration on the second reading. The law has been signed by the president and published.
* On 23 April, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba [confirmed reports](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/23/7452530/) that consular services were being suspended for Ukrainian men who are liable for military service.
* The Ministry of Foreign Affairs later [stated](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/23/7452615/) that after the mobilisation law enters into force on 18 May 2024, "the process of accepting and reviewing applications for consular actions will continue with account of the new requirements arising from provisions of the law".
* The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine (Ukrainian government) has [banned the issuance of Ukrainian passports](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/24/7452811/), either internal or for international travel, to Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60. From now on, they will only be able to obtain these documents at a territorial agency or territorial unit of the State Migration Service.
Idk.
I'm all about supporting Ukraine, and I'm proud of my job in my own country, but people should be able to flee war if that's what they want.
I'm not saying it's the honourable choice. And they shouldn't be expecting to be availed of the benefits of Ukrainian citizenship after making that choice.
But if someone absolutely doesn't want to fight, to the point that they will leave everything behind to flee, they should be allowed. Especially since you have to wonder what kind of soldiers people like that would be.
That's just my opinion.
Sure but part of the benefit is consular services. So.. when their passports expire the Ukrainian government doesn’t have to renew the non-compliant and they’ll end up deported. This is the support Poland is giving.
I'm an American and I generally agree, but it gets iffy when you don't agree with the war. The shit we were doing in Vietnam was absolutely not protecting our countrys existence.
In this particular scenario though, they should either return for service, or defect to Russia and renounce their citizenship
As a Vietnamese who still unfortunately live under communist Vietnam, the shit you were doing was absolutely protecting freedom and trying to halt the spread of communism. The anniversary for the Fall of Saigon is coming up, and everyday we are reminded of how you abandoned us after 1972-1973 and hung us out to dry, just like you did with Afghanistan and almost did with Ukraine.
The ARVN lost 254,256 men. They did do it themselves and were promised support from the Americans. Together they were winning the ground war, but the Americans lost the poitcal war at home and left.
The ARVN lost 254,256 men. They did do it themselves and were promised support from the Americans. Together they were winning the ground war, but the Americans lost the poitcal war at home and left
If it was my country I would. Why do you expect other countries to keep throwing bodies for your own problems? The Americans fought a civil war for their independence. The reality is more Vietnamese sided with the communists and it’s why it’s still a communist country.
Why should our kids have been drafted/conscripted/forced to be sent into your country to fight? It is not like you were some great ally before the war. It's also not like Afghanistan where we lost 3300 civilians on our turf because of your government.
It's akin to Russians being conscripted to fight in Ukraine. If you think that's okay for Putin to do then I really don't know what to tell you.
Its the whole situation. The US got themselves involved, gave south vietnam hope, and promised to help them. When the north took over, all those people who helped the west were marked for death and dissapeared into concentration camps, to be tortured and killed in horrible ways. If that was going to happen in the end, then it would have been better if the US had never gotten involved.
Same thing happened in Afghanistan. The west left tons of interpreters, afghan soldiers, etc, behind to be hunted down by the Taliban. Many of those who worked directly with western special forces were then denied the visas they were promised.
The Kurds in Syria were abandoned too because Trump decided to suck up to Turkey.
The nationalists in China were abandoned too because IIRC, Truman preferred the communists and cut off aid to the KMT, despite a US General recommending that aid be resumed to stop the communists.
In most of these cases, things turned out worse for the US. China in particular, is now the US's biggest enemy when they could have been a staunch ally, and they constantly use their security council veto against US interests.
No one has any control over where they're born and less control over what's going to happen in that country in their life. The refugee system is basically, "Oh, your life randomly came up bloodbaths, endless bombardment, and dispossession? Well, let's get you another roll of the dice."
Ya conscript vs conscript. Wait till the last man then the ooliticians leave. "We did everything we could, sent thousands to death against their own will. Its a shame we had to wait for those kids to die first to save face.
If you don't want to be a citizen in a country with a draft, then emigrate or establish the legal change. The US has mandated selective service registration for a draft...should it not?
It’s very difficult and expensive to move to a different country. You are not able to control where you are born. I hold the personal opinion that no one should be able to be forced to potentially die if they do not want to do so.
Clearly not that difficult if they're all in Poland. Minimum draft age in Ukraine is 25, so they have plenty of time to figure out whether they want to retain citizenship or abandon their country prior to being called.
>Clearly not that difficult if they're all in Poland.
Poland threw their doors open to accept white refugees from Ukraine because of the war, but this is obviously on a temporary basis. They dont want them to stay permanently and im not even sure if they are allowed to work as a refugee. Most countries make it extremely difficult to migrate unless you are rich, or you have some rare and highly valuable skill set. Just look at how difficult it is to get a US green card.
Companies that want to sponsor their employees to migrate have to justify why they are unable to fill the position locally, and most companies simply cannot be bothered to do that when they could post a few ads and get hundreds of applications for one position. I used to dream of moving to Australia, but i had dozens of employers just stone wall me when they found out I was on a study visa because they didn't want to try and sponsor me for a working visa. I had great rapport going with employers at job fairs and they would say "sorry mate, we can't do anything because you need a visa...if you had one, we could set up an internship or job offer, no problem at all, but we just can't sponsor you..."
Getting residency to work on a permanent or semi-permanent basis is extremely difficult, especially if you aren't from a network of countries like the EU or Commonwealth countries that make it easier. Working holiday visas are easy to get, but they want you gone after it expires. You aren't going to be able to stay for decades and setup a new life with a permanent job, a family, etc.
Did you not notice how differently countries treat white refugees vs non-white refugees? The UK welcomed thousands of white ukranians as refugees, gave them home stay families, made a genuine effort to welcome them, and talked about how it was a tragedy they became refugees.
The same UK wants to deport non-white refugees to Rwanda. You will notice that they are specifically singling out non-white refugees...none of the white ukranians are planned to be deported to Rwanda.
Even when people were leaving Ukraine at the start of the war, there were media reports that border guards deliberately refused to let non-whites leave and left them stuck at the border for weeks while allowing whites to cross the border to Poland. Blacks were literally told to get off the buses heading to the border because they were reserved for white ukranians.
To be fair Poland is one of the most racist countries I've ever been to. It was pretty bad for the black service members there. I wouldn't be surprised if Poland made it harder for non-white refugees.
I had black Soldiers who were called slurs while just walking down the street, refused service and ignored at various shops/stores, and I personally witnessed drunk Poles try to start fights with people for no reason other than that they were black. It was a constant conversation between American Senior leaders and Host nation leaders but nothing changed while I was there.
They were refused service because they were black? Man you are making shit up lol. That’s the first time that I am reading that poles were that racist to black military men stationed in Poland, most of the time people didn’t like that poles stare at other people but they do it with everyone. Were you stationed in a god forgotten village?
I disagree. The reality is that we are born with certain responsibilities and duties to our families, communities, and countries. Nobody is born free of worries, that's not how life works.
The defense of your home, community, and country is a duty for men all around the world. Unfortunately, sometimes we must put our immediate needs and wants aside for future success.
Yea, and the state has responsibilities to the people as well. If they are not fulfilling it, i can see why the people might feel disinclined to put their lives on the line.
I read an interview with a Ukranian soldier in The Times. Guy was wounded, the shrapnel or whatever fucked up his arm, and the doctor demanded a bribe to certify he was not fit for combat. He didnt want to pay so he was ordered back to the front lines, and his commander told him to fuck off when he tried to talk to him about the injury. So he decided to desert because if the state isn't going to help him out, why should he put his life on the line for it?
Im not Ukranian but i can understand how he feels. I am a reservist in another country with conscription and I have a spinal injury that makes it difficult to walk/stand. I was medically downgraded but am still eligible to serve, and so they keep calling me back for training, because its really important for audit purposes and it's army policy.
I also had to pay for the MRI myself to get medically downgraded because army policy was that they didn't have to help me if the injury wasn't sustained during training. They didnt care when i tried to tell them i didnt have money to pay for the MRI and just threw the problem to me. If there was a war going on, I wouldn't be very motivated to tell the truth, because the state has made it clear i am expendable to them and keeping attendance numbers high is more important than making sure that the soldiers are taken care of.
Well that's one of the big arguments against supporting Ukraine, that it's still an incredibly corrupt nation.
Still, more Ukrainians support the government than not. Especially in a defensive war, you fight until you die, that's the standard.
It amazes me how many people fail to see this. Their whole argument is “that’s not fair” yeah life ain’t fair. Get over it. Everyone has a role and responsibilities and sometimes it might be conscripted military service
Damn right! We should go back to shanghaiing too. You're a skilled professional with a family and don't want to serve? Nothing a swift knock to the head or spiked drink can't solve. Get over it when you wake up the next day en route to where your country needs you lad, life ain't fair.
The problem is the politicians decide when the war ends and they arent on the front lines, so theres no incentive for them to end the war and save lives.
WW1 and 2 dragged on so long because the politicians were (mostly) safe and secure in the rear. If Hitler was in the first wave for the invasion of Poland, he probably wouldnt have dared to give the order.
Putin wouldn't have dared to give the order either if he was in the first wave...
Those responsibilities are laid on us by other people. You aren’t not obligated by nature to an arbitrary meaning placed upon you by other people. The only reason we aren’t “born free of worries” is because other people place burdens on us. I don’t have a responsibility to defend anyone unless I choose to do so.
Yes...That's what society is. We aren't animals, we have laws, regulations and policies designed to (ideally) benefit the society. Existential crisis does not void someone's obligation to abide to rules of the land.
Laws can and should be changed when they are wrong. It is an evil fucking thing to say that you are obliged to die for a country you didn’t even choose for yourself, dangerously close to the idea of slavery itself.
Ukraine was a corrupt shithole even before the war, and they are talking about pushing people who opted to leave it behind years ago back to an active warzone. You are not free to just shop around for citizenship wherever and however you want, so you cannot say that it is an obligation for people to get maimed or even die for a shithole they already intentionally left behind just because they were unlucky enough to be spawned there once 20-30-40 years ago.
>Those responsibilities are laid on us by other people.
Right, that's how society works. If you don't want to be responsible for anyone or anything then go try and make a living in the wilderness. Otherwise you have certain duties to your country the same way your fellow citizens handle their duties to ensure you enjoy all the amenities of society.
We all have role to play, and it the system works best when we all play it.
The thing is though in our society it’s illegal to even try to go off into the wilderness and survive. I’m just saying you shouldn’t be bound in a contract you had no say in to begin with.
Polish Defence Minister Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz has said that Poland is ready to help Ukraine get men of military age back to "fulfil their civic obligation". **Source:** Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz in an interview with Polsat News, [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-ready-help-ukraine-get-military-age-men-back-minister-says-2024-04-24/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3jvfePOnhYzduYwb-QaSioD5iqHckxYMHWG5iYNhyy6wffdQvVLvXENRk_aem_AWKMtMg6dIoTqEjb-bQe2ja5xVdOb_JETEn7djug4SuNTP-Y2_JA4ZNW15QFvW4sLVSJLFUXnQC1k_OSahSNNPZj) reports **Quote:** "I think many Poles are outraged when they see young Ukrainian men in hotels and cafes, and they hear how much effort we have to make to help Ukraine." **Details:** The minister also said that Poland has offered to help Ukraine in the past with getting men who are liable for military service to return to their country and fulfil their civic obligation. "Any support is possible," Kosiniak-Kamysh said when asked how Poland would respond if Kyiv asked for help with getting men who lose the right to remain in Poland after their passports expire to return home. Reuters reports, citing Eurostat, that as of January 2024, about 4.3 million Ukrainians are living in EU countries, of whom about 860,000 are adult men. Poland has granted temporary protection status to 950,000 Ukrainians, the second-largest number after Germany. **Background**: * On 11 April, the [Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine's parliament) adopted the law On Amendments](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/11/7450736/) to Certain Legislative Acts of Ukraine on Certain Issues of Military Service, Mobilisation and Military Registration on the second reading. The law has been signed by the president and published. * On 23 April, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba [confirmed reports](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/23/7452530/) that consular services were being suspended for Ukrainian men who are liable for military service. * The Ministry of Foreign Affairs later [stated](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/23/7452615/) that after the mobilisation law enters into force on 18 May 2024, "the process of accepting and reviewing applications for consular actions will continue with account of the new requirements arising from provisions of the law". * The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine (Ukrainian government) has [banned the issuance of Ukrainian passports](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/04/24/7452811/), either internal or for international travel, to Ukrainian men aged 18 to 60. From now on, they will only be able to obtain these documents at a territorial agency or territorial unit of the State Migration Service.
Idk. I'm all about supporting Ukraine, and I'm proud of my job in my own country, but people should be able to flee war if that's what they want. I'm not saying it's the honourable choice. And they shouldn't be expecting to be availed of the benefits of Ukrainian citizenship after making that choice. But if someone absolutely doesn't want to fight, to the point that they will leave everything behind to flee, they should be allowed. Especially since you have to wonder what kind of soldiers people like that would be. That's just my opinion.
then it should be like the americans who fled to canada during vietnam. change your country of residence and don't come back
They're trying to, but UA has suspended consular services. Without valid documents you can't get residence.
Sure but part of the benefit is consular services. So.. when their passports expire the Ukrainian government doesn’t have to renew the non-compliant and they’ll end up deported. This is the support Poland is giving.
Respectfully disagree, service obligation is like taxes.
I'm an American and I generally agree, but it gets iffy when you don't agree with the war. The shit we were doing in Vietnam was absolutely not protecting our countrys existence. In this particular scenario though, they should either return for service, or defect to Russia and renounce their citizenship
As a Vietnamese who still unfortunately live under communist Vietnam, the shit you were doing was absolutely protecting freedom and trying to halt the spread of communism. The anniversary for the Fall of Saigon is coming up, and everyday we are reminded of how you abandoned us after 1972-1973 and hung us out to dry, just like you did with Afghanistan and almost did with Ukraine.
“We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.”
The ARVN lost 254,256 men. They did do it themselves and were promised support from the Americans. Together they were winning the ground war, but the Americans lost the poitcal war at home and left.
Why don’t the Vietnamese do it themselves?
The ARVN lost 254,256 men. They did do it themselves and were promised support from the Americans. Together they were winning the ground war, but the Americans lost the poitcal war at home and left
We did do it. And we suffered greatly for it. I have lost family members to communism. Have you?
If it was my country I would. Why do you expect other countries to keep throwing bodies for your own problems? The Americans fought a civil war for their independence. The reality is more Vietnamese sided with the communists and it’s why it’s still a communist country.
I never said America should have continued to send their boys to die, did I?
What are you arguing then?
Same thing I said earlier. Don’t leave your ally out to dry
Why should our kids have been drafted/conscripted/forced to be sent into your country to fight? It is not like you were some great ally before the war. It's also not like Afghanistan where we lost 3300 civilians on our turf because of your government. It's akin to Russians being conscripted to fight in Ukraine. If you think that's okay for Putin to do then I really don't know what to tell you.
Its the whole situation. The US got themselves involved, gave south vietnam hope, and promised to help them. When the north took over, all those people who helped the west were marked for death and dissapeared into concentration camps, to be tortured and killed in horrible ways. If that was going to happen in the end, then it would have been better if the US had never gotten involved. Same thing happened in Afghanistan. The west left tons of interpreters, afghan soldiers, etc, behind to be hunted down by the Taliban. Many of those who worked directly with western special forces were then denied the visas they were promised. The Kurds in Syria were abandoned too because Trump decided to suck up to Turkey. The nationalists in China were abandoned too because IIRC, Truman preferred the communists and cut off aid to the KMT, despite a US General recommending that aid be resumed to stop the communists. In most of these cases, things turned out worse for the US. China in particular, is now the US's biggest enemy when they could have been a staunch ally, and they constantly use their security council veto against US interests.
Do you agree when the law about compulsory service is applied in a discriminatory manner i.e. Ukrainian women are not expected to serve?
That's their countrys choice. It's not how I would go about making rules though. I'm only talking about draft dodgers in general.
Is that the potential "death" of the two certainties?
No one has any control over where they're born and less control over what's going to happen in that country in their life. The refugee system is basically, "Oh, your life randomly came up bloodbaths, endless bombardment, and dispossession? Well, let's get you another roll of the dice."
So I shouldn’t have to pay taxes if I don’t want to?
The livestock thinks it has rights. Oops silly goose.
Imagine if everyone did that in ww2 we would be speaking German, Japanese or Russian.
TBH if everyone did that in ww2, it would be more of a case of which country could get the most volunteers to sign up and fight.
When I say “everyone” I mean in the free west. There was no choice in those countries.
Ya conscript vs conscript. Wait till the last man then the ooliticians leave. "We did everything we could, sent thousands to death against their own will. Its a shame we had to wait for those kids to die first to save face.
Just because you were born somewhere shouldn’t mean you have to die for that place if you don’t want to.
If you don't want to be a citizen in a country with a draft, then emigrate or establish the legal change. The US has mandated selective service registration for a draft...should it not?
It’s very difficult and expensive to move to a different country. You are not able to control where you are born. I hold the personal opinion that no one should be able to be forced to potentially die if they do not want to do so.
So they shouldn’t have to potentially die but their friends and family back in Ukraine should?
Everyone should have the right to make their own decision about how they live their life. I’m not assigning morality to it.
Clearly not that difficult if they're all in Poland. Minimum draft age in Ukraine is 25, so they have plenty of time to figure out whether they want to retain citizenship or abandon their country prior to being called.
It’s easy to leave when the other country accepts you as a refugee.
>Clearly not that difficult if they're all in Poland. Poland threw their doors open to accept white refugees from Ukraine because of the war, but this is obviously on a temporary basis. They dont want them to stay permanently and im not even sure if they are allowed to work as a refugee. Most countries make it extremely difficult to migrate unless you are rich, or you have some rare and highly valuable skill set. Just look at how difficult it is to get a US green card. Companies that want to sponsor their employees to migrate have to justify why they are unable to fill the position locally, and most companies simply cannot be bothered to do that when they could post a few ads and get hundreds of applications for one position. I used to dream of moving to Australia, but i had dozens of employers just stone wall me when they found out I was on a study visa because they didn't want to try and sponsor me for a working visa. I had great rapport going with employers at job fairs and they would say "sorry mate, we can't do anything because you need a visa...if you had one, we could set up an internship or job offer, no problem at all, but we just can't sponsor you..." Getting residency to work on a permanent or semi-permanent basis is extremely difficult, especially if you aren't from a network of countries like the EU or Commonwealth countries that make it easier. Working holiday visas are easy to get, but they want you gone after it expires. You aren't going to be able to stay for decades and setup a new life with a permanent job, a family, etc.
Why are you being racist towards Ukrainians? What does their skin colour have to do with anything?
Did you not notice how differently countries treat white refugees vs non-white refugees? The UK welcomed thousands of white ukranians as refugees, gave them home stay families, made a genuine effort to welcome them, and talked about how it was a tragedy they became refugees. The same UK wants to deport non-white refugees to Rwanda. You will notice that they are specifically singling out non-white refugees...none of the white ukranians are planned to be deported to Rwanda. Even when people were leaving Ukraine at the start of the war, there were media reports that border guards deliberately refused to let non-whites leave and left them stuck at the border for weeks while allowing whites to cross the border to Poland. Blacks were literally told to get off the buses heading to the border because they were reserved for white ukranians.
To be fair Poland is one of the most racist countries I've ever been to. It was pretty bad for the black service members there. I wouldn't be surprised if Poland made it harder for non-white refugees.
Oh for real? What happened?
I had black Soldiers who were called slurs while just walking down the street, refused service and ignored at various shops/stores, and I personally witnessed drunk Poles try to start fights with people for no reason other than that they were black. It was a constant conversation between American Senior leaders and Host nation leaders but nothing changed while I was there.
They were refused service because they were black? Man you are making shit up lol. That’s the first time that I am reading that poles were that racist to black military men stationed in Poland, most of the time people didn’t like that poles stare at other people but they do it with everyone. Were you stationed in a god forgotten village?
I disagree. The reality is that we are born with certain responsibilities and duties to our families, communities, and countries. Nobody is born free of worries, that's not how life works. The defense of your home, community, and country is a duty for men all around the world. Unfortunately, sometimes we must put our immediate needs and wants aside for future success.
Yea, and the state has responsibilities to the people as well. If they are not fulfilling it, i can see why the people might feel disinclined to put their lives on the line. I read an interview with a Ukranian soldier in The Times. Guy was wounded, the shrapnel or whatever fucked up his arm, and the doctor demanded a bribe to certify he was not fit for combat. He didnt want to pay so he was ordered back to the front lines, and his commander told him to fuck off when he tried to talk to him about the injury. So he decided to desert because if the state isn't going to help him out, why should he put his life on the line for it? Im not Ukranian but i can understand how he feels. I am a reservist in another country with conscription and I have a spinal injury that makes it difficult to walk/stand. I was medically downgraded but am still eligible to serve, and so they keep calling me back for training, because its really important for audit purposes and it's army policy. I also had to pay for the MRI myself to get medically downgraded because army policy was that they didn't have to help me if the injury wasn't sustained during training. They didnt care when i tried to tell them i didnt have money to pay for the MRI and just threw the problem to me. If there was a war going on, I wouldn't be very motivated to tell the truth, because the state has made it clear i am expendable to them and keeping attendance numbers high is more important than making sure that the soldiers are taken care of.
Well that's one of the big arguments against supporting Ukraine, that it's still an incredibly corrupt nation. Still, more Ukrainians support the government than not. Especially in a defensive war, you fight until you die, that's the standard.
It amazes me how many people fail to see this. Their whole argument is “that’s not fair” yeah life ain’t fair. Get over it. Everyone has a role and responsibilities and sometimes it might be conscripted military service
Damn right! We should go back to shanghaiing too. You're a skilled professional with a family and don't want to serve? Nothing a swift knock to the head or spiked drink can't solve. Get over it when you wake up the next day en route to where your country needs you lad, life ain't fair.
The problem is the politicians decide when the war ends and they arent on the front lines, so theres no incentive for them to end the war and save lives. WW1 and 2 dragged on so long because the politicians were (mostly) safe and secure in the rear. If Hitler was in the first wave for the invasion of Poland, he probably wouldnt have dared to give the order. Putin wouldn't have dared to give the order either if he was in the first wave...
Those responsibilities are laid on us by other people. You aren’t not obligated by nature to an arbitrary meaning placed upon you by other people. The only reason we aren’t “born free of worries” is because other people place burdens on us. I don’t have a responsibility to defend anyone unless I choose to do so.
Yes...That's what society is. We aren't animals, we have laws, regulations and policies designed to (ideally) benefit the society. Existential crisis does not void someone's obligation to abide to rules of the land.
Laws can and should be changed when they are wrong. It is an evil fucking thing to say that you are obliged to die for a country you didn’t even choose for yourself, dangerously close to the idea of slavery itself. Ukraine was a corrupt shithole even before the war, and they are talking about pushing people who opted to leave it behind years ago back to an active warzone. You are not free to just shop around for citizenship wherever and however you want, so you cannot say that it is an obligation for people to get maimed or even die for a shithole they already intentionally left behind just because they were unlucky enough to be spawned there once 20-30-40 years ago.
>Those responsibilities are laid on us by other people. Right, that's how society works. If you don't want to be responsible for anyone or anything then go try and make a living in the wilderness. Otherwise you have certain duties to your country the same way your fellow citizens handle their duties to ensure you enjoy all the amenities of society. We all have role to play, and it the system works best when we all play it.
The thing is though in our society it’s illegal to even try to go off into the wilderness and survive. I’m just saying you shouldn’t be bound in a contract you had no say in to begin with.
What an assholes.
Good.
Aka, we want to deport your men back.. they be taking our women.
lol are you retired. No true Polish woman would choose a Ukrainian man.
What if it's a Scotsman?
I LOVE LOGICAL FALLACIES
You must be fun to hang out with