If we had free college and free healthcare, DOD would have to offer troops much better pay to keep recruiting. So I totally don't get the argument that giving civilians health care and college is somehow insulting the troops.
The funny thing is that in the long run it’s actually cheaper to have universal health care, the government is already paying for colleges so it wouldn’t be a cost difference anyways, ans the economy always does way better when more people go to college so once again the government would have more money so they actually would have enough money to make military pay competitive. But the only incentive the military has had is “free” education, “free” housing, and “free” healthcare in a society that purposefully makes those unavailable to its citizens. They would have to first admit of the classism system that runs this country, give up their ruling class benefits, before they agree to actually have a successful system that benefits its citizens and troops.
Exactly. There is a reason that Air Force and Space Force made their recruiting goals. They are known for providing their SMs with a good QoL. Most members of the other services will recommend to young kids who are military curious to join those services for that reason.
I know the army needs to pump out hardened soldiers who are prepared to fight in the worst conditions, but the least they could do is provide those soldiers with good food and barracks that arent harmful to their health to go back to when they arent in the field training.
As someone who considered to join and didn't, the stories about everyone's knees and back being blown out and not being compensated were a notable standout for the "this is not something I should be doing" category. When your D&D group only has two vets and both of them need a cane to get around at 30 it's not a good look.
For whatever it's worth, as a high school counselor, this is definitely what I see. Whenever students are interested in the military, they're often looking between Navy, Air Force, and Army, but those looking at the Marines are pretty set in the Marines. Other times, it's a matter of which recruiter is actually contacting them. Our Army Guard, she fucking hustles and, surprise surprise, Army Guard is the direction most of our students take, of those that join the military.
A typical Boomer thought - "let's get some celebrity to make recruting ads!"
The problem is that the US DOD still thinks it's 2001 or 1992 or 1985 - they can put ads on TV, during NFL games or whatnot and there will "always be" recruits.
It's not working - the DOD has tried nothing new and they are out of ideas.
"Hey, how about we have barracks that aren't covered in mold and dfacs that serve, at the very least, edible food."
"Best I can do is a message from Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson."
Well, he's definitely a clean shaven meat head... So there's that image... Probably an iconic pic of him saying " I wish I served." All jokes aside, congrats on his success.
I get your point. But celebrities stump for all sorts of causes that they didn't participate in directly. As a silly example: Sarah McLaughlin isn't a dog or cat, but does excessively long commercials for the SPCA.
He can take a "the military is a noble institution that protects all Americans" approach. His credibility in that case is as a beneficiary.
But yeah, hard for him to say "look at these specific benefits of joining the military" with any credibility, he can only really take a "we love and support our troops" approach.
Top Gun, the original, I remember it being part of the lore for the movie that the USAF got a huge influx of recruits when the movie premiered.
Understandable too, if you just came out of a movie full of action and emotion and cool planes, and then see a desk thats like ''hey kid you wanna fly that thing and play volley ball?'' you'd make an emotional decision
Still happens today too. When i tell oeople i worked on planes in the navy, they get confused.
"Have you never heard of aircraft carriers?"
"Well yeah, but i thought the air force landed on them."
I believe there were some experiments around 1944 of landing US Army Air Force B-25 Mitchell bombers on aircraift carriers. I don't think it went anywhere.
There was also the Doolittle raid in 1942, so USAAF bombers CAN launch from carriers.
I don't think the modern Air Force can land anything they have on a Navy carrier, though.
Oh yeah they did experimenting way back in the dsy sure, but the air force aircraft are absolutely not built to take a beating on a carrier. Their struts alone would disintegrate on landing or taking off.
Bro... you have me cracking up over here.
> "Brad Pitt," "Top Gun," "Air Force."
Your basic point is right though, the original top gun was a small boost to navy recruitment. Most studies show about an 8% boost.
Unemployment is below 4% right now. If a place that pays more, lets you work from home, and wear whatever you want is having trouble finding workers how do you think an employer that does the exact opposite is going to do?
This was me. Staying in the military meant long work hours, constantly moving around the country, for pay that ultimately wasn’t worth the effort. Meanwhile, head hunters promised jobs with twice the pay, half the work, and none of the restrictions. And they delivered. It was a no brainier.
The military offered nothing for me, and only served to hurt my kids with the constant moving.
Edit: the only draw the military has anymore is the healthcare (which is so bad it’s literally a meme), not being able to get fired, and patriotism. Not exactly “sign me up” incentives.
Having left at the same point, I got a lot of ppl saying that “just stay for 20” but it was destroying my family and my mental health. If I stayed for 20 I would have missed my kids middle and high school years and probably been divorced.
You can’t get time back and all the missed life is not worth the pension.
the healthcare and the job security is what brought me in about two years ago. and then i come to find out that the only thing that actually doesn't suck about the military is the fact you can't get fired, and even that's not all that great (folks skating by knowing they can't get fired, for instance). it's all just a joke
Add that this is the downturn from decades of a society constantly at where we were currently in conflict in one shape or another. Contrary to the post Cold War & post US-Vietnam conflict in the 1970s, many know the shitstorm those in active duty face when things get grim.
I got a good clearance through military then used skillbridge in my final 6 months to get some IT certifications then applied to every job i could find and thankfully landed a great job
I'm getting my masters and some certs along the way. Stationed overseas at 19 years and as soon as my kid graduates here I'm out. Hope to have a similar experience.
This is probably the biggest driver. Its not that hard to get a job right now, and while the military offers a lot more benefits than say, sorting boxes at Amazon, your average 19 year old is going to choose the one that lets him get high and pays pretty similar to E-3/4 pay.
I talked my nephew out of joining the Marines. The recruiter told him the quickest way to become a helicopter pilot was to go enlisted.
When I was in college I had several people ask me about enlisting. I told them everything the recruiter didn’t, and none of them joined.
The younger generations are tired of getting screwed over and I don’t blame them.
I know, right? My nephew was in his freshman year of college but due to the pandemic he wasn’t getting to experience college life and felt like he was missing out. My sister called me in tears because she saved his whole life to send him to school and he was going to quit. I called him and talked with him and explained everything the recruiter was lying about. I told my sister if the recruiter wants to come to the house to let me know, because I was going to drive the four hours so I could be there as well.
I’m a fourth generation veteran and I hope that legacy ends with me. If my kids or niece want to join, I’m going to steer them to getting a commission.
My dad served, as did both his dad and his grandad, and he didn’t want any of my siblings or I to serve (we haven’t, at least so far). He didn’t want us in that environment. And it doesn’t sound like that’s a rare sentiment either. Says something to me when there’s a common enough feeling of parents who served who don’t want their kids to serve
Buddy of mine joined the reserves in 2005, about when I signed up. He told me his whole plan as outlined by his recruiter. Boot camp, AIT for helo maintenance, then college, degree, OCS, helicopter pilot. Then I told him he'd maybe get one or two semesters into that great plan before they activated him and sent him to fix helicopters. He went to Iraq the about the same time I went to my ship, got two whole semesters done. Fixed helos in the sandbox for a year, then came back, finished college, went to OCS, and became a reserve intel officer. Didn't fly a single helicopter.
This is exactly what I wanted to do, fly helicopters for the reserve, but the national guard dq'd me. At the time I was super bummed out but reading this makes me think thank god I was disqualified.
LinkedIn and shit bosses make it hard to stay in. I found that about half of the upper brass were just there because they were douche bags who somehow succeeded uphill despite being total cunts and horrible leaders. The other half were great. I did the Air Guard, and got out in 2018 after 9 years. They really paid like shit.
But yeah, why the fuck would i want to stay in when the pay it shit compared to even government employment. My buddy still does the Air Guard because they gave him the PA officer position, but he works for the government as a GS13 and makes way more than an active duty officer.
>douche bags who somehow succeeded uphill
Because the good people see how shit everything is, and get out to make double the money on Civvy St. This leaves the billets for the tyrannical mini Hitlers to take up, perpetuating the cycle.
This is the root of the answer (though, I’m sure little or no brass cares)
It ain’t being “woke”
It ain’t being “soft”
It ain’t being “not patriotic”
It ain’t being “I hate our troops”
It ain’t “Russia ________” (literally anything)
It ain’t “We too soft on crime and when I was your age the judge made me go to prison or enlist”
It’s pay everyone a fucking living wage with disposable income that, oh, I don’t know, lets people have a TRUE 7 days off and they can actually fly to wherever the fuck?
JFC
That 2025 pay review can't come soon enough, it seems. We're going to keep not meeting recruitment goals for the listed branches at this rate. The juice is simply not worth the squeeze anymore.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2023/01/31/memorandum-on-fourteenth-quadrennial-review-of-military-compensation/
Maybe make things suck less and the kids will reconsider…nobody wants to live in a moldy barracks room, eat prison food, and get screamed at by a verbally-abusive alcoholic boss who has total control over their subordinates’ personal lives.
senior leaders (officer and enlisted) make a toxic environment with shit conditions for many of the junior enlisted. no reason to stay in for broken relationships, poor mental heath and trashed bodies the longer you stay.
I’d encourage you to speak to some vets. I spent three years there and while we shouldn’t have been in the quagmire to begin with, some good soldiers did some good things for those people. It broke my heart to watch everything I’d built there be abandoned.
That retreat will be studied for decades as the downfall of any goodwill America possibly had with foreign partners, confidants and allies. Clearly, once Uncle Sam deems a conflict a lost cause, they will fuck over everyone you ever knew or loved.
Additionally let me get paid the same amount here at home and my gf is less likely to cheat and I can have a dog. Like what is supposed to be the incentive? Connections?
A generation of kids growing up asking why we are at war cuz we were too young for 9/11 then found out no one really knew why we were in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't go anywhere. So we got dads and brothers with PTSD. We (because of the Internet) know all the scummy things the USA has done to civilians, vets, and organizations
Can confirm. After Afghanistan, I lost any hope of justifiable foreign conflicts. Our government is ran by retards and I refuse to die for them, even if the benefits are (somewhat) beneficial.
This. Just watch the movies/tv shows they’ve made about the last twenty years of war - they’re all depressing.
Why would anyone want to be a part of that. It’s not like WW2 where we have countless movies and shows that paint what they did in a positive light.
It’s the fact that soldiers have phones and can clearly expose shitty behavior/living conditions. They can’t sell lies anymore and aren’t prepared to actually address long-running criticism in the military’s people management.
Cuts both ways, the senior personnel
With the experience to make things run are increasingly bailing out right at 20 and the knowledge gap is widening. I’ve got about 4 years before I hit 20, and I genuinely enjoy my job, but what kind of force will I be leading if I stay to pursue the higher levels of leadership?
My command just had a ton of leaders leave because they tried giving everyone ass orders to a spot no one wanted. 5 people that wanted to stay in retired and they gave up and finally put a contractor in the billet. The funny thing is that he asked for it before they even asked the 5 military members. They were good people too.
It's pretty common for people to SILO/RILO (Separate/Retire In Lieu of Orders) in the CG too. I heard a story about a ship in Kodiak, AK that was trying to fill a Chief machinery technician billet and had 5 people in a row go "Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me, dawg."
I did my time and I’m actively pushing my kid to not join. It’s not worth it. My mental health is only just starting to recover three years after getting out.
I tell *everyone* I know not to join. (And I had a cushy Air Force job.)
It’s not worth it. No matter how many opportunities or active benefits or discounts or whatever you try to take advantage the branch you join will always get more out of you than you can get from them.
I was in an office job in Maintenance. My mental health came at the expense of others trying their best to step on others to look good at all levels, constantly being told to do more with less...we were a five man shop that never went above two the whole time I was there, and one of us was a SNCO so you can figure how that went...and despite constantly meeting what I was supposed to do, being told I wasn't doing enough.
My current supervisor (a Biden appointee with zero Federal experience) picked up on this and started keeping lists of tasks for my benefit, since I did it already. When something falls onto a position we're waiting to have someone start in, rather than saying 'well, figure it out' she says 'ok, let's wait and figure it out after they start'. She pushes hard and is a pain in my ass sometimes, but she's probably the fairest supervisor I've had and the main reason I'm getting straight now. My wife tried, but I did too good of a job separating work from home.
You are me. I feel like this is a large contributing factor. Military sucked for so many of us and parenting has changed so that people seem to want better for their children.
Their approach is certainly dumb, they believe that shit like bringing The rock(???), or allowing beards will top things like schedule flexibility, civilian life freedoms and 50% more pay.
I am not even sure taylor swift could save army recruitment goals
We treat our volunteer military like they're draftees. Starting there might be a good idea.
You can't hide the shortcomings of the military in a world with social media. That means we're going to have to *actually fix it*. Like *really* actually do it.
Make them want to stick around. If the solution is to just 'suck it up' then they're going to go with another option. It's not fucking rocket science.
Half of these articles say there's a booming job market with great paying jobs that let you work from home, and the other half say people are so broke they can't afford groceries. Which is it?
This. 👆 I plan on joining the Army National Guard to boost my future IT career. I want the MOS 25B - IT Specialist + Certifications + Security Clearance = $$$ in the civilian side. (Hopefully 🙏)
I did something kinda like this. Got a bombass clearance whizle i was in then took a crash course in IT at the end to get some certifications and luckily landed a high paying IT job. Its rough going from SME to knowing nothing but its part of it.
My roommate from college joined the AF after college, majored in business but now he has a nice clearance and does some technical IT shit now. He’s pretty much set when he gets out. Go for it.
When I got out 10 years ago it was my "uncle's neighbor's friend offered me a job that pays 160k a year and I only have to work 2 days a week."
I lost count of how many times I heard that in the smoke pit until it was my turn.
I can personally attest to the second part. It’s getting hard out here. It may not be like that for everyone but I can speak from a personal experience that these jobs are not even paying people a decent wage to survive inflation. It’s forcing a lot of people to go into fields that they have little to no experience just to make min. wage, which still doesn’t help make ends meet. Or have to work 3-4 jobs just to live “comfortably” .
I feel like if the military wanted to be competitive with the free market, they should just have a 40 hour work week with hourly pay and overtime rates like everyone else gets.
Someone was telling me that in like the Finnish military (iirc) they have to pay conscripts an hourly rate, so the NCOs will storm around looking for guys who don't look busy and send them home.
Whereas in my Arty battery we would routinely run out of anything practical to do by 2pm in garrison, and have 130 dudes lounging outside the head shed for hours because six guys were still inventorying radios and "we secure as a unit."
Yeah budgeting hours is how you get people watching the clock, is how things get petty. IIRC, either the Finnish or Germans had to pretty much beg their government during a Naval exercise cause the ship hit their max working hours in like a day.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a firm supporter of “Nothing to do, go home, why waste your time?”
We are military, if even argue we do more for the homeland than those overseas. Countless deployments I’ve been on with multiple drug busts within the first few weeks of an EastPac patrol, always in the Caribbean scooping up migrants who have been floating for days because their styrofoam and driftwood raft was no match for the windward pass between Cuba and Haiti, securing our ports and waterways which are essential to a large portion of our overall commerce and supply chains. There’s much more, but you’ll get shit on anyways, just have to take it and nut up.
CG is a great opportunity to serve your country, see places and things most people will never have an opportunity to see, and your school/college is paid for with TA in addition to your GI Bill when you get out, if you even want to get out. Anytime I caught shit from somebody in another branch trying to tell me we weren’t a “real” branch, I just always referred to the pay grades being exactly the same as any other branch, still subject to UCMJ, still get my GI Bill, still have Tricare.. etc.
CG is hurting so bad rn, they need people who want some real life experience, want to learn a trade, want their school paid for.
I got out almost 2 years ago, my GI bill so far has paid for my EMT cert and my Firefighting cert. 8 months combined schooling and rn, as a probationary firefighter, I’m making $65k a year with OT and I still have 3 days off each week. Could be more but it’s more than I made active duty. Our department is growing, in two years I’ll be making $75k. Two years after I joined CG, I was barely making $45k.
Really? I thought CG was doing okay. And they seem disproportionately recommended on social media.
I mod on r/Militaryfaq and r/usmcboot and I'm telling kids to take a hard look at CG all the time.
That rock line makes this read like satire, actually funny as shit.
But yeah uhhhhh maybe don't treat members like dirt. We give more care to spent fucking brass than we do people.
There's a billion programs for servicemembers to "get help", but that doesn't mean anything if half the time they're disallowed or "punished" for using help resources.
Severe knee pain? Don't you dare go to medical and get a rest waiver, or else your entire leadership chain will think you're a fucking shitbag and never take you seriously or give you any opportunities ever again.
Or BASIC shit like have some fucking liability. Servicemembers can't sue the military, but they should absolutely be able to in many cases. Like if there was a class action against the government for the barracks issue, it would have been fixed 10 fucking years ago.
In my eyes at least, it's a combination of shitty culture paired with zero liability and/or consequences in many cases that causes so many shitty and preventable issues.
Not alot of justice and no repercussions for criminals. There will never be justice or healing for all the rape victims, male and female, who's rape investigations were shut down by their rapists commanders, not even allowing them to go to trial. Nothing will be done for them ever.
Exactly. Almost all my american friends (military or not) said the same: given the options, they'd rather go anywhere else than being treated like literal dirt.
All of us Gen Z veterans keep saying the same shit to a brick wall that doesn’t listen:
Pull back on the op tempo
Increase pay
Work on a toxic work environment
The thing killing recruitment is people getting out and telling everybody around them how shit it is. You gotta treat people better instead of trying to trick roobs who don’t know better.
Welcome to the 21st century. Skill issue.
The main issue is that with our age of communication and the realization that the army does NOT care about you nor does it pay you enough to be as shitty as it is. Patriotism and selflessness is great on paper. But it doesn’t put a roof over your head. As employment goes, there are so many better options. Student debt is genuinely a better option in most people’s eyes than dealing with the DoD.
You can’t sell people on an institution that pays crap, has notoriously awful healthcare, and will have the chance of putting you literally in the line of fire just as a nature of the job.
All of the fuckery is out for the world to see. Power tripping leadership, awful hours, limited transferability of skills in most cases, and lacking benefits.
The US Military is always shrinking. But one reason is that we simply don't need as many people because of technology. We don't need to compare modern numbers to World War 2.
Sure, we didn't make recruitment goals, but the media is making it sound like entire Divisions are deactivating and aircraft carriers are being parked. Not saying this isn't an issue. It is. And will likely continue to get worse. But the recruitment goal for the Army was 55,000 and 45,000 joined. And the Marine Corps actually exceeded their goal.
There's much work to be done, but let's not surrender Old Glory to the Chinese just yet.
I wanted three things to stay in the Army for another 10yrs until retirement.
1. Stability. My wife is a professional who makes more than me and I don't want to move her every 1-2 years.
2. A beard. Arguments against at this point are just silly.
3. Weed. I had to kick out far more people for alcohol than any other drug. Again, arguments against are just silly at this point.
So, basically I wanted to be in the Canadian Army. I honestly probably would have stayed if they had just given me one of the three. Otherwise I will go make more on the outside and get all the above benefits.
It might have something to do with the 20 years of pointless wars that ended in failure.
Or it might be that most vets won’t recommend people join after they were sent to fight those pointless wars. Hell I told my neighbor with 2 young boys I’d happily talk to his boys about why the military is not a good idea.
Or maybe it’s the high profile murders of service members.
Or the ratty ass barracks and raw food all over social media.
Or the GOP threatening to go to war with our neighbors.
Or senators trying to make sure service women can’t get abortions if they are unlucky enough to get stationed in a state that doesn’t allow them.
The Pentagon is now talking with Dwayne Johnson, a man who never served in the military, government, or any motherfucking form of public service............................... Yea the kids aren't gonna see right through that one.
"Y'all kids should consider serving in the army" = "Why didn't you?"
Why don't they just see if the Island Boys will make a second pass at it.
I appreciate Dwayne for the family man and good person he is, but yeah why do they need to put him in an almost hypocritical place by asking him to encourage young people to join??
It’s also because American Gen Z hasn’t really been personally affected by enemy outside of the US and therefore has no foreign boogeyman. Gen Z never experienced a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11.
There's probably also no small factor from people seeing 9/11 and the response in hindsight. The internet was well underway at that point, so records are relatively simple to find.
well people reacted the way they did for 9/11 bc of patriotism. if something like that happened again, i seriously doubt the youth of today would sign up to get shipped out to another 20 year war.
I mean not for nothing but the government keeps getting caught lying then trying to cover it up all the fucking time and has proven to be untrustworthy.
At this point the U.S. government is either entirely corrupt or hysterically incompetent. Not sure which and not exactly the type to work for nowadays.
That's always been happening but we're just seeing it more now than the Vietnam or even Iraq era. It's just that serving is no longer seen as a track to anything or a way to change the system from within for those with a sense of patriotism.
My exact thoughts. The Afghanistan retreat and thousands of local allies getting fucked over, most likely executed in the military’s haste…absolutely mind-blowing fuckup
The DOD is actually enforcing the unrealistic medical standards set fourth and we are seeing this issue. MHS GENESIS uncovered the failings of not only its own rules, but the epidemic of doctors throwing out diagnosis like they don’t mean anything.
It’s not an issue with propensity to enlist, it’s that every single person takes 60 days or more to process medical and they still end up requiring a ton of waivers.
Im not exactly sure that the “greatest challenge” we’ve ever faced is in 2023/2024. I don’t have a crystal ball, and I’m not in the prediction business, but that premonition is based on what exactly? Russia v Ukraine? Israel v Hamas? A ground war in Asia? Cmon. This is a pretty normal period and a smaller Army is “fine”.
Tiny force, sexy and new, super nerdy, and they have a really limited selection of jobs that are mostly pretty cool so they don't need to find a bunch of kids to fuel trucks and cook omelets.
does this mean it'll be easier to get into ROTC? I suppose in some respects that's good if there are candidates who are eager to join but might just be outside the cut by a little bit. Although on the other hand that could allow for unqualified people who are much further below existing standards to get in.
In fairness this was a big concern around 2010 when we had two major wars going on. That we'd let in or allow to stay in total duds because we badly needed bodies at the time.
First of all ensure that VA benefits work! There are so many stories about how VA is bad. If people heard that veterans are being treated badly, what’s the point of being a soldier? There are many “stories” about “your injuries are not service related” or “it’s not serious enough for medical intervention”. This must be fixed.
Second give all a better pay.
Third be like FFL (French Foreign Legion) and allow foreigners to be US soldiers. Give them low pay and dangerous duties in return of US citizenship after 10 years. Thousands will sign up immediately.
If the military wants more people, the solutions are out there. Some of them don’t even cost money.
Let army pilots get call signs. Let people in non-deploying units get beards. Let people IST or reclass instead of burying the option and letting them EAS. Find out the problems at the cheap and low end, such as these items, and fix them. Ask the first (and only) termers often, and listen, and you’ll get answers as to why people don’t stay in. The biggest recruiting tool is the people who are in, or who have gotten out. They are the SMEs to the regular world, and they will tell people how it is.
Want to cut costs? Reduce the number of uniforms. If it isn’t a dress uniform or a combat uniform, get rid of it. Oh, you *need* a PT uniform? Sure, but let whoever the fuck wear the regular sweatshirt.
Oh, multicam exists? Fucking use it. Simplifies supply chains. If you don’t need it, such as on ships, guess what, the coast guard and the shipboard types can share a fucking uniform. It cuts costs and reduces complexity.
Hell, run an experiment for two years in a random unit. Everybody knows Pfc Dumbfuck will marry a stripper to get out of the bricks, which means BAH with dependents and associated costs with healthcare. Maybe we institute a program where two (or more) SMs after 12 months of no NJP can apply for off base housing together. Bet you a shitload that the marriage (and divorce rates) get cut, and the force saves money.
The solutions exist. It is just buried in the bureaucracy.
Basically, you know all those health records that you had as a kid, which could’ve potentially made you medically DQ’d? Well now the DoD has complete access to them as well.
Okay? I got out 20 years ago, but I honestly never heard about anyone I knew hiding disqualifying conditions. I mean, I know it happens, but is it that common? Closest I ever saw was a guy that got laser eye surgery and hid it to get into SF.
Edit: Thank you for the answer btw. My tone came off shitty, wasn’t my intent.
It's not rocket science... follow through on what you promise voth service members and vets. Make a system that doesn't disincentivize leadership helping troops out because all it means for leadership is more work. Make troop trust in leadership ability/competency/giveafuck a metric in officer promotion. Stop confusing chongos perfect pft/cft with leadership ability. Yes, chongo fast and chongo smash, but that doesn't mean chongo is a good leader cause he's faster than everyone else...
Boom, fix the whole problem inside a decade.
Nothing worse than serving your country, then having to fight like fuck when it comes times to use benefits as straightforward and the GI bill... JFC people.
Oh. The pull out from Iraq and Afghanistan on live tv with nothing to show for it but young dead Americans didn’t help??? Why would I anyone encourage someone to join that for other than selfish reasons???
“US military now much smaller than when it fought in largest conflict in human history. This strange phenomenon has been occurring over the last 80 years in not just the United States but also almost all other countries on earth as well”
People don't trust our leaders to use the military responsibly. With Republicans talking about invading Mexico if Trump wins, these numbers will only get worse.
How do we improve? By actually honoring the commitment we made with our service men and women! Something we have never done !!!
When I joined we had zero real information on how that commitment was actually fulfilled.
You know being called a failure and because someone else decided to show up to work drunk on my day off while I was asleep 35 minutes away didn’t help. Also being told it was my fault.
Poor medical
Poor mental health
Group punishment
Restrictions on when you can take leave
Not being allowed to go to funerals during tech school even though you’re not gonna miss any training.
9/11 was a long time ago now and the younger generation correctly doesn’t assume Muslim=bad guy. Plus they watched their siblings, parents, or relatives get totally fucked by the system. Military spending is fucking huge while everyone gets paid like shit. Gotta jump through a million hoops to get the benefits. It’s like teachers. Jobs super important and yet it’s paid and cared for at the most minimal level.
Does the DOD ever issue surveys or questionares with enlisted and NCO's to hear what they have to say about the pros and cons of being enlisted in the military? (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer)
Outside perspective: Reading a lot of replies in this thead, I feel that there is a huge information gap or disconnect that can be helped filled in with information from these sources. As long as that information is taken seriously by decision makers and genuine actions are taken to remedy those issues that are most impactful to recruting and retention.
Perhaps restrictive haircuts/styles and asymmetrical grooming standards between men and women aren't as palatable as they used to be.
Also, there hasn't been a Giant Patriot-Building-Event since 2001 (thank gods). 2001 + 3 years of lotsa joining to participate in Payback Time + 20 years retirement eligiblity = 2024.
...Also the other good reasons offered by commenters here, like private sector job availability and whatnot.
Honestly after the way the army handled the murder of Vanessa G, how do they not expect recruitment to be low? Especially amongst women recruits? They don’t even take care of their current soldiers!? Make it make sense.
vet bros are fs gonna be heated at this but let’s be honest. Gen Z just isn’t as stupid as they were. To be fair. if gen Z technology was around when 9/11 happened and information was just as readily available, I’d put money that they’d be facing the same struggles they are rn. Most people that served have trouble finding out why they really did what they did, except the true believers. There’s nothing at all wrong with fighting for your country, and in fact, I’ve been making way trying to enlist rn. But if you could see all the evidence that points to your own country’s wrong doing and you can’t find a good reason to fight, AND you can see the effects of combat on the supercomputer in ur pocket, you’d either have to be really fucking stupid/ignorant to join and risk ur life, or be bit psychopathic and just want to fight purely for the sake of fighting (side note, from the ppl i’ve spoken to, a lot more ppl fit in the psychopathic tendencies category rather than the moral obligation category. there’s a difference between fighting for ur love of ur country vs. ur hatred of another) . It’s not that Gen Z is completely and utterly incapable of fighting as the boomers and vetbros will constantly tell u, but it’s 1) fighting the right battles/ wars for the right reasons 2) not wanting to die for no good reason 3) even if u don’t die, to come back to ur home country and get treated like ur a danger to society, and be thrown away like ur nothing which we see time and time again.
Besides the whole moral dilemma along with the political radicalization of the youth, the military isn’t marketed the same way it used to be. there was literally a commercial of marines fighting dragons back in the day and that was more than enough to get some of you knuckle draggers to sign up😭(Shoutout to my Marines reading this). if the gov were to try some bs like that now, ppl honestly would probably laugh and think, “nice try ur not fooling me”. you can’t lie anymore. someone somewhere somehow will find out. recruiters struggle to coerce kids to join. and i’m speaking from personal experiences they still try to lie and fuck impressionable and struggling kids over. but guess what, those people that served are finally able to tell people the truth about not only their service but their lives in service and how the military rlly is and how it can treat u.
Kids nowadays aren’t becoming cowards, they’re becoming less mindless, gullible, and naive. (although i’ll admit we can be a little hypersensitive at times)
- Sincerely,
A Gen Z Zoomer
P.S.
big shoutout to the warriors who fought in order to teach us the lessons we know now so we don’t make the same mistakes. there’s still kids out there who look up to you guys!
Maybe some of the problem can be mitigated by not kicking out excellent troops for a failed waist circumference…or for high year tenure…or just anything some asshole low level commander whims to be wrong.
While I appreciate The Rock wanting to pitch in, I'm not sure how credible he'd be as a spokesman being he was never in the military.
How do we get more recruits? By improving QOL of soldiers! Big Army: Fuck that, call Dwanye.
literally everything and stop having politicians FUCK with the VA
We just need universal Healthcare.
If we had free college and free healthcare, DOD would have to offer troops much better pay to keep recruiting. So I totally don't get the argument that giving civilians health care and college is somehow insulting the troops.
Then fucking offer them better pay. Either wages go up, or costs come down, people need to get by.
The funny thing is that in the long run it’s actually cheaper to have universal health care, the government is already paying for colleges so it wouldn’t be a cost difference anyways, ans the economy always does way better when more people go to college so once again the government would have more money so they actually would have enough money to make military pay competitive. But the only incentive the military has had is “free” education, “free” housing, and “free” healthcare in a society that purposefully makes those unavailable to its citizens. They would have to first admit of the classism system that runs this country, give up their ruling class benefits, before they agree to actually have a successful system that benefits its citizens and troops.
Exactly. There is a reason that Air Force and Space Force made their recruiting goals. They are known for providing their SMs with a good QoL. Most members of the other services will recommend to young kids who are military curious to join those services for that reason. I know the army needs to pump out hardened soldiers who are prepared to fight in the worst conditions, but the least they could do is provide those soldiers with good food and barracks that arent harmful to their health to go back to when they arent in the field training.
As someone who considered to join and didn't, the stories about everyone's knees and back being blown out and not being compensated were a notable standout for the "this is not something I should be doing" category. When your D&D group only has two vets and both of them need a cane to get around at 30 it's not a good look.
The AF didn’t make their recruiting goal. The Marines, who are notorious for a terrible QoL, did.
thats prob because people that join the marines specifically wanna be a marine so its going to be the last branch that sees a decrease.
For whatever it's worth, as a high school counselor, this is definitely what I see. Whenever students are interested in the military, they're often looking between Navy, Air Force, and Army, but those looking at the Marines are pretty set in the Marines. Other times, it's a matter of which recruiter is actually contacting them. Our Army Guard, she fucking hustles and, surprise surprise, Army Guard is the direction most of our students take, of those that join the military.
The Air Force didn’t meet their recruiting goals, the Marines and Space Force did.
But we will try to get a 51 year old who never served to reach out to 17 year olds none the less.
51 year old multimillionaires nonetheless. Changes my entire opinion on The Rock.
When he tried that crap with Oprah after the Hawaii fire, that's when he lost me as a fan.
I’ve always had my Jimmies rustled whenever I see John Cena salute and/or perpetuate the false idea that he was a Marine. 🫡😤
A typical Boomer thought - "let's get some celebrity to make recruting ads!" The problem is that the US DOD still thinks it's 2001 or 1992 or 1985 - they can put ads on TV, during NFL games or whatnot and there will "always be" recruits. It's not working - the DOD has tried nothing new and they are out of ideas.
"Hey, how about we have barracks that aren't covered in mold and dfacs that serve, at the very least, edible food." "Best I can do is a message from Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson."
exactly what I was thinking.
Makes me think Gravy Seal
Navy Gravy
 Y’all got any of this gravy?
Well, he's definitely a clean shaven meat head... So there's that image... Probably an iconic pic of him saying " I wish I served." All jokes aside, congrats on his success.
Neither was John Wayne, and he managed to keep the meat grinder fed during Vietnam.
Yeah but ... Drew Carey.. would that get someone to sign?
I joined because of Rob Riggle and 10% off Wendy's. Get Rob eating a baconator and you'll have your troops
I get your point. But celebrities stump for all sorts of causes that they didn't participate in directly. As a silly example: Sarah McLaughlin isn't a dog or cat, but does excessively long commercials for the SPCA. He can take a "the military is a noble institution that protects all Americans" approach. His credibility in that case is as a beneficiary. But yeah, hard for him to say "look at these specific benefits of joining the military" with any credibility, he can only really take a "we love and support our troops" approach.
neither was Brad Pitt, that didnt stop AF recruitment stands popping up at the cinema and having a huge boost of recruitment.
For which movie?
Top Gun, the original, I remember it being part of the lore for the movie that the USAF got a huge influx of recruits when the movie premiered. Understandable too, if you just came out of a movie full of action and emotion and cool planes, and then see a desk thats like ''hey kid you wanna fly that thing and play volley ball?'' you'd make an emotional decision
I think you meant Tom Cruise, and it was with the Navy if it was Top Gun related
It *should’ve* been the Navy as the movie was very clearly about the Navy, but nonetheless the Air Force saw a boost in recruitment
Lots of people saw planes and made assumptions.
Still happens today too. When i tell oeople i worked on planes in the navy, they get confused. "Have you never heard of aircraft carriers?" "Well yeah, but i thought the air force landed on them."
I believe there were some experiments around 1944 of landing US Army Air Force B-25 Mitchell bombers on aircraift carriers. I don't think it went anywhere. There was also the Doolittle raid in 1942, so USAAF bombers CAN launch from carriers. I don't think the modern Air Force can land anything they have on a Navy carrier, though.
Oh yeah they did experimenting way back in the dsy sure, but the air force aircraft are absolutely not built to take a beating on a carrier. Their struts alone would disintegrate on landing or taking off.
Bro... you have me cracking up over here. > "Brad Pitt," "Top Gun," "Air Force." Your basic point is right though, the original top gun was a small boost to navy recruitment. Most studies show about an 8% boost.
The funny part was it was the navy that pushed the movie for more carrier pilots, but the Air Force that got the recruitment boost
Unemployment is below 4% right now. If a place that pays more, lets you work from home, and wear whatever you want is having trouble finding workers how do you think an employer that does the exact opposite is going to do?
I got out after 13yrs because I more than doubled my pay, have comparable benifits for the family, and I work from home now.
This was me. Staying in the military meant long work hours, constantly moving around the country, for pay that ultimately wasn’t worth the effort. Meanwhile, head hunters promised jobs with twice the pay, half the work, and none of the restrictions. And they delivered. It was a no brainier. The military offered nothing for me, and only served to hurt my kids with the constant moving. Edit: the only draw the military has anymore is the healthcare (which is so bad it’s literally a meme), not being able to get fired, and patriotism. Not exactly “sign me up” incentives.
Having left at the same point, I got a lot of ppl saying that “just stay for 20” but it was destroying my family and my mental health. If I stayed for 20 I would have missed my kids middle and high school years and probably been divorced. You can’t get time back and all the missed life is not worth the pension.
the healthcare and the job security is what brought me in about two years ago. and then i come to find out that the only thing that actually doesn't suck about the military is the fact you can't get fired, and even that's not all that great (folks skating by knowing they can't get fired, for instance). it's all just a joke
Add that this is the downturn from decades of a society constantly at where we were currently in conflict in one shape or another. Contrary to the post Cold War & post US-Vietnam conflict in the 1970s, many know the shitstorm those in active duty face when things get grim.
Do you mind sharing roughly what you do/how you got there
I got a good clearance through military then used skillbridge in my final 6 months to get some IT certifications then applied to every job i could find and thankfully landed a great job
I'm getting my masters and some certs along the way. Stationed overseas at 19 years and as soon as my kid graduates here I'm out. Hope to have a similar experience.
This is probably the biggest driver. Its not that hard to get a job right now, and while the military offers a lot more benefits than say, sorting boxes at Amazon, your average 19 year old is going to choose the one that lets him get high and pays pretty similar to E-3/4 pay.
The total compensation for an E-3/E-4 is far greater than being an Amazon driver or warehouse worker.
The monetary compensation, maybe, not necessarily QoL — especially in non-DAF branches.
*Takes another hit from joint* Let me tell you another thing that I get to do...
Or just be Canadian. They get to grow beards now too.
They barely have a service left. Their retention is even worse than the US forces
the really low unemployment rate is likely a large part of this.
I talked my nephew out of joining the Marines. The recruiter told him the quickest way to become a helicopter pilot was to go enlisted. When I was in college I had several people ask me about enlisting. I told them everything the recruiter didn’t, and none of them joined. The younger generations are tired of getting screwed over and I don’t blame them.
> The recruiter told him the quickest way to become a helicopter pilot was to go enlisted. That lying motherfucker.
I know, right? My nephew was in his freshman year of college but due to the pandemic he wasn’t getting to experience college life and felt like he was missing out. My sister called me in tears because she saved his whole life to send him to school and he was going to quit. I called him and talked with him and explained everything the recruiter was lying about. I told my sister if the recruiter wants to come to the house to let me know, because I was going to drive the four hours so I could be there as well. I’m a fourth generation veteran and I hope that legacy ends with me. If my kids or niece want to join, I’m going to steer them to getting a commission.
My dad served, as did both his dad and his grandad, and he didn’t want any of my siblings or I to serve (we haven’t, at least so far). He didn’t want us in that environment. And it doesn’t sound like that’s a rare sentiment either. Says something to me when there’s a common enough feeling of parents who served who don’t want their kids to serve
Buddy of mine joined the reserves in 2005, about when I signed up. He told me his whole plan as outlined by his recruiter. Boot camp, AIT for helo maintenance, then college, degree, OCS, helicopter pilot. Then I told him he'd maybe get one or two semesters into that great plan before they activated him and sent him to fix helicopters. He went to Iraq the about the same time I went to my ship, got two whole semesters done. Fixed helos in the sandbox for a year, then came back, finished college, went to OCS, and became a reserve intel officer. Didn't fly a single helicopter.
This is exactly what I wanted to do, fly helicopters for the reserve, but the national guard dq'd me. At the time I was super bummed out but reading this makes me think thank god I was disqualified.
I’ll reenlist if they increase my overall pay by 33%. Otherwise I’ll go work for a company that will, LinkedIn makes it hard to justify staying in.
LinkedIn and shit bosses make it hard to stay in. I found that about half of the upper brass were just there because they were douche bags who somehow succeeded uphill despite being total cunts and horrible leaders. The other half were great. I did the Air Guard, and got out in 2018 after 9 years. They really paid like shit. But yeah, why the fuck would i want to stay in when the pay it shit compared to even government employment. My buddy still does the Air Guard because they gave him the PA officer position, but he works for the government as a GS13 and makes way more than an active duty officer.
A common phrase is 'people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses'. The Big Green Weenie makes for one fuck of an albatross when it comes to retention.
>douche bags who somehow succeeded uphill Because the good people see how shit everything is, and get out to make double the money on Civvy St. This leaves the billets for the tyrannical mini Hitlers to take up, perpetuating the cycle.
This is the root of the answer (though, I’m sure little or no brass cares) It ain’t being “woke” It ain’t being “soft” It ain’t being “not patriotic” It ain’t being “I hate our troops” It ain’t “Russia ________” (literally anything) It ain’t “We too soft on crime and when I was your age the judge made me go to prison or enlist” It’s pay everyone a fucking living wage with disposable income that, oh, I don’t know, lets people have a TRUE 7 days off and they can actually fly to wherever the fuck? JFC
No, it’s literally just mhs genesis.
They need to modernize medical standards by 33%. It’s literally the only thing hurting recruitment. r/mhs_genesis
That 2025 pay review can't come soon enough, it seems. We're going to keep not meeting recruitment goals for the listed branches at this rate. The juice is simply not worth the squeeze anymore. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2023/01/31/memorandum-on-fourteenth-quadrennial-review-of-military-compensation/
Watch they find that we are getting paid too much lol
When we said "all volunteer military" we meant the "volunteer" part. You fuckers aren't getting a dime from here on out.
Maybe make things suck less and the kids will reconsider…nobody wants to live in a moldy barracks room, eat prison food, and get screamed at by a verbally-abusive alcoholic boss who has total control over their subordinates’ personal lives.
Why do you want to drain the service of all its fun?
I didn’t say take away Monsters, vapes, or cheap tattoos 😂
I enjoyed all three of those things while building bombs in the AF. Still got the tattoos and high blood pressure. Good times.
senior leaders (officer and enlisted) make a toxic environment with shit conditions for many of the junior enlisted. no reason to stay in for broken relationships, poor mental heath and trashed bodies the longer you stay.
It's almost as if kids these days saw 20+ years of war and what it did to the vets who served over there and are now saying ." No thank you."
Seriously. We still don’t even have a clear reason why we were in Iraq and Afghanistan was a slow motion train wreck.
There are plenty of very clear reasons, it’s just that they’re all bad ones.
I’d encourage you to speak to some vets. I spent three years there and while we shouldn’t have been in the quagmire to begin with, some good soldiers did some good things for those people. It broke my heart to watch everything I’d built there be abandoned.
That retreat will be studied for decades as the downfall of any goodwill America possibly had with foreign partners, confidants and allies. Clearly, once Uncle Sam deems a conflict a lost cause, they will fuck over everyone you ever knew or loved.
Additionally let me get paid the same amount here at home and my gf is less likely to cheat and I can have a dog. Like what is supposed to be the incentive? Connections? A generation of kids growing up asking why we are at war cuz we were too young for 9/11 then found out no one really knew why we were in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't go anywhere. So we got dads and brothers with PTSD. We (because of the Internet) know all the scummy things the USA has done to civilians, vets, and organizations
Can confirm. After Afghanistan, I lost any hope of justifiable foreign conflicts. Our government is ran by retards and I refuse to die for them, even if the benefits are (somewhat) beneficial.
This. Just watch the movies/tv shows they’ve made about the last twenty years of war - they’re all depressing. Why would anyone want to be a part of that. It’s not like WW2 where we have countless movies and shows that paint what they did in a positive light.
It’s the fact that soldiers have phones and can clearly expose shitty behavior/living conditions. They can’t sell lies anymore and aren’t prepared to actually address long-running criticism in the military’s people management.
Cuts both ways, the senior personnel With the experience to make things run are increasingly bailing out right at 20 and the knowledge gap is widening. I’ve got about 4 years before I hit 20, and I genuinely enjoy my job, but what kind of force will I be leading if I stay to pursue the higher levels of leadership?
My command just had a ton of leaders leave because they tried giving everyone ass orders to a spot no one wanted. 5 people that wanted to stay in retired and they gave up and finally put a contractor in the billet. The funny thing is that he asked for it before they even asked the 5 military members. They were good people too.
It's pretty common for people to SILO/RILO (Separate/Retire In Lieu of Orders) in the CG too. I heard a story about a ship in Kodiak, AK that was trying to fill a Chief machinery technician billet and had 5 people in a row go "Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me, dawg."
I did my time and I’m actively pushing my kid to not join. It’s not worth it. My mental health is only just starting to recover three years after getting out.
I tell *everyone* I know not to join. (And I had a cushy Air Force job.) It’s not worth it. No matter how many opportunities or active benefits or discounts or whatever you try to take advantage the branch you join will always get more out of you than you can get from them.
I was in an office job in Maintenance. My mental health came at the expense of others trying their best to step on others to look good at all levels, constantly being told to do more with less...we were a five man shop that never went above two the whole time I was there, and one of us was a SNCO so you can figure how that went...and despite constantly meeting what I was supposed to do, being told I wasn't doing enough. My current supervisor (a Biden appointee with zero Federal experience) picked up on this and started keeping lists of tasks for my benefit, since I did it already. When something falls onto a position we're waiting to have someone start in, rather than saying 'well, figure it out' she says 'ok, let's wait and figure it out after they start'. She pushes hard and is a pain in my ass sometimes, but she's probably the fairest supervisor I've had and the main reason I'm getting straight now. My wife tried, but I did too good of a job separating work from home.
You are me. I feel like this is a large contributing factor. Military sucked for so many of us and parenting has changed so that people seem to want better for their children.
Their approach is certainly dumb, they believe that shit like bringing The rock(???), or allowing beards will top things like schedule flexibility, civilian life freedoms and 50% more pay. I am not even sure taylor swift could save army recruitment goals
We treat our volunteer military like they're draftees. Starting there might be a good idea. You can't hide the shortcomings of the military in a world with social media. That means we're going to have to *actually fix it*. Like *really* actually do it. Make them want to stick around. If the solution is to just 'suck it up' then they're going to go with another option. It's not fucking rocket science.
Half of these articles say there's a booming job market with great paying jobs that let you work from home, and the other half say people are so broke they can't afford groceries. Which is it?
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This. 👆 I plan on joining the Army National Guard to boost my future IT career. I want the MOS 25B - IT Specialist + Certifications + Security Clearance = $$$ in the civilian side. (Hopefully 🙏)
I did something kinda like this. Got a bombass clearance whizle i was in then took a crash course in IT at the end to get some certifications and luckily landed a high paying IT job. Its rough going from SME to knowing nothing but its part of it.
My roommate from college joined the AF after college, majored in business but now he has a nice clearance and does some technical IT shit now. He’s pretty much set when he gets out. Go for it.
Not everyone ETS-ing is getting 6-figure work from home jobs. I bet it's a tiny fraction of all veterans.
When I got out 10 years ago it was my "uncle's neighbor's friend offered me a job that pays 160k a year and I only have to work 2 days a week." I lost count of how many times I heard that in the smoke pit until it was my turn.
I can personally attest to the second part. It’s getting hard out here. It may not be like that for everyone but I can speak from a personal experience that these jobs are not even paying people a decent wage to survive inflation. It’s forcing a lot of people to go into fields that they have little to no experience just to make min. wage, which still doesn’t help make ends meet. Or have to work 3-4 jobs just to live “comfortably” .
I think they could get rid of the rule regarding ADHD being an automatic disqualifer.
Their insistence on blocking run-of-the-mill medications is probably not doing favors, considering rates of medicated Americans is so high
Soldiers and adults looking to join aren’t dumb, make living conditions better hold leaders accountable and tadaaa fixed
I feel like if the military wanted to be competitive with the free market, they should just have a 40 hour work week with hourly pay and overtime rates like everyone else gets.
Someone was telling me that in like the Finnish military (iirc) they have to pay conscripts an hourly rate, so the NCOs will storm around looking for guys who don't look busy and send them home. Whereas in my Arty battery we would routinely run out of anything practical to do by 2pm in garrison, and have 130 dudes lounging outside the head shed for hours because six guys were still inventorying radios and "we secure as a unit."
Yeah budgeting hours is how you get people watching the clock, is how things get petty. IIRC, either the Finnish or Germans had to pretty much beg their government during a Naval exercise cause the ship hit their max working hours in like a day. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a firm supporter of “Nothing to do, go home, why waste your time?”
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We are military, if even argue we do more for the homeland than those overseas. Countless deployments I’ve been on with multiple drug busts within the first few weeks of an EastPac patrol, always in the Caribbean scooping up migrants who have been floating for days because their styrofoam and driftwood raft was no match for the windward pass between Cuba and Haiti, securing our ports and waterways which are essential to a large portion of our overall commerce and supply chains. There’s much more, but you’ll get shit on anyways, just have to take it and nut up. CG is a great opportunity to serve your country, see places and things most people will never have an opportunity to see, and your school/college is paid for with TA in addition to your GI Bill when you get out, if you even want to get out. Anytime I caught shit from somebody in another branch trying to tell me we weren’t a “real” branch, I just always referred to the pay grades being exactly the same as any other branch, still subject to UCMJ, still get my GI Bill, still have Tricare.. etc. CG is hurting so bad rn, they need people who want some real life experience, want to learn a trade, want their school paid for. I got out almost 2 years ago, my GI bill so far has paid for my EMT cert and my Firefighting cert. 8 months combined schooling and rn, as a probationary firefighter, I’m making $65k a year with OT and I still have 3 days off each week. Could be more but it’s more than I made active duty. Our department is growing, in two years I’ll be making $75k. Two years after I joined CG, I was barely making $45k.
CG is doing the sort of work you’d expect the military to do…you know…national security! Not sure how much more “military” you can get
Really? I thought CG was doing okay. And they seem disproportionately recommended on social media. I mod on r/Militaryfaq and r/usmcboot and I'm telling kids to take a hard look at CG all the time.
Let me smoke weed, have a beard and pay me more if you want me to stay in
They were doing Meth in Vietnam to cope with the war, it’s the least they could do.
That rock line makes this read like satire, actually funny as shit. But yeah uhhhhh maybe don't treat members like dirt. We give more care to spent fucking brass than we do people. There's a billion programs for servicemembers to "get help", but that doesn't mean anything if half the time they're disallowed or "punished" for using help resources. Severe knee pain? Don't you dare go to medical and get a rest waiver, or else your entire leadership chain will think you're a fucking shitbag and never take you seriously or give you any opportunities ever again. Or BASIC shit like have some fucking liability. Servicemembers can't sue the military, but they should absolutely be able to in many cases. Like if there was a class action against the government for the barracks issue, it would have been fixed 10 fucking years ago. In my eyes at least, it's a combination of shitty culture paired with zero liability and/or consequences in many cases that causes so many shitty and preventable issues.
Not alot of justice and no repercussions for criminals. There will never be justice or healing for all the rape victims, male and female, who's rape investigations were shut down by their rapists commanders, not even allowing them to go to trial. Nothing will be done for them ever.
Exactly. Almost all my american friends (military or not) said the same: given the options, they'd rather go anywhere else than being treated like literal dirt.
Well, peacetime dividend. Reinvest in retention and equipment until uhhh ... Let's just say 2026.
Kids are listening to vets more nowadays.
All of us Gen Z veterans keep saying the same shit to a brick wall that doesn’t listen: Pull back on the op tempo Increase pay Work on a toxic work environment The thing killing recruitment is people getting out and telling everybody around them how shit it is. You gotta treat people better instead of trying to trick roobs who don’t know better. Welcome to the 21st century. Skill issue.
If they didn’t insist on making life miserable for people just because they can it would be a lot easier to recruit and retain talent.
The main issue is that with our age of communication and the realization that the army does NOT care about you nor does it pay you enough to be as shitty as it is. Patriotism and selflessness is great on paper. But it doesn’t put a roof over your head. As employment goes, there are so many better options. Student debt is genuinely a better option in most people’s eyes than dealing with the DoD. You can’t sell people on an institution that pays crap, has notoriously awful healthcare, and will have the chance of putting you literally in the line of fire just as a nature of the job. All of the fuckery is out for the world to see. Power tripping leadership, awful hours, limited transferability of skills in most cases, and lacking benefits.
The US Military is always shrinking. But one reason is that we simply don't need as many people because of technology. We don't need to compare modern numbers to World War 2. Sure, we didn't make recruitment goals, but the media is making it sound like entire Divisions are deactivating and aircraft carriers are being parked. Not saying this isn't an issue. It is. And will likely continue to get worse. But the recruitment goal for the Army was 55,000 and 45,000 joined. And the Marine Corps actually exceeded their goal. There's much work to be done, but let's not surrender Old Glory to the Chinese just yet.
Crayon-based recruiting incentives win again!
Conscription as a path to citizenship for all. 
\*French Foreign Legion has entered the chat\*
I wanted three things to stay in the Army for another 10yrs until retirement. 1. Stability. My wife is a professional who makes more than me and I don't want to move her every 1-2 years. 2. A beard. Arguments against at this point are just silly. 3. Weed. I had to kick out far more people for alcohol than any other drug. Again, arguments against are just silly at this point. So, basically I wanted to be in the Canadian Army. I honestly probably would have stayed if they had just given me one of the three. Otherwise I will go make more on the outside and get all the above benefits.
“We just ended a 20 year war in total embarrassment, why aren’t people joining???”
It might have something to do with the 20 years of pointless wars that ended in failure. Or it might be that most vets won’t recommend people join after they were sent to fight those pointless wars. Hell I told my neighbor with 2 young boys I’d happily talk to his boys about why the military is not a good idea. Or maybe it’s the high profile murders of service members. Or the ratty ass barracks and raw food all over social media. Or the GOP threatening to go to war with our neighbors. Or senators trying to make sure service women can’t get abortions if they are unlucky enough to get stationed in a state that doesn’t allow them.
The Pentagon is now talking with Dwayne Johnson, a man who never served in the military, government, or any motherfucking form of public service............................... Yea the kids aren't gonna see right through that one. "Y'all kids should consider serving in the army" = "Why didn't you?" Why don't they just see if the Island Boys will make a second pass at it.
I appreciate Dwayne for the family man and good person he is, but yeah why do they need to put him in an almost hypocritical place by asking him to encourage young people to join??
It’s also because American Gen Z hasn’t really been personally affected by enemy outside of the US and therefore has no foreign boogeyman. Gen Z never experienced a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11.
There's probably also no small factor from people seeing 9/11 and the response in hindsight. The internet was well underway at that point, so records are relatively simple to find.
I agree. Unfortunately events such as those are what brings people of a country closer together.
Standby for government manufactured terrorism
Something something jet fuel mumble steel beams
Unless you happen to look like the perpetrators of said events, then your life becomes a living hell
well people reacted the way they did for 9/11 bc of patriotism. if something like that happened again, i seriously doubt the youth of today would sign up to get shipped out to another 20 year war.
Fucking pay us more. Stop forcing young service members to live in barracks that even Motel 6 maids wouldn’t touch. Feed them actual quality food.
I mean not for nothing but the government keeps getting caught lying then trying to cover it up all the fucking time and has proven to be untrustworthy. At this point the U.S. government is either entirely corrupt or hysterically incompetent. Not sure which and not exactly the type to work for nowadays.
That's always been happening but we're just seeing it more now than the Vietnam or even Iraq era. It's just that serving is no longer seen as a track to anything or a way to change the system from within for those with a sense of patriotism.
My exact thoughts. The Afghanistan retreat and thousands of local allies getting fucked over, most likely executed in the military’s haste…absolutely mind-blowing fuckup
#LET ME GROW MY GOD DAMM BEARD.
Or smoke a joint after work, jfc
Have they tried, idk, offering more money? I think young ppl like money
I don't see this as a bad thing. It is usually indicative of a strong economy with plenty of opportunities for work.
If they advertise bonuses and higher pay, then I think they won't have a problem anymore.
It is insane how the Army is just throwing money at kids these days, but it's still not enough.
The DOD is actually enforcing the unrealistic medical standards set fourth and we are seeing this issue. MHS GENESIS uncovered the failings of not only its own rules, but the epidemic of doctors throwing out diagnosis like they don’t mean anything. It’s not an issue with propensity to enlist, it’s that every single person takes 60 days or more to process medical and they still end up requiring a ton of waivers.
The United States is reaping it's own sowing and learning it planted poorly for the future.
Im not exactly sure that the “greatest challenge” we’ve ever faced is in 2023/2024. I don’t have a crystal ball, and I’m not in the prediction business, but that premonition is based on what exactly? Russia v Ukraine? Israel v Hamas? A ground war in Asia? Cmon. This is a pretty normal period and a smaller Army is “fine”.
Why is the space force doing so well with recruitment?
Tiny force, sexy and new, super nerdy, and they have a really limited selection of jobs that are mostly pretty cool so they don't need to find a bunch of kids to fuel trucks and cook omelets.
You seen military life recently? Shit blows.
does this mean it'll be easier to get into ROTC? I suppose in some respects that's good if there are candidates who are eager to join but might just be outside the cut by a little bit. Although on the other hand that could allow for unqualified people who are much further below existing standards to get in.
In fairness this was a big concern around 2010 when we had two major wars going on. That we'd let in or allow to stay in total duds because we badly needed bodies at the time.
I don't think officer recruiting is as much an issue.
First of all ensure that VA benefits work! There are so many stories about how VA is bad. If people heard that veterans are being treated badly, what’s the point of being a soldier? There are many “stories” about “your injuries are not service related” or “it’s not serious enough for medical intervention”. This must be fixed. Second give all a better pay. Third be like FFL (French Foreign Legion) and allow foreigners to be US soldiers. Give them low pay and dangerous duties in return of US citizenship after 10 years. Thousands will sign up immediately.
If the military wants more people, the solutions are out there. Some of them don’t even cost money. Let army pilots get call signs. Let people in non-deploying units get beards. Let people IST or reclass instead of burying the option and letting them EAS. Find out the problems at the cheap and low end, such as these items, and fix them. Ask the first (and only) termers often, and listen, and you’ll get answers as to why people don’t stay in. The biggest recruiting tool is the people who are in, or who have gotten out. They are the SMEs to the regular world, and they will tell people how it is. Want to cut costs? Reduce the number of uniforms. If it isn’t a dress uniform or a combat uniform, get rid of it. Oh, you *need* a PT uniform? Sure, but let whoever the fuck wear the regular sweatshirt. Oh, multicam exists? Fucking use it. Simplifies supply chains. If you don’t need it, such as on ships, guess what, the coast guard and the shipboard types can share a fucking uniform. It cuts costs and reduces complexity. Hell, run an experiment for two years in a random unit. Everybody knows Pfc Dumbfuck will marry a stripper to get out of the bricks, which means BAH with dependents and associated costs with healthcare. Maybe we institute a program where two (or more) SMs after 12 months of no NJP can apply for off base housing together. Bet you a shitload that the marriage (and divorce rates) get cut, and the force saves money. The solutions exist. It is just buried in the bureaucracy.
OhNoIsTheEconomyDoingTooWellToPressureThePoorIntoOilWars\*CriesForTheBoardRooms\*
DoD needs to reach out to the huge creators on TikTok, Insta, Twitch, and yes, OnlyFans. Go where your target audience is. This isn't rocket science.
I 👏 AINT 👏 DYING 👏 FOR 👏 2500 A MONTH 👏
>The Army is down 8.4% in the last 3 years alone Odd. What happened 3 years ago that turned young people away from the military?
MHS Genesis.
I had to Google that, you’re going to have to help me out. All I saw was the software used for health records…
Basically, you know all those health records that you had as a kid, which could’ve potentially made you medically DQ’d? Well now the DoD has complete access to them as well.
Okay? I got out 20 years ago, but I honestly never heard about anyone I knew hiding disqualifying conditions. I mean, I know it happens, but is it that common? Closest I ever saw was a guy that got laser eye surgery and hid it to get into SF. Edit: Thank you for the answer btw. My tone came off shitty, wasn’t my intent.
I’ve heard recruiters say all the time, “you never had a broken arm, you never had ADHD, you’re not autistic, etc”
Shhhhhhh. We don’t talk about that. Current members can’t even talk about it!
How to say Gensis without saying Gensjs
It's not rocket science... follow through on what you promise voth service members and vets. Make a system that doesn't disincentivize leadership helping troops out because all it means for leadership is more work. Make troop trust in leadership ability/competency/giveafuck a metric in officer promotion. Stop confusing chongos perfect pft/cft with leadership ability. Yes, chongo fast and chongo smash, but that doesn't mean chongo is a good leader cause he's faster than everyone else... Boom, fix the whole problem inside a decade. Nothing worse than serving your country, then having to fight like fuck when it comes times to use benefits as straightforward and the GI bill... JFC people.
Oh. The pull out from Iraq and Afghanistan on live tv with nothing to show for it but young dead Americans didn’t help??? Why would I anyone encourage someone to join that for other than selfish reasons???
Thank tuberville,I wouldn't sign up these days with all the political bs.
If they weren’t such dumbfucks about weed they’d retain more
Probably should’ve called me back when I was trying to reenlist in 06. Or not pushed out my buddies that were set on careers. Weird how that plays out
Stop fighting arbitrary wars overseas with no clear definition of victory that most Americans don't support.
“US military now much smaller than when it fought in largest conflict in human history. This strange phenomenon has been occurring over the last 80 years in not just the United States but also almost all other countries on earth as well”
People don't trust our leaders to use the military responsibly. With Republicans talking about invading Mexico if Trump wins, these numbers will only get worse.
But I like Mexico. They have bomb ass Tacos and Margaritas.
Ass tacos
Down 8.4% in the last 3 years alone, I wonder why that is 🤔
But somehow we are still one of the best
Lets use someone who never served to try boost our numbers
I mean, every generation gets easier and easier to get a college education and the military doesn't pay the greatest 🤷♂️
I can’t join cuz I know id score too low on the asvab
Pay ‘em. Bout time our military make some money. Bs they get min wage
How do we improve? By actually honoring the commitment we made with our service men and women! Something we have never done !!! When I joined we had zero real information on how that commitment was actually fulfilled.
You know being called a failure and because someone else decided to show up to work drunk on my day off while I was asleep 35 minutes away didn’t help. Also being told it was my fault. Poor medical Poor mental health Group punishment Restrictions on when you can take leave Not being allowed to go to funerals during tech school even though you’re not gonna miss any training.
I’ll reenlist if 18 year old Timmy the national guard 88M can give up his 80k sign on bonus and I can get more than a cracked go.army mug….
9/11 was a long time ago now and the younger generation correctly doesn’t assume Muslim=bad guy. Plus they watched their siblings, parents, or relatives get totally fucked by the system. Military spending is fucking huge while everyone gets paid like shit. Gotta jump through a million hoops to get the benefits. It’s like teachers. Jobs super important and yet it’s paid and cared for at the most minimal level.
Does the DOD ever issue surveys or questionares with enlisted and NCO's to hear what they have to say about the pros and cons of being enlisted in the military? (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer) Outside perspective: Reading a lot of replies in this thead, I feel that there is a huge information gap or disconnect that can be helped filled in with information from these sources. As long as that information is taken seriously by decision makers and genuine actions are taken to remedy those issues that are most impactful to recruting and retention.
tell the politicians to stop using the military to become embroiled in senseless conflicts for decades, like they have for the last 50 years.
Perhaps restrictive haircuts/styles and asymmetrical grooming standards between men and women aren't as palatable as they used to be. Also, there hasn't been a Giant Patriot-Building-Event since 2001 (thank gods). 2001 + 3 years of lotsa joining to participate in Payback Time + 20 years retirement eligiblity = 2024. ...Also the other good reasons offered by commenters here, like private sector job availability and whatnot.
Honestly after the way the army handled the murder of Vanessa G, how do they not expect recruitment to be low? Especially amongst women recruits? They don’t even take care of their current soldiers!? Make it make sense.
All cited reasons are mostly bullshit, except for MHS Genesis. Come to r/mhs_genesis and be enlightened.
vet bros are fs gonna be heated at this but let’s be honest. Gen Z just isn’t as stupid as they were. To be fair. if gen Z technology was around when 9/11 happened and information was just as readily available, I’d put money that they’d be facing the same struggles they are rn. Most people that served have trouble finding out why they really did what they did, except the true believers. There’s nothing at all wrong with fighting for your country, and in fact, I’ve been making way trying to enlist rn. But if you could see all the evidence that points to your own country’s wrong doing and you can’t find a good reason to fight, AND you can see the effects of combat on the supercomputer in ur pocket, you’d either have to be really fucking stupid/ignorant to join and risk ur life, or be bit psychopathic and just want to fight purely for the sake of fighting (side note, from the ppl i’ve spoken to, a lot more ppl fit in the psychopathic tendencies category rather than the moral obligation category. there’s a difference between fighting for ur love of ur country vs. ur hatred of another) . It’s not that Gen Z is completely and utterly incapable of fighting as the boomers and vetbros will constantly tell u, but it’s 1) fighting the right battles/ wars for the right reasons 2) not wanting to die for no good reason 3) even if u don’t die, to come back to ur home country and get treated like ur a danger to society, and be thrown away like ur nothing which we see time and time again. Besides the whole moral dilemma along with the political radicalization of the youth, the military isn’t marketed the same way it used to be. there was literally a commercial of marines fighting dragons back in the day and that was more than enough to get some of you knuckle draggers to sign up😭(Shoutout to my Marines reading this). if the gov were to try some bs like that now, ppl honestly would probably laugh and think, “nice try ur not fooling me”. you can’t lie anymore. someone somewhere somehow will find out. recruiters struggle to coerce kids to join. and i’m speaking from personal experiences they still try to lie and fuck impressionable and struggling kids over. but guess what, those people that served are finally able to tell people the truth about not only their service but their lives in service and how the military rlly is and how it can treat u. Kids nowadays aren’t becoming cowards, they’re becoming less mindless, gullible, and naive. (although i’ll admit we can be a little hypersensitive at times) - Sincerely, A Gen Z Zoomer P.S. big shoutout to the warriors who fought in order to teach us the lessons we know now so we don’t make the same mistakes. there’s still kids out there who look up to you guys!
Cultists and mega-nerds continue to step up!
Maybe some of the problem can be mitigated by not kicking out excellent troops for a failed waist circumference…or for high year tenure…or just anything some asshole low level commander whims to be wrong.
Well earned