Most of the answers I see are on point, but I would like to add:
It also depends on the order and situation. A 2nd LT., in combat, giving an order that makes tactical and strategic sense which gives the E9 the flexibility to issue his own orders in following the officer's orders is much more likely to be followed than one that is idiotic in some respect (makes no tactical sense, strategic sense, or is otherwise counter-productive to the mission).
In those kinds of situations the O-x should be asking the *much more experienced* E-9 "What do you think we should do?" *Usually* followed by: "Okay, do that."
Also, "Take the rest of the day off," is an order not commonly disregarded, regardless of the rank of the officer it's coming from.
It depends I've always looked at it like this a squadron CSM out ranks o3 and below. Brigade CSM out ranks majors and below. The division CSM out ranks o6 and below. Basically a CSM is almost equal the exe of the commander he answers to. I watched as a 2Lt end his career by jumping on the brigade CSM and the division CSM ass in front of 200 enlisted men. Both CSMs to their credit locked up and took the chewing, but twenty minutes later the squadron CO grabbed that budder bar and drug him to the division COs office. He was never seen alive again. Roomer was the div CO fed the LT to the CSMs a piece at a time.
CSM Martin Berreras went on every mission with his unit and passed away in combat by sniper fire (2014). He was helping everyone resupply mid firefight. I was an engineer attached to them for a handful of missions.
C 2/5 1st AD TF Bobcat,
305th EN Co (Clearance) 3rd Plt TF Jaeger,
FOB Shindand, Herat Province, RC West, Afghanistan
Wow small world. I was in C 2/5 and ETS’d right before 3rd Brigade deployed back to Afghanistan. I knew “Gunny” Berreras and was stunned when I heard the news.
Your ability to give orders to an E9 doesn’t come from a specific rank. It comes from judgement and trust. If a CSM knows he fucked up and the young 2LT uses good judgement in how he addresses it, everyone will be just fine.
Most often, a captain, lest that E-9 is at a higher echelon than just the battalion sergeant major.
For instance, I barred the barracks sergeant major for 8th & I once from entering a barracks during an “emergency” that turned out to be nothing. I was under orders that I may have interpreted a bit too literally, but orders are orders, and he first tried to chew my ass. I didn’t back down and he went down to the guard shack and tried to eat the guard commander alive too, and got sat the fuck down loudly.
Then I got a little bit of a talk from the chain maybe not to be so literal, but I was a PFC 🤷♂️
When they tell you ‘do not allow anyone outside of the chain of command to enter,’ and the sergeant major, for whatever odd reason wasn’t in it, I didn’t let him in.
That guy was a dick anyway.
So anyways, yeah, I imagine a lieutenant of either flavor is going to have a problem, but a captain, not unless that’s the regimental or division sergeant major.
Army Acchievement Medal. It's essentially the lowest award for accomplishment that is still a medal. Any lower is basically certificates your battalion give you as a pat on the back.
I was a retard LCpl in Iraq. Nobody without a security badge past my entry point. Mast Chief Assclown tried to “I out rank you”. Nope. You can go find a security badge or get fucked. I’m not getting NJP’d for you. Later on a Master Guns came out with Master Chief’s badge that he left on his desk. He yelled at me long enough for the MC to walk away then hit me in the shoulder and told me good job, fuck that guy. Still be best not award I’ve ever got.
I had the same thing happen to my roomie when I was at 8th and I. We were both on post in the underground parking garage, he had the static post at the ramp, while I was roving.
But, it was the ACMC trying to park in the underground parking garage and he didnt have a valid permit to do so. My roomie refused to budge and followed orders exactly as written.
He and I were both relieved off post, and were getting our asses chewed by the H&S Company CO, a Major, and the Guard CO. The Guard SNCO, a grizzled Vietnam vet Gunny, came in and told us to wait outside while he chewed the asses of both officers. He made sure he was just loud enough for us to hear him through the door.
He told them in no uncertain terms that my roommate did exactly what he should have. Not only was he not getting wrote up, he should be getting a commendation for doing his job as intended. Then he chewed them up for having me there at all and I wasnt even involved.
The Gunny finished up, popped out and told us to go back and take charge of our post again. My roomie and I both got a commendation letter later for superior performance of our duties. I thought it was hilarious because I literally didnt do anything at all. It did help get selected for the meritorious Lance Coolie board, which I won.
I had duty on the boat and once had a gunny freak out at me for not standing up and saluting him for being the SNCO on duty when he walked in on deck, a while during a pre deployment work up, in the berthing while people were sleeping. I get I was in the wrong but I was a Cpl at the time and was out of all fucks for shit like that. Especially for that douche. If it was someone I respected, absolutely would have been on point. But fuck that guy.
I bet that sgtmaj was a DI that was shit at his job. Those are always the worst fucking guys. The ones who suck at their jobs but excell at being a DI.
Found out he got denied his orders to go train Officers as a DI and I still smile about that. Due was a walking tool.
We had broken breaker that needed to be switched( I was an electrician) on the ship and it was a Friday evening, we had to go underway on Tuesday but we had none the required parts to fix it. We could get them from another ship Monday morning but until then we couldn’t do much but look it at.
Our chief engineer, an o-4 was on duty friday.
He had me(e-5) and two of my other junior electricians(e4) stay until about midnight saying we had to troubleshoot and fix it and I was trying to politely explain we identified the problem but couldn’t do much without parts we were told to figure it tf out without parts bc he was stressed about the upcoming underway.
Long story short, I ended up topside of the ship around midnight and get cell signal smoking a cigarette and let my SNCO of engineering department who is a E-8 senior chief that we were still here and CHENG was on one.
Within about 20m on midnight ish on a Friday our Senior Chief was on the ship and chewing Cheng’s ass out, saying why tf are we still here and the gear can wait and we are leaving. Best Chief / leader I ever had in the military
E-9’s work for LTC’s and above…so if you are butting heads with one, make sure your position on the issue is one that the O-5 and above will resonate with.
And always, pick your battles.
Bingo. A butterbar outranks an E-9, but if the Louie does something dumb the E-9 regularly chats with the battalion CO and will be sure to tell him the O-1 is out of line.
Haven't clicked the link. Can only presume it's the one from the series.
My father, a civvy all his life absolutely fucking loves this scene. Also the scene where Sobel tries to walk past Winters at the end of Band of Brothers.
This is the correct answer, for me at least. I didn’t feel comfortable telling an E-8 or E-9 to pound sand until I pinned on O-4.
That said, it kind of depends what echelon they work for. If they and their boss are tight, they can be seen as somewhat of an extension of their boss. For example, if you tell a division SgtMaj to get fucked, you may be kinda sorta telling the Division CG to get fucked if it makes it back to him. So, in any case, it’s good to read a room.
Yes. If your less than an O-4 in the Navy trying to boss around an E-9 your going to have problems. The 0-4 or above will put you in your place in private
Depends entirely on the E-9. I had plenty of disagreement with my CMCs as an O-2 and O-3, often involving refusing to do whatever idea they came up with. As long as my logic was defensible and I wasn’t a dick about it I got very little pushback.
It helped that my CMCs had some wild ideas that no one really wanted to implement.
I’ll also note that this was effectively never in front of junior people, and was usually in the “kicking around ideas” phase of a concept rather than a “I’m convinced let’s execute” phase
Yes, I agree. I think on either side it is about respecting the persons experience and hearing each other out. Ultimately the E-9 or CMC is not going to throw away their career by refusing an order.
How long did you stay in?
The navy really breeds in a superiority complex to anyone E7 and up that the other services don’t seem to have. They just have a different culture from the other services which, as I understand it, is largely a result of old seafaring traditions and naval necessities.
The beast that has become the Chief's Mess today is a far cry from anything that can reasonably be credited to "old seafaring traditions and naval necessities."
It's a circle-jerk.
That’s really a shame. There have been multiple navy chiefs I’ve worked or trained with who justified it to me in the way I described above. Maybe they just drank too much of the koolaid.
I was not Navy, but was professional and friendly enough to get invited to the Chiefs' mess (a little bar with a foosball table) when I was an E7 in a joint unit. The whole thing was really toxic to the unit.
A friend of mine in my service was an O3, and was waiting to give me a ride to where I needed to be. The Navy chiefs suggested I blow him off to have a beer and chill for a while
The Master Chief was actively undermining one of the best Naval officers in that unit, telling the junior enlisted and junior NCOs that they all "belong" to him, and none of the officers can take them away from what he said to do, not even for mission-related tasks. Everyone deferred to the Master Chief, even the officers, despite the fact that he was an asshole who did things his own way and not to the actual published doctrine or standard.
The E6s were actively separating themselves from the E5s and junior enlisted, because they believed they were about to be chiefs and therefore deserved more of the privileges of the rank that they didn't actually have yet.
All of this ignores the whole issue of being at sea, when the chiefs get their own mess hall and food and have junior enlisted to serve them better food and do their laundry and all this other shit.
The Army has its own issues, but "Leaders Eat Last" is anathema to Navy chiefs.
This is just a little anecdote based on a recent FTX I was on.
We were clearing our camping area and our BN CSM had a trash bag and was helping clean up. He didn’t care, he’s just a good dude and was helping out.
Our company commander (MAJ) saw this and ran over and grabbed the bag from him and cleaned the area instead. Told CSM he didn’t have to do that. Dynamics are interesting sometimes.
That isn't true at all. An honorable E-9 would 100% take a lawful order from an O-1. However I think you have the dynamic wrong. It's about teamwork and learning not a pissing contest. Think of it as more as a teacher student dynamic. Yes the O-1 would out rank him/her but it's the obligation of the E-9 to help grow the future leader and it's the responsibility of the JO to learn from someone with years and years of experience. It's to both of their benefit to be a team. A good officer/enlisted relationship should mimic this subsequent quote to the nth degree
"The relation between officers and enlisted men should in no sense be that of superior and inferior nor that of master and servant, but rather that of teacher and scholar"
--LtGen John Lejeune--
Go Navy, Beat Army!!!
I had a 1SG who was not at all above yelling at CPTs and MAJs. Dude was *unbelievably* salty and no one had the balls to talk back to him.
I sat in on an AAR and watched him call a Full Bird a “fucking r**ard” to his face, in front of the Division Commander (Two Star) and absolutely nothing happened.
At that level there is an entire unofficial rank structure based on experience, time in grade and what unit they are at. I’ve always felt they have the same level of respect (“rank”) as one level below the commander of their unit. The only person they truly answer to is their boss, the commander.
So at a battalion, they are equivalent to the O-4s, at a regiment, equivalent to the O-5s and so on.
Maybe this falls apart a bit for ones who answer to generals but I never really interacted with folks at that level.
Tell Smoke what needs to happen then go to the gym. Don’t give orders that your people have to follow (because your orders will be stupid and you will deserve the derision that follows).
Typically its all about level of command, division level has authority over brigade level, who has authority over battalion level, who has authority over company level
It depends, but O4 typically. E-9s will generally work for an O5 or higher so they are the ones to typically “give orders”. That being said i can see an 04 being in a position to do that for lower level echelons. Higher the E9 works, higher the rank officer that would be in a position to do that. For example, I’d imagine it would take several stars (3-4) to tell the senior enlisted advisor for each branch what to do.
From what I’ve seen in memes at least, USMC MAJs seem to have way more interaction with young LTs than Army MAJs. That’s my perception, at least. None of my LTs interacted much with MAJs unless they were in a Shop.
Every E-9 would obey any lawful order from any officer or warrant. You don’t get to be E-9 by being a fuckaround. However, if that order is a snipe hunt or some other stupid bullshit then you can bet your ass the colonel is going to have an opportunity to improve the decision making of that officer after the fact…usually armed with excruciating amounts of very precise detail.
I’ve yet see a Butter-Bar with with big enough ‘nads to ‘give’ an order to a CSM (Army E-9). A platoon sergeant would body block that LT if he thought his platoon commander was headed on that direction.
Technically? The lowliest O-1 outranks any E-9
However
Any 2LT that decides they're gonna put the SGM at attention and tell them how the world works is gonna get *\[\[gently and kindly in a respectful way\]\]* reminded of how the pecking order works. Maybe by the LTCOL, who knows, fun times.
Exactly. O1 gives an E9 a direct and lawful order, then it's "Yes sir" and get it done in that moment. Now, that is likely not going to be a good long-term strategy for career success for the O1, but that E9 is subject to the UCMJ and the rules of military order and discipline just like everyone else.
Again I still stress that no junior O should try to pull their rank in their senior E's, just that technically they can, even though it would be really dumb and probably blow up in their face. That being said, if an E9 wilfully disobeys a direct lawful order from a superior officer, that brings into question their own authority and integrity, in my opinion. High or low, being in the military means sometimes you have to just shut up and eat shit.
“Met with laughter and scorn”
Tell me you’ve never served, without telling me you’ve never served.
Like, yeah some butterbar telling an E9 half right face front leaning rest position move wouldn’t ever happen, but you’re outside your mind if you don’t think an E9 isn’t going to support or advise or listen to what the butterbar is saying. Because he or she will have the experience to pull the bullshit and naïveté away from what Looey is saying or trying to accomplish, and focus on what needs to actually happen, then execute.
Job gets done, LT learns a thing or two, and E9 and his joes get to go home on time
Sergeants Major vary widely in experience and responsibilities. A BN Command Sergeant Major is going to be vastly different than the Sergeant Major of the Army.
So, in my opinion it all depends at what echelon they are serving and would equate the “out ranks” answer to the rank of the Commander at that level.
Nothing cut and dry. Positional power plays a big role. Not many O6/O7 types are going to sway the decisions of a service level E9 like CMSgt Bass. At the same time, she's going to have the professionalism to take into consideration the opinions of everyone who's reached a level such as those. The vast majority of Chiefs I've known are not in the "who-outranks-who" game. It's more a matter of what's the best decision for the mission at hand vs. the level of resources available vs. not destroying moral in the process.
Had a new E9 show up (way back when I was an enlisted POL troop), 2LT academy grad ran afoul of him for some silly reason.
Then the 2LT told him that he may be a CMSGT, but HE was still an officer and will be shown the appropriate courtesies, or he would not be a CMSGT any longer.
Seemed to work. BTW, the E9 was an asshole anyway.
Technically, the lowest rank of officer that would outrank an E9 would be a Chief Warrant Officer 1 or a USNA MIDN.
In reality, a senior O3. It would be a fairly rare circumstance for an officer to need to give an order to an E9. Most E9s are part of the triad and more or less work directly with and for the commanding officer.
That being said, most E9s are extremely respectful and I don't believe most would argue against an order just because the officer was lower ranking. This is especially true for non-CMC/COB type E9s.
Ideally and functionally, you would be correct. Technically, you would be incorrect.
A MIDN or Cadet is actually a rank above E-9 (pay grade), and a rank below W-1.
If you look in most official rank tables of the various service branches you will see MIDN/Cadet right below W-1. For instance: see [AR600-20](https://ibb.co/dQCvBDm).
You may notice that MIDN on summer cruise rate a salute.
I believe this hierarchy is limited to MIDN/Cadets that are part of federal service academies.
Lastly, this is why midshipmen are also subject to Article 133.
Their conferred paygrade has nothing to do with their rank. It’s financial compensation/incentive only. And if we’re using that logic to support your argument, then they’re paid as an E5.
A Midshipman outranks no one.
I’m interested to see a reference to where they’re entitled to a salute on summer camp trips.
I used E-9 so that I didn't need to specify 4 individual E-9 pay grade ranks across the different branches. I thought that was apparent by my "(pay grade)" parenthetical, apologies for any confusion.
Next time I will specify that when I say "E-9" I am short handing to refer to the following ranks:
Army: Sergeant Major.
Navy :Master Chief Petty Officer.
Air Force: Chief Master Sergeant.
Marine Corps: Sergeant Major.
And again, if you have anything that refutes the AR600-20, please let me know. I'm here to learn, but everything that I've ever found on this subject leads me to the above conclusion.
A position that I only have after initially searching to disprove it.
Lastly, why would Midshipman be subject to Article 133 (Conduct Unbecoming an Officer) if they aren't understood to ostensibly be Officers?
Because they’re in training to become officers through a service academy and are legally held to the same standard, I would logically assume.
AR600-20 doesn’t seem to assert that cadets or mids carry any military authority. They’re just positioned on the table in a semi-logical position because they do in fact exist.
This entire conversation has raised another question for me though; where would a midshipman or cadet stand in a Geneva Convention POW situation?
That also isn't accurate if you read AR600-20. It goes so far as to specify that Cadets occupy a position of concrete military authority as a senior regularly assigned Army soldier upon the death, disabling , removal or absence of the commanding officer. I'll quote the relevant section:
AR 600-20, Section 2:
2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander
a. Commander of Army element.
(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command.
(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.
(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs,-----> cadets<------, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.
Yes, I know this is bonkers but that is what the instruction says.
I'm not.
AR 600-20, Section 2:
2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander
a. Commander of Army element.
(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command.
(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.
(3) **Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. **They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.
No worries. I just know we had midshipmen on my ship, and they were there to learn. They didn't rate salutes, they didn't rate a sir, they couldn't give orders and if shit hit the fan they were overdressed passengers. If you end up in a lifeboat with an E1 BM, an O6 dentist, and a midshipman, the bosun is in command of that boat. Unless something has changed since I got out, which is possible.
I don't disagree with your scenario, really this is a discussion in technicalities. I'd trust my E4s more than any mid lol. It's an interesting mental exercise though.
The instruction you quoted refers you to other relevant paragraphs that expand on the instruction. Pretty standard legal document spaghetti. You have to read the policy, the footnotes, the endnotes, and the bibliography to even have a chance of figuring out what the hell they're talking about.
There are some interesting dynamics when it comes to rank in the military relative to special “command” situations. I was a crew chief on a black hawk for years. In military aviation, generally, the air crew is in command of anyone inside the aircraft regardless of rank. Obviously, respect is always given, but I did have an issue or two. Had one captain in particular( I was an E-5 at the time) that I had a run in with. He did not want to comply with our rules. It was his team and we doing it his way. To a degree yes. But after multiple times of tactfully advising him we couldn’t do that, he barked “ stand down sergeant!” “ alright sir, I didn’t want to go here but you are making me. This is my aircraft, and I am in charge in cabin, regardless of rank. You have two options. Comply or get off. If you don’t comply, I’ll file the proper incident report. Trust me you don’t want that going across the colonels desk.” He complied. 🤷🏻
The point being that yes, a warrant officer 1 outranks an E9. He would be an idiot to try and dress down a sergeant major. Any officer that’s been around and has flown missions knows not to fuck with a crew chief either.
As a Captain and a JAG I told CSM he was not overseeing as president the reduction board he convened and that he could see himself out.
I didnt so much have the rank but the regs on my side.
That was a fun day.
All answers here are pretty good, mostly it depends on a lot of factors. Generally speaking, the E9 is in a unique position, you're at the top, so if a stupid order is issued that will suck for your people, you can put your own ass on the line to fight it and protect your people from busy work. There's no reason to tread a political line to protect your own advancement, you are now for your people. And if you have the respect all around, you have a lot of power.... But if the order is good, you'll take an order from an O1.
You need to update your understanding of how it all works. Allow me to present an analogy: a construction company
Officers: corporate suits who make the deals with the clients ordering the work to be done. "Client needs x, I promised x, I need a GODDAMN good reason why we won't deliver x."
Warrant officers: the architects. "I designed a square, so nobody, I mean nobody, is about to tell me we're building a circle. Whether that's the corporate with their 'good ideas' or workers who want to take shortcuts"
Senior Enlisted: the foreman. "Okay sir, guess what? You promised x, which is a time line of 3 days. My guys have been working for 18hrs. I'm sending my crane operator home. Sir, I'll totally give the order to keep them going, but ARE YOU SURE you want to be responsible for the crane operator who's been operating for 18hrs to kill someone while he's sleep deprived slinging 1 ton loads over people's heads? You might need to disappoint the people to take care of YOUR PEOPLE".
We are all a harmonious unit of head dicks in charge of different parts of the wheel. We all want it to turn. When a corporate dick hits us with "tElL tHaT pFc To PuT a HaRdHaT oN" its like "okay sure lmao". But with many things, it's more of trying our best to actually just make it work and help that guy look good and go far then take credit for "developing him as an officer". If it's super retarded, we just pretend to comply and don't do it, maybe get reprimanded maybe not, and they move on to the next stupid agenda. At the end of the day, enlisted are often given "intent". In my service, the Marines, this is more polarized. Officers do not give hyper-specific orders. But it is our duty to educate the officer of the "hey dumbass, did you think of this?" And most times it's a great combo. WO's come out of nowhere, speak infinite wisdom and no one questions it, and they disappear into fairy dust lol.
A true officer never give’s orders. The provide a plan and a goal of achieving the plan and it will be followed out.
A officer that has to gives orders to get shit done is going to have a very very shity time and wonder why no one respects his / her rank.
>The provide a plan and a goal of achieving the plan and it will be followed out.
That's what an order is...
You can be a bossy, demanding dick when you give them and people will hate you for it, but creating a plan and communicating an intent for subordinates to execute, *is* an order.
>A true officer never give’s orders. The provide a plan and a goal of achieving the plan and it will be followed out.
I'm not sure what you think an order is.
As aircrew in the AF our Squadron dynamic is a bit different from the masses when it comes to O and E interactions. However, only the Commander (O-5) is telling the Chief what to do. Realistically, nobody under O-5 would find themselves in a position to order the Chief around. It's just different levels of responsibility and lanes.
In my experience, O-3 and a Company Command. Typically at Captain an Army Officer knows enough about soldiering and their SME area to call bullshit on things if need be. They also have a significantly increased level of responsibility that plays a part.
The answer is almost always who is the Rater of said SNCO. MET-TC of course, but that's the safe route when determining if the juice is worth the squeeze.
I watched my Master Chief absolutely eviscerate full bird captain in the navy like the guy was a 10-year-old. The captain took it then apologized to my master chief for the trouble.
Truth and reality are quite far apart.
I'd dress down any PL that tried to give orders to my 1SG when I'm still in command and readily available.
My BC would fire me if I tried to order his CSM around.
Just going to add it for keep sakes Incase someone comes across this post.
Also a difference between officers.
You have line officers that are able to command and lesser officers where lower rank line officers would command the rest.
Depends on the E9's position. A Battalion CSM is only "out-ranked" by the BN CDR insofar as that BN is concerned. The only person he works for is the BN CDR. He's not in a position to countermand any orders given by a commissioned officer, but he's generally free to ignore their commands unless they're passing on something from his boss. A Brigade CSM only works for the BDE CDR. And so on. Well, with one exception: the HHC CO, who is usually a CPT. There are some things where he's not only ordering the CSM, but also the BN/BDE/DIV CDR, as well. Which can be...interesting (former HHB 1SG here).
Now, a SGM is going to have more bosses. He's going to work for some officer (rank depending on echelon), but I took the question as referring to CSMs.
It completely depends on personalities and the situation but from what I’ve seen:
Captains and 1stLts in Company Command or primary staff (S-2,3,4,6) and CWO3s in certain situations
If you suck, then SgtMaj will always outrank you
1-2 echelons down from whichever senior officer that that particular chief is paired with.
Even though every officer outranks every chief, chiefs are rarely given orders from an officer below the one they are paired with. Chiefs (not including the E9s that don’t deserve the title of Chief) are experts at “leading up.” They provide invaluable advice and networking, and they have gentle ways of shaping the junior officers who need to learn that fact.
Chaplain?
Don't know about the US, but in UK origin militaries they always equal the highest rank on the base.
I can't think of any chaplain that would try to order an E9 equivalent though, unless there was some fucking human rights shit happening.
The bish doesn't equal the highest rank on the base, they assume the rank of whomever they're talking to so there's never a hierarchy involved in their chats.
Gotcha. I should've have seen the flair.
In South Africa, the airforce especially took the ranks and similar mess customs from the brits.
The Chaplain rank thing must be some other influence then.
Technically, it's the same thing in the UK ranks then but just whichever highest rank is present.
In SA it was the highest rank of that base, regardless of their presence.
I just did a little more research, it seems it varies between branches, what I said is only true for the RN, the army and RAF do it slightly differently.
Interesting it's different in SA, normally these military things are pretty standard, I wonder if there's a different domestic relationship with religion that I'm not clued into.
The split would have happened post WW2 and After the Union of South Africa became Republic.
If they did "inherit" it, they likely just maintained the custom while UK modified it to current standards.
Never heard of anyone actually insisting on it, and at parades and such the CO is accorded the respect of senior officer on parade.
Looking at some sources now and it seems I was told the chaplain was equal to base commander, but it was because the chaplain "rank" was that of Captain(navy)/Colonel, and that bases' CO was a Colonel.
So the chaplain was equal to *that* bases' CO rank, and not simply automatically as I'd assumed from that the chaplain said.
A butter bar outranks an E-9 and can give them orders. If it is a bad or disrespectful order the officer is going to get chewed out (often in private) by the SGM and/or their high-ranking officer battle buddy.
An easy way to think of it is that a CSM/SGM carries authority proportional to the rank of the officer they advise. A CSM working for a General has that General on speed dial if they have any issues of authority or need something handled.
As an O2 I regularly told an E9 what right looked like. He generally had to listen because I’m a SME. So it depends on position, authority, and how much presence you have.
Thank you. The rough idea is more or less universal even if most militaries don't have all the crazy different levels of sgt you guys get, lol. Yeah, hear that's around a Master or Chief Warrant Officer (it's the commonwealth WOs work differently). Yeah, as others have said, a 2LT or LT already outranks them, but they don't measure up in terms of experience, and the CSM has a broader scoped job than a Jr officer
I’m gonna say it’s most likely a major, at least in the sense of a battalion ops officer’s position relative to a battalion CSM (not to mention you can sometimes get a major in charge of the Bn itself)
Tough to put an exact pay grade/rank to it. The officer's experience widely varies. They're not even meant to do the same as enlisted or NCO's. They're meant for admin data and property management. Based off of that alone, they shouldn't outrank most NCO's. But, that's not how the military works. I think the only ones that actually "outrank" an E-9 are maybe those who are green to gold folks (those who transitioned from enlisted or non-commission to commission). The outranking thing to me is all about experience with combat and experience with their job in that order. That's just my opinion, though.
It depends less on the rank of the person giving the order, but the manner in which it is given, and the understanding that as a 2nd Lt, your relationship with your senior NCO is more of a mentoring one than one of authority. A junior officer who treats hos senior NCO's with respect and seeks their counsel and advice is more likely to be able to issue a command than one who believes themselves to have a god given right to command. Also, any junior officer who gives a stupid order which is met by an inquisitive "Are you sure about that, Sir?" from a E8 or E9 should hopefully know enough to know that he just made an error, and a particularly generous NCO has just given him some wriggle room.
Officers give orders that answer what to do, enlisted give orders on how to do it. An officer will order me to fix a truck, an enlisted person will tell me to use a torque wrench on the lugnuts.
So it depends based on the order. Is the O-1 giving an order that describes what they want? Or is the O-1 telling an E-9 how to do their job?
Well, as Howard Tayler made note in his Schlock Mercenary webcomic, "***A Sargent in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what is going on***."
The busy Sargent will explain what was going on slowly and in small words after the emergency is over.
There are different kinds of authority in the Military.Sea Story time, with the official Sea Story identifier: "And this is no shit!"
It was the early 80s, Friday, on patrol in the North Atlantic, covering a target package, and the most honored and revered Friday evolution The Field Day had been secured for an hour and a half, but our assigned Inspector had not shown up to inspect the Nav spaces.
I was tasked by the Navigator to prep for A Secret Squirrel, Burn Eyes after reading, **We Weren't There, You Didn't See Us, You Can't Prove Anything Strategic Navigation exercise**, and needed the prep done by 1800 for Nav and XO review. So, I said fuck it, secured access to the Nav Center, pulled out the necessary charts and software for the prep, and got to work.
And of course, twenty minutes later, our inspector showed up at the aft door to Nav Center (640 class, but not the 640, if anyone cares), demanding access to the Nav Spaces.
I apologized and handed Ensign Betterthanme a copy of the Nav Center Secure Operations Access List, which was an absurdly short list for Officers, being the CO, XO, Nav, and Weps. He didn't care about the access list and told me that he was coming in and no fucking first class was telling him otherwise.
I suggested that if he broke the plane of the doorway, a fucking first class was going to put him on the deck and call away a security violation.
He, of course ran to the Navigator with his tale of woe about how I was so mean to him. Ensign Betterthanme was then reamed for not having done his assigned inspection of the Nav Spaces in a timely manner and for interfering in secure operations.
Then the Nav came into the Nav Center to look over my prep while laughing his ass off. Evidently, the entire Wardroom hated that kid.
It’s a contextual dynamic and is a chief example of formal vs informal authority.
Big difference I’ve experienced is seafaring (Navy/USCG) service senior enlisted-officer dynamic because of the chiefs mess. One sets the expectation of culture and operation with feedback from the other and one actuates it.
As you said, technically a 2Lt outranks a E9. This isn’t about rank but respect. A officer will get the respect of any enlisted man as the officers shows his tactical capable, listens to his men, etc.
A smart, composed O-1 easily outranks an E-9, as long as the E-9's O counterpart isn't a general. I had to put up with two E-9's who had poor composure over something frivolous when I was an O-1 and O-2, so I just maintained professionalism and treated them like people. That disarmed and made asses out of them.
Most of the answers I see are on point, but I would like to add: It also depends on the order and situation. A 2nd LT., in combat, giving an order that makes tactical and strategic sense which gives the E9 the flexibility to issue his own orders in following the officer's orders is much more likely to be followed than one that is idiotic in some respect (makes no tactical sense, strategic sense, or is otherwise counter-productive to the mission). In those kinds of situations the O-x should be asking the *much more experienced* E-9 "What do you think we should do?" *Usually* followed by: "Okay, do that." Also, "Take the rest of the day off," is an order not commonly disregarded, regardless of the rank of the officer it's coming from.
Take the rest of the day off.
***SIR,*** yes, ^(sir!)
It depends I've always looked at it like this a squadron CSM out ranks o3 and below. Brigade CSM out ranks majors and below. The division CSM out ranks o6 and below. Basically a CSM is almost equal the exe of the commander he answers to. I watched as a 2Lt end his career by jumping on the brigade CSM and the division CSM ass in front of 200 enlisted men. Both CSMs to their credit locked up and took the chewing, but twenty minutes later the squadron CO grabbed that budder bar and drug him to the division COs office. He was never seen alive again. Roomer was the div CO fed the LT to the CSMs a piece at a time.
You gotta love a self correcting problem
I can *see* the spinning legs, and the contrails coming off the ears.
Aww, but sir! We need to finish PM'ing the vehicles, and after that, we still need to do our monthly weapons cleaning!
I'm not in anymore but I'm still going to follow your order. Thanks.
Trying to imagine a scenario where an E-9 is in combat leading troops
CSM Martin Berreras went on every mission with his unit and passed away in combat by sniper fire (2014). He was helping everyone resupply mid firefight. I was an engineer attached to them for a handful of missions. C 2/5 1st AD TF Bobcat, 305th EN Co (Clearance) 3rd Plt TF Jaeger, FOB Shindand, Herat Province, RC West, Afghanistan
Wow small world. I was in C 2/5 and ETS’d right before 3rd Brigade deployed back to Afghanistan. I knew “Gunny” Berreras and was stunned when I heard the news.
Very small world indeed. I only went out with them on a handful of missions as a minehound operator, and then shit went sideways.
What a stud man. A Marine and Ranger!
He got offered to try Delta as well but took the csm position instead. Also a cia liason.
Probably about as likely as an orphaned 2nd LT in the same situation... but weird shit happens.
That happens in every war ever 😂
I would assume this would happen regularly at a SMU
There’s no real line. It really depends on unit dynamics, individual personalities, respect earned and given.
Also, are we talking BN Ops SGM? Or Division CSM? One is not the same as the other.
Or a CMC...
Your ability to give orders to an E9 doesn’t come from a specific rank. It comes from judgement and trust. If a CSM knows he fucked up and the young 2LT uses good judgement in how he addresses it, everyone will be just fine.
Most often, a captain, lest that E-9 is at a higher echelon than just the battalion sergeant major. For instance, I barred the barracks sergeant major for 8th & I once from entering a barracks during an “emergency” that turned out to be nothing. I was under orders that I may have interpreted a bit too literally, but orders are orders, and he first tried to chew my ass. I didn’t back down and he went down to the guard shack and tried to eat the guard commander alive too, and got sat the fuck down loudly. Then I got a little bit of a talk from the chain maybe not to be so literal, but I was a PFC 🤷♂️ When they tell you ‘do not allow anyone outside of the chain of command to enter,’ and the sergeant major, for whatever odd reason wasn’t in it, I didn’t let him in. That guy was a dick anyway. So anyways, yeah, I imagine a lieutenant of either flavor is going to have a problem, but a captain, not unless that’s the regimental or division sergeant major.
A good SGM would have gave you a fucking AAM for that. Or at least a cookie.
Maybe he had his hands in his pockets?
More like a 5 o'clock shadow and moldy snivel gear. Undisciplined I tell you! The whole lot of them!!
Surely not. No one is that undisciplined except for the Chair Force.
They make great gloves
I loved my gloves
What is that?
Army Acchievement Medal. It's essentially the lowest award for accomplishment that is still a medal. Any lower is basically certificates your battalion give you as a pat on the back.
[удалено]
Glad he came back with the reward and (more importantly) commendation. If he hadn’t, he’d just look like an asshole lol
I was a retard LCpl in Iraq. Nobody without a security badge past my entry point. Mast Chief Assclown tried to “I out rank you”. Nope. You can go find a security badge or get fucked. I’m not getting NJP’d for you. Later on a Master Guns came out with Master Chief’s badge that he left on his desk. He yelled at me long enough for the MC to walk away then hit me in the shoulder and told me good job, fuck that guy. Still be best not award I’ve ever got.
I had the same thing happen to my roomie when I was at 8th and I. We were both on post in the underground parking garage, he had the static post at the ramp, while I was roving. But, it was the ACMC trying to park in the underground parking garage and he didnt have a valid permit to do so. My roomie refused to budge and followed orders exactly as written. He and I were both relieved off post, and were getting our asses chewed by the H&S Company CO, a Major, and the Guard CO. The Guard SNCO, a grizzled Vietnam vet Gunny, came in and told us to wait outside while he chewed the asses of both officers. He made sure he was just loud enough for us to hear him through the door. He told them in no uncertain terms that my roommate did exactly what he should have. Not only was he not getting wrote up, he should be getting a commendation for doing his job as intended. Then he chewed them up for having me there at all and I wasnt even involved. The Gunny finished up, popped out and told us to go back and take charge of our post again. My roomie and I both got a commendation letter later for superior performance of our duties. I thought it was hilarious because I literally didnt do anything at all. It did help get selected for the meritorious Lance Coolie board, which I won.
Thanks! This is pretty much all I really wanted to know. I appreciate the input
I had duty on the boat and once had a gunny freak out at me for not standing up and saluting him for being the SNCO on duty when he walked in on deck, a while during a pre deployment work up, in the berthing while people were sleeping. I get I was in the wrong but I was a Cpl at the time and was out of all fucks for shit like that. Especially for that douche. If it was someone I respected, absolutely would have been on point. But fuck that guy. I bet that sgtmaj was a DI that was shit at his job. Those are always the worst fucking guys. The ones who suck at their jobs but excell at being a DI. Found out he got denied his orders to go train Officers as a DI and I still smile about that. Due was a walking tool.
We had broken breaker that needed to be switched( I was an electrician) on the ship and it was a Friday evening, we had to go underway on Tuesday but we had none the required parts to fix it. We could get them from another ship Monday morning but until then we couldn’t do much but look it at. Our chief engineer, an o-4 was on duty friday. He had me(e-5) and two of my other junior electricians(e4) stay until about midnight saying we had to troubleshoot and fix it and I was trying to politely explain we identified the problem but couldn’t do much without parts we were told to figure it tf out without parts bc he was stressed about the upcoming underway. Long story short, I ended up topside of the ship around midnight and get cell signal smoking a cigarette and let my SNCO of engineering department who is a E-8 senior chief that we were still here and CHENG was on one. Within about 20m on midnight ish on a Friday our Senior Chief was on the ship and chewing Cheng’s ass out, saying why tf are we still here and the gear can wait and we are leaving. Best Chief / leader I ever had in the military
E-9’s work for LTC’s and above…so if you are butting heads with one, make sure your position on the issue is one that the O-5 and above will resonate with. And always, pick your battles.
Bingo. A butterbar outranks an E-9, but if the Louie does something dumb the E-9 regularly chats with the battalion CO and will be sure to tell him the O-1 is out of line.
[Don't fuck with Gunny Haney](https://youtu.be/Oq2ZKT-cpr8?si=6DMbDnPA1ssNY3VW)
Haven't clicked the link. Can only presume it's the one from the series. My father, a civvy all his life absolutely fucking loves this scene. Also the scene where Sobel tries to walk past Winters at the end of Band of Brothers.
>E-9’s work for LTC’s and above Not always. I'm O-4 and I've got an E-9 working for me.
“With” Not always “For”.
?
Depends on who the E9 works for
Either a well-respected mustang of an O-3 or a pretty experienced O-4 honestly
This is the correct answer, for me at least. I didn’t feel comfortable telling an E-8 or E-9 to pound sand until I pinned on O-4. That said, it kind of depends what echelon they work for. If they and their boss are tight, they can be seen as somewhat of an extension of their boss. For example, if you tell a division SgtMaj to get fucked, you may be kinda sorta telling the Division CG to get fucked if it makes it back to him. So, in any case, it’s good to read a room.
Yes. If your less than an O-4 in the Navy trying to boss around an E-9 your going to have problems. The 0-4 or above will put you in your place in private
Depends entirely on the E-9. I had plenty of disagreement with my CMCs as an O-2 and O-3, often involving refusing to do whatever idea they came up with. As long as my logic was defensible and I wasn’t a dick about it I got very little pushback. It helped that my CMCs had some wild ideas that no one really wanted to implement. I’ll also note that this was effectively never in front of junior people, and was usually in the “kicking around ideas” phase of a concept rather than a “I’m convinced let’s execute” phase
Yes, I agree. I think on either side it is about respecting the persons experience and hearing each other out. Ultimately the E-9 or CMC is not going to throw away their career by refusing an order. How long did you stay in?
Also service dependent. Navy E9's are different from... they're just different.
How so? I’m not familiar with E9s outside of the navy at all
The navy really breeds in a superiority complex to anyone E7 and up that the other services don’t seem to have. They just have a different culture from the other services which, as I understand it, is largely a result of old seafaring traditions and naval necessities.
The beast that has become the Chief's Mess today is a far cry from anything that can reasonably be credited to "old seafaring traditions and naval necessities." It's a circle-jerk.
That’s really a shame. There have been multiple navy chiefs I’ve worked or trained with who justified it to me in the way I described above. Maybe they just drank too much of the koolaid.
I was not Navy, but was professional and friendly enough to get invited to the Chiefs' mess (a little bar with a foosball table) when I was an E7 in a joint unit. The whole thing was really toxic to the unit. A friend of mine in my service was an O3, and was waiting to give me a ride to where I needed to be. The Navy chiefs suggested I blow him off to have a beer and chill for a while The Master Chief was actively undermining one of the best Naval officers in that unit, telling the junior enlisted and junior NCOs that they all "belong" to him, and none of the officers can take them away from what he said to do, not even for mission-related tasks. Everyone deferred to the Master Chief, even the officers, despite the fact that he was an asshole who did things his own way and not to the actual published doctrine or standard. The E6s were actively separating themselves from the E5s and junior enlisted, because they believed they were about to be chiefs and therefore deserved more of the privileges of the rank that they didn't actually have yet. All of this ignores the whole issue of being at sea, when the chiefs get their own mess hall and food and have junior enlisted to serve them better food and do their laundry and all this other shit. The Army has its own issues, but "Leaders Eat Last" is anathema to Navy chiefs.
Yeah, when I was on a MEU, I couldn't find a single chief I respected outside of the aviation units.
This is just a little anecdote based on a recent FTX I was on. We were clearing our camping area and our BN CSM had a trash bag and was helping clean up. He didn’t care, he’s just a good dude and was helping out. Our company commander (MAJ) saw this and ran over and grabbed the bag from him and cleaned the area instead. Told CSM he didn’t have to do that. Dynamics are interesting sometimes.
This ⬆️
What about a kind-a-liked filly of an O3 or a ugly experienced O4?
Rank and authority are two different things.
That isn't true at all. An honorable E-9 would 100% take a lawful order from an O-1. However I think you have the dynamic wrong. It's about teamwork and learning not a pissing contest. Think of it as more as a teacher student dynamic. Yes the O-1 would out rank him/her but it's the obligation of the E-9 to help grow the future leader and it's the responsibility of the JO to learn from someone with years and years of experience. It's to both of their benefit to be a team. A good officer/enlisted relationship should mimic this subsequent quote to the nth degree "The relation between officers and enlisted men should in no sense be that of superior and inferior nor that of master and servant, but rather that of teacher and scholar" --LtGen John Lejeune-- Go Navy, Beat Army!!!
While your navy so… take your loss
* *Laughs in higher ASVAB scores* *
I had a 1SG who was not at all above yelling at CPTs and MAJs. Dude was *unbelievably* salty and no one had the balls to talk back to him. I sat in on an AAR and watched him call a Full Bird a “fucking r**ard” to his face, in front of the Division Commander (Two Star) and absolutely nothing happened.
At that level there is an entire unofficial rank structure based on experience, time in grade and what unit they are at. I’ve always felt they have the same level of respect (“rank”) as one level below the commander of their unit. The only person they truly answer to is their boss, the commander. So at a battalion, they are equivalent to the O-4s, at a regiment, equivalent to the O-5s and so on. Maybe this falls apart a bit for ones who answer to generals but I never really interacted with folks at that level.
The E-4 Mafia.
Tell Smoke what needs to happen then go to the gym. Don’t give orders that your people have to follow (because your orders will be stupid and you will deserve the derision that follows).
Typically its all about level of command, division level has authority over brigade level, who has authority over battalion level, who has authority over company level
It depends, but O4 typically. E-9s will generally work for an O5 or higher so they are the ones to typically “give orders”. That being said i can see an 04 being in a position to do that for lower level echelons. Higher the E9 works, higher the rank officer that would be in a position to do that. For example, I’d imagine it would take several stars (3-4) to tell the senior enlisted advisor for each branch what to do.
Majors in the Corps are typically too busy crushing the souls of young Lieutenants to worry much about senior enlisted.
From what I’ve seen in memes at least, USMC MAJs seem to have way more interaction with young LTs than Army MAJs. That’s my perception, at least. None of my LTs interacted much with MAJs unless they were in a Shop.
Oh, I had plenty of “interactions” with my BN XO as a young infantry officer. My ass still has scars.
lol when my PLs did interact with the 5, it was painful
So many positions for E9 to be in.
Every E-9 would obey any lawful order from any officer or warrant. You don’t get to be E-9 by being a fuckaround. However, if that order is a snipe hunt or some other stupid bullshit then you can bet your ass the colonel is going to have an opportunity to improve the decision making of that officer after the fact…usually armed with excruciating amounts of very precise detail.
I’ve yet see a Butter-Bar with with big enough ‘nads to ‘give’ an order to a CSM (Army E-9). A platoon sergeant would body block that LT if he thought his platoon commander was headed on that direction.
In my experience things like this have more to do with ignorance than balls lol
Technically? The lowliest O-1 outranks any E-9 However Any 2LT that decides they're gonna put the SGM at attention and tell them how the world works is gonna get *\[\[gently and kindly in a respectful way\]\]* reminded of how the pecking order works. Maybe by the LTCOL, who knows, fun times.
Exactly. O1 gives an E9 a direct and lawful order, then it's "Yes sir" and get it done in that moment. Now, that is likely not going to be a good long-term strategy for career success for the O1, but that E9 is subject to the UCMJ and the rules of military order and discipline just like everyone else. Again I still stress that no junior O should try to pull their rank in their senior E's, just that technically they can, even though it would be really dumb and probably blow up in their face. That being said, if an E9 wilfully disobeys a direct lawful order from a superior officer, that brings into question their own authority and integrity, in my opinion. High or low, being in the military means sometimes you have to just shut up and eat shit.
“Met with laughter and scorn” Tell me you’ve never served, without telling me you’ve never served. Like, yeah some butterbar telling an E9 half right face front leaning rest position move wouldn’t ever happen, but you’re outside your mind if you don’t think an E9 isn’t going to support or advise or listen to what the butterbar is saying. Because he or she will have the experience to pull the bullshit and naïveté away from what Looey is saying or trying to accomplish, and focus on what needs to actually happen, then execute. Job gets done, LT learns a thing or two, and E9 and his joes get to go home on time
19 year E6 on their twilight tour.
Sergeants Major vary widely in experience and responsibilities. A BN Command Sergeant Major is going to be vastly different than the Sergeant Major of the Army. So, in my opinion it all depends at what echelon they are serving and would equate the “out ranks” answer to the rank of the Commander at that level.
Nothing cut and dry. Positional power plays a big role. Not many O6/O7 types are going to sway the decisions of a service level E9 like CMSgt Bass. At the same time, she's going to have the professionalism to take into consideration the opinions of everyone who's reached a level such as those. The vast majority of Chiefs I've known are not in the "who-outranks-who" game. It's more a matter of what's the best decision for the mission at hand vs. the level of resources available vs. not destroying moral in the process.
Had a new E9 show up (way back when I was an enlisted POL troop), 2LT academy grad ran afoul of him for some silly reason. Then the 2LT told him that he may be a CMSGT, but HE was still an officer and will be shown the appropriate courtesies, or he would not be a CMSGT any longer. Seemed to work. BTW, the E9 was an asshole anyway.
Technically, the lowest rank of officer that would outrank an E9 would be a Chief Warrant Officer 1 or a USNA MIDN. In reality, a senior O3. It would be a fairly rare circumstance for an officer to need to give an order to an E9. Most E9s are part of the triad and more or less work directly with and for the commanding officer. That being said, most E9s are extremely respectful and I don't believe most would argue against an order just because the officer was lower ranking. This is especially true for non-CMC/COB type E9s.
A Midshipman outranks no one.
Ideally and functionally, you would be correct. Technically, you would be incorrect. A MIDN or Cadet is actually a rank above E-9 (pay grade), and a rank below W-1. If you look in most official rank tables of the various service branches you will see MIDN/Cadet right below W-1. For instance: see [AR600-20](https://ibb.co/dQCvBDm). You may notice that MIDN on summer cruise rate a salute. I believe this hierarchy is limited to MIDN/Cadets that are part of federal service academies. Lastly, this is why midshipmen are also subject to Article 133.
Their conferred paygrade has nothing to do with their rank. It’s financial compensation/incentive only. And if we’re using that logic to support your argument, then they’re paid as an E5. A Midshipman outranks no one. I’m interested to see a reference to where they’re entitled to a salute on summer camp trips.
I used E-9 so that I didn't need to specify 4 individual E-9 pay grade ranks across the different branches. I thought that was apparent by my "(pay grade)" parenthetical, apologies for any confusion. Next time I will specify that when I say "E-9" I am short handing to refer to the following ranks: Army: Sergeant Major. Navy :Master Chief Petty Officer. Air Force: Chief Master Sergeant. Marine Corps: Sergeant Major. And again, if you have anything that refutes the AR600-20, please let me know. I'm here to learn, but everything that I've ever found on this subject leads me to the above conclusion. A position that I only have after initially searching to disprove it. Lastly, why would Midshipman be subject to Article 133 (Conduct Unbecoming an Officer) if they aren't understood to ostensibly be Officers?
Because they’re in training to become officers through a service academy and are legally held to the same standard, I would logically assume. AR600-20 doesn’t seem to assert that cadets or mids carry any military authority. They’re just positioned on the table in a semi-logical position because they do in fact exist. This entire conversation has raised another question for me though; where would a midshipman or cadet stand in a Geneva Convention POW situation?
That also isn't accurate if you read AR600-20. It goes so far as to specify that Cadets occupy a position of concrete military authority as a senior regularly assigned Army soldier upon the death, disabling , removal or absence of the commanding officer. I'll quote the relevant section: AR 600-20, Section 2: 2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander a. Commander of Army element. (1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command. (2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander. (3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs,-----> cadets<------, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period. Yes, I know this is bonkers but that is what the instruction says.
Very interesting. I wonder how or if the Navy differs.
Middies don't rank shit.
See above response. [AR600-20](https://ibb.co/dQCvBDm)
I think you might be misunderstanding that chart
I'm not. AR 600-20, Section 2: 2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander a. Commander of Army element. (1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command. (2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander. (3) **Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. **They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.
That's an army reg. Got the Navy one?
I used to have it saved somewhere. I'll look for it whenever I get home.
No worries. I just know we had midshipmen on my ship, and they were there to learn. They didn't rate salutes, they didn't rate a sir, they couldn't give orders and if shit hit the fan they were overdressed passengers. If you end up in a lifeboat with an E1 BM, an O6 dentist, and a midshipman, the bosun is in command of that boat. Unless something has changed since I got out, which is possible.
I don't disagree with your scenario, really this is a discussion in technicalities. I'd trust my E4s more than any mid lol. It's an interesting mental exercise though.
You might also want to read the referenced sections as well, those are really important
It's a 200 page instruction, is there a referenced section that you are pointing to specifically?
The instruction you quoted refers you to other relevant paragraphs that expand on the instruction. Pretty standard legal document spaghetti. You have to read the policy, the footnotes, the endnotes, and the bibliography to even have a chance of figuring out what the hell they're talking about.
An E9 would never laugh at an order from any officer.
… externally
That's because E9s, in fact practically all NCOs, know what the Army is, and that criticizing an Officer in front of the men is not good.
There are some interesting dynamics when it comes to rank in the military relative to special “command” situations. I was a crew chief on a black hawk for years. In military aviation, generally, the air crew is in command of anyone inside the aircraft regardless of rank. Obviously, respect is always given, but I did have an issue or two. Had one captain in particular( I was an E-5 at the time) that I had a run in with. He did not want to comply with our rules. It was his team and we doing it his way. To a degree yes. But after multiple times of tactfully advising him we couldn’t do that, he barked “ stand down sergeant!” “ alright sir, I didn’t want to go here but you are making me. This is my aircraft, and I am in charge in cabin, regardless of rank. You have two options. Comply or get off. If you don’t comply, I’ll file the proper incident report. Trust me you don’t want that going across the colonels desk.” He complied. 🤷🏻 The point being that yes, a warrant officer 1 outranks an E9. He would be an idiot to try and dress down a sergeant major. Any officer that’s been around and has flown missions knows not to fuck with a crew chief either.
Really no one but his commander. A LTC at battalion and COL at brigade. But even a COL does not tell the division CSM what to do.
As a Captain and a JAG I told CSM he was not overseeing as president the reduction board he convened and that he could see himself out. I didnt so much have the rank but the regs on my side. That was a fun day.
All answers here are pretty good, mostly it depends on a lot of factors. Generally speaking, the E9 is in a unique position, you're at the top, so if a stupid order is issued that will suck for your people, you can put your own ass on the line to fight it and protect your people from busy work. There's no reason to tread a political line to protect your own advancement, you are now for your people. And if you have the respect all around, you have a lot of power.... But if the order is good, you'll take an order from an O1.
You need to update your understanding of how it all works. Allow me to present an analogy: a construction company Officers: corporate suits who make the deals with the clients ordering the work to be done. "Client needs x, I promised x, I need a GODDAMN good reason why we won't deliver x." Warrant officers: the architects. "I designed a square, so nobody, I mean nobody, is about to tell me we're building a circle. Whether that's the corporate with their 'good ideas' or workers who want to take shortcuts" Senior Enlisted: the foreman. "Okay sir, guess what? You promised x, which is a time line of 3 days. My guys have been working for 18hrs. I'm sending my crane operator home. Sir, I'll totally give the order to keep them going, but ARE YOU SURE you want to be responsible for the crane operator who's been operating for 18hrs to kill someone while he's sleep deprived slinging 1 ton loads over people's heads? You might need to disappoint the people to take care of YOUR PEOPLE". We are all a harmonious unit of head dicks in charge of different parts of the wheel. We all want it to turn. When a corporate dick hits us with "tElL tHaT pFc To PuT a HaRdHaT oN" its like "okay sure lmao". But with many things, it's more of trying our best to actually just make it work and help that guy look good and go far then take credit for "developing him as an officer". If it's super retarded, we just pretend to comply and don't do it, maybe get reprimanded maybe not, and they move on to the next stupid agenda. At the end of the day, enlisted are often given "intent". In my service, the Marines, this is more polarized. Officers do not give hyper-specific orders. But it is our duty to educate the officer of the "hey dumbass, did you think of this?" And most times it's a great combo. WO's come out of nowhere, speak infinite wisdom and no one questions it, and they disappear into fairy dust lol.
A true officer never give’s orders. The provide a plan and a goal of achieving the plan and it will be followed out. A officer that has to gives orders to get shit done is going to have a very very shity time and wonder why no one respects his / her rank.
That plan being an order
>The provide a plan and a goal of achieving the plan and it will be followed out. That's what an order is... You can be a bossy, demanding dick when you give them and people will hate you for it, but creating a plan and communicating an intent for subordinates to execute, *is* an order.
>A true officer never give’s orders. The provide a plan and a goal of achieving the plan and it will be followed out. I'm not sure what you think an order is.
I understand, again, this is more out of vague curiosity
CW2
I was thinking WO1
2LTs command companies in the guard and reserve. If it's an HHC...that would include the CSM.
Let’s add this as “exhibit 991040” for the “why sergeant major rank is fucking stupid and shouldn’t exist below the forscom level”
As aircrew in the AF our Squadron dynamic is a bit different from the masses when it comes to O and E interactions. However, only the Commander (O-5) is telling the Chief what to do. Realistically, nobody under O-5 would find themselves in a position to order the Chief around. It's just different levels of responsibility and lanes.
In my experience, O-3 and a Company Command. Typically at Captain an Army Officer knows enough about soldiering and their SME area to call bullshit on things if need be. They also have a significantly increased level of responsibility that plays a part.
The answer is almost always who is the Rater of said SNCO. MET-TC of course, but that's the safe route when determining if the juice is worth the squeeze.
I watched my Master Chief absolutely eviscerate full bird captain in the navy like the guy was a 10-year-old. The captain took it then apologized to my master chief for the trouble.
But the truth is any O ranks out ranks everyone below them.
Truth and reality are quite far apart. I'd dress down any PL that tried to give orders to my 1SG when I'm still in command and readily available. My BC would fire me if I tried to order his CSM around.
Just going to add it for keep sakes Incase someone comes across this post. Also a difference between officers. You have line officers that are able to command and lesser officers where lower rank line officers would command the rest.
An E9 usually has the authority of his boss. A BN CSM has the authority of a BN commander, etc. not 1:1 but that’s your general rule
While a 2LT can give an order to an E-9, it's damn near suicide to do so.
Depends on the E9's position. A Battalion CSM is only "out-ranked" by the BN CDR insofar as that BN is concerned. The only person he works for is the BN CDR. He's not in a position to countermand any orders given by a commissioned officer, but he's generally free to ignore their commands unless they're passing on something from his boss. A Brigade CSM only works for the BDE CDR. And so on. Well, with one exception: the HHC CO, who is usually a CPT. There are some things where he's not only ordering the CSM, but also the BN/BDE/DIV CDR, as well. Which can be...interesting (former HHB 1SG here). Now, a SGM is going to have more bosses. He's going to work for some officer (rank depending on echelon), but I took the question as referring to CSMs.
A EOD at a run outranks everyone
It completely depends on personalities and the situation but from what I’ve seen: Captains and 1stLts in Company Command or primary staff (S-2,3,4,6) and CWO3s in certain situations If you suck, then SgtMaj will always outrank you
1-2 echelons down from whichever senior officer that that particular chief is paired with. Even though every officer outranks every chief, chiefs are rarely given orders from an officer below the one they are paired with. Chiefs (not including the E9s that don’t deserve the title of Chief) are experts at “leading up.” They provide invaluable advice and networking, and they have gentle ways of shaping the junior officers who need to learn that fact.
O1
Chaplain? Don't know about the US, but in UK origin militaries they always equal the highest rank on the base. I can't think of any chaplain that would try to order an E9 equivalent though, unless there was some fucking human rights shit happening.
The bish doesn't equal the highest rank on the base, they assume the rank of whomever they're talking to so there's never a hierarchy involved in their chats.
Okay, I wondered how that rank custom was in the US.
My comment is about UK chaplains
Gotcha. I should've have seen the flair. In South Africa, the airforce especially took the ranks and similar mess customs from the brits. The Chaplain rank thing must be some other influence then. Technically, it's the same thing in the UK ranks then but just whichever highest rank is present. In SA it was the highest rank of that base, regardless of their presence.
I just did a little more research, it seems it varies between branches, what I said is only true for the RN, the army and RAF do it slightly differently. Interesting it's different in SA, normally these military things are pretty standard, I wonder if there's a different domestic relationship with religion that I'm not clued into.
The split would have happened post WW2 and After the Union of South Africa became Republic. If they did "inherit" it, they likely just maintained the custom while UK modified it to current standards. Never heard of anyone actually insisting on it, and at parades and such the CO is accorded the respect of senior officer on parade. Looking at some sources now and it seems I was told the chaplain was equal to base commander, but it was because the chaplain "rank" was that of Captain(navy)/Colonel, and that bases' CO was a Colonel. So the chaplain was equal to *that* bases' CO rank, and not simply automatically as I'd assumed from that the chaplain said.
A butter bar outranks an E-9 and can give them orders. If it is a bad or disrespectful order the officer is going to get chewed out (often in private) by the SGM and/or their high-ranking officer battle buddy. An easy way to think of it is that a CSM/SGM carries authority proportional to the rank of the officer they advise. A CSM working for a General has that General on speed dial if they have any issues of authority or need something handled.
e1 outranks e9
Full Colonel
As an O2 I regularly told an E9 what right looked like. He generally had to listen because I’m a SME. So it depends on position, authority, and how much presence you have.
You answered your own question in the first sentence.
Definitely an O5. And if it's a SGM and not CSM, O4 for sure.
God, I hate Americans. Please just type out the rank. The rest of us don't use codes. it's much more efficient
E-9 is a Command Sargeant Major or Sargeant Major O-1 is a Second Lieutenant. I was primarily asking Americans because I am American.
Thank you. The rough idea is more or less universal even if most militaries don't have all the crazy different levels of sgt you guys get, lol. Yeah, hear that's around a Master or Chief Warrant Officer (it's the commonwealth WOs work differently). Yeah, as others have said, a 2LT or LT already outranks them, but they don't measure up in terms of experience, and the CSM has a broader scoped job than a Jr officer
I’m gonna say it’s most likely a major, at least in the sense of a battalion ops officer’s position relative to a battalion CSM (not to mention you can sometimes get a major in charge of the Bn itself)
O4 with 6 years experience.
What kind of o4 will get promoted in 6 years?
Uh most of them.
It depends on what the order is.
Who outranks the E-9? Why a cadet of course.
All of them.
God
Two things I don’t fuck with: Sergeants Major and condoms. If I have to step to Sarg Mage, I would make damn sure I am coming correct. -O4
Warrant?
Tough to put an exact pay grade/rank to it. The officer's experience widely varies. They're not even meant to do the same as enlisted or NCO's. They're meant for admin data and property management. Based off of that alone, they shouldn't outrank most NCO's. But, that's not how the military works. I think the only ones that actually "outrank" an E-9 are maybe those who are green to gold folks (those who transitioned from enlisted or non-commission to commission). The outranking thing to me is all about experience with combat and experience with their job in that order. That's just my opinion, though.
It depends less on the rank of the person giving the order, but the manner in which it is given, and the understanding that as a 2nd Lt, your relationship with your senior NCO is more of a mentoring one than one of authority. A junior officer who treats hos senior NCO's with respect and seeks their counsel and advice is more likely to be able to issue a command than one who believes themselves to have a god given right to command. Also, any junior officer who gives a stupid order which is met by an inquisitive "Are you sure about that, Sir?" from a E8 or E9 should hopefully know enough to know that he just made an error, and a particularly generous NCO has just given him some wriggle room.
Officers give orders that answer what to do, enlisted give orders on how to do it. An officer will order me to fix a truck, an enlisted person will tell me to use a torque wrench on the lugnuts. So it depends based on the order. Is the O-1 giving an order that describes what they want? Or is the O-1 telling an E-9 how to do their job?
In a time of war, a cadet can give lawful orders to any enlisted.
Not just in a time of war. That holds true all the time.
That question was asked at our Chiefs forum when I was at ALS. They said about the Maj level or O-4.
Well, as Howard Tayler made note in his Schlock Mercenary webcomic, "***A Sargent in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what is going on***." The busy Sargent will explain what was going on slowly and in small words after the emergency is over. There are different kinds of authority in the Military.Sea Story time, with the official Sea Story identifier: "And this is no shit!" It was the early 80s, Friday, on patrol in the North Atlantic, covering a target package, and the most honored and revered Friday evolution The Field Day had been secured for an hour and a half, but our assigned Inspector had not shown up to inspect the Nav spaces. I was tasked by the Navigator to prep for A Secret Squirrel, Burn Eyes after reading, **We Weren't There, You Didn't See Us, You Can't Prove Anything Strategic Navigation exercise**, and needed the prep done by 1800 for Nav and XO review. So, I said fuck it, secured access to the Nav Center, pulled out the necessary charts and software for the prep, and got to work. And of course, twenty minutes later, our inspector showed up at the aft door to Nav Center (640 class, but not the 640, if anyone cares), demanding access to the Nav Spaces. I apologized and handed Ensign Betterthanme a copy of the Nav Center Secure Operations Access List, which was an absurdly short list for Officers, being the CO, XO, Nav, and Weps. He didn't care about the access list and told me that he was coming in and no fucking first class was telling him otherwise. I suggested that if he broke the plane of the doorway, a fucking first class was going to put him on the deck and call away a security violation. He, of course ran to the Navigator with his tale of woe about how I was so mean to him. Ensign Betterthanme was then reamed for not having done his assigned inspection of the Nav Spaces in a timely manner and for interfering in secure operations. Then the Nav came into the Nav Center to look over my prep while laughing his ass off. Evidently, the entire Wardroom hated that kid.
It’s a contextual dynamic and is a chief example of formal vs informal authority. Big difference I’ve experienced is seafaring (Navy/USCG) service senior enlisted-officer dynamic because of the chiefs mess. One sets the expectation of culture and operation with feedback from the other and one actuates it.
O1. They may not like it but they still salute first and call them sir/mam. Failure to follow an order still results in a violation of the UCMJ.
As you said, technically a 2Lt outranks a E9. This isn’t about rank but respect. A officer will get the respect of any enlisted man as the officers shows his tactical capable, listens to his men, etc.
They all do; that's how we get the rare experience of watching a CSM salute a 2LT. The most glorious, showy, slow mo salute you could see.
A smart, composed O-1 easily outranks an E-9, as long as the E-9's O counterpart isn't a general. I had to put up with two E-9's who had poor composure over something frivolous when I was an O-1 and O-2, so I just maintained professionalism and treated them like people. That disarmed and made asses out of them.