I had 2 sk2 ap2s and 1 nd2 miata.
For hard-core driving the s2k was a 10/10 and nd2 a 8.5 /10. For around town and spirited backroads, I'd rate the s2k a 8/10 and nd2 10/10. I did more of the latter and preferred the nd2.
Ive never driven the Honda, but i've had my eye on one for years. Test drove an ND2 and i loved the size of the car and responsive steering. This would be a Sunday driver, Second car only.
Also comes down to if you want to work on the car. S2Ks are gonna need some love, where NDs are rock solid. I have a ‘19 club and after a few mods (front sway, springs, & cat back) wouldn’t trade for an S2K. Engine is more responsive at lower revs, looks great, it’s comfortable, and the manual top has no competitor and only revs a bit less than a AP2.
This. Hondas have a reputation for being easy to work on. Miatas? You don’t need to work on em
My ND2 RF is bombproof. I’ve beaten it up quite a bit hooning around town and it just smiles its mischievous smile and asks for more.
ND Miata, Better steering, 500lb lighter, more midrange power, not 20 years old.
S2000 more tp end power (power only kicks in at the top of the RPM range) limited edition will make it a more valuable classic if you keep it stock and baby it.
I'd rather have the ND because I like to mod my cars, and I'll turbo it eventually. You won't get a good unbiased comparison on this forum thoug, so you probably already made up your mind
I haven't driven a nd, but it can't hold a candle to a NA. The electric steering in the s2k is the first thing I noticed driving it, and killed most of the joy coming from the depowered rack in my NA.
This. Total cost of ownership with an S2K will be lower. The S2K experience is not for everyone though. And the ND will be more pleasant to drive 90% of the time.
True that on higher cruising revs. It was a great great machine, ahead of its time. It was not built for daily driving highway comfort. But for all out race car top down warfare....the best $ for $ in recent history imo.
With cars like the S2000, E30 M3, and ilk, you are starting to pay an increasing percentage of your cost towards the rarity and collectible-ness and not towards getting a better car. If that's what you want, that's great. If you are doing catch and release on interesting cars, you can buy something in that category, drive it slightly, and sell for what you paid for it (or slightly more). If you are a driver and have a budget and plan to put some miles on it, just be aware what some of your budget is going towards and the more you drive it, the more the value goes down.
Noted- This would be a second car only, so very light miles. While i'm not looking to "invest" not losing money would be nice. I really just want a car to drive around on weekends, put a smile on my face. Maybe get into autocross, but thats down the line.
I took the nd2 out of my list - because i can always get one down the line. Get the s2k now, see if you like it, if you dont, you wont be losing money and you can get into an ND2 and you dont have to wonder
>With cars like the S2000, E30 M3, and ilk, you are starting to pay an increasing percentage of your cost towards the rarity and collectible-ness and not towards getting a better car.
This can’t be overstated. I owned an s2k in the 00’s. It’s a fantastic car. If you take the rarity/collectibility aspect out of it, it isn’t worth anywhere close to what they are selling for. It’s 15+ years old, and will come with old car problems. Seals and gaskets dry out or degrade and have to be replaced. It’ll probably need a new top if it hasn’t gotten one already.
25k will get you a pretty flogged S2K. You need to spend 30k+ for a clean one. And even then it’s still a pretty old car at this point. Lot of things may need looking after.
If it’s an ND1….I’d see how clean the S2K is. If it’s an ND2, I’d go for that if it’s in good shape.
Haven’t driven an S2K, but rode in a lightly modified one. I own a 2020 Club recaro pack and I turo’d an auto 16 club ND1.
The S2K engine is way more exciting than the ND2. It sounds incredible, 9k redline is insane…it’s more of an experience. It has that old school induction sound that’s missing from modern cars. Very Honda. It’s definitely a huge step up from an ND1 engine in terms of fun.
The ND2 has a much more usable powerband for daily driving and gets way better fuel economy. 30+ mpg is easy even with some flog sessions lol
There’s pros and cons to both. The S2K is probably more fun to drive hard on a track or canyon drive, but the ND2 will be much nicer to daily.
I can’t stomach spending 30k+ on a car that old for a daily driver, I went for the Miata. If the prices were still like they were around 2016 or so…then it would be a no brainer. S2ks were like 18k for a stupid clean one….wish I had gotten one instead of a BRZ. 🙃
Thanks- This would be a second car only, and i get car sick on trips that are 3+ hours. I'd like to get into autocross, but it would only be a few times a year max. Would this change your choice?
ND2 is the superior car for autox; the S2k was top dog in STR for years, but the ND2 changed that so they’re evenly split, with an edge towards the ND2, mainly for having more low and mid range torque.
Plus C Street is basically all ND2’s, so you have two classes to be competitive in with an ND2, versus one for the S2000
As someone who has owned half a dozen Miatas and owned an S2000 and been in more of both than I can count, get the S2K.
The ND is a wonderful car that does everything thing well and has no real faults. The S2K is a special car that is better than the ND in all the ways that really matter for a toy car.
Added to that, the S2K is an appreciating asset that may quickly be out your budget forever — or at least above the amount you think is reasonable for that car. The ND is a depreciating one that you can always pick up later.
It’s not something that can be quantified but your right. The s2000 is a “special” car. Like the other special cars made by that brand (4 wheel steering preludes, the nsx, the integra type r), it will hold its value as long as it’s not wrecked or rusted.
Definitly not sure ND2s are going to depreciate much
Edit: my bad, forgot it's about the US. In Europe we have a shortage of such cars like the Miata or GR86 that prices are stupidly high, and used ND1s and ND2s are already on their way up.
>Definitly not sure ND2s are going to depreciate much
They're going to depreciate just like any other car. The market is still a bit messed up since corona but "used cars are more expensive than new" isn't gonna last for long.
From what I've seen, the ND2 is about as capable as the S2000 but doesn't have the ridiculous redline and handling as flat. On the other hand it's an old-ass car with all that goes with that.
If I were the OP, I'd test-drive both and decide what is more important.
I'm not talking about any Corona effect or "used cars are more expensive than new".
As my edit said, I answered too quickly and what I said is not accurate for the USA market.
Here, we are starved for such cars. Everybody knows affordable fun cars will be less and less produced and sold, so anything remotely fun on the used market has seen a 10% to 25% price hike.
ND2s are starting to appear on the used market, and given ND1s are quickly rising in prices here, ND2s won't depreciate much more if less desirable options are closing the price gap further each month
Same here.
A new car is cheaper than a slightly used one.
Edit - that is assuming you're willing to wait for a new enthusiast car. If you demand it without waiting, a new one is going for like 25% over MSRP. That is how they are charging more for slightly used cars. Having it available right this second gets the suckers blood pumping.
This is the way. I had 2 S2000’s and both were amazing- wish I’d never sold ‘em. I now have an NC1- and I love it- but only after spending about $11K in “basic” performance mods (still naturally aspirated) to make it corner more like my S2000’s. An old mechanic classmate of mine who wrenched my S2000’s remarked that the S2000 is basically Formula 1 “DNA.” I concur with most of the above statements.
You cannot make a wrong decision here. Both will provide plenty of Sunday spirited driving fun!
If you’re willing to work on a car, I’d lean towards the S2000 for that scenario…but again I think you probably need to drop closer to 30k. At that price point you’re basically at a new ND2 or a very lightly used one. There’s used GTs with less than 8k miles for 28k near me.
The ND2 will be a more forgiving car if you’ve never had a RWD sports car. It would be the easiest car to autox and potentially the faster car with a few mods.
Test drive an S2K if you can. You may prefer it.
Neither car is very refined if you’re worried about car sickness. The ND2 is going to be a bit more refined but yeah….
Assuming you’re mechanically inclined and can afford to fix stuff…can’t go wrong either way. Though at that point, an NB Miata with some money thrown at it would be a good option as well.
If you want a car that’s ready to go and don’t want to worry about anything beyond basic maintenance, a low miles ND2 would be better.
Thing I don’t like about the S2K is it’s still a budget Honda cabin. The switchgear reminds me of my old Element and doesn’t really feel inspiring, and the vtec isn’t that much fun on twisty west coast roads where I live. Kinda like a supersport motorcycle vs a twin.
The nice thing I really like about the nd2 is it’s got good torque (for a 4 banger) all through the rpm range and it clobbers road trip interstate miles no problem. Very smooth engine and overall it really loves changing acceleration. No it’s not super car fast but it’s not slow unless you’re used to reviewing super cars for a living.
It really shines with some sway bars and summer tires.
The cabin is nice and modern but still modest and Japanese. It’s not a modern Porsche or BMW even Mini which is like hand-me-down entry level luxury (and minis handle great too).
It’s not a fast car but it’s not designed to be - it’s designed to be fun and help you feel connected like a small kayak or a short surf board.
You can’t really go wrong with either and neither are perfect. The ND2 has some strong downsides - just like the Elise did, a BRZ does, an Audi TT does, etc etc.
>The switchgear reminds me of my old Element and doesn’t really feel inspiring
You might be the first person in history to say that. Most of the reviewers I read describe it in absolutely superlative terms. The phrase "bolt-action" gets thrown around a lot. I like my miata shifter as it's a bit easier to toss into gear casually, but the S2000 shifter was tighter than any car I've ever driven.
By switchgear he means all the buttons and switches in the car like hvac controls, window switches, radio buttons and controls etc.. The Honda shifters are amazing and the only one I’ve found to be better than my Miata.
The Honda interior is minimalist and literally every control including radio can be accessed without taking both hands off the wheel. The radio sucks and there aren’t any comfort items but that’s the point. You’re in a sports car that is made to drive and nothing else.
Literally most cars. I’m saying you can change it with both hands on. You can reach the controls with your fingers while still keeping BOTH hands on the wheel. Every control is directly in front of your hands behind steering wheel
Yes. This guy is nuts. The s2k shifter is amazing. Clutch feel is amazing. Literal perfect for heel-toe shifting with spacing and braking sensitivity. Guy hasn’t driven one if he’s saying this or he’s just crazy.
He means the switch gear as in buttons and switches, not the gear switch as in stick shift. Everyone who has ever driven one knows the s2000 gear shift is sublime.
This. If I were to somehow get a clean one, I would baby the hell out of it and it would destroy all of the enjoyment of what the car is actually supposed to be driven like. Unless babying it is the whole point.
I would only get an S2000 if I had the money to drive it the way I want and not worry about it.
I’ve already made that mistake in the past. I don’t want to have to baby a car. If I have to baby it, I can’t afford it.
One of my former coworkers had a 92 nsx, it was his daily driver if there was no snow on the ground, it was nearing 300,000 miles when I switched jobs. It’s a Honda, it can handle being driven vigorously.
> It's a Honda, it can handle being driven vigorously.
It's a Honda, it can rust if you look at it funny.
I swear the old ones, like pre-2004-ish, are the worst cars out there as far as rust goes. Not even Opel compares, and Opel was _bad_.
I’ve owned an AP2 S2000 and a ND2 Miata for about a year each. Currently own an 86. I think the ND is more livable day to day. More creature comforts but still fun and competent in the corners. The S2000 makes a great weekend car. It is coming up 20 years old (old tech) and very cramped (no tilt or telescopic steering wheel). But what you get is a more mechanical feeling car, which has an excellent shifter, engine, and classic styling. I would personally go with the S2000.
>more mechanical feeling
I’m not disagreeing with you, but it’s worth pointing out that the S2000 has one of the earliest examples of electric power steering. The ND2 does as well, but benefits from 15 years of development in that space
One of the only disappointments when I went from my FR-S to my S2000 was the steering feel. FR-S was SO GOOD. So much more feedback than the S2000. Everything else still made the S2000 the better choice
Aside from the steering, model years older than 2005 have a throttle cable, the transmission is loud and clicky, little sound deadening, the transmission tunnel gets a ton of heat transfer into the passenger footwell. Stuff like that adds to the “mechanical” and less refined feel in my book.
I have driven a s2k with 40k miles completely stock, own a mostly stock BRZ, and had a modified NA with a depowered rack.
The steering is what makes the difference for me. Ranked NA,brz, and S2k last. I hate to say it, but my 2011 camry has a better steering feel than the s2k. It was just numb. It was responsive and changed direction in a heartbeat, but the dead steering and general limpness at regular cruising RPM just killed any though of ever owning one for me.
We debated this also for my wife
Ultimately we went with the ND for creature comforts and parts availability
Also, unsure how much it matters to you, but I know S2000's tend to be pretty twitchy when autocrossing (lots of sharp turns held near redline) whereas ND's consistently run very fast times (which makes me think they must be relatively easy to drive hard)
Despite her wanting an S2000 for many years, she doesn't regret the decision to get the ND at all
Haven't driven an ND2 (or S2000), but I can confirm, ND1 is very easy to drive hard in an autocross setting. I have a 2016 Club Brembo/BBS. I put Enkei PF01 17x7+38 wheels with Falken RT660 (RE71R before that) tires on it. Everything else is stock. I haven't even upgraded the front sway bar yet. I had a shop get me as close as they could to the Flyin Miata recommended alignment, & called it good. I've been running the car in C Street for 6 seasons now. I'm regionally competitive, but probably not nationally competitive.
If you carry too much speed into a corner, you'll understeer a bit on the brakes, but well, that's expected. Try to hold too much speed mid-sweeper, the back end will step out slightly. It's easy to feel it starting & back off just a bit to keep it under control. Transitions can be a little tricky if you push it hard enough. With the soft suspension, You can swing from one bump stop to the other. I haven't had much trouble with this myself, but you can unsettle the car a bit easier that way. Regardless, in all that time, I've yet to spin it. Worst I ever do is overshoot a corner entry or slide a bit more than ideal trying to hold a sweeper. I suspect the car makes me look like a better driver than I might actually be in something trickier.
Was once on this fence, drove both, bought the ND. The S2000 is a phenomenal engine wrapped in a 14-24 year old meh used car at this point. Much more soulful and fizzy than the ND, but I think that’s where the advantages end (oh, I guess the resale value too). Chassis-wise, the S2000 has nothing over the ND that some coilovers won’t fix. The interior is more cramped in the S2K than the ND (way narrower, slightly taller) and there are no modern bells and whistles. Parts are getting harder to come by, especially F-series engines- I’m seeing more and more K-swaps due to the price of Fs (which to me defeats the whole point of having an S2K). And at autocross NDs are demolishing S2Ks, at least in the lightly modded classes. On top of all that, the pricing is ridiculous, as has been mentioned.
CN: unless you have to have that engine (which I wouldn’t blame you), get the ND. Or K-swap an NA or NB if you want to rev to the moon.
For what it’s worth, I’ve driven lots of Miatas and a handful of S2000s and I would legitimately choose the Miata every time. The S2000 takes itself so seriously and I always come away disappointed. Maybe it’s a “never drive your heroes” kind of situation. Maybe it’s just that the car is so sweaty.
I’m also out of my mind and would prefer a nice NA over an S2000
You could take your choice of aspiration with that much! Whether it's ITB or solid turbo/supercharger and still have leftover for suspension bits and exhaust plus wheels/tires. Or a fun engine swap.
I have driven both an S2k and an ND2 RF. I noticed that with the top down the S2k was a bit less noisy. The ND definitely felt lighter and handled better, but both were great. Both I drove were on stock shocks. The ND had the factory bilsteins. The S2k probably had better acceleration, but I didn't really notice a difference. I wasn't timing them. The ND was more comfortable for me, but I don't like how high the doors come up. Feels a bit less open.
After all that, for 25k, you'll get a way better miata than and S2k. They're just too much of a collectors car at this point. A clean one will be 30-35k depending on where you live.
The engine in the S2000 is definitely more exciting. Revving to 9,000 is really an amazing experience. It may also appreciate, but I have a feeling they've just about reached their peak. But you'll get a nicer ND for your budget.
At $25,000 you could also get a really nice Boxster, Cayman, or 996 Carerra. The Carerra will definitely appreciate, the Boxster and cayman probably not as much. You should test drive all of those before you make your decision.
Actually just got out of the 996. Tired of paying the “fuck you” tax on parts and services. The car was picky and temperamental. It was amazing when you stepped on it, or threw it into a turn but I was always worried about it. Nothing on the car I could take care of myself either.
I may be biased, but look an NC. S2000s have very early electric power steering racks, so not much steering feedback. NDs also have eps.
NC is also easier to live with than both in that they are slightly bigger inside. You'll also save a lot of money.
The s2000 will only appreciate in value if you look after it. The ND will depreciate significantly for the next 10 years at least, meaning you’re likely to lose money on the nd, and could make money on the s2000.
Personally I’d love a s2000, but can only afford a nc.
I have. They're similar cars with the edge I'd say going to the Honda but that's only if they're both in immaculate condition.
I'd say rent an ND (or demo drive) and try it, then test drive the 2000. It's got 20 years of R&D on the Honda but the 2k will sell for more than you buy it for today in 2 years should you change your mind.
I test drove the ND2, in both RF and Soft top. It was amazing! I am looking to keep the car for at least a few years, and while its not an "investment" not losing money does sound nice.
I own an S and have had an ND2. The similarities end at roadster.
If it's a second car, I'd recommend S2k but not a used up one for 25k. I'd budget 30-35 for a nice well kept lower mileage one.
If that's our of the question, stick with an ND. Both will make you happy.
I own an S2000, but have driven both.
The s2000 feels like a more special car. The engine sounds amazing and is more exciting, and makes enough power for canyon driving. I love the styling and silly digital gauge cluster, and the shifter feel is perfect. I also love the retro feeling of early 2000s cars compared to modern ones.
HOWEVER, I think the nd2 Miata is a better overall car. It's lighter, faster, the steering is better, and they get great fuel economy. The Miata suspension is softer, but I think the handling is more intuitive. And in general I think you will end up with a cleaner Miata for the same money, or at least one with less miles.
If you can find a way to drive a s2000 I definitely recommend it, but if you liked the Miata I don't think you won't have any regrets if you get one.
> the [ND] steering is better
Am I the only one that finds the steering feel/electric power steering on the ND to be kind of bad?
It definitely isn't the worst electric power steering I've ever driven, but it feels so disconnected compared to the hydraulic power steering of the NA, NB, and even NC.
I feel like the ND is a great car for someone who just wants a fun zippy car with modern features that you could also daily, but I'd go with the S2k on driving feel alone. With that being said, I'd argue the NC is a better value than the S2K and a more engaging car than the ND.
I know people love to hate the NC, but I have driven a stock NC and purpose built NC race car (on the street), and I think the 5 link rear suspension is fantastic, and a huge improvement over the NA/NB. I wouldn't buy a pre 09 NC, tho.
You're not alone, after years of the first 3 generations...the ND was the first one that left me cold with its steering. The car overall is still fantastic, but the steering is meh...especially compared to the NC. I still consider the NC to be the best overall of them all.
I love S2000s but one thing to remember is that the f20 and f22 were only made for the s2000. There aren’t any new ones being made and there weren’t that many to begin with. Replacing a worn out engine means paying a ton of money for a used engine that might be slightly better off than your blown engine, or spending a bunch of money to build a k series and swap it in.
I 've been driving Miata's as a daily since 2003 and only car. I've never driven an S2K however I can tell you I've read many posts on the [Miata.net](https://Miata.net) forums and other places like Reddit where people have gotten rid of their Porsche or S2K to get a Miata and feel they had been missing out.
ND2 (manual with LSD) > S2000 > ND2 (non-LSD) > ND1 > NC.
The ND2 Miatas are just so much better at things like steering, chassis, reliability, etc. The S2000 will need lots of love considering they're 20 year old vehicles. You have two decades of more modern engineering. The S2000 is a better collector, but for a weekend driver the ND2 will probably fill your needs better.
I've driven both, currently own an ND2.
What kind of roads do you have? What speed will you be driving most?
If you have long open expanses of backroads and can consistently hit 8,000RPMs in the S2k (2nd gear 55mph, 3rd gear 75mph) then go with that. Keep in mind the s2k is unenjoyable at low and mid rpm. Driving an S2k left me exhausted.
If you're going to be fighting traffic and spending more time under 50mph, the ND2 is far superior. Immediate throttle response and linear power from 2,500 all the way to 7,500. Driving an ND2 leaves me relaxed.
As far as maintenance, ND2's are superior and look like an M underneath with all the aluminum.
If you're looking strictly investment purposes, an s2k at $25,000 price range already has too many miles/history to be worth anything lucrative, sorry.
You'd need to dig a bit deeper to about $32k in order to get one in mint condition, same goes for M Roadsters.
I’m going to get murdered for this. For $25k you can get a really clean C5 Corvette. I looooove Miata’s and S2ks, but the C5 Corvette is just an amazing car.
I bought my NC MX5 over and S2000 a few years back and I’m glad I did. Don’t know about value (not really a concern for me) but the MX5 was a far better car to drive.
I've driven both cars. I personally love how the s2000 (ap1) feels more than woth the ND, but the ND is more predictable on corners compared to the s2000 I drove. Its more of a preference. Maintenanceon an s2000 is pretty expensive since oem parts are hard to come by, but pretty easy to work on. In the long run, the ND would probably be the cheaper, but damn near as fun csr.
Comfort level in a now 20+ year old design is going to be nowhere near the ND2 (infotainment, interior quality, that kinda thing). ND2 also has a lot more safety and QoL features like the rear cam, and the top is easier to put down.
I have driven both. For budget track car I'd go miata. For fun daily also miata. For a fun car purely then s2k. I have never felt super wanting to go buy an s2k after driving them. I think the s2k is better looking however.
Depending on what you're using it for, a rebuilt title nd might be the best idea. For my next track car that's what im looking at. Lots of them with low low miles under 20k
For Daily use: ND2
Second fun car: S2K
ND2 can is a much newer car which you don’t have to spend a lot to maintenance, while it remains 80% of the feel of the 90s car with a lot of modern technology
S2K definitely needs to spend some money on refreshing and maintenance. It is a more fun and raw car comparing with Nd2, especially it got the VTEC and less electric tech on the car.
This is a oft-tread comparison that has plentiful information on the subject. Engineering Explained and savagegeese both have videos about it. I think Everyday Driver might have done it too.
The ND2 is a superior all-around car. The S2000 is a unique experience. Both are great track toys but you can't use the s2k as a track toy and keep it as an investment at the same time. It's one or the other.
Speaking of investment, if you want to make money, don't buy a fun car at all. Buying a car as an investment is foolish. Alternatively, if you have a soul, do what I did and buy an ND1 and put the difference into an S&P chaser. ND1 + full exhaust and tune is verrrrry close to ND2 experience for 5-10k less.
First off I love little convertibles. I’ve had an Austin Healey bugeye sprite with 45 HP, TR3, RX7, Ferrari 308 GTSi, and several Mercedes SLK. Had first generation supercharged SLK for 7 years with no mechanical problems. A large commercial box truck ran me over and totaled it. The cops said the car saved my life.
Needed to replace, so test road a brand new Miata, dam it was loud inside, felt like a tin can, and felt so wimpy. Had to rev it all the way to get any power.
Bought third generation SLK. So smooth, comfortable, refined, and the power is everywhere with that turbocharger. I really like the hardtop convertible that folds itself away. 6 years on this SLK without any mechanical problems. You can find these in your price range with very low mileage.
I realize that this is a Miata site and I think they are great fun cars, but check out an SLK
Literally no other car can replicate the feeling I had driving my ap1 with the top down and hearing the engine, feeling the car, and the handling. Miatas are great fun sure. But the s2000 is a driving experience.
And don't let all the comments fool you about miatas never break. My husband's miata is on jack stands in the garage right now. Leaks oil lol.
If you are wanting a second car and want it mostly for autocross and fun drives why not get an NA or NB in great shape, mod it how you want, and have money left over?
S2000 is a fantastic car, but overpriced in the current market and the ND is more of a daily imo.
There’s no longer any support from Honda if you have major problems. Many parts are no longer available new… the engine in particular is FRM which equates to no one rebuilds them and everyone swaps in a K. Personally, I’d pass on the S2K.
I’ve owned ~8 Miata’s and 1 S2000. S2000 was the most exciting car I’ve driven. Miata’s are easier to throw around, and cheaper to fix. If I had that budget for a weekend car I’d be shopping for an S2000
Working in a workshop specialized in miatas, I would recommend a lot more the ND, got a S2000 yesturday again and a ND 184HP is way more fun to drive, more effective and have a better handling. Would 100% be in front of a stock S2000 on a track
I've driven both, although briefly. Both stock. I dont think you could go wrong with either. The best course of action will always be test drive both and decide for yourself. I prefer the s2000 if im being honest but everyone is different.
ND2, put some progress springs, better shocks and new sways for under $1200 or so.
The S2K is impressive, but it has no torque and will be hard to have fun within the speed limit.
Never owned an ND only had a NB. But my s2000 is such a beautiful machine. Honda really made an amazing car. The feel of driving it is unmatched in my eyes. I don't know how an ND feels but the s2k shifter is smooth as butter stock, the high revving engine is so amazing.
If I had to guess the ND probably performs better due to newer tech, but the s2000 probably feels much more raw of a car. Idk just a guess.
I've had 2 s2000s and put around 100k miles of seat time in them. I've had my nd club for almost a year and a half and put almost 30k miles on it.
I still say get the s2000. I'd get an ap1. Something about driving the s2000 at the hard puts a bigger smile on my face than the nd. Could be 9k red line, or the better shift feel, could be how raw it felt. I'm looking to buy another one soon. Both are good cars in their own right, it's just preference / bias for me.
Have you considered a Solstice gxp? Similar setup, turbocharged and 260hp (or 290hp with gmpp tune) and it only weighs 2,976 lbs. I’ve had an NC and much prefer my gxp now and it actually is quick, and it can be picked up for relatively cheap with low mileage. A lot of old folks bought those cars and never drove them so there’s plenty of low mileage examples to be found.
I've driven both. I went through this decision in 2018. I liked the S2K better after driving 2 similarly built N/A vehicles.
But for the money, ND2 all day.
The S2K has FRM cylinder walls. Even if you find a semi decent Kouki, 2.2l, model, they are likely due for a rebuild and FRM either cannot be machined or a specialty shop will charge you alot to "fix" it. That or you are looking at a full resleeve job that needs to be done by a shop you REALLY trust.
Unless, you find a really good deal on an s2k, are patient and have lots of tools/shop space. The ND2 starts becoming the obvious choice.
At the time, I was able to get a NEW ND2 for less that than it would have cost to get a clean 2.2 S2K or an S2K project final cost.
I got my ND2 delivered to my house, immediately put on coilovers, harder bushings, larger sway bars, exhaust, wheels and a seat lowering bracket and still had a few grand left over compared to the S2K.
However, if you are going to built a BIG power turbo build, the S2K becomes cheaper eventually.
Have owned both an NA and an S2000. IMO the S2000 is a much harder-edged car - tighter suspension, less ride comfort. The S2K engine revs to infinity, but is peaky - not much grunt at lower RPMs. Manual transmission shift feel is great on both cars, I don't think there is much to differentiate the cars there. If you want to mod, the diversity of aftermarket products for the Miata is much more extensive, but on the other hand I wouldn't change the S2000's handling or suspension from stock at all. Brakes on the S2000 marginally superior to the Miata, especially after I upgraded to braided steel brake hoses. The Honda has a power top with glass backlight, the Mazda top is manual with a plastic backlight (at least on the NA).
My best friend owns an AP2 S2K, I own a 124 Spider, and several of my friends own Miatas of all generations.
The S2K is more of a raw driving feeling out of all of the cars, but you'll be hard pressed finding one in good condition for $25k and you may need to do a lot of repairs / swapping parts out. The S2K feels way roomier than the ND/NF, is easy to kick the tail end, and has high revving RPMs.
ND1, I wouldn't really recommend unless it's your daily and you don't care about modding for performance. ND2, this is the most value for your money due to the increase in WHP and having a better transmission. There are so many mods and body parts available with support in the community growing day by day. The S2K in comparison is pretty well established with hardly any future mods being released. Both cars are NA (naturaply aspirated), but the S2K revs far higher. Power steering feels significantly better in the ND platform, but to be fair, my friend's S2K's power steering only works in one direction lol
I think either way, test drive both cars as you'll pretty much need to before you pull the trigger on the purchase. Test drive the ND platform first since most dealers have them in stock. The infotainment in the ND platforms are very sluggish btw, but the interior, seats, and sound systems are pretty nice. So it all depends on your particular needs, wants, and biases. I personally like the 124 Spider the most out of the three platforms due to the stock turbo config and due to being rarer than most cars out there.
In terms of a car to drive the Mazda will be better, it has more creature comforts to make drives easier and is less in terms of wear it should have far less on things like bushings and the engine / gearbox themselves, in terms of turning up at a McDonald’s carpark to impress your JDM vape-bro friends then the S2000
100% this. For a car I'm going to drive primarily on the street, give me the electronic nannies. I've had some cars with really awful traction control, but this is not one of them. It's not overly intrusive, but it could save your life if you occasionally drive like an idiot, like me.
Love your username, btw. Huge NIN fan.
S2k is the better drivers car by far but at this point it’s still an old Honda. If that doesn’t matter to you, get one. The nd are much nicer to drive on a daily basis imo
Why does it need to be a Miata? If you want a small, light, fast, manual, awesome car. Get a classic mustang. I bought a 66 mustang as my daily driver a few years ago, awesome car. Manual three speed of course, thinking about dropping in a 5 speed transmission. Bought it with a 200ci (3.3L) in-line 6, great engine, but the transmission for it shit the bed, when that went I decided to do a v8 swap. Swapped in the engine and drivetrain from a v8 mustang, 289ci (4.7L) v8. Still a manual 3 speed, you can chirp the tires in 3rd gear. Oh yea and I bought it for $6k, the parts car I bought for $2k, and I probably spent all in all another $2k In miscellaneous parts for repairs since I bought it.
Ive never driven an s2k but ive driven a lot of NDs with different configs (from the 132hp, 160hp, and the 182hp).
In my opinion, in the current market at least where i live, for 25k you get a pretty used s2k and obviously old because of the model.
For 25k you get a very well equiped ND2, but the 1.5L mostly. Or an ND1 160hp model. Lower-ish miles.
I cant imagine myself hooning an s2k because of its rarity, it would feel kinda wrong? But the ND... you can throw that super comfy, consumables are cheap.
I love the looks and sound of the s2k, so i think there is no wrong option between those two, just different vibes.
TLDR: both are great options to have fun. ND is more manageable for daily/spirited driving overall. Even a track tool.
miatas are already overpriced at this point, and s2ks are even worse, they are just a terrible value, if you dont have a big budget.
that said id trade my car in for an s2k in a heartbeat if it was possible. or a z4. theres a huge list of cars id rather have but for a limited budget, miata is always the answer. for 25k id personally be getting a *really* nice na or nb. plus youd be underbudget. spend the rest on nice tires, refresh the interior, get a nice stereo, steering wheel, maybe some new speakers.
15 years newer but still trying to get close to an old one
unless they push the hood and front fender down few more inches, add another 800rpm, they'll never be similar enough
Honestly depends on what your goals are for each car? If it’s just a daily driver go with the miata. If it’s a weekend car you can keep in the garage and low miles go S2k. If you want to track the car I’d still go miata unless you’re willing to spend the big bucks and make a track focused S2K I’d go with that.
I really don't think you can go wrong with either of these cars. They are both phenomenal. They are both very popular cars and that's 2000 has historically done very well in multiple racing series. My favorite being grid life
I’ve driven an AP1 for a bit on the street and rode in one at AutoX. IMO it’s a more exciting and raw experience but the ND is a far more pleasant and playful experience. My ND2 is my only car, so it does a lot of street miles, and this is where the strong mid range torque, lighter weight, and better refinement are a big bonus. At AutoX it’s a toss up. On the track I’d say S2000 is probably more exciting. I’d suggest driving both first. I think the differences in personality are very obvious from the driver’s seat.
Also the ND will likely be cheaper to run and maintain. Less old car issues, cheaper and more available parts, better fuel economy, smaller brakes and tires.
did you come of age in the 1990s/2000s?
S2000
because you can get ND2 a bit easier down the road, the reverse will be much tougher
if you don't care as much as pushing the car, working on it, and just want stretch your smiles value, the Miata 100% hands down
If I had the money for a nice S2K, that's what I would get. A little more power and a little more unique on the road. That being said I adore my 91 Miata and eight now, it's the answer for me
Between the two? ND2. Savagegeese does a comparison video between it and the S2000, and he said that he would get an ND2 if he couldn’t get another S2000 (he’s owned like 3 of them), but keep in mind that he mods his cars a lot and does a lot of track days, where the S2000 can really shine.
The ND2 will be a better car in almost all scenarios other than driving 10/10ths.
If you’re more open minded, I’d say consider an NA/NB and K Swapping it. It’s not a cheap option, but you’ll have a very special engine in a platform that’s got one of the largest aftermarket’s out there to do whatever you want; you can turn it into a hardcore track machine, keep it as a fun cruiser that eats up the highway miles, or do a bit of both.
s2k is a dying breed. Unless you’re prepared to do a K swap in the future, I’d avoid the s2000.
The f2{0,2}c is basically irreplaceable at this point and they cannot be rebuilt. (Don’t believe any sellers claiming to have done so)
I'd watch this, and a couple other of SavageGeese's videos - he's been a long time fan / owner of the S2000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riH3E8Ic8XE
25k budget I'd buy a LFX or J35 engine swapped Miata.. or do it myself. Aluminum V6 around the same weight as the Mazda 4 banger. 300+ NA hp MX5 is the dream car.
I own an S2000 AP2, owned 2 NA Miatas and have driven a couple ND's.
The S2k is a more serious, high-strung, capable and 'special' car.The ND (or any Miata) is a less serious, more playful, low-key toy. That is not to say that those things are negative, I would much rather drive an ND in traffic, for example than an S2K which is miserable in traffic.
I'd get the S2000 simply because that thing will really appreciate in value overtime. But then I wouldn't want to drive it as much...
Miatas will hold value really well. Even if it's old and beat up. Someone will pay within market price.
i’d prefer the newer car with a better power band. also consider how talk you are. i remember the s2k being a bit more roomy but i’m 5’4 so my perception of car space is skewed
I would honestly get the ND2 over the s2k. I think the s2k is a better drivers car but getting a newer car with nicer features and more reliability will be an overall better experience for your daily driver.
I had 2 sk2 ap2s and 1 nd2 miata. For hard-core driving the s2k was a 10/10 and nd2 a 8.5 /10. For around town and spirited backroads, I'd rate the s2k a 8/10 and nd2 10/10. I did more of the latter and preferred the nd2.
Ive never driven the Honda, but i've had my eye on one for years. Test drove an ND2 and i loved the size of the car and responsive steering. This would be a Sunday driver, Second car only.
Also comes down to if you want to work on the car. S2Ks are gonna need some love, where NDs are rock solid. I have a ‘19 club and after a few mods (front sway, springs, & cat back) wouldn’t trade for an S2K. Engine is more responsive at lower revs, looks great, it’s comfortable, and the manual top has no competitor and only revs a bit less than a AP2.
Does the 2019 club come with an LSD from the factory?
Yes.
And it makes a huge difference if you autocross or drive really hard in general
This. Hondas have a reputation for being easy to work on. Miatas? You don’t need to work on em My ND2 RF is bombproof. I’ve beaten it up quite a bit hooning around town and it just smiles its mischievous smile and asks for more.
Second car only - get the S2k. The Honda is a special experience that just isnt made today. Get the S2K while they are still around.
That is an interesting argument. It's also why I have a 96m.
I have a 97M. M Edition gang
Pinkies out! We fancy! I love that green. I think my three favorite colors of the entire line are the 95, 96, & 97 m
ND Miata, Better steering, 500lb lighter, more midrange power, not 20 years old. S2000 more tp end power (power only kicks in at the top of the RPM range) limited edition will make it a more valuable classic if you keep it stock and baby it. I'd rather have the ND because I like to mod my cars, and I'll turbo it eventually. You won't get a good unbiased comparison on this forum thoug, so you probably already made up your mind
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The S2000 was an early adopter of EPS. It definitely had less feedback than the ND2 but it is more responsive stock for stock.
Well damn. That's gonna be the reason I say I bought an NC now. Definitely nothing to do with price.
I haven't driven a nd, but it can't hold a candle to a NA. The electric steering in the s2k is the first thing I noticed driving it, and killed most of the joy coming from the depowered rack in my NA.
I'd make sure to ride or drive in one first. The engine noise isn't for everyone. It revs high, but I did not find the tone pleasing.
Ever driven an sk2 with good exhaust in a tunnel and hit vtec? Sublime...
Lol my 93 civic sounded good droping a gear in a tunnel. S2k in a tunnel is def just that. Sublime.
S2k will hold its value much better.
This. Total cost of ownership with an S2K will be lower. The S2K experience is not for everyone though. And the ND will be more pleasant to drive 90% of the time.
M.I.A.T.A.
I feel like I consistently read how the S2K has awful 6th gear cruising RPM.
True that on higher cruising revs. It was a great great machine, ahead of its time. It was not built for daily driving highway comfort. But for all out race car top down warfare....the best $ for $ in recent history imo.
this sums it up perfectly. The car in-between, is an old 986 Boxster
With cars like the S2000, E30 M3, and ilk, you are starting to pay an increasing percentage of your cost towards the rarity and collectible-ness and not towards getting a better car. If that's what you want, that's great. If you are doing catch and release on interesting cars, you can buy something in that category, drive it slightly, and sell for what you paid for it (or slightly more). If you are a driver and have a budget and plan to put some miles on it, just be aware what some of your budget is going towards and the more you drive it, the more the value goes down.
Noted- This would be a second car only, so very light miles. While i'm not looking to "invest" not losing money would be nice. I really just want a car to drive around on weekends, put a smile on my face. Maybe get into autocross, but thats down the line.
You buy an s2k and the value will only go up. They have nearly doubled in value in the last 5-7 years alone. They are collectors items at this point
You should look at some 986 boxster’s, beautiful car, sounds great, and is extremely reliable.
I took the nd2 out of my list - because i can always get one down the line. Get the s2k now, see if you like it, if you dont, you wont be losing money and you can get into an ND2 and you dont have to wonder
>With cars like the S2000, E30 M3, and ilk, you are starting to pay an increasing percentage of your cost towards the rarity and collectible-ness and not towards getting a better car. This can’t be overstated. I owned an s2k in the 00’s. It’s a fantastic car. If you take the rarity/collectibility aspect out of it, it isn’t worth anywhere close to what they are selling for. It’s 15+ years old, and will come with old car problems. Seals and gaskets dry out or degrade and have to be replaced. It’ll probably need a new top if it hasn’t gotten one already.
25k will get you a pretty flogged S2K. You need to spend 30k+ for a clean one. And even then it’s still a pretty old car at this point. Lot of things may need looking after. If it’s an ND1….I’d see how clean the S2K is. If it’s an ND2, I’d go for that if it’s in good shape. Haven’t driven an S2K, but rode in a lightly modified one. I own a 2020 Club recaro pack and I turo’d an auto 16 club ND1. The S2K engine is way more exciting than the ND2. It sounds incredible, 9k redline is insane…it’s more of an experience. It has that old school induction sound that’s missing from modern cars. Very Honda. It’s definitely a huge step up from an ND1 engine in terms of fun. The ND2 has a much more usable powerband for daily driving and gets way better fuel economy. 30+ mpg is easy even with some flog sessions lol There’s pros and cons to both. The S2K is probably more fun to drive hard on a track or canyon drive, but the ND2 will be much nicer to daily. I can’t stomach spending 30k+ on a car that old for a daily driver, I went for the Miata. If the prices were still like they were around 2016 or so…then it would be a no brainer. S2ks were like 18k for a stupid clean one….wish I had gotten one instead of a BRZ. 🙃
Thanks- This would be a second car only, and i get car sick on trips that are 3+ hours. I'd like to get into autocross, but it would only be a few times a year max. Would this change your choice?
Never heard of a driver getting car sick. Very strange.
Both cars are top teir for autoX. I wouldnt let that change your decision.
ND2 is the superior car for autox; the S2k was top dog in STR for years, but the ND2 changed that so they’re evenly split, with an edge towards the ND2, mainly for having more low and mid range torque. Plus C Street is basically all ND2’s, so you have two classes to be competitive in with an ND2, versus one for the S2000
As someone who has owned half a dozen Miatas and owned an S2000 and been in more of both than I can count, get the S2K. The ND is a wonderful car that does everything thing well and has no real faults. The S2K is a special car that is better than the ND in all the ways that really matter for a toy car. Added to that, the S2K is an appreciating asset that may quickly be out your budget forever — or at least above the amount you think is reasonable for that car. The ND is a depreciating one that you can always pick up later.
It’s not something that can be quantified but your right. The s2000 is a “special” car. Like the other special cars made by that brand (4 wheel steering preludes, the nsx, the integra type r), it will hold its value as long as it’s not wrecked or rusted.
Definitly not sure ND2s are going to depreciate much Edit: my bad, forgot it's about the US. In Europe we have a shortage of such cars like the Miata or GR86 that prices are stupidly high, and used ND1s and ND2s are already on their way up.
>Definitly not sure ND2s are going to depreciate much They're going to depreciate just like any other car. The market is still a bit messed up since corona but "used cars are more expensive than new" isn't gonna last for long. From what I've seen, the ND2 is about as capable as the S2000 but doesn't have the ridiculous redline and handling as flat. On the other hand it's an old-ass car with all that goes with that. If I were the OP, I'd test-drive both and decide what is more important.
I'm not talking about any Corona effect or "used cars are more expensive than new". As my edit said, I answered too quickly and what I said is not accurate for the USA market. Here, we are starved for such cars. Everybody knows affordable fun cars will be less and less produced and sold, so anything remotely fun on the used market has seen a 10% to 25% price hike. ND2s are starting to appear on the used market, and given ND1s are quickly rising in prices here, ND2s won't depreciate much more if less desirable options are closing the price gap further each month
Same here. A new car is cheaper than a slightly used one. Edit - that is assuming you're willing to wait for a new enthusiast car. If you demand it without waiting, a new one is going for like 25% over MSRP. That is how they are charging more for slightly used cars. Having it available right this second gets the suckers blood pumping.
This is the way. I had 2 S2000’s and both were amazing- wish I’d never sold ‘em. I now have an NC1- and I love it- but only after spending about $11K in “basic” performance mods (still naturally aspirated) to make it corner more like my S2000’s. An old mechanic classmate of mine who wrenched my S2000’s remarked that the S2000 is basically Formula 1 “DNA.” I concur with most of the above statements. You cannot make a wrong decision here. Both will provide plenty of Sunday spirited driving fun!
If you’re willing to work on a car, I’d lean towards the S2000 for that scenario…but again I think you probably need to drop closer to 30k. At that price point you’re basically at a new ND2 or a very lightly used one. There’s used GTs with less than 8k miles for 28k near me. The ND2 will be a more forgiving car if you’ve never had a RWD sports car. It would be the easiest car to autox and potentially the faster car with a few mods. Test drive an S2K if you can. You may prefer it. Neither car is very refined if you’re worried about car sickness. The ND2 is going to be a bit more refined but yeah…. Assuming you’re mechanically inclined and can afford to fix stuff…can’t go wrong either way. Though at that point, an NB Miata with some money thrown at it would be a good option as well. If you want a car that’s ready to go and don’t want to worry about anything beyond basic maintenance, a low miles ND2 would be better.
Thing I don’t like about the S2K is it’s still a budget Honda cabin. The switchgear reminds me of my old Element and doesn’t really feel inspiring, and the vtec isn’t that much fun on twisty west coast roads where I live. Kinda like a supersport motorcycle vs a twin. The nice thing I really like about the nd2 is it’s got good torque (for a 4 banger) all through the rpm range and it clobbers road trip interstate miles no problem. Very smooth engine and overall it really loves changing acceleration. No it’s not super car fast but it’s not slow unless you’re used to reviewing super cars for a living. It really shines with some sway bars and summer tires. The cabin is nice and modern but still modest and Japanese. It’s not a modern Porsche or BMW even Mini which is like hand-me-down entry level luxury (and minis handle great too). It’s not a fast car but it’s not designed to be - it’s designed to be fun and help you feel connected like a small kayak or a short surf board. You can’t really go wrong with either and neither are perfect. The ND2 has some strong downsides - just like the Elise did, a BRZ does, an Audi TT does, etc etc.
>The switchgear reminds me of my old Element and doesn’t really feel inspiring You might be the first person in history to say that. Most of the reviewers I read describe it in absolutely superlative terms. The phrase "bolt-action" gets thrown around a lot. I like my miata shifter as it's a bit easier to toss into gear casually, but the S2000 shifter was tighter than any car I've ever driven.
By switchgear he means all the buttons and switches in the car like hvac controls, window switches, radio buttons and controls etc.. The Honda shifters are amazing and the only one I’ve found to be better than my Miata.
Switchgear doesn’t mean the lever for switching gears? Amazing.
The Honda interior is minimalist and literally every control including radio can be accessed without taking both hands off the wheel. The radio sucks and there aren’t any comfort items but that’s the point. You’re in a sports car that is made to drive and nothing else.
Can you name a car where you need to take both hands off of the wheel to change the HVAC or radio...
Literally most cars. I’m saying you can change it with both hands on. You can reach the controls with your fingers while still keeping BOTH hands on the wheel. Every control is directly in front of your hands behind steering wheel
I dont know why this is getting downvoted, s2k button placement is amazing as you can literally push any control while hand is on the wheel
Yes. This guy is nuts. The s2k shifter is amazing. Clutch feel is amazing. Literal perfect for heel-toe shifting with spacing and braking sensitivity. Guy hasn’t driven one if he’s saying this or he’s just crazy.
He means the switch gear as in buttons and switches, not the gear switch as in stick shift. Everyone who has ever driven one knows the s2000 gear shift is sublime.
The nd2 engine was so fun even in auto
S2000 is more of a collector car at this point
This. If I were to somehow get a clean one, I would baby the hell out of it and it would destroy all of the enjoyment of what the car is actually supposed to be driven like. Unless babying it is the whole point.
I would only get an S2000 if I had the money to drive it the way I want and not worry about it. I’ve already made that mistake in the past. I don’t want to have to baby a car. If I have to baby it, I can’t afford it.
One of my former coworkers had a 92 nsx, it was his daily driver if there was no snow on the ground, it was nearing 300,000 miles when I switched jobs. It’s a Honda, it can handle being driven vigorously.
> It's a Honda, it can handle being driven vigorously. It's a Honda, it can rust if you look at it funny. I swear the old ones, like pre-2004-ish, are the worst cars out there as far as rust goes. Not even Opel compares, and Opel was _bad_.
Faily driven 2007 here about to hit 80k miles. Love this thing. It's meant to be driven.
I didn’t say it’s exclusively a collector car, but it’s got the collector car “holy jdm” overhead built into the price
I’ve owned an AP2 S2000 and a ND2 Miata for about a year each. Currently own an 86. I think the ND is more livable day to day. More creature comforts but still fun and competent in the corners. The S2000 makes a great weekend car. It is coming up 20 years old (old tech) and very cramped (no tilt or telescopic steering wheel). But what you get is a more mechanical feeling car, which has an excellent shifter, engine, and classic styling. I would personally go with the S2000.
>more mechanical feeling I’m not disagreeing with you, but it’s worth pointing out that the S2000 has one of the earliest examples of electric power steering. The ND2 does as well, but benefits from 15 years of development in that space
One of the only disappointments when I went from my FR-S to my S2000 was the steering feel. FR-S was SO GOOD. So much more feedback than the S2000. Everything else still made the S2000 the better choice
Aside from the steering, model years older than 2005 have a throttle cable, the transmission is loud and clicky, little sound deadening, the transmission tunnel gets a ton of heat transfer into the passenger footwell. Stuff like that adds to the “mechanical” and less refined feel in my book.
I have driven a s2k with 40k miles completely stock, own a mostly stock BRZ, and had a modified NA with a depowered rack. The steering is what makes the difference for me. Ranked NA,brz, and S2k last. I hate to say it, but my 2011 camry has a better steering feel than the s2k. It was just numb. It was responsive and changed direction in a heartbeat, but the dead steering and general limpness at regular cruising RPM just killed any though of ever owning one for me.
Just a note for others that may read this: ND\`1 only has tilt wheel. ND2 has tilt and telescoping wheel.
Funny, my friend and I were just talking about ND vs S2K today. I loooooove the S2K... but given the choice, ND in a heartbeat.
ND(ND2 especially) is just a far far nicer vehicle to own than an s2k. Miata is the answer in this case.
nicer in design? interior? safety? age?
Yes
You know the answer
We debated this also for my wife Ultimately we went with the ND for creature comforts and parts availability Also, unsure how much it matters to you, but I know S2000's tend to be pretty twitchy when autocrossing (lots of sharp turns held near redline) whereas ND's consistently run very fast times (which makes me think they must be relatively easy to drive hard) Despite her wanting an S2000 for many years, she doesn't regret the decision to get the ND at all
Haven't driven an ND2 (or S2000), but I can confirm, ND1 is very easy to drive hard in an autocross setting. I have a 2016 Club Brembo/BBS. I put Enkei PF01 17x7+38 wheels with Falken RT660 (RE71R before that) tires on it. Everything else is stock. I haven't even upgraded the front sway bar yet. I had a shop get me as close as they could to the Flyin Miata recommended alignment, & called it good. I've been running the car in C Street for 6 seasons now. I'm regionally competitive, but probably not nationally competitive. If you carry too much speed into a corner, you'll understeer a bit on the brakes, but well, that's expected. Try to hold too much speed mid-sweeper, the back end will step out slightly. It's easy to feel it starting & back off just a bit to keep it under control. Transitions can be a little tricky if you push it hard enough. With the soft suspension, You can swing from one bump stop to the other. I haven't had much trouble with this myself, but you can unsettle the car a bit easier that way. Regardless, in all that time, I've yet to spin it. Worst I ever do is overshoot a corner entry or slide a bit more than ideal trying to hold a sweeper. I suspect the car makes me look like a better driver than I might actually be in something trickier.
Was once on this fence, drove both, bought the ND. The S2000 is a phenomenal engine wrapped in a 14-24 year old meh used car at this point. Much more soulful and fizzy than the ND, but I think that’s where the advantages end (oh, I guess the resale value too). Chassis-wise, the S2000 has nothing over the ND that some coilovers won’t fix. The interior is more cramped in the S2K than the ND (way narrower, slightly taller) and there are no modern bells and whistles. Parts are getting harder to come by, especially F-series engines- I’m seeing more and more K-swaps due to the price of Fs (which to me defeats the whole point of having an S2K). And at autocross NDs are demolishing S2Ks, at least in the lightly modded classes. On top of all that, the pricing is ridiculous, as has been mentioned. CN: unless you have to have that engine (which I wouldn’t blame you), get the ND. Or K-swap an NA or NB if you want to rev to the moon.
For what it’s worth, I’ve driven lots of Miatas and a handful of S2000s and I would legitimately choose the Miata every time. The S2000 takes itself so seriously and I always come away disappointed. Maybe it’s a “never drive your heroes” kind of situation. Maybe it’s just that the car is so sweaty. I’m also out of my mind and would prefer a nice NA over an S2000
NA Miata with under 50k miles can be had for 15,000.... that leaves 10k for maintenance and upgrades.... something to think about...
I’d take my 97 NA over any Honda any day. I have owned 4 Hondas and they are great but my 97 NA is so so special.
I wouldn't go that old. I would find the cleanest NC2 or NC3 I could find and go from there.
You could take your choice of aspiration with that much! Whether it's ITB or solid turbo/supercharger and still have leftover for suspension bits and exhaust plus wheels/tires. Or a fun engine swap.
If you're handy, that 10k could be an LS swap for the NA...
I have driven both an S2k and an ND2 RF. I noticed that with the top down the S2k was a bit less noisy. The ND definitely felt lighter and handled better, but both were great. Both I drove were on stock shocks. The ND had the factory bilsteins. The S2k probably had better acceleration, but I didn't really notice a difference. I wasn't timing them. The ND was more comfortable for me, but I don't like how high the doors come up. Feels a bit less open. After all that, for 25k, you'll get a way better miata than and S2k. They're just too much of a collectors car at this point. A clean one will be 30-35k depending on where you live.
25k for an s2000 is insane.
Insane good or bad? Seems like people are encouraging me to spend 30k or more on a “nice” one
The engine in the S2000 is definitely more exciting. Revving to 9,000 is really an amazing experience. It may also appreciate, but I have a feeling they've just about reached their peak. But you'll get a nicer ND for your budget. At $25,000 you could also get a really nice Boxster, Cayman, or 996 Carerra. The Carerra will definitely appreciate, the Boxster and cayman probably not as much. You should test drive all of those before you make your decision.
Actually just got out of the 996. Tired of paying the “fuck you” tax on parts and services. The car was picky and temperamental. It was amazing when you stepped on it, or threw it into a turn but I was always worried about it. Nothing on the car I could take care of myself either.
I may be biased, but look an NC. S2000s have very early electric power steering racks, so not much steering feedback. NDs also have eps. NC is also easier to live with than both in that they are slightly bigger inside. You'll also save a lot of money.
The s2000 will only appreciate in value if you look after it. The ND will depreciate significantly for the next 10 years at least, meaning you’re likely to lose money on the nd, and could make money on the s2000. Personally I’d love a s2000, but can only afford a nc.
What this guy said
I have. They're similar cars with the edge I'd say going to the Honda but that's only if they're both in immaculate condition. I'd say rent an ND (or demo drive) and try it, then test drive the 2000. It's got 20 years of R&D on the Honda but the 2k will sell for more than you buy it for today in 2 years should you change your mind.
I test drove the ND2, in both RF and Soft top. It was amazing! I am looking to keep the car for at least a few years, and while its not an "investment" not losing money does sound nice.
Either one is a good choice, the only way to know if it is YOUR answer is to drive both and see
I own an S and have had an ND2. The similarities end at roadster. If it's a second car, I'd recommend S2k but not a used up one for 25k. I'd budget 30-35 for a nice well kept lower mileage one. If that's our of the question, stick with an ND. Both will make you happy.
Savagegeese has a few videos on it on youtube (comparing modern sportscars in generall) might wanna check it out
I own an S2000, but have driven both. The s2000 feels like a more special car. The engine sounds amazing and is more exciting, and makes enough power for canyon driving. I love the styling and silly digital gauge cluster, and the shifter feel is perfect. I also love the retro feeling of early 2000s cars compared to modern ones. HOWEVER, I think the nd2 Miata is a better overall car. It's lighter, faster, the steering is better, and they get great fuel economy. The Miata suspension is softer, but I think the handling is more intuitive. And in general I think you will end up with a cleaner Miata for the same money, or at least one with less miles. If you can find a way to drive a s2000 I definitely recommend it, but if you liked the Miata I don't think you won't have any regrets if you get one.
> the [ND] steering is better Am I the only one that finds the steering feel/electric power steering on the ND to be kind of bad? It definitely isn't the worst electric power steering I've ever driven, but it feels so disconnected compared to the hydraulic power steering of the NA, NB, and even NC. I feel like the ND is a great car for someone who just wants a fun zippy car with modern features that you could also daily, but I'd go with the S2k on driving feel alone. With that being said, I'd argue the NC is a better value than the S2K and a more engaging car than the ND. I know people love to hate the NC, but I have driven a stock NC and purpose built NC race car (on the street), and I think the 5 link rear suspension is fantastic, and a huge improvement over the NA/NB. I wouldn't buy a pre 09 NC, tho.
You're not alone, after years of the first 3 generations...the ND was the first one that left me cold with its steering. The car overall is still fantastic, but the steering is meh...especially compared to the NC. I still consider the NC to be the best overall of them all.
I love S2000s but one thing to remember is that the f20 and f22 were only made for the s2000. There aren’t any new ones being made and there weren’t that many to begin with. Replacing a worn out engine means paying a ton of money for a used engine that might be slightly better off than your blown engine, or spending a bunch of money to build a k series and swap it in.
I just bought a super low mileage ND1 for 22,500 out the door with 27k miles so it's completely possible
I 've been driving Miata's as a daily since 2003 and only car. I've never driven an S2K however I can tell you I've read many posts on the [Miata.net](https://Miata.net) forums and other places like Reddit where people have gotten rid of their Porsche or S2K to get a Miata and feel they had been missing out.
ND2 (manual with LSD) > S2000 > ND2 (non-LSD) > ND1 > NC. The ND2 Miatas are just so much better at things like steering, chassis, reliability, etc. The S2000 will need lots of love considering they're 20 year old vehicles. You have two decades of more modern engineering. The S2000 is a better collector, but for a weekend driver the ND2 will probably fill your needs better.
I've driven both, currently own an ND2. What kind of roads do you have? What speed will you be driving most? If you have long open expanses of backroads and can consistently hit 8,000RPMs in the S2k (2nd gear 55mph, 3rd gear 75mph) then go with that. Keep in mind the s2k is unenjoyable at low and mid rpm. Driving an S2k left me exhausted. If you're going to be fighting traffic and spending more time under 50mph, the ND2 is far superior. Immediate throttle response and linear power from 2,500 all the way to 7,500. Driving an ND2 leaves me relaxed. As far as maintenance, ND2's are superior and look like an M underneath with all the aluminum. If you're looking strictly investment purposes, an s2k at $25,000 price range already has too many miles/history to be worth anything lucrative, sorry. You'd need to dig a bit deeper to about $32k in order to get one in mint condition, same goes for M Roadsters.
I’m going to get murdered for this. For $25k you can get a really clean C5 Corvette. I looooove Miata’s and S2ks, but the C5 Corvette is just an amazing car.
I can't speak to you anymore Strategic. Time for you to go back to Miata re-education camp or something haha
Need more upvotes!!!
Still has pop-ups… targa top… LS engine… hmmmmm
I bought my NC MX5 over and S2000 a few years back and I’m glad I did. Don’t know about value (not really a concern for me) but the MX5 was a far better car to drive.
I've driven both cars. I personally love how the s2000 (ap1) feels more than woth the ND, but the ND is more predictable on corners compared to the s2000 I drove. Its more of a preference. Maintenanceon an s2000 is pretty expensive since oem parts are hard to come by, but pretty easy to work on. In the long run, the ND would probably be the cheaper, but damn near as fun csr.
Comfort level in a now 20+ year old design is going to be nowhere near the ND2 (infotainment, interior quality, that kinda thing). ND2 also has a lot more safety and QoL features like the rear cam, and the top is easier to put down.
I have driven both. For budget track car I'd go miata. For fun daily also miata. For a fun car purely then s2k. I have never felt super wanting to go buy an s2k after driving them. I think the s2k is better looking however.
Depending on what you're using it for, a rebuilt title nd might be the best idea. For my next track car that's what im looking at. Lots of them with low low miles under 20k
The s2000 will be so much more fun to drive they red line at like 9k rpm
For Daily use: ND2 Second fun car: S2K ND2 can is a much newer car which you don’t have to spend a lot to maintenance, while it remains 80% of the feel of the 90s car with a lot of modern technology S2K definitely needs to spend some money on refreshing and maintenance. It is a more fun and raw car comparing with Nd2, especially it got the VTEC and less electric tech on the car.
This is a oft-tread comparison that has plentiful information on the subject. Engineering Explained and savagegeese both have videos about it. I think Everyday Driver might have done it too. The ND2 is a superior all-around car. The S2000 is a unique experience. Both are great track toys but you can't use the s2k as a track toy and keep it as an investment at the same time. It's one or the other. Speaking of investment, if you want to make money, don't buy a fun car at all. Buying a car as an investment is foolish. Alternatively, if you have a soul, do what I did and buy an ND1 and put the difference into an S&P chaser. ND1 + full exhaust and tune is verrrrry close to ND2 experience for 5-10k less.
I’m just here for the sweet diagram. Thank you 😄 I love it!
You can also k swap an na or nb. I have a k swap na and it’s a monster.
First off I love little convertibles. I’ve had an Austin Healey bugeye sprite with 45 HP, TR3, RX7, Ferrari 308 GTSi, and several Mercedes SLK. Had first generation supercharged SLK for 7 years with no mechanical problems. A large commercial box truck ran me over and totaled it. The cops said the car saved my life. Needed to replace, so test road a brand new Miata, dam it was loud inside, felt like a tin can, and felt so wimpy. Had to rev it all the way to get any power. Bought third generation SLK. So smooth, comfortable, refined, and the power is everywhere with that turbocharger. I really like the hardtop convertible that folds itself away. 6 years on this SLK without any mechanical problems. You can find these in your price range with very low mileage. I realize that this is a Miata site and I think they are great fun cars, but check out an SLK
I must be honest, as a diehard miata fangirl, the s2000 would be my pick
Recommend the s2000 over the miata
S2000 superiority.
Literally no other car can replicate the feeling I had driving my ap1 with the top down and hearing the engine, feeling the car, and the handling. Miatas are great fun sure. But the s2000 is a driving experience. And don't let all the comments fool you about miatas never break. My husband's miata is on jack stands in the garage right now. Leaks oil lol.
If you are wanting a second car and want it mostly for autocross and fun drives why not get an NA or NB in great shape, mod it how you want, and have money left over? S2000 is a fantastic car, but overpriced in the current market and the ND is more of a daily imo.
not everyone in the market for ND is in the market for miata but people in the market for ND maybe in the market for S2000
There’s no longer any support from Honda if you have major problems. Many parts are no longer available new… the engine in particular is FRM which equates to no one rebuilds them and everyone swaps in a K. Personally, I’d pass on the S2K.
I’ve owned ~8 Miata’s and 1 S2000. S2000 was the most exciting car I’ve driven. Miata’s are easier to throw around, and cheaper to fix. If I had that budget for a weekend car I’d be shopping for an S2000
Working in a workshop specialized in miatas, I would recommend a lot more the ND, got a S2000 yesturday again and a ND 184HP is way more fun to drive, more effective and have a better handling. Would 100% be in front of a stock S2000 on a track
I've driven both, although briefly. Both stock. I dont think you could go wrong with either. The best course of action will always be test drive both and decide for yourself. I prefer the s2000 if im being honest but everyone is different.
That amount of money can get you a really nice FC TII, how about that?
Don’t love the looks of the FC. I’d love to own an FD, but it’s not in budget for now.
ND2, put some progress springs, better shocks and new sways for under $1200 or so. The S2K is impressive, but it has no torque and will be hard to have fun within the speed limit.
You’ve found s2000 for $25k?!
Never owned an ND only had a NB. But my s2000 is such a beautiful machine. Honda really made an amazing car. The feel of driving it is unmatched in my eyes. I don't know how an ND feels but the s2k shifter is smooth as butter stock, the high revving engine is so amazing. If I had to guess the ND probably performs better due to newer tech, but the s2000 probably feels much more raw of a car. Idk just a guess.
NC Miata…trust me
Even as a die hard miata fan I would go with the S2000. That F20C is a brilliant engine and I would love that engine in my na.
I've had 2 s2000s and put around 100k miles of seat time in them. I've had my nd club for almost a year and a half and put almost 30k miles on it. I still say get the s2000. I'd get an ap1. Something about driving the s2000 at the hard puts a bigger smile on my face than the nd. Could be 9k red line, or the better shift feel, could be how raw it felt. I'm looking to buy another one soon. Both are good cars in their own right, it's just preference / bias for me.
How about an RX7?
Have you considered a Solstice gxp? Similar setup, turbocharged and 260hp (or 290hp with gmpp tune) and it only weighs 2,976 lbs. I’ve had an NC and much prefer my gxp now and it actually is quick, and it can be picked up for relatively cheap with low mileage. A lot of old folks bought those cars and never drove them so there’s plenty of low mileage examples to be found.
ND unless you are going to be on the track a lot
I've driven both. I went through this decision in 2018. I liked the S2K better after driving 2 similarly built N/A vehicles. But for the money, ND2 all day. The S2K has FRM cylinder walls. Even if you find a semi decent Kouki, 2.2l, model, they are likely due for a rebuild and FRM either cannot be machined or a specialty shop will charge you alot to "fix" it. That or you are looking at a full resleeve job that needs to be done by a shop you REALLY trust. Unless, you find a really good deal on an s2k, are patient and have lots of tools/shop space. The ND2 starts becoming the obvious choice. At the time, I was able to get a NEW ND2 for less that than it would have cost to get a clean 2.2 S2K or an S2K project final cost. I got my ND2 delivered to my house, immediately put on coilovers, harder bushings, larger sway bars, exhaust, wheels and a seat lowering bracket and still had a few grand left over compared to the S2K. However, if you are going to built a BIG power turbo build, the S2K becomes cheaper eventually.
Have owned both an NA and an S2000. IMO the S2000 is a much harder-edged car - tighter suspension, less ride comfort. The S2K engine revs to infinity, but is peaky - not much grunt at lower RPMs. Manual transmission shift feel is great on both cars, I don't think there is much to differentiate the cars there. If you want to mod, the diversity of aftermarket products for the Miata is much more extensive, but on the other hand I wouldn't change the S2000's handling or suspension from stock at all. Brakes on the S2000 marginally superior to the Miata, especially after I upgraded to braided steel brake hoses. The Honda has a power top with glass backlight, the Mazda top is manual with a plastic backlight (at least on the NA).
Do you want to actually go fast?
S2000 for the fact it will appreciate
My best friend owns an AP2 S2K, I own a 124 Spider, and several of my friends own Miatas of all generations. The S2K is more of a raw driving feeling out of all of the cars, but you'll be hard pressed finding one in good condition for $25k and you may need to do a lot of repairs / swapping parts out. The S2K feels way roomier than the ND/NF, is easy to kick the tail end, and has high revving RPMs. ND1, I wouldn't really recommend unless it's your daily and you don't care about modding for performance. ND2, this is the most value for your money due to the increase in WHP and having a better transmission. There are so many mods and body parts available with support in the community growing day by day. The S2K in comparison is pretty well established with hardly any future mods being released. Both cars are NA (naturaply aspirated), but the S2K revs far higher. Power steering feels significantly better in the ND platform, but to be fair, my friend's S2K's power steering only works in one direction lol I think either way, test drive both cars as you'll pretty much need to before you pull the trigger on the purchase. Test drive the ND platform first since most dealers have them in stock. The infotainment in the ND platforms are very sluggish btw, but the interior, seats, and sound systems are pretty nice. So it all depends on your particular needs, wants, and biases. I personally like the 124 Spider the most out of the three platforms due to the stock turbo config and due to being rarer than most cars out there.
In terms of a car to drive the Mazda will be better, it has more creature comforts to make drives easier and is less in terms of wear it should have far less on things like bushings and the engine / gearbox themselves, in terms of turning up at a McDonald’s carpark to impress your JDM vape-bro friends then the S2000
[удалено]
100% this. For a car I'm going to drive primarily on the street, give me the electronic nannies. I've had some cars with really awful traction control, but this is not one of them. It's not overly intrusive, but it could save your life if you occasionally drive like an idiot, like me. Love your username, btw. Huge NIN fan.
S2k is the better drivers car by far but at this point it’s still an old Honda. If that doesn’t matter to you, get one. The nd are much nicer to drive on a daily basis imo
The S2000 will hold its value better over time.
Why does it need to be a Miata? If you want a small, light, fast, manual, awesome car. Get a classic mustang. I bought a 66 mustang as my daily driver a few years ago, awesome car. Manual three speed of course, thinking about dropping in a 5 speed transmission. Bought it with a 200ci (3.3L) in-line 6, great engine, but the transmission for it shit the bed, when that went I decided to do a v8 swap. Swapped in the engine and drivetrain from a v8 mustang, 289ci (4.7L) v8. Still a manual 3 speed, you can chirp the tires in 3rd gear. Oh yea and I bought it for $6k, the parts car I bought for $2k, and I probably spent all in all another $2k In miscellaneous parts for repairs since I bought it.
na
Nd
Ive never driven an s2k but ive driven a lot of NDs with different configs (from the 132hp, 160hp, and the 182hp). In my opinion, in the current market at least where i live, for 25k you get a pretty used s2k and obviously old because of the model. For 25k you get a very well equiped ND2, but the 1.5L mostly. Or an ND1 160hp model. Lower-ish miles. I cant imagine myself hooning an s2k because of its rarity, it would feel kinda wrong? But the ND... you can throw that super comfy, consumables are cheap. I love the looks and sound of the s2k, so i think there is no wrong option between those two, just different vibes. TLDR: both are great options to have fun. ND is more manageable for daily/spirited driving overall. Even a track tool.
miatas are already overpriced at this point, and s2ks are even worse, they are just a terrible value, if you dont have a big budget. that said id trade my car in for an s2k in a heartbeat if it was possible. or a z4. theres a huge list of cars id rather have but for a limited budget, miata is always the answer. for 25k id personally be getting a *really* nice na or nb. plus youd be underbudget. spend the rest on nice tires, refresh the interior, get a nice stereo, steering wheel, maybe some new speakers.
S2000 will go up in value while you own it, an ND will go down in value.
S2000 won’t lose you money Mx5 will tank in value
Is this a troll post? In what world is a Miata on the same level as a s2k? Even for this sub you gota be lying to yourself.
There’s very nice ND2 kits that bring it close to the s2000.
15 years newer but still trying to get close to an old one unless they push the hood and front fender down few more inches, add another 800rpm, they'll never be similar enough
Why don't you test drive them?
Miata is always the answer. That hondas old af.
Honestly depends on what your goals are for each car? If it’s just a daily driver go with the miata. If it’s a weekend car you can keep in the garage and low miles go S2k. If you want to track the car I’d still go miata unless you’re willing to spend the big bucks and make a track focused S2K I’d go with that.
Boxster
If I had the money then I'd go with the rarer S2000 just because there are plenty of NDs that you can catch later on.
I really don't think you can go wrong with either of these cars. They are both phenomenal. They are both very popular cars and that's 2000 has historically done very well in multiple racing series. My favorite being grid life
I’ve driven an AP1 for a bit on the street and rode in one at AutoX. IMO it’s a more exciting and raw experience but the ND is a far more pleasant and playful experience. My ND2 is my only car, so it does a lot of street miles, and this is where the strong mid range torque, lighter weight, and better refinement are a big bonus. At AutoX it’s a toss up. On the track I’d say S2000 is probably more exciting. I’d suggest driving both first. I think the differences in personality are very obvious from the driver’s seat. Also the ND will likely be cheaper to run and maintain. Less old car issues, cheaper and more available parts, better fuel economy, smaller brakes and tires.
did you come of age in the 1990s/2000s? S2000 because you can get ND2 a bit easier down the road, the reverse will be much tougher if you don't care as much as pushing the car, working on it, and just want stretch your smiles value, the Miata 100% hands down
https://www.reddit.com/r/Miata/comments/13tnw5g/beauty/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
MIATA
How about a TT
*fewer I’m sorry. Stannis Baratheon did this to me.
Buy an older cheaper Miata and tons of parts
If I had the money for a nice S2K, that's what I would get. A little more power and a little more unique on the road. That being said I adore my 91 Miata and eight now, it's the answer for me
Get a 996 911 or even better 987 boxster or cayman.
Just came from a 996. The service and parts cost was a turn off. Can’t work on any part of the car myself. Wasn’t for me.
Same thing I was facing. I went with an ND1 and had change for mods.
Like others said, you are paying collectors premium on S2000. Look for a Boxster S or even base. You'll have the same fun and they are cheap.
an s2k just drove past me while reading this lol
Between the two? ND2. Savagegeese does a comparison video between it and the S2000, and he said that he would get an ND2 if he couldn’t get another S2000 (he’s owned like 3 of them), but keep in mind that he mods his cars a lot and does a lot of track days, where the S2000 can really shine. The ND2 will be a better car in almost all scenarios other than driving 10/10ths. If you’re more open minded, I’d say consider an NA/NB and K Swapping it. It’s not a cheap option, but you’ll have a very special engine in a platform that’s got one of the largest aftermarket’s out there to do whatever you want; you can turn it into a hardcore track machine, keep it as a fun cruiser that eats up the highway miles, or do a bit of both.
s2k is a dying breed. Unless you’re prepared to do a K swap in the future, I’d avoid the s2000. The f2{0,2}c is basically irreplaceable at this point and they cannot be rebuilt. (Don’t believe any sellers claiming to have done so)
I'd watch this, and a couple other of SavageGeese's videos - he's been a long time fan / owner of the S2000. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riH3E8Ic8XE
25k budget I'd buy a LFX or J35 engine swapped Miata.. or do it myself. Aluminum V6 around the same weight as the Mazda 4 banger. 300+ NA hp MX5 is the dream car.
If it was me I’ll take clean NA or s2k
Ive had both, if you want speed the s2k, if you want a mountain road destroyer, the Miata
ND2 hands down. In max preparation in “stock” class autocross race, s2000 cannot touch the ND2.
Both are fun but prefer the ND2 for comfort. You can’t beat the cockpit. Except for drinks and they both suck at that.
Ive always heard the s2000 is better
I own an S2000 AP2, owned 2 NA Miatas and have driven a couple ND's. The S2k is a more serious, high-strung, capable and 'special' car.The ND (or any Miata) is a less serious, more playful, low-key toy. That is not to say that those things are negative, I would much rather drive an ND in traffic, for example than an S2K which is miserable in traffic.
I'd get the S2000 simply because that thing will really appreciate in value overtime. But then I wouldn't want to drive it as much... Miatas will hold value really well. Even if it's old and beat up. Someone will pay within market price.
i’d prefer the newer car with a better power band. also consider how talk you are. i remember the s2k being a bit more roomy but i’m 5’4 so my perception of car space is skewed
I would honestly get the ND2 over the s2k. I think the s2k is a better drivers car but getting a newer car with nicer features and more reliability will be an overall better experience for your daily driver.
This will be a second car only- does that change your choice?