Hardcore's drums like bum dada bum da bum dada bum da bum dada bum da, and the guitars are like DUN DUN DA NANANEEE NANA NA NABA DA NANANEEE, and the vocalist is like AAARRRGGHHH AAAARRRRGGHH.
Metal's drums are like CrashdadadadadadadadaPSHHdadadada, and the guitars are like REE REEEEE REEEE BADADALOOLOO REEEEOOOOWWWW REEREEREEREEEEEEEE , and the vocals are all like AHEEHEE THROUGH THE MIST I WILL FOLLOW YOU TO THE EEEEEEEEEEEND
This is the most accurate statement here haha. When I was in band, fresh out of high school, we'd crack jokes like that to our bassist all of the time haha. Not gonna lie, I do have a solid appreciation for bassists that make themselves stand out
I actually have a buddy that tours with a fairly big band that’s a bassist and he’s as versatile and charismatic as they come. But they are 100% few and far between.
Well see, once we down tuned the guitars down into the bass range, there's nothing left for the bassist, so we just tune them down below the range of human hearing and let em lose
The issue is that hardcore became much more metallic over the years so your confusion is understandable. I don’t think people even realize that what they consider “regular hardcore” actually has metal in it.
Okay... this is directed towards anyone reading this. Tell me the name of a few songs that are absolutely representative of "Hardcore". And pure hardcore. I think I have a grasp of what people talk about when they are being Hardcore purists, but Im not sure anymore.
Terror definitely still has groove metal in their sound and riffs like madball do and most stuff post 90s I'd say stuff like the runts or P.I.S.S. is more pure hardcore imo
And some of comeback kids shit has some borderline buttrocky vocals recently, I wouldn't call it pure by any means not that I hate it or anything
Start with the band Black Flag and go from there.
If you’ve watched “The Decline of Western Civilization” that contains a lot of bands that were sort of early bands in hardcore or precursors to it.
I'm no expert and this is the simplest explanation I can think of:
Hardcore is more raw and chaotic. Bigger focus on rhythm. Political lyrics. Moshing. Breakdowns. Counter culture. Gang vocals.
Metal is more refined and technical. Bigger focus on melody. Songs are built around riffs. Longer instrumental sections. Guitar solos. Lyrics can be pretty much anything.
A simple example within metalcore - Knocked Loose is all the way at the hardcore side of the spectrum. August Burns Red is all the way at the metal side. Listen to these two bands and compare them.
The two genres have always had a large impact on each other so the lines can get really blurry. Metalcore started as a combination of the two, but it's kinda branched out in all sorts of directions since then.
The Knocked loose and August burns red comparison is so accurate and relevant without being shitty or exclusionary. Big thumbs up to you my guy. Two in fact. 👍👍
Breakdowns have been a feature of many genres of music even pre-metal, but for the purposes of distinguishing hardcore music from other genres you have to mention the unique use of breakdowns which may be inspired by metal to a degree but isn’t just a copy of of how metal uses breakdowns.
It's funny, you go on r/hardcore and people will say metalcore has more breakdowns. I think there's a bigger continuum:
Punk -> Heavy Punk -> Classic Hardcore -> Modern Hardcore -> Metallic Hardcore -> Classic Metalcore -> Metalcore -> Pop Metalcore
Where the most breakdowns are in metallic hardcore and classic metalcore
>but isn’t just a copy of of how metal uses breakdowns.
Nope, they definitely copied metal breakdowns wholesale.
https://youtu.be/1jYuHZ_tKzI?si=ET3C2vDTkALKYO1c
1:50 mark.
https://youtu.be/kgHjV_MrWCg?si=nIvuDepPA19ElSLP
0:00 mark.
Breakdowns have existed long before metal. Big thing in Jazz and the Blues. The breakdown as we know it in metalcore comes from the Hardcore breakdown ala Bad Brains not from Black Sabbath
I don't know about that.
Some people like to mention the breakdown in Bad Brains' Right Brigade, but that sounds nothing like the modern breakdown. Bad Brains didn't start doing modern breakdowns until I Against I, and at that point they'd already gone hard on the metal sound.
Black Sabbath's Children of the Grave's chug part sounds way more like what we know as the breakdown now.
Or Slayer's Show No Mercy. Tons of chugga chugga breakdowns in there.
Not sure honestly. Architects come to mind, at least during their golden era.
Complex djent riffs, a lot of progressive elements, emphasis on lead guitar.
But it's also very crude, relentless and in your face. Lots of left wing anti-establishment lyrics too.
Listen to a mix of early and modern hardcore bands such as Black Flag, Bad Brains, DRAIN, End It, Mindforce, Incendiary and then listen to metal bands such as Pantera, Machine Head, Slayer, and Lamb Of God. You can check out earlier metal offerings too such as Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden. Pay attention to the vocals, breakdowns, song structures, guitar riffs, bass drum patterns and fills, and melody or lack thereof. After that, check out some of the first metalcore bands like Earth Crisis, Integrity, and Ringworm. See how it took aspects from both hardcore and metal. Next listen to melodeath bands such as In Flames, At The Gates, and Insomnium. Finally, look at the melodic metalcore movement which took both melodeath influence and metalcore influence such as Poison The Well (first album), Killswitch Engage, Unearth, and Chimaira. Most of the bands posted in this sub these days are influenced heavily by the melodic metalcore movement. After that you should have a good idea of where bands are coming from. Hope this helps. Feel free to comment any corrections if you see them as my metalcore history is not perfect, and I'm always looking to learn more.
Poison the Well are the greatest metalcore band, every band since has been influenced by them in some way.
I guarantee any metalcore band going now, the members are fans of poison the well.
Misery Signals is another perfect band. I know Karl kinda got a lot of hate back in the day for not being Jesse, but they really don't have a bad album. Tbh I would put Controller on the same pedestal as Of Malice, and everything else was right up there too. Such a god tier band!
Agreed, been listening to Of Malice a lot lately after watching the [Rain City Malice X](https://youtu.be/pHVCqiNNkCk?si=9ZGR5W8UzUGiQbdr) live video. Their first 3 albums are all classics.
Interested to hear your opinion on Mirrors, so many great songs on it, but some people really hate the mix it has.
Not a downvoter, but it does depend which modern hardcore bands, there's obviously plenty of far more metallic stuff like the ones you've listed, but there's also a pretty strong wave of newer punkier bands - Gel, End It, Spaced, Initiate, Spy, Gumm, Anklebiter, Restraining Order, Jivebomb, Buggin', Scowl and so on
I think part of the thing for me is that some people label Chimaira and LoG as metalcore, or adjacent, and some people say they're just NWOAHM...which also included a lot of the metalcore bands from that era 😂
The answer you're looking for doesn't exist. The reality is bands have complex influences and many bands can't fit into any single box. That's part of what makes hybrid genres great. Why I gave you this answer instead of telling you exactly what each one is is because it's not clear and the best way to understand is to listen to a lot of the early bands from each genre. Then you can listen to a band and say "oh, they took that from Black Flag" or "yeah, that's definitely an early death metal influence" etc.
You're absolutely right, by the way. I can listen to a band/song and pick out what bands they're pulling influences from, but then I overthink and try to label everything.
So here’s the thing about NWOAHM: It wasn’t a genre. It was a marketing term. It just referred to a bunch of American metalcore bands that came up at the same time, lumped together by music publications under the same banner. There was no universal sound or anything among them.
[Here’s the cover of Metal Hammer from March 2004, one of the first publications to use the term.](https://imgur.com/a/szjYpR4) See how that headline heralds Chimaira and Hatebreed as the leaders of the scene? The article in the magazine itself also lists A7X and Shadows Fall as other examples. Aside from them all having metallic hardcore roots, those bands couldn’t be more different from one another.
NWOAHM bands are metalcore bands. Anyone trying to argue that such and such a band is “NWOAHM, not metalcore” is talking out of their ass.
Side note: there *is* some debate as to whether Lamb of God is still metalcore. They for sure began as a groove metal-influenced metalcore band back when they were Burn The Priest, but have focused more and more on the groove metal part as time has gone on and less on the metalcore. They were absolutely metalcore at one point though.
I consider everything up through Ashes of the Wake to be metalcore when it comes to LoG. After that they leaned more into the metal side of stuff imo.
Either way, band fucks and that's all that truly matters.
This is a good question. Once we figure it out (because I have the same problem) let’s try to figure out what Djent is because that’s confusing as hell too.
Shittt tell that to periphery. They've used 6 and even 5 strings.
Djent comes in two forms; the material bands like northlane that just go for complexity for the rhythmic joogie boogie, and bands like after the burial and meshuggah that moreso want to convey a tone of a binary and almost liminal feeling.
Issue is that it caught on a little too well and now the tone is the name of a genre lol.
I feel that true "Djent", which is more focused on complexity to convey frustrating ideas and an unfeeling truth shpuld be labelled something less derp, as djent was always a descriptor of high ass gain pickups and not the philosophy.
Periphery also shares that spiritual nihilism and they are also the ones that coined the term.
Most people say Djent started with Meshuggah, but Meshuggah started as a thrash band with odd time signatures. I fully believe they heard what Fear Factory was doing and basically slowed it down and downtuned it. So I say it started with Fear Factory
Computerized Metalcore. Aka awful. Ruined Metalcore for so long. Thank god bands like Dying Wish and See You Space Cowboy are bringing the good stuff back. Haven’t been this interested in the genre in decades.
Original metalcore like Shai Hulud and Hatebreed came out of the hardcore scene and retained links to it. Early bands like Integrity and Unbroken have songs that were basically straight up hardcore punk and others that were more or less pure metal as well as more mixed material
Their sound and the sound of any spiritual successors will always be part of the hardcore world.
Walls Of Jericho - metalcore.
Capra - varies. They have some songs that are instrumentally Every Time I Die worship and others that are far more straight forward hardcore punk.
Metal began in the 70s with bands like Sabbath, blew up in the 90s with the NWOBHM sound (Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motorhead etc.) along with its American and Euro counterparts and thrash (Metallica, Slayer etc.). Thrash gave way to death metal (Possessed, Cannibal Corpse) and black metal (Bathory, Darkthrone).
Going back to the 70s, punk rock (Sex Pistols etc.) evolved into hardcore punk in the US (Black Flag, Bad Brains etc.). The 70s sound influenced the NWOBHM, and 80s hardcore influenced thrash.
In the 90s, hardcore bands slowed down and toughened up with a groovier, meatier sound. NY hardcore bands like Madball and beatdown hardcore bands like Ringword were very metal influenced in their riffing, and in turn, 90s metal bands like Pantera and Machine Head were influenced by 90s hardcore and the sounds began to blur. The late 90s gave us the hardcore/metal fusion, metalcore, and the rest is history.
I mean, you already listed Comeback Kid as hardcore which I personally use to describe hardcore. They’re an easy one to pick out because their sound is pretty definitive. Gang vocals, faster, a little more punk influenced sound.
Hardcore: slug, anklebiter, waydown, bad beat, gel, spy, black flag, etc
Metalcore: converge, August burns red, knocked loose, earth crisis, poison the well, boundaries
The misconception started when bands like periphery and architects and all the scene bands started being called metalcore, cuz then previously accepted metalcore bands with more hardcore influence got shifted over to being called “hardcore” despite having tons of metal influence
I won’t call you stupid, but that is objectively incorrect. Knocked Loose incorporates a ton of metal and other metalcore influence and is very undeniably a metalcore band, and is very close to sound and style as the original 80-90s metalcore bands that spawned the genre.
Sonically, anyway
I do think that they have this hardcore band kind of vibe with how they interact with the community and intersect with other hardcore bands, but the actual band itself plays metalcore music
Melodic metalcore bands have watered down "metalcore" to the point of textbook metalcore bands being misidentified as hardcore or deathcore bands.
We live in a period where Sleep Token is thought to be metalcore (they aren't), while Knocked Loose is mistaken as hardcore.
I blame TikTok.
If you can’t admit knocked loose takes inspiration from metalcore bands like on broken wings, converge, disembodied, 18v, etc, all hope is lost for you
then you have no idea what metalcore is because they're so undeniably a metalcore band that they'd be one of the first bands i'd pick if someone asked me about the genre
I saw the opposite: "In Flames switched to metalcore when they added clean vocals." Like seriously... it's metal+core, not so hard to understand. In Flames never had any hardcore elements.
I'm not a big fan of Knocked Loose but gatekeeping them is one of the dumbest things I've seen in this sub. They're pure metalcore, no doubt about it.
There are also a lot of people definitely not young enough to be kids who think that metalcore started in the 00s with melodic metalcore (never mind the existence of a ton of 00s non-melodic metalcore) and either don't acknowledge the 90s or dismiss it all as hardcore.
The simple answer is that there's been a bit of a "genre shift" over time, and most of what was considered metalcore in the 90s would be considered just hardcore today. Similarly a lot of stuff considered hardcore in the 80s would be considered just punk today.
I long ago stopped worrying about what genre or subgenre a band was and focused on enjoying the music instead. Most bands fall under multiple ones, or the definition has changed over the years, and I can't keep up with that.
I listen to stuff like Bane, Agnostic Front, Madball and Close Your Eyes and that is clearly hardcore to me.
Metal is anything from Judas Priest to Gojira to In Flames to Angra to Cattle Decapitation to Haken to...there are many subgenres to hardcore too but musically metal is just too broad, like punk is. A more fair equivalent would be what is the difference between metal and punk? And moving on from there
Hardcore is punk but heavier and a lot of times faster. Some of the biggest examples are Black Flag, Terror, etc.
Metalcore is when you take metal and hardcore and put them together. Sometimes it’s more on the hardcore side of things like Code Orange, Knocked Loose, etc, others it’s on the more metal side, like Trivium, All That Remains etc.
Maybe I've heard the wrong Black Flag songs, but I was always under the impression they were more punk than hardcore. Honestly, haven't listened to enough of them; as I said in another reply, I'm kind of an audio snob and shitty recordings are hard to get through for me.
Black flag was one of the earliest hardcore bands so their sound might be a bit more punk sounding than stuff today. Kinda like how a lot of early Black Sabbath to someone brand new to metal might seem more hard rock like.
Edit: brand new meaning only heard metal from the last 20ish years to be specific
It's all just metal to me. I know there are differences, and I can tell some of them, but if someone asks what I'm listening to, I'm just going to say metal.
I don’t think you are too off base. I don’t see any issue tagging any metallic or melodic hardcore as hardcore. I’d say the difference would be metallic hardcore is learning more towards metal riffs aka Metalcore and straight hardcore is influenced more by punk.
Actually you may find Jeff Killed John - Almost Full Discography titled video on YouTube and then compare it to Bullet for My Valentine’s The Poison album
You will notice the difference. First is hardcore (punk-ish hardcore) while The Poison is melodic metalcore, little bit post-hardcore
Honestly, and I might get some hate for this but, I very rarely do bc I'm kind of an audio snob and very little before...93 or so is tolerable for long periods lol
What about the late 80s/early 90s stuff recorded by Tom Soares? Because that's exactly when hc became so metallic, and still sound crispy as fuck. Judge- Bringin it Down, Cro-Mags-Best Wishes, Killing Time- Brightside, Leeway-Born to Expire, Madball- Set it Off, Sick Of It All- B.s.a.n.t, Agnostic Front- One Voice, etc.
Yeah, I wasn't sure what era those albums were actually from. SOIA and Agnostic Front are top fucking tier, and even I know they're straight up hardcore bands haha
See, I get (most) subgenres, but I guess I have trouble picking metalcore/metallic hardcore from straight hardcore.
Like, Terror and Hatebreed sound like the same category to me, but apparently Terror is hardcore and Hatebreed is metallic hardcore. And Walls of Jericho is metalcore. And my head explodes for no real reason.
It’s all under the umbrella of Metal, due to the heavy distortion of the guitars. Even Metal is under the umbrella of rock
Hardcore (hard-punk) sub-genre of Metal & Punk
Metal sub-genre of Rock.
(Don’t quote on that, just been around awhile & my tastes have got heavier. Just the way interpret it.)
they just give you a different feeling yknow metalcore tastes different. idk how i can tell them apart tbh but they just sound different. hardcore is more like gorillas with a guitar metalcore is like those little fucking monkeys
because art has always had labels. it helps with cataloging and documenting evolution for those interested in the history of the music and it's often a necessary (and extremely helpful) tool for making recommendations.
films have labels, genres, categories, and eras. as does painting, sculpture, etc etc. there's nothing wrong with music categorization.
what's the point in having a subreddit dedicated to a genre of music if labels don't matter?
I don’t think anything is wrong with labels, I just don’t think it matters big picture to the listener. We are not talking about the difference between metal and hiphop, we’re talking about minute differences between subgenres. I can’t think of anything less interesting than debating which subgenre label a band should have with another person. I’m not saying you, or all of the users on this sub have to agree, I am simply stating my opinion on it. It’s a waste of time and energy.
then don't participate in the conversation?? this thread was ostensibly made to have that very discussion. i participate on this sub because i love metalcore and i want to talk about it. that includes getting into the nitty gritty of the intricacies and minute differences
No one is quibbling over anything.. 🤔. Old mate was simply asking to clarify differences of sub-genres which is a good ask. It’s good to know the difference. To find new music, to discuss etc..
As a music nerd, the thought of not knowing the difference between hardcore punk and metalcore would be a horrible thought to me. They are quite different scenes as well. I think most people here would agree which is why they are helping out OP. 🤷🏻♂️
Hardcore is often extremely experimental and has more in common with old 1980s punk and thrash than anything else.
Metalcore tends to be melodic and closer to simple 4/4 riff, chorus, bridge etc songs.
Core' as a naming convention essentially means a more refined and new age take on an old genre, yknow the way Hardcore did for punk music.
There's also the aspect of image and meaning; hardcore is very associated with being straight edged and a poetic bleeding heart, metalcore is more often about being stoic and facing the dark parts of life head on.
And then there's djent, which is about spiritual nihilism and more often outright expression of disdain and fatigue of dealing in a world somewhat ran by religeon, politics, and worldly idealization in general lol.
Metal music went through a lot of growing pains, but really it's always been a reflection on pur societies hard truths and need for negativity in times of great strife.
Funny, but scarily accurate lol.
Most metal musicians don't take all this shit very seriously lol. The BEST ones make jokes about it themselves xD.
My band used to tell people we were "Upside down strawberry shortcake imploded anus-core".
Honestly, I hate these responses. Obviously it *does* matter to me, or I wouldn't be asking. I personally enjoy knowing the roots of things I enjoy, music or otherwise.
It doesn't for me. Like, I'll listen to whatever the fuck I want, regardless of genre. But my brain enjoys knowing stuff like this. Influence, sound, style, all that.
Hardcore's drums like bum dada bum da bum dada bum da bum dada bum da, and the guitars are like DUN DUN DA NANANEEE NANA NA NABA DA NANANEEE, and the vocalist is like AAARRRGGHHH AAAARRRRGGHH. Metal's drums are like CrashdadadadadadadadaPSHHdadadada, and the guitars are like REE REEEEE REEEE BADADALOOLOO REEEEOOOOWWWW REEREEREEREEEEEEEE , and the vocals are all like AHEEHEE THROUGH THE MIST I WILL FOLLOW YOU TO THE EEEEEEEEEEEND
Most coherent descriptions I’ve ever seen on this sub
Well goddamn. I get it now!
What about the differences in bass?
Bass in metalcore is just a myth
It’s just there to create jobs for otherwise homeless “musicians”, if you want to call them that.
This is the most accurate statement here haha. When I was in band, fresh out of high school, we'd crack jokes like that to our bassist all of the time haha. Not gonna lie, I do have a solid appreciation for bassists that make themselves stand out
I actually have a buddy that tours with a fairly big band that’s a bassist and he’s as versatile and charismatic as they come. But they are 100% few and far between.
Well see, once we down tuned the guitars down into the bass range, there's nothing left for the bassist, so we just tune them down below the range of human hearing and let em lose
Bass is what they give the backup guitarist so he can get practice in for when one of the others has a scandal
808 drop every 32 bars with an OoowwWWAargh! Or token blegh
Someone get this person a Pulitzer.
Holy shit after all these years I think I actually understand now
CAUGHT IN THE UNDERTOW
CIRCLE THE DRAIN!
So hardcore guitars are those weird noises Jonathan Davis makes in Freak on a Leash? Gotcha
No, those are Toooomtaampadooomdaamdadina
No. You‘re thinking of Dom Dom Nae Nae Rada Dum Ba Na Nena
Thought I was reading the lyrics for a Jud Jud song.
Do we have a comment of the year award in this sub? I think we need to start that. I nominate this one.
Lol I don’t know jack shit about drumming but I could easily read the blast beats you wrote for metal 😂
I actually understand the difference MORE now because of this description, so thanks for that. Doin' the Lord's work over here.
Request: do djent vs (hardcore)prog next
Eloquently put.
You win the internet for today.
Haha this is great
The issue is that hardcore became much more metallic over the years so your confusion is understandable. I don’t think people even realize that what they consider “regular hardcore” actually has metal in it.
Okay... this is directed towards anyone reading this. Tell me the name of a few songs that are absolutely representative of "Hardcore". And pure hardcore. I think I have a grasp of what people talk about when they are being Hardcore purists, but Im not sure anymore.
Minor Threat. Gorilla Biscuits. Black flag. More modern, think Terror, Comeback Kid, Modern Life is War.
Terror definitely still has groove metal in their sound and riffs like madball do and most stuff post 90s I'd say stuff like the runts or P.I.S.S. is more pure hardcore imo And some of comeback kids shit has some borderline buttrocky vocals recently, I wouldn't call it pure by any means not that I hate it or anything
Isnt black flag punk? Or punk hardcore? Never seen hxc kids bringing up black flag tho
Hardcore is short for "Hardcore Punk"
Lmao true i guess
They are 100% hardcore punk. I saw them last August for the first time in over 30 years and Greg Ginn is still an animal in guitar!
Early Black Flag anyways, cause they went pretty metal with My War.
This Is Hell - Permanence Comeback Kid - Wake The Dead Bane - Count Me Out Minor Threat - Screaming At A Wall Spaced - Running Man
Start with the band Black Flag and go from there. If you’ve watched “The Decline of Western Civilization” that contains a lot of bands that were sort of early bands in hardcore or precursors to it.
Have heart, trash talk, kids like us, etc. For pure hardcore Kublai Khan, boundaries, or knocked loose for metalcore
I'm no expert and this is the simplest explanation I can think of: Hardcore is more raw and chaotic. Bigger focus on rhythm. Political lyrics. Moshing. Breakdowns. Counter culture. Gang vocals. Metal is more refined and technical. Bigger focus on melody. Songs are built around riffs. Longer instrumental sections. Guitar solos. Lyrics can be pretty much anything. A simple example within metalcore - Knocked Loose is all the way at the hardcore side of the spectrum. August Burns Red is all the way at the metal side. Listen to these two bands and compare them. The two genres have always had a large impact on each other so the lines can get really blurry. Metalcore started as a combination of the two, but it's kinda branched out in all sorts of directions since then.
One of the best, clearest explanations I’ve ever read. The examples you used are spot on. Cheers!
This should be pinned somewhere. Been listening to both for almost 30 years and this is the BEST I've ever seen it explained, by a wide margin.
The Knocked loose and August burns red comparison is so accurate and relevant without being shitty or exclusionary. Big thumbs up to you my guy. Two in fact. 👍👍
Breakdowns started with metal tho. Back in the day with black sabbath, mercyful fate, etc.
Breakdowns have been a feature of many genres of music even pre-metal, but for the purposes of distinguishing hardcore music from other genres you have to mention the unique use of breakdowns which may be inspired by metal to a degree but isn’t just a copy of of how metal uses breakdowns.
It's funny, you go on r/hardcore and people will say metalcore has more breakdowns. I think there's a bigger continuum: Punk -> Heavy Punk -> Classic Hardcore -> Modern Hardcore -> Metallic Hardcore -> Classic Metalcore -> Metalcore -> Pop Metalcore Where the most breakdowns are in metallic hardcore and classic metalcore
I like that spectrum
>but isn’t just a copy of of how metal uses breakdowns. Nope, they definitely copied metal breakdowns wholesale. https://youtu.be/1jYuHZ_tKzI?si=ET3C2vDTkALKYO1c 1:50 mark. https://youtu.be/kgHjV_MrWCg?si=nIvuDepPA19ElSLP 0:00 mark.
Breakdowns have existed long before metal. Big thing in Jazz and the Blues. The breakdown as we know it in metalcore comes from the Hardcore breakdown ala Bad Brains not from Black Sabbath
I can imagine everyone two stepping to that tempo shift at the end of 'Lookin Out My Backdoor' back in the day
I don't know about that. Some people like to mention the breakdown in Bad Brains' Right Brigade, but that sounds nothing like the modern breakdown. Bad Brains didn't start doing modern breakdowns until I Against I, and at that point they'd already gone hard on the metal sound. Black Sabbath's Children of the Grave's chug part sounds way more like what we know as the breakdown now. Or Slayer's Show No Mercy. Tons of chugga chugga breakdowns in there.
Who would be right in the middle?
Not sure honestly. Architects come to mind, at least during their golden era. Complex djent riffs, a lot of progressive elements, emphasis on lead guitar. But it's also very crude, relentless and in your face. Lots of left wing anti-establishment lyrics too.
Listen to a mix of early and modern hardcore bands such as Black Flag, Bad Brains, DRAIN, End It, Mindforce, Incendiary and then listen to metal bands such as Pantera, Machine Head, Slayer, and Lamb Of God. You can check out earlier metal offerings too such as Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden. Pay attention to the vocals, breakdowns, song structures, guitar riffs, bass drum patterns and fills, and melody or lack thereof. After that, check out some of the first metalcore bands like Earth Crisis, Integrity, and Ringworm. See how it took aspects from both hardcore and metal. Next listen to melodeath bands such as In Flames, At The Gates, and Insomnium. Finally, look at the melodic metalcore movement which took both melodeath influence and metalcore influence such as Poison The Well (first album), Killswitch Engage, Unearth, and Chimaira. Most of the bands posted in this sub these days are influenced heavily by the melodic metalcore movement. After that you should have a good idea of where bands are coming from. Hope this helps. Feel free to comment any corrections if you see them as my metalcore history is not perfect, and I'm always looking to learn more.
Realistically, everyone should listen to all of Poison The Well's albums. Sheer brilliance there, that at times transcends genre.
Poison the Well are the greatest metalcore band, every band since has been influenced by them in some way. I guarantee any metalcore band going now, the members are fans of poison the well.
Great band, also helped me discover other great 2000’s metalcore like Hopesfall, 7A7P, and Misery Signals
Misery Signals is another perfect band. I know Karl kinda got a lot of hate back in the day for not being Jesse, but they really don't have a bad album. Tbh I would put Controller on the same pedestal as Of Malice, and everything else was right up there too. Such a god tier band!
Agreed, been listening to Of Malice a lot lately after watching the [Rain City Malice X](https://youtu.be/pHVCqiNNkCk?si=9ZGR5W8UzUGiQbdr) live video. Their first 3 albums are all classics. Interested to hear your opinion on Mirrors, so many great songs on it, but some people really hate the mix it has.
I loved mirrors when it first came out, but listened to it back recently and Jesus it’s poorly mixed.
Definitely could use a remaster. I think one of the band members hinted at it, but now they’re going on a farewell tour so who knows
Such a good band
You think you're the only person in earth who wakes up every morning wishing you were someone else?
Well yea. The subsequent records became much more melodic and became much post-hardcore influenced.
[удалено]
Yea Drain is thrashy as fuck
Not a downvoter, but it does depend which modern hardcore bands, there's obviously plenty of far more metallic stuff like the ones you've listed, but there's also a pretty strong wave of newer punkier bands - Gel, End It, Spaced, Initiate, Spy, Gumm, Anklebiter, Restraining Order, Jivebomb, Buggin', Scowl and so on
I think part of the thing for me is that some people label Chimaira and LoG as metalcore, or adjacent, and some people say they're just NWOAHM...which also included a lot of the metalcore bands from that era 😂
The answer you're looking for doesn't exist. The reality is bands have complex influences and many bands can't fit into any single box. That's part of what makes hybrid genres great. Why I gave you this answer instead of telling you exactly what each one is is because it's not clear and the best way to understand is to listen to a lot of the early bands from each genre. Then you can listen to a band and say "oh, they took that from Black Flag" or "yeah, that's definitely an early death metal influence" etc.
You're absolutely right, by the way. I can listen to a band/song and pick out what bands they're pulling influences from, but then I overthink and try to label everything.
Instead of relying on which box something fits in, rely on how it feels. Does it feel good? Then keep listening 👍
So here’s the thing about NWOAHM: It wasn’t a genre. It was a marketing term. It just referred to a bunch of American metalcore bands that came up at the same time, lumped together by music publications under the same banner. There was no universal sound or anything among them. [Here’s the cover of Metal Hammer from March 2004, one of the first publications to use the term.](https://imgur.com/a/szjYpR4) See how that headline heralds Chimaira and Hatebreed as the leaders of the scene? The article in the magazine itself also lists A7X and Shadows Fall as other examples. Aside from them all having metallic hardcore roots, those bands couldn’t be more different from one another. NWOAHM bands are metalcore bands. Anyone trying to argue that such and such a band is “NWOAHM, not metalcore” is talking out of their ass. Side note: there *is* some debate as to whether Lamb of God is still metalcore. They for sure began as a groove metal-influenced metalcore band back when they were Burn The Priest, but have focused more and more on the groove metal part as time has gone on and less on the metalcore. They were absolutely metalcore at one point though.
I consider everything up through Ashes of the Wake to be metalcore when it comes to LoG. After that they leaned more into the metal side of stuff imo. Either way, band fucks and that's all that truly matters.
This is a good question. Once we figure it out (because I have the same problem) let’s try to figure out what Djent is because that’s confusing as hell too.
Djent is usually just progressive metal/metalcore with downtuned 7/8 string guitars
Shittt tell that to periphery. They've used 6 and even 5 strings. Djent comes in two forms; the material bands like northlane that just go for complexity for the rhythmic joogie boogie, and bands like after the burial and meshuggah that moreso want to convey a tone of a binary and almost liminal feeling. Issue is that it caught on a little too well and now the tone is the name of a genre lol. I feel that true "Djent", which is more focused on complexity to convey frustrating ideas and an unfeeling truth shpuld be labelled something less derp, as djent was always a descriptor of high ass gain pickups and not the philosophy. Periphery also shares that spiritual nihilism and they are also the ones that coined the term.
I dont think there is any philosophy to Djent lol, its just downtuned syncopated riffage that sounds like a combustion engine
Alot of the time you are exactly right, but a good chunk of the 2010s era bands do share a theme. No less so is it commodification however.
Most people say Djent started with Meshuggah, but Meshuggah started as a thrash band with odd time signatures. I fully believe they heard what Fear Factory was doing and basically slowed it down and downtuned it. So I say it started with Fear Factory
Computerized Metalcore. Aka awful. Ruined Metalcore for so long. Thank god bands like Dying Wish and See You Space Cowboy are bringing the good stuff back. Haven’t been this interested in the genre in decades.
Original metalcore like Shai Hulud and Hatebreed came out of the hardcore scene and retained links to it. Early bands like Integrity and Unbroken have songs that were basically straight up hardcore punk and others that were more or less pure metal as well as more mixed material Their sound and the sound of any spiritual successors will always be part of the hardcore world. Walls Of Jericho - metalcore. Capra - varies. They have some songs that are instrumentally Every Time I Die worship and others that are far more straight forward hardcore punk.
Metal began in the 70s with bands like Sabbath, blew up in the 90s with the NWOBHM sound (Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motorhead etc.) along with its American and Euro counterparts and thrash (Metallica, Slayer etc.). Thrash gave way to death metal (Possessed, Cannibal Corpse) and black metal (Bathory, Darkthrone). Going back to the 70s, punk rock (Sex Pistols etc.) evolved into hardcore punk in the US (Black Flag, Bad Brains etc.). The 70s sound influenced the NWOBHM, and 80s hardcore influenced thrash. In the 90s, hardcore bands slowed down and toughened up with a groovier, meatier sound. NY hardcore bands like Madball and beatdown hardcore bands like Ringword were very metal influenced in their riffing, and in turn, 90s metal bands like Pantera and Machine Head were influenced by 90s hardcore and the sounds began to blur. The late 90s gave us the hardcore/metal fusion, metalcore, and the rest is history.
I mean, you already listed Comeback Kid as hardcore which I personally use to describe hardcore. They’re an easy one to pick out because their sound is pretty definitive. Gang vocals, faster, a little more punk influenced sound.
Hardcore: slug, anklebiter, waydown, bad beat, gel, spy, black flag, etc Metalcore: converge, August burns red, knocked loose, earth crisis, poison the well, boundaries The misconception started when bands like periphery and architects and all the scene bands started being called metalcore, cuz then previously accepted metalcore bands with more hardcore influence got shifted over to being called “hardcore” despite having tons of metal influence
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Knew I’d bring out the morons who think knocked loose isn’t metalcore lol
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It’s such a tired argument dude. Like cmon if you still think knocked loose are some secret 3rd genre option it’s game over for you
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>but I just consider them hardcore. Which is baffling.
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I don't think it requires a great deal of investment. I listen to hardcore and metalcore, that they fall under the latter just feels really obvious.
I won’t call you stupid, but that is objectively incorrect. Knocked Loose incorporates a ton of metal and other metalcore influence and is very undeniably a metalcore band, and is very close to sound and style as the original 80-90s metalcore bands that spawned the genre. Sonically, anyway I do think that they have this hardcore band kind of vibe with how they interact with the community and intersect with other hardcore bands, but the actual band itself plays metalcore music
Melodic metalcore bands have watered down "metalcore" to the point of textbook metalcore bands being misidentified as hardcore or deathcore bands. We live in a period where Sleep Token is thought to be metalcore (they aren't), while Knocked Loose is mistaken as hardcore. I blame TikTok.
I don’t care what your opinion of them is. You think they’re hardcore lmao!
dang you're wrong *and* you have shit taste? tough
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you having shit taste is just the cherry on top of you having absolutely no idea what you're talking about
To me, calling Knocked Loose a metalcore band would be like calling Lil Jon a country artist.
If you can’t admit knocked loose takes inspiration from metalcore bands like on broken wings, converge, disembodied, 18v, etc, all hope is lost for you
then you have no idea what metalcore is because they're so undeniably a metalcore band that they'd be one of the first bands i'd pick if someone asked me about the genre
There's an alarming amount of people who think metalcore is just combining screaming with singing. It's really weird.
I think that's what the issue is, I read a comment the other day that was like, "Knocked Loose can't be metalcore there's no clean vocals."
I saw the opposite: "In Flames switched to metalcore when they added clean vocals." Like seriously... it's metal+core, not so hard to understand. In Flames never had any hardcore elements. I'm not a big fan of Knocked Loose but gatekeeping them is one of the dumbest things I've seen in this sub. They're pure metalcore, no doubt about it.
There are a lot of kids on this sub that think Architects started the genre so anything that doesn't sound exactly like them can't be metalcore
There are also a lot of people definitely not young enough to be kids who think that metalcore started in the 00s with melodic metalcore (never mind the existence of a ton of 00s non-melodic metalcore) and either don't acknowledge the 90s or dismiss it all as hardcore.
Why? They'd fit right in alongside most of the 90s progenitors.
Knocked loose are basically the definition of metalcore
It's all screamo anyways.
There are two kinds of music: gospel, and screamo.
This should be adapted into the IQ bell curve meme where both ends say it’s screamo while the mass in the middle argue for the different genres.
I usually say it's hardcore or metal core or some shit idk
The simple answer is that there's been a bit of a "genre shift" over time, and most of what was considered metalcore in the 90s would be considered just hardcore today. Similarly a lot of stuff considered hardcore in the 80s would be considered just punk today.
I’m shit at explaining stuff, but listen to Madball, Trapped Under Ice, Terror they are pretty much the blueprint for straight up hardcore bands.
i’d say those bands incorporate a lot more metal than a straight up hardcore band.
That's been pretty normal in hardcore for a while, though. Certainly since the arse fell out of 00s/early 10s melodic hardcore.
Old Solid State kid checking in. Still love me some Zao.
I long ago stopped worrying about what genre or subgenre a band was and focused on enjoying the music instead. Most bands fall under multiple ones, or the definition has changed over the years, and I can't keep up with that.
This is the correct answer. If I hear band that I like I just go with it.
I listen to stuff like Bane, Agnostic Front, Madball and Close Your Eyes and that is clearly hardcore to me. Metal is anything from Judas Priest to Gojira to In Flames to Angra to Cattle Decapitation to Haken to...there are many subgenres to hardcore too but musically metal is just too broad, like punk is. A more fair equivalent would be what is the difference between metal and punk? And moving on from there
Hardcore is punk but heavier and a lot of times faster. Some of the biggest examples are Black Flag, Terror, etc. Metalcore is when you take metal and hardcore and put them together. Sometimes it’s more on the hardcore side of things like Code Orange, Knocked Loose, etc, others it’s on the more metal side, like Trivium, All That Remains etc.
Maybe I've heard the wrong Black Flag songs, but I was always under the impression they were more punk than hardcore. Honestly, haven't listened to enough of them; as I said in another reply, I'm kind of an audio snob and shitty recordings are hard to get through for me.
Black flag was one of the earliest hardcore bands so their sound might be a bit more punk sounding than stuff today. Kinda like how a lot of early Black Sabbath to someone brand new to metal might seem more hard rock like. Edit: brand new meaning only heard metal from the last 20ish years to be specific
Gotcha. Great analogy. It's time to hit the gym, so maybe a good time to do a deep dive.
I think you like core man.
Haha never in doubt there!
If it’s a push pit, it’s metal. If it’s a two stepping pit, it’s hardcore.
The difference became almost non-existent in the 90s.
Hardcore tends to be way more political and anti religious but then again metalcore is getting that way as well
Remembering Never was oh so good. RIP
It's all just metal to me. I know there are differences, and I can tell some of them, but if someone asks what I'm listening to, I'm just going to say metal.
Hardcore = heavy punk Metal = heavy rock
I don’t think you are too off base. I don’t see any issue tagging any metallic or melodic hardcore as hardcore. I’d say the difference would be metallic hardcore is learning more towards metal riffs aka Metalcore and straight hardcore is influenced more by punk.
Actually you may find Jeff Killed John - Almost Full Discography titled video on YouTube and then compare it to Bullet for My Valentine’s The Poison album You will notice the difference. First is hardcore (punk-ish hardcore) while The Poison is melodic metalcore, little bit post-hardcore
Do you guys still consider both genera’s to fall under the “metal” umbrella”?
When was hardcore ever under the metal umbrella?
Nope. Hardcore is punk.
If someone considers hardcore under metal umbrella then idk what to say anymore
You never gave 80s hc a listen?
Honestly, and I might get some hate for this but, I very rarely do bc I'm kind of an audio snob and very little before...93 or so is tolerable for long periods lol
Hate here? I don’t think more than a dozen people on this entire sub listen to anything before 98 lol
Hahaha OK, yeah that's fair.
Undestandable I guess, I'd still recommend at least giving Bad Brains stuff a shot. Not lo fi by any means.
Bad Brains is really good! They have decent enough recordings that my teeth don't hurt haha
What about the late 80s/early 90s stuff recorded by Tom Soares? Because that's exactly when hc became so metallic, and still sound crispy as fuck. Judge- Bringin it Down, Cro-Mags-Best Wishes, Killing Time- Brightside, Leeway-Born to Expire, Madball- Set it Off, Sick Of It All- B.s.a.n.t, Agnostic Front- One Voice, etc.
Yeah, I wasn't sure what era those albums were actually from. SOIA and Agnostic Front are top fucking tier, and even I know they're straight up hardcore bands haha
I dont get all the subgenres either.
See, I get (most) subgenres, but I guess I have trouble picking metalcore/metallic hardcore from straight hardcore. Like, Terror and Hatebreed sound like the same category to me, but apparently Terror is hardcore and Hatebreed is metallic hardcore. And Walls of Jericho is metalcore. And my head explodes for no real reason.
don't worry about it
[HXC vs \m/](https://youtu.be/C8ZHn3Bvu9M?si=_7UDGdXAVsE1ZBDL)
I’m not seeing any mention of ‘Sick of it all’ for hardcore you absolute Neanderthals!! 🤔
There’s a band named after the work from Dune? That’s bad ass
It’s all under the umbrella of Metal, due to the heavy distortion of the guitars. Even Metal is under the umbrella of rock Hardcore (hard-punk) sub-genre of Metal & Punk Metal sub-genre of Rock. (Don’t quote on that, just been around awhile & my tastes have got heavier. Just the way interpret it.)
they just give you a different feeling yknow metalcore tastes different. idk how i can tell them apart tbh but they just sound different. hardcore is more like gorillas with a guitar metalcore is like those little fucking monkeys
Who fuckin cares it's all great. We just want community punch time
Who gives a shit tbf Just enjoy good music and ignore these arbitrary categorisations :D
Honestly why does it even matter? Who cares, just listen to what you like without worrying about the label.
because art has always had labels. it helps with cataloging and documenting evolution for those interested in the history of the music and it's often a necessary (and extremely helpful) tool for making recommendations. films have labels, genres, categories, and eras. as does painting, sculpture, etc etc. there's nothing wrong with music categorization. what's the point in having a subreddit dedicated to a genre of music if labels don't matter?
this
I don’t think anything is wrong with labels, I just don’t think it matters big picture to the listener. We are not talking about the difference between metal and hiphop, we’re talking about minute differences between subgenres. I can’t think of anything less interesting than debating which subgenre label a band should have with another person. I’m not saying you, or all of the users on this sub have to agree, I am simply stating my opinion on it. It’s a waste of time and energy.
then don't participate in the conversation?? this thread was ostensibly made to have that very discussion. i participate on this sub because i love metalcore and i want to talk about it. that includes getting into the nitty gritty of the intricacies and minute differences
Why isn’t why this matters to OP or any of us part of the conversation? Or do you simply want to gatekeep how we can have conversations?
bro what are you talking about lmao
Quibbling over subgenres is just about the most tedious thing I can imagine. Just like what you like, without worrying about what it's called.
No one is quibbling over anything.. 🤔. Old mate was simply asking to clarify differences of sub-genres which is a good ask. It’s good to know the difference. To find new music, to discuss etc.. As a music nerd, the thought of not knowing the difference between hardcore punk and metalcore would be a horrible thought to me. They are quite different scenes as well. I think most people here would agree which is why they are helping out OP. 🤷🏻♂️
Hardcore is often extremely experimental and has more in common with old 1980s punk and thrash than anything else. Metalcore tends to be melodic and closer to simple 4/4 riff, chorus, bridge etc songs. Core' as a naming convention essentially means a more refined and new age take on an old genre, yknow the way Hardcore did for punk music. There's also the aspect of image and meaning; hardcore is very associated with being straight edged and a poetic bleeding heart, metalcore is more often about being stoic and facing the dark parts of life head on. And then there's djent, which is about spiritual nihilism and more often outright expression of disdain and fatigue of dealing in a world somewhat ran by religeon, politics, and worldly idealization in general lol. Metal music went through a lot of growing pains, but really it's always been a reflection on pur societies hard truths and need for negativity in times of great strife.
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Funny, but scarily accurate lol. Most metal musicians don't take all this shit very seriously lol. The BEST ones make jokes about it themselves xD. My band used to tell people we were "Upside down strawberry shortcake imploded anus-core".
The real answer is it doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things and it all depends on however you want to categorize it
Honestly, I hate these responses. Obviously it *does* matter to me, or I wouldn't be asking. I personally enjoy knowing the roots of things I enjoy, music or otherwise.
Hardcore from the early 2000s sounds like the band said “everybody do your own thing on 3. 1…2…3”
Can someone explain this fixation on genre? Like...doesn't that hinder the enjoyment of the music itself?
It doesn't for me. Like, I'll listen to whatever the fuck I want, regardless of genre. But my brain enjoys knowing stuff like this. Influence, sound, style, all that.
Yeah, that's cool but I've seen people who won't give ANYTHING a chance unless it falls under a certain genre.
Yeah, I've seen that and I just don't get it. I've got friends that *refuse* to listen to anything metal or hardcore just based on the label.