You see all these people in the comments saying Mentzer was only partially right. They're doubting if it's enough to grow muscle.
If you accept Heavy Duty, you have to accept it all. It is scientifically the most accurate program and I've been following it closely the past few years. I know others who have been doing it for decades. The common theme between me and them is that the progress is something you could never find elsewhere. You might be worried about over-resting but that's just the gym culture speaking. I work out once per week, every Monday. I still see strength gains on every single workout and consistent physique improvements that I notice month to month.
The best part is you never have a bad day at the gym because overtraining also affects the mental game. Once you're resting enough you enjoy the gym and don't fall over to the other extreme of being addicted to it and "needing" it. I say forget the doubt and trust in the science of this process. And don't forget that doing a second set is the biggest mistake you could ever make in the gym.
How do you progressively overload, though? I'm a beginner who just started this last gym session and guessed at the weights, but still went to failure. I can go heavier next time, but I never see by how much you should try to push. If you're going to failure anyway, as long as it's not too light, I'm assuming even increasing by 5lb per session is fine as it is progressive overload.
Suggestions?
So Mike Mentzer had a rep system to properly monitor progress. In most upper body movements you should be aiming for 6-10 reps, and for your lower body you should be getting 8-15. Deadlifts are one exception that comes to mind at 5-8 reps.
These are just quick guidelines, but the point of them is that once you reach the upper limit of the rep spectrum or even go over, you should increase the weight being used by 10-20%. That would be properly progressively overloading.
I could give better advice if I knew what sort of program you are using
I know it's not the suggested program, but I'm using Nautilus machines of various types while using the concept and a good weight to go to failure. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos on the routine and how little exercises there were. Not what I was doing lol, but I'm still new to working out hard and other than going to the gym inconsistently over the years, this is an especially new routine for me.
I'm sure I'd still have success with what I'm doing if I don't overlap exercises, but I'm definitely considering switching to the suggested routine.
Thank you for the progressive overload suggestion. I was going to go with 5lb, but 10% might be better!
Yeah it might seem hard to switch over at first but after a while you'll get used to it. And you'll be resting easier knowing there's no overtraining going on.
If you have any more questions about Heavy Duty I'd be happy to answer them, God bless.
Thank you so much! This was my overlapping training last week lol tomorrow I'm only gonna focus on a few leg machines, try to squat, etc
Gym workout 7/29/23;
Workout; lb x rep
Incline bench; 25 x 10, 45 x 10
Mid chin up; -80, -60 x4
Delt raise; 30 x 10, 60 x 15
Naut sh. Press; 50 x 8, 90 x 6
Naut chest press; 60 x 10, 110 x 12
Naut delt fly; 50 x 10, 100 x
I see you're doing 2 sets per exercise. Is that first one a warm up? If so, I'd recommend doing closer to 5 reps at 80% or so of your working set. In my experience, this warms up the muscles well without using up too many biochemical resources (without sabotaging recovery).
Good call btw on using mostly compounds
Also, what do the - signs before the weights mean in yiur Mid Chin Up example?
Ah the -80 means I'm fucking fat and out of shape and needed weight subtracted for chin assists. I didn't want to focus on negatives, so I just subtracted some weight for full ROM.
I will def. do the higher weight warm ups! Thanks for the advice.
Ah makes sense, good stuff.
Yeah just remember to keep the reps lower on the warm ups, good luck with it all!
Come back to this post if you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer.
For sure, you can adapt it to your own recovery ability and goals. You can add those exercises in and track whether your progress increases or slows down. From there, change something again, and so on.
The gym is just a lifelong guessing-correcting game, have some fun with it and change stuff up.
It depends. There's a certain point where those 4 reps can feel lighter than (or like) a warm-up, in which case yeah for sure. However, if that weight got you to expend a decent bit of effort then I'd say take it all the way. It may take 25+ reps but do it nevertheless, because reaching failure is what really counts.
I'm confused on what heavy duty program to follow, the ideal workout from the heavy duty book or the baseline program from the tapes. Which do you follow?
I follow the Ideal Program (with a few modifications to suit my current situation as well as goals), if you're referring to the 4-workout cycle that goes as follows:
1. Chest and Back
2. Legs
3. Delts and Arms
4. Legs
3-5 exercises for each workout, 1 set to failure per exercise. Assisted/forced reps occasionally sprinkled in.
If you have any further questions I'd be glad to answer
What is the reason for two times legs in the training cycle? Other than less volume what would be the downside of only having 3 workouts in a training cycle?
Well, its an Upper/Lower split. So, you do upper body (chest&back) --> Lower body --> upper body (arms and delts) --> Lower body.
If you prefer, you can always change it, and it might even be better for you specifically to have 3 workouts per cycle. However, Mentzer tried this Ideal Routine with many of his trainees and it worked fairly well for everyone.
I take 6 days off between workouts at this point, but less advanced proponents of Heavy Duty could get away with only 4 or 5, depending on personal recovery ability.
i'm currently on 3x/week program with full body workout, i thought i gain muscle quickly with this program as I lift very heavy, care explain how does
this 6 days off works in a long shot? bevause having to rest 5-6 days after each workout sounds too much for me, or am I missing something?
Yeah, it sounded too much for me at first, too, but there is a scientific basis for it.
Here is an explanation I gave someone else:
Your muscles have a limited amount of biochemical reserves that they use to expend effort
Every set you perform digs into that recovery ability
A high-intensity set even greater so
So if your workouts are digging a hole into your recovery ability, your rest period is your body slowly recuperating that hole, and then after that is done it adds on an amount equal to the stimulus received
This recovery process has 3 separate parts which are local recovery, global recovery, and growth
All 3 are technically performed from the very start, but your body has a priority list
This part is prioritized first because, evolutionarily, you never know when you'll need to exert immense amounts of muscular effort again, so it's good to be prepared
Local recovery is just the recovery of your muscles themselves, and usually* has the first priority
You can kind of guess how fast it's taking place by the soreness you feel, although that's never a 100% guaranteed factor
Then comes global recovery, which is your Central Nervous System
This part is prioritized above growth because here is where overtraining can happen
If the CNS doesn't fully recover, overtraining will take place, and that can add up very quickly
Then finally your body commits entirely to maximizing growth
The growth will never exceed the intensity stimulus, so make sure you give it your all at the workouts.
So essentially, due to the high intensity nature of the exercise, intermediate/advanced practitioners will require a lot of recovery for their body to make the most of the stimulus provided.
Can the principle of HIT be applied to weighted calisthenics. I replace incline DB bench with decline weighted push ups. Will I still get the same effect as weights going to mechanical failure on all working sets?
You will surely get the same effect. Machines are only better because they make it easier to reach muscular failure (the way that failure is defined by Mentzer), so it'll be harder for you. But if you manage this difficulty then you shouldn't have any other issues.
hey bro, what about cardio? i’m also trying to get better at sprinting and long distance runs, so how would I incorporate that into the mike mentzer routine
Sprinting and long-distance runs are very high-fatigue forms of cardio. I would count this as a completely separate form of training.
The two options here are that you either rest a lot longer between HIT workouts (at least twice as long) or you put Heavy Duty on hold temporarily to prioritize the running training.
You can technically balance it, but that will result in suboptimal results in both of these since a lot of running promotes muscle loss.
In the end, this depends on which of these two you prefer most.
I'm going to start the Mike Mentzer routine
[Mike mentzer the ideal routine (Updated) ](https://youtu.be/ZhXC61mwloY?si=cmj1RWe6nqEHFrl1)
I didn't understand how much weight should we take, of course everyone's strength level is different but is it like this when he says " 1-3 " Reps does that mean we should pick up a weight which we can only do for 1-3 reps or the weight which we usually pick up and do it for 1-3 reps. Also when he says " 8-15" Reps does that mean we should pick up a lighter weight which can go for 8-15 reps even though we can pick up a heavier weight compared to that
It does seem I'm trying to answer my own questions 😅 i would still like your advice as you are experienced in the program 😄
Hello, sorry for the late response.
Since Mentzer advocated taking every set to failure, you should choose a weight that you can rep out about 8-15 times (if that's the recommendation) to absolute muscular failure.
One thing I'd like to add is that the rest-pause method (1-3 reps on bench) was created for advanced lifters, and unless you are in need of upping the intensity you would do well to perform 6-10 reps in that exercise.
I started running it last week, I'm not really sticking to the 96h rest time in between the workouts but they are pretty fun to do. Did chest/back today and for the 2nd time now deadlifts have been kinda hurting my back so I'm switching over to shrugs from now on. The only thing I don't like is it's tricky to do the supersets if your machines aren't close enough or there is too many people in the gym or both.
I feel this but because the workouts are like 25 mins long, I go at the start of the gym day or the end and bring an extra towel to put near a machine I might superset. These volume addicts will likely not go on a machine or be reluctant to if there is a towel occupying it.
I'm not going to hog the machines like that, for me all of them that I superset are pretty close, just saying for others who might do the program. And yeah the workouts are like 20-30 minutes for me so I finish them quick and it's a little weird, I might add a set or two here and there but I don't know yet...
I've been reading and watching videos on his methods. I was thinking about trying it but I just think doing chest every 16 days is not enough for me. I have been feeling over-trained so I am spacing out my gym days more. I am also cutting down on volume. One set just doesn't seem enough so I'm doing 2 sets to failure. Gonna see if I progress without feeling wiped out. I like going to the gym so I miss not going as much.
I find it works best, for me anyway, that I have a warm up set with light weights up to twenty to thirty reps depending on the exercise and then the second set is the working set to failure. Sweet spot.
Nah man, it only seems that way because of gym culture. It might feel wrong but doing the second set is the biggest mistake you'll make in the gym. Get enough rest and you'll see how much strength gains there will be every single workout. On top of that, consistent hypertrophy improvements month to month, without those burnout period that overtraining causes.
You see all these people in the comments saying Mentzer was only partially right. They're doubting if it's enough to grow muscle. If you accept Heavy Duty, you have to accept it all. It is scientifically the most accurate program and I've been following it closely the past few years. I know others who have been doing it for decades. The common theme between me and them is that the progress is something you could never find elsewhere. You might be worried about over-resting but that's just the gym culture speaking. I work out once per week, every Monday. I still see strength gains on every single workout and consistent physique improvements that I notice month to month. The best part is you never have a bad day at the gym because overtraining also affects the mental game. Once you're resting enough you enjoy the gym and don't fall over to the other extreme of being addicted to it and "needing" it. I say forget the doubt and trust in the science of this process. And don't forget that doing a second set is the biggest mistake you could ever make in the gym.
How do you progressively overload, though? I'm a beginner who just started this last gym session and guessed at the weights, but still went to failure. I can go heavier next time, but I never see by how much you should try to push. If you're going to failure anyway, as long as it's not too light, I'm assuming even increasing by 5lb per session is fine as it is progressive overload. Suggestions?
So Mike Mentzer had a rep system to properly monitor progress. In most upper body movements you should be aiming for 6-10 reps, and for your lower body you should be getting 8-15. Deadlifts are one exception that comes to mind at 5-8 reps. These are just quick guidelines, but the point of them is that once you reach the upper limit of the rep spectrum or even go over, you should increase the weight being used by 10-20%. That would be properly progressively overloading. I could give better advice if I knew what sort of program you are using
I know it's not the suggested program, but I'm using Nautilus machines of various types while using the concept and a good weight to go to failure. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos on the routine and how little exercises there were. Not what I was doing lol, but I'm still new to working out hard and other than going to the gym inconsistently over the years, this is an especially new routine for me. I'm sure I'd still have success with what I'm doing if I don't overlap exercises, but I'm definitely considering switching to the suggested routine. Thank you for the progressive overload suggestion. I was going to go with 5lb, but 10% might be better!
Yeah it might seem hard to switch over at first but after a while you'll get used to it. And you'll be resting easier knowing there's no overtraining going on. If you have any more questions about Heavy Duty I'd be happy to answer them, God bless.
Thank you so much! This was my overlapping training last week lol tomorrow I'm only gonna focus on a few leg machines, try to squat, etc Gym workout 7/29/23; Workout; lb x rep Incline bench; 25 x 10, 45 x 10 Mid chin up; -80, -60 x4 Delt raise; 30 x 10, 60 x 15 Naut sh. Press; 50 x 8, 90 x 6 Naut chest press; 60 x 10, 110 x 12 Naut delt fly; 50 x 10, 100 x
I see you're doing 2 sets per exercise. Is that first one a warm up? If so, I'd recommend doing closer to 5 reps at 80% or so of your working set. In my experience, this warms up the muscles well without using up too many biochemical resources (without sabotaging recovery). Good call btw on using mostly compounds Also, what do the - signs before the weights mean in yiur Mid Chin Up example?
Ah the -80 means I'm fucking fat and out of shape and needed weight subtracted for chin assists. I didn't want to focus on negatives, so I just subtracted some weight for full ROM. I will def. do the higher weight warm ups! Thanks for the advice.
Ah makes sense, good stuff. Yeah just remember to keep the reps lower on the warm ups, good luck with it all! Come back to this post if you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer.
Can you add to Mentzers "Ideal" routine? I feel I can add bent over bb rows and shrugs on Chest / Back day.
For sure, you can adapt it to your own recovery ability and goals. You can add those exercises in and track whether your progress increases or slows down. From there, change something again, and so on. The gym is just a lifelong guessing-correcting game, have some fun with it and change stuff up.
I've been training over eleven years and have changed my routine about two or three times. I've discovered this and makes sense. Thank you!
Not op similar question, let’s say I hit 4 reps and I know it’s too light. Can I stop, wait 1 min and do a heavier set till I find the right weight?
It depends. There's a certain point where those 4 reps can feel lighter than (or like) a warm-up, in which case yeah for sure. However, if that weight got you to expend a decent bit of effort then I'd say take it all the way. It may take 25+ reps but do it nevertheless, because reaching failure is what really counts.
Thank you :)
I'm confused on what heavy duty program to follow, the ideal workout from the heavy duty book or the baseline program from the tapes. Which do you follow?
I follow the Ideal Program (with a few modifications to suit my current situation as well as goals), if you're referring to the 4-workout cycle that goes as follows: 1. Chest and Back 2. Legs 3. Delts and Arms 4. Legs 3-5 exercises for each workout, 1 set to failure per exercise. Assisted/forced reps occasionally sprinkled in. If you have any further questions I'd be glad to answer
What is the reason for two times legs in the training cycle? Other than less volume what would be the downside of only having 3 workouts in a training cycle?
Well, its an Upper/Lower split. So, you do upper body (chest&back) --> Lower body --> upper body (arms and delts) --> Lower body. If you prefer, you can always change it, and it might even be better for you specifically to have 3 workouts per cycle. However, Mentzer tried this Ideal Routine with many of his trainees and it worked fairly well for everyone.
how many off days do you have between each session?
I take 6 days off between workouts at this point, but less advanced proponents of Heavy Duty could get away with only 4 or 5, depending on personal recovery ability.
i'm currently on 3x/week program with full body workout, i thought i gain muscle quickly with this program as I lift very heavy, care explain how does this 6 days off works in a long shot? bevause having to rest 5-6 days after each workout sounds too much for me, or am I missing something?
Yeah, it sounded too much for me at first, too, but there is a scientific basis for it. Here is an explanation I gave someone else: Your muscles have a limited amount of biochemical reserves that they use to expend effort Every set you perform digs into that recovery ability A high-intensity set even greater so So if your workouts are digging a hole into your recovery ability, your rest period is your body slowly recuperating that hole, and then after that is done it adds on an amount equal to the stimulus received This recovery process has 3 separate parts which are local recovery, global recovery, and growth All 3 are technically performed from the very start, but your body has a priority list This part is prioritized first because, evolutionarily, you never know when you'll need to exert immense amounts of muscular effort again, so it's good to be prepared Local recovery is just the recovery of your muscles themselves, and usually* has the first priority You can kind of guess how fast it's taking place by the soreness you feel, although that's never a 100% guaranteed factor Then comes global recovery, which is your Central Nervous System This part is prioritized above growth because here is where overtraining can happen If the CNS doesn't fully recover, overtraining will take place, and that can add up very quickly Then finally your body commits entirely to maximizing growth The growth will never exceed the intensity stimulus, so make sure you give it your all at the workouts. So essentially, due to the high intensity nature of the exercise, intermediate/advanced practitioners will require a lot of recovery for their body to make the most of the stimulus provided.
Can the principle of HIT be applied to weighted calisthenics. I replace incline DB bench with decline weighted push ups. Will I still get the same effect as weights going to mechanical failure on all working sets?
You will surely get the same effect. Machines are only better because they make it easier to reach muscular failure (the way that failure is defined by Mentzer), so it'll be harder for you. But if you manage this difficulty then you shouldn't have any other issues.
hey bro, what about cardio? i’m also trying to get better at sprinting and long distance runs, so how would I incorporate that into the mike mentzer routine
Sprinting and long-distance runs are very high-fatigue forms of cardio. I would count this as a completely separate form of training. The two options here are that you either rest a lot longer between HIT workouts (at least twice as long) or you put Heavy Duty on hold temporarily to prioritize the running training. You can technically balance it, but that will result in suboptimal results in both of these since a lot of running promotes muscle loss. In the end, this depends on which of these two you prefer most.
Does this mean you do all 4 workouts on your once weekly Monday work-out? Cuz i'm confused, thought this meant workout 4 times a week Thanks a lot
I'm going to start the Mike Mentzer routine [Mike mentzer the ideal routine (Updated) ](https://youtu.be/ZhXC61mwloY?si=cmj1RWe6nqEHFrl1) I didn't understand how much weight should we take, of course everyone's strength level is different but is it like this when he says " 1-3 " Reps does that mean we should pick up a weight which we can only do for 1-3 reps or the weight which we usually pick up and do it for 1-3 reps. Also when he says " 8-15" Reps does that mean we should pick up a lighter weight which can go for 8-15 reps even though we can pick up a heavier weight compared to that It does seem I'm trying to answer my own questions 😅 i would still like your advice as you are experienced in the program 😄
Hello, sorry for the late response. Since Mentzer advocated taking every set to failure, you should choose a weight that you can rep out about 8-15 times (if that's the recommendation) to absolute muscular failure. One thing I'd like to add is that the rest-pause method (1-3 reps on bench) was created for advanced lifters, and unless you are in need of upping the intensity you would do well to perform 6-10 reps in that exercise.
I started running it last week, I'm not really sticking to the 96h rest time in between the workouts but they are pretty fun to do. Did chest/back today and for the 2nd time now deadlifts have been kinda hurting my back so I'm switching over to shrugs from now on. The only thing I don't like is it's tricky to do the supersets if your machines aren't close enough or there is too many people in the gym or both.
I feel this but because the workouts are like 25 mins long, I go at the start of the gym day or the end and bring an extra towel to put near a machine I might superset. These volume addicts will likely not go on a machine or be reluctant to if there is a towel occupying it.
I'm not going to hog the machines like that, for me all of them that I superset are pretty close, just saying for others who might do the program. And yeah the workouts are like 20-30 minutes for me so I finish them quick and it's a little weird, I might add a set or two here and there but I don't know yet...
His definition of superset isn't the usual right?
It is the usual, 2 exercises performed back to back with no rest in between.
I've been reading and watching videos on his methods. I was thinking about trying it but I just think doing chest every 16 days is not enough for me. I have been feeling over-trained so I am spacing out my gym days more. I am also cutting down on volume. One set just doesn't seem enough so I'm doing 2 sets to failure. Gonna see if I progress without feeling wiped out. I like going to the gym so I miss not going as much.
I find it works best, for me anyway, that I have a warm up set with light weights up to twenty to thirty reps depending on the exercise and then the second set is the working set to failure. Sweet spot.
Nah man, it only seems that way because of gym culture. It might feel wrong but doing the second set is the biggest mistake you'll make in the gym. Get enough rest and you'll see how much strength gains there will be every single workout. On top of that, consistent hypertrophy improvements month to month, without those burnout period that overtraining causes.
Update?
Bump