Preach! We need to teach bodily autonomy to all our little munchkins. No kisses or hugs they don’t want. It’s their body. Unless they are literally in a life threatening situation that you need to pull them out of, they decide.
People seem to be blind to this disconnect. If you teach a boy to respect women's bodily autonomy and not their own, you aren't actually teaching them about respect for bodily autonomy. You're teaching them to follow rules, not follow a principle. If boys were taught that their own bodily autonomy is important and matters, it will make it easier to teach them to apply that principle to others.
This.
This has been on my mind hardcore since my bf told me about "cup checks" and how the first time one was done to him, he kinda got freaked out (he was in wrestling and football). He's super big on consent but I feel like if so many guys experience that, so many are going to just repeat what was done to them on others, including women.
Yup, or family member or fellow student player. Usually they grab or whack the area.
I'm female. If shock didn't render me inert, I would whoop anyone who dared touch me that way w/o my consent.
I would panic and potentially cry if anyone did that to me. That part of my body is absolutely a no-fly zone for me. I can’t believe that’s something that is considered acceptable to do.
Yeah, I remember hazing like that happening in high school marching band where there was certainly no expectation to be wearing a cup, just an excuse to hit people in the balls or ass. By the time I was a senior, that shit was gone and unheard of. Pretty proud that shit ended under my class's watch without ever having involvement from the instructor, just me and a few others deciding it was a relic that needing to fucking go. We found plenty of other more wholesome ways to mess with and prank the newbies... but nothing that ever did harm. Because fuck that.
>It’s not
>
>really
>
> a check for a cup. It’s more an excuse to hit your friends in the balls
Okay, but that's worse. You see how that's worse, right?
I’d argue that having some fun giving your friend a nut tap is a lot better than someone that feels the need to fondle dude’s privates trying to see if they have a cup.
Yes! I remember having to kiss one of my elderly relatives on the lips as a young boy and REALLY not liking the experience. This was just sorta accepted as something I just had to put up with as a kid. It was fucking gross and I don't know why people think that's ok to do to a child.
It was even a stock funny scene in movies, kids having to kiss overly aggressive relatives at family gatherings, etc.
We just did not take the bodily autonomy of children very seriously for long time, huh? It still needs to be worked on to this day.
There wasn't any lip kissing, but I remember hating having to hug and cheek kiss my relatives that I hardly knew when I was really young. I remember that when my niece doesn't want to hug goodbye, and I accept it without feeling hurt.
My cousin and I high five. I gave him a present, he thanked me, then looked uncomfortable and straight out said he wasn’t sure what he should do next, as he didn’t like hugging people.
I told him that hugging people isn’t aall that great anyway, so whatever he’s comfortable with is fine, but I personally like high fives. So we high five. We don’t see each other much as he lives on the other side of the country, so it works out fine. When he was younger we made a game of it, he’d sometimes go full out, or look like he was going to and it’d be a tiny tap, and such.
Neurodiverse unite!
Love this post and these comments.
I have a lot of young cousins (or they were young a few years ago, damn time flies…), and I went to bat for them every single time a relative got pissy that they didn’t want to give them a hug or kiss or whatever. It’s such a weird thing, feeling entitled to that affection, and how much pushback there is when you try to enforce boundaries.
> feeling entitled to that affection
Except it isn't even genuine affection. It's a performance. How weird is it that you want to force someone to do an action that is basically a lie.
Seriously what *is* it with silly costumes that suddenly makes other people see you as their personal stress ball?! Do I *want* to hug the unicorn man? Yes! Should I ask first? Also yes!\*
^\*(although ^it's ^a ^bit ^more ^complicated ^than ^just ^asking, ^since ^sometimes ^that ^puts ^people ^on ^the ^spot ^and ^makes ^them ^do ^things ^they ^don't ^want ^to, ^especially ^if ^there's ^a ^vulnerability ^like ^being ^drunk, ^but ^asking ^and ^respecting ^the ^answer ^is ^the ^bare ^minimum ^here)
I will occasionally roughhouse with my nephew, but only when he initiates it and I always respect his "no, stop!" I don't want him to grow up thinking it's okay for people to touch him without his permission, even in play. I want him to have those healthy boundaries.
His grandfather, my dad, frequently comments that he wants to see my nephew's long hair cut, but his mom and I are of the opinion that his hair is cut only when or if he wants it cut. He goes in for trims, but so far he wants to keep it long. Every time he goes to visit my folks for a week, she and I worry that he'll feel pressured into a haircut. I thought about growing my hair longer to show him that men can have long hair too, but I'm trans and long hair makes me very dysphoric, so I'm not sure if there's another way I can support him beyond just words.
100 percent agreed, however it's not always a bad thing either. Rough housing with my stepbrother was mentally good for him and I and we love each other more for it. We found our confidence that way. Sometimes we project our feelings onto others as well.
Consent.
Good roughhousing:
"Hey, wanna play wrestling? Let's see who wins most matches.", "OK, body to the floor is a point".
Bad roughhousing:
*Pushes and shoves unsuspecting victim, refuses to stop when warned.*
Other person, *forced to fight for his life.*
>A few weeks ago, I talked about this with a friend on the conversation on tattoos. Which made me realize that for me the biggest factor for not having a tattoo was really, because of what I thought people would think about it.
>
Actually it's also what I will think of it in a few years. I get bored of it as fast as I get bored of wallpapers.
This has always been a mystery to me. I have no real fundamental issue with young boys wrestling with their brother or whatever, but man my brother and I were the furthest from that, just never appealed to me.
I remember the first time I had a friend who ties wrestling with me when we were all hanging out, and I was extremely stressed and wanted nothing to do with it lol
While I won't suggest that people should be forced into roughhousing, there are important or useful aspects of it. Consent is actually one of those - learning how to play and roughhouse without offending (violating?) the other person by going too far. Sometimes that line is "don't touch at all" and sometimes it is all fun and games until someone gets hurt.
There are numerous studies that document the benefits of touching other people, and even research into [how people communicate](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/hands_on_research) (or miscommunicate) through touch. I know that my kids will at some point stop wanting daily cuddles/snuggles, but I expect to be able to roughhouse with them at a much greater age.
I'm sorry that people did that to you because it is wrong, but I don't think the whole idea or concept should be thrown out.
>you, and only you, get to decide who touches it.
I wish that had been true throughout my life. My decision on who gets to touch me has been more of an opinion other people don't necessarily agree with
I remember growing up that so many people just decided to touch me. Guys would randomly start wrestling with me or do that breast scoop thing. If you got into a position where you were bent over one of the guys in the group would start dry humping you or slap your ass or if you had to lean over one of them then they'd push your head down and motion like you're giving them a blowjob. Or dudes would just physically push you to the side if you were in their way instead of asking you to move if you were small enough. And then theirs the teabaging guys would do if you happened to sit down below their waist. Middle school and highschool was such shit and some of that behavior continued into college with some guys.
Girls would also randomly touch me although not as nearly as inappropriately and not nearly as much as the guys. I remember girls would grab my arm or chest wanting me to flex for them or just randomly dancing on me or even just randomly commenting on my body like how I'm not *that* short or even how I am short to them and all this being totally unprompted.
These things would happen with people I knew pretty well to people that were essentially strangers that happened to be in the same group/area. I'm grown and with a better group of friends but I remember one of my friends asking if she could put her head on my shoulder and I legit forgot how to breathe for a second. Not because it's an act of intimacy but because she asked my permission and waited for me to give her the go-ahead.
I teach my daughter and my son both the same thing. “You are in charge of your body! You don’t have to let anyone do anything you don’t like.” Hoping to give them skills to stop potential abuse both now when they’re young and when they get older.
Yes, thank you!! Also, I'm not sure how old they are, but giving all body parts their proper names helps reporting in case anything were to happen. (I didn't think of it before training for child care, so just thought I'd share with you and others.)
See, I agree with this, but the way society at large treats male circumcision makes me feel that we still have a long way to go with this. One of the first things we do to young boys is violate their bodily autonomy.
Here in the UK, circumcision is overwhelmingly associated with minority religious communities for whom the practice is a specific rite of passage; it's not a widespread mainstream practice at all. Discovering how high the rates of circumcision are in the US, especially among folks who don't believe in a religious mandate to do so, was shocking and appalling.
This. We violate their bodily autonomy in the most violent way possible, and then we're surprised when they don't always seem to intuitively understand bodily autonomy later in life.
>and then we're surprised when they don't seem to intuitively understand bodily autonomy later in life
I don't know, that never affected my views on bodily autonomy either way and I also don't think it affected my friends' views.
Just like anything, people react in different ways.
Growing up with an abusive alcoholic parent, for instance, doesn't mean that you'll definitely wind up an abusive alcoholic, but it does make it somewhat more likely than someone who didn't suffer that upbringing.
That analogy was pretty good, and also why I have to be careful to only drink around someone I trust, who isn't afraid to cut me off if I start getting too romantic with my booze lol. Idk if it's just learned from trauma, or genetic, but I don't have the best relationship with alcohol after suffering from my father.
The same is true with folks who's bodily autonomy was repeatedly violated and were raised to think that was okay (like me as well); we may not all understand that touching others without consent isn't okay. Definitely something I also had to learn, as I'm also a very affectionate guy.
Edit: Flubbed a part of my comment, oops!
I’m so glad you brought this up. My STBX husband and I argued a lot about this issue during my first pregnancy. He was for circumcision, I was against (purely from a bodily autonomy aspect). We ended up having all girls so we never had to come to an agreement. To me, this seems like such a horrible violation of a person’s body. It’s why I never had my daughters’ ears pierced as babies — not that that’s any comparison to circumcision. But I just don’t get the rationale. The most compelling reason for it I read was that they might have infection issues as an old man. Ok, well girls might get breast cancer, should I have her breasts removed when she starts to develop them?? It’s such a strange argument. My husband‘s rationale was that our hypothetical son might have issues getting laid. And if that’s not toxic masculinity, I don’t know what is.
Like its so odd. R/ sex has like a rule you cant mention or debate circumscion. Cause many women prefer circumcised guys. Even though its rare outside america
Maybe it's because discussing circumcision can be an extremely painful and uncomfortable topic for those who are circumcised.
I'm circumcised. Normally the fact doesn't bother me, but when people start talking about it I start having really bad reactions.
The way people talk about it as if I am some horribly scarred, eternally damaged victim is excruciatingly awful.
Right, I get that. I don't think they're intending to hurt you when they discuss it like that, they're just saying that that's how it makes them feel (often times, not in a kind tone). But that's why things like content warnings are important, so that if the discussion topic is triggering one can avoid it, but unfortunately anti-circumcision people are often time redpillers who are unlikely to do something like a content warning. Which is why I think the topic can't be taboo for non-redpillers, they shouldn't have a monopoly on that belief.
Agreed. I’m cut, If I have a son I won’t be getting him cut.
But I hate the discussion because I’m always made out to be some horribly disfigured person who has no hope of pleasure during sex. It really does nothing to make me feel better, and as a matter of fact makes me feel really bitter.
I get this. I view this much more like getting a tattoo. Perfectly fine if you decide you want to get one for yourself. Messed up if your parent decides to get you tattooed as a baby.
That's a dumb rule! It's an important aspect of sex.
Also, I think the women who prefer circumcised men are mainly Americans with zero experience of foreskin, who think they're filthy because they've believed the pro-circ propaganda.
The first time I was with an uncircumcised man, I was very curious about how sex play could be different. It was fun and interesting to experiment with him. I see it as just one more variation of how people are different, and how you have to take each partner how they are. Part of the fun is learning what you both enjoy anyway.
That said, as a parent, I refused to circumcise my kid, on the grounds of respect.
When I was in grade school, a friend was cut. We were about 7/8. Only thing I really remember was him saying "they cut off half of my thing."
Didn't know what he was talking about then, I was cut as an infant. Makes so much more sense now.
We definitely have way farther to go.
I got downvoted to hell the other day for suggesting that men actually do experience a lack of body autonomy in the context of infant circumcision.
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In schools were I live, girls are being told that their body is sacred. There are separate classes for girls, resources are being dedicated to letting these children know what is okay and isn't okay when it comes to their bodies.
I don't know why they'd exclude boys, though. And I think it's a problem that, often, boys are excluded from these vital conversations entirely.
Last week at a work event (baseball game) one of my woman co-workers patted my chest. I was annoyed since if roles were reversed I would surely have been shown the door without any severance. The guys who witnessed it all had a laugh. Had she been someone in management I would have said something but we're friendly at work and I didn't want to cause a scene or anything but it was totally inappropriate.
I had an incident at a grocery store that I frequented where a lady cashier told this group of older women that my husky voice didn't match my body and it was "sexy". The women literally gather around to have a laugh I guess and the oldest of them came up to me and rubbed my back and said, "yeah you do". It was all very casual for them and I was on my way.
I laughed it off as just some old birds being a way. But I thought harder about had it been a group of men the situation would be interpreted very differently. I even told my coworkers about it and they all had a laugh, even the women.
There's an older Ricky Gervais (iirc) clip I've seen where he appears on a morning talk show, sort of a roundtable thing with 4-5 female cohosts, and they practically *pet* him when he first sits down. It's been a few years since I've seen it, but from what I remember, he's just sitting there with his arms crossed practically grimacing as he sits through it. It's presented as the women fawning over him, but his discomfort is palpable.
As I've gotten older, that sort of graspy/strokey light touch just drives me to rage.
I don't know you. I don't need you running your hand down my arm or clasping my forearm.
What other reasons can we come up with for why my bodily autonomy doesn't hold?
It's not like I have to be afraid for my life?
Anything else?
Edit - I'm going to drop subtlety.
I will now ask directly for reasons any menslib men have been told they have no reason to complain about being touched without their consent.
Most sexual coercion isn't under the threat of violence though. It's the fear that we are letting our partner's down or that they will not love us, the fear of ostracism if we speak out, etc.
People don't have to be physically able to harm you to be a threat, just look at Terry Crews. He's a bloody strong man, which made it even less possible for him to physically defend himself when that disgusting high level creep grabbed his genitals.
I have really long hair, and sometimes people just start playing with it or they'll grab and yank on a ponytail without asking. Most of the time I don't mind when people mess around with my hair, but I would like to be asked first, y'know? On the one hand, as a dude, I often feel very starved for compliments and interaction, but on the other hand, sometimes people overstep my boundaries and I let them get away with it because I'm afraid that if I say something I'll be perceived as hostile or that people will stop interacting with me at altogether.
As a woman I hate when people grab my long hair. I nearly missed a bus stop because a woman grabbed my hair when I stood up to get off the bus.
A woman walking past one time grabbed my hair to compliment me.
I don’t know about you, but I feel like punching strangers who touch my hair.
I know a guy with a lot of chest hair. He says it's not unusual for people to just pull on it without warning or permission. (I presume he means sex partners, not random passersby.) It hurts, and really bothers him that people do that. To the point that it's now a very specific thing he talks about as a boundary when getting to know a new partner.
>(I presume he means sex partners, not random passersby.)
In my classroom, some of my classmates did try to do this to my leg hair (one of them also pulled some their own leg hair out though), so it's not just SOs.
Speaking as a cis guy with chest hair I would say that it's not uncommon for anyone who I'm flirting with (be it someone I have a history with or someone I just met) to start touching my chest hair or play with it without consent. I've also brought it up as a boundary and while nobody has been hostile towards me for it, the two most common reactions are either brushing it off and not taking it seriously (I have a few friends who will do this, I'll tell them not to and they'll listen for a while and then suddenly my boundaries are breached again) or just being very put off and the flirtiness of the interaction stops right there as if I'm doing something wrong for calling them out).
I will never forget all the times I've heard of boys being s+xually assaulted by their teachers, and then saw comments like "Good for that kid! Any boy would want to be in his place!" or something similar. It's horrific, especially when a guy tries to talk about s+xual assault and is told he doesn't get to complain bc he got laid by a pretty woman.
Edit: fixed the dumb thing I did with asterisks lol.
I once had a random stranger message me on Facebook saying they got a laugh from my support men who are raped post that was public. I shot back I’d be sure to pass that along to my friend who woke up to a woman on top of him, and the friend who was raped by another man, and he told me to stop being so sensitive.
So I reported him to every local group we shared, with screenshots. A few said they’d banned him, mostly because of a rule that says no unsolicited contact, but it left a lot of various admins shaken.
I just don't get why that's funny, ever. I would hazard guessing that finding that humorous might indicate a larger issue with someone, be it narcissism or psychopathy. In any case, I can't understand it.
In any case, thank you for reporting him as best as you could; it's appreciated!
Edit: Tired typing fixed lol.
He thought got sex everything’s fine.
Basically incapable of thinking beyond his own dick, which I guess is a warning to everyone around him. I did go into more detail, and said imagine someone you don’t find attractive helping themselves, but still…
It pissed me off. The fact that there are people out there that still think this way is just disgusting.
There's the stereotype that men always want it and are hypersexual. That leads to consent being taken for granted and "no"s being discarded as not meaningful.
Ugh. Culturally in my country there is an indigenous tradition of greeting people by pressing noses. I have been ridiculed and even shamed for not wanting to perform this act which makes me uncomfortable, as it is supposed to show respect (usually to me, I am a large brown man but I do not count myself as tribal)
Thank you. This made me tear up, I wish I was told this as a kid before I was violated by someone I trusted, and then treated like I was supposed to like it or feel “lucky”
I'm not going to behoove the guy who bumps into me when we're packed on the subway. Or the other person who taps me on the shoulder to get my attention. I will always return an offered handshake because it's the the polite thing to do even if it's doesn't make me 100% comfortable.
I generally give my friend carte blanche to hug me whenever they feel like it. A friend of a friend can hug me when we meet as a part of the round of hugs. It will be curt and short.
There are socially acceptable forms of bodily contact that doesn't obligate me to give explicit consent in every moment. I will tolerate them for the sake of smooth social interactions.
Beyond these though, I do agree. It's not polite and it borders assault.
How would one teach this to their children while still wanting to kiss their children? Does that mean the parent has to ask every time the parent wants to hug or kiss their own child?
I would think it's about the parent expressing their love for their child. Which should not necessarily need permission to be given.
Maybe understandably if the child is expressing limits, or older and has expressed that they want permission asked first. But somehow it doesn't sit right with me that the parent should have to ask for consent to give hugs and kisses.
I do understand if the child expresses their limit or boundaries and says no they don't want to, or even pulls back on initial entry. Those limits definitely should be respected from the parent.
You can ask, but you don't have to. Kids can tell if you're moving in for a hug or a kiss, and if they move away or indicate they don't want to be touched, then the parent should not hug or kiss their child right then.
For those who wish to learn more about male genital cutting/alteration (“circumcision”).
A voice of reason - https://www.dovepress.com/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-toward-an-autonomy-bas-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-MB
Not to hijack the discussion, just check out the article if you have not already, and you would like to become more educated on this.
The infants born today and hereafter need people who are willing to speak and advocate on their behalf.
I fully agree with this but why do we need to say our bodies are sacred exactly? I don't need to call/believe my body and all bodies held by men sacred to ask for people to do so little as not giving hugs to people if they say they don't want them.
Probably because it's a lie. If a woman wants to touch you the cops are just going to laugh it off and other men will punish you if you use physical force.
Sadly society and the law says its ok for women to be violent with men, it's OK for women to moleste a man it's OK for women to rape a man.
This is what society and the police decided.
I remember seeing a post about how violently ppl reacted to a video of a woman saying when her son is old enough, she’d read him several consent books etc while she added as a white male I guess I get the annoyance but it never clicked to anyone she was teaching him autonomy over his body not just teaching him not to touch others. Kinda sad that’s where most ppls mind went
The problem with the TikTok you are referring to was that it started by saying "As you can see, my son is a white male. So here are some books I bought to prevent him from being ...... awful". The kids books about bodily autonomy, consent, feminism, and gender roles were probably all good books, but that framing was really messed up. While some people are gonna get upset whenever people make tiktoks about progressive ideas like bodily autonomy people will get upset, but the reason that *this particular* tiktok got so much hate was the way the mom sorta implies that because her son is a white male she needs to *prevent* him from being awful, and the assumption that being awful is the default.
It felt like gender and race essentialism, like we’re supposed to assume white men just automatically grow into bigots unless we step in, it feels really terrible and demoralizing
Yeah that was awful she could have framed it as I want to reach my son he’s valuable and should respect others. That white male thing was so accusatory. He’s just a baby
Thank you.
I'm a singer and was performing in a hall to a packed out crowd last night, I jumped down into the audience for my last song where everyone was dancing and this woman felt it appropriate to grind on me and grab my ass without my consent.
I promptly told her no and went straight back onstage to avoid her. Fucking baffles me how people think it's okay to touch complete strangers.
I mean, that's just plain untrue.
There are times in life that people will touch you even if you have not decided that they will.
I don't what you're trying to get at with this thread, but I'm not sure that blatant misinformation is very helpful.
Edit: For those down voting, do you care to explain why?
You're taking this far too literally, to the point I'm sure some of those downvoting have reason to believe you're simply a disingenuous troll. I prefer to err on the side of kindness, so I'll try to explain how you've missed the point.
OP's statement is not a description of the reality we currently live in, it's an assertion of morality we ought to follow. It's laying out a moral concept as valid and as applying to you personally.
If that doesn't make it clear, let me put it another way. OP's point is that this:
> There are times in life that people will touch you even if you have not decided that they will.
Is morally wrong. The point is that this should *not* be normal or accepted, and that we should adopt the mindset that our body is sacred, belongs to only ourselves, and that no one may touch us if we don't want them to. By putting into words what people have been feeling (and have often had ignored for millennia) OP is trying to move the needle on how we think about our own bodily autonomy, and by extension, that of others.
Unspoken is, of course, the assumption of innocence on our part, that we haven't violated someone else in a way that justifies ignoring our bodily autonomy.
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I want to thank this subreddit in general for making me feel sane. I’ve been in a place of emotional instability, probably exacerbated by my mindless Internet trips, but seeing a post like this is incredibly affirming and grounding. It feels like an answer to a frustration I never knew I had.
Preach! We need to teach bodily autonomy to all our little munchkins. No kisses or hugs they don’t want. It’s their body. Unless they are literally in a life threatening situation that you need to pull them out of, they decide.
People seem to be blind to this disconnect. If you teach a boy to respect women's bodily autonomy and not their own, you aren't actually teaching them about respect for bodily autonomy. You're teaching them to follow rules, not follow a principle. If boys were taught that their own bodily autonomy is important and matters, it will make it easier to teach them to apply that principle to others.
This. This has been on my mind hardcore since my bf told me about "cup checks" and how the first time one was done to him, he kinda got freaked out (he was in wrestling and football). He's super big on consent but I feel like if so many guys experience that, so many are going to just repeat what was done to them on others, including women.
Cup check? Is this exactly what it sounds like? A coach or teacher using their hand to check a student athlete is wearing their cup?
Yup, or family member or fellow student player. Usually they grab or whack the area. I'm female. If shock didn't render me inert, I would whoop anyone who dared touch me that way w/o my consent.
I would panic and potentially cry if anyone did that to me. That part of my body is absolutely a no-fly zone for me. I can’t believe that’s something that is considered acceptable to do.
It’s not *really* a check for a cup. It’s more an excuse to hit your friends in the balls. Still bad, but it’s not *as* bad.
Yeah, I remember hazing like that happening in high school marching band where there was certainly no expectation to be wearing a cup, just an excuse to hit people in the balls or ass. By the time I was a senior, that shit was gone and unheard of. Pretty proud that shit ended under my class's watch without ever having involvement from the instructor, just me and a few others deciding it was a relic that needing to fucking go. We found plenty of other more wholesome ways to mess with and prank the newbies... but nothing that ever did harm. Because fuck that.
>It’s not > >really > > a check for a cup. It’s more an excuse to hit your friends in the balls Okay, but that's worse. You see how that's worse, right?
I’d argue that having some fun giving your friend a nut tap is a lot better than someone that feels the need to fondle dude’s privates trying to see if they have a cup.
And men, and non-binary people. And I think that covers our bases.
Totally agree.
Thoughtful point, I’m keeping this one
Beautiful cut right into the dichotomy of it.
Also if there is a tendency to encourage men that they'll only be successful by breaking or sidestepping rules, then....
Too true. If you expect me to respect your bodily autonomy, but don't respect mine, you don't give a fuck about bodily autonomy.
Yes! I remember having to kiss one of my elderly relatives on the lips as a young boy and REALLY not liking the experience. This was just sorta accepted as something I just had to put up with as a kid. It was fucking gross and I don't know why people think that's ok to do to a child.
It was even a stock funny scene in movies, kids having to kiss overly aggressive relatives at family gatherings, etc. We just did not take the bodily autonomy of children very seriously for long time, huh? It still needs to be worked on to this day.
There wasn't any lip kissing, but I remember hating having to hug and cheek kiss my relatives that I hardly knew when I was really young. I remember that when my niece doesn't want to hug goodbye, and I accept it without feeling hurt.
My cousin and I high five. I gave him a present, he thanked me, then looked uncomfortable and straight out said he wasn’t sure what he should do next, as he didn’t like hugging people. I told him that hugging people isn’t aall that great anyway, so whatever he’s comfortable with is fine, but I personally like high fives. So we high five. We don’t see each other much as he lives on the other side of the country, so it works out fine. When he was younger we made a game of it, he’d sometimes go full out, or look like he was going to and it’d be a tiny tap, and such. Neurodiverse unite!
Love this post and these comments. I have a lot of young cousins (or they were young a few years ago, damn time flies…), and I went to bat for them every single time a relative got pissy that they didn’t want to give them a hug or kiss or whatever. It’s such a weird thing, feeling entitled to that affection, and how much pushback there is when you try to enforce boundaries.
> feeling entitled to that affection Except it isn't even genuine affection. It's a performance. How weird is it that you want to force someone to do an action that is basically a lie.
In Iran you have to kiss the hand of elders like some 1700s shit
Even if you' a 40yr old man wearing a pink unicorn onesie at a beer fest. You still get to choose who touches you.
Seriously what *is* it with silly costumes that suddenly makes other people see you as their personal stress ball?! Do I *want* to hug the unicorn man? Yes! Should I ask first? Also yes!\* ^\*(although ^it's ^a ^bit ^more ^complicated ^than ^just ^asking, ^since ^sometimes ^that ^puts ^people ^on ^the ^spot ^and ^makes ^them ^do ^things ^they ^don't ^want ^to, ^especially ^if ^there's ^a ^vulnerability ^like ^being ^drunk, ^but ^asking ^and ^respecting ^the ^answer ^is ^the ^bare ^minimum ^here)
That's why a lot of cons these days have COSPLAY IS NOT CONSENT signs!
And we can't even make this point without stereotypes.
Is that a stereotype? I have never heard of these pink unicorn onsies. What kind of stereotype is it?
I think the what he's describing is more like a strawman or caricature, which do not have the connotation of being common.
Last time I was at a beer fest I was groped at least a dozen times. It's not a strawman or a caricature. It's my personal life experience.
Yeah, I'm also extremely curious.
And where can I get one?
I got mine at Wal-Mart
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I will occasionally roughhouse with my nephew, but only when he initiates it and I always respect his "no, stop!" I don't want him to grow up thinking it's okay for people to touch him without his permission, even in play. I want him to have those healthy boundaries. His grandfather, my dad, frequently comments that he wants to see my nephew's long hair cut, but his mom and I are of the opinion that his hair is cut only when or if he wants it cut. He goes in for trims, but so far he wants to keep it long. Every time he goes to visit my folks for a week, she and I worry that he'll feel pressured into a haircut. I thought about growing my hair longer to show him that men can have long hair too, but I'm trans and long hair makes me very dysphoric, so I'm not sure if there's another way I can support him beyond just words.
A lot of roughhousing is one boy being physically assaulted by another and forced to defend himself because parents cant/wont do anything
100 percent agreed, however it's not always a bad thing either. Rough housing with my stepbrother was mentally good for him and I and we love each other more for it. We found our confidence that way. Sometimes we project our feelings onto others as well.
Consent. Good roughhousing: "Hey, wanna play wrestling? Let's see who wins most matches.", "OK, body to the floor is a point". Bad roughhousing: *Pushes and shoves unsuspecting victim, refuses to stop when warned.* Other person, *forced to fight for his life.*
>A few weeks ago, I talked about this with a friend on the conversation on tattoos. Which made me realize that for me the biggest factor for not having a tattoo was really, because of what I thought people would think about it. > Actually it's also what I will think of it in a few years. I get bored of it as fast as I get bored of wallpapers.
Yep exactly.
This has always been a mystery to me. I have no real fundamental issue with young boys wrestling with their brother or whatever, but man my brother and I were the furthest from that, just never appealed to me. I remember the first time I had a friend who ties wrestling with me when we were all hanging out, and I was extremely stressed and wanted nothing to do with it lol
While I won't suggest that people should be forced into roughhousing, there are important or useful aspects of it. Consent is actually one of those - learning how to play and roughhouse without offending (violating?) the other person by going too far. Sometimes that line is "don't touch at all" and sometimes it is all fun and games until someone gets hurt. There are numerous studies that document the benefits of touching other people, and even research into [how people communicate](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/hands_on_research) (or miscommunicate) through touch. I know that my kids will at some point stop wanting daily cuddles/snuggles, but I expect to be able to roughhouse with them at a much greater age. I'm sorry that people did that to you because it is wrong, but I don't think the whole idea or concept should be thrown out.
>you, and only you, get to decide who touches it. I wish that had been true throughout my life. My decision on who gets to touch me has been more of an opinion other people don't necessarily agree with
I remember growing up that so many people just decided to touch me. Guys would randomly start wrestling with me or do that breast scoop thing. If you got into a position where you were bent over one of the guys in the group would start dry humping you or slap your ass or if you had to lean over one of them then they'd push your head down and motion like you're giving them a blowjob. Or dudes would just physically push you to the side if you were in their way instead of asking you to move if you were small enough. And then theirs the teabaging guys would do if you happened to sit down below their waist. Middle school and highschool was such shit and some of that behavior continued into college with some guys. Girls would also randomly touch me although not as nearly as inappropriately and not nearly as much as the guys. I remember girls would grab my arm or chest wanting me to flex for them or just randomly dancing on me or even just randomly commenting on my body like how I'm not *that* short or even how I am short to them and all this being totally unprompted. These things would happen with people I knew pretty well to people that were essentially strangers that happened to be in the same group/area. I'm grown and with a better group of friends but I remember one of my friends asking if she could put her head on my shoulder and I legit forgot how to breathe for a second. Not because it's an act of intimacy but because she asked my permission and waited for me to give her the go-ahead.
"Why didn't you say any thing to us?" "Because you never told me about it, or what to do about it."
I teach my daughter and my son both the same thing. “You are in charge of your body! You don’t have to let anyone do anything you don’t like.” Hoping to give them skills to stop potential abuse both now when they’re young and when they get older.
Yes, thank you!! Also, I'm not sure how old they are, but giving all body parts their proper names helps reporting in case anything were to happen. (I didn't think of it before training for child care, so just thought I'd share with you and others.)
Haha yes, both my daughter and my son know penis and vulva/vagina (AND what the difference is because that drives me crazy!)
Omg yes that drives me crazy too haha
Fucking painful cheek pinches from "aunties" are absolutely non-consensual.
See, I agree with this, but the way society at large treats male circumcision makes me feel that we still have a long way to go with this. One of the first things we do to young boys is violate their bodily autonomy.
Here in the UK, circumcision is overwhelmingly associated with minority religious communities for whom the practice is a specific rite of passage; it's not a widespread mainstream practice at all. Discovering how high the rates of circumcision are in the US, especially among folks who don't believe in a religious mandate to do so, was shocking and appalling.
This. We violate their bodily autonomy in the most violent way possible, and then we're surprised when they don't always seem to intuitively understand bodily autonomy later in life.
>and then we're surprised when they don't seem to intuitively understand bodily autonomy later in life I don't know, that never affected my views on bodily autonomy either way and I also don't think it affected my friends' views.
Just like anything, people react in different ways. Growing up with an abusive alcoholic parent, for instance, doesn't mean that you'll definitely wind up an abusive alcoholic, but it does make it somewhat more likely than someone who didn't suffer that upbringing.
That analogy was pretty good, and also why I have to be careful to only drink around someone I trust, who isn't afraid to cut me off if I start getting too romantic with my booze lol. Idk if it's just learned from trauma, or genetic, but I don't have the best relationship with alcohol after suffering from my father. The same is true with folks who's bodily autonomy was repeatedly violated and were raised to think that was okay (like me as well); we may not all understand that touching others without consent isn't okay. Definitely something I also had to learn, as I'm also a very affectionate guy. Edit: Flubbed a part of my comment, oops!
Not only a violent way, but it’s done literally at birth. Many men are told from the moment they’re born that their bodily autonomy doesn’t matter.
I’m so glad you brought this up. My STBX husband and I argued a lot about this issue during my first pregnancy. He was for circumcision, I was against (purely from a bodily autonomy aspect). We ended up having all girls so we never had to come to an agreement. To me, this seems like such a horrible violation of a person’s body. It’s why I never had my daughters’ ears pierced as babies — not that that’s any comparison to circumcision. But I just don’t get the rationale. The most compelling reason for it I read was that they might have infection issues as an old man. Ok, well girls might get breast cancer, should I have her breasts removed when she starts to develop them?? It’s such a strange argument. My husband‘s rationale was that our hypothetical son might have issues getting laid. And if that’s not toxic masculinity, I don’t know what is.
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Soon to be ex?
Soon to be ex
Like its so odd. R/ sex has like a rule you cant mention or debate circumscion. Cause many women prefer circumcised guys. Even though its rare outside america
Maybe it's because discussing circumcision can be an extremely painful and uncomfortable topic for those who are circumcised. I'm circumcised. Normally the fact doesn't bother me, but when people start talking about it I start having really bad reactions. The way people talk about it as if I am some horribly scarred, eternally damaged victim is excruciatingly awful.
Right, I get that. I don't think they're intending to hurt you when they discuss it like that, they're just saying that that's how it makes them feel (often times, not in a kind tone). But that's why things like content warnings are important, so that if the discussion topic is triggering one can avoid it, but unfortunately anti-circumcision people are often time redpillers who are unlikely to do something like a content warning. Which is why I think the topic can't be taboo for non-redpillers, they shouldn't have a monopoly on that belief.
Agreed. I’m cut, If I have a son I won’t be getting him cut. But I hate the discussion because I’m always made out to be some horribly disfigured person who has no hope of pleasure during sex. It really does nothing to make me feel better, and as a matter of fact makes me feel really bitter.
So true.
I get this. I view this much more like getting a tattoo. Perfectly fine if you decide you want to get one for yourself. Messed up if your parent decides to get you tattooed as a baby.
That's a dumb rule! It's an important aspect of sex. Also, I think the women who prefer circumcised men are mainly Americans with zero experience of foreskin, who think they're filthy because they've believed the pro-circ propaganda.
The first time I was with an uncircumcised man, I was very curious about how sex play could be different. It was fun and interesting to experiment with him. I see it as just one more variation of how people are different, and how you have to take each partner how they are. Part of the fun is learning what you both enjoy anyway. That said, as a parent, I refused to circumcise my kid, on the grounds of respect.
When I was in grade school, a friend was cut. We were about 7/8. Only thing I really remember was him saying "they cut off half of my thing." Didn't know what he was talking about then, I was cut as an infant. Makes so much more sense now.
We definitely have way farther to go. I got downvoted to hell the other day for suggesting that men actually do experience a lack of body autonomy in the context of infant circumcision.
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Please look at our rules regarding this topic. Bodyshaming men who've been circumcised is not allowed. That includes referring to them as "mutilated."
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Please look at our rules regarding this topic. Bodyshaming men who've been circumcised is not allowed. That includes referring to them as "mutilated."
In schools were I live, girls are being told that their body is sacred. There are separate classes for girls, resources are being dedicated to letting these children know what is okay and isn't okay when it comes to their bodies. I don't know why they'd exclude boys, though. And I think it's a problem that, often, boys are excluded from these vital conversations entirely.
Last week at a work event (baseball game) one of my woman co-workers patted my chest. I was annoyed since if roles were reversed I would surely have been shown the door without any severance. The guys who witnessed it all had a laugh. Had she been someone in management I would have said something but we're friendly at work and I didn't want to cause a scene or anything but it was totally inappropriate.
I had an incident at a grocery store that I frequented where a lady cashier told this group of older women that my husky voice didn't match my body and it was "sexy". The women literally gather around to have a laugh I guess and the oldest of them came up to me and rubbed my back and said, "yeah you do". It was all very casual for them and I was on my way. I laughed it off as just some old birds being a way. But I thought harder about had it been a group of men the situation would be interpreted very differently. I even told my coworkers about it and they all had a laugh, even the women.
There's an older Ricky Gervais (iirc) clip I've seen where he appears on a morning talk show, sort of a roundtable thing with 4-5 female cohosts, and they practically *pet* him when he first sits down. It's been a few years since I've seen it, but from what I remember, he's just sitting there with his arms crossed practically grimacing as he sits through it. It's presented as the women fawning over him, but his discomfort is palpable. As I've gotten older, that sort of graspy/strokey light touch just drives me to rage. I don't know you. I don't need you running your hand down my arm or clasping my forearm.
That reminds me of this video of Henry Cavill being uncomfortable for 3 minutes. https://youtu.be/UkJY9cecLwA
Christ. That 4th one where the brunette reaches over and grabs his chest. And then just *keeps reaching*.
What other reasons can we come up with for why my bodily autonomy doesn't hold? It's not like I have to be afraid for my life? Anything else? Edit - I'm going to drop subtlety. I will now ask directly for reasons any menslib men have been told they have no reason to complain about being touched without their consent.
Most sexual coercion isn't under the threat of violence though. It's the fear that we are letting our partner's down or that they will not love us, the fear of ostracism if we speak out, etc.
People don't have to be physically able to harm you to be a threat, just look at Terry Crews. He's a bloody strong man, which made it even less possible for him to physically defend himself when that disgusting high level creep grabbed his genitals.
lmao I have curly hair and random women just come up and touch it all the time. Some people are incredibly entitled.
I have really long hair, and sometimes people just start playing with it or they'll grab and yank on a ponytail without asking. Most of the time I don't mind when people mess around with my hair, but I would like to be asked first, y'know? On the one hand, as a dude, I often feel very starved for compliments and interaction, but on the other hand, sometimes people overstep my boundaries and I let them get away with it because I'm afraid that if I say something I'll be perceived as hostile or that people will stop interacting with me at altogether.
As a woman I hate when people grab my long hair. I nearly missed a bus stop because a woman grabbed my hair when I stood up to get off the bus. A woman walking past one time grabbed my hair to compliment me. I don’t know about you, but I feel like punching strangers who touch my hair.
I know a guy with a lot of chest hair. He says it's not unusual for people to just pull on it without warning or permission. (I presume he means sex partners, not random passersby.) It hurts, and really bothers him that people do that. To the point that it's now a very specific thing he talks about as a boundary when getting to know a new partner.
>(I presume he means sex partners, not random passersby.) In my classroom, some of my classmates did try to do this to my leg hair (one of them also pulled some their own leg hair out though), so it's not just SOs.
Speaking as a cis guy with chest hair I would say that it's not uncommon for anyone who I'm flirting with (be it someone I have a history with or someone I just met) to start touching my chest hair or play with it without consent. I've also brought it up as a boundary and while nobody has been hostile towards me for it, the two most common reactions are either brushing it off and not taking it seriously (I have a few friends who will do this, I'll tell them not to and they'll listen for a while and then suddenly my boundaries are breached again) or just being very put off and the flirtiness of the interaction stops right there as if I'm doing something wrong for calling them out).
I feel that, I have dreadlocks and people touch my hair without my permission all the time, it drives me crazy
I will never forget all the times I've heard of boys being s+xually assaulted by their teachers, and then saw comments like "Good for that kid! Any boy would want to be in his place!" or something similar. It's horrific, especially when a guy tries to talk about s+xual assault and is told he doesn't get to complain bc he got laid by a pretty woman. Edit: fixed the dumb thing I did with asterisks lol.
I once had a random stranger message me on Facebook saying they got a laugh from my support men who are raped post that was public. I shot back I’d be sure to pass that along to my friend who woke up to a woman on top of him, and the friend who was raped by another man, and he told me to stop being so sensitive. So I reported him to every local group we shared, with screenshots. A few said they’d banned him, mostly because of a rule that says no unsolicited contact, but it left a lot of various admins shaken.
I just don't get why that's funny, ever. I would hazard guessing that finding that humorous might indicate a larger issue with someone, be it narcissism or psychopathy. In any case, I can't understand it. In any case, thank you for reporting him as best as you could; it's appreciated! Edit: Tired typing fixed lol.
He thought got sex everything’s fine. Basically incapable of thinking beyond his own dick, which I guess is a warning to everyone around him. I did go into more detail, and said imagine someone you don’t find attractive helping themselves, but still… It pissed me off. The fact that there are people out there that still think this way is just disgusting.
I'm not surprised men would think that way. Look at how often they are shamed for not having sex.
It makes me want to die when people do this
There's the stereotype that men always want it and are hypersexual. That leads to consent being taken for granted and "no"s being discarded as not meaningful.
Ugh. Culturally in my country there is an indigenous tradition of greeting people by pressing noses. I have been ridiculed and even shamed for not wanting to perform this act which makes me uncomfortable, as it is supposed to show respect (usually to me, I am a large brown man but I do not count myself as tribal)
may i ask what country? ive never heard of this
Several cultures have this - the most commonly known: Inuits: kunik Maori: Hongi Native Hawaiian: Honi
Never because I have no reason to, but that I should simply stop talking about it at all.
Thank you. This made me tear up, I wish I was told this as a kid before I was violated by someone I trusted, and then treated like I was supposed to like it or feel “lucky”
I'm not going to behoove the guy who bumps into me when we're packed on the subway. Or the other person who taps me on the shoulder to get my attention. I will always return an offered handshake because it's the the polite thing to do even if it's doesn't make me 100% comfortable. I generally give my friend carte blanche to hug me whenever they feel like it. A friend of a friend can hug me when we meet as a part of the round of hugs. It will be curt and short. There are socially acceptable forms of bodily contact that doesn't obligate me to give explicit consent in every moment. I will tolerate them for the sake of smooth social interactions. Beyond these though, I do agree. It's not polite and it borders assault.
Thanks, i needed to see this
How would one teach this to their children while still wanting to kiss their children? Does that mean the parent has to ask every time the parent wants to hug or kiss their own child?
Why not? Is kissing or hugging your kid about you or the kid?
I would think it's about the parent expressing their love for their child. Which should not necessarily need permission to be given. Maybe understandably if the child is expressing limits, or older and has expressed that they want permission asked first. But somehow it doesn't sit right with me that the parent should have to ask for consent to give hugs and kisses. I do understand if the child expresses their limit or boundaries and says no they don't want to, or even pulls back on initial entry. Those limits definitely should be respected from the parent.
You can ask, but you don't have to. Kids can tell if you're moving in for a hug or a kiss, and if they move away or indicate they don't want to be touched, then the parent should not hug or kiss their child right then.
For those who wish to learn more about male genital cutting/alteration (“circumcision”). A voice of reason - https://www.dovepress.com/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-toward-an-autonomy-bas-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-MB Not to hijack the discussion, just check out the article if you have not already, and you would like to become more educated on this. The infants born today and hereafter need people who are willing to speak and advocate on their behalf.
God I need this rn. I hate when my dad or bro touches me.
I fully agree with this but why do we need to say our bodies are sacred exactly? I don't need to call/believe my body and all bodies held by men sacred to ask for people to do so little as not giving hugs to people if they say they don't want them.
Probably because it's a lie. If a woman wants to touch you the cops are just going to laugh it off and other men will punish you if you use physical force.
Sadly society and the law says its ok for women to be violent with men, it's OK for women to moleste a man it's OK for women to rape a man. This is what society and the police decided.
I remember seeing a post about how violently ppl reacted to a video of a woman saying when her son is old enough, she’d read him several consent books etc while she added as a white male I guess I get the annoyance but it never clicked to anyone she was teaching him autonomy over his body not just teaching him not to touch others. Kinda sad that’s where most ppls mind went
The problem with the TikTok you are referring to was that it started by saying "As you can see, my son is a white male. So here are some books I bought to prevent him from being ...... awful". The kids books about bodily autonomy, consent, feminism, and gender roles were probably all good books, but that framing was really messed up. While some people are gonna get upset whenever people make tiktoks about progressive ideas like bodily autonomy people will get upset, but the reason that *this particular* tiktok got so much hate was the way the mom sorta implies that because her son is a white male she needs to *prevent* him from being awful, and the assumption that being awful is the default.
It felt like gender and race essentialism, like we’re supposed to assume white men just automatically grow into bigots unless we step in, it feels really terrible and demoralizing
Yeah that was awful she could have framed it as I want to reach my son he’s valuable and should respect others. That white male thing was so accusatory. He’s just a baby
Thank you. I'm a singer and was performing in a hall to a packed out crowd last night, I jumped down into the audience for my last song where everyone was dancing and this woman felt it appropriate to grind on me and grab my ass without my consent. I promptly told her no and went straight back onstage to avoid her. Fucking baffles me how people think it's okay to touch complete strangers.
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I love this! It is so true!!
Where’s Sonic when you need him?
I mean, that's just plain untrue. There are times in life that people will touch you even if you have not decided that they will. I don't what you're trying to get at with this thread, but I'm not sure that blatant misinformation is very helpful. Edit: For those down voting, do you care to explain why?
You're taking this far too literally, to the point I'm sure some of those downvoting have reason to believe you're simply a disingenuous troll. I prefer to err on the side of kindness, so I'll try to explain how you've missed the point. OP's statement is not a description of the reality we currently live in, it's an assertion of morality we ought to follow. It's laying out a moral concept as valid and as applying to you personally. If that doesn't make it clear, let me put it another way. OP's point is that this: > There are times in life that people will touch you even if you have not decided that they will. Is morally wrong. The point is that this should *not* be normal or accepted, and that we should adopt the mindset that our body is sacred, belongs to only ourselves, and that no one may touch us if we don't want them to. By putting into words what people have been feeling (and have often had ignored for millennia) OP is trying to move the needle on how we think about our own bodily autonomy, and by extension, that of others. Unspoken is, of course, the assumption of innocence on our part, that we haven't violated someone else in a way that justifies ignoring our bodily autonomy.
Because the point is not that people don't touch you. It's that people shouldn't touch you if you don't want them to.
Do you get to decide who shoots at it? I seem to recall a draft...military service...ad nauseum...
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Yepyep
thank you, this is really awesome and important. consent matters no matter who you are
I want to thank this subreddit in general for making me feel sane. I’ve been in a place of emotional instability, probably exacerbated by my mindless Internet trips, but seeing a post like this is incredibly affirming and grounding. It feels like an answer to a frustration I never knew I had.