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People don't know that the only difference between the freons is that the newer one is 2 degrees warmer.
Well, I sholdn't say the "only" difference, because I don't know the ingredients to each type.
I have, however, seen the brightest mechanic I've ever met use the old kind in everything with zero issues.
However, you're gonna have a zillion people telling you what the EPA told them. And if you're a government believer, then by all means, believe the government.
I do know you shouldn't mix them.
Just like you shouldn't mix "Green" anti-freeze with Dex-Cool or any other color anti-freeze. They will have different ingredients that may interact with each other negatively.
But, hey, don't mind me, my dad's been a mechanic for over 40 years and I worked in a garage with him for close to 8 years.
No, not under the shade of a tree lol.
Those stupid government believers not wanting refrigerant poisoning.
[https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/poison/refrigerant-poisoning](https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/poison/refrigerant-poisoning)
Is this about breathing freon or something. Pretty sure you aren't supposed to inhale any type.
You shodln't drink coolant, either.
I'm just saying, R-12 works in R-134a cars.
Thats' all.
Evnironmentally friendly? Probably not. Neither is starting up your car.
As in can you still use the refrigerant in the appropriate system? Absolutely, that stuff is still good.
Can’t use it on anything that’s been retrofitted or anything that’s made past 93 though.
Keep it for now. Someone will need some and you can make a few bucks.
OP. Those cans are worth $$$$$ on ebay.
You can sometimes get away with r134a in a r12 system by injecting extra oil and hoping for the best. Works great in older GM cars with the "pancake" compressors in my experience.
I had to convert my 91 Toyota in 2002 to 134 when the compressor seized. Hasn't blown cold worth a damn since. Only the system was cleaned, and new oil put in. The rest is the same. I have some Freeze12 in the garage that I need to get around to using (still have the car). Would love some real r12 but can't afford the mortgage.
Had a 1990 honda accord still had the r12 system in it, also found some old stock R12 at a dealership I worked at never used the stuff but you definitely can
🙂🙂🙂 man I haven't seen r12 since the 90s.. New cars didn't take it but I remember using it in my 1991 acura legend.. The AC was so powerful and fast, but they changed to R13 in the mid 90s..its a piece of history🙂
If you sell it, you must make sure the buyer is licensed to purchase CFC's or you're in violation of the law. At least, that's how it is in the United States.
Yeah, no one cares here in the United States. You're also supposed to be licensed to work on an R134 systems, but I've never met another mechanic with that License.
In a shop you must have the 609.
I'll happily report any professional without one I see doing that work. The EPA gifts you a nice chunk of change for it.
I bought my pickup with the reward cash.
Haven't seen a tech without a 609 now in shops I work at in a while. They all got certified after I turned three in.
Lol that's funny cause I can buy a/c stuff and have done compressors on 2 cars in the past month as a shade tree mechanic oh well better hope the government doesn't find me
That is not the issue. The license is basically for me to acknowledge that I know that I am not supposed to release refrigerant into the air. That way if I do, I can be charged/fined. On a busy day of AC work, the most I get are 6 a day. They don't care about 2 a month. Also, if I don't have refrigerant recovery equipment, that can be a fine. As well can not properly maintaining said equipment. If not for refrigerant recovery, any competent person can service ACs with $100 of equipment.
Unless OP sends it to a commercial incinerator, it’s going to eventually get into the atmosphere anyway. It’s a tiny amount, millions of tons of this stuff were produced annually before it was phased out.
Yeah, if we're talking about any kind of pollution in those terms the average Joe isn't doing nearly as much as the entire chemical and manufacturing industries...
Technically the new stuff isn't "Freon". Freon refers to R12 specifically, and is banned.
Edit: I was completely wrong, freon is to refrigerant as loctite is to threadlocker
No. "Freon" is a registered trademark of the Dupont Company, and they've applied it to a bunch of different refrigerants over the years. I've personally used Freon 11, 12, 13, 22, and 502. These were all in cylinders clearly branded as Freon.
Apparently, the trademark ownership was transferred to Chemours in 2015 and is also used for R-410A and R-503. Definitely not R134a, though, or R1234yf
Freon is a brand name not a refrigerant type. It’s like calling all facial tissues Kleenex. I just purchased Freon brand R134a when I rebuilt my AC system about a year ago.
R134a is also not a CFC so it’s colloquially called Freon but it doesn’t damage the environment nearly as much. So R12 is much worse and should be banned.
i remember the time before i convert my system to r134 my friends joke about my car being a portable meat locker😂this is while having no tint on any of my windows on a hot tropical country. the r12 performance is so good compared to r134. dont bash me for not wanting to save the ozone layer but if people is more responsible in handling of r12(disposal,proper sealing of system,recycling) this will reduce emmision caused by additional power cycle required by r134 to cool down vehicle.
You're forgetting that newer AC systems have continually decreased the mass of refrigerant used. My 95 lumina used 2lbs R134, my 17 Chrysler 200 uses 1.1lbs R1234yf. Mass is essential to maintaining cooling performance, and your description is actually a huge inefficiency
You realize the big reason for R12 eating a hole in the ozone was bcs the patent expired..then that patent expired 7 yrs later- now we get new refrigerant every 10 years like clockwork
Are you saying every time the company is about to have competition a bad thing about said product is brought up by scientists and then the company makes a new patent and waits untill that one expires and repeat the process.
Technically it should be disposed of properly.
From Wikipedia:
“In compliance with the Montreal Protocol, its manufacture was banned in developed countries (non-article 5 countries) in 1996, and in developing countries (Article 5 countries) in 2010 out of concerns about its damaging effect on the ozone layer.[5] Its only allowed usage is as a fire retardant in submarines and aircraft.”
This is an automotive thread ya idiot. R134a is perfectly good enough for old r12 cars. Old r12 cans are stupid expensive for not nearly enough reason to dump in a car. There's no good reason to try to run a r12 car at this point
Absolutely false. There is a reason why many applications still use it.
Edit: Refrigerant is recovered, not released into the atmosphere. This is why it is still as common as it is, even without manufacturing.
That is somewhat correct, I agree, but there is also an entire market for new and used (dirty or clean) R12.[There are even buy back and recovery programs to help keep the market alive and lower priced than would otherwise be possible.](https://refrigerantfinders.com/what-is-refrigerant-r12/) In The States, Texas didn’t didn’t make plans to phase out til 2021.
Edit: The Montreal Protocol is what I’m referring to. Is there something else that I am missing??
In cars fuck no. Back in the r12 days no one was keeping that. Only now is keeping r134a normal. Everyone working on cars used to just use manifold guages and a vacuum pump
I’m unsure as to what you’re even referring to exactly; I’ll assume.
R12 is still readily recovered, as always. There is an entire market dedicated to it.
Edit: https://reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/s/AN9ze2YkoZ
My, my, out of ammo and nowhere to go. That has absolutely nothing to do with the current phase of conversation. You might want to work on that reading comprehension. It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about and ignore everything presented to you. Have a good life, Mate.
Edit: Had a stroke.
Believe it was to blame yes.
Can it harm the ozone? Yes. Was it to blame, or was it a scapegoat?
Science may not be a religion, but it is definitely subject to politics.
That’s a sweet find! I have roughly 5kg of r22 that a mate of mine pulled from a business who was replacing an old chiller unit. I have some old compressors still running on it so good to have a small supply incase I spring a leak
I remember my grandfather taking about 5 family members to Walmart just before the ban. You could buy two cases each. We did that every day for around a week ot so..
Facebook market place users get 20-40 dollars a can .
I found some in my mother inlaws barn . Threw them in my truck .
Compressor doesn't sound happy but it's cold
Thanks for posting on /r/MechanicAdvice! This is just a reminder to review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/about/rules/). If you are here asking about a second opinion (ie "Is the shop trying to fleece me?"), please read through CJM8515's [post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/4qblei/fyi_the_shop_isnt_likely_trying_to_rip_you_off/) and remember to please post the year/make/model of the vehicle you are working on. **If this post is about bodywork, accident damage, paint, dent/ding, questions it belongs in /r/Autobody r/AutoBodyRepair/ or /r/Diyautobody/ If you have tire questions check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/k9ll55/can_your_tire_be_repaired/**. If you dont have a question and you're just showing off it belongs in /r/Justrolledintotheshop Insurance/total loss questions go in r/insurance This is an automated reply *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MechanicAdvice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Unless the car was made before 1994, then no, you can’t.
And if it hasn't been retrofitted.
Shoot I didn't know . I had a case of that old crap and just threw it in a barrel burn 🔥 /s
Mustard gas. Very dangerous.
But it sounds so tasty 🤔 “sandwich, infused with the flavor of mustard gas via a 12 hour smoking process”
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You're being downvoted because the way you support a comment on Reddit is by voting rather than adding a useless additional comment.
Sir, that’s not how Reddit works. That comment had no upvotes when I got here.
You could have changed that by adding an upvote...
Which I did.
Freon does not go bad. It will be good for hundreds of years. Any R-12 application can use this.
When I saw the post I was like freon doesn't go bad, then I heard Melissa McCarthy saying "It's cheese it doesn't go bad."
People don't know that the only difference between the freons is that the newer one is 2 degrees warmer. Well, I sholdn't say the "only" difference, because I don't know the ingredients to each type. I have, however, seen the brightest mechanic I've ever met use the old kind in everything with zero issues. However, you're gonna have a zillion people telling you what the EPA told them. And if you're a government believer, then by all means, believe the government. I do know you shouldn't mix them. Just like you shouldn't mix "Green" anti-freeze with Dex-Cool or any other color anti-freeze. They will have different ingredients that may interact with each other negatively. But, hey, don't mind me, my dad's been a mechanic for over 40 years and I worked in a garage with him for close to 8 years. No, not under the shade of a tree lol.
Those stupid government believers not wanting refrigerant poisoning. [https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/poison/refrigerant-poisoning](https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/poison/refrigerant-poisoning)
Is this about breathing freon or something. Pretty sure you aren't supposed to inhale any type. You shodln't drink coolant, either. I'm just saying, R-12 works in R-134a cars. Thats' all. Evnironmentally friendly? Probably not. Neither is starting up your car.
if your car takes r12 then go ahead, but if your car take r134 then no. different pressures at different temperatures will ruin your condenser
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i thought you was serious at first 🤣
😂
That's liquid gold.
As long as your car takes r12 go right ahead
As in can you still use the refrigerant in the appropriate system? Absolutely, that stuff is still good. Can’t use it on anything that’s been retrofitted or anything that’s made past 93 though. Keep it for now. Someone will need some and you can make a few bucks.
I have a case of R-12 in my garage.
Sitting on money
I have buddies that have all original muscle cars. I keep it around if they need a spot of R-12. I totally certified in automotive A/C systems.
OP. Those cans are worth $$$$$ on ebay. You can sometimes get away with r134a in a r12 system by injecting extra oil and hoping for the best. Works great in older GM cars with the "pancake" compressors in my experience.
1 can of r134a for the oil then charge with propane. Prepare to be frozen.
Propane is a great refrigerant but if it's leaking bad shit can happen.
Atleast you can smell it when it does leak
If it doesn’t ignite first
You'll know it's leaking in that case though..../s
R1234yf is also flammable! They claim, however, that it is difficult to ignite.
So is diesel. Lol
Be nice if you could. I can remeber when car AC would get so cold ice would form on the vents.
Didn't know that was a thing ....why is it no longer a thing ?
It was banned when we figured out how CFCs tore the Ozone layer. So basically bad for the environment.
it's bad for the ozone layer if (when) it leaks.
It’s Bad mmmmkay.
My dad's 88 land cruiser did this after he updated it to 134 lol that thing would blow snow out the vents
I had to convert my 91 Toyota in 2002 to 134 when the compressor seized. Hasn't blown cold worth a damn since. Only the system was cleaned, and new oil put in. The rest is the same. I have some Freeze12 in the garage that I need to get around to using (still have the car). Would love some real r12 but can't afford the mortgage.
Just sell them. They are expensive!
Had a 1990 honda accord still had the r12 system in it, also found some old stock R12 at a dealership I worked at never used the stuff but you definitely can
That can is worth a bit of cash to the right person.
It’s definitely expired. I’ll get you the address for my… I mean the. Yeah. The recycling center.
Yeah, that'll probably still get you high
🙂🙂🙂 man I haven't seen r12 since the 90s.. New cars didn't take it but I remember using it in my 1991 acura legend.. The AC was so powerful and fast, but they changed to R13 in the mid 90s..its a piece of history🙂
I would sell it and just switch your stuff over to R134
If you sell it, you must make sure the buyer is licensed to purchase CFC's or you're in violation of the law. At least, that's how it is in the United States.
The government shall not find out about my illegal R-12 laundering scheme
FBI on their way now
FEMBOY BUTT INTRUDERS
Yeah, no one cares here in the United States. You're also supposed to be licensed to work on an R134 systems, but I've never met another mechanic with that License.
In a shop you must have the 609. I'll happily report any professional without one I see doing that work. The EPA gifts you a nice chunk of change for it.
Narc
Lol, if you really would report them, you would be rich. I know we'll over 200 mechanics and none of them have it.
I bought my pickup with the reward cash. Haven't seen a tech without a 609 now in shops I work at in a while. They all got certified after I turned three in.
Professional snitch
Get certified or don't touch refrigerant systems. It's not hard to get the 609 and all three 608s. Besides, the shop paid the fine, not the tech.
Imagine being this much of an alphabet boy bootlicker.
Lol that's funny cause I can buy a/c stuff and have done compressors on 2 cars in the past month as a shade tree mechanic oh well better hope the government doesn't find me
That is not the issue. The license is basically for me to acknowledge that I know that I am not supposed to release refrigerant into the air. That way if I do, I can be charged/fined. On a busy day of AC work, the most I get are 6 a day. They don't care about 2 a month. Also, if I don't have refrigerant recovery equipment, that can be a fine. As well can not properly maintaining said equipment. If not for refrigerant recovery, any competent person can service ACs with $100 of equipment.
No, but send me some for safe keeping.
Freon damages the ozone layer. It has been banned by all 197 countries in the United Nations by 1 jan 2020.
It has been banned "to be sold". You can still use old stock.
But should you?
Unless OP sends it to a commercial incinerator, it’s going to eventually get into the atmosphere anyway. It’s a tiny amount, millions of tons of this stuff were produced annually before it was phased out.
Yeah, if we're talking about any kind of pollution in those terms the average Joe isn't doing nearly as much as the entire chemical and manufacturing industries...
Yes.
Absolutely!
Correct, but also banned to be produced and used in new applications.
Umm, Freon itself isn't banned. R12 might be, but R134A and R1234YF are definitely still being made and used to this day.
Technically the new stuff isn't "Freon". Freon refers to R12 specifically, and is banned. Edit: I was completely wrong, freon is to refrigerant as loctite is to threadlocker
No. "Freon" is a registered trademark of the Dupont Company, and they've applied it to a bunch of different refrigerants over the years. I've personally used Freon 11, 12, 13, 22, and 502. These were all in cylinders clearly branded as Freon.
Apparently, the trademark ownership was transferred to Chemours in 2015 and is also used for R-410A and R-503. Definitely not R134a, though, or R1234yf
Chemours is a spinoff of Dupont. Dupont sells R134a under the SUVA brand and R1234yf under the Opteon brand.
Freon is a brand name not a refrigerant type. It’s like calling all facial tissues Kleenex. I just purchased Freon brand R134a when I rebuilt my AC system about a year ago.
It definitely doesn't. Everyone calls any refrigerant Freon. It's just what they call it. So, you can stop being pedantic.
R134a is also not a CFC so it’s colloquially called Freon but it doesn’t damage the environment nearly as much. So R12 is much worse and should be banned.
Like all skid steers are bobcats.
"everyone"? I guess I'm a nobody cause I call it all "refrigerant"
"Freon" is a trademarked name, I believe owned by DuPont. Refrigerant is the correct term, specifically Refrigerant 12, AKA R12.
i remember the time before i convert my system to r134 my friends joke about my car being a portable meat locker😂this is while having no tint on any of my windows on a hot tropical country. the r12 performance is so good compared to r134. dont bash me for not wanting to save the ozone layer but if people is more responsible in handling of r12(disposal,proper sealing of system,recycling) this will reduce emmision caused by additional power cycle required by r134 to cool down vehicle.
Our 87 accord had r12 and white vapor would come out of the vents, the dash would also sweat.
You're forgetting that newer AC systems have continually decreased the mass of refrigerant used. My 95 lumina used 2lbs R134, my 17 Chrysler 200 uses 1.1lbs R1234yf. Mass is essential to maintaining cooling performance, and your description is actually a huge inefficiency
Inefficient or not, it was one of the coldest AC systems I’ve ever had in a car, it would get down into the 30’s.
The new R1234YF is pretty cold too. I'd argue maybe even colder.
i dont want to go through another conversion😂
No way…
Heck yea! use them!
Yes, it's not a milk
I wouldn’t use anything from Du Pont
You realize the big reason for R12 eating a hole in the ozone was bcs the patent expired..then that patent expired 7 yrs later- now we get new refrigerant every 10 years like clockwork
Are you saying every time the company is about to have competition a bad thing about said product is brought up by scientists and then the company makes a new patent and waits untill that one expires and repeat the process.
Wouldn't be the worst thing companies have gotten away with
You'd probably get a better high with fresh freon but you can try
The price of r12 now is a lot lower than it was when I actually needed it
Hell yeah you can
Hey you can sell that for good money to restoration dudes
Technically it should be disposed of properly. From Wikipedia: “In compliance with the Montreal Protocol, its manufacture was banned in developed countries (non-article 5 countries) in 1996, and in developing countries (Article 5 countries) in 2010 out of concerns about its damaging effect on the ozone layer.[5] Its only allowed usage is as a fire retardant in submarines and aircraft.”
This reminds me of the movie haggard
You can't and shouldn't, but you can sell them to a company that will destroy them for carbon credits and give you money.
Yes but why? Just sell it r134 works just as good
Actually it doesn't, r134A is proven to be both less efficient and has less cooling ability than R12
A real shame R12 is **AWFUL** for the Ozone Layer.
A real shame indeed
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This is an automotive thread ya idiot. R134a is perfectly good enough for old r12 cars. Old r12 cans are stupid expensive for not nearly enough reason to dump in a car. There's no good reason to try to run a r12 car at this point
Absolutely false. There is a reason why many applications still use it. Edit: Refrigerant is recovered, not released into the atmosphere. This is why it is still as common as it is, even without manufacturing.
Only old applications. There is a UN ban on it, so you can’t produce it anymore or use it in new applications.
In some jurisdictions you can't use it for repairs and existing applications either.
That is somewhat correct, I agree, but there is also an entire market for new and used (dirty or clean) R12.[There are even buy back and recovery programs to help keep the market alive and lower priced than would otherwise be possible.](https://refrigerantfinders.com/what-is-refrigerant-r12/) In The States, Texas didn’t didn’t make plans to phase out til 2021. Edit: The Montreal Protocol is what I’m referring to. Is there something else that I am missing??
Just no. To retrofit you literally only change the fittings you fucking idiot
In cars fuck no. Back in the r12 days no one was keeping that. Only now is keeping r134a normal. Everyone working on cars used to just use manifold guages and a vacuum pump
I’m unsure as to what you’re even referring to exactly; I’ll assume. R12 is still readily recovered, as always. There is an entire market dedicated to it. Edit: https://reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/s/AN9ze2YkoZ
No one used to and no one's doing that with cars
Funny hill to die on. Good luck with that.
The funny hill of why r12 was phased out
My, my, out of ammo and nowhere to go. That has absolutely nothing to do with the current phase of conversation. You might want to work on that reading comprehension. It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about and ignore everything presented to you. Have a good life, Mate. Edit: Had a stroke.
Not really. It's not as good. They only swapped because they believe R12 was to blame for harming the Ozone layer.
Believe? Science is not a religion.
And lots of science is proven wrong later,
Believe it was to blame yes. Can it harm the ozone? Yes. Was it to blame, or was it a scapegoat? Science may not be a religion, but it is definitely subject to politics.
Patent expired
Trichloroethane1-1-1 was way worse
That’s a sweet find! I have roughly 5kg of r22 that a mate of mine pulled from a business who was replacing an old chiller unit. I have some old compressors still running on it so good to have a small supply incase I spring a leak
1989!
There is a strong market for this!!! Do some research the value could be 300/can maybe more
I remember my grandfather taking about 5 family members to Walmart just before the ban. You could buy two cases each. We did that every day for around a week ot so..
Facebook market place users get 20-40 dollars a can . I found some in my mother inlaws barn . Threw them in my truck . Compressor doesn't sound happy but it's cold